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01:16:22 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  We're back with the old services database while we continue to look for the problem in the corrupted database.  We'll keep you posted.
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01:36:10 <davb> hello
01:38:06 <davb> wow, sounds like someone is doing some intereesting stuff  with openacs, xotcl, and xml
01:45:19 <davb> kinda slow
01:55:26 <davb> bye
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04:10:32 <rbm> Weird... I was disconnected.
04:13:19 <denshi> huge, misshapen netsplit earlier
04:14:30 <rbm> oh
04:14:37 <rbm> what did I miss?
04:30:01 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  Looks like we may have the corrupted database substantially repaired.  I'm going to upload it and put it into service, and we'll need to know if you spot any problems.  Thanks.
04:37:57 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] About ready to try the database.  Shutting down the old one.
04:41:17 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Okay all.  We have restored the services database we've attempted to correct, and believe it to be substantially whole.  If you have any problems or inconsistencies, please check with us on #openprojects.  Thanks.
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06:33:27 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  It looks like we've finally driven a stake through the heart of those repropagating klines.  Looking very good at this point.
06:34:09 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Services should be current at this point and as we slowly recover we should be missing the lag, which I think was internally-generated.
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13:09:24 <abbaJ> anyone alive?
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15:25:52 <docwolf> yo
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17:37:36 <denshi> ooom
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18:02:06 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  If haven't had a chance, please take a look at http://somegeek.org/status.html (last updated today).  The site will be a bit overloaded.  Thanks.
18:13:45 <denshi> bork!
18:16:14 <markd2> yö
18:18:21 <denshi> how go things in borkware-land?
18:18:51 <markd2> things going well
18:19:03 <markd2> no real income yet, but I'm workin' on it
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18:23:55 <denshi> hello bduell
18:24:10 <bduell> how's it going?
18:25:17 <denshi> slowly
18:27:16 <denshi> mark, do you know anything about Qt on OSX?
18:28:04 <markd2> nope
18:31:33 <denshi> mark, I mean, bork, I want to steal all your web page art
18:35:17 <markd2> save up $50, and get the "Art Explosion 125,000" from your local MicroCenter
18:35:19 <markd2> it so totally rocks
18:56:46 <rbm> denshi: Qt works on Mac OS X. You just have to purchase a license.
18:57:05 <markd2> I'll stick with Nextstep^H^H^H^H^H Cocoa
18:58:03 <denshi> I'll stick with cross-platform
18:58:15 <denshi> get more than those 25 guys running X
18:58:24 <denshi> s/X/OSX/
18:58:37 <markd2> whatever floats your boat
18:58:50 <rbm> Qt is actually pretty nice.
18:58:58 <rbm> I haven't looked at cocoa though.
18:59:05 <markd2> I looked at it long and hard a  couple of years ago
18:59:13 <markd2> it's pretty nice, especially compared to GTK
19:02:12 <denshi> they wrapped in some GUI construction tools in 3.0
19:02:21 <denshi> they're screen-licking good
19:02:32 <markd2> code generation?  or do they serialize objects?
19:03:39 <denshi> translate than for a non-GUI guy
19:03:48 <denshi> s/than/that/
19:04:02 <markd2> you edit the UI.  Does it generate reams of code to create the windows, position the UI objects, etc
19:04:21 <markd2> or does it actually manipulate objects (or resources), which are then loaded at runtime
19:04:40 <markd2> Most java gui builders do the code generation
19:04:49 <markd2> the mac and windows world tend to do the latter
19:05:06 <denshi> with the slot/signal bits, I think it does code generation
19:05:10 <denshi> brb- coffee
19:05:42 <markd2> * markd2 isn't a big fan of code generation
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19:17:22 <rbm> AFAIK you take a .ui file saved from the Qt gui builder and run through a processor to give you the code.
19:17:44 <markd2> cool
19:17:47 <markd2> does it retain any edits to the code?
19:17:52 <markd2> (that's my main beef with code generators)
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20:12:48 <rbm> * rbm moos from work
20:13:05 <docwolf> anyone want to evaluate this
20:13:06 <docwolf> http://www.dli-security.com/
20:13:06 <oacs-chump> A: http://www.dli-security.com/ from docwolf
20:13:13 <docwolf> what do you think?
20:13:32 <docwolf> useful? useless? something in between?
20:13:54 <denshi> sounds useful
20:14:00 <denshi> but I've never heard of them
20:14:07 <denshi> get an evaluation copy and play around
20:14:11 <docwolf> just wondering.. i'm no sysadmin
20:14:31 <docwolf> would these tools if they worked as advertised be useful to a linux admin?
20:14:37 <denshi> then that would make it more useful :)
20:15:01 <denshi> most sysadmins have the same functionality accreted through years of perl/shell scripting
20:15:08 <docwolf> my first impression is that ... these tools are closed-source.  what linux admin would want this on his system?
20:15:23 <docwolf> i mean, how can you verify the security of the very packages that are supposed to keep you secure?
20:15:27 <docwolf> (did that make sense?)
20:15:27 <denshi> is the admin you?
20:15:38 <docwolf> hehe. hardly.
20:16:04 <denshi> some other admins could tell you what tools they use now
20:16:09 <docwolf> i just thought this package looked a little bit strange; i mean, what does it do that built-in userspace unix apps can't.
20:16:09 <denshi> I got out of that racket
20:16:48 <denshi> huh
20:16:51 <denshi> you're right
20:17:05 <docwolf> i'm trying to look at hte package objectively...
20:17:17 <docwolf> one interesting this is that it looks like it allows you to use 1 common login, and copy it to a bunch of machines
20:17:52 <denshi> "GUARDIAN" sounds like NIS + logging
20:18:04 <docwolf> "
20:18:05 <docwolf> Supports NIS and NIS+ environments
20:18:05 <docwolf> "
20:18:20 <docwolf> "    * 
20:18:20 <docwolf>       A user-friendly menu program in both a Motif-based GUI (coupled with on-line help) and a character-based interface. 
20:18:20 <docwolf>     * 
20:18:20 <docwolf> Use command line interface with script files to perform any menu program function, which can be run without operator intervention"
20:18:26 <denshi> suGUARD sounds like straight sudo
20:18:41 <denshi> I think this is mostly a nice GUI
20:18:55 <docwolf> thats what i was thinking when i was reading suGUARD
20:18:59 <docwolf> it looks exactly like suDO
20:19:31 <docwolf> as for the audit stuff...
20:19:39 <docwolf> how is that normally done in linux?
20:20:10 <rbm> what sort of auditing?
20:20:18 <docwolf> http://www.dli-security.com/ag.htm
20:20:18 <oacs-chump> B: http://www.dli-security.com/ag.htm from docwolf
20:23:37 <rbm> That doesn't tell me anything about what kind of auditing it's supposedly doing
20:24:17 <docwolf> i think that these tools, as far as i can tell, just put a pretty face on the traditional UNIX security system, thus making it easier for mortals to manage effectively
20:24:31 <docwolf> easier to manager -> less staff -> cost savings
20:25:09 <denshi> less staff, not less skilled staff
20:25:45 <docwolf> right.  if it can reduce headcount of even 1 person withour a reduction in security, it's worth something.
20:25:45 <denshi> usually the flow is easier to manage -> moronic staff -> short-term cost savings -> earnings crucified on our own downtime
20:26:02 <rbm> docwolf: There are a gazillion free graphical front'ends for the tools this Antiguard thing supposedly is for.
20:26:11 <denshi> in that case, I would ask the admins what would help them out
20:26:19 <docwolf> this is why i don't think this product is entirely useful
20:26:33 <docwolf> most security problems in UNIX land are social, not due to bad design (a la windows)
20:26:34 <denshi> two votes, useless
20:26:41 <denshi> case closed
20:26:44 <denshi> let's have a drink
20:27:06 <docwolf> i see what they are trying to do though -- lower the barrier to entry for sysadmins in a UNIX environment.
20:27:44 <denshi> oh sure, oh sure
20:27:48 <docwolf> this will work fine, until the first time the dumbass admin that they decided to keep doesn't patch ssh
20:28:00 <docwolf> then.. p o o f
20:28:46 <denshi> in my opinion, that isn't the biggest problem
20:28:47 <docwolf> in theory, though, it's a nice idea.  make unix administration easier to grok
20:29:11 <denshi> the big problem is getting admins who know what they are doing
20:29:42 <rbm> docwolf: in theory, most ideas are nice :)
20:29:53 <docwolf> denshi: agreed 100%.  but think about what is happening in corporate computing
20:30:00 <denshi> a couple years ago the company I was at contracted some indepenent admin guys to free me up for development
20:30:12 <docwolf> linux/unix is actually making inroads, but the number of really good sysadmins isn't advancing as quickly
20:30:17 <denshi> they seemed talented, and they were certainly eager
20:31:06 <docwolf> uh oh.. there's a "but" coming..
20:31:17 <denshi> damn, I can't remember my vocab today
20:31:32 <denshi> what's the user catalog system replacing NIS?
20:32:05 <denshi> anyway, they set that up on the servers in a totally fubared fashion
20:32:08 <rbm> LDAP?
20:32:13 <denshi> there you go
20:32:44 <denshi> things would have been fine, except that they didn't check how the user control flowed across servers
20:32:54 <denshi> so the dev team was locked out
20:33:06 <denshi> I had to haul ass to SJ and fix it myself
20:33:29 <denshi> and the way the kids responded to inquiries to that led to their removal
20:33:40 <denshi> that was long-winded
20:33:52 <docwolf> i got the point. :-)
20:34:04 <docwolf> humans are the critical link in any system.
20:34:08 <denshi> but my experience there was that these kids (I think they might have been older than me) learned tools in a controlled environment
20:34:35 <denshi> they didn't learn to reverse-engineer a running network and integrate with it successfully
20:34:46 <denshi> maybe pretty tools get you halfway
20:34:49 <denshi> maybe they don't
20:36:03 <docwolf> you think corporations will buy this tool, though, as a way to get a handle on linux/unix deployment?
20:36:19 <docwolf> if shops are moving from NT -> Linux 
20:36:59 <docwolf> obviously, you'd love to have some pale, bearded/unclean hacker wizard in the basement who knows everything about system administration, but failing that,
20:37:09 <denshi> I get the feeling you're not a customer but a potential investor/employee
20:37:11 <docwolf> i wonder if this may be a useful adjunct for many corporations.
20:37:25 <docwolf> hehe.  a friend asked me to take a look. 
20:37:33 <rbm> denshi: docwolf is using the MBA side of his brains
20:37:37 <denshi> just sounds like due diligence
20:37:49 <denshi> rbm: I didn't know that was kept in the brain
20:37:55 <rbm> s/brains/brain/
20:37:59 <docwolf> oh my. 
20:38:34 <denshi> doc, when did you get an MBA?
20:38:35 <docwolf> my sense is that this product is addressing a perceived marketplacen need:  the need to dumb down linux admin to the NT level
20:38:51 <docwolf> 2000
20:39:10 <denshi> you're so stealthy it's unhealthy
20:39:30 <docwolf> heh
20:40:22 <docwolf> anyway, i don't agree that this product is the best way to do sysadmin.  but now that linux has become a buzzword, and middle managers are starting to use it for cost and security reasons, products like this may become viable.
20:40:48 <cro> Well, from an admin that does both W2K and Linux, it sometimes is hard to remember all the commands.  And I've been a huge Unix advocate since college.  It would be nice to have a reliable GUI.
20:41:13 <denshi> all parties are correct on that point
20:41:44 <docwolf> cro: tell me more.  if you could have a reliable GUI wrapper around the tools you know and love, would you use them in your workplace?
20:41:45 <denshi> in the other camp, I really wish that windows would find a place to put hardware management and just fscking leave it there
20:42:11 <cro> I probably would.
20:42:36 <rbm> docwolf: There are such wrappers already. Just install KDE.
20:42:38 <docwolf> would the closed-source angle scare you?  from what i gather on this company's site, these tools don't look open.  and there are of course licensing fees...
20:42:48 <cro> Closed-source, yes it would scare me.
20:43:02 <cro> Probably wouldn't go there.
20:43:06 <docwolf> rbm:  are there rappers that do what these products claim to do?  I use mandrake, i don't remember seeing some of this stuff.
20:43:16 <cro> I've not tried Webmin, but it seems to be the "market" leader.
20:43:30 <rbm> docwolf: this product doesn't seem to do anything good, really.
20:43:57 <rbm> (that is not already been done that is)
20:43:59 <docwolf> rbm: that's what i'm trying to figure out;  is there a free equivalent already built in to linux
20:45:36 <rbm> What would be _really_ good is if the Prodigy NOW project got funding to get off the ground.
20:45:42 <cro> docwolf: wouldn't that be webmin?
20:46:00 <docwolf> so far,  i can't think of any KDE utility that would let me make an account on a single box, let me share it across multiple boxen, control which hosts it's good on, etc..
20:46:38 <rbm> docwolf: That URL that you passed me says nothing about this product doing this either.
20:46:55 <docwolf> http://www.dli-security.com/gd.htm
20:46:56 <oacs-chump> C: http://www.dli-security.com/gd.htm from docwolf
20:48:00 <docwolf> that sort of functionality could be incredibly useful, if you work in a place with lots of boxen.  again, i'm ignorant of all the standard unix admin tools to know whether or not this already exists.
20:48:08 <rbm> docwolf: There's another product that does that... I remember seeing it on Linuxworld 99
20:48:24 <rbm> docwolf: All this already exists.
20:48:32 <rbm> But probably not with a pretyy face
20:48:58 <docwolf> rbm: ok,  so this is unique in that it is pretty, and gives the admin a real gui to work with.
20:49:18 <rbm> A friend of mine just set this all up with LDAP and a few other free tools. I asked him to share his notes, which he will.
20:49:33 <rbm> docwolf: No, it's not unique. There are other products that give this pretty face.
20:49:52 <docwolf> rbm: but are they free, or do they require a license?
20:50:05 <rbm> and I won't say it has a "real" gui until I see it.
20:50:26 <rbm> docwolf: the one I saw at linuxworld was proprietary
20:50:27 <docwolf> the reason i ask is b/c i need to approach this from an investors point of view.  If there are free tools that already do the same thing as well, then this is going nowhere.
20:50:32 <docwolf> ok, cool.
20:51:49 <docwolf> the other thing is... if this is just a pretty face to standard unix security functions and features (LDAP, NIS, etc..)  then these guys could have trouble in the long-run keeping ahead of other companies
20:52:17 <docwolf> so.. if they aren't doing anything 'unique' security-wise, beyond providing an intuitive GUI, they may hit real trouble down the road.
20:52:35 <docwolf> .. since we all know cloning interfaces ain't that hard to do.
20:53:04 <rbm> docwolf: I'd say do a search on freshmeat and sourceforge. There probably are such projects to do that out there.
20:53:37 <docwolf> the problem with freshmeat & sourceforge is that most project are half-finished, and some are of very poor quality.
20:53:57 <docwolf> and i'm guessing if there was a free equivalent that was really good & widely deployed, we would have heard about it by now.
20:54:14 <docwolf> ('we' = collective wisdom of this chat room)
20:55:04 <docwolf> most corporations don't feel comfortable taken half-finished stuff from freshmeat & using it widely.  
20:55:13 <docwolf> (wolf bioscience, excepted, of course ;-) )
20:58:13 <denshi> wolf bioscience still registering on the EKGs?
20:58:22 <rbm> docwolf: Then go ahead and buy all the stock of that company.
20:59:34 <docwolf> rbm: i'm not saying that this company will necessarily be a winner, but i think they may have hit on a market niche.
20:59:45 <rbm> docwolf: corporations prefer taking 1/3-finished stuff with a phone number with voice mail attached that the'll never get a response from.
20:59:45 <docwolf> denshi:  we haven't flatlined yet
21:00:14 <rbm> docwolf: oh, and pay lots for the 1/3-finished stuff
21:01:03 <rbm> I see this tendency for paying a lot of money for crap. I've considered making some crap of my own to sell.
21:01:31 <denshi> make crap, rbm!
21:01:57 <rbm> docwolf: BTW, I'm not saying that this company doesn't have a good product, nor that the idea isn't good.
21:02:24 <docwolf> rbm: right, i just want to know if they have a unique value proposition.. i think they might.
21:02:50 <docwolf> we may find these GUI admin tools distasteful, and perhaps not '1337',  but i have a feeling that corporate america wants stuff like this for their linux boxen
21:03:23 <docwolf> i'm not sure this company's tools in particular are any good, but if this is indeed a niche, i can see others jumping in
21:05:29 <rbm> docwolf: I think this particular company is the one jumping in. This company I saw at Linuxworld 99 had tools that managed Linux, Solaris and Windows 2000 boxen from the same console, and managed samba too.
21:05:42 <rbm> Enlighten T think is what they called the product.
21:05:50 <rbm> s/T/I/
21:06:19 <rbm> by "console" I mean a graphical interface
21:08:48 <docwolf> cool
21:42:40 <rbm> Cool, a friend of mine wrote an icq2irc gateway
21:45:08 <denshi> I found the great IRC quote database
21:45:20 <denshi> http://www.geekissues.org/quotes/?4278
21:45:20 <oacs-chump> D: http://www.geekissues.org/quotes/?4278 from denshi
21:56:14 <cro> cro has left #openacs
22:08:53 <bduell> bduell has left #openacs
23:47:49 <Psychephylax> wooooo
23:47:58 <Psychephylax> paje, you're a party animal!
23:48:00 <Psychephylax> paje?.
23:48:02 <Psychephylax> paje? 
23:48:08 <Psychephylax> Where are you paje?
23:54:38 <denshi> Psychephylax, you stand accused of corrupting paje
23:55:06 <denshi> but that was in another country, and the bot is dead