IRC log of openacs on 2002-05-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:18:09 [Spork]
wow
00:18:17 [Spork]
what a lot of activity while I'm gone
00:40:35 [denshi]
denshi is now known as denshi-frisbee
00:41:03 [denshi-frisbee]
denshi-frisbee is now known as denshi
00:54:06 [markd2]
markd2 has quit ("wheeeee")
00:55:28 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. We have an interim patch for the services problems we've been experienced since relocating them. Apologies for the problems and we'll keep you informed of progress. Thank you for using OPN!
00:57:29 [boogatatooga]
boogatatooga is now known as talli
01:04:13 [Spork]
w00t
01:04:22 [Spork]
I just got memory for Roberto for 50$
01:46:36 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. We hope we've resolved the services problems for the time being. As a byproduct of this temporary fix, please specify only numeric indexes when deleting an entry from a channel access list. Thanks.
02:16:29 [davb]
* davb highfive's Spork
02:16:46 [davb]
paje, woohoo is <action> highfive's Spork
02:16:50 [davb]
darn
02:16:54 [davb]
when is he coming back
02:18:05 [davb]
wow, the berklee .LRN stuff sounds cool
02:18:08 [davb]
jim?
02:23:41 [Spork]
hey dave
02:23:57 [Spork]
* Spork kicks dave
02:25:59 [davb]
ack
02:26:31 [Spork]
syn ack!
02:26:38 [Spork]
syn
02:26:47 [Spork]
haha..we just did a backwards 3 way handshake
02:26:50 [Spork]
ROFL
02:27:16 [Spork]
I rock
02:27:53 [Spork]
I just got 512MB of DDR ram for 100$
02:27:56 [Spork]
Saved like 30$
02:28:43 [lethedrinker]
ola
02:30:22 [Spork]
Yeah, what happened to Ola?
02:30:29 [Spork]
I haven't seen him here in a looong time
02:30:50 [talli]
talli has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
02:32:10 [davb]
where did you get the RAM?
02:33:55 [Spork]
someone on dslr
02:36:10 [benadida]
benadida (~benadida@66-108-98-245.nyc.rr.com) has joined #openacs
02:36:26 [denshi]
'sup, ben?
02:36:37 [benadida]
hey there
02:36:39 [Spork]
Does anyone know what happened to Ola?
02:37:37 [denshi]
no idea
02:37:59 [benadida]
I don't get to hang out much on IRC... what's everyone up to?
02:38:49 [davb]
I am thinking about working on ETP 2.
02:39:08 [benadida]
cool. What kind of features?
02:39:28 [davb]
the list luke made. there is a preliminary spec in new-file-storage.
02:39:47 [denshi]
i'm working on apache2 stuff at the moment
02:39:48 [davb]
basically, a little easier to use and customize.
02:41:37 [benadida]
apache2? As in getting OpenACS working on Apache2?
02:41:38 [denshi]
...and cooking tofu
02:41:51 [benadida]
sorry, can't sympathize on the tofu... not a fan :)
02:41:51 [denshi]
well, that'll happen on the way
02:42:33 [Spork]
* Spork goes to bed
02:42:40 [denshi]
tofu really only works in asian dishes... it just doesn't pick up the western spices as well
02:42:40 [chip`]
chip` (~chip@force-elite.com) has joined #openacs
02:42:51 [denshi]
this is turning into a party
02:42:59 [denshi]
where's vinod?
02:43:08 [chip`]
hello
02:43:13 [denshi]
oops, paje is dead
02:43:38 [davb]
hi chip`
02:44:05 [chip`]
heh just dropping by .... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,3244312~root=unixdsl~mode=flat .. he told me to :-)
02:44:30 [chip`]
ahh OpenACS sounds cool
02:44:33 [denshi]
chip, hearing voices from websites is generally considered to be trouble
02:44:47 [chip`]
* chip` is browsing website
02:45:10 [denshi]
oh, *phylax just knocked off for bed.
02:45:30 [denshi]
ben, what are you cooking up right now? (as in code)
02:45:34 [benadida]
anyone out there played with the dotLRN stuff?
02:45:44 [davb]
I have. looks pretty good.
02:45:53 [benadida]
I'm working on a massive rework of calendar and bboard actually.
02:46:29 [benadida]
calendar has basically been a rebuild of large chunks that are about to be assembled.
02:46:37 [benadida]
bboard is going to be a pretty big rewrite.
02:46:43 [chip`]
mmm OpenACS is cool... but I already use mod_perl ;-) .. well have fun with your tcl/aolserver stuff im off to waste more time playin with Java Servlets
02:47:00 [benadida]
funny that you called it "wasting time" :)
02:47:03 [chip`]
chip` has left #openacs
02:48:39 [benadida]
who's interested in actually hacking on dotLRN vs. just using it?
02:48:55 [benadida]
(not sure who's actually listening right now, so I'll just throw that question out)
02:49:12 [davb]
I'm interested, just really busy :)
02:49:52 [davb]
oops, working in the wrong repository (don't worry, not openacs :)
02:52:07 [denshi]
well, I haven't kept track of what dotLRN has actually accomplished
02:52:41 [benadida]
you mean we haven't given you good status updates, or you're not quite sure what it might be useful for (or both)
02:53:03 [denshi]
the latter. I haven't read the former
02:54:10 [davb]
lethedrinker: did you have the load datamodel without aolserver script?
02:55:46 [davb]
I am interested in using dotLRN for an online learning project when it is ready,
02:55:46 [benadida]
fair enough. Everyone is pretty busy! dotLRN is, in a nutshell, a layer on top of OpenACS that allows you to create and manage communities and organize applications for each community, all in a portal interface.
02:55:58 [benadida]
that's cool.
02:56:58 [denshi]
so it's subsites via portals?
02:57:13 [davb]
btw, new-portal looks great.
02:57:34 [benadida]
that's one aspect of it, yes, and also greater control over how packages interact with one another, what happens to each package when users are added to communities, etc...
02:57:41 [benadida]
yes, Arjun is doing a great job on that.
02:58:21 [benadida]
I'm getting the feeling that there's disappointment/unhappiness, though, about the way we've been handling the dotLRN dev. I wouldn't mind some candid feedback if people are willing to provide it.
02:59:05 [davb]
mainly it took alot longer than the original schedule that was announced, with not much information in between.
02:59:14 [benadida]
that's a fair point, yes.
02:59:29 [benadida]
I think we didn't realize how much work dotLRN would become.
02:59:37 [davb]
of course.
03:00:00 [denshi]
i'm afraid I can't contribute to this discussion; I haven't kept track as my time has been consumed by relocation & ilk
03:00:41 [benadida]
What we're trying to do is to find a way to involve more people in it very soon. Challenges will probably involve how to synchronize the full-time heads-down developers of dotLRN with the not-so-full-time.
03:00:50 [davb]
right.
03:01:17 [benadida]
but I'm pretty excited to get this code out there for people to hack, contribute to, and generally work with.
03:01:33 [benadida]
I hope the delay hasn't hurt enthusiasm too much.
03:02:27 [denshi]
hmmm... how do you tend to involve outside developers?
03:02:30 [davb]
I set up a demo on my computer and everyone who looked at it seemed to like it.
03:02:36 [talli]
talli (~chatzilla@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs
03:02:54 [benadida]
ahah, maybe Talli can give us some candid feedback :)
03:03:00 [davb]
benadida: one thing I think is important is some sort of coordination with openacs like don said in his last message.
03:03:51 [davb]
now, that won't be easy, but at least to make sure they are moving in the same direction.
03:03:52 [benadida]
How do you feel there hasn't been coordination?
03:04:40 [benadida]
denshi: we want to involve outside developers in two ways: construction of new dotLRN packages, and contributions to core if the dev in question has enough time and energy :)
03:04:58 [davb]
I haven't seen any problems, but I think after openacs 4.5 is released there will be alot of changes to the core.
03:05:12 [denshi]
again, I haven't followed dotLRN, so my opinion shouldn't count for much
03:05:37 [denshi]
but I've seen two things in various OSS projects I've been in; and I try to use them as benchmarks
03:05:43 [benadida]
denshi: that's not necessarily true, we want as many opinions as possible.
03:06:01 [denshi]
1. what's the timespan between hacking and release to community exposure?
03:06:48 [denshi]
we all want to make sure we've done everything, and that we're totally cool before release, but the conclusion of that impulse keeps the source closed for a *very* long time
03:07:15 [benadida]
right, so the CVS tree is currently entirely open. All our commits are immediately visible.
03:07:17 [denshi]
these days, I try to get even new projects out within one week.
03:07:30 [benadida]
the next step is getting people outside OF to contribute to the CVS.
03:07:32 [denshi]
good thing. as I said, I haven't watched.
03:08:09 [denshi]
2. how active are you in accepting outside patches?
03:08:12 [benadida]
I think we're also going to test out Musea and Lars's new bug tracker to see if we can use it as a way to begin outside contributions to dotLRN (thanks for that guys).
03:08:43 [benadida]
right now we have an email address dotlrn@openforce.net where we accept comments, patches, etc.. We've only received a couple of patches, and we've applied them immediately (mostly to the install sequence).
03:08:47 [denshi]
one of the miriad failures of aD was their disdain for outside code. they managed to fiscally screw themselves in 2 directions as a result.
03:09:24 [benadida]
eventually, we want a full blown SDM, and slowly opening up CVS access to others. It's a delicate direction, but we intend on following it.
03:09:32 [denshi]
well, do it
03:09:37 [denshi]
like, 6 months ago
03:09:58 [benadida]
how do you mean? As in, it's overdue?
03:10:02 [denshi]
yeah, losing ego sucks for everyone, but that's how to best work in OSS
03:10:02 [talli]
yes
03:10:17 [lethedrinker]
davb: re load data model script, yes i have it. but its at home, i'm still at work
03:10:34 [lethedrinker]
i'll upload to new-file-storage latter tonight, it requires python2.2
03:10:37 [benadida]
so, what do you suggest we do ?
03:10:41 [davb]
lethedrinker: np. i am already done :) thanks!
03:10:44 [benadida]
open up CVS? to whom?
03:11:06 [lethedrinker]
hi benadida
03:11:14 [benadida]
hi there.
03:11:38 [benadida]
Talli: you said yes to it's overdue? what would you like to see us do?
03:11:42 [denshi]
get that SDM up, for one. it's better than "here's an email"; you might see more involvement if people have a visible structure of submission
03:11:59 [lethedrinker]
benadida: dotlrn is missing one piece that would make it much more useful
03:12:14 [lethedrinker]
benadida: it and the openacs could really use an event channel
03:12:36 [lethedrinker]
currently its overly dependent on explicit component dependencies via the contracts package
03:12:46 [benadida]
okay, so, we have http://dotlrn.openforce.net which explains exactly how to contribute right now, given our limited resources.
03:12:51 [lethedrinker]
where as an event channel would allow decoupling of interfaces.
03:13:03 [lethedrinker]
s/interfaces/components
03:13:04 [benadida]
an event channel: can you elaborate?
03:13:33 [lethedrinker]
a publish subscribe model for events, with support push and pull models. as an example
03:14:10 [benadida]
okay, that's fair, that's what I proposed for ACS 4.0, but no one wanted it :)
03:14:24 [benadida]
a true publish/subscribe model would be cool, yes.
03:14:27 [lethedrinker]
say a user signs up for a dotlrn community instead of hard coding a series of interactions (or a specific proc registration for it), the membership component could just broadcast a message 'new user' to interested listeners.
03:14:44 [benadida]
right, so we kind of have a limited version of that with dotLRN applets.
03:14:49 [talli]
benadida: i don't really care about dotlrn one way or the other.
03:14:50 [denshi]
denshi has quit (Remote closed the connection)
03:15:08 [talli]
i don't care whether sloan uses it or whether it's good for schools
03:15:29 [talli]
all i want is an approach to development of tools that will be contributed to the oacs the same way that others approach
03:15:32 [denshi]
denshi (~chatzilla@cs6625176-26.austin.rr.com) has joined #openacs
03:15:35 [talli]
which is open
03:15:38 [benadida]
they register themselves with the core, and then there are callbacks. Not generic publish/subscribe, but it's there.
03:15:48 [lethedrinker]
i wrote one for zope ;), i would like to do something similiar for openacs but i'm not using openacs that much at the moment. hopefully sometime in the not-to long future.
03:16:03 [lethedrinker]
benadida: thats pretty much exactly what i meant by a specific proc registry in my example.
03:16:04 [talli]
if youre working on the bboards and the calendar, please post design docs now so that others can consider that work
03:16:10 [talli]
because others are doing the same thing
03:16:16 [benadida]
Talli: can you elaborate? what does open mean?
03:16:17 [talli]
also, *you* might *save* time and work
03:16:29 [benadida]
okay, thanks our messages got crossed.
03:16:49 [talli]
benadida: ive outlined it on the bboards quite a bit, and much more diplomatically
03:16:52 [lethedrinker]
benadida: design docs as in what the aD produced for acs4 but at open to the public at earlier stage.
03:17:19 [benadida]
right, so by revamp of calendar, for example, understand that I'm only talking about underlying architecture, not feature changes.
03:17:26 [benadida]
I'm effectively refactoring stuff into widgets.
03:17:38 [talli]
so? whats the difference? are you doing it for the OACS or for Sloan?
03:17:42 [benadida]
for bboard, I actually don't have that spec document yet, but sure, i can post that.
03:17:44 [talli]
will your work be released?
03:17:59 [benadida]
of course my work will be released, it is constantly released, I check it in all the time.
03:18:26 [talli]
so you should post the design docs beforehand
03:18:35 [lethedrinker]
benadida: so in case this gets lost in the shuffle, i wanted to say thanks for working and releasing dotlrn. i hope that in the future you will invite the community to particpate in future development.
03:18:44 [lethedrinker]
s/working/working on
03:19:02 [benadida]
absolutely. dotLRN will be open in the full sense now that we have a stake in the ground.
03:19:11 [benadida]
we've been trying to identify that stake for a while now.
03:19:12 [talli]
you'd improve the perception of the proejct a great deal if you told people what you were doing rather than wave your hands and say someday it will be there
03:19:44 [benadida]
okay, so you want me to post design docs. Fair enough. Anything else that is concrete?
03:20:02 [talli]
no. am i supposed to have something?
03:20:29 [benadida]
only if you have other complaints.
03:20:29 [denshi]
i need to get back to hacking, but I want to leave on this point: much of the annoyance around dotLRN and participation is because that one of the ostensible ringleaders of this little band, the OACSers, is basically out of communication range on what is essentially a fork.
03:20:46 [benadida]
a fork?
03:20:56 [benadida]
please elaborate, I really want to understand this.
03:20:58 [davb]
it is not a fork. it is one application of openacs.
03:21:07 [talli]
no, it's pretty close to a fork
03:21:24 [benadida]
how so?
03:21:36 [talli]
it's a fork at least in terms of developer attention and the behavior of the developers
03:21:37 [denshi]
yes, a fork. listen to what's going on in new development: "should I use straight oacs4 or use the dotLRN bboard packages"?
03:21:39 [lethedrinker]
i disagree...
03:22:05 [davb]
bboad is a package. not openacs.
03:22:08 [benadida]
a fork of certain packages, absolutely.
03:22:08 [lethedrinker]
its could be seen as a fork of some packages... but not of the core.
03:22:16 [benadida]
that's because our client needs that.
03:22:23 [benadida]
but you can still use the classic bboard package in dotLRN.
03:22:25 [davb]
after openacs 4.5, there will hopefully be seperate development of packages from the core.
03:22:34 [benadida]
precisely. thank you daveb.
03:22:36 [denshi]
there are repeated queries about substitutions between oacs4 packages and dotLRN packages. ergo, dotLRN is a fork.
03:23:01 [benadida]
that's part of the OpenACS framework: you pick the packages you want.
03:23:03 [talli]
the very fact that these questions are raised is an example of something akin to a fork
03:23:06 [benadida]
but dotLRN runs on the OpenACS core.
03:23:09 [lethedrinker]
last i check choice was good ;-)
03:23:10 [denshi]
but since you are one of the ringleaders, there's really no reason that those packages couldn't be committed to oacs4 *immediately*
03:23:24 [davb]
no, it is a misunderstanding.
03:23:48 [benadida]
Talli: I'm not seeing you comments as productive here. Denshi has an interesting point. Let's try to be productive in taht directin.
03:24:03 [talli]
benadida: thanks, i'm leaving now
03:24:26 [benadida]
that wouldn't be productive either, but okay.
03:24:36 [denshi]
i'm not trying to raise ire with anyone; and forks are good for choice; but your role as one of the oacs founders generates a bunch of confusion: 'is he leaving? are we seeing aD again?'
03:24:49 [talli]
benadida: from both a work perspective and in the development community, i find you terribly arrogant
03:24:51 [lethedrinker]
do you guys regard ybos.net as people who have forked the acs?
03:24:54 [benadida]
that's a fair question, and let me address it.
03:24:58 [talli]
that's not productive either, but oh well
03:25:09 [talli]
talli has left #openacs
03:25:10 [benadida]
I'm sorry that you see me that way.
03:25:30 [lethedrinker]
sigh...
03:25:32 [davb]
lethedrinker: i think ybos did fork acs. it is partially incompatible with acs I think :)
03:25:36 [benadida]
Denshi: thank you for bringing up hard issues and keeping them productive.
03:25:45 [benadida]
I am not leaving.
03:25:49 [benadida]
and you are not seeing aD again.
03:25:50 [davb]
I think this is all perception.
03:25:53 [lethedrinker]
davb: exactly
03:26:03 [davb]
Problem is, right now all the packages ARE openacs.
03:26:20 [denshi]
lethedrinker, ybos.net forked the acs classic. that's what they say.
03:26:32 [davb]
we need to decouple the core, so that packages can be released on a seperate schedule.
03:26:34 [benadida]
what you are seeing is a small company with few resources trying to satisfy a large client and continue as completely open-source.
03:26:45 [lethedrinker]
benadida: thats probably my biggest concern, in that the development processes mirrors the closed nature of what went on with aD
03:26:50 [benadida]
few spare resources, let's say.
03:27:07 [benadida]
then we will work harder to make sure that doesn't happen.
03:27:22 [benadida]
However, it's important to note that there are certain client requirements that we cannot get away from.
03:27:34 [benadida]
and we cannot have every discussion out in the open.
03:28:11 [denshi]
see, I just don't see how dev time to accept outside patches is more expensive than internal development.
03:28:23 [benadida]
oh you're right, we DO accept outside patches!
03:28:27 [talli_]
talli_ (~chatzilla@talli.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs
03:28:29 [benadida]
we don't think it's a waste of time at all.
03:28:38 [benadida]
there isn't one patch we haven't accepted.
03:28:47 [benadida]
what we don't have time to do right now is develop a better SDM.
03:28:59 [denshi]
what's wrong with the SDM at present?
03:29:02 [benadida]
and I'm happy that Talli & co are working on that (hello again Talli).
03:29:45 [benadida]
so we've wrestled with that argument for a while. We're not psyched about launching an OpenACS v4 product supported by OpenACS v3. Call it a psychological/marketing issue.
03:29:49 [benadida]
if it comes to that, we will.
03:29:56 [benadida]
but we'd rather have it on v4.
03:30:27 [denshi]
maybe this isn't a structural issue
03:30:35 [denshi]
maybe this is just interpersonal
03:30:44 [benadida]
how so?
03:30:58 [denshi]
on bboard and irc, you, and whoever works for you, are 'persona non grata'
03:31:14 [benadida]
really? that's interesting. I'm really sorry that's come about.
03:32:01 [denshi]
maybe I should learn latin before using it. in english, I mean to say that you are not present in levels comparable to last year, or the year before that.
03:32:03 [benadida]
can you tell me more about this?
03:32:15 [benadida]
oh I see. Less present. but not unwelcome?
03:32:26 [benadida]
yes we are less present. That's true. I wish I had more hours in the day, I swear.
03:32:44 [denshi]
in no way are you unwelcome. but you should accept that you are just another developer at this point.
03:32:58 [benadida]
as opposed to?
03:33:21 [talli_]
i think your persona nongrata
03:33:44 [denshi]
as opposed to a founder.
03:33:55 [denshi]
oacs4 is now don & roberto
03:33:59 [benadida]
Interesting.
03:34:00 [talli_]
the bboards and the irc is where the OACS gets developed
03:34:01 [lethedrinker]
sigh... thats bull shit
03:34:10 [talli_]
if you're a gatekeeper, then you should make time
03:34:26 [benadida]
I've actually been hacking/improving OACS 4 code quite a bit.
03:34:32 [benadida]
as have all OF developers.
03:34:33 [lethedrinker]
* lethedrinker decides to head home before sliding into a bad conversation
03:34:59 [denshi]
lethedrinker, don't leave! this is the time for a bad conversation.
03:35:03 [talli_]
that may be true. but so far you're development has been from the mountains looking down
03:35:23 [talli_]
and that is also the general way you've dealt with others
03:35:26 [talli_]
and this is from experience
03:35:28 [benadida]
Where do you get this from, Talli? Every change I make I talk to Don about. Even small changes.
03:35:46 [lethedrinker]
denshi: ok, let me depart on some notes then, oacs4 is way more than don and roberto, second most of oacs dev takes place by private email.
03:36:15 [talli_]
thanks lethedrinker
03:36:45 [talli_]
let me amend my statement then, the bboards and irc channel is where development should take place
03:36:51 [talli_]
unfortunately, it doesn;t
03:36:54 [davb]
there is alot of private mail. but we have been doing more on the bboards.
03:37:06 [talli_]
i tried to bring that up in the thread i generated, but it didn't seem to take
03:37:22 [talli_]
openforce is working on the oacs code and doing a very good job
03:37:42 [talli_]
i really shouldn't be particupating becuase i'm a competitor of yours, and shouldn't be critiqing you
03:38:14 [benadida]
Talli: whatever personal issues you have with me, I think you should leave them out of this discussion. Tell me what I should do differently for the community. More docs online. Fair, I will do that. What's with all the bitterness, though?
03:38:18 [talli_]
but as co-developers of the system as well, i resent that the improvements you are making can only be seen and appreicate once you deem it ready
03:38:37 [denshi]
thanks, talli, that's a fine way to put it.
03:38:56 [benadida]
so, okay, this is more productive. Thank you, talli.
03:39:04 [benadida]
let me split this into two points.
03:39:12 [talli_]
please, benadida, that's patronizign and the reason i left before
03:39:12 [benadida]
dotLRN, and OpenACS 4 core improvements.
03:39:21 [talli_]
i don't need to be told what is productive and what is not
03:39:35 [talli_]
if you want to know where the stem of the bitterness is coming from, i'd be happy to get a beer
03:39:38 [benadida]
it's more productive for me. How about that?
03:39:51 [benadida]
it helps me more.
03:39:54 [talli_]
let it be left unsaid
03:40:11 [benadida]
so, allow me to focus on OpenACS 4 improvements, first.
03:40:18 [talli_]
ok
03:40:24 [benadida]
a lot of the improvements I've made personally recently have to do with speed and efficiency.
03:40:39 [benadida]
for example, I'm testing a weird trigger update to acs_object creation between me, Don and Neophytos.
03:40:44 [denshi]
okay, I really should get back to hacking. I don't hack oacs-core and don't get into the politics. I enjoy the fruits of oacs dev rather than the dirt.
03:41:00 [benadida]
Denshi: I appreciate your comments. I will do my best to work harder on this stuff.
03:41:06 [talli_]
oacs-logger, off
03:42:33 [talli_]
first, whenever you do these updates, no one would notice unless they were reinstalling the core
03:42:41 [talli_]
so plenty of people don't know about it
03:43:09 [talli_]
second, there is no reason to think that you, don and neophytos are the only ones that know how to fix that problem
03:43:34 [talli_]
finally, i see no reason why you can't have those conversations on the bboards rather than by email
03:43:35 [benadida]
so you're saying that no matter what, I need to add the overhead of communication to every problem?
03:43:50 [talli_]
as a matter of principle in the oacs, yes
03:44:07 [talli_]
as a practical matter, what's the difference between postin on the baords and sending it as an email?
03:44:20 [talli_]
would it hurt to simply post something saying i sped this query up?
03:44:35 [talli_]
it affects the core, not just your client
03:44:37 [benadida]
for me, not much. For the signal-to-noise ratio of others, it might be a problem.
03:44:50 [talli_]
i don't see how you're doing anyone a benefit there
03:44:52 [benadida]
well, I'm testing it right now. and Don actually already mentioned it on the bboard.
03:45:09 [benadida]
so when he mentioned it, I figured I didn' treally need to mention it again.
03:45:10 [talli_]
does anyone complain about low signal to noise?
03:45:19 [talli_]
that's true
03:45:26 [talli_]
but it also shows an example of OF opacity
03:45:33 [benadida]
not, that's not true.
03:45:45 [talli_]
the only communique's from the company who is doing the largest project in the ocmmunity is from someone outside the company
03:45:49 [benadida]
I just don't feel the need to be the one communicating everything.
03:45:57 [talli_]
that's fine
03:46:14 [benadida]
what of http://dotlrn.openforce.net and our regular updates on the bboard about it?
03:46:21 [talli_]
there's nothign there
03:46:36 [talli_]
and the regular updates say it's there, go get it
03:46:50 [talli_]
look, i'm trying not to be bitter and offer comments that you asked for
03:46:56 [benadida]
concretely, what do you want to see?
03:46:59 [benadida]
1. more docs online
03:46:59 [talli_]
i tried before to be diplomatic on the bboards
03:47:03 [benadida]
2. more discussions online.
03:47:06 [benadida]
anything else?
03:47:37 [talli_]
benadida, if you haven't noticed yet, my issue is less with what is concrete and more with your behavior towards others
03:47:57 [benadida]
so you think I am the problem.
03:48:18 [talli_]
no, i think your behavior is. which is fine.
03:48:24 [talli_]
i am the head of a small company and i know the stress
03:48:36 [benadida]
what about my behavior is the problem?
03:48:41 [talli_]
i'm way too hot headed and will launch into people easily
03:48:48 [talli_]
so i don't blame you
03:48:55 [benadida]
to be more precise, what have I done that is arrogant?
03:49:02 [talli_]
but i think you need to be less secretive and more open with the community
03:49:18 [talli_]
christ, you want to know for the world? this conversation is logged, you know
03:49:37 [benadida]
I have nothing to hide.
03:49:47 [talli_]
if you want to know precisely, you can check the logs and see how many times you've made references to my productivity
03:50:13 [benadida]
I am trying to find out what issues people are having, and I have no issue doing it in public.
03:50:29 [talli_]
fine
03:50:36 [talli_]
i've given you my issues
03:50:47 [benadida]
that I'm arrogant because I've called you unproductive.
03:50:50 [benadida]
okay.
03:50:54 [talli_]
c;mon
03:51:07 [benadida]
that I'm secretive
03:51:43 [benadida]
I am honestly trying to identify some next steps to make things better here.
03:51:47 [benadida]
you don't have to like me.
03:51:54 [benadida]
but if you want to improve things, tell me what I should improve.
03:52:16 [talli_]
well, if we were all automatons, i would offer you an instruction set
03:52:16 [docwolf]
docwolf (~afarkas@adsl-34-53-191.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs
03:52:21 [talli_]
oh, cool
03:52:25 [talli_]
the peacemaker has arrived
03:52:38 [docwolf]
i actually came with napalm
03:52:52 [talli_]
and a dead harddrive
03:52:57 [docwolf]
:-(
03:53:08 [denshi]
docwolf, you lost a drive today too?
03:53:19 [docwolf]
yeah.. my travelstar in my primary machine is dying.
03:53:27 [docwolf]
i'm using a creepy mandrake box right now as a backup
03:53:49 [docwolf]
so what's going on?
03:54:05 [denshi]
talli & ben are looking for psychologists.
03:54:10 [docwolf]
aren't we all
03:54:13 [denshi]
did you get that in your rotations?
03:54:37 [docwolf]
yeah... but my advice is usually just to kick back a couple of shots of Jack.
03:54:47 [docwolf]
it's cheaper than analysis.
03:54:59 [denshi]
funny, my advice is springbank 20 year.
03:55:13 [talli_]
it's too hard to find a shrink in NYC
03:55:18 [talli_]
talli_ is now known as talli
03:55:47 [denshi]
i thought everyone in nyc was either a shrink or a dancer
03:55:58 [talli]
or jewish
03:56:20 [talli]
but i guess none of those things are really mutually exclusive
03:56:35 [denshi]
at times like this, I always complain that set theory symbols aren't part of ASCII7.
03:56:37 [talli]
anyway, benadida, it's good to get this break
03:56:50 [talli]
if you want to discuss these issues, i'd be happy to meet you for a beer
03:57:33 [benadida]
that's fine with me, although I think I'll go docwolf on you and drink a diet coke.
03:57:49 [talli]
if you have a diet coke, i'll drink a zima
03:57:58 [benadida]
now you're scaring me.
03:58:06 [talli]
so does docwolf
03:58:10 [denshi]
i'll have a rzolf energy drink
03:58:56 [denshi]
maybe the two of you should come to the austin social. texans have all kinds of innovative conflict-resolution customs.
03:59:11 [docwolf]
mechanical bull contests?
03:59:24 [talli]
customs officials?
03:59:29 [benadida]
I do want to make one thing clear: OpenForce is entirely dedicated to the open-source community. This is not an ArsDigita in the making. We know open-source, we believe in two-way open-source (contributions and distribution), and if we are absent from bboards sometimes it is because we are overwhelmed with work.
03:59:44 [benadida]
remember that we are < 10 people.
04:00:45 [denshi]
i am == 1 people
04:00:55 [denshi]
yet I give my bit.
04:01:03 [talli]
no one is questioning whether you're for OSS or not, nor whether you have many people
04:01:57 [benadida]
we give our code, too!
04:02:01 [benadida]
and we take the patches! We do!
04:02:07 [talli]
that's true as well.
04:02:51 [talli]
the point is that by not posting decision decisions that will fundamentally affect the core or the core packages (and bboards is as close to the core as a package can be) a lot of things go out of wack
04:02:58 [cro]
cro (~cro@ip-66-218-240-160.cableaz.com) has joined #openacs
04:03:01 [denshi]
i.e., a fork.
04:03:05 [denshi]
hello, cro
04:03:13 [cro]
evening all
04:03:21 [talli]
probably more than anything this is an issue of misunderstanding and miscommunication
04:03:27 [davb]
denshi: is it a fork if you can plug it in to your copy of openacs and it works?
04:03:30 [docwolf]
wow.. i've heard this story before
04:03:43 [docwolf]
and let me just say.. i'm glad that i'm 100% uninvolved :-)
04:03:51 [denshi]
okay this whole discussion has outlasted my beer supply
04:03:51 [benadida]
first of all: bboard hasn't changed *yet*.
04:03:52 [talli]
but i think that it is generally felt that much of the community is pissed that they have been kept in the dark
04:04:09 [talli]
and once things are revealed we're supposed to jump in and participate
04:04:39 [denshi]
i'll just try to add in another pathetic attempt at being productive:
04:04:41 [talli]
fine, not yet. that's even better. a chance to see it develop would be great
04:05:05 [benadida]
I don't think anyone's been kept in the dark. You yourself, Talli, were at an early meeting where we discussed our thoughts about dotLRN at an OpenACS social way early on.
04:05:29 [talli]
that was after you made the design decisions for new-portal
04:05:41 [talli]
and no one saw any source code, nor was the code released afterwards
04:06:32 [benadida]
the code wasn't released?
04:07:20 [benadida]
Let's get back to action items.
04:07:29 [docwolf]
ben, backing up for a second, i guess one question some people might have is "what's the harm of leaving a CVS tree open for anyone to browse?"
04:07:35 [benadida]
1. more posting. Okay, I will begin to fix this right away.
04:07:36 [talli]
the code wasn't released for a few months, no
04:08:13 [benadida]
You do realize that this was done under a client engagement, right?
04:08:26 [benadida]
that we had to manage many expectations at once?
04:08:36 [benadida]
there is one thing I worry about.
04:09:09 [benadida]
I worry that Sloan here has contributed money and bought into open-souce (with some obvious initial requirements for THEIR reasons), and that all they're seeing from the community is discontent with methodology.
04:09:21 [benadida]
I want to see Sloan, Berklee and others continue to pitch in money.
04:10:32 [talli]
they are building on community code
04:10:40 [denshi]
ben, nothing here in our combined vectitude has anything to do with anything 'concrete', as you've said a few times. this is just a soft, squishy matter of day-by-day interpersonal communication; like most of life. most people here feel left out, not by any matter of structural design, but by being left in the dark over time. sorry if that sucks.
04:10:41 [talli]
they should be kissing the community's ass, not the other way around
04:11:10 [talli]
that's in theory of course
04:11:14 [benadida]
Talli: I think you're very wrong about this. Sloan is paying money. They are the client.
04:11:17 [denshi]
i'll come back once mod_db compiles, in case you eastcoasters haven't ripped each other into shreads too small to pick up.
04:11:25 [benadida]
Denshi: that's fair.
04:11:35 [benadida]
I will do what I can to make up and fix what can be fixed.
04:11:41 [talli]
well, to be honest, sloan is your client, not anyone elses
04:11:53 [benadida]
Talli: that is untrue.
04:12:41 [benadida]
Denshi: at the end of the day, though, even open-source coders have to realize that certain aspects of business require secrecy. It's tough. But not all decisions can be discussed.
04:12:54 [benadida]
there's a level of respect for privacy that also needs to be considered.
04:13:05 [talli]
that's true
04:13:12 [talli]
no one's asking you to be completely open
04:13:20 [talli]
i've already mentioned the items that i would be happy with
04:13:31 [benadida]
then these items I will act on.
04:13:32 [talli]
which are design specs for any new packages that will be created
04:13:34 [benadida]
because I can.
04:14:04 [denshi]
you know, there's two kinds of groups I've found that have the largest ego boundaries in OSS projects: perl kiddies and eastcoast PhDs.
04:14:25 [talli]
but as far as the community reaching out to sloan or berklee, well i think they should be reaching out to us mroe
04:14:36 [talli]
(us being the community, not the companies, of course)
04:15:12 [benadida]
Denshi: are you saying I'm an eascoast PhD?
04:15:30 [benadida]
sadly, I cannot claim that distinction.
04:15:43 [benadida]
benadida has left #openacs
04:15:46 [benadida]
benadida (~benadida@66-108-98-245.nyc.rr.com) has joined #openacs
04:15:49 [talli]
well, i'm certainly not a perl kiddie
04:15:55 [talli]
so who knows what the fuck he's talking about
04:15:59 [davb]
here are some points I think, changes to the core need to be more open to the community. things like new-portal, which probably will go back into the core could also be more open.
04:16:14 [benadida]
whoops.
04:16:16 [benadida]
sorry.
04:16:19 [davb]
darn, i forgot what else I was going to say, that was going somewhere...
04:16:50 [denshi]
davb: drinking something tasty tonight?
04:16:58 [davb]
oh yeah, there are some very talented people in the community who might be interested in contributing.
04:17:04 [davb]
denshi: unfortunately, no.
04:17:32 [denshi]
davb: i recommend unibroue's "tres pistoles" ale on lees
04:17:36 [davb]
there are also very talented people who are probably not interested in dotlrn :)
04:18:01 [talli]
but who would be interested in something like new-portal, if i can add to davb's point
04:18:06 [benadida]
I certainly hope people don't think dotLRN is the new messiah of software. It's not. i don't expect everyone to be involved.
04:18:46 [davb]
not at all.
04:21:12 [talli]
benadida: i don't think most people are interseted in dotLRN
04:21:18 [talli]
they are interested in the oACS
04:21:34 [talli]
and dotlrn does represent at least the new face of the oacs for the short term
04:21:45 [talli]
in terms of new-portal, filemanager, etc
04:22:05 [talli]
people were hoping to take advantage of that code, and return their work, soon
04:22:22 [benadida]
and they cannot?
04:22:33 [talli]
just as you guys have been working with code that people like davb and vinod and donb and jon griffin were working in their free time on
04:22:37 [benadida]
you keep implying that we've taken and not given back. I'm a little surprised.
04:22:41 [talli]
they couldn't until recently, i think that was the issue
04:23:07 [talli]
while everyone respected that you had deadlines to meet
04:23:17 [talli]
(and believe me, i'm the first one to protect you there)
04:23:18 [benadida]
but the stuff we held back was all new code. And we didn't profit from it in the meantime, either. I don't see the issue here. We were unsure of what this was going to be altogether.
04:23:55 [talli]
the new code is the issue
04:24:17 [talli]
look, it's your perogative
04:24:27 [talli]
you can do whatever you want
04:24:37 [talli]
this is my opinion, and i think it's the general feeling of people
04:24:58 [talli]
if you don't release new code, others might build something similar and there will be discontinuity
04:25:03 [talli]
see acs-mail and acs-messaging
04:25:23 [talli]
but as i said, it's your code
04:25:28 [talli]
so you can do what you want with it
04:25:35 [docwolf]
i am still really confused
04:25:39 [docwolf]
about basic issues
04:25:51 [docwolf]
like.. setting up a public CVS tree that folks can browse
04:26:11 [benadida]
it's up! It's been up for weeks.
04:26:26 [cro]
I checked that code out myself two weeks ago.
04:26:41 [talli]
the demo i saw was in december, i think
04:26:56 [docwolf]
yes, it was during the early winter
04:26:58 [docwolf]
(i was there)
04:27:29 [benadida]
yeah, and the code was by no means ready to be released then.
04:27:40 [docwolf]
ok, that's the issue --
04:27:43 [davb]
I think talli's point (please correct me if I am wrong) is that if the code is to be open sourced anyway, why not let people at least look at it.
04:27:54 [docwolf]
what ben means by "ready for release" and what talli means seem to be two different things
04:28:11 [talli]
davb and docwolf, right
04:28:40 [docwolf]
ben, was it because of client pressure (in terms of 'secrets', etc.) that you didn't want to open the CVS tree immediately or was it other pressures?
04:28:56 [benadida]
there were many issues.
04:29:07 [benadida]
first, there was time. We simply had no time in January/February to do any of this.
04:29:33 [docwolf]
ok
04:29:37 [benadida]
second, there was readiness of code. Things were about to change so drastically, we didn't want to set the wrong impression. There is little code in common between what we had in December at the demo and what is there now.
04:30:02 [benadida]
and yes, our first responsibility was to the client.
04:30:15 [docwolf]
by 'wrong impression', do you mean about hte direction of .LRN, or that the code you had would be embarrassing to OF?
04:30:31 [docwolf]
(in terms of being unclean, sloppy, etc...)
04:30:52 [benadida]
mostly about direction of dotLRN. To some degree we needed to do cleanup, yes.
04:32:05 [davb]
so we can mostly agree that alot of these feeling were due to the original optimistic schedule posted on the bboard, and the lack of followup as the deadline approached and was passed.
04:32:09 [docwolf]
ok, i'm understanding this better.
04:32:32 [davb]
obviously now that the code is out there, things are different.
04:32:33 [docwolf]
so, ben, were you afraid that if you released the code and people saw it and said "this code blows, and the direction this project is going sucks"
04:32:36 [docwolf]
that they would defect?
04:32:39 [docwolf]
or lose interest?
04:32:57 [benadida]
we figured people would be confused. We didn't think they would think it blows.
04:33:10 [benadida]
confusion --> loss of interest.
04:33:11 [docwolf]
and that confusion would take you away from hacking
04:33:19 [docwolf]
as you had to explain stuff to people
04:33:30 [benadida]
most importantly, the confusion of a new project is the worst thing you can do to an open-source project.
04:33:35 [benadida]
you need to set a clear direction.
04:33:41 [benadida]
we didn't have that in January/February.
04:33:43 [benadida]
we have that now.
04:34:13 [docwolf]
I see, so in jan/feb the actual 'meat' of what .LRN was, was still vaporous?
04:34:34 [docwolf]
this is the problem i'm seeing -- the schedule caused a mismatch in expectations
04:35:31 [davb]
but, the openacs 4 schedule, last time I checked, hadn't been updated either.
04:35:37 [benadida]
that's perfectly understood. I wish it hadn't turned into a series of doubts about OF's intentions, but it seems that it did.
04:35:38 [denshi]
denshi is now known as denshi-coding
04:36:07 [davb]
I think we need a scheduler in the SDM that automatically emails someone when a deadline passes, so they know to revise a published schedule
04:36:34 [davb]
:)
04:36:52 [davb]
actually, I think most OS projects need this feature,
04:37:07 [cro]
I would have a raft of emails in my box. :-)
04:37:26 [davb]
aversion therapy for inexact schedules :)
04:37:42 [cro]
aversion...thats a good word for it.
04:38:18 [docwolf]
so i can see several points of view here.. all valid.
04:38:25 [docwolf]
ben took the approach of the cathedral
04:38:29 [docwolf]
up to a certain point
04:38:37 [docwolf]
but it wasn't clear when that "point" would arrive
04:38:46 [docwolf]
and the lack of a clear schedule made it confusing
04:39:23 [docwolf]
the rest of the community felt excluded from this building process
04:39:49 [docwolf]
which was a very similar case to aD...
04:40:01 [docwolf]
which may be why the reaction was so strong.
04:40:05 [benadida]
the difference being that here there are customer deadlines.
04:40:19 [benadida]
this is not an independently funded, generic project.
04:40:31 [benadida]
think of it this way: which client projects are open right now?
04:40:47 [benadida]
is there any OpenACS company today doing a client project where they're discussing things with the community?
04:41:03 [benadida]
My tentative answer is no. dotLRN is the most collaborative client project yet.
04:41:24 [benadida]
but please prove me wrong if I am wrong.
04:41:28 [docwolf]
well, AFAIK rolf does dicuss some of what he's doing for us on the webware group...
04:41:48 [docwolf]
(i am his client in this case)
04:41:59 [benadida]
since I don't know much about your stuff, I'll have to stick to the OpenACS world for now.
04:42:26 [benadida]
please show me a model of client development that an OpenACS company has followed so far that OpenForce should follow. I'd love to see how we can do better, really.
04:42:32 [benadida]
I know we can (no sarcasm here).
04:42:40 [benadida]
but let's frame the problem correctly first.
04:42:52 [docwolf]
so you've identified client pressure as being a major difficulty
04:43:09 [davb]
benadida: I think also OpenACS itself has no clear official "Process" for adding to or changing the core.
04:43:23 [benadida]
I wouldn't summarize it that way, because Sloan has been very open to open-source.
04:43:30 [benadida]
(that was for docwolf).
04:44:02 [benadida]
davb: true, but I'm not sure that's what stopped us. We didn't really make functional changes to the core. We mostly fixed bugs.
04:44:07 [benadida]
and added packages.
04:44:19 [docwolf]
benadida: so sloan would be OK with throwing open the CVS floodgates from day 1, but OF would have difficulty doing that because of the additional administrative burden?
04:44:53 [docwolf]
i'm just trying to figure out the nature of "client pressure", and how it can impede the process of interaction with the rest of the community.
04:45:15 [docwolf]
my system is a great example -- there are pieces of it that rolf knows are absolutely _not_ open source.
04:45:19 [benadida]
I think this problem is way too hard to solve in one bite.
04:45:30 [docwolf]
but there are other pieces that I really don't care about
04:45:38 [docwolf]
and if an outsider coded it for him, all the better.
04:45:53 [benadida]
your situation is different. You are developing for yourself.
04:45:57 [benadida]
you are both the coder and the client.
04:46:01 [docwolf]
not really, though
04:46:04 [docwolf]
rolf is a contractor
04:46:06 [docwolf]
he's under deadline
04:46:15 [docwolf]
(and hasn't left his room in 4 days because of it)
04:46:28 [docwolf]
I can be just as big a bastard as the worst of them
04:49:02 [davb]
thanks for coming and talking about this ben. It's time for me to go.
04:49:13 [benadida]
I'll try to be online more often.
04:49:20 [benadida]
I appreciate the feedback.
04:49:26 [talli]
benadida, i think that would be very helpful
04:49:35 [docwolf]
yeah! and tell arjun to come online, too -- we can kick him as a proxy ;-)
04:49:38 [talli]
not so much for the feedback, but just for the dialogue
04:49:41 [benadida]
Hard to imagine that people actually think I'm not working for the good of the community, but if that's the case, I'll try to solve the problem.
04:50:22 [benadida]
then it's clear I need to be online more.
04:50:26 [benadida]
I will do what I can.
04:50:45 [davb]
if there is confusion, it needs to be more clear that dotlrn is not a version of OpenACS, just an application built on openacs.
04:51:25 [benadida]
When dotLRN comes out, you will be able to download OpenACS, download the dotLRN .apm (or multiple .apms), and install them.
04:51:30 [benadida]
this is logged, you can hold me to that.
04:51:44 [benadida]
(you might need 4.5.1 or 4.5.2 given the bug fixes we're committing, but it will be OpenACS).
04:51:47 [talli]
but what about those that don't want to use dotlrn?
04:51:55 [benadida]
then they won't need to.
04:51:59 [benadida]
they can just use OpenACS.
04:52:10 [benadida]
they can even use the dotLRN contributions WITHOUT the dotLRN core.
04:52:21 [talli]
ok
04:52:24 [denshi-coding]
well, it's not that we think you're not working for the good of the community. it's just that since the french will riot at any opportunity, we need to hear from you from time to time to ensure that you're not out overturning burning cars.
04:52:26 [benadida]
because we're structuring all of our dotLRN packages first as OpenACS packages, and then wrapping them as dotLRN add-ons.
04:52:33 [cro]
Sorry if I am barging in, but it might be helpful to know that as lurker I never thought that dotLRN was a fork, I always understood it as a set of "extra" packages on top of the oACS core.
04:52:37 [benadida]
Denshi: touche :)
04:52:46 [denshi-coding]
normally, rolf would have taken that line.
04:52:55 [docwolf]
rolf is no longer rolf
04:53:01 [denshi-coding]
he is:
04:53:03 [hazmat]
geez you guys are still at it
04:53:13 [docwolf]
taliban-rzolf
04:53:18 [benadida]
Denshi: I will point out my french pride at seeing our crazy extreme right candidate easily defeated.
04:53:22 [docwolf]
he really needs a shave
04:53:22 [denshi-coding]
hazmat!! have a docwolf energy drink!
04:53:25 [benadida]
as ashamed as I was about the previous round.
04:53:37 [talli]
easily defeated in favor of a center-right candidate?
04:53:48 [davb]
good night
04:53:50 [davb]
davb has quit ("Client Exiting")
04:53:52 [benadida]
lesser of two evils...
04:53:58 [talli]
at least the parisians voted the commies in
04:54:05 [denshi-coding]
benadida: the french are funny. they still had an election in front of them, but they felt it time for a pre-emptive riot.
04:54:20 [benadida]
well, it was shocking. I was almost in tears the day of the first round.
04:54:25 [denshi-coding]
i admire people who riot ahead of schedule.
04:54:33 [denshi-coding]
my riots are always belated.
04:54:40 [benadida]
:)
04:54:48 [hazmat]
docwolf: aren't you guys using python with the oacs datamodels?
04:55:01 [denshi-coding]
sometimes i'm so far behind schedule people don't even understand what my riots are about
04:55:03 [docwolf]
i was stunned and horrified to look through the source
04:55:10 [talli]
i say we put le pen and sharon in the same room
04:55:13 [docwolf]
and find that rolf lifted the state machine for e-commerce
04:55:17 [docwolf]
from aCS
04:55:19 [talli]
but that room has to be on the titanic
04:55:37 [docwolf]
i don't know how much of it will actually go into production
04:55:44 [docwolf]
he may just be experimenting with it.
04:55:46 [hazmat]
docwolf: been there done that ;), acs ecommerce is functional, but it sure isn't pretty...
04:55:54 [docwolf]
i can't tell... he's been locked away for days.
04:56:47 [denshi-coding]
you know, docwolf, we never suspected you were this cruel
04:57:04 [docwolf]
cruel? no. just all-powerful.
04:57:11 [docwolf]
"you are free to leave at any time, rolf"
04:57:15 [benadida]
docwolf is the cruelest doc on the block.
04:57:25 [benadida]
I have posted our initial thoughts on bboard redesign, btw.
04:57:36 [talli]
thanks
04:57:55 [docwolf]
does anyone want to buy a slightly-used travelpro 32gig drive?
04:58:12 [denshi-coding]
is it even in the original shape?
04:58:22 [talli]
that's a great post, thanks a lot benadida
04:58:35 [docwolf]
"clean title, mechanic's special"
05:00:34 [benadida]
Talli: glad you like it.
05:03:37 [benadida]
alright all, I have an early meeting.
05:03:47 [benadida]
but I will leave you with some fun info we haven't released yet.
05:03:56 [benadida]
for those of you who hung out here late enough :)
05:04:01 [benadida]
http://heck.com
05:04:02 [oacs-chump]
A: http://heck.com from benadida
05:04:16 [benadida]
is our latest work at OF.
05:04:40 [benadida]
the front end runs a smooth, lean AOLserver/PG system. The back-end is a pretty intricate editorial system running OpenACS 4/PG.
05:05:07 [cro]
ben: thanks for coming by.
05:05:18 [benadida]
it's a pretty fun new approach to directories. dmoz taken to the next level.
05:05:50 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. May have an alternate box to place services on, we'll leave it down until the new box is set up.
05:06:56 [talli]
neat, congrats
05:06:59 [talli]
looks really good
05:07:11 [benadida]
feel free to pound on it and report bugs :)
05:07:26 [benadida]
we helped solve a lot of OACS/PG performance issues thanks to that development.
05:07:42 [talli]
that's great
05:07:56 [talli]
what kind of performance are you getting out of the system?
05:08:06 [benadida]
the front-end is really fast.
05:08:07 [hazmat]
it seems pretty fast.
05:08:09 [benadida]
which is what matters.
05:08:21 [benadida]
it's not OpenACS on the front end, because we want a lot less logging than OpenACS does.
05:08:39 [benadida]
and we're hoping to publish some stuff on how we do sync'ing between the OpenACS data model and the highly denormalized front-end data model.
05:09:06 [benadida]
every hit does no more than 3 queries, each query no more than 51 rows, all on a single table no joins, primary key'ed.
05:09:27 [benadida]
the back-end, though, supports dozens of editors pounding away at it all day.
05:09:34 [benadida]
adding categories, adding resources, etc...
05:09:40 [benadida]
all on straight OpenACS 4.
05:09:49 [talli]
that's very cool
05:10:07 [talli]
one of the issues that i've faced in pitching big proejcts on PG is that i don't know what the system can handle
05:10:16 [benadida]
PG can handle lots.
05:10:19 [talli]
what kinds of concurrent users do you expect it to handle?
05:10:29 [cro]
And it doesn't cluster like Oracle so all you can do is throw more hardware at it.
05:10:40 [hazmat]
benadida: it looks like the front end could have just been squid in front of the openacs
05:10:45 [cro]
(of course, you need a god-level guru to cluster Oracle...:-) )
05:11:00 [benadida]
we have to do some real benchmarks, but our initial tests show that this front end should handle 100 hits/sec on a decent-sized box.
05:11:00 [hazmat]
since the content looks semi-static from the front-end load POV
05:11:17 [cro]
ben: define "decent sized"?
05:11:26 [denshi-coding]
i've run into one guy who admins a 400GB PG database
05:11:31 [denshi-coding]
lemme find his post
05:11:34 [benadida]
dual processor, plenty of RAM, fast hard drives. Linux.
05:11:40 [benadida]
yes, right now it's mostly static.
05:11:52 [benadida]
but Squid would not be the right thing when this starts to do co-branding and all.
05:11:56 [cro]
"plenty"...2 GB? 4?
05:12:13 [benadida]
right 2GB is what I'm thinking when i say plenty right now :)
05:12:19 [cro]
ok
05:12:41 [talli]
benadida: 2 GB and dual processors for what kind of specs?
05:13:01 [benadida]
we're aiming to have the front end take 50 hits/sec, but we think it could go higher, to 100.
05:13:08 [benadida]
but I should stop now because I don't have full stats on that yet.
05:13:13 [benadida]
I'll tell you when I do.
05:13:39 [talli]
ok, cool. thanks
05:15:17 [benadida]
okay, good night all. Early meeting...
05:15:26 [cro]
'night Ben.
05:15:34 [benadida]
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05:19:50 [docwolf]
i can safely say
05:19:57 [docwolf]
without fear of refutation
05:20:05 [docwolf]
that IBM has forgotten how to build hard drives.
05:20:24 [cro]
depressing.
05:20:40 [docwolf]
more depressing is the fact that I have to fedex a new one
05:20:46 [cro]
:-)
05:20:49 [docwolf]
which will probably be just as awful as the last
05:20:52 [docwolf]
oh well.
05:22:14 [cro]
Good night everyone.
05:22:23 [cro]
cro has left #openacs
05:23:18 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. To recap, services are down while we attempt to locate an appropriate server on which to run them. Please bear with us.
05:23:25 [talli]
talli is now known as barstool
05:28:37 [hazmat]
anybody wanna be a guinea pig ? ;)
05:30:15 [denshi-coding]
always the guinea, never the pig
05:32:03 [hazmat]
i was looking for a third party test of my data model loader scripty thing
05:34:05 [hazmat]
* hazmat wonders who the second party was
06:49:46 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Services has been restored on a server where we think it will be relatively stable. Please bear with us.
06:50:33 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] We've restored to a backup which is approximately 12 hours old, according to my imperfect and somewhat tired recollection.
06:50:47 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Thanks for your patience and understanding, and thank you for using OPN!
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10:19:37 [ChanServ]
[#openacs] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
12:31:35 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Hi all. Yesterday and earlier today OPN time (UTC) we experienced a number of problems with services due to its being moved to an uncustomary OS. The move was needed since the box it had been running on was being taken out of service. Several hours of changes from yesterday will be missing from the services databases.
12:32:11 [lilo]
[GlobalNotice] Services should be relatively stable today. Please let us know if you're experiencing any problems and we'll attempt to resolve them. Thank you.
12:46:59 [davb]
davb (~chatzilla@rrcs-nys-24-97-22-203.biz.rr.com) has joined #openacs
12:49:00 [davb]
good morning
12:50:26 [til]
morning davb
12:51:18 [til]
that's interesting stuff in the irc backlog
13:05:12 [davb]
yep.
13:06:16 [til]
nice to see ben stop by here
13:06:47 [davb]
yes. it is good to hear from him.
13:08:42 [til]
i wonder what they are doing with calendar
13:09:43 [til]
should ping him again
13:09:56 [til]
i offered to add the year-view but never heard back from him
13:12:36 [til]
a non-native english speaker question: is it ok to say "freelancer programmer"? i put this on my hire-me site and now its on the first page of results when searching for this term on google
13:14:01 [davb]
hmmm. I am not really sure. I think it should be ok. What other term would you use? Consultant?
13:14:51 [davb]
interesting post from lars about acs_objects and teh CR
13:16:19 [til]
yes
13:17:33 [til]
i think the ability to store persons in the db that have no account, e.g. "person", not "user" is essential
13:17:39 [til]
though
13:17:56 [til]
but maybe there is a more efficient way to implement it
13:20:15 [davb]
til: it really depends on your application.
13:20:18 [barstool]
barstool is now known as talli
13:20:26 [davb]
maybe there is a way to implement it optionally.
13:20:40 [davb]
the regular bboard, new, faq type of site doesn't need that.
13:20:48 [davb]
s/new/news
13:20:53 [davb]
hiya talli
13:20:58 [talli]
hey davb
13:21:22 [til]
morning
13:21:49 [til]
davb: yes, i am thinking more of the intranet type of application. things like contact management, customers etc.
13:22:06 [davb]
right. I can see using that for my top secret project.
13:22:19 [til]
the current parties datamodel is very useful for that
13:22:34 [til]
davb: tell us more ;)
13:24:27 [davb]
actually that project has kinda taken a break for a little while.
13:24:51 [til]
for a current project of mine we are going to import an existing address database into oacs. those that have their email address filled in the old db will get an account, the others will just be added as persons
13:25:20 [shagster]
*grr* I need a vacation :)
13:25:42 [davb]
til: yes that I think is a common activity.
14:10:43 [markd2]
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14:33:54 [cro]
good morning
14:34:00 [markd2]
hello
14:55:42 [hazmat]
good morning
14:55:58 [talli]
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15:05:22 [markd2]
mighty morphing mega wolf
15:18:26 [hazmat]
markd2: do you have sec to try out the data model load script?
15:19:02 [markd2]
sure
15:19:06 [markd2]
which openacs should I snarf?
15:19:22 [hazmat]
any 4x distro should work, i've been using it against cvs
15:19:33 [markd2]
ok
15:19:42 [markd2]
can you point me to the page that describes the cvs download?
15:19:42 [mega-wolf]
I AM THE MEGA-WOLF
15:20:07 [mega-wolf]
megawolf: the paws of fate
15:20:16 [Spork]
wuzza wizza?
15:20:53 [hazmat]
http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/one-file?file_id=100
15:20:54 [oacs-chump]
B: http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/one-file?file_id=100 from hazmat
15:21:08 [markd2]
sweet
15:23:36 [markd2]
* markd2 downloads via cvs
15:27:07 [hazmat]
cool, cause its working just in time for you to test it ;-)
15:31:16 [hazmat]
ok, the only caveat seems to be i have the logging going to the directory above the execution directory :(
15:31:23 [markd2]
ok, I got the acs-core downloaded
15:33:30 [hazmat]
* hazmat uploads the script
15:33:39 [hazmat]
http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/one-file.tcl?file_id=366
15:33:39 [oacs-chump]
C: http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/one-file.tcl?file_id=366 from hazmat
15:33:49 [hazmat]
cro: openacs datamodel loading script
15:33:51 [hazmat]
asdjflkasjef
15:34:08 [hazmat]
it needs python2.2
15:34:15 [hazmat]
i guess thats another caveat :(
15:34:58 [hazmat]
so basically edit the conf dictionaries install_package values to name the packages you want
15:35:15 [hazmat]
and it will figure out the dependencies and load the data models in the proper order
15:35:28 [talli]
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15:35:31 [davb]
hazmat: do you imagine this can be used eventually for a openacs installer?
15:36:21 [hazmat]
umm.. i hadn't considered it, but i suppose it could, if you mean an installer that installed all of the openacs... i dunno, i thought most people were happy with the current aolserver installer???
15:36:56 [hazmat]
all of the openacs, including dependencies like aolserver and the aolserver-modules, and perhaps postgres.
15:36:59 [davb]
for do-it-yourselfers, maybe. The packagers (RPM, DEB etc) might need an automated installer.
15:37:21 [davb]
I know there is something already for the RPMs
15:37:27 [davb]
but I think it uses aolserver.
15:37:29 [hazmat]
thats the problem is that you have to integrate with those variety of package formats
15:37:37 [davb]
ah.
15:37:44 [hazmat]
vs. doing something clean like installing it all from source..
15:37:46 [davb]
good point :)
15:38:19 [shagster]
hazmat, You mean something like I started with the AOLserver distro?
15:38:20 [shagster]
:)
15:39:00 [hazmat]
shagster: what distro?
15:39:13 [hazmat]
* hazmat is lost
15:39:42 [hazmat]
* hazmat sincerely hopes his commute this morning is better than yesterday (3hrs)
15:40:08 [shagster]
http://uptime.openacs.org/aolserver-openacs
15:40:08 [oacs-chump]
D: http://uptime.openacs.org/aolserver-openacs from shagster
15:40:42 [hazmat]
shagster: thats awesome
15:40:53 [hazmat]
you should get a copy of this onto openacs.org
15:40:56 [shagster]
I'm really just waiting for the final openacs 4.5 to finalize it
15:41:05 [hazmat]
its a bitch tracking down the dependencies currently
15:41:29 [shagster]
Yea, I know, that is why I created that...to save my own laziness :)
15:41:42 [hazmat]
the mark of any good programmer or sysadmin ;)
15:42:16 [shagster]
or me :) heh
15:45:13 [Spork]
geez
15:45:18 [Spork]
it takes a long ass time to compile X
15:47:57 [hazmat]
davb: you know i think will go ahead and make a script installer, that sounds like fun
15:48:19 [davb]
neat.
15:48:55 [hazmat]
shagster: do you mind if i hardcode the url to your aolserver distro??
15:50:01 [hazmat]
i guess i should upload it to a place with free bandwidth
15:51:39 [hazmat]
* hazmat heads out to work
15:51:41 [hazmat]
cheers
15:52:17 [markd2]
86% through downloaidng pythong II
15:57:33 [denshi-coding]
pythong?
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15:57:57 [markd2]
it's the sexy version on python
15:58:51 [markd2]
yay. downloaded
15:58:52 [markd2]
now building
16:06:34 [denshi-coding]
denshi-coding is now known as denshi
16:15:17 [Spork]
Where's rbm?
16:15:48 [markd2]
I think his folks are in town
16:15:56 [markd2]
and I think he's taking the GRE here soon
16:16:04 [Spork]
i c
16:16:06 [markd2]
yay. pythonG installed
16:16:09 [markd2]
C:
16:16:09 [oacs-chump]
http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/one-file.tcl?file_id=366
16:17:55 [Spork]
* Spork compiles gtk
16:20:18 [markd2]
hazmat: do I need any extra libs?
16:20:25 [markd2]
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.2/xml/sax/__init__.py", line 93, in make_parser
16:20:26 [markd2]
raise SAXReaderNotAvailable("No parsers found", None)
16:21:36 [docwolf]
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16:21:40 [markd2]
* markd2 is a python n00b
17:11:39 [jim]
-wow-... wotta scrollback...
17:12:05 [markd2]
we aim to please
17:12:12 [jim]
I guess it's nice to know who the factions are :)
17:14:18 [denshi]
but it's nicer to know which factions have the guns
17:14:25 [jim]
hah :)
17:14:25 [denshi]
s/guns/cookies/
17:14:47 [jim]
I want to know which factions have the thai food :)
17:15:16 [denshi]
austin doesn't have good thai food :(
17:16:27 [jim]
one of the days of my bootcamp at the berkeley aD office, they had massive amounts of yellow curry chicken...
17:17:00 [denshi]
i nearly became a canadian after eating thai food in toronto
17:17:11 [jim]
hmmm
17:17:24 [denshi]
luckily the cops weren't in on the emigration scam, and towed my car
17:23:52 [lethedrinker]
markd2: hmm...
17:24:01 [lethedrinker]
that bytes.
17:24:12 [lethedrinker]
you need expat it looks like.
17:24:25 [lethedrinker]
i thought python2.1+ came with it, but apparently not
17:24:56 [lethedrinker]
markd2 looks like you need to install pyxml.sf.net
17:25:19 [lethedrinker]
its a pretty simple install, untar and run python2.2 setup.py install
17:26:15 [markd2]
ok
17:27:41 [markd2]
happen to have a pointer to the source?
17:27:47 [markd2]
sourceforge.net isn't respnding for me
17:31:06 [jim]
sourceforge.net at least returns pings...
17:31:32 [jim]
seems to be up
17:31:38 [lethedrinker]
works for me
17:31:54 [markd2]
sourceforge works about 20% of the time with my older netscap browser :-(
17:32:03 [markd2]
lemme try lynx on my colo box
17:32:43 [jim]
netscape has this annoying habit of uncompressing .gzs for me... not good when other things need to verify by size of gz
17:35:45 [talli]
talli (~chatzilla@pool-162-83-238-34.ny5030.east.verizon.net) has joined #openacs
17:39:44 [davb]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56499-2002May8.html
17:39:45 [oacs-chump]
E: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56499-2002May8.html from davb
17:40:02 [davb]
E:|A Visual Rather Than Verbal Future
17:40:02 [oacs-chump]
titled item E
17:40:28 [davb]
E: researchers say it is diffcult to think and speak at the same time, so it is not easier to intereact with a computer via speech
17:40:28 [oacs-chump]
added comment E1
17:42:38 [markd2]
'duh'
17:43:11 [davb]
to that article?
17:44:26 [markd2]
yeah
17:44:32 [davb]
E: http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/photomesa/#download - photomesa image browsing software referred to in the article
17:44:32 [oacs-chump]
added comment E2
17:44:49 [markd2]
I know i can keep a half-dozen electronic conversations going
17:44:57 [davb]
markd2: I thought it was interesting. I never realized that. there is more info about the visualization stuff they are working on.
17:44:57 [markd2]
but one voice conversation shuts *everything* down
17:45:05 [davb]
true.
17:46:06 [davb]
cool that software is Java, which while it _IS_ java, at least runs on Windows, Mac and Unix
17:46:39 [davb]
I have to try that out now that I have a digital camera.
17:57:05 [donb]
donb (~donb@dsl-dhogaza.pacifier.net) has joined #openacs
17:59:25 [markd2]
B:
17:59:26 [oacs-chump]
http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/one-file?file_id=100
18:06:10 [markd2]
hazmat, you awayke?
18:06:12 [markd2]
awake,
18:14:34 [markd2]
C:
18:14:34 [oacs-chump]
http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/one-file.tcl?file_id=366
18:20:39 [Spork]
heh
18:20:44 [Spork]
It's still compiling something
18:20:59 [markd2]
heh
18:21:07 [markd2]
I worked on a project once where a full rebuild was bout 10 hours
18:23:14 [Spork]
wow
18:23:30 [Spork]
So like a really small change took over 10 hours of dev time?
18:24:08 [mega-wolf]
accursed IBM. a pox on their platters.
18:25:02 [mega-wolf]
:-(
18:25:09 [markd2]
nah - incremental compilations
18:25:17 [markd2]
linking took forever, until we bought an incremental linker
18:25:38 [markd2]
*but*, if someone changed really-central-header-file.h, it triggered a full rebuild
18:29:10 [lethedrinker]
markd2: stil here
18:29:13 [lethedrinker]
whats up
18:29:17 [lethedrinker]
how did it go
18:29:24 [lethedrinker]
* lethedrinker is hazmat
18:29:32 [lethedrinker]
whilst at work
18:29:42 [markd2]
ah. gotcha
18:29:47 [markd2]
I figured ya'll were seperate individuals
18:29:55 [lethedrinker]
we share the hive mind
18:29:56 [markd2]
check your yahoo mail
18:30:16 [markd2]
I was wondering what that buzzing sound was
18:30:38 [lethedrinker]
which modules are you trying to install
18:30:47 [markd2]
the default in the script - bboard and news
18:31:01 [markd2]
got a 'key error' in general-commentss
18:31:03 [lethedrinker]
wierd, i ran those earlier and it worked fine.
18:31:20 [lethedrinker]
yah the script tries to insert an 's' if it can't find the normal variant
18:31:32 [lethedrinker]
i needed it because some of the info-files have errors.
18:31:41 [markd2]
heh
18:31:41 [lethedrinker]
acs-event as opposed to acs-events
18:32:43 [lethedrinker]
markd2: thanks for testing this out!!, i'll will work on it and get a new copy up there latter today, with some more useful error messages, and more robust behavior.. for the moment, i must work.
18:32:52 [markd2]
okie dokey
18:33:04 [markd2]
drop me an email (markd@badgertronics.com) when you want me to take another spin
18:43:30 [davb]
lethedrinker: shouldn't we just fix the info files? :)
18:43:52 [davb]
mark, you just put your email address in the log :)
18:44:52 [Spork]
paje, attack!
18:44:52 [markd2]
oh well
18:44:59 [markd2]
* paje bites Spork's ankles
18:45:01 [Spork]
ouch
18:45:07 [Spork]
* Spork looks around for paje
18:45:10 [markd2]
* paje pulls Spork's hair
18:45:11 [Spork]
nope, not here?
18:45:14 [markd2]
* paje goes nuts
18:45:15 [Spork]
* Spork looks under a rock
18:45:32 [markd2]
* paje pulls out a flame-thrower
18:49:10 [Spork]
* Spork kicks mark in the groin and hides behind dave
18:50:20 [denshi]
dude. I step out for an hour and this place devolves into groin-kicking.
18:51:12 [davb]
this is a cool site:
18:51:20 [davb]
http://www.harlem.org/index.html
18:51:21 [oacs-chump]
F: http://www.harlem.org/index.html from davb
18:51:32 [davb]
the interface is so simple, but really interesting.
18:54:03 [Spork]
* Spork bites denshi
19:02:14 [lethedrinker]
davb: your right we probably should just fix the info files, for some reason that thought never occurred to me ;)
19:22:23 [Spork]
Anyone have a good bank they recommend?
19:23:28 [davb]
Spork: no.
19:23:45 [Spork]
Dang
19:23:51 [Spork]
i'm not pleased with citibank
19:23:59 [Spork]
bunch of idiots
19:24:28 [davb]
i use a credit union.
19:25:49 [markd2]
I hide my cash under my bed
19:26:31 [Spork]
I was thinking that
19:26:38 [Spork]
but I don't think I will make any money
19:27:31 [davb]
you don't make money by using a bank. they charge you.
19:27:40 [davb]
unless you have over $100,000 or so.
19:27:44 [Spork]
nah
19:32:37 [lethedrinker]
its only 10k at BoA
19:32:51 [markd2]
$2k at some northern VA banks
19:34:09 [davb]
no, i mean where the fees don't cost more than the interest :)
19:39:38 [markd2]
hmmm, I don't pay any fees
19:39:43 [markd2]
I don't use ATMs either
19:45:06 [Spork]
I don't pay fees
19:45:12 [Spork]
and they give me free checks
19:46:29 [davb]
not bad.
19:46:39 [davb]
small banks usually have better customer service.
19:48:03 [Spork]
it's Citibank
19:48:07 [Spork]
THey're not exactly small
19:48:56 [davb]
yah
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19:57:22 [jim]
davb: ayh/
19:57:23 [jim]
?
19:57:56 [davb]
hi
19:58:00 [davb]
jim
19:58:03 [jim]
cool :)
19:58:06 [jim]
hi...
20:05:12 [jim]
(of SICP)
20:05:28 [davb]
interesting.
20:05:37 [davb]
I have no resources to do it though :(
20:05:48 [denshi]
what are they recorded on?
20:06:00 [jim]
not totally sure
20:06:21 [jim]
but I logged my conversation with the student
20:06:53 [jim]
(he is going to give me an idea of what media and how many hours of stuff they are)
20:06:56 [denshi]
are we done talking banks?
20:07:34 [jim]
* jim defers to talking banks... amazing at what technology can do...
20:11:34 [davb]
which would be nice.
20:14:11 [davb]
heh
20:14:22 [davb]
hence "OpenCourseware"
20:15:13 [davb]
you didn't have to comment that. you have said it before :)
20:16:11 [davb]
denshi: unfortunately I suspect that is the stuff they want to keep, the course outlines, lecture notes, etc... they are willing to share.
20:16:39 [davb]
but maybe not.
20:19:25 [markd2]
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20:19:48 [denshi]
turns out that across academia, disserations meet a watery grave almost immediately after publication
20:20:02 [davb]
seems kinda silly
20:20:13 [denshi]
I don't recall seeing that in grad school's colorful brochoure
20:21:13 [denshi]
i mean, shit, if the only people who will ever read *my* disseration are the 3-5 guys on my defense board, I'll just fill 200 pages with blackmail material, flattery, and outright lies.
20:21:38 [denshi]
someone remind me where the good part of our educational system is located?
20:22:32 [davb]
i'll have to see what empire state college.
20:22:50 [davb]
I will make sure anything I write I can also publish it on the web.
20:23:29 [talli]
a university has money for one reason
20:23:41 [talli]
to pay for lavish alumni parties
20:23:48 [davb]
to get more money?
20:23:51 [talli]
so the alumni will give the university more money
20:23:51 [davb]
time to go
20:23:56 [davb]
i was right.
20:23:57 [davb]
bye
20:23:58 [davb]
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20:43:51 [Spork]
wow
20:43:59 [Spork]
I got X working in Gentoo
20:44:07 [mega-wolf]
did it take 3 days to compile?
20:44:22 [Spork]
lol
20:44:22 [Spork]
no
20:44:24 [Spork]
well
20:44:28 [Spork]
half a day
20:44:31 [mega-wolf]
yikes!
20:44:41 [Spork]
It'
20:44:46 [Spork]
it needed all the dependencies
20:47:11 [jim]
what's nice in debian is you can say "install all the packages needed in the building of package foo"
20:48:09 [Spork]
gentoo doesn't need to be told
20:48:11 [Spork]
it just does it
20:48:15 [Spork]
it's recursive
20:48:24 [Spork]
I told it to "emerge xfce"
20:48:31 [cro]
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20:52:23 [_djg_]
die arschgeige
20:52:23 [jim]
so it's got ports-with-depends?
20:52:43 [_djg_]
uh...insult into the wrong window
20:53:53 [Spork]
yeah
20:53:58 [Spork]
it's like FreeBSD ports
21:25:17 [Psychephylax]
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21:27:40 [Psychephylax]
Linux localhost 2.4.19-r1 #1 SMP Wed May 8 12:55:09 EST 2002 i686 GenuineIntel
21:39:34 [benadida]
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21:43:18 [lethedrinker]
ola benadida
21:44:32 [benadida]
hey there.
21:52:25 [jim]
benadida: Hi. I met you in SF once...
21:52:36 [benadida]
at the aD thing?
21:52:46 [jim]
yes
21:53:01 [jim]
the aD guy was talking about java
21:53:45 [benadida]
yep, those meetings were fun :)
21:53:46 [jim]
so this must have been close to beginning of 2001
21:53:53 [benadida]
April 2001.
21:53:59 [benadida]
April 10, in fact, my friend's birthday :)
21:54:06 [jim]
cool :)
21:54:54 [jim]
benadida: I reviewed the log of I guess your status report... I have a few comments...
21:55:15 [benadida]
shoot.
21:56:23 [jim]
one, I believe it's -crucial- for openacs to be quite stable in the released versions, and also to -appear- so: presently, there are problems with deleting things, especially package instances and packages
21:57:24 [benadida]
that's very true.
21:57:39 [benadida]
it's always a balance, right? Release too late, and people lose enthusiasm. Too early, and it's not stable enough.
21:57:50 [jim]
it would be nice for the person installing and experimenting to be able to create apps, mount them, play with them, unmount them and -delete- them
21:58:48 [benadida]
yep. Would you be available to test some of this stuff?
21:59:15 [jim]
but not just experimentors: howbout if you are demoing capabilities... Dan Demoer creates/mounts an app, Nancy Newperson says, Cool! get rid of it now, and I wanna try to do the same thing you just did!"
22:00:05 [benadida]
agreed.
22:00:08 [jim]
(I was trying to do remote demos, and when I found for the first time that I could not delete apps, that called overall core stability into question)
22:00:34 [benadida]
I wouldn't use the word stability, but I understand your point, absolutely.
22:00:53 [jim]
oc, it turned out that it was in fact stable in all ways except deleting...
22:01:10 [benadida]
right, missing feature :).
22:01:45 [benadida]
I think no one will disagree with you here. It's all a matter of priorities. If you (or anyone else) wants to jump in to help out with this, I don't think you'll see anyone complaining!
22:02:10 [jim]
I did use the word "stability" when I first was unable to delete (showing me an error page), because I had no information at that time about what was working and what was not
22:02:47 [jim]
I was convinced that the core functionality was still not ready for primetime
22:03:26 [jim]
(Now, I'm building a site using oacs-4 and just avoiding deleting things, no problems so far)
22:03:50 [jim]
but you see how stability can be called into question?
22:04:06 [benadida]
yes, certainly. Mostly a feature is advertised that doesn't work. If at least it weren't advertised, the appearance would be far better.
22:04:24 [jim]
yes, absolutely.
22:04:32 [jim]
now about that...
22:05:31 [jim]
we're looking into ways of dealing with the problem, one thing that was suggested was to use a service contract to advertise/expose package-specific delete functions
22:06:02 [benadida]
yeah, this goes in the direction of having package APIs. I'm all for that, but that's a big change that will have to wait past 4.5
22:07:30 [jim]
when we presented it, someone said "WAIT! Wait! I want in on the contract because I want to divide package services much mroe finely grained, such that apps can be pieced together without a programmer!"
22:07:50 [jim]
so...
22:07:56 [jim]
I'm stuck :)
22:08:00 [benadida]
wow, that's very ambitious.
22:08:22 [benadida]
you have to start smaller, IMO. Even on dotLRN packages, where we had freedom to define package APIs, it was hard to go beyond simple ones.
22:08:44 [benadida]
the idea of magical modularity where apps just plug into each other seamlessly... it's all very nice. But it's not exactly easy or automatic.
22:09:03 [jim]
yeah, me, all I wanted to do was provide package data vacuumers...
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22:10:00 [jim]
I can see that the moment you come out with something, a refactoring opportunity will immediately be found and advancede
22:11:08 [jim]
to get the seamless pluggability, you'll need much more rigid standards, and everyone will have to participate
22:11:11 [jim]
OK, so you see my first comment :)
22:11:25 [benadida]
right, start small, build bigger later.
22:12:15 [jim]
(summarized, wanna be able to delete apps that have data in them || opportunity for much larger functionality)
22:12:48 [benadida]
I don't think adding ability to delete apps really gives you a whole lot of ground gained on the other issue. Thus, not worth packaging the two together.
22:14:30 [jim]
comment #2... Just as contributing code back into the community is key for allowing free software developers to play and develop, documentation must be complete so they can look things up. Having said that, the fact the api browser now works in oacs-4.5 is a very good advance
22:16:49 [jim]
one specific example of not-completeness, is the -optional flag for form::element create is not documented, but it is used in the templating demo
22:17:26 [benadida]
So, I would say something like that is a detail which should get fixed, but which shouldn't prevent a release. It's really hard to be complete on things like this. Roberto and Vinod have done quite a lot on docs already.
22:18:31 [jim]
originally I hypothesized template::form create -optional ( ... ) must be deprecated; I ruled that out in my mind when I saw its use so prolifically in the form demo pages
22:20:08 [jim]
That's fair; it is a small detail.
22:22:16 [jim]
given that there may be other small details such as this one, it might be a good thing to collect them into a big pile to be resolved at once, then do that on a periodic basis; at the very least twice per release
22:23:15 [jim]
i.e., do twice { wait for pile to get big; process each item in pile }
22:23:16 [benadida]
yeah, you can also comment directly on the doc pages on openacs.org.
22:23:42 [jim]
could be a way of building said pile
22:24:13 [jim]
can I comment on api listings?
22:24:14 [til]
hi
22:24:29 [benadida]
I'm not sure, but if not, we should allow it.
22:25:04 [til]
so what about the -optional flag's documentation? is it fixed already? if not I'd at least enter it in the sdm ...
22:27:02 [jim]
yes. this would help a great deal... that would change the algorithm to: for each access to a specific API function doc page, do { read source of function; note what docs say; comment on any missing items }
22:27:26 [jim]
til: Hi...
22:28:14 [til]
* til sees openacs.org/doc for the first time and survives a heart attack
22:28:35 [til]
that's impressive, wow! commenting enabled too
22:29:18 [jim]
til: the other day, someone came to get help on a form issue that boiled down to creating an optional form element... -optional used in demo pages but not documented in the element create function api listing page
22:29:31 [jim]
so this is like one day old
22:33:10 [jim]
benadida: those are all the comments I have for now... I didn't want to hog this much of your time, but glad to let you know about these.
22:34:15 [benadida]
you didn't hog my time, I appreciate them.
22:34:35 [benadida]
I can't say I have really led OACS dev lately, it's been Don far more than I, but I will relay these issues to him.
22:35:39 [jim]
ok, so do you want to be made aware of issues at this level of granularity (i.e., that of the second comment; I think you needed to hear the first one)
22:35:43 [jim]
?
22:36:12 [benadida]
if you feel there is no other way for you to give feedback, then it's good to bring it up with one of the gatekeepers. Our goal is then to provide a way for you to provide this granular feedback.
22:36:33 [jim]
cool
22:39:22 [jim]
ok, not sure how to express this one... I notice you have docs for several versions of oacs on the web site... would it make sense to try to provide an API browser for each?
22:39:36 [jim]
and if so, enable commenting
22:39:47 [benadida]
api browser for v3 is hard, given that the ad_proc construct isn't there.
22:40:09 [til]
jim: i vaguely remember a message about that, yes. you mean /doc/acs-templating/api/element.html, right? because in api-doc for element::create there is not much text at all
22:40:50 [jim]
ok, so it never had an api browser? ok, so that leaves 4.5 and what else?
22:42:35 [benadida]
v3 had some level of browsing with proc_doc. But it was hardly enforced everywhere.
22:43:02 [jim]
til: I was more thinking about /api-doc/proc-view?proc=template%3a%3aelement%3a%3acreate
22:43:38 [til]
jim: yeah that's the one i meant with "not much text at all"
22:44:09 [benadida]
I'll be back on later. cya guys.
22:44:11 [jim]
it looks like you have 3.x, 4.5, and some install docs... so 4.5 is the one
22:44:15 [benadida]
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22:50:02 [til]
in my never ending quest for the least important bug report i'll enter the -optional issue in the sdm now
22:50:42 [jim]
okok, point taken :)
22:51:07 [til]
;)
22:51:30 [jim]
but this became "give us an api browser for 4.5 and let us comment the pages"
22:52:32 [til]
the problem is that acs-templating has all it's docs in doc/ and none in the api-documentation
22:53:08 [til]
commentable docs are cool, yes
22:54:31 [til]
dunno if it is optimal for the api-browser though, since i guess people tend to use /api-doc/ on their specific installations in order to see _their_ version of the procs, so the comments would be missed a lot of times
22:54:59 [jim]
<possiblyneedlesswhine>there should be a choice!</possiblyneedlesswhine>
22:55:13 [til]
<ack/>
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