IRC log of openacs on 2002-06-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

01:00:51 [talli]
talli has quit (Remote closed the connection)
02:08:52 [talli]
talli (~talli@pool-162-83-234-57.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs
02:27:56 [mbr]
paje, run!
02:27:56 [paje]
* paje runs for his dear life
02:28:04 [mbr]
paje again!
02:28:05 [paje]
* paje spanks talli
02:44:32 [talli]
i'm installing netbsd
02:45:01 [talli]
in the past week, i have gone from gentoo, to debian, to mandrake, to debian, to redhat, to debian and now netbsd
02:45:14 [talli]
debian has been the easiest to use and maintain, but i like the ports system
02:45:23 [talli]
and my friend has brainwashed me with netbsd propoganda
02:45:28 [talli]
so i'm going to try it out
02:45:41 [talli]
either way, i am learning a whole lot more about unix than i probably should
02:49:57 [docwolf]
docwolf (~wolf@adsl-32-221-35.bct.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs
02:51:33 [talli]
go away! go away!
02:52:02 [docwolf]
muahahaha
02:52:48 [docwolf]
nostalgia, eh?
02:55:06 [docwolf]
hmm
02:55:10 [docwolf]
looks like the red wings won
02:58:21 [talli]
is that good or bad?
02:58:30 [docwolf]
good for detroit.
02:58:37 [docwolf]
the city is such a hole, the people deserve something
02:59:14 [docwolf]
detroit is third-world, without the international charm.
03:03:16 [talli]
the red wings are like the yankees of hockey
03:03:19 [talli]
it's totally rigged
03:03:25 [talli]
i didn't much like the sport before
03:03:36 [talli]
with that crap, i certainly don't care abou tit
03:03:38 [docwolf]
dude.. it's epic mullet mania
03:03:49 [talli]
i don't like baseball becuase of the yankees either
03:06:22 [docwolf]
i'm not fond of baseball any more either.
03:06:29 [docwolf]
mainly b/c of the spoiled players.
03:06:45 [docwolf]
and mike piazza's facial hair is disturbing.
03:14:23 [talli]
davb: you around?
04:17:02 [denshi]
hello all
05:43:50 [denshi]
anyone awake?
06:29:48 [hazmat]
barely
06:46:05 [denshi]
paje, get hazmat some coffee
06:46:05 [paje]
denshi: what?
06:46:10 [denshi]
paje, get hazmat some coffee dammit!
06:46:11 [paje]
denshi: excuse me?
06:50:19 [denshi]
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992403
06:50:19 [oacs-chump]
A: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992403 from denshi
06:50:36 [denshi]
A|: Honeybees double coffee yields
06:50:43 [denshi]
A:| Honeybees double coffee yields
06:50:43 [oacs-chump]
titled item A
06:51:04 [denshi]
A: bees => coffee; coffee => honey
06:51:04 [oacs-chump]
added comment A1
07:17:46 [hazmat]
good stuff
10:48:57 [davb]
davb has quit ("Client Exiting")
11:39:52 [davb]
davb (~chatzilla@rrcs-nys-24-97-22-204.biz.rr.com) has joined #openacs
11:40:01 [davb]
hi there
12:04:13 [bduell]
bduell (~bduell@gowron.nca.asu.edu) has joined #openacs
12:04:37 [bduell]
hello all
12:16:50 [davb]
good morning
12:57:33 [markd2phylax]
morning
12:59:12 [denshi]
oom
12:59:18 [davb]
hi denshi and markd2phylax
13:17:49 [markd2phylax]
markd2phylax is now known as WOrkiephylax
13:17:59 [WOrkiephylax]
WOrkiephylax is now known as Wookiephylax
13:18:43 [docwolf]
morning
13:18:56 [denshi]
yes, yes it is
13:20:58 [shagster]
cd
13:21:02 [shagster]
Heh...
13:22:40 [Wookiephylax]
* Wookiephylax cds into /bin
13:22:50 [Wookiephylax]
mkdir bath
13:22:56 [Wookiephylax]
cd /bath
13:32:39 [bduell]
bduell has quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)")
13:39:39 [talli]
denshi: did you see paul graham's latest article?
13:40:09 [talli]
it should sit on the front page of the oacs website
13:40:45 [denshi]
let me get my coding pants on
13:41:32 [denshi]
revenge of the nerds?
13:42:08 [talli]
yeah
13:42:11 [talli]
revenge of the nerds
13:42:14 [denshi]
http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html
13:42:14 [oacs-chump]
B: http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html from denshi
13:42:31 [denshi]
B:| Revenge of the Nerds
13:42:31 [oacs-chump]
titled item B
13:42:48 [denshi]
B: So here we have two pieces of information that I think are very valuable. In fact, I know it from my own experience. Number 1, languages vary in power. Number 2, most managers deliberately ignore this. Between them, these two facts are literally a recipe for making money.
13:42:48 [oacs-chump]
added comment B1
13:43:25 [talli]
b: warning: he craps on all languages not lisp, especially python
13:43:44 [talli]
but it's great
13:44:43 [denshi]
I admire that he wrote 2 of the 5 LISP texts that every LISPer has, and after working on it for years and years say "okay, it still sucks"
13:45:39 [denshi]
someone on comp.lang.lisp was joking that one of the LISP vendors should adopt the slogan: "Use Lisp! It sucks less!"
13:46:45 [davb]
hi talli
13:48:36 [talli]
hey davb
13:48:47 [talli]
denshi: is a macro equivalent to a library or a class?
13:49:30 [denshi]
neither
13:49:42 [denshi]
a macro is a source translator
13:49:48 [talli]
??
13:50:35 [denshi]
you can do things like write the "for" statement in a macro that translates the "for" statement into some ifs and progns
13:50:44 [talli]
ah, very cool
13:50:55 [denshi]
in non-sexp languages, you have to rewrite the compiler to do that
13:51:07 [talli]
so you can rewrite the language according to your needs
13:51:08 [talli]
that's nice
13:51:32 [talli]
although what is so different between that and a class?
13:51:39 [denshi]
apparently most LISPers use it to write a domain specific language for the project they're working on, then write in that
13:51:52 [denshi]
how can you do that with a class?
13:51:59 [denshi]
very different concepts
13:52:01 [talli]
isn't that roughly passing it to a class with a collection of ifs and whiles etc
13:52:04 [talli]
?
13:52:13 [denshi]
no
13:52:36 [denshi]
but I have trouble seeing where you're coming from and I'm not sure I can explain it today
13:52:53 [denshi]
something you *can* analogize to is Tcl's upvar
13:53:28 [denshi]
since you can write a macro that write into the calling context/scope, you can introduce variable there
13:53:52 [denshi]
which you can't do in a function, b/c a function call introduces new scope
13:54:12 [denshi]
unless you've got a hackish runtime like Tcl, and can call upvar
13:59:06 [rbm]
oom
13:59:29 [denshi]
ppn
14:01:40 [Wookiephylax]
so sleepy
14:03:01 [talli]
wow. the netbsd irc room is a bunch of grumpy fucker
14:03:11 [talli]
fuckers, that is, for you keeping score at home
14:03:15 [docwolf]
dude, they're all sexually frustrated.
14:03:49 [docwolf]
talk about unhip, "hi baby, yeah, i work on software.. No, it's not Linux, it's sort of like linux, but less popular.. umm..."
14:04:15 [Wookiephylax]
:)
14:05:25 [rbm]
docwolf: nice article on Walmart shipping computers with Lindows
14:05:41 [docwolf]
haha. thanks.. i'm surprised newsforge took my submission.
14:05:41 [talli]
there's a good chance i will be banned from the netbsd room soon
14:06:03 [docwolf]
roblimo usually ignores me.
14:06:48 [denshi]
is this one conversation or two?
14:07:03 [talli]
docwolf: i don't ignore you!
14:07:06 [talli]
i just pity you
14:07:20 [rbm]
docwolf: It's really interesting. I'd like to see if LindowsOS lives up to its promises.
14:07:24 [rbm]
can one download it?
14:07:47 [docwolf]
talli: pity me? i'm living large! (cut to scene of docwolf tying noose around neck)
14:08:43 [denshi]
* denshi writes a funereal dirge for the dead coderz
14:08:49 [denshi]
paje, dance!
14:08:49 [paje]
* paje shakes his booties
14:11:08 [denshi]
where's the docwolf article?
14:12:10 [denshi]
talli: quote from the .jp trans of graham' paper: ênh“Lc_
14:12:20 [rbm]
http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/06/14/1316203.shtml?tid=23
14:12:20 [oacs-chump]
C: http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/06/14/1316203.shtml?tid=23 from rbm
14:12:47 [denshi]
adam is now going by tina?
14:12:51 [rbm]
C:|Wal-Mart selling ultra-cheap PCs with LindowsOS pre-installed (submitted to newsforge by our own docwolf)
14:12:52 [oacs-chump]
titled item C
14:12:57 [rbm]
brb
14:13:15 [docwolf]
tina.. hmm... i guess i could...
14:13:27 [docwolf]
no, i submitted the story to tina this morning. i didn't think she'd take it
14:13:30 [docwolf]
roblimo denied me.
14:13:37 [docwolf]
(over at slashdot..)
14:14:46 [denshi]
slashdot is busy fighting a tiny war with the trolls; they can't take news!
14:16:07 [denshi]
i have this mental image of slashdot administration policy being set at a table with a couple of cloth maps and several 20-sided dice
14:16:46 [davb]
heh
14:17:38 [docwolf]
haha
14:18:07 [talli]
slashdot has many Anal Shades
14:18:20 [davb]
oh my
14:20:10 [davb]
http://www.skippingdot.net/2002/06/13
14:20:11 [oacs-chump]
D: http://www.skippingdot.net/2002/06/13 from davb
14:20:21 [davb]
D:|RSS Autogeneration Week
14:20:22 [oacs-chump]
titled item D
14:20:40 [talli]
it's this week!?!?
14:20:42 [davb]
D: using RSS to fling information aboiut, it's not just for news anymore
14:20:42 [oacs-chump]
added comment D1
14:20:45 [talli]
damn!?!?!
14:21:07 [davb]
anyway its a cool idea.
14:21:33 [talli]
i must have totally missed that announcement since i was so busy pouring over the perl6 apocolypses
14:21:48 [talli]
do these people have families?
14:21:52 [talli]
do they have friends?
14:21:54 [davb]
taking information from all over an organization, and outputting it in RSS. then give everyone an rss reader (or a web-based, openacs one) and information magically appears on their desk.
14:22:14 [talli]
do they have at least imaginary aliens they can communicate with?
14:22:19 [davb]
the cool part is saving it and letting people search it. luckily penacs uses a database and has fancy full text search
14:22:30 [davb]
talli: the last one
14:22:59 [davb]
wow
14:23:00 [talli]
yeah, i bet they communicate with the aliens via RSS and RDF. but telekinnetically
14:23:04 [davb]
D: " Basically, though, we've put a scheduling engine and a SQL query interface together to allow users -- IT users, analysts, not the end-user / reader -- to write and schedule SQL queries on any ODBC datasource in the enterprise."
14:23:04 [oacs-chump]
added comment D2
14:28:21 [abbaJ]
abbaJ (~jabba@adsl-64-217-72-95.dsl.austtx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs
14:31:27 [markd2]
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14:32:13 [Wookiephylax]
* Wookiephylax backs up this machine
14:32:19 [denshi]
ambabrakdj2!
14:32:50 [davb]
is there any good writing on why the openacs "unified" data model is better than a huge mass of unrealted perl scripts or something?
14:33:04 [davb]
I "know" its better, but I was curious how to explain it to a normal human :)
14:33:14 [talli]
i think playboy had an expose on it a couple of months ago
14:33:16 [davb]
hi markd2
14:33:19 [talli]
or perhaps it was vanity fair
14:33:24 [denshi]
I know I've scribbled out things on that topic before
14:33:26 [davb]
talli: un, thanks
14:33:37 [talli]
i think dominic dunne wrote it
14:33:54 [denshi]
maybe I could try to find all that and pull it together into something authoritative
14:34:14 [talli]
ask gore vidal. he might help
14:34:29 [denshi]
" OpenACS is an amazingly well thought-out application server for collaborative web apps. Out of the box, it has modules for ecommerce, bulletin boards, calendars, content management, and many more. For what's not *in* the box, extension is easy because of the very well designed database schema. By tying a new application to core relations such as acs_objects or users, you can get permissions, subsites, and auditing for free. Big wins on both
14:34:54 [markd2]
hello
14:34:54 [paje]
hey, markd2
14:35:08 [talli]
at elast not out of the box
14:35:08 [davb]
talli!
14:35:13 [denshi]
try focusing on things you get for free, by referencing relations that are a part of the more general workflow
14:35:26 [davb]
cool.
14:35:32 [markd2]
* markd2 thinks out of the box
14:35:50 [denshi]
* denshi cuts a glory hole in markd2's box
14:35:51 [talli]
talli is cold and afraid in the box
14:36:00 [denshi]
A
14:36:02 [denshi]
A:
14:36:02 [oacs-chump]
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992403
14:36:03 [oacs-chump]
Honeybees double coffee yields
14:36:04 [oacs-chump]
(1:denshi) bees => coffee; coffee => honey
14:36:22 [denshi]
* denshi goes to get some coffee
14:41:23 [davb]
thanks denshi
14:41:31 [markd2]
thanks honey
14:41:37 [markd2]
* markd2 thanks honey
14:44:19 [docwolf]
hey, what's the deal?
14:44:24 [docwolf]
that loser taco rejects my story
14:44:26 [docwolf]
and runs it anyway.
14:44:56 [markd2]
'cause he's l4m3
14:48:22 [davb]
http://features.slashdot.org/features/02/06/14/1343223.shtml?tid=166
14:48:22 [oacs-chump]
E: http://features.slashdot.org/features/02/06/14/1343223.shtml?tid=166 from davb
14:48:39 [davb]
E:|AntiVirus companies manufacture fear
14:48:39 [oacs-chump]
titled item E
14:51:33 [davb]
talli: check this out http://doc.weblogs.com/2002/06/14#jabberingContd
14:51:51 [davb]
jabber guy talking about using jabber for xcal notifications, you may already know this :)
14:52:00 [talli]
yeah, i've heard about that
14:52:18 [talli]
xcal is a bit controversial because the ical folks have removed it from the spec
14:52:32 [talli]
so everyone that wants to use xcal sort of has to make up their own
14:53:29 [davb]
ick
14:56:42 [talli]
yeah, but there is a basic xcal definition, so it's not that bad
14:56:55 [talli]
but maybe i;m thinking abotu CAP which has rejected xcal
15:06:27 [denshi]
docwolf: he's beyond lame
15:12:26 [rbm]
docwolf: the wal-mart story is on top of /. now
15:12:39 [docwolf]
i saw
15:12:55 [docwolf]
"commander taco, you've made a powerful enemy today"
15:12:57 [docwolf]
:-)
15:13:09 [davb]
http://radio.weblogs.com/0100789/2002/06/09.html#a157
15:13:09 [oacs-chump]
F: http://radio.weblogs.com/0100789/2002/06/09.html#a157 from davb
15:13:10 [denshi]
slashdot is also crashing right now
15:13:10 [paje]
okay, denshi.
15:13:14 [davb]
F:|Death to blogs
15:13:14 [oacs-chump]
titled item F
15:13:25 [markd2]
behold the power of mysql
15:14:36 [davb]
http://radio.weblogs.com/0100887/2002/06/13.html#a300
15:14:36 [oacs-chump]
G: http://radio.weblogs.com/0100887/2002/06/13.html#a300 from davb
15:14:57 [davb]
G:|Jon Udell: Extreme design versus extreme programming
15:14:57 [oacs-chump]
titled item G
15:16:13 [davb]
F: "We might be better of by talking about dynamic Web publishing, personal content management, etc. and explore these technologies in various kind of ways."
15:16:13 [oacs-chump]
added comment F1
15:16:40 [davb]
http://www.usq.edu.au/electpub/e-jist/docs/html2002/chtu_frame.html
15:16:40 [oacs-chump]
H: http://www.usq.edu.au/electpub/e-jist/docs/html2002/chtu_frame.html from davb
15:16:46 [davb]
H:|Online Learning Community
15:16:46 [oacs-chump]
titled item H
15:20:26 [denshi]
denshi has quit ()
15:21:42 [denshi]
denshi (~chatzilla@cs6625176-26.austin.rr.com) has joined #openacs
15:29:12 [davb]
http://www.truerwords.net/2186
15:29:12 [oacs-chump]
I: http://www.truerwords.net/2186 from davb
15:29:32 [davb]
I:"A true real power behind Conversant is it's abilty to operate in several different modes. Mailing list, newsgroup, web browser, XML newsfeeds, all of these modes allow people to interoperate without regard to their tool of choice. "
15:29:32 [oacs-chump]
added comment I1
15:29:40 [davb]
I: openacs needs this type of power
15:29:41 [oacs-chump]
added comment I2
15:33:29 [talli]
uhm, openacs needs to work first
15:33:48 [talli]
the plugin modules will be the *least* important part of the project
15:34:01 [talli]
building an infrastructure in the core that can manage all that stuff is a good idea
15:34:22 [talli]
but building tools around it that do it "out of the box" isn't as importna
15:34:25 [talli]
important
15:35:46 [davb]
talli: what do you mean by it needs to work? what infrastructure is missing?
15:36:24 [talli]
it still sucks, to be honest.
15:36:29 [davb]
heh
15:36:40 [talli]
what currently exists is what was inherited from aD
15:36:44 [talli]
which is not so hot
15:36:45 [davb]
true.
15:36:54 [talli]
it just works on pg and oracle now
15:36:56 [talli]
which is nice
15:37:02 [davb]
ok, good points.
15:37:06 [talli]
but the core needs a lot of design cleaning
15:37:33 [davb]
you are right. we need a roadmap of where the core will go. the release is all but done. don just needs to actually do it. so where do we go now?
15:37:39 [talli]
adn i think if people become obsessed with making out of the box solutions, the app will never get done
15:37:46 [davb]
true.
15:38:04 [talli]
the community should focus on building a hardcore and sweet core that people can build on top of
15:38:12 [davb]
I am willing to jump in and improve the core. I like denshi's idea of defining the basic opeartions that we need.
15:38:26 [davb]
hmmm.
15:38:33 [davb]
we need an OpenACS 5 design bboard :)
15:38:38 [talli]
true enough
15:38:39 [denshi]
wait, I wasn't listening. is there a bagel involved?
15:38:45 [davb]
nope
15:38:49 [denshi]
damn
15:39:21 [davb]
if denshi tells me what stuff he things is absolutely necessary in the openacs core, and what can do, i will eat a bagel.
15:39:26 [davb]
hows that?
15:39:37 [davb]
maybe we should move this to the bboard.
15:39:38 [denshi]
* denshi kicks davb
15:39:46 [davb]
or we could just have a secret meeting.
15:39:50 [denshi]
are our ideas even vaguely well-formed yet?
15:39:54 [davb]
okay, i'll fedex you a bagel.
15:39:56 [davb]
not mine.
15:40:02 [talli]
i've got a good idea for a new pizza
15:40:07 [talli]
i might have it for lunch
15:40:12 [talli]
it's vaguely well formed
15:40:14 [davb]
that is, my ideas are not formed yet.
15:40:35 [davb]
where are all the hackers?
15:41:04 [denshi]
chopping wood?
15:41:19 [denshi]
talli: is it round?
15:41:55 [talli]
like a sphere]
15:42:04 [davb]
hollow or solid?
15:42:16 [denshi]
how can you bake a spherical pizza?
15:42:16 [davb]
or is that in you stomach after you eat it?
15:43:12 [davb]
good point, the crust has to be in contact with the heat source.
15:43:57 [bduell]
bduell (~bduell@gowron.nca.asu.edu) has joined #openacs
15:44:17 [davb]
denshi: perhaps posting to the bboard would encourage other people to think about this stuff too, so we don't have to do all the work.
15:44:31 [denshi]
davb: do you have specific points yet?
15:44:36 [davb]
no, none at all :)
15:44:49 [denshi]
it would be good to provide something to accrete discussion around
15:44:50 [davb]
just tallis vauge notion that it needs work.
15:45:11 [davb]
basically I am just doing this to avoid working
15:45:39 [denshi]
ha!
15:45:50 [davb]
shit
15:46:05 [davb]
i have a crashing application in winxp and i can't get the task manager to show any tasks.
15:46:25 [denshi]
PULL THE PLUG
15:46:26 [davb]
got it
15:46:56 [denshi]
here's my quote for the day
15:47:11 [denshi]
<sybariten> i just spoke to my teacher, he said i should try and stay off the lambda functions
15:47:18 [davb]
heh
15:47:20 [denshi]
<denshi> punch him and steal his lunch money
15:47:36 [davb]
even better
15:47:47 [denshi]
that convo is happening now. I think he's working on the punching part
15:48:27 [davb]
davb has changed the topic to: OpenACS: Free Web Application Toolkit
15:49:20 [denshi]
denshi has changed the topic to: "OpenACS: Less Popular Than Jesus"
15:49:26 [davb]
oh good
15:49:33 [davb]
what are we more popular than?
15:49:41 [markd2]
ebola, maybe?
15:50:20 [denshi]
denshi has changed the topic to: "OpenACS: Less Popular Than Jesus. <davb> what are we more popular than? <markd2> ebola, maybe?"
15:50:23 [davb]
curse you mardk2, I am getting hundreds of searchs for domokun and kittens now.
15:50:28 [davb]
denshi nooooo!
15:50:30 [davb]
no <> in the title
15:50:34 [davb]
topic i mean
15:50:40 [denshi]
why not?
15:51:27 [denshi]
denshi has changed the topic to: "OpenACS: Less Popular Than Jesus"
15:51:29 [davb]
the XSLT barfs on them
15:51:34 [davb]
:)
15:51:43 [davb]
I am asking aaronsw about that problem.
15:52:18 [markd2]
sorry about that
15:54:12 [davb]
no problem. If I wasn't lazy, i would debug it
15:54:43 [davb]
somewhere in the XSLT the &lt;s are turned into real <> and there is not closing <markd2> tag
15:55:05 [markd2]
* markd2 is a closet <markd2> tag
15:55:08 [davb]
it only happens when it rolls the day I think. then it grabs the topic to title the page.
15:55:48 [davb]
the swhack weblog works ok: http://blogspace.com/swhack/weblog/2002/05/24/
15:56:38 [davb]
ok, i'll debug it, its better than working
16:00:29 [Wookiephylax]
What's a quick and painless way to configure a printer in Linux?
16:00:31 [denshi]
davb: i want to hear your oacs5 ideas
16:00:38 [Wookiephylax]
Do they have some sort of a graphical tool for this?
16:00:41 [davb]
denshi: as soon as I have some :)
16:01:04 [davb]
Wookiephylax: some linuxes have a graphical tool. i don't know of a generic one.
16:01:16 [davb]
xslt: an even more brain dead lisp than tcl
16:01:50 [denshi]
davb: drink more coffee.
16:02:13 [davb]
to generate the ideas?
16:02:14 [denshi]
for the ideas
16:02:38 [davb]
ok
16:03:48 [davb]
argh
16:04:13 [davb]
davb has changed the topic to: OpenACS: Less Popular Than Jesus. <davb> what are we more popular than? <markd2> ebola, maybe?
16:04:23 [davb]
ok, now to debug
16:05:52 [talli]
talli has quit (Remote closed the connection)
16:09:24 [davb]
I wonder if talli was referring to weaknesses in the default admin UI, or in the core tcl and pl/[pg]sql apis
16:09:50 [davb]
hmm
16:09:55 [davb]
weird the xslt worked this time.
16:10:10 [davb]
i wonder when it broke last time <denshi> was in the topic
16:10:57 [davb]
actually i think it was the rebuilding of the index to the archived pages that broke.
16:11:15 [davb]
oh, well, worst case, i fix it tomorrow :)
16:12:00 [davb]
ok OpenACS 5 ideas. look at every package that is allegedy part of openacs-core and see if it really needs to be in there.
16:12:20 [davb]
make sure every package and tcl proc produces valid XHTML
16:12:42 [davb]
make sure every core package uses tempalting and the form builder consistently
16:12:53 [davb]
BTW don's new ad_form is really cool.
16:13:24 [davb]
this is all "cosmetic" stuff. it needs to be done, but doesn't affect the core datamodels and apis.
16:15:03 [davb]
possibly simplify the parties/persons/etc model and the permissions model
16:16:34 [rbm]
davb: You should write these down in a more permanent way then the chat logs, then point us to a URL so we can discuss and add back :)
16:17:46 [davb]
I am just whipping stuff out right now. later I'll write it coherently
16:17:56 [rbm]
These are all great ideas.
16:18:03 [rbm]
I'd be even up to implementing some of this.
16:20:21 [rbm]
Crap, everything in the ecommerce package is hard-wired for credit card payments
16:23:33 [davb]
yes. I ripped out large hunks of it when I tried to do paypal in openacs 3.x
16:24:00 [rbm]
137,138,139, and I think you need both. Try only UDP first. If it doesn't work, allowsn TCP as well
16:24:04 [rbm]
ooops
16:24:18 [davb]
here is a good thread:
16:24:20 [davb]
http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0004OP&topic_id=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Design&topic=12
16:24:20 [oacs-chump]
J: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0004OP&topic_id=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Design&topic=12 from davb
16:24:40 [davb]
J: Lars Pind: And while we're at it, I also agree with him that the content repository is created upside down. What we really need from the content repository is a central place to store title, description, and other generic info that you need for site-wide search or a "what's new" page. Instead of the kludgy acs_object.name() function, which has to do dynamic SQL to figure out something as banal as the name of an object.
16:24:40 [oacs-chump]
added comment J1
16:25:12 [davb]
J:|OpenACS.org bboard thread discussing the acs-object model in OpenACS 4
16:25:12 [oacs-chump]
titled item J
16:32:07 [talli]
talli (~chatzilla@pool-162-83-234-57.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs
16:32:14 [davb]
ah there he is
16:32:23 [talli]
denshi: did you read that paul graham article?
16:32:32 [denshi]
oh yes
16:32:39 [talli]
it's good, isn't it?
16:32:45 [denshi]
indeed
16:32:46 [davb]
talli: are you dissatisfied with the stop openacs admin interface, or the core tcl and pl/[pg]sql apis?
16:32:54 [davb]
talli where have you been?
16:33:10 [davb]
we discussed this already :)
16:33:13 [talli]
i don't know anything about the core tcl and pgplsql apis
16:33:20 [talli]
i friggin hate the admin interface
16:33:23 [talli]
it's pathetic
16:33:26 [davb]
ok. true
16:33:28 [davb]
100%
16:33:34 [talli]
as luke said, the guy who built that interface should be strung up
16:33:38 [davb]
but generally "easy" to fix if we can get someone to do it.
16:33:52 [davb]
but we need a good idea of how we want to to work.
16:34:02 [davb]
I say we take up a collection and hire lars to do it. :)
16:34:19 [davb]
I had a good idea.
16:34:27 [talli]
i think lars is working on some docs for standard UI development
16:34:30 [davb]
the admin interface should be another package
16:34:47 [davb]
that hooks into the parts of the core packages.
16:35:59 [davb]
someone needs to write down, what the functions of the admin UI need to be. so we can organize how it will work.
16:36:15 [alltelsucks]
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16:37:03 [alltelsucks]
alltelsucks is now known as markd2
16:37:25 [markd2]
alltel--
16:38:53 [denshi]
what we have here is a failure to communicate
16:41:40 [rbm]
I'm interested in this Graham's article and also the programming languages link that davb (?) posted yesterday.
16:42:05 [davb]
fun stuff.
16:42:31 [rbm]
Are the blogs in thedesignexperience.org?
16:42:51 [rbm]
paje: chump?
16:42:51 [paje]
chump is a bot that keeps track of URLS, the logs can be found at http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog/
16:42:55 [rbm]
paje: I love you
16:42:55 [paje]
rbm: excuse me?
16:44:40 [davb]
rbm: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog/
16:44:54 [davb]
oh, heh, paje to the rescue
16:45:03 [rbm]
Why should I read something done by the designer of Visual Basic?
16:46:22 [davb]
which one?
16:46:22 [paje]
hmmm... which one is evil again?
16:50:31 [rbm]
It's in the tabernacle square
16:50:37 [rbm]
crap
16:50:45 [borkware]
borkware (~Snak@h166-102-041-117.ip.alltel.net) has joined #Openacs
16:50:50 [rbm]
The Jon Udell thingy
16:51:10 [borkware]
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16:51:15 [davb]
oh, i read everything :)
16:53:17 [davb]
actually that is not as cool as I thought anyway
16:53:26 [denshi]
wait... evil, tabernacle square, visual basic... huh?
16:54:09 [rbm]
the tabernacle square was a mispost on my part
16:54:10 [rbm]
:)
16:55:13 [talli]
rbm: have you designed anythign yet?
16:55:39 [rbm]
talli: Yes.
16:55:46 [denshi]
funny bit of wierdness; a friend of mine did a bunch of the control code in that tabernacle
16:56:43 [markd2]
that's spelled right
16:56:52 [markd2]
as is tabernacle
16:56:54 [talli]
rbm: you've designed a language and published a few books?
16:57:05 [rbm]
talli: I never designed a language, but I've seen the design of many languages and the VB design sucks.
16:57:37 [rbm]
I don't have to be a civil engineer who designed several bridges to tell that a bridge that fall apart horribly had a bad design.
16:57:38 [talli]
ok, you qualify
16:57:41 [denshi]
i've designed a language!
16:57:45 [denshi]
but it sucks....
16:57:56 [markd2]
I designed a bridge. but it sunk...
16:58:07 [rbm]
s/fall/fell
16:58:28 [talli]
do you mind writing to him and telling him that?
16:58:49 [rbm]
talli: Would you mind telling us your point?
16:58:58 [denshi]
wtf are you guys talking about?
16:59:11 [talli]
also, do you mind writing to him and asking him to first tell people why he's worthwhile?
16:59:17 [rbm]
talli didn't like my comment about the VB designer.
16:59:54 [talli]
it's not that i didn't like it
16:59:57 [talli]
i could care less
17:00:07 [talli]
it's just that it was really lame
17:00:12 [rbm]
no ti wasn't
17:00:17 [talli]
sure it was
17:00:23 [rbm]
fine then
17:00:37 [talli]
you don't have as much experience as him
17:00:39 [rbm]
You probably meant "I couldn't care less" no?
17:00:49 [rbm]
and?
17:00:51 [talli]
you haven't even read the reference yet
17:00:57 [rbm]
which reference?
17:01:00 [talli]
but it has to be bad because vb sucks
17:01:04 [talli]
the article
17:01:12 [rbm]
I didn't say the article was bad. I never did.
17:01:22 [talli]
no, but the author is a dolt
17:01:28 [talli]
because he can't design languages
17:01:42 [rbm]
All I said was "Why should I read something done by the VB designer?"
17:01:48 [talli]
little do you know how much the article aligns with all the rants you've made in this channel
17:02:18 [rbm]
I haven't read it yet, and I think I will
17:02:36 [talli]
although, you'll read it under protest because VB sucks
17:03:06 [rbm]
talli: I don't really think you're capable of reading my mind yet.
17:03:23 [davb]
woah talli, lay off the hi-octane
17:03:24 [shagster]
* shagster doesn't have a mind to read :->
17:03:25 [talli]
i am reading what you post here
17:03:25 [davb]
:)
17:03:27 [rbm]
so unless you can and unless I say it, you can't say that I'll read it under protest.
17:03:52 [davb]
rbm: jon udell usually has some interesting stuff to say.
17:04:14 [shagster]
How about I read and provide cliff notes? :)
17:04:32 [talli]
this is paul graham
17:04:34 [talli]
whoops
17:04:37 [rbm]
This is pointless.
17:04:51 [talli]
i thoguth we were talking about the paul graham article
17:04:57 [talli]
i don't know about the jon udell shit
17:05:04 [rbm]
You should read what people post before venting on them.
17:05:09 [shagster]
Paul Graham? Capt Lisp?
17:05:36 [rbm]
Paul Graham didn't design VB.
17:05:42 [shagster]
* shagster is confused now
17:05:47 [talli]
the article is much less about lisp than about programming language
17:05:50 [talli]
languages
17:05:53 [denshi]
goddamn it, people!
17:05:57 [talli]
but my argument still stands
17:05:57 [davb]
heh
17:05:59 [rbm]
I'm NOT talking about the Paul Graham article
17:06:07 [talli]
yeah, sorry bout that
17:06:07 [denshi]
declare your freakin' pronouns before fighting about them!
17:06:09 [shagster]
I've seen two people mentioned what article are we talking about ?
17:06:13 [davb]
now this is like a "real" IRC channel
17:06:15 [talli]
i thought you were referencing that
17:06:25 [rbm]
* rbm wanders off
17:06:42 [talli]
either way, there are plenty of people that would say, "why should i listen to someone from oacs? they use tcl"
17:06:50 [shagster]
* shagster beats head against wall
17:06:59 [davb]
hehe
17:07:08 [shagster]
* shagster . o ( that feels better )
17:07:09 [talli]
shagster: go for the nuts!
17:07:32 [shagster]
Heh
17:09:31 [denshi]
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=34229&cid=3702536
17:09:31 [oacs-chump]
K: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=34229&cid=3702536 from denshi
17:10:16 [denshi]
K: /. Microsoft to implement "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" security initiative
17:10:16 [oacs-chump]
added comment K1
17:12:00 [davb]
mental note: run virus scan on CD masters before sending to be duplicated.
17:17:36 [davb]
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17:18:18 [davb]
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17:18:35 [docwolf]
* docwolf returns with asbestos suit. I like Delphi, anyone have a problem with that?
17:25:04 [davb]
heh
17:25:11 [davb]
its not as good as VB
17:25:33 [davb]
I actually can get work done in VB now. its not exactly fun, but it works/
17:33:10 [shagster]
Bah, I haven't had to do wi
17:33:13 [shagster]
*grr*
17:33:33 [shagster]
Bah, I haven't had to do Windows programming in quite a while
17:33:48 [shagster]
And the list time I did, I used TCLPro :->
17:38:36 [davb]
yes, i would not choose to do vb programming "for fun"
17:39:23 [markd2]
I predict we'll have someone with postgres trigger questions arriving soon
17:39:31 [Jako]
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17:39:48 [denshi]
jako!
17:39:54 [Jako]
hey there, i heard you guys were good with postgres
17:40:08 [Jako]
i need some help
17:40:20 [Jako]
hey there denshi
17:40:59 [Jako]
i need to create a trigger in postgres but dunno how, to do it
17:41:11 [denshi]
paje, attack!
17:41:11 [paje]
* paje bites Mark's ankle
17:41:15 [markd2]
ow!
17:41:36 [denshi]
did you try in #postgresql?
17:41:53 [Jako]
is there a post channel?
17:42:33 [davb]
check the postgresql interactive documentation. you can search it. very handy.
17:42:50 [denshi]
basically, you have to define a function and then create the trigger to execute that function
17:42:54 [davb]
http://www.postgresql.org/idocs/
17:42:54 [oacs-chump]
L: http://www.postgresql.org/idocs/ from davb
17:42:55 [denshi]
two code bodies, you see
17:43:03 [Jako]
yeah, i checked that, but not what i'm looking for
17:43:41 [davb]
try this: http://www.postgresql.org/idocs/index.php?plpgsql-trigger.html
17:43:58 [davb]
it shows how to create a pl/pgsql procedure and use it as a trigger.
17:44:10 [docwolf]
docwolf has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:45:18 [denshi]
anyone know S/ML?
17:52:55 [talli]
talli has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.7 [Mozilla rv:1.0.0/20020529]")
18:17:41 [davb]
http://www.x-entertainment.com/
18:17:42 [oacs-chump]
M: http://www.x-entertainment.com/ from davb
18:19:03 [davb]
M: including: Thundercats, HOOOO!: http://www.x-entertainment.com/messages/599.html
18:19:03 [oacs-chump]
added comment M1
18:24:24 [davb]
hey cool. rush actually bought rush.com and setup and annoying multimedia web site
18:37:10 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. If you haven't had a chance, please take a look at http://somegeek.org/status.html (updated today). The site will be pretty overloaded but persist if you can. Thanks.
18:47:01 [markd2]
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19:20:27 [davb]
http://www.geekissues.com/quotes/?1096
19:20:27 [oacs-chump]
N: http://www.geekissues.com/quotes/?1096 from davb
19:20:33 [davb]
N: :)
19:20:33 [oacs-chump]
added comment N1
19:22:33 [rbm]
paje: seen Wookiephylax
19:22:33 [paje]
Wookiephylax was last seen on #openacs 3 hours, 21 minutes and 54 seconds ago, saying: Do they have some sort of a graphical tool for this? [Fri Jun 14 11:00:57 2002]
19:22:56 [Jako]
Jako has left #openacs
19:23:28 [mbr]
wow
19:23:38 [mbr]
Don't I feel like a retard
19:23:47 [mbr]
paje seen rbm
19:23:48 [paje]
rbm was last seen on #openacs 1 minutes and 14 seconds ago, saying: paje: seen Wookiephylax [Fri Jun 14 14:22:51 2002]
19:24:57 [mbr]
i forgot how to make a matrix out of two arrays
19:25:00 [mbr]
someone kill me
19:25:24 [mbr]
Very scary thought
19:33:13 [davb]
bbl
19:33:15 [davb]
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20:08:38 [k2pts]
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20:08:53 [mbr]
anyone know how to make a matrix out of 2 arrays?
20:09:39 [denshi]
a cross product?
20:09:49 [mbr]
well, I have this
20:10:15 [mbr]
I have 3 fields in a web form...1 drop down combo box and 2 text fields
20:10:35 [mbr]
I have to populate them with stuff out of the database
20:11:02 [mbr]
I make my query and get a recordset which has name,serialnumber, location
20:11:51 [k2pts]
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20:11:52 [mbr]
now, I need to somehow be able to get the serial number and name out when the drop down selection of location changes
20:12:09 [mbr]
I think using an ASP array would work
20:12:25 [mbr]
but I killed my braincells responcible for remembering arrays
20:13:08 [mbr]
I thought I would need a FieldArray and a RecordArray
20:13:49 [denshi]
isn't this a hash table of [name,serialnumber] tuples keyed on location?
20:14:55 [mbr]
You could look at it that way but I'm not sure ASP has hash tables
20:15:58 [bduell]
I would use lists instead.
20:17:16 [mbr]
list of lists?
20:17:22 [bduell]
right.
20:17:50 [mbr]
Does ASP have lists?
20:18:07 [mbr]
I know nothing about ASP thus the dumb questions :)
20:18:50 [bduell]
I thought so.
20:19:40 [bduell]
(I mean - I thought there were lists. Not that you didn't know anything about ASP) :)
20:19:53 [mbr]
:)
20:20:07 [mbr]
w3schools has a variables section
20:20:14 [mbr]
and there's only variables and arrays
20:20:44 [denshi]
why are we talking about ASP?
20:20:53 [mbr]
because I have to code ASP
20:21:29 [denshi]
take it over to #seppuku
20:21:37 [mbr]
what's there?
20:21:37 [paje]
there is a package for emacs somewhere and its built into mozilla now.
20:22:15 [mbr]
Ahhhhhhhhhh!
20:22:19 [mbr]
* mbr saw a ghost
21:48:03 [mbr]
dave?
21:48:04 [paje]
i heard dave was back
21:51:14 [rbm]
mbr?
21:51:14 [paje]
hmmm... mbr is Master Boot Record or one of the many Psychephylax's alter egos
22:13:45 [bduell]
bduell has quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)")
22:19:43 [mbr]
brb
22:38:27 [mbr]
hmmm
22:40:42 [rbm]
hmmmm
22:42:12 [mbr]
me fiddles with Linux