00:18:09 wow 00:18:17 what a lot of activity while I'm gone 00:40:35 denshi is now known as denshi-frisbee 00:41:03 denshi-frisbee is now known as denshi 00:54:06 markd2 has quit ("wheeeee") 00:55:28 [GlobalNotice] Hi all. We have an interim patch for the services problems we've been experienced since relocating them. Apologies for the problems and we'll keep you informed of progress. Thank you for using OPN! 00:57:29 boogatatooga is now known as talli 01:04:13 w00t 01:04:22 I just got memory for Roberto for 50$ 01:46:36 [GlobalNotice] Hi all. We hope we've resolved the services problems for the time being. As a byproduct of this temporary fix, please specify only numeric indexes when deleting an entry from a channel access list. Thanks. 02:16:29 * davb highfive's Spork 02:16:46 paje, woohoo is highfive's Spork 02:16:50 darn 02:16:54 when is he coming back 02:18:05 wow, the berklee .LRN stuff sounds cool 02:18:08 jim? 02:23:41 hey dave 02:23:57 * Spork kicks dave 02:25:59 ack 02:26:31 syn ack! 02:26:38 syn 02:26:47 haha..we just did a backwards 3 way handshake 02:26:50 ROFL 02:27:16 I rock 02:27:53 I just got 512MB of DDR ram for 100$ 02:27:56 Saved like 30$ 02:28:43 ola 02:30:22 Yeah, what happened to Ola? 02:30:29 I haven't seen him here in a looong time 02:30:50 talli has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:32:10 where did you get the RAM? 02:33:55 someone on dslr 02:36:10 benadida (~benadida@66-108-98-245.nyc.rr.com) has joined #openacs 02:36:26 'sup, ben? 02:36:37 hey there 02:36:39 Does anyone know what happened to Ola? 02:37:37 no idea 02:37:59 I don't get to hang out much on IRC... what's everyone up to? 02:38:49 I am thinking about working on ETP 2. 02:39:08 cool. What kind of features? 02:39:28 the list luke made. there is a preliminary spec in new-file-storage. 02:39:47 i'm working on apache2 stuff at the moment 02:39:48 basically, a little easier to use and customize. 02:41:37 apache2? As in getting OpenACS working on Apache2? 02:41:38 ...and cooking tofu 02:41:51 sorry, can't sympathize on the tofu... not a fan :) 02:41:51 well, that'll happen on the way 02:42:33 * Spork goes to bed 02:42:40 tofu really only works in asian dishes... it just doesn't pick up the western spices as well 02:42:40 chip` (~chip@force-elite.com) has joined #openacs 02:42:51 this is turning into a party 02:42:59 where's vinod? 02:43:08 hello 02:43:13 oops, paje is dead 02:43:38 hi chip` 02:44:05 heh just dropping by .... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,3244312~root=unixdsl~mode=flat .. he told me to :-) 02:44:30 ahh OpenACS sounds cool 02:44:33 chip, hearing voices from websites is generally considered to be trouble 02:44:47 * chip` is browsing website 02:45:10 oh, *phylax just knocked off for bed. 02:45:30 ben, what are you cooking up right now? (as in code) 02:45:34 anyone out there played with the dotLRN stuff? 02:45:44 I have. looks pretty good. 02:45:53 I'm working on a massive rework of calendar and bboard actually. 02:46:29 calendar has basically been a rebuild of large chunks that are about to be assembled. 02:46:37 bboard is going to be a pretty big rewrite. 02:46:43 mmm OpenACS is cool... but I already use mod_perl ;-) .. well have fun with your tcl/aolserver stuff im off to waste more time playin with Java Servlets 02:47:00 funny that you called it "wasting time" :) 02:47:03 chip` has left #openacs 02:48:39 who's interested in actually hacking on dotLRN vs. just using it? 02:48:55 (not sure who's actually listening right now, so I'll just throw that question out) 02:49:12 I'm interested, just really busy :) 02:49:52 oops, working in the wrong repository (don't worry, not openacs :) 02:52:07 well, I haven't kept track of what dotLRN has actually accomplished 02:52:41 you mean we haven't given you good status updates, or you're not quite sure what it might be useful for (or both) 02:53:03 the latter. I haven't read the former 02:54:10 lethedrinker: did you have the load datamodel without aolserver script? 02:55:46 I am interested in using dotLRN for an online learning project when it is ready, 02:55:46 fair enough. Everyone is pretty busy! dotLRN is, in a nutshell, a layer on top of OpenACS that allows you to create and manage communities and organize applications for each community, all in a portal interface. 02:55:58 that's cool. 02:56:58 so it's subsites via portals? 02:57:13 btw, new-portal looks great. 02:57:34 that's one aspect of it, yes, and also greater control over how packages interact with one another, what happens to each package when users are added to communities, etc... 02:57:41 yes, Arjun is doing a great job on that. 02:58:21 I'm getting the feeling that there's disappointment/unhappiness, though, about the way we've been handling the dotLRN dev. I wouldn't mind some candid feedback if people are willing to provide it. 02:59:05 mainly it took alot longer than the original schedule that was announced, with not much information in between. 02:59:14 that's a fair point, yes. 02:59:29 I think we didn't realize how much work dotLRN would become. 02:59:37 of course. 03:00:00 i'm afraid I can't contribute to this discussion; I haven't kept track as my time has been consumed by relocation & ilk 03:00:41 What we're trying to do is to find a way to involve more people in it very soon. Challenges will probably involve how to synchronize the full-time heads-down developers of dotLRN with the not-so-full-time. 03:00:50 right. 03:01:17 but I'm pretty excited to get this code out there for people to hack, contribute to, and generally work with. 03:01:33 I hope the delay hasn't hurt enthusiasm too much. 03:02:27 hmmm... how do you tend to involve outside developers? 03:02:30 I set up a demo on my computer and everyone who looked at it seemed to like it. 03:02:36 talli (~chatzilla@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 03:02:54 ahah, maybe Talli can give us some candid feedback :) 03:03:00 benadida: one thing I think is important is some sort of coordination with openacs like don said in his last message. 03:03:51 now, that won't be easy, but at least to make sure they are moving in the same direction. 03:03:52 How do you feel there hasn't been coordination? 03:04:40 denshi: we want to involve outside developers in two ways: construction of new dotLRN packages, and contributions to core if the dev in question has enough time and energy :) 03:04:58 I haven't seen any problems, but I think after openacs 4.5 is released there will be alot of changes to the core. 03:05:12 again, I haven't followed dotLRN, so my opinion shouldn't count for much 03:05:37 but I've seen two things in various OSS projects I've been in; and I try to use them as benchmarks 03:05:43 denshi: that's not necessarily true, we want as many opinions as possible. 03:06:01 1. what's the timespan between hacking and release to community exposure? 03:06:48 we all want to make sure we've done everything, and that we're totally cool before release, but the conclusion of that impulse keeps the source closed for a *very* long time 03:07:15 right, so the CVS tree is currently entirely open. All our commits are immediately visible. 03:07:17 these days, I try to get even new projects out within one week. 03:07:30 the next step is getting people outside OF to contribute to the CVS. 03:07:32 good thing. as I said, I haven't watched. 03:08:09 2. how active are you in accepting outside patches? 03:08:12 I think we're also going to test out Musea and Lars's new bug tracker to see if we can use it as a way to begin outside contributions to dotLRN (thanks for that guys). 03:08:43 right now we have an email address dotlrn@openforce.net where we accept comments, patches, etc.. We've only received a couple of patches, and we've applied them immediately (mostly to the install sequence). 03:08:47 one of the miriad failures of aD was their disdain for outside code. they managed to fiscally screw themselves in 2 directions as a result. 03:09:24 eventually, we want a full blown SDM, and slowly opening up CVS access to others. It's a delicate direction, but we intend on following it. 03:09:32 well, do it 03:09:37 like, 6 months ago 03:09:58 how do you mean? As in, it's overdue? 03:10:02 yeah, losing ego sucks for everyone, but that's how to best work in OSS 03:10:02 yes 03:10:17 davb: re load data model script, yes i have it. but its at home, i'm still at work 03:10:34 i'll upload to new-file-storage latter tonight, it requires python2.2 03:10:37 so, what do you suggest we do ? 03:10:41 lethedrinker: np. i am already done :) thanks! 03:10:44 open up CVS? to whom? 03:11:06 hi benadida 03:11:14 hi there. 03:11:38 Talli: you said yes to it's overdue? what would you like to see us do? 03:11:42 get that SDM up, for one. it's better than "here's an email"; you might see more involvement if people have a visible structure of submission 03:11:59 benadida: dotlrn is missing one piece that would make it much more useful 03:12:14 benadida: it and the openacs could really use an event channel 03:12:36 currently its overly dependent on explicit component dependencies via the contracts package 03:12:46 okay, so, we have http://dotlrn.openforce.net which explains exactly how to contribute right now, given our limited resources. 03:12:51 where as an event channel would allow decoupling of interfaces. 03:13:03 s/interfaces/components 03:13:04 an event channel: can you elaborate? 03:13:33 a publish subscribe model for events, with support push and pull models. as an example 03:14:10 okay, that's fair, that's what I proposed for ACS 4.0, but no one wanted it :) 03:14:24 a true publish/subscribe model would be cool, yes. 03:14:27 say a user signs up for a dotlrn community instead of hard coding a series of interactions (or a specific proc registration for it), the membership component could just broadcast a message 'new user' to interested listeners. 03:14:44 right, so we kind of have a limited version of that with dotLRN applets. 03:14:49 benadida: i don't really care about dotlrn one way or the other. 03:14:50 denshi has quit (Remote closed the connection) 03:15:08 i don't care whether sloan uses it or whether it's good for schools 03:15:29 all i want is an approach to development of tools that will be contributed to the oacs the same way that others approach 03:15:32 denshi (~chatzilla@cs6625176-26.austin.rr.com) has joined #openacs 03:15:35 which is open 03:15:38 they register themselves with the core, and then there are callbacks. Not generic publish/subscribe, but it's there. 03:15:48 i wrote one for zope ;), i would like to do something similiar for openacs but i'm not using openacs that much at the moment. hopefully sometime in the not-to long future. 03:16:03 benadida: thats pretty much exactly what i meant by a specific proc registry in my example. 03:16:04 if youre working on the bboards and the calendar, please post design docs now so that others can consider that work 03:16:10 because others are doing the same thing 03:16:16 Talli: can you elaborate? what does open mean? 03:16:17 also, *you* might *save* time and work 03:16:29 okay, thanks our messages got crossed. 03:16:49 benadida: ive outlined it on the bboards quite a bit, and much more diplomatically 03:16:52 benadida: design docs as in what the aD produced for acs4 but at open to the public at earlier stage. 03:17:19 right, so by revamp of calendar, for example, understand that I'm only talking about underlying architecture, not feature changes. 03:17:26 I'm effectively refactoring stuff into widgets. 03:17:38 so? whats the difference? are you doing it for the OACS or for Sloan? 03:17:42 for bboard, I actually don't have that spec document yet, but sure, i can post that. 03:17:44 will your work be released? 03:17:59 of course my work will be released, it is constantly released, I check it in all the time. 03:18:26 so you should post the design docs beforehand 03:18:35 benadida: so in case this gets lost in the shuffle, i wanted to say thanks for working and releasing dotlrn. i hope that in the future you will invite the community to particpate in future development. 03:18:44 s/working/working on 03:19:02 absolutely. dotLRN will be open in the full sense now that we have a stake in the ground. 03:19:11 we've been trying to identify that stake for a while now. 03:19:12 you'd improve the perception of the proejct a great deal if you told people what you were doing rather than wave your hands and say someday it will be there 03:19:44 okay, so you want me to post design docs. Fair enough. Anything else that is concrete? 03:20:02 no. am i supposed to have something? 03:20:29 only if you have other complaints. 03:20:29 i need to get back to hacking, but I want to leave on this point: much of the annoyance around dotLRN and participation is because that one of the ostensible ringleaders of this little band, the OACSers, is basically out of communication range on what is essentially a fork. 03:20:46 a fork? 03:20:56 please elaborate, I really want to understand this. 03:20:58 it is not a fork. it is one application of openacs. 03:21:07 no, it's pretty close to a fork 03:21:24 how so? 03:21:36 it's a fork at least in terms of developer attention and the behavior of the developers 03:21:37 yes, a fork. listen to what's going on in new development: "should I use straight oacs4 or use the dotLRN bboard packages"? 03:21:39 i disagree... 03:22:05 bboad is a package. not openacs. 03:22:08 a fork of certain packages, absolutely. 03:22:08 its could be seen as a fork of some packages... but not of the core. 03:22:16 that's because our client needs that. 03:22:23 but you can still use the classic bboard package in dotLRN. 03:22:25 after openacs 4.5, there will hopefully be seperate development of packages from the core. 03:22:34 precisely. thank you daveb. 03:22:36 there are repeated queries about substitutions between oacs4 packages and dotLRN packages. ergo, dotLRN is a fork. 03:23:01 that's part of the OpenACS framework: you pick the packages you want. 03:23:03 the very fact that these questions are raised is an example of something akin to a fork 03:23:06 but dotLRN runs on the OpenACS core. 03:23:09 last i check choice was good ;-) 03:23:10 but since you are one of the ringleaders, there's really no reason that those packages couldn't be committed to oacs4 *immediately* 03:23:24 no, it is a misunderstanding. 03:23:48 Talli: I'm not seeing you comments as productive here. Denshi has an interesting point. Let's try to be productive in taht directin. 03:24:03 benadida: thanks, i'm leaving now 03:24:26 that wouldn't be productive either, but okay. 03:24:36 i'm not trying to raise ire with anyone; and forks are good for choice; but your role as one of the oacs founders generates a bunch of confusion: 'is he leaving? are we seeing aD again?' 03:24:49 benadida: from both a work perspective and in the development community, i find you terribly arrogant 03:24:51 do you guys regard ybos.net as people who have forked the acs? 03:24:54 that's a fair question, and let me address it. 03:24:58 that's not productive either, but oh well 03:25:09 talli has left #openacs 03:25:10 I'm sorry that you see me that way. 03:25:30 sigh... 03:25:32 lethedrinker: i think ybos did fork acs. it is partially incompatible with acs I think :) 03:25:36 Denshi: thank you for bringing up hard issues and keeping them productive. 03:25:45 I am not leaving. 03:25:49 and you are not seeing aD again. 03:25:50 I think this is all perception. 03:25:53 davb: exactly 03:26:03 Problem is, right now all the packages ARE openacs. 03:26:20 lethedrinker, ybos.net forked the acs classic. that's what they say. 03:26:32 we need to decouple the core, so that packages can be released on a seperate schedule. 03:26:34 what you are seeing is a small company with few resources trying to satisfy a large client and continue as completely open-source. 03:26:45 benadida: thats probably my biggest concern, in that the development processes mirrors the closed nature of what went on with aD 03:26:50 few spare resources, let's say. 03:27:07 then we will work harder to make sure that doesn't happen. 03:27:22 However, it's important to note that there are certain client requirements that we cannot get away from. 03:27:34 and we cannot have every discussion out in the open. 03:28:11 see, I just don't see how dev time to accept outside patches is more expensive than internal development. 03:28:23 oh you're right, we DO accept outside patches! 03:28:27 talli_ (~chatzilla@talli.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 03:28:29 we don't think it's a waste of time at all. 03:28:38 there isn't one patch we haven't accepted. 03:28:47 what we don't have time to do right now is develop a better SDM. 03:28:59 what's wrong with the SDM at present? 03:29:02 and I'm happy that Talli & co are working on that (hello again Talli). 03:29:45 so we've wrestled with that argument for a while. We're not psyched about launching an OpenACS v4 product supported by OpenACS v3. Call it a psychological/marketing issue. 03:29:49 if it comes to that, we will. 03:29:56 but we'd rather have it on v4. 03:30:27 maybe this isn't a structural issue 03:30:35 maybe this is just interpersonal 03:30:44 how so? 03:30:58 on bboard and irc, you, and whoever works for you, are 'persona non grata' 03:31:14 really? that's interesting. I'm really sorry that's come about. 03:32:01 maybe I should learn latin before using it. in english, I mean to say that you are not present in levels comparable to last year, or the year before that. 03:32:03 can you tell me more about this? 03:32:15 oh I see. Less present. but not unwelcome? 03:32:26 yes we are less present. That's true. I wish I had more hours in the day, I swear. 03:32:44 in no way are you unwelcome. but you should accept that you are just another developer at this point. 03:32:58 as opposed to? 03:33:21 i think your persona nongrata 03:33:44 as opposed to a founder. 03:33:55 oacs4 is now don & roberto 03:33:59 Interesting. 03:34:00 the bboards and the irc is where the OACS gets developed 03:34:01 sigh... thats bull shit 03:34:10 if you're a gatekeeper, then you should make time 03:34:26 I've actually been hacking/improving OACS 4 code quite a bit. 03:34:32 as have all OF developers. 03:34:33 * lethedrinker decides to head home before sliding into a bad conversation 03:34:59 lethedrinker, don't leave! this is the time for a bad conversation. 03:35:03 that may be true. but so far you're development has been from the mountains looking down 03:35:23 and that is also the general way you've dealt with others 03:35:26 and this is from experience 03:35:28 Where do you get this from, Talli? Every change I make I talk to Don about. Even small changes. 03:35:46 denshi: ok, let me depart on some notes then, oacs4 is way more than don and roberto, second most of oacs dev takes place by private email. 03:36:15 thanks lethedrinker 03:36:45 let me amend my statement then, the bboards and irc channel is where development should take place 03:36:51 unfortunately, it doesn;t 03:36:54 there is alot of private mail. but we have been doing more on the bboards. 03:37:06 i tried to bring that up in the thread i generated, but it didn't seem to take 03:37:22 openforce is working on the oacs code and doing a very good job 03:37:42 i really shouldn't be particupating becuase i'm a competitor of yours, and shouldn't be critiqing you 03:38:14 Talli: whatever personal issues you have with me, I think you should leave them out of this discussion. Tell me what I should do differently for the community. More docs online. Fair, I will do that. What's with all the bitterness, though? 03:38:18 but as co-developers of the system as well, i resent that the improvements you are making can only be seen and appreicate once you deem it ready 03:38:37 thanks, talli, that's a fine way to put it. 03:38:56 so, okay, this is more productive. Thank you, talli. 03:39:04 let me split this into two points. 03:39:12 please, benadida, that's patronizign and the reason i left before 03:39:12 dotLRN, and OpenACS 4 core improvements. 03:39:21 i don't need to be told what is productive and what is not 03:39:35 if you want to know where the stem of the bitterness is coming from, i'd be happy to get a beer 03:39:38 it's more productive for me. How about that? 03:39:51 it helps me more. 03:39:54 let it be left unsaid 03:40:11 so, allow me to focus on OpenACS 4 improvements, first. 03:40:18 ok 03:40:24 a lot of the improvements I've made personally recently have to do with speed and efficiency. 03:40:39 for example, I'm testing a weird trigger update to acs_object creation between me, Don and Neophytos. 03:40:44 okay, I really should get back to hacking. I don't hack oacs-core and don't get into the politics. I enjoy the fruits of oacs dev rather than the dirt. 03:41:00 Denshi: I appreciate your comments. I will do my best to work harder on this stuff. 03:41:06 oacs-logger, off 03:42:33 first, whenever you do these updates, no one would notice unless they were reinstalling the core 03:42:41 so plenty of people don't know about it 03:43:09 second, there is no reason to think that you, don and neophytos are the only ones that know how to fix that problem 03:43:34 finally, i see no reason why you can't have those conversations on the bboards rather than by email 03:43:35 so you're saying that no matter what, I need to add the overhead of communication to every problem? 03:43:50 as a matter of principle in the oacs, yes 03:44:07 as a practical matter, what's the difference between postin on the baords and sending it as an email? 03:44:20 would it hurt to simply post something saying i sped this query up? 03:44:35 it affects the core, not just your client 03:44:37 for me, not much. For the signal-to-noise ratio of others, it might be a problem. 03:44:50 i don't see how you're doing anyone a benefit there 03:44:52 well, I'm testing it right now. and Don actually already mentioned it on the bboard. 03:45:09 so when he mentioned it, I figured I didn' treally need to mention it again. 03:45:10 does anyone complain about low signal to noise? 03:45:19 that's true 03:45:26 but it also shows an example of OF opacity 03:45:33 not, that's not true. 03:45:45 the only communique's from the company who is doing the largest project in the ocmmunity is from someone outside the company 03:45:49 I just don't feel the need to be the one communicating everything. 03:45:57 that's fine 03:46:14 what of http://dotlrn.openforce.net and our regular updates on the bboard about it? 03:46:21 there's nothign there 03:46:36 and the regular updates say it's there, go get it 03:46:50 look, i'm trying not to be bitter and offer comments that you asked for 03:46:56 concretely, what do you want to see? 03:46:59 1. more docs online 03:46:59 i tried before to be diplomatic on the bboards 03:47:03 2. more discussions online. 03:47:06 anything else? 03:47:37 benadida, if you haven't noticed yet, my issue is less with what is concrete and more with your behavior towards others 03:47:57 so you think I am the problem. 03:48:18 no, i think your behavior is. which is fine. 03:48:24 i am the head of a small company and i know the stress 03:48:36 what about my behavior is the problem? 03:48:41 i'm way too hot headed and will launch into people easily 03:48:48 so i don't blame you 03:48:55 to be more precise, what have I done that is arrogant? 03:49:02 but i think you need to be less secretive and more open with the community 03:49:18 christ, you want to know for the world? this conversation is logged, you know 03:49:37 I have nothing to hide. 03:49:47 if you want to know precisely, you can check the logs and see how many times you've made references to my productivity 03:50:13 I am trying to find out what issues people are having, and I have no issue doing it in public. 03:50:29 fine 03:50:36 i've given you my issues 03:50:47 that I'm arrogant because I've called you unproductive. 03:50:50 okay. 03:50:54 c;mon 03:51:07 that I'm secretive 03:51:43 I am honestly trying to identify some next steps to make things better here. 03:51:47 you don't have to like me. 03:51:54 but if you want to improve things, tell me what I should improve. 03:52:16 well, if we were all automatons, i would offer you an instruction set 03:52:16 docwolf (~afarkas@adsl-34-53-191.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs 03:52:21 oh, cool 03:52:25 the peacemaker has arrived 03:52:38 i actually came with napalm 03:52:52 and a dead harddrive 03:52:57 :-( 03:53:08 docwolf, you lost a drive today too? 03:53:19 yeah.. my travelstar in my primary machine is dying. 03:53:27 i'm using a creepy mandrake box right now as a backup 03:53:49 so what's going on? 03:54:05 talli & ben are looking for psychologists. 03:54:10 aren't we all 03:54:13 did you get that in your rotations? 03:54:37 yeah... but my advice is usually just to kick back a couple of shots of Jack. 03:54:47 it's cheaper than analysis. 03:54:59 funny, my advice is springbank 20 year. 03:55:13 it's too hard to find a shrink in NYC 03:55:18 talli_ is now known as talli 03:55:47 i thought everyone in nyc was either a shrink or a dancer 03:55:58 or jewish 03:56:20 but i guess none of those things are really mutually exclusive 03:56:35 at times like this, I always complain that set theory symbols aren't part of ASCII7. 03:56:37 anyway, benadida, it's good to get this break 03:56:50 if you want to discuss these issues, i'd be happy to meet you for a beer 03:57:33 that's fine with me, although I think I'll go docwolf on you and drink a diet coke. 03:57:49 if you have a diet coke, i'll drink a zima 03:57:58 now you're scaring me. 03:58:06 so does docwolf 03:58:10 i'll have a rzolf energy drink 03:58:56 maybe the two of you should come to the austin social. texans have all kinds of innovative conflict-resolution customs. 03:59:11 mechanical bull contests? 03:59:24 customs officials? 03:59:29 I do want to make one thing clear: OpenForce is entirely dedicated to the open-source community. This is not an ArsDigita in the making. We know open-source, we believe in two-way open-source (contributions and distribution), and if we are absent from bboards sometimes it is because we are overwhelmed with work. 03:59:44 remember that we are < 10 people. 04:00:45 i am == 1 people 04:00:55 yet I give my bit. 04:01:03 no one is questioning whether you're for OSS or not, nor whether you have many people 04:01:57 we give our code, too! 04:02:01 and we take the patches! We do! 04:02:07 that's true as well. 04:02:51 the point is that by not posting decision decisions that will fundamentally affect the core or the core packages (and bboards is as close to the core as a package can be) a lot of things go out of wack 04:02:58 cro (~cro@ip-66-218-240-160.cableaz.com) has joined #openacs 04:03:01 i.e., a fork. 04:03:05 hello, cro 04:03:13 evening all 04:03:21 probably more than anything this is an issue of misunderstanding and miscommunication 04:03:27 denshi: is it a fork if you can plug it in to your copy of openacs and it works? 04:03:30 wow.. i've heard this story before 04:03:43 and let me just say.. i'm glad that i'm 100% uninvolved :-) 04:03:51 okay this whole discussion has outlasted my beer supply 04:03:51 first of all: bboard hasn't changed *yet*. 04:03:52 but i think that it is generally felt that much of the community is pissed that they have been kept in the dark 04:04:09 and once things are revealed we're supposed to jump in and participate 04:04:39 i'll just try to add in another pathetic attempt at being productive: 04:04:41 fine, not yet. that's even better. a chance to see it develop would be great 04:05:05 I don't think anyone's been kept in the dark. You yourself, Talli, were at an early meeting where we discussed our thoughts about dotLRN at an OpenACS social way early on. 04:05:29 that was after you made the design decisions for new-portal 04:05:41 and no one saw any source code, nor was the code released afterwards 04:06:32 the code wasn't released? 04:07:20 Let's get back to action items. 04:07:29