IRC log of openacs on 2002-05-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:48:19 [lethedrinker]
star wars rocked
01:13:28 [davb]
hi all
01:15:11 [davb]
slashdot: were you referring to me, or the other people who were working on etp2?
01:19:13 [the_docwolf]
the_docwolf (~wolf@adsl-34-53-191.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs
01:21:29 [vinod]
vinod (~vinod@216-164-248-46.s2776.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs
01:23:49 [davb]
hi vinod, the_docwolf
01:23:56 [vinod]
hey davb
01:27:22 [davb]
argh
01:27:32 [davb]
will someone please hack email reply into the bboards?
01:32:10 [the_docwolf]
davb: don't waste your breath.
01:32:15 [the_docwolf]
i have been asking for that hack
01:32:19 [the_docwolf]
since before i was at arsdigita.
01:32:24 [the_docwolf]
(1999?)
01:34:28 [davb]
wow
01:34:40 [davb]
ok, i guess i'll put it on my list...
01:35:01 [vinod]
* vinod steps out of the way to make room for davb's list
01:39:57 [davb]
darn, it looks like i need a seperate service-contract for every content type in ETP. So when someone wants to add a new type, they need to write another contract implementation
01:40:34 [vinod]
for search?
01:40:39 [davb]
yes
01:40:46 [davb]
left that part out :)
01:40:50 [vinod]
ouch - that seems like overkill
01:41:38 [davb]
the search package looks for an implementation for the object type. I was thinking of a default implementation for a parent type, and if there isn't a specific one for a type, it looks up the parent type to see if that has one.
01:43:24 [vinod]
that sounds like a good plan - is that supported?
01:43:38 [davb]
not yet
01:58:52 [the_docwolf]
the_docwolf has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:18:23 [Psychephylax]
roll call!
02:18:23 [paje]
I'm here!
03:05:47 [vinod]
vinod has quit ("changing universes")
07:21:42 [hazmat]
hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #openacs
10:13:30 [pete_openmsg]
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10:59:57 [slashdot]
slashdot is now known as til
11:04:26 [jim]
what's a gatekeeper?
11:24:43 [davb]
in the openacs.org sense?
11:36:56 [jim]
yeah
11:52:14 [davb]
i guess they are the guys who keep it going. because we don't have a formal organization to drive openacs.
11:55:34 [jim]
tried running .lrn under postgres...
11:55:47 [jim]
nope, got errors...
12:00:08 [jim]
will look into them later, but for now, waiting for the finals (next week) when I want to get into openacs more
12:00:21 [jim]
well, after the finals :)
12:00:53 [jim]
back a little later...
12:01:17 [Psychephylax]
morning
12:39:12 [davb_]
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davb_ is now known as davb
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12:40:28 [davb]
hi
12:40:29 [paje]
bonjour, davb
13:34:51 [Psychephylax]
hey dave
14:24:32 [cro]
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14:32:02 [vinod]
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14:42:33 [pete_openmsg]
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15:10:40 [rbm]
morning all
15:10:45 [cro]
hi rbm
15:11:09 [rbm]
hi cro
15:14:34 [til]
til has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:19:58 [cro]
cro has left #openacs
15:24:51 [til]
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15:35:30 [talli]
hey guys
15:38:37 [rbm]
hey talli, what's up?
15:39:17 [talli]
hey rbm
15:39:18 [talli]
not much
15:39:21 [rbm]
How do I find out what different branches are available on a CVS project?
15:39:37 [talli]
i wrote up an initial design spec for Momentum. rather, the beginnings of a draft
15:39:41 [rbm]
cool
15:39:50 [talli]
there's an initial roadmap, and a very basic architecture description
15:40:23 [talli]
i'll send it over
15:45:31 [denshi]
hey, talli
15:46:54 [rbm]
Hmmm, can one download openmsg somewhere?
15:47:01 [talli]
hey denshi
15:47:19 [cro]
cro has left #openacs
15:47:20 [talli]
denshi: i sent the Momentum text to you too
15:49:03 [denshi]
yeah, i got it
15:49:13 [denshi]
you should fix one thing
15:50:03 [denshi]
in (4), you have " - Make Momentum multi-threaded "
15:50:25 [talli]
what's wrong with that?
15:51:36 [denshi]
in implementation, that translates to "rewrite a motherfuckload of code to keep globals in arrays, and take them as parameters to functions instead of yanking them from the environment"
15:51:59 [denshi]
so it's much better to emphasize that in (1) or (20
15:52:04 [denshi]
er... (2)
15:52:16 [talli]
ok
15:53:21 [denshi]
i'm trying to figure out how to phrase it
15:53:37 [talli]
i was hoping that it would just mean that the application would be built on the APR
15:53:56 [talli]
as that seems to solve the multi-threaded C server problem
15:54:00 [talli]
at least, it purports to
15:55:14 [denshi]
hmmm...
15:55:39 [rbm]
why does momentum has to be multithreaded?
15:55:44 [rbm]
s/has/have/
15:56:18 [denshi]
APR is a good framework, and some good multithreaded apps have been built on it. but you can still write non-threadsafe code with it.
15:56:53 [denshi]
I mean, there's no way in C to constructively forbid non-threadsafety.
16:08:38 [denshi]
to give an example
16:09:11 [talli]
christ almighty, alt.postmodern is funny
16:09:19 [talli]
it really is truly post-modern
16:09:33 [talli]
it's full of people doubting science
16:09:39 [talli]
and suicidal freaks, of course
16:10:10 [talli]
one such freak just posted about how the hypocricy of the world is driving him to chug beer in front of his television
16:10:13 [denshi]
lemme get my usenet browser on
16:11:04 [talli]
the best discussions are when people begin to argue about things like the second law of thermodynamics
16:11:07 [denshi]
oh god, this is like the counter-Kibo group
16:11:32 [talli]
it's like gourmet counter-kibo
16:12:07 [denshi]
if you haven't noticed yet, alt.religion.kibology is fueled by cross posting replies into groups generating stupid comments
16:12:26 [denshi]
alt.postmodern is cross posting stupid comments into other groups
16:12:42 [denshi]
if a.m and a.r.k met, they could destroy the net
16:12:52 [talli]
haha
16:13:16 [talli]
i don't understand how people connect quantam physics iwth post-modernism
16:13:28 [talli]
just becuase quantam physics is weird doesn't mean it's post-modern
16:13:45 [denshi]
too many drugs in college
16:13:58 [talli]
like, the terms quantam and meta don't implicitly mean that they are deserving of wharhol apostle's attention
16:14:30 [denshi]
oh, and being schooled in a liberal arts tradition which contends that everything falls under literary analysis
16:15:14 [talli]
uh oh
16:15:36 [talli]
some guy is arguing that java has solved the problem of dividing by zero
16:15:40 [talli]
"I think the most elegant way of handling handling division by zero is the
16:15:40 [talli]
one used in e. g. the Java programming language: to throw an exception. "
16:16:01 [talli]
just throw up your hands and say, "sorry, can't do it! means nothing to me"
16:16:48 [talli]
i'm sure newton would agree. it would have made creating calculus so much easier
16:17:19 [denshi]
okay, enough crap
16:28:10 [djg]
djg has quit ("BitchX-75p3 -- just do it.")
16:29:29 [talli]
denshi: where is kibo?
16:29:29 [paje]
kibo is truly a god
16:29:34 [talli]
has he taken a vacation?
16:29:48 [denshi]
no idea. I haven't been reading
16:30:08 [talli]
kibo seems to have left for a bit
16:35:25 [denshi]
http://www.gameforms.com/news/0205/16/ff11probs.html
16:35:25 [oacs-chump]
A: http://www.gameforms.com/news/0205/16/ff11probs.html from denshi
16:35:44 [denshi]
A: Square in the process of learning that server apps are *hard*
16:35:44 [oacs-chump]
added comment A1
16:40:25 [talli]
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/25324.html
16:40:25 [oacs-chump]
B: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/25324.html from talli
16:40:47 [talli]
B: rumors that AOL will ditch IE in favor of Mozilla/Gecko
16:40:48 [oacs-chump]
added comment B1
16:43:55 [denshi]
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17:07:23 [rbm]
Anybody else has the LinuxFund card here?
17:16:51 [talli]
rbm: no, is it cool?
17:17:40 [rbm]
talli: Yeah. A little less than 1% of your expenses go to linuxfund.org, which issues grants and scholarships
17:17:58 [rbm]
It's funny that MBNA (the LinuxFund card issuer) keeps bumping my credit line even though I always pay my balance in full every month. I'm up to $14,000 now.
17:18:05 [rbm]
And they gave me Platinum status a few months ago.
17:19:03 [talli]
whoa
17:19:14 [talli]
i may get a LinuxFund card for Musea
17:19:25 [talli]
makes sense that we're an open source company
17:19:31 [talli]
might as well support open source projects
17:20:08 [rbm]
Apparently they have 6,000 card members currently, with Linus being one of them.
17:23:14 [talli]
nice
17:23:33 [talli]
i met one of the guys that is on the board of linuxfund
17:23:41 [rbm]
I got the card back in 1999, when they first started
17:23:44 [talli]
he;s part of the Portland Linux Users Group
17:23:47 [talli]
very cool guy
17:23:53 [talli]
he was at the Portalnd OACS Social
17:23:55 [rbm]
Something Cox, right?
17:24:00 [talli]
hmmm... maybe
17:24:02 [talli]
i forget
17:24:06 [talli]
perhaps. First name Dave
17:24:09 [rbm]
http://www.linuxfund.org/news/tribune/index.html
17:24:09 [oacs-chump]
C: http://www.linuxfund.org/news/tribune/index.html from rbm
17:26:14 [talli]
no, not him
17:26:17 [talli]
lemme get his name quickly
17:26:29 [talli]
i know that Don offered to give an OACS demo, but in the fall
17:27:10 [talli]
David Mandel
17:27:11 [talli]
http://www.davidmandel.com/
17:27:11 [oacs-chump]
D: http://www.davidmandel.com/ from talli
17:27:28 [talli]
davb_: Home page of David Mandel. I met him at the Portland OACS social. Very cool guy
17:28:31 [talli]
whoops
17:28:39 [talli]
i hate how my friggin' irc client does that
17:28:47 [talli]
hold on, lemme find out how to fix it
17:29:49 [talli]
D: Home page of David Mandel. I met him at the Portland OACS social. Very cool guy
17:29:49 [oacs-chump]
added comment D1
17:44:00 [rbm]
* rbm heads to campus
17:48:47 [shagster]
lalala
17:49:49 [talli]
hey shagster
17:49:52 [talli]
i just sent you an email
17:50:16 [shagster]
Talli, Yea I'm just digesting it now
17:51:10 [shagster]
A quick things that jumps out, do you want AOLserver bindings?
17:51:24 [talli]
YES!
17:51:27 [talli]
and apache too
17:51:52 [talli]
one of the things in the CAP specification is that difference between a server and a client isn't totally clear
17:51:59 [talli]
really, they're talkign about p2p stuff
17:52:05 [shagster]
Hmm, Okay. Have to make sure things are threadsafe then. Shouldn't be a problem but I"m making a checklist of things to check/question to ask
17:52:09 [talli]
which is what BEEP was built for
17:52:21 [talli]
yeah, threadsafe is crucial
17:52:49 [talli]
as far as the CAP/BEEP stuff, i think the idea may be that we want to keep Momentum very small and lean
17:52:55 [shagster]
Got anybody leading the lib charge yet?
17:53:08 [talli]
that way one can install it on PDAs or whatever
17:53:11 [talli]
lib charge?
17:53:21 [shagster]
Digging into libical
17:53:25 [talli]
well, actually, we're going to merge with the libical project
17:53:38 [talli]
so Momentum will be tied very closely to libical
17:53:56 [talli]
i imagine that many of their hackers will be helping out, at least with the libical clean up
17:53:57 [cro]
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17:54:04 [talli]
also, Gary has begun looking at that stuff
17:54:32 [talli]
since Momentum will be small, for transports other than BEEP we should have bindings to other servers
17:54:48 [talli]
so that if you want to do iCal over HTTP, use Apache or AOLserver as the front end
17:55:20 [shagster]
Okay, kewl.
17:55:44 [shagster]
This ties into a project I might be doing (I'
17:55:57 [shagster]
ve been going throuhg libical the past few days)
17:58:26 [talli]
very cool!
17:58:28 [talli]
what do you think?
17:58:44 [shagster]
It looks like a good start....
17:59:39 [shagster]
I was looking at *grr* java bindings (I can't believe I actually admitted to that)
17:59:47 [talli]
haha
18:00:03 [talli]
well, there are python bindings in libical now, but they are apparently out of date
18:00:15 [talli]
in the roadmap, i think i mention that is part of the first phase
18:00:20 [talli]
to clean up those bindings
18:00:50 [shagster]
It looks fairly "bindable" so I really don't think it should be to hard to tie it into most languages
18:01:00 [talli]
no
18:01:22 [talli]
as far as making the server threadsage, denshi mentioned earlier in the day that we should make that a priority earlier in the proejct
18:01:43 [talli]
from what i understand, the original authore of libical took pains to make libical somewhat amenable to thread safety
18:02:11 [talli]
also, i've been advocating the use of the Apache Portable Runtime which purportedly provides a headstart in writing threadsafe C libraries
18:02:39 [shagster]
Yea, it does. There are a few areas I need to check, but it ilooks fairly clean
18:04:00 [talli]
in the APR or in libical?
18:04:12 [shagster]
libical
18:05:17 [talli]
cool
18:05:58 [shagster]
In fact, might to consider using swig
18:06:15 [shagster]
Might help get the binds to quite a few languages
18:07:06 [talli]
swig would be nice
18:07:19 [talli]
but from what i've been told, it's not the best approach if you're building the app from scratch
18:07:31 [talli]
it's more of an application for plugging scripting on top of a legacy C app
18:08:00 [shagster]
You can approach a couple of different ways
18:08:41 [shagster]
From what I"m see (and I may be off a bit) the library well be seperate for the server a bit
18:09:45 [shagster]
You'll have your application in the transport area using various langues talking to a lightweight server
18:10:03 [shagster]
They'll just use the same library , correct ?
18:10:24 [talli]
well, i understand it as the library sitting in the server, but i may be wrong
18:10:38 [talli]
the server parses the iCal data around, which is what i understand libical does
18:10:43 [talli]
but i could also be wrong
18:10:53 [talli]
but as far as the application stuff, yes, i think you're right
18:11:23 [talli]
i suppose Momentum will be "middleware" in cases that do not involve BEEP as the transport layer
18:11:38 [shagster]
Yea...okay..hmmm...
18:11:43 [talli]
but as far as Momentum being lightweight, yes, i think you're right
18:11:48 [shagster]
needs more thinking
18:11:57 [talli]
please be aware that i am the wrong person to be deciding on architectural issues
18:12:07 [talli]
more or less i'm writing down people's ideas
18:12:24 [talli]
if you have suggestions, send 'em my way and i'll incorporate them
18:13:23 [shagster]
[to tallie]: Yea, Im just thinking outloud right now
18:13:42 [shagster]
I'll digest what I have now over the next few days...
18:14:27 [talli]
ok, cool
18:14:41 [talli]
i'm going to continue to write things up and send it out as it evolves
18:15:26 [Psychephylax]
That was a tasty meal
18:47:13 [denshi]
talli, move this into #momentum
18:49:02 [Psychephylax]
woohooo
18:49:05 [Psychephylax]
My camera is shipped
19:03:51 [talli]
denshi: i will
19:06:07 [talli]
when i get back
19:06:18 [denshi]
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19:06:19 [talli]
shagster: swing by #momentum a bit
19:06:28 [talli]
we can discuss those issues there
19:06:32 [talli]
gtg now
19:06:38 [talli]
talli is now known as talli-away
19:08:05 [denshi_]
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denshi_ is now known as denshi
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19:38:18 [denshi_]
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20:28:31 [rbm]
entropy: So when can I get that case?
20:33:01 [rbm]
errr
20:33:48 [davb_]
hi
20:35:10 [denshi]
rbm, davb, I'm an idiot
20:35:17 [denshi]
or rather, the apache kids are
20:36:53 [denshi]
they're all kids! none of the original 1.x developers are still there... they've never even looked at aolserver
20:37:52 [rbm]
* rbm fails to see what denshi is referring to
20:38:24 [denshi]
I'm over in #apr talking to some core apache dev guys
20:38:57 [denshi]
I'm trying to get them to look at aolserver, b/c the apache2 internals are twisty and confusing like the amazon on a rainy day
20:40:20 [rbm]
and? Are they too proud to do so?
20:47:14 [jim]
davb_: ayh?
21:08:14 [davb_]
i am here for a minute
21:08:15 [denshi]
rbm: no, they're just blissfully ignorant.
21:08:19 [denshi]
young, like I said.
21:09:44 [rbm]
denshi: ah, okay. So why do you say they are all kids?
21:10:03 [rbm]
* rbm is reminded of the "ignorance is bliss" in The Matrix
21:10:11 [rbm]
s/in/line in/
21:11:02 [davb_]
jim: yes
21:12:16 [hazmat]
hazmat is now known as bean
21:13:39 [jim]
davb_: and still? :) (just got off phone)
21:13:59 [davb_]
yes
21:14:53 [davb_]
jim: i can finish them this weekend. btw did you give that guy my email?
21:15:08 [jim]
sheesh :) gimme a sec...
21:15:24 [jim]
I'm sheeshing myself, btw :)
21:15:30 [davb_]
np
21:17:17 [talli-away]
denshi: are the APR guys script kiddies?
21:17:26 [denshi]
they're not that bad
21:17:40 [denshi]
i just wish they had read more code before writing so much
21:20:45 [davb_]
ok gotta go now. bbl
21:21:08 [jim]
umm email? :)
21:21:58 [jim]
paje, davb?
21:21:58 [paje]
davb is akk ut tajes
21:22:14 [jim]
that's not an email :)
21:22:23 [denshi]
no, that's urdu
21:22:27 [denshi]
paje, urdu?
21:22:28 [paje]
denshi: no idea
21:22:50 [denshi]
urdu is "the language of love", contends talli and markd2
21:23:13 [jim]
why? lots of consonants? :)
21:23:53 [jim]
what's his web site addr?
21:25:29 [rbm]
Psychephylax: you around?
21:32:16 [jim]
davb_: there, sent. he should be emailing you back in a few days.
21:40:54 [talli-away]
talli-away is now known as talli
21:41:02 [talli]
davb_: you stillhere?
21:41:23 [talli]
jim: http://www.thedesignexperience.org
21:41:36 [talli]
email: dave@thedesignexpierence.org
21:51:16 [rbm]
Just saw this in another channel
21:51:18 [rbm]
who | grep -i blonde | date; cd ~; unzip; touch; strip; finger; mount; gasp; yes; uptime; umount; sleep
21:56:14 [rbm]
kernel-panic: Se seu kernel ja tem suporte, converta suas particoes para ext3 (tune2fs -j -c 0 /dev/hdxxx), modifique seu /etc/fstab de acordo
21:57:14 [rbm]
paje: spank rbm
21:57:15 [paje]
rbm: i'm not following you...
21:57:32 [talli]
rbm: what happened?
21:57:32 [cro]
gasp?
21:57:48 [talli]
do you not have any homework to keep your insanity in check?
21:57:53 [rbm]
GNU Assembly Processor
21:57:53 [talli]
do you need some?
21:58:03 [cro]
ah. Not installed here. Darn :-)
21:58:06 [rbm]
talli: wrong window :)
21:58:11 [talli]
haha
21:58:15 [talli]
you should fix that
22:00:17 [cro]
LOL
22:00:37 [rbm]
cro: same here :)
22:15:25 [talli]
did you guys notice the post yesterday by the guy who welcomed the OpenACS community to the OpenACS community?
22:16:24 [denshi]
was it a typo?
22:20:29 [talli]
i think it was more of a crazy freako
22:21:40 [denshi]
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22:22:32 [denshi]
denshi (~chatzilla@cs6625176-26.austin.rr.com) has joined #openacs
22:30:54 [rbm]
* rbm checks the new ad.com
22:47:38 [talli]
talli has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
22:48:50 [cro]
cro has quit ("take care all")
22:48:52 [rbm]
paje: revive Psychephylax
22:48:52 [paje]
rbm: what?
22:49:02 [rbm]
eerrrm
22:49:17 [denshi]
dammit rbm, stop with the necromancy
22:50:45 [rbm]
:)
23:26:56 [jim]
jim has quit ("[x]chat")
23:27:33 [denshi]
I can't even describe how fucked up apache is
23:27:37 [denshi]
paje, hold me.
23:27:37 [paje]
denshi: i'm not following you...
23:43:36 [rbm]
denshi: how so?
23:45:25 [denshi]
I'll mail you a log later
23:47:22 [rbm]
paje: hold me is <action> holds $who
23:47:22 [paje]
OK, rbm.
23:47:26 [rbm]
paje: hold me
23:47:26 [paje]
rbm: sorry...
23:47:30 [rbm]
ack
23:47:34 [rbm]
paje: hold me?
23:47:34 [paje]
rbm: wish i knew
23:47:38 [rbm]
crap