IRC log of openacs on 2002-05-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:16:06 [denshi]
denshi (~chatzilla@cs6625176-26.austin.rr.com) has joined #openacs
00:26:08 [denshi]
denshi has quit ()
00:38:37 [talilee]
talilee is now known as toffice
00:50:18 [mega-wolf]
where is paje?
00:50:26 [mega-wolf]
paje, come back!
01:07:33 [Tuesdayphylax]
paje paje paje
01:07:37 [Tuesdayphylax]
* Tuesdayphylax dances to salsa
01:16:49 [Tuesdayphylax]
Benny Goodman kicks ass
01:22:44 [denshi]
denshi (~chatzilla@cs6625176-26.austin.rr.com) has joined #openacs
01:22:59 [rbm]
spider-man is really cool
01:23:22 [rbm]
Thine wish is paje's command
01:23:28 [paje]
paje (~paje@slxwy.dorms.usu.edu) has joined #openacs
01:23:35 [rbm]
paje: welcome back
01:23:35 [paje]
rbm: excuse me?
01:23:51 [Tuesdayphylax]
moo!
01:26:28 [rbm]
bbiab
01:28:06 [denshi]
paje, botsmack.
01:28:06 [paje]
* paje slumps into a purple haze
01:28:31 [Tuesdayphylax]
botsmack?
01:28:31 [paje]
* paje slumps into a purple haze
01:28:33 [Tuesdayphylax]
lol
01:28:37 [Tuesdayphylax]
botsnack
01:28:41 [Tuesdayphylax]
paje, botsnack!
01:28:42 [paje]
thanks Tuesdayphylax :)
01:28:48 [Tuesdayphylax]
paje, attack!
01:28:48 [paje]
* paje bites Mark's ankle
01:30:10 [mega-wolf]
paje!! where have you been?
01:31:51 [denshi]
nevermind that, watch this:
01:32:03 [denshi]
rzolf, codersnack!
01:32:16 [denshi]
see, nothing.
01:32:42 [denshi]
it's enough to attribute rzolf with free will.
01:34:25 [Tuesdayphylax]
LOl
01:34:26 [mega-wolf]
rzolf is getting coffee, or something
01:34:32 [Tuesdayphylax]
paje, sit down
01:34:33 [paje]
Tuesdayphylax: huh?
01:34:35 [Tuesdayphylax]
bah
01:34:38 [Tuesdayphylax]
paje, sit
01:34:38 [paje]
* paje sits on barstool
01:34:43 [Tuesdayphylax]
paje, get up
01:34:43 [paje]
* paje get off of barstool
01:34:58 [denshi]
paje, gitdown!
01:34:58 [paje]
gitfunky
01:35:07 [mega-wolf]
a maximized 800x600 web pane is 770 pixels, yes?
01:36:00 [denshi]
more like 770 x 460 = 354200 pixels
01:36:28 [mega-wolf]
thanks
01:36:32 [denshi]
i guess after banner ads, then yes, 770.
01:36:37 [mega-wolf]
just checking for the cross-wise dimension
01:36:48 [mega-wolf]
since there is nothing more annoying than horizontal scrolling
01:36:52 [denshi]
i think you're correct.
01:37:20 [denshi]
of course, the new browsers are all about vertical toolbars, so you're in trouble once again.
01:37:28 [mega-wolf]
right
01:37:40 [mega-wolf]
but my assumption is most people with 800x600 do their utmost to preserve screen real-estate
01:37:49 [mega-wolf]
and quickly kill the toolbar
01:37:55 [denshi]
good assumption. i hadn't considered that.
01:38:00 [mega-wolf]
otherwise, the web would become a total disaster
01:38:06 [denshi]
'become'?
01:38:09 [mega-wolf]
(like, you couldn't even view cnn.com properly)
01:38:10 [mega-wolf]
hehe
01:38:16 [denshi]
paje, total disaster.
01:38:16 [paje]
denshi: huh?
01:38:30 [mega-wolf]
paje want a cracker?
01:38:31 [paje]
mega-wolf: wish i knew
01:38:47 [denshi]
paje, jinsai o shitero!
01:38:47 [paje]
denshi: excuse me?
01:39:01 [denshi]
rbm: how do I make paje destroy the net?
01:39:20 [denshi]
I like that coffee idea. bbiaw
01:44:22 [talli]
talli has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
01:52:06 [talli]
talli (~chatzilla@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs
02:18:39 [davb]
davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
02:19:20 [talli]
hey davb
02:19:27 [davb]
hi talli
02:21:03 [Tuesdayphylax]
hey dave
02:21:12 [Tuesdayphylax]
werd talli
02:21:24 [talli]
yo Tuesdayphylax
02:21:28 [talli]
denshi: you still around?
02:21:42 [Tuesdayphylax]
Tuesdayphylax is now known as Paydaophylax
02:22:49 [davb]
hi Paydaophylax
02:26:37 [denshi]
yo talli
02:26:51 [talli]
hey denshi
02:26:58 [talli]
have you had a chance to look at the APR?
02:27:30 [denshi]
yes
02:27:36 [denshi]
it's an excellent piece of C
02:28:13 [denshi]
have you had a chance to listen to the gorillaz?
02:29:03 [talli]
sexmob plays a gorilla song
02:29:11 [talli]
* talli crosses himself at the mention of Sexmob
02:29:19 [talli]
so the APR is a very good tool, huh?
02:29:46 [talli]
would you advocate it's use?
02:30:14 [denshi]
just a sec
02:30:51 [denshi]
for momentum, or elsewhere
02:30:52 [denshi]
?
02:32:44 [talli]
momentum
02:32:44 [paje]
momentum is that the ical thing?
02:32:56 [talli]
paje, forget momentum
02:32:56 [paje]
talli: I forgot momentum
02:33:12 [talli]
paje, Momentum is the project to build a Free Calendar Server
02:33:12 [paje]
OK, talli.
02:34:45 [denshi]
paje, again!
02:34:45 [paje]
* paje spanks talli
02:37:01 [denshi]
i'd say that if you're going to use C, you should definitely use the APR
02:37:20 [talli]
ok, i'm pushing C hardcore
02:37:31 [talli]
will you swing by the momentum channel tomorrow and mention that
02:37:48 [denshi]
time?
02:37:48 [paje]
Tue May 7 20:38:31 2002
02:38:06 [denshi]
thanks, paje. you're so helpful. botsnack.
02:41:46 [talli]
denshi: what does the APR provide developers?
02:42:43 [denshi]
first and foremost a common API to do shared mem, threads, locking, etc, all the multi-proc stuff across different operating systems.
02:44:25 [denshi]
secondly network functions
02:44:41 [denshi]
strings and such
02:45:34 [denshi]
maybe I should have said: zeroth and even more foremost, a bunch of C data structures, like variable arrays, tables, rings, stacks, etc.
02:46:51 [denshi]
and of course a growing library with xml, sha1, etc
02:47:22 [denshi]
sadly, it lacks bagels
02:49:09 [Paydaophylax]
mmm
02:49:11 [Paydaophylax]
bagels
02:50:29 [denshi]
comparing that to swiping code from aolserver, nsd offers an existent event loop you could play with, but that might actually be a negative depending on how much you need to change.
02:53:51 [talli]
denshi: thanks
02:54:14 [talli]
can you speak really quickly to what it provides in terms of strings
02:54:56 [talli]
i *really* want to advocate the APR because, as you say, it's going to grow and grow
02:55:17 [denshi]
yup. you get to tie into that growth pattern.
02:55:30 [talli]
apache2 seems to be a massive step up in excellence, and given that it already owns the server market, i can't see the APR getting less popular
02:55:51 [talli]
the fact that it not only provides portability across unices but also across platforms is a big win too
02:58:40 [talli]
denshi: you mind writing up a summary? i'd massively appreciate it
02:58:50 [talli]
the APR also supports development in C++, right?
02:58:59 [denshi]
ummm...
02:59:04 [talli]
how is their threading model?
02:59:20 [denshi]
there's not a diff between C and C++ in, say threading.
02:59:51 [denshi]
you can largely consider the two languages equivalent in this regard.
03:00:10 [talli]
well, those were two different questions
03:03:24 [denshi]
i'll do a short writeup later tonight or tomorrow. I have to get back into the practice of writing proposals
03:05:22 [talli]
cool
03:05:28 [talli]
did you ping that game gig?
03:05:53 [denshi]
no. there are lots of people better at that than me.
03:06:31 [denshi]
basically I would spend the 3 month contract learning everything. no such a deal.
03:07:06 [denshi]
oh, that reminds me. a friend of mine in town works on web systems for non-profits
03:07:42 [talli]
oh yeah? does he want to give up and give his contracts to Musea?
03:07:49 [talli]
does he make lots of money doing it?
03:07:50 [denshi]
he just got married, but when he's back in town I'll try to hook him up with some museatech juice and docwolf's energy drinks
03:08:06 [denshi]
no idea
03:08:26 [talli]
married huh?
03:08:49 [denshi]
but maybe he'll join the little cluster of OACS companies, and use his contracts to extend OACS
03:14:35 [hazmat]
museatech juice?
03:15:18 [talli]
it's like Spanish Fly, only sexier
03:16:01 [denshi]
it's sort of the alcoholic equivalent of "Nuke 'em 'till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark!"
03:19:16 [davb]
that's enough for me. goodnight
03:19:46 [davb]
davb has quit ("Client Exiting")
03:20:52 [denshi]
i gues davb's not much of a drinker
03:22:57 [denshi]
talli, what and when do you think about the austin social?
03:23:15 [talli]
well, i need to be in Nashville on the morning of the 15th
03:24:45 [hazmat]
how bout something in cali?
03:25:26 [denshi]
hazmat: we tried that already. the mosquitos nearly killed us.
03:25:45 [talli]
* talli is still itching...
03:26:04 [hazmat]
must have been in the north.. socal seems pretty barren of them.
03:26:24 [hazmat]
i think the smog helps regulate...
03:26:41 [hazmat]
aren't their tons of bugs in texas?
03:26:45 [denshi]
in Los Angeles, something is always burning.
03:27:05 [hazmat]
* hazmat recalls getting eaten alive while in houston last summer
03:27:30 [denshi]
talli, has there ever been an oacs social on a weekend? they all seem to have been on weekdays.
03:27:54 [talli]
hmmm... yeah, they are usually on weekdays to get people coming after work
03:28:34 [talli]
don't see why weekends can't work too
03:30:45 [hazmat]
hmm.. interesting zope product.. sponsored by euro commission on computer assisted learning. http://fle3.uiah.fi/
03:47:52 [talli]
yet another web learning environment...
04:03:32 [hazmat]
just what the world needed.
04:10:01 [Paydaophylax]
You know you need to use unix more.....
04:10:08 [Paydaophylax]
....when you don't remember how to compile stuff
04:10:53 [hazmat]
talli: what sort of reporting are you lookng for?
04:44:00 [talli]
hazmat: the reporting stuff i'm looking for are things that chop and dice data
04:44:10 [talli]
so doing data cuts and comparisons
04:44:21 [talli]
i guess that's what OLAP apps are for?
04:45:05 [talli]
but it would be nice to have something in OACS that would simplify the lives of developers whose clients *demand* (X+1)! reports
04:58:47 [hazmat]
definitely... i'm just curious about what sort of graphs you're looking for?
04:59:12 [hazmat]
* hazmat is working on oacs project at the moment.
04:59:20 [denshi]
denshi is now known as denshi-sleep
04:59:39 [talli]
oh cool
04:59:45 [talli]
what's the project?
05:00:29 [hazmat]
er.. by project i mean code
05:00:46 [talli]
ah
05:00:47 [hazmat]
i'm working on a script to load up the acs-data model sans aolserver
05:00:54 [talli]
are you still doing zope stuff for that gig?
05:01:00 [hazmat]
which gig?
05:01:04 [hazmat]
my current job, yes.
05:01:08 [talli]
oh, cool
05:01:10 [hazmat]
is kinda of sad
05:01:20 [talli]
the last one i heard you had
05:01:24 [talli]
for zope + python
05:01:25 [hazmat]
they only do relational work, for which zope is really a poor platform.
05:01:26 [talli]
oh, cool
05:01:33 [talli]
is that what you're doing with the oacs data model?
05:01:53 [hazmat]
yes, i'm trying to teach them how to use a relational data model, oacs is an excellent example
05:02:01 [talli]
ah
05:02:05 [hazmat]
i've got them to convert from mysql to postgres, which is a good start.
05:02:07 [talli]
i don't really care about graphs
05:02:10 [talli]
just data reports
05:02:24 [hazmat]
okay... i just saw a project earlier today.
05:02:27 [hazmat]
* hazmat digs
05:02:46 [hazmat]
http://datavision.sourceforge.net/
05:02:47 [oacs-chump]
A: http://datavision.sourceforge.net/ from hazmat
05:02:59 [hazmat]
A: open source db reporting tool ala crystal reports
05:02:59 [oacs-chump]
added comment A1
05:03:03 [hazmat]
A:!
05:03:04 [oacs-chump]
added comment A2
05:03:07 [hazmat]
fuck
05:04:21 [talli]
hmmm... i think someone was about to mention this today
05:04:49 [hazmat]
wow i didn't realize how many packages are in oacs
05:04:55 [hazmat]
79
05:05:26 [talli]
uhmm... i don't know about that
05:05:31 [talli]
where did you get that number?
05:06:45 [talli]
talli is now known as barstool
05:07:18 [hazmat]
from my dependency graph for the data model loader tool
05:07:22 [barstool]
ah, weir
05:07:29 [barstool]
well, i don't think there are that many
05:07:32 [barstool]
most are just hacks
05:07:37 [hazmat]
true
05:07:53 [hazmat]
i'm it against cvs head
05:08:15 [barstool]
anyway, for those of you not in NYC, a normal occurence is for complete road construction to take place at 1 AM
05:08:30 [barstool]
so that multiple jackhammers are goiing off outside
05:08:40 [barstool]
i am somewhat lucky as i'm on the 8th floor
05:08:53 [barstool]
however, teh poor bastards on the second floor must be really hating life
05:08:58 [barstool]
and if you're on the first....
05:09:54 [hazmat]
your deaf by now
05:10:14 [hazmat]
* hazmat recommends delivery drugs
05:11:42 [barstool]
i would never!
05:11:52 [barstool]
anyway, gotta sleep
05:11:55 [barstool]
somehow...
05:11:59 [barstool]
see ya guys later
05:13:04 [hazmat]
cheers
05:17:29 [barstool]
for the record, there are three jack hammers
05:20:50 [rbm]
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paje has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
05:33:02 [rbm]
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05:41:12 [hazmat]
cool. me script works
07:39:31 [rbm]
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12:17:50 [Paydaophylax]
I need to move to mexico
12:18:02 [Paydaophylax]
then I can have a siesta every day
12:24:16 [_djg_]
Paydaophylax: where are you now?
12:24:36 [_djg_]
I'd also rather move to mexico :-D (been there twice, us only once)
12:25:15 [_djg_]
but there is no programming industry
12:25:18 [_djg_]
in mexico
12:40:53 [Paydaophylax]
That's ok
12:41:12 [Paydaophylax]
there's lots of tequila and scantily clad women
13:02:07 [Paydaophylax]
http://www.russiajournal.com/printer/weekly5339.html
13:02:08 [oacs-chump]
B: http://www.russiajournal.com/printer/weekly5339.html from Paydaophylax
13:02:25 [Paydaophylax]
B:| An interesting read (with timeline) on the Russian Economic System
13:02:25 [oacs-chump]
titled item B
13:02:32 [Paydaophylax]
B: A random useless read...
13:02:32 [oacs-chump]
added comment B1
13:03:42 [Paydaophylax]
heh...not enough letters in the alphabet
13:14:56 [markd2]
markd2 (~markd2@h166-102-041-034.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
13:18:24 [Paydaophylax]
Hey hey
13:18:29 [Paydaophylax]
paje, feed mark
13:18:43 [Paydaophylax]
paaaaaje...
13:18:46 [Paydaophylax]
* Paydaophylax whistles
13:18:51 [markd2]
* paje bitch-slapps Paydaophylax
13:20:52 [Paydaophylax]
Ouch!
13:21:03 [Paydaophylax]
* Paydaophylax whimpers and crawls under the table
13:21:35 [Paydaophylax]
You try Gentoo yet?
13:21:47 [markd2]
what's that?
13:23:19 [Paydaophylax]
It's a mutant between Linux and FreeBSD from what they claim
13:23:35 [Paydaophylax]
Claims to be 0% bloatware
13:24:40 [Paydaophylax]
http://www.gentoo.org/index.html
13:24:41 [oacs-chump]
C: http://www.gentoo.org/index.html from Paydaophylax
13:25:10 [Paydaophylax]
C:| Gentoo Linux - Mutant-like Linux that claims 0% bloatware
13:25:10 [oacs-chump]
titled item C
13:25:22 [Paydaophylax]
C: Supposedly a mix of FreeBSD + Linux
13:25:22 [oacs-chump]
added comment C1
13:26:23 [markd2]
qool
13:26:33 [Paydaophylax]
yeah
13:27:25 [Paydaophylax]
I need to rid of the Microsoft devil within me
13:27:39 [Paydaophylax]
I was sitting there last night going..."ummmm....how do I compile from source again?"
13:27:49 [Paydaophylax]
that's simply NOT ACCEPTABLE
13:32:55 [Paydaophylax]
Hmmm
13:33:00 [Paydaophylax]
I can install it on this PoS
13:33:50 [markd2]
what kind of PoS
13:34:57 [Paydaophylax]
PII 300 with 32 megs of ram
13:35:12 [Paydaophylax]
it's sitting next to my foot doing nothing
13:35:22 [Paydaophylax]
Once I get a blank cd, I will install Gentoo on it
13:36:33 [markd2]
that's only slightly weaker than my primary web server, and my home db machine
13:37:37 [Paydaophylax]
See
13:37:41 [Paydaophylax]
I have a problem
13:37:45 [Paydaophylax]
I'm a Microsoft addict
13:37:54 [Paydaophylax]
3 of the 4 machines at my house run windows
13:38:14 [Paydaophylax]
And the other one is my server that I don't "use" on a daily basis as a desktop
13:38:22 [Paydaophylax]
it's FreeBSD
13:38:26 [markd2]
sounds like you have Problem
13:38:28 [markd2]
and need therapy
13:38:29 [Paydaophylax]
I know
13:38:32 [Paydaophylax]
* Paydaophylax weeps
13:38:42 [Paydaophylax]
where's paje so he can insult me some
13:39:40 [Paydaophylax]
I need to find me a BSD Like Linux
13:40:22 [Paydaophylax]
I guess I'll just pull out the WinXP hard drive and try to find a *nix that is slim but has compatibility with all my stuff
13:40:44 [Paydaophylax]
I need something that has a 300 meg foot print which is plenty if you don't install a million useless apps
13:41:00 [Paydaophylax]
Know of anything?
13:41:43 [markd2]
slackware?
13:41:57 [markd2]
personally I dedicate a hard drive to the OS
13:42:01 [markd2]
I have them on removable caddies
13:42:17 [markd2]
if I need to play a windoze game, I just pull out my linux drive and put in the winoze one
13:42:23 [markd2]
no dual-booting nightmares
13:42:42 [Paydaophylax]
you know
13:42:50 [Paydaophylax]
That's an excellent idea
13:42:53 [Paydaophylax]
* Paydaophylax goes shopping
13:43:14 [Paydaophylax]
What do I look under or for?
13:43:41 [markd2]
hmmm
13:43:45 [markd2]
maybe 'removable drive caddies'
13:45:43 [Paydaophylax]
how do those work
13:46:05 [markd2]
you install the caddy receivier into the machine, and attach the IDE and power cables to it
13:46:08 [Paydaophylax]
It takes a 5.25 slot?
13:46:11 [markd2]
yeah
13:46:13 [Paydaophylax]
ok
13:46:16 [Paydaophylax]
hmmm
13:46:17 [Paydaophylax]
works for me!
13:46:19 [markd2]
put the hard drive into the caddy, and hook up a cable
13:46:35 [Paydaophylax]
what cable?
13:46:37 [markd2]
there's a mating connector on the back of the caddy that mates with the reciver, providing power and connectivity
13:46:47 [markd2]
what I've got is just regular IDE cable
13:46:53 [markd2]
what ever you'd plug into the drive
13:47:16 [markd2]
they probably don't sell the caddys individually, so if you want > 1, you';ll need to get a couple of packages and find some other home for the additional receiviers
13:48:43 [Paydaophylax]
of course they do
13:48:57 [markd2]
yay
13:49:05 [markd2]
the place where I got mine from 3 years ago didn't
13:50:38 [Paydaophylax]
Will that work?
13:51:11 [markd2]
... loading ...
13:51:15 [markd2]
... loading ...
13:51:17 [markd2]
... loading ...
13:51:18 [Paydaophylax]
lol
13:51:21 [markd2]
still loading
13:51:34 [markd2]
yep
13:51:44 [markd2]
nice. it has a fan
13:53:56 [Paydaophylax]
here's the full list
13:54:03 [Paydaophylax]
Just tell me what the heck I need :)
13:54:09 [Paydaophylax]
preferrably supporting ATA133
13:54:27 [markd2]
what's ATA133?
13:54:36 [markd2]
I havne't done any PC hardware stuff in 3-4 years
13:54:38 [markd2]
thank ghod
13:54:54 [Paydaophylax]
lol
13:55:15 [Paydaophylax]
The hard drives...they come in regular IDE, ATA33, ATA66, ATA100, ATA133
13:55:18 [markd2]
no way I'm gonna open each of those links
13:55:25 [markd2]
it'll take me an hour to get through 'em all
13:55:53 [Paydaophylax]
LOL
13:55:54 [Paydaophylax]
dialup?
13:55:59 [markd2]
ISDN
13:56:00 [markd2]
slow
13:56:02 [markd2]
alltel?
13:56:09 [markd2]
* paje says alltel are a bunch of wankers
13:56:19 [markd2]
there's 3 or 4 there that mention ata133
13:56:24 [markd2]
you probably don't need the hot-swap
14:05:28 [Paydaophylax]
nope
14:18:32 [Paydaophylax]
heh
14:18:37 [Paydaophylax]
Hey...Now I don't need 4 computers
14:18:40 [Paydaophylax]
I just need 4 hard drive
14:18:54 [markd2]
you can sell the 4 and buy a truly kick-ass machine
14:23:27 [cro]
cro (~cro@defiant.nca.asu.edu) has joined #openacs
14:23:52 [barstool]
hey markd2, what's the fastest connectivity you can get out there?
14:24:23 [Paydaophylax]
smoke signals
14:24:25 [markd2]
for me, dual-channel 52K ISDN
14:24:37 [Paydaophylax]
I was close
14:24:37 [markd2]
I get laughed at when I ask about 'dsl" or "cable modem'
14:25:03 [barstool]
barstool is now known as talli
14:25:40 [talli]
what do they do when you ask for a chocolate fudge goat sunday?
14:26:02 [markd2]
they send me up the road to Bonnie's
14:26:50 [talli]
Bonnie's? is that some beastial brothel?
14:35:21 [markd2]
worse
14:35:30 [markd2]
a 'soft-serve' 'ice-cream' place just down the 'road'
14:35:47 [Paydaophylax]
* Paydaophylax shudders
14:38:49 [Paydaophylax]
I need a removable bay rack and some trays damn it!
14:38:51 [Paydaophylax]
daaaamn it!
14:41:27 [markd2]
order next day shipping
14:44:42 [denshi-sleep]
denshi-sleep is now known as denshi
14:51:45 [Paydaophylax]
this vpn sucks
15:40:10 [markd2]
markd2 has quit ("Bork")
15:43:50 [hazmat]
morning
16:14:13 [Paydaophylax]
hehehe
16:14:16 [Paydaophylax]
iBoot is cool
16:14:36 [Paydaophylax]
I might want to pick up a unit or two...or three
16:19:47 [davb]
davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
16:20:05 [Paydaophylax]
hey dave
16:20:17 [davb]
hi
16:22:30 [markd2]
markd2 (~markd2@h166-102-041-034.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
16:24:04 [Paydaophylax]
iBoot kicks ass
16:24:16 [Paydaophylax]
iB00t!
16:24:40 [markd2]
what's the URL fr your machines
16:25:05 [markd2]
looks like it was designed with NT in mind
16:25:09 [markd2]
needing to reboot it so often
16:26:31 [Paydaophylax]
:)
16:27:39 [markd2]
warez.slashdot.org
16:34:34 [jim]
jim (~jim@12-233-225-152.client.attbi.com) has joined #openacs
16:34:41 [jim]
re.
16:37:38 [cro]
Hey, what function should I use within a tcl proc to abort the proc and return an error if something goes wrong with the proc? Is there an ad_? proc to do that?
16:38:14 [cro]
(I'm validating switches to a proc, if the developer calls it wrong I need to bail out)
16:39:10 [jim]
does the proc output to a web page?
16:39:13 [cro]
No
16:39:32 [jim]
so, maybe you want to throw an error condition?
16:39:48 [cro]
ok, so just a standard TCL exception do you mean?
16:40:31 [jim]
yeah, dunno if that's what you want... but at least it's in the ballpark (maybe it hit the hotdog vendor...)
16:40:53 [jim]
what does it return?
16:40:59 [cro]
an object_id
16:41:47 [jim]
and does it get that id by querying the database? would the db get altered possibly as a direct result of calling your proc?
16:41:59 [cro]
Yes
16:42:07 [cro]
The proc creates a new object.
16:42:19 [jim]
ahh
16:42:23 [cro]
If the developer doesn't pass the right "Stuff" to it I need to bail.
16:42:37 [cro]
I think I need something analagous to a C "assert()"
16:42:53 [jim]
ok, one way:
16:43:05 [jim]
if need-to-bail, return ""
16:43:28 [markd2]
assert() terminates the program
16:43:37 [markd2]
if you need that, just a tcl 'exit' will restart the server
16:43:54 [denshi]
assert() terminates with prejudice
16:43:54 [markd2]
(Well, will exit it, and inittab / daemontools will restart it)
16:43:55 [jim]
?? restart??
16:44:10 [denshi]
exit isn't the same
16:44:15 [cro]
markd2: Yes, you're right, the analogy breaks down, I don't want to kill off the server.
16:44:17 [markd2]
right, but the effects are the same
16:44:40 [jim]
in my case a restart takes mroe than a minute :)
16:44:49 [markd2]
ooof
16:45:07 [jim]
yeah :) oooof is right :)
16:45:50 [denshi]
vacuum tubes running a little slow, jim?
16:46:46 [jim]
so I only want the server to restart in one of three scenarios: 1, I tell it to... 2, it dies unexpectedly... 3, the universe is being rebooted...
16:46:51 [jim]
denshi: so it's a little slow :)
16:51:12 [denshi]
so to answer your question, how far out of your proc do you need to bail?
16:52:03 [cro]
If a user hits a page where the developer has called the proc wrong I want a stack trace to appear in the browser.
16:52:20 [cro]
Call "error"?
16:54:11 [denshi]
isn't there a new spiffy subsystem for that in oacs4? anyone?
16:54:59 [jim]
for one, oacs4 will hide such error messages from plain users if you set a flag
16:55:28 [jim]
it will say something like "there was an error, a programmer will investigate"
16:55:43 [cro]
And the stack trace ends up in the log right?
16:55:47 [jim]
yes
16:56:14 [jim]
if it weren't for that, the programmer couldn't investigate :)
16:56:51 [jim]
davb: ayh?
17:07:04 [denshi]
anyone seen this: "bash: /usr/bin/top: Input/output error"
17:08:27 [markd2]
disk error?
17:08:28 [markd2]
http://list.cobalt.com/pipermail/cobalt-users/2001-December/058655.html
17:08:29 [oacs-chump]
D: http://list.cobalt.com/pipermail/cobalt-users/2001-December/058655.html from markd2
17:09:00 [denshi]
I think I crashed parts of linux
17:09:00 [markd2]
D:|One hypothesis to a 'top' i/o error
17:09:00 [oacs-chump]
titled item D
17:10:41 [denshi]
that's the fun part with linux; it always goes down fighting
17:10:56 [denshi]
I am even now typing on a machine with a melted hard drive
17:11:48 [markd2]
nice
17:13:47 [denshi]
I've actually had more catastrophic hardware failures than linux kernel failures
17:14:07 [denshi]
well, I'm going to go dig the slag out of my case
17:14:12 [denshi]
toodles
17:14:16 [denshi]
denshi has quit ()
17:29:57 [cro2]
cro2 (~cro@defiant.nca.asu.edu) has joined #openacs
17:29:58 [cro2]
cro2 is now known as OldhamCR
17:30:29 [OldhamCR]
OldhamCR is now known as cro2
17:31:53 [markd2]
old ham CR?
17:32:29 [talli]
talli is now known as boogatatooga
17:32:31 [cro2]
My surname is Oldham. My first and middle names are "Charles Richard" but I'm known by my initials.
17:32:44 [cro2]
Hope you're not from the Phillipines.
17:33:02 [markd2]
ah
17:33:04 [markd2]
heh
17:33:21 [cro2]
(where "CR" is a euphemism for bathroom)
17:33:37 [markd2]
or Content Repository.
17:33:38 [markd2]
* markd2 laughs
17:34:10 [jim]
there are too many bad directions to go with that...
17:34:48 [markd2]
and talli^H^H^H^H boogatatooga will explore them all
17:35:37 [cro]
cro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:36:25 [cro2]
Another dumb question: If I do db_exec_plsql statement_name { declare id; begin id:=object.new(params); end; } how can I get the new object's ID back out to tcl-land?
17:37:09 [cro2]
cro2 is now known as cro
17:37:21 [jim]
cro2: bind variables?
17:38:07 [jim]
or maybe use db_string?
17:38:33 [jim]
maybe you could do something like this
17:38:55 [jim]
set b_var ""
17:39:36 [jim]
db_exec_plsql statement_name { declare id; begin id:=object.new(params); end; :b_var := id; }
17:43:40 [cro]
Oh, bingo
17:43:44 [cro]
Read the docs
17:44:01 [cro]
db_exec_plsql returns the value of the bind variable :1
17:44:16 [cro]
so you can do
17:44:28 [cro]
set id [db_exec_plsql plsql_test {
17:44:29 [cro]
declare
17:44:29 [cro]
id integer;
17:44:29 [cro]
begin
17:44:29 [cro]
:1 := 1;
17:44:29 [cro]
end;
17:44:31 [cro]
}]
17:44:33 [cro]
ns_write "plsqltest returned $id.<br>"
17:45:55 [jim]
ok, but does the following also work?
17:45:59 [jim]
set b_var ""
17:46:30 [markd2]
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17:46:49 [cro]
sorry, no, I just wrote some sample code, the oracle driver complains about the string buffer being too small.
17:46:55 [cro]
go figure
17:47:24 [jim]
db_exec_plsql statement_name { begin :b_var := 1; end; }
17:48:22 [jim]
ns_write "statement_name set b_var to $b_var. <br>"
17:48:57 [jim]
ohh
17:49:02 [jim]
in that case
17:49:06 [jim]
set b_var " "
17:49:15 [cro]
ahh, I see
17:49:16 [jim]
then you have a buffer
17:52:17 [jim]
that work?
17:53:18 [jim]
* jim has -no- idea if that's a big enuf buffer for all cases... given that oracle uses sequences, which are probably 128 bits wide
17:53:49 [cro]
No...
17:53:50 [cro]
db_exec_plsql plsql_test {
17:53:51 [cro]
declare
17:53:51 [cro]
id integer;
17:53:51 [cro]
begin
17:53:51 [cro]
:b_var := 1;
17:53:51 [cro]
end;
17:53:52 [cro]
}
17:53:55 [cro]
ns_write "plsqltest returned $b_var.<br>"
17:54:04 [cro]
returns
17:54:06 [cro]
plsqltest returned .
17:54:40 [jim]
did you set b_var first?
17:54:49 [cro]
sorry, yes, forgot to paste that part.
17:54:55 [cro]
set b_var " "
17:55:11 [cro]
I tried :b_var := to_char(1) also
17:55:19 [jim]
ok, so before you expanded the buffer, it said "buffer not big enuf"?
17:55:29 [jim]
or "no buffer" or something?
17:56:14 [cro]
No, all I got in the result page was "plsqltest returned ."
17:56:19 [cro]
like the variable was an empty string now.
17:56:28 [jim]
gotcha
17:56:41 [jim]
what about this...
17:57:43 [cro]
jim, sorry, I didn't read your message correctly
17:58:07 [jim]
set b_var [db_string plsql_test { select 1 from dual }]
17:58:25 [cro]
you were right, before I expanded it I got ora8.c:3930:ora_tcl_command: error in `OCIStmtExecute ()': ORA-06502: PL/SQL: numeric or value error: character string buffer too small
17:58:58 [cro]
After I expanded it I got "plsqltest returned ."
17:59:11 [jim]
ok
17:59:41 [cro]
But "set id [db_exec_plsql plsql_test { begin :1 := 1; end; } works to set id to 1.
18:00:11 [jim]
ok...
18:01:13 [jim]
so, afaik, most whatever.new plsql funcs return NULL if they couldn't allocate
18:01:27 [jim]
which translates to ""
18:01:42 [jim]
once it gets to tcl
18:01:47 [cro]
cool.
18:02:36 [jim]
(so you wouldn't know if your argument-verifying code made an error, or new made an error, if either would return null)
18:03:05 [jim]
s/know if your/know whether your/
18:03:18 [cro]
I see, you're right.
18:03:36 [jim]
the question you have to decide, is does that matter
18:03:53 [cro]
right
18:04:20 [toffice]
toffice is now known as talli
18:05:37 [cro]
thanks, jim
18:25:43 [Paydaophylax]
ROFL
18:25:51 [Paydaophylax]
You know you need more ram in your computer when you can't install Gentoo
18:26:37 [talli]
Paydaophylax: go netbsd
18:26:54 [talli]
they have docs on how to install on a computer with less than 4 mb of ram
18:27:04 [Paydaophylax]
no no
18:27:22 [Paydaophylax]
The machine has 32 megs of ram
18:27:29 [Paydaophylax]
I don't see why Gentoo can't install
18:27:48 [talli]
in the docs gentoo says you need *at least* 64 mb of ram
18:27:53 [talli]
and then it's tough
18:28:38 [Paydaophylax]
Right
18:28:47 [Paydaophylax]
* Paydaophylax goes to fetch some more memory
18:44:48 [lethedrinker]
i fucking hate traffic
18:57:17 [talli]
does anyone know how to paste a url from a browser onto a command line?
18:57:28 [cro]
IN Windows?
18:57:31 [cro]
or Unix?
18:57:36 [talli]
unix
18:57:52 [cro]
In X I would use middle mouse button
18:58:00 [talli]
what if i don't have one of those?
18:58:10 [cro]
Chord the left and right buttons?
18:58:17 [talli]
chrod?
18:58:28 [cro]
Push the left and right buttons together
18:58:35 [cro]
at the same time I mena
18:58:36 [cro]
mean
18:58:38 [talli]
ah, thanks
18:59:06 [talli]
no good. damn
19:00:24 [jim]
talli: then you have to enable Emulate3Buttons
19:00:34 [talli]
ah, right
19:00:35 [talli]
will do
19:01:00 [jim]
and consider a 3-button mouse... your hand will thank you
19:01:51 [talli]
i've got one somewhere around here...
19:02:25 [talli]
is there a command to check which kernel you're running?
19:02:58 [lethedrinker]
* lethedrinker doesn't believe in language wars
19:03:07 [jim]
try uname -a or uname -r
19:03:28 [talli]
thanks
19:06:43 [jim]
lethedrinker: howbout language wars while in traffic? :)
19:07:23 [jim]
instead of the 'finger', you could mouthe "T C L!!"
19:16:01 [lethedrinker]
lol
19:16:25 [lethedrinker]
i rather stick a segfault up some losers gas pipe
19:34:59 [jim]
davb: are you are here?
19:44:52 [talli]
lethedrinker: what is your gig at the zope company entail?
19:52:04 [talli]
funny thread on newsforge: http://newsforge.com/comments.pl?sid=23306&op=&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread&tid=11&pid=12628#12643
19:53:43 [markd2]
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19:56:04 [markd2]
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20:05:45 [lethedrinker]
talli: umm.. various things, currently i'm building systems for an international pyramid scheme that sells ladies undergarments
20:05:53 [lethedrinker]
* lethedrinker cries at the ignomy
20:06:08 [lethedrinker]
* lethedrinker needs a bumper sticker "i'd rather be killing"
20:07:20 [cro]
lethedrinker: what' "lethe"?
20:07:48 [cro]
sorry i meant
20:07:51 [talli]
i assume you're not joking?
20:07:51 [cro]
what is "lethe"
20:08:09 [davb]
* davb is here, but has to go :) bbl
20:11:25 [jim]
oh...
20:11:41 [jim]
brief question before3 you leave?
20:12:10 [jim]
* jim thinks he might be much too late
20:13:23 [jim]
hmm, looks like about 5 mins late3
20:17:45 [lethedrinker]
cro: lethe is a river in the greek underworld
20:18:16 [lethedrinker]
talli: sadly, no. i'm not joking.
20:26:06 [talli]
lethedrinker: then i am impressed you've made it into the belly of the beast
20:26:26 [talli]
that's as colorful a project as a man could ask for
20:27:58 [jim]
if just covering the surface :)
20:30:12 [lethedrinker]
i think its time to start looking for some new work
20:30:30 [cro]
lethe: where are you in meatspace?
20:31:19 [lethedrinker]
pasadena, ca
20:31:23 [cro]
ah
20:36:41 [Paydaophylax]
Anyone try gentoo yet?
20:39:41 [lethedrinker]
i have
20:39:45 [lethedrinker]
i like it alot
20:40:07 [lethedrinker]
i had some problems compiling kde3, but other than that it was fantastic
20:40:30 [Paydaophylax]
How the hell do I make partitions?
20:40:34 [Paydaophylax]
They skim over the fdisk bit
20:41:07 [Paydaophylax]
From their docs: "Note: At this point, create your partitions using fdisk. Note that your partitions should be of type 0x82 if swap and 0x83 for regular filesystems (whether XFS, ReiserFS or ext2).
20:41:26 [lethedrinker]
i ignored that
20:41:38 [Paydaophylax]
What do you mean ignored that
20:55:29 [lethedrinker]
i never set any extra bits in fdisk for partition type that corresponded to that as i recall.
20:56:13 [lethedrinker]
cro: btw. XFS is not recommended at this time for gentoo last i heard.
20:56:31 [lethedrinker]
Paydaophylax: btw. XFS is not recommended at this time for gentoo last i heard.
20:56:33 [lethedrinker]
err..
20:56:35 [lethedrinker]
sigh.
20:57:53 [Paydaophylax]
Right
20:57:58 [Paydaophylax]
but it doesn't know how to boot
21:13:31 [lethedrinker]
hugh? you boot with the cdrom and format the parititions?
21:20:03 [Paydaophylax]
Trying to
21:20:59 [talli]
anyone know how to set up a client machine to accept port forwarding?
21:22:44 [talli]
i found a How-To
21:22:53 [talli]
i need to get some patience and figure it out
21:23:06 [talli]
* talli is pissed things aren't easier for his lack of patience
21:30:07 [cro]
cro has quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)")
21:30:43 [cro]
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21:53:05 [Paydaophylax]
gentooooo
21:56:03 [talli]
talli has quit ("Client Exiting")
21:56:15 [bartt]
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21:56:42 [talli]
talli (~talli@xd84b5c59.ip.ggn.net) has joined #openacs
21:56:47 [bartt]
Hi Guys, I have a question about the form manager.
21:57:07 [bartt]
Is it possible to incluede form elements that can remain empty (null)?
21:57:10 [talli]
hey bartt
21:57:16 [talli]
i don't know
21:57:25 [talli]
i don't know anytning when it comes to technical crap
21:57:40 [talli]
but i do know that donb just did some serious hacking to the form manager
21:57:47 [talli]
you may want to post a question on the boards about it
21:57:54 [bartt]
My head is spinning with all the technical crap.
21:58:27 [bartt]
I'll give that a try. I'm facing a deadline and was hoping that someone here might know.
22:00:44 [Paydaophylax]
* Paydaophylax installs Gentoooooooooooooooo
22:01:39 [Paydaophylax]
Paydaophylax is now known as Richophylax
22:31:45 [jim]
bartt: yes, fields can be empty when form is submitted
22:32:00 [Richophylax]
moo?
22:32:29 [bartt]
Jim, how do you specify that? A basic form requires all fields to have a value upon submit.
22:33:07 [jim]
bartt: look at ad_page_contract, and the contract of the page that gets the submission
22:34:00 [bartt]
Jim, I think we're talking about different mechanisms. I'm talking about template::form and template::element constructs.
22:34:58 [jim]
when you submit the form, whichever response page gets it, ad_page_contract receives variables from the form if you tell the contract about those form variables
22:35:32 [jim]
is that how you have things set up presently?
22:37:30 [cro]
cro has left #openacs
22:38:47 [bartt]
The response page is the same page and the form construct test the form elements for a value. I guess I'll have to take a look at the code.
22:41:50 [jim]
ad_page_contract -is- part of this api... it's not the only way to respond to forms, but it's the mechanism by which variables from forms -or- url variables come into the page from forms or links, respectively
22:42:32 [jim]
(speaking within ACS context... outside of that, there is a more primitive api that can be used)
22:45:55 [denshi]
denshi (~chatzilla@cs6625176-26.austin.rr.com) has joined #openacs
22:48:00 [talli]
hey denshi
22:48:11 [talli]
can you swing by the momentum channel?
22:48:36 [bartt]
Jim I found it, there is an undocumented flag -optional when creating form elements. Thanks for your help.
22:50:26 [markd2]
markd2 (~Snak@h166-102-041-119.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
22:52:35 [Richophylax]
Mark
22:52:38 [Richophylax]
gentoo is interesting
22:52:41 [talli]
hey markd2
22:52:45 [markd2]
yo
22:52:46 [Richophylax]
hey talli :)
22:52:56 [Richophylax]
hehe
22:52:59 [markd2]
so you like Richo printers?
22:53:01 [talli]
markd2: wanna come into the #momentum channel for a bit? i'm passing out cookies...
22:53:06 [talli]
hey Richophylax
22:53:14 [Richophylax]
what printers?
22:53:19 [Richophylax]
Richophylax is now known as Spork
22:53:42 [jim]
bartt: see /doc/acs-templating/demo/ on your server; there are some demos about forms
22:54:16 [Spork]
Gentoo is hard to use
22:54:26 [Spork]
therefore it must be better than whatever is out there now
22:54:51 [bartt]
jim: That is where I looked first but the -optional flag is not documented in /doc/acs-templating!
22:56:31 [jim]
I see... yes, they're using it everywhere
23:01:49 [jim]
seems to me the doc of the templating system and that of the database API are two very important things to get complete and right
23:58:14 [talli]
talli is now known as chachacha
23:58:16 [bartt]
bartt has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))