00:48:19 <lethedrinker> star wars rocked
01:13:28 <davb> hi all
01:15:11 <davb> slashdot: were you referring to me, or the other people who were working on etp2?
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01:23:49 <davb> hi vinod, the_docwolf
01:23:56 <vinod> hey davb 
01:27:22 <davb> argh
01:27:32 <davb> will someone please hack email reply into the bboards?
01:32:10 <the_docwolf> davb: don't waste your breath.
01:32:15 <the_docwolf> i have been asking for that hack
01:32:19 <the_docwolf> since before i was at arsdigita.
01:32:24 <the_docwolf> (1999?)
01:34:28 <davb> wow
01:34:40 <davb> ok, i guess i'll put it on my list...
01:35:01 <vinod> * vinod steps out of the way to make room for davb's list
01:39:57 <davb> darn, it looks like i need a seperate service-contract for every content type in ETP. So when someone wants to add a new type, they need to write another contract implementation
01:40:34 <vinod> for search?
01:40:39 <davb> yes
01:40:46 <davb> left that part out :)
01:40:50 <vinod> ouch - that seems like overkill
01:41:38 <davb> the search package looks for an implementation for the object type. I was thinking of a default implementation for a parent type, and if there isn't a specific one for a type, it looks up the parent type to see if that has one.
01:43:24 <vinod> that sounds like a good plan - is that supported?
01:43:38 <davb> not yet
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02:18:23 <Psychephylax> roll call!
02:18:23 <paje> I'm here!
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11:04:26 <jim> what's a gatekeeper?
11:24:43 <davb> in the openacs.org sense?
11:36:56 <jim> yeah
11:52:14 <davb> i guess they are the guys who keep it going. because we don't have a formal organization to drive openacs. 
11:55:34 <jim> tried running .lrn under postgres...
11:55:47 <jim> nope, got errors...
12:00:08 <jim> will look into them later, but for now, waiting for the finals (next week) when I want to get into openacs more
12:00:21 <jim> well, after the finals :)
12:00:53 <jim> back a little later...
12:01:17 <Psychephylax> morning
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12:40:28 <davb> hi
12:40:29 <paje> bonjour, davb
13:34:51 <Psychephylax> hey dave
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15:10:40 <rbm> morning all
15:10:45 <cro> hi rbm
15:11:09 <rbm> hi cro
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15:35:30 <talli> hey guys
15:38:37 <rbm> hey talli, what's up?
15:39:17 <talli> hey rbm 
15:39:18 <talli> not much
15:39:21 <rbm> How do I find out what different branches are available on a CVS project?
15:39:37 <talli> i wrote up an initial design spec for Momentum. rather, the beginnings of a draft
15:39:41 <rbm> cool
15:39:50 <talli> there's an initial roadmap, and a very basic architecture description
15:40:23 <talli> i'll send it over
15:45:31 <denshi> hey, talli
15:46:54 <rbm> Hmmm, can one download openmsg somewhere?
15:47:01 <talli> hey denshi
15:47:19 <cro> cro has left #openacs
15:47:20 <talli> denshi: i sent the Momentum text to you too
15:49:03 <denshi> yeah, i got it
15:49:13 <denshi> you should fix one thing
15:50:03 <denshi> in (4), you have " - Make Momentum multi-threaded "
15:50:25 <talli> what's wrong with that?
15:51:36 <denshi> in implementation, that translates to "rewrite a motherfuckload of code to keep globals in arrays, and take them as parameters to functions instead of yanking them from the environment"
15:51:59 <denshi> so it's much better to emphasize that in (1) or (20
15:52:04 <denshi> er... (2)
15:52:16 <talli> ok
15:53:21 <denshi> i'm trying to figure out how to phrase it
15:53:37 <talli> i was hoping that it would just mean that the application would be built on the APR
15:53:56 <talli> as that seems to solve the multi-threaded C server problem
15:54:00 <talli> at least, it purports to
15:55:14 <denshi> hmmm...
15:55:39 <rbm> why does momentum has to be multithreaded?
15:55:44 <rbm> s/has/have/
15:56:18 <denshi> APR is a good framework, and some good multithreaded apps have been built on it.  but you can still write non-threadsafe code with it.
15:56:53 <denshi> I mean, there's no way in C to constructively forbid non-threadsafety.
16:08:38 <denshi> to give an example
16:09:11 <talli> christ almighty, alt.postmodern is funny
16:09:19 <talli> it really is truly post-modern
16:09:33 <talli> it's full of people doubting science
16:09:39 <talli> and suicidal freaks, of course
16:10:10 <talli> one such freak just posted about how the hypocricy of the world is driving him to chug beer in front of his television
16:10:13 <denshi> lemme get my usenet browser on
16:11:04 <talli> the best discussions are when people begin to argue about things like the second law of thermodynamics
16:11:07 <denshi> oh god, this is like the counter-Kibo group
16:11:32 <talli> it's like gourmet counter-kibo
16:12:07 <denshi> if you haven't noticed yet, alt.religion.kibology is fueled by cross posting replies into groups generating stupid comments
16:12:26 <denshi> alt.postmodern is cross posting stupid comments into other groups
16:12:42 <denshi> if a.m and a.r.k met, they could destroy the net
16:12:52 <talli> haha
16:13:16 <talli> i don't understand how people connect quantam physics iwth post-modernism
16:13:28 <talli> just becuase quantam physics is weird doesn't mean it's post-modern
16:13:45 <denshi> too many drugs in college
16:13:58 <talli> like, the terms quantam and meta don't implicitly mean that they are deserving of wharhol apostle's attention
16:14:30 <denshi> oh, and being schooled in a liberal arts tradition which contends that everything falls under literary analysis
16:15:14 <talli> uh oh
16:15:36 <talli> some guy is arguing that java has solved the problem of dividing by zero
16:15:40 <talli> "I think the most elegant way of handling handling division by zero is the
16:15:40 <talli> one used in e. g. the Java programming language: to throw an exception. "
16:16:01 <talli> just throw up your hands and say, "sorry, can't do it! means nothing to me"
16:16:48 <talli> i'm sure newton would agree. it would have made creating calculus so much easier
16:17:19 <denshi> okay, enough crap
16:28:10 <djg> djg has quit ("BitchX-75p3 -- just do it.")
16:29:29 <talli> denshi: where is kibo?
16:29:29 <paje> kibo is truly a god
16:29:34 <talli> has he taken a vacation?
16:29:48 <denshi> no idea.  I haven't been reading
16:30:08 <talli> kibo seems to have left for a bit
16:35:25 <denshi> http://www.gameforms.com/news/0205/16/ff11probs.html
16:35:25 <oacs-chump> A: http://www.gameforms.com/news/0205/16/ff11probs.html from denshi
16:35:44 <denshi> A: Square in the process of learning that server apps are *hard*
16:35:44 <oacs-chump> added comment A1
16:40:25 <talli> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/25324.html
16:40:25 <oacs-chump> B: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/25324.html from talli
16:40:47 <talli> B: rumors that AOL will ditch IE in favor of Mozilla/Gecko
16:40:48 <oacs-chump> added comment B1
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17:07:23 <rbm> Anybody else has the LinuxFund card here?
17:16:51 <talli> rbm: no, is it cool?
17:17:40 <rbm> talli: Yeah. A little less than 1% of your expenses go to linuxfund.org, which issues grants and scholarships
17:17:58 <rbm> It's funny that MBNA (the LinuxFund card issuer) keeps bumping my credit line even though I always pay my balance in full every month. I'm up to $14,000 now.
17:18:05 <rbm> And they gave me Platinum status a few months ago.
17:19:03 <talli> whoa
17:19:14 <talli> i may get a LinuxFund card for Musea
17:19:25 <talli> makes sense that we're an open source company
17:19:31 <talli> might as well support open source projects
17:20:08 <rbm> Apparently they have 6,000 card members currently, with Linus being one of them.
17:23:14 <talli> nice
17:23:33 <talli> i met one of the guys that is on the board of linuxfund
17:23:41 <rbm> I got the card back in 1999, when they first started
17:23:44 <talli> he;s part of the Portland Linux Users Group
17:23:47 <talli> very cool guy
17:23:53 <talli> he was at the Portalnd OACS Social
17:23:55 <rbm> Something Cox, right?
17:24:00 <talli> hmmm... maybe
17:24:02 <talli> i forget
17:24:06 <talli> perhaps. First name Dave
17:24:09 <rbm> http://www.linuxfund.org/news/tribune/index.html
17:24:09 <oacs-chump> C: http://www.linuxfund.org/news/tribune/index.html from rbm
17:26:14 <talli> no, not him
17:26:17 <talli> lemme get his name quickly
17:26:29 <talli> i know that Don offered to give an OACS demo, but in the fall
17:27:10 <talli> David Mandel
17:27:11 <talli> http://www.davidmandel.com/
17:27:11 <oacs-chump> D: http://www.davidmandel.com/ from talli
17:27:28 <talli> davb_: Home page of David Mandel. I met him at the Portland OACS social. Very cool guy
17:28:31 <talli> whoops
17:28:39 <talli> i hate how my friggin' irc client does that
17:28:47 <talli> hold on, lemme find out how to fix it
17:29:49 <talli> D: Home page of David Mandel. I met him at the Portland OACS social. Very cool guy
17:29:49 <oacs-chump> added comment D1
17:44:00 <rbm> * rbm heads to campus
17:48:47 <shagster> lalala
17:49:49 <talli> hey shagster
17:49:52 <talli> i just sent you an email
17:50:16 <shagster> Talli, Yea I'm just digesting it now
17:51:10 <shagster> A quick things that jumps out, do you want AOLserver bindings?
17:51:24 <talli> YES!
17:51:27 <talli> and apache too
17:51:52 <talli> one of the things in the CAP specification is that difference between a server and a client isn't totally clear
17:51:59 <talli> really, they're talkign about p2p stuff
17:52:05 <shagster> Hmm, Okay. Have to make sure things are threadsafe then.  Shouldn't be a problem but I"m making a checklist of things to check/question to ask
17:52:09 <talli> which is what BEEP was built for
17:52:21 <talli> yeah, threadsafe is crucial
17:52:49 <talli> as far as the CAP/BEEP stuff, i think the idea may be that we want to keep Momentum very small and lean
17:52:55 <shagster> Got anybody leading the lib charge yet?
17:53:08 <talli> that way one can install it on PDAs or whatever
17:53:11 <talli> lib charge?
17:53:21 <shagster> Digging into libical
17:53:25 <talli> well, actually, we're going to merge with the libical project
17:53:38 <talli> so Momentum will be tied very closely to libical
17:53:56 <talli> i imagine that many of their hackers will be helping out, at least with the libical clean up
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17:54:04 <talli> also, Gary has begun looking at that stuff
17:54:32 <talli> since Momentum will be small, for transports other than BEEP we should have bindings to other servers
17:54:48 <talli> so that if you want to do iCal over HTTP, use Apache or AOLserver as the front end
17:55:20 <shagster> Okay, kewl.
17:55:44 <shagster> This ties into a project I might be doing (I'
17:55:57 <shagster> ve been going throuhg libical the past few days)
17:58:26 <talli> very cool!
17:58:28 <talli> what do you think?
17:58:44 <shagster> It looks like a good start....
17:59:39 <shagster> I was looking at *grr* java bindings (I can't believe I actually admitted to that)
17:59:47 <talli> haha
18:00:03 <talli> well, there are python bindings in libical now, but they are apparently out of date
18:00:15 <talli> in the roadmap, i think i mention that is part of the first phase
18:00:20 <talli> to clean up those bindings
18:00:50 <shagster> It looks fairly "bindable" so I really don't think it should be to hard to tie it into most languages
18:01:00 <talli> no
18:01:22 <talli> as far as making the server threadsage, denshi mentioned earlier in the day that we should make that a priority earlier in the proejct
18:01:43 <talli> from what i understand, the original authore of libical took pains to make libical somewhat amenable to thread safety
18:02:11 <talli> also, i've been advocating the use of the Apache Portable Runtime which purportedly provides a headstart in writing threadsafe C libraries
18:02:39 <shagster> Yea, it does.  There are a few areas I need to check, but it ilooks fairly clean
18:04:00 <talli> in the APR or in libical?
18:04:12 <shagster> libical
18:05:17 <talli> cool
18:05:58 <shagster> In fact, might to consider using swig
18:06:15 <shagster> Might help get the binds to quite a few languages
18:07:06 <talli> swig would be nice
18:07:19 <talli> but from what i've been told, it's not the best approach if you're building the app from scratch
18:07:31 <talli> it's more of an application for plugging scripting on top of a legacy C app
18:08:00 <shagster> You can approach a couple of different ways
18:08:41 <shagster> From what I"m see (and I may be off a bit) the library well be seperate for the server a bit
18:09:45 <shagster> You'll have your application in the transport area using various langues talking to a lightweight server
18:10:03 <shagster> They'll just use the same library , correct ?
18:10:24 <talli> well, i understand it as the library sitting in the server, but i may be wrong
18:10:38 <talli> the server parses the iCal data around, which is what i understand libical does
18:10:43 <talli> but i could also be wrong
18:10:53 <talli> but as far as the application stuff, yes, i think you're right
18:11:23 <talli> i suppose Momentum will be "middleware" in cases that do not involve BEEP as the transport layer
18:11:38 <shagster> Yea...okay..hmmm...
18:11:43 <talli> but as far as Momentum being lightweight, yes, i think you're right
18:11:48 <shagster> needs more thinking
18:11:57 <talli> please be aware that i am the wrong person to be deciding on architectural issues
18:12:07 <talli> more or less i'm writing down people's ideas
18:12:24 <talli> if you have suggestions, send 'em my way and i'll incorporate them
18:13:23 <shagster> [to tallie]: Yea, Im just thinking outloud right now
18:13:42 <shagster> I'll digest what I have now over the next few days...
18:14:27 <talli> ok, cool
18:14:41 <talli> i'm going to continue to write things up and send it out as it evolves
18:15:26 <Psychephylax> That was a tasty meal
18:47:13 <denshi> talli, move this into #momentum
18:49:02 <Psychephylax> woohooo
18:49:05 <Psychephylax> My camera is shipped
19:03:51 <talli> denshi: i will
19:06:07 <talli> when i get back
19:06:18 <denshi> denshi has quit (Remote closed the connection)
19:06:19 <talli> shagster: swing by #momentum a bit
19:06:28 <talli> we can discuss those issues there
19:06:32 <talli> gtg now
19:06:38 <talli> talli is now known as talli-away
19:08:05 <denshi_> denshi_ (~chatzilla@cs6625176-26.austin.rr.com) has joined #openacs
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20:28:31 <rbm> entropy: So when can I get that case?
20:33:01 <rbm> errr
20:33:48 <davb_> hi
20:35:10 <denshi> rbm, davb, I'm an idiot
20:35:17 <denshi> or rather, the apache kids are
20:36:53 <denshi> they're all kids!  none of the original 1.x developers are still there... they've never even looked at aolserver
20:37:52 <rbm> * rbm fails to see what denshi is referring to
20:38:24 <denshi> I'm over in #apr talking to some core apache dev guys
20:38:57 <denshi> I'm trying to get them to look at aolserver, b/c the apache2 internals are twisty and confusing like the amazon on a rainy day
20:40:20 <rbm> and? Are they too proud to do so?
20:47:14 <jim> davb_: ayh?
21:08:14 <davb_> i am here for a minute
21:08:15 <denshi> rbm: no, they're just blissfully ignorant.
21:08:19 <denshi> young, like I said.
21:09:44 <rbm> denshi: ah, okay. So why do you say they are all kids?
21:10:03 <rbm> * rbm is reminded of the "ignorance is bliss" in The Matrix
21:10:11 <rbm> s/in/line in/
21:11:02 <davb_> jim: yes
21:12:16 <hazmat> hazmat is now known as bean
21:13:39 <jim> davb_: and still? :) (just got off phone)
21:13:59 <davb_> yes
21:14:53 <davb_> jim: i can finish them this weekend. btw did you give that guy my email?
21:15:08 <jim> sheesh :) gimme a sec...
21:15:24 <jim> I'm sheeshing myself, btw :)
21:15:30 <davb_> np
21:17:17 <talli-away> denshi: are the APR guys script kiddies?
21:17:26 <denshi> they're not that bad
21:17:40 <denshi> i just wish they had read more code before writing so much
21:20:45 <davb_> ok gotta go now. bbl
21:21:08 <jim> umm email? :)
21:21:58 <jim> paje, davb?
21:21:58 <paje> davb is akk ut tajes
21:22:14 <jim> that's not an email :)
21:22:23 <denshi> no, that's urdu
21:22:27 <denshi> paje, urdu?
21:22:28 <paje> denshi: no idea
21:22:50 <denshi> urdu is "the language of love", contends talli and markd2
21:23:13 <jim> why? lots of consonants? :)
21:23:53 <jim> what's his web site addr?
21:25:29 <rbm> Psychephylax: you around?
21:32:16 <jim> davb_: there, sent. he should be emailing you back in a few days.
21:40:54 <talli-away> talli-away is now known as talli
21:41:02 <talli> davb_: you stillhere?
21:41:23 <talli> jim: http://www.thedesignexperience.org
21:41:36 <talli> email: dave@thedesignexpierence.org
21:51:16 <rbm> Just saw this in another channel
21:51:18 <rbm> who | grep -i blonde | date; cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger; mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount; sleep
21:56:14 <rbm> kernel-panic: Se seu kernel ja tem suporte, converta suas particoes para ext3 (tune2fs -j -c 0 /dev/hdxxx), modifique seu /etc/fstab de acordo
21:57:14 <rbm> paje: spank rbm
21:57:15 <paje> rbm: i'm not following you...
21:57:32 <talli> rbm: what happened?
21:57:32 <cro> gasp?
21:57:48 <talli> do you not have any homework to keep your insanity in check?
21:57:53 <rbm> GNU Assembly Processor
21:57:53 <talli> do you need some?
21:58:03 <cro> ah.  Not installed here.  Darn :-)
21:58:06 <rbm> talli: wrong window :)
21:58:11 <talli> haha
21:58:15 <talli> you should fix that
22:00:17 <cro> LOL
22:00:37 <rbm> cro: same here :)
22:15:25 <talli> did you guys notice the post yesterday by the guy who welcomed the OpenACS community to the OpenACS community?
22:16:24 <denshi> was it a typo?
22:20:29 <talli> i think it was more of a crazy freako
22:21:40 <denshi> denshi has quit (Remote closed the connection)
22:22:32 <denshi> denshi (~chatzilla@cs6625176-26.austin.rr.com) has joined #openacs
22:30:54 <rbm> * rbm checks the new ad.com
22:47:38 <talli> talli has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
22:48:50 <cro> cro has quit ("take care all")
22:48:52 <rbm> paje: revive Psychephylax 
22:48:52 <paje> rbm: what?
22:49:02 <rbm> eerrrm
22:49:17 <denshi> dammit rbm, stop with the necromancy
22:50:45 <rbm> :)
23:26:56 <jim> jim has quit ("[x]chat")
23:27:33 <denshi> I can't even describe how fucked up apache is
23:27:37 <denshi> paje, hold me.
23:27:37 <paje> denshi: i'm not following you...
23:43:36 <rbm> denshi: how so?
23:45:25 <denshi> I'll mail you a log later
23:47:22 <rbm> paje: hold me is <action> holds $who
23:47:22 <paje> OK, rbm.
23:47:26 <rbm> paje: hold me
23:47:26 <paje> rbm: sorry...
23:47:30 <rbm> ack
23:47:34 <rbm> paje: hold me?
23:47:34 <paje> rbm: wish i knew
23:47:38 <rbm> crap