00:02:54 <markd2> markd2 (~Snak@h166-102-041-026.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
00:30:20 <Fridayphylax> paje, feed mark
00:30:20 <paje> * paje tosses markd2 a cookie
00:30:45 <Fridayphylax> Mark, you awake?
00:31:13 <markd2> barely
00:31:14 <markd2> whazzon?
00:31:57 <Fridayphylax> ah
00:32:04 <Fridayphylax> I was going to pick your brain with database junk
00:32:13 <markd2> sure
00:32:31 <Fridayphylax> I want to set up a database
00:32:43 <markd2> that's a good start :-)
00:32:45 <Fridayphylax> which will allow more organized stuff
00:32:51 <Fridayphylax> it's not oracle
00:32:53 <Fridayphylax> ;)
00:33:03 <Fridayphylax> i'm just trying to figure out what tables I might need
00:35:19 <Fridayphylax> i have 2 so far
00:35:26 <Fridayphylax> one that describes the users of the database
00:35:31 <Fridayphylax> and one that stores tasks
00:35:37 <markd2> define "stuff"
00:35:49 <markd2> that's pretty nebulous
00:35:51 <Fridayphylax> tasks, calendar
00:36:00 <Fridayphylax> Can paje define words?
00:36:05 <markd2> don't think so
00:36:06 <Fridayphylax> paje, what is nebulous
00:36:07 <paje> fridayphylax: wish i knew
00:36:17 <Fridayphylax> yeah, me too paje, us old dumb folks just don't know chit
00:36:31 <markd2> 1. Cloudy, misty, or hazy. 2. Lacking definite form or limits; vague: "nebulous assurances of future cooperation." 3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a nebula.
00:36:36 <Fridayphylax> ah
00:36:46 <Fridayphylax> * Fridayphylax was just heading to m-w.com
00:37:06 <markd2> if you're on AIM, SmarterChild is awesome
00:37:20 <Fridayphylax> you have AIM?
00:37:47 <markd2> yeah
00:37:52 <Fridayphylax> oooh ooooh
00:37:56 <Fridayphylax> what's the screen name?
00:38:02 <markd2> I like to keep a low profile
00:38:14 <Fridayphylax> i'll find you
00:38:19 <markd2> heh
00:38:28 <markd2> but AIM smarterChild
00:39:03 <markd2> "please define callipygian", or, "please spell cokie"
00:39:58 <Fridayphylax> * Fridayphylax searches
00:40:09 <Fridayphylax> hmmm
00:40:15 <Fridayphylax> You should just tell me :-D
00:41:57 <Fridayphylax> I think i need to take a nap
00:42:02 <Fridayphylax> * Fridayphylax falls asleep
00:42:09 <markd2> napping is good
00:42:18 <Fridayphylax> yeah
00:42:24 <Fridayphylax> I'll try to figure out what I want in my database
00:42:29 <markd2> one of each
00:42:43 <Fridayphylax> no
00:42:48 <Fridayphylax> I actually wanted two of each
00:42:51 <Fridayphylax> but no goats
00:42:57 <markd2> you'll need two databases then
00:43:10 <Fridayphylax> well, Noah didn't need two arks did he?
00:43:23 <Fridayphylax> :P
00:43:27 <markd2> with a boss like that, you don't need a backup
00:43:35 <Fridayphylax> good point
00:43:56 <Fridayphylax> Do you think they made Noah's Ark replication and Noah's Ark Production?
00:44:03 <markd2> Noah's Staging
00:44:09 <markd2> Noah's arctangent
00:44:29 <Fridayphylax> lol
00:44:40 <Fridayphylax> i nap now
00:44:44 <Fridayphylax> be back in a bit maybe
00:44:50 <markd2> 1400 * 7
00:44:50 <paje> 9800
00:44:51 <rzolf> rzolf (~rolf@badgertronics.com) has joined #openacs
00:44:56 <markd2> yo(e)
00:44:59 <markd2> 9800 / 60
00:44:59 <paje> 163.333333333333
00:45:00 <rzolf> well well well.
00:45:04 <markd2> 163  / 60
00:45:05 <paje> 2.71666666666667
00:45:09 <rzolf> markd2. we meet again.
00:45:15 <markd2> my old(?) nemesis
00:45:18 <markd2> er, genesis
00:45:21 <markd2> sega!
00:45:39 <Fridayphylax> paje, it's happening again!
00:45:39 <paje> * paje strokes markd2's head and whispers gently to calm his manic episode
00:45:48 <markd2> heh
00:47:25 <rzolf> so what's going on.
00:47:27 <rzolf> in #openacs.
00:47:28 <markd2> nammach
00:47:45 <markd2> I've started my batch "load", will probably take about 3 hours
00:47:49 <markd2> 3 billable hours.  muahahahaha
00:48:02 <rzolf> i'm just doing the usual friday night routine. listening to ted nugent, reading national review, oiling my crossbow, etc.
00:48:58 <markd2> yeah.  that Limbaugh guy is getting too soft
00:51:51 <jim> hey! Ned Tugent! isn't he the king of A?
00:52:04 <markd2> I thought that was Ayn Rand
00:52:52 <rzolf> ayn rand is a literary giant.
00:53:58 <markd2> Objectivism is an empty shell of a second rate philosophy, and you know it!
00:54:09 <markd2> Although that 200 page John Galt speech r0x0red
00:54:14 <rzolf> heh.
00:54:18 <rzolf> who is john galt.
00:54:43 <rzolf> i'm not an objectivist, mainly because after the first 4 pages of the fountainhead, or whatever. i got really bored.
00:55:11 <markd2> "Anthem" is actually pretty cool
00:55:12 <markd2> and *short*
00:55:22 <rzolf> i read one short one.
00:55:26 <markd2> the We/I thing?
00:55:32 <rzolf> was that the one that was written in manifesto format.
00:55:36 <rzolf> it was like
00:55:41 <markd2> there's *thousands* of those
00:55:52 <rzolf> Part I: Objectivist. How to be one.
00:56:04 <rzolf> 1. make friends pay you money to borrow your car
00:56:18 <rzolf> etc.
00:56:42 <rzolf> there was one that was like 80 pages long, and it was a numbered list. followed by some weird letter from ayn rand to "the public"
00:57:06 <rzolf> it was totally like reading "the junior rotary club manifesto"
00:57:19 <markd2> and something like 'volunteering is bad'
00:57:30 <rzolf> * rzolf , junior lion's club treasurer 1991/1992
00:57:46 <markd2> the first chapter of the Introduction to Objectivist Epistimology is a pretty good overview of object oriented analysis
00:57:51 <markd2> what is the lion's club?
00:57:58 <rzolf> its like. a club.
00:58:03 <rzolf> for old dudes.
00:58:09 <rzolf> where they do stuff. for the community.
00:58:18 <markd2> while getting drunk
00:58:29 <rzolf> sometimes they have a few beers.
00:58:42 <markd2> there's an "Elk's club" near here
00:58:49 <rzolf> yeah itis like that.
00:58:52 <markd2> about all I can figure out that they do is host the bi-monthly blood drive
00:58:59 <markd2> have a very surreal flag-day ceremony
00:59:02 <markd2> and generate empty scotch bottles
00:59:02 <rzolf> heh.
00:59:06 <rzolf> yeah that's what they do.
00:59:35 <rzolf> wait was that objectivist epistimology thing / OOP a "real" or "joke" comment.
00:59:54 <rzolf> because I tried reading that one. "pattern language thing"
01:00:06 <rzolf> which could be subtitled "codifying the obvious"
01:00:19 <rzolf> wait. i put the end quote too soon.
01:00:23 <rzolf> "pattern language" thing.
01:00:27 <markd2> it's "real"
01:00:33 <markd2> I was hot for an objectivist once
01:01:06 <markd2> the ideas on cognition and how the mind (supposedly) breaks things down into varrying attributes of a whole
01:01:25 <rzolf> also someone i know makes the claim that wittgenstein's tractatus is also "required reading" for someone into OOP
01:01:38 <rzolf> which is totally not true.
01:02:07 <markd2> heh
01:02:19 <markd2> I think Satre is required reading for anyone writing in C
01:02:21 <rzolf> and. it is not.
01:02:45 <rzolf> Pattern 401. The Illuminated Room.
01:03:27 <rbm> Satre?
01:03:28 <paje> Satre is required reading for anyone writing in C
01:03:30 <markd2>   "Tuna Casserole
01:03:30 <markd2>    Ingredients: 1 large casserole dish
01:03:30 <markd2>    * Place the casserole dish in a cold oven.  Place a chair facing the oven
01:03:31 <markd2>      and sit in it forever.  Think about how hungry you are.  When night
01:03:31 <markd2>      falls, do not turn on the light." -- Satre
01:03:32 <rzolf> Each room shall have one or more windows. Because, a window brings light into a room. And if the room is dark. People can't see. People are happier when they can see things. Be sure to have a window in each room. If you want people to be happy.
01:04:08 <rzolf> hahah
01:04:14 <rzolf> that sartre thing is pretty funny.
01:04:59 <markd2> have you read the whole thing?
01:05:07 <rzolf> the sartre cookbook?
01:05:11 <markd2> yeah
01:05:12 <rzolf> yeah.
01:05:16 <rzolf> the beaver one is the best.
01:05:59 <markd2> yes!
01:06:27 <markd2> November 15
01:06:28 <markd2> Today I made a Black Forest cake out of five pounds of cherries and a live beaver, challenging the very definition of the word cake. I was very pleased. Malraux said he admired it greatly, but could not stay for dessert. Still, I feel that this may be my most profound achievement yet, and have resolved to enter it in the Betty Crocker Bake-Off. 
01:06:32 <rbm> what's this sartre thing?
01:06:40 <markd2> http://badgertronics.com/net-humor/existCookbook.adp
01:06:40 <oacs-chump> A: http://badgertronics.com/net-humor/existCookbook.adp from markd2
01:06:48 <markd2> A:| the Existentialist Cookbook
01:06:48 <oacs-chump> titled item A
01:07:27 <rzolf> hm
01:07:33 <rzolf> i think i am reading a fake
01:07:37 <rzolf> let me compare it to yours
01:08:05 <rzolf> i knew it!
01:08:24 <rzolf> check this one, someone added in some really lame filler:
01:08:27 <rzolf> http://www.hellskitchen.com/sartre.htm
01:08:28 <oacs-chump> B: http://www.hellskitchen.com/sartre.htm from rzolf
01:09:30 <markd2> lame.  that sucks
01:09:34 <rzolf> i nkow
01:09:35 <rzolf> know
01:09:50 <rzolf> i was thkning "i dont remember reading this chee tos comment before"
01:15:51 <rzolf> hm
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02:12:23 <davb> davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
02:20:34 <davb> hello
02:20:43 <markd2> hiya
02:30:40 <davb> A:
02:30:40 <oacs-chump> http://badgertronics.com/net-humor/existCookbook.adp
02:30:41 <oacs-chump> the Existentialist Cookbook
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03:07:16 <davb> http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/psets/
03:07:17 <oacs-chump> C: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/psets/ from davb
03:07:27 <davb> C:|Sample assignments for SICP
03:07:27 <oacs-chump> titled item C
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03:22:17 <davb> hi vinod.
03:22:29 <vinod> hey davb 
03:22:38 <markd2> * markd2 waves
03:22:52 <davb> * davb starts SICP exercises
03:23:01 <markd2> a one and a two
03:23:25 <vinod> * vinod is allergic to exercise[s]
03:31:11 <jim> davb: which ones?
03:31:11 <paje> which ones are bad/
03:31:31 <jim> forget which ones
03:31:31 <paje> jim: I forgot which ones
03:31:43 <davb> 1.3 I am on now.
03:32:03 <jim> cool :) so you know the subst model
03:32:18 <davb> well, i read that part.
03:32:23 <vinod> * vinod raises hand excitedly - "I know about the subst model!"
03:32:50 <davb> what scheme do you guys use?
03:32:55 <jim> davb: what order are the subexpressions evaluated?
03:33:07 <vinod> mit scheme
03:33:09 <davb> * davb could look it up
03:33:28 <davb> that is what I am using.
03:33:32 <jim> -any- order... (and this fact has consequences :)
03:33:34 <vinod> * vinod puts his hand down "i think i forgot what i used to know about the subst model"
03:33:54 <davb> jim: is that in the book? :)
03:34:15 <jim> probably... but you can also look at aduni's first sicp lect
03:34:18 <davb> (oops. davb still has to finish jim's cds)
03:34:31 <davb> ah. that one was missing way back when I tried to watch it.
03:34:42 <jim> don't worry about that too much
03:34:53 <davb> i figured I would get it as I go along.
03:35:00 <jim> the one she did on 10/2/2000
03:35:20 <davb> wow, time flies.
03:35:32 <jim> * jim gets a stopwatch
03:35:58 <vinod> * vinod ducks
03:36:15 <jim> * jim puts the stopwatch down... there are no flies here
03:39:23 <jim> right at the beginning, she does the substitution model mantra
03:39:35 <davb> I almost remember that.
03:43:43 <jim> the "any order" thing is why you sometimes have to nest invocations of let
03:44:24 <davb> ok. its definitely too late, but I'll try to remember that for when my brain is working :)
03:45:34 <davb> til tomorrow
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05:28:11 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  The preceding announced routing has been completed.  For minor routing announcements, non-critical comments and announcements of various types and detailed server admin information, please turn on WALLOPS via one of these commands:  "/umode +w", "/mode yournick +w".  Thanks.
05:56:01 <jim> jim has quit (Remote closed the connection)
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11:56:14 <Fridayphylax> paje, revive davb
11:56:15 <paje> * paje gives davb CPR
12:01:48 <davb> hi
12:01:49 <paje> privet, davb
12:01:57 <davb> almost time for spiderman
12:03:06 <Fridayphylax> heh
12:03:10 <Fridayphylax> the cartoon or the movie
12:03:16 <davb> movie
12:03:34 <Fridayphylax> at 8 am?
12:03:38 <davb> nah, 11
12:03:41 <Fridayphylax> why 11
12:03:51 <davb> I have to work later.
12:04:14 <Fridayphylax> ah
12:04:20 <Fridayphylax> you mean you have to pretend to work later
12:04:42 <davb> nah, this is my other job. they have work there. and I have been working at the other one. 
12:04:44 <Fridayphylax> * Fridayphylax runs around his room waving his arms and mumbling "Developers Developers Developers Developers" and occasionally screaming
12:04:49 <davb> it just doesn't look like it.
12:05:05 <Fridayphylax> Fridayphylax is now known as Domopoer
12:05:47 <davb> oh. crap. is there sound on that.
12:05:49 <davb> ?
12:05:51 <davb> i missed it.
12:05:54 <Domopoer> yeah
12:06:07 <davb> heh, i forgot about that. no speakers at work.
12:07:07 <Domopoer> hehe
12:07:11 <Domopoer> Domopoer is now known as Weekendophylax
12:09:05 <Weekendophylax> *sigh*
12:09:13 <Weekendophylax> If they could only solve the Spam problem
12:11:09 <Weekendophylax> well, I'm going to lie down a bit more..maybe try to read
12:11:20 <Weekendophylax> be back later..After like 3
12:11:25 <Weekendophylax> * Weekendophylax has work today too
12:12:12 <davb> ok.
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13:10:37 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  We're in the process of taking advantage of a new main hub.  In a moment there will be a fairly massive split and rejoin.  Please bear with us.
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13:14:30 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] That should take care of the previously-announced rerouting to take advantage of our new main hub.  Thanks much for your patience.
13:54:24 <atp> atp (~atp@h002078c56a8d.ne.client2.attbi.com) has joined #openacs
13:55:43 <atp> register atp
14:01:01 <atp> atp is now known as AndyPiskorski
14:06:09 <til> Hi!
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14:32:17 <Weekendophylax> paje revive davb
14:32:18 <paje> * paje gives davb CPR
14:34:13 <Weekendophylax> paje seen davb
14:34:13 <paje> davb was last seen on #openacs 2 hours, 22 minutes and 1 seconds ago, saying: ok. [Sat May  4 06:12:53 2002]
14:34:24 <Weekendophylax> oh yeah, he went to the movies
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15:49:23 <rzolf> what is "smux" ?
16:15:33 <rzolf> rzolf has left #openacs
16:31:07 <talli> register talli
17:14:10 <talli> anyone home today?
17:16:32 <rzolf> rzolf (~rolf@badgertronics.com) has joined #openacs
17:16:59 <Weekendophylax> nope
17:24:06 <davb> hi
17:24:07 <paje> que tal, davb
17:30:59 <vinod> vinod (~vinod@207-172-216-188.s1204.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs
17:32:24 <vinod> hello
17:38:59 <rzolf> vstyles.
17:39:36 <vinod> hey rzolf 
17:39:43 <rzolf> wuzzup.
17:40:16 <vinod> not much. watching hockey
17:40:18 <davb> hi vinod
17:40:24 <vinod> hey davb 
17:43:35 <rzolf> hockey.
17:43:46 <rzolf> oh...aren't you from milwaukee?
17:43:55 <vinod> * vinod pleads guilty
17:50:04 <rzolf> * rzolf grew up 45 minutes from hockey hall of fame.
17:50:17 <rzolf> therefore, I can't stand hockey. ;-)
17:50:55 <vinod> haha
17:51:26 <vinod> i was oblivious to hockey until med school, when i was forced to do a rotation for 2 months near the UP of michigan
17:51:46 <vinod> that's when i learned to X-country ski and skate a little
17:52:32 <rzolf> hockey == guys that tried to run me over.
17:52:55 <vinod> ahh - those were the football players in my school
17:54:24 <vinod> i actually don't like nhl hockey much. college hockey is much less violent and more interesting to watch (imo)
18:12:25 <rzolf> as far as insane sports go, hockey is actually pretty cool.
18:12:37 <rzolf> ice skating is cool.
18:15:12 <vinod> yeah. i can barely skate, so i'm impressed by hockey
18:15:31 <vinod> the only chance i ever had was if the puck and i happened to end up at the same place at the same time
18:15:41 <vinod> changing directions wasn't a real option :-)
18:17:21 <talli> * talli proudly points out he was quarterback and captain of his high school football team
18:17:28 <talli> of course, we were 1-8-1
18:17:55 <rzolf> i was a defensive end.
18:18:00 <rzolf> until i broke my back.
18:18:28 <vinod> i was the 3rd string right fielder and statistician for my hs freshman baseball team
18:20:58 <rzolf> hehe
18:21:48 <talli> rzolf: have you looked at or used apache2 yet?
18:22:06 <rzolf> briefly. not used
18:22:43 <rzolf> no time to look around, unfortunately. :-(
18:23:01 <rzolf> uh, but plenty of time to IRC. (?)
18:23:50 <rzolf> paje: seen markd2
18:23:50 <paje> markd2 was last seen on #openacs 15 hours, 49 seconds ago, saying: a one and a two [Fri May  3 21:23:42 2002]
18:24:02 <talli> paje, seen denshi?
18:24:02 <paje> denshi was last seen on #openacs 3 days, 21 hours, 32 minutes and 34 seconds ago, saying: l8r [Tue Apr 30 14:52:09 2002]
18:24:37 <Weekendophylax> paje, feed me a danish
18:24:37 <paje> Weekendophylax: i'm not following you...
18:25:01 <rzolf> talli, have _you_ looked at apache2?
18:25:18 <talli> no, but i've never even looked at oacs4
18:25:24 <rzolf> heheh.
18:25:27 <rzolf> !
18:25:43 <talli> i'm not a programmer
18:25:47 <rzolf> oh yeah.
18:25:56 <rzolf> neither am i.
18:26:02 <vinod> me neither
18:26:06 <rzolf> or at least, don't tell any girls that I am.
18:26:08 <rzolf> please.
18:26:14 <vinod> haha
18:26:36 <rzolf> sigh.
18:27:50 <Weekendophylax> :P
18:27:59 <Weekendophylax> * Weekendophylax summons his favorite Domo to eat vinod
18:28:06 <Weekendophylax> paje, attack!
18:28:07 <paje> * paje bites Mark's ankle
18:28:18 <Weekendophylax> Ahhh crap, he always does that...must not like Mark :-D
18:28:33 <rzolf> * rzolf returns to work.
18:29:11 <vinod> Weekendophylax: i'm inedible
18:29:43 <Weekendophylax> i dunno about that vinod, most people I talk to say you're incredible
18:31:36 <rzolf> if he was ink, he'd be indelible
18:32:30 <rzolf> if he was a scent, he'd be smellable
18:32:46 <rzolf> a value-added-service, resellable.
18:33:17 <rzolf> a west bank compound, shellable.
18:33:28 <vinod> * vinod blushes (i think?)
18:33:55 <rzolf> old growth redwood, fellable.
18:34:21 <rzolf> copyrightded digital media, gnutellable
18:34:27 <vinod> haha
18:34:40 <rzolf> ok i better stop.
18:34:48 <vinod> very impressive
18:36:52 <rzolf> vinod, you are a mac guy right
18:37:06 <vinod> yup
18:37:16 <rzolf> what type of machine are you using
18:37:50 <vinod> i have a powerbook g3 wallstreet (266 mhz, serial ports), but i run debian linux now cuz os9 is too slow 
18:38:37 <rzolf> heh
18:38:44 <rzolf> want to buy a tiBook
18:38:47 <rzolf> or an iBook ?
18:38:57 <vinod> me too - i can't decide which
18:39:14 <rzolf> oh i meant, do you want to buy one of mine? ;-)
18:39:28 <vinod> oops
18:39:31 <rzolf> so i can justify buying the new tiBook. 8-)
18:39:39 <vinod> though you said. *i* want to buy a tibook
18:39:43 <rzolf> heh
18:39:47 <rzolf> i want to buy the new one.
18:40:09 <vinod> my dad just bought the tibook 667 (just before the new ones came out)
18:40:14 <rzolf> me too. :-(
18:40:38 <rzolf> i dont care too much, though. i kinda want a desktop system
18:40:53 <rzolf> er. but i guess i should think about getting a "home" first.
18:41:04 <vinod> haha
18:41:17 <vinod> the docwolf experiment isn't working?
18:41:59 <rzolf> oh yeah, that's working fine. but if it collapses, it would be nice to be able to move into my own house, vs. my grandma's basement.
18:42:41 <vinod> true, true
18:42:54 <rzolf> especially since i yahoo mapped out how to get home, cuz i gotta go to a wedding
18:42:57 <vinod> how do you like OS X?
18:43:00 <rzolf> and it is 1860 miles from here.
18:43:14 <rzolf> OS X rules.
18:43:29 <rzolf> cuz it is unix. without X. 
18:43:38 <rzolf> i hate X.
18:44:12 <vinod> yeah. i've always like the macOS interface.
18:44:31 <rzolf> obJ-C is pretty cool for programming
18:45:24 <rzolf> :-
18:45:26 <rzolf> er.
18:45:28 <rzolf> yeah.
18:45:49 <vinod> what environment do you use? Metrowerks?
18:47:05 <donb> donb (~donb@dsl-dhogaza.pacifier.net) has joined #openacs
18:47:29 <Weekendophylax> paje, greet don
18:47:29 <paje> Weekendophylax: i'm not following you...
18:47:32 <Weekendophylax> paje, greet
18:47:33 <paje> * paje greets donb
18:47:38 <vinod> hey donb!
18:47:44 <donb> Hi folks ...
18:48:00 <donb> What's up?
18:48:53 <talli> hey do
18:48:58 <talli> donb:
18:49:47 <vinod> i'm playing with the CR
18:50:21 <talli> gross, vinod. what did i tell you about you and your "games"
18:50:22 <talli> ?
18:50:46 <talli> i mean, is this "CR" even of consenting age?
18:50:55 <vinod> talli: hey it's all consensual
18:51:14 <talli> that's what oscar wilde said.
18:51:16 <donb> He's going to work in a hospital - CR == "Consenting Resident".  Over 18 for sure ...
18:51:19 <talli> look what happened to him
18:51:35 <vinod> it's the CR's fault anyway - showing off all those functions, pushing objects in my face
18:51:49 <vinod> donb: haha
18:52:03 <talli> donb: probably more like Comatose Resident
18:52:07 <donb> "Most of us end up lying in the gutter.  Only some of us are looking at the stars" Oscar Wilde (paraphrase) ...
18:52:34 <talli> "Any preoccupation with what is right or wrong is a sign of an arrested intellectual development"
18:52:36 <donb> I see, he drugs them first ... clever
18:52:47 <donb> That's pretty good, too, Talli ...
18:53:40 <talli> hey donb, if you're interested in polishing off some of your god-like C dev skills and participating in yet another free software project, i've got one for you...
18:54:14 <donb> What's wrong, did momentum grind to a halt?  Or otherwise break laws of physics?
18:54:34 <talli> yes. the keg went dry.
18:54:39 <vinod> lol
18:54:41 <talli> momentum just crapped out after that
18:55:02 <Weekendophylax> paje, seen davb
18:55:03 <paje> davb was last seen on #openacs 1 hours, 14 minutes and 44 seconds ago, saying: hi vinod [Sat May  4 11:40:59 2002]
18:55:13 <Weekendophylax> paje, revive davb
18:55:13 <paje> * paje gives davb CPR
18:56:16 <donb> That's a big project, Talli ... 
18:56:29 <talli> yeah, it could be
18:56:37 <talli> but there's more of the project around than you might think
18:56:49 <donb> there's less of me than you might think :)
18:57:07 <talli> there's already a rather complete C library for parsing iCalednar stuff
18:57:10 <talli> oh, yea, i know that :)
18:57:22 <donb> Parsing the stuff's the easy part ...
18:57:34 <talli> while i would love to lock you in a shack to build the server, i've already for markd2 for that
18:57:40 <rzolf> vinod, was on phone.
18:57:43 <talli> there are others interested too
18:57:49 <rzolf> i just use emacs, and project builder.
18:57:56 <rzolf> hello donb.
18:58:06 <vinod> rzolf: oh cool
18:58:10 <donb> It would be great to have, Talli ... rzolf==Rolf I presume?
18:58:16 <rzolf> yes
18:58:23 <talli> as far as building the multi-threaded stuff and much of the rest of the server internals, we're looking at building on top of the Apache Portabel Runtime
18:58:28 <rzolf> vinod: i used metroworks a long time ago to write a palm app.
18:58:31 <talli> which gives you a lot of that stuff already
18:58:35 <rzolf> but it was metroworks on NT.
18:59:05 <donb> I imagine most of the pieces are lying around waiting to be cobbled together, but it's still a lot of cobbling ...
18:59:17 <talli> donb: yes, of course. totally. i agree
18:59:35 <rzolf> my great great uncle was the finest cobbler in all of copenhagen.
18:59:37 <talli> some of us have managed to pull some good people together so far, though.
18:59:51 <donb> That's cool, I hope not too many of them are OpenACS folks ...
19:00:01 <talli> :)
19:00:09 <talli> no, none of them really
19:00:35 <donb> That's good ... there's a lot for us to hammer out over the next several months, now that we essentially have a stable PG/Oracle platform to build on 
19:01:16 <talli> can i please request that the #1A fix in oacs4.6 is the friggin' user permissions page?
19:01:21 <donb> I don't suppose Lars is actually paying attention?  Lars are you there? 
19:01:28 <talli> larspind:
19:01:42 <talli> that might bump him. i don't think he's around, though
19:01:44 <donb> Roger Williams is working on that and associated subsite UI issues
19:01:57 <talli> ah, cool
19:01:59 <donb> Slowly but surely ...
19:02:08 <talli> roger's doing some very cool NPO work
19:02:30 <talli> for the city of East Palo Alto, which in the early 90's was the murder capitol of the US
19:02:32 <donb> He needs to find the time to move over to OpenACS ...
19:02:39 <talli> oh, right
19:02:42 <talli> they're on ACS4.2
19:02:46 <donb> Right
19:03:01 <donb> He wants to integrate, but needs the time ...
19:03:15 <talli> what's also cool abotu their project, though, is that they've trained some hackers from the community to work on the project
19:03:30 <donb> That is cool.
19:03:44 <talli> some of the sponsorship for the project is from PluggedIn, which is kinda the first community tech center in the country
19:04:35 <talli> so it's a very cool project.
19:04:49 <talli> they really ought to dump oracle, though, if they can
19:04:55 <talli> that will eat up their budget over time
19:05:06 <talli> as it will eat up the state of CA's....
19:05:37 <donb> We really need to OpenACS it.  Their vanilla packages would probably work right out of the box.  Greenpeace's development site installed under OpenACS with a grand total of two lines of code being changed.
19:05:54 <talli> whoa
19:05:55 <talli> nice
19:06:03 <talli> does GP expect to move to PG?
19:06:18 <talli> i mean, talk about a budget eater...
19:06:34 <talli> they don't have much in the first place
19:10:20 <donb> The long-term plan is to consider that, yes.  Their budget's not as low as you might think, not over time.  The budget for development was low but that's partly because of past mishaps even before the last contractor screwed up.  They spent a lot of money and got nowhere, so there's relatively little money to launch this first go-round
19:10:41 <talli> ah, i see
19:10:44 <donb> But they have long-term steady plans ... having said that, it would be easy to move them to PG, a few weeks work.
19:10:50 <talli> very cool!
19:11:43 <donb> Of course all depends on this early version being a success ...
19:13:14 <talli> well, as long as Coddo was working on it, it was a failure
19:13:26 <talli> since you've picked it up it seems to have progressed a great deal
19:13:31 <talli> at least the morale of their team is much higher
19:15:07 <donb> Lars and I have pushed things along steadily, yes
19:15:17 <donb> And the morale is much higher over there, too
19:16:58 <donb> Did you see my little demo of form templating at http://greenpeace.org/form-test?  Everyone should take a peek then swear to use the template formbuilder forever more ...
19:17:28 <talli> it's a broken link on my end
19:17:39 <talli> is the form builder working now? did you guys fix it up?
19:18:20 <donb> sorry development.greenpeace.org/form-test
19:18:52 <donb> It has always worked, except for some of the widgets.  I fixed some problems with the date and currency widgets about three months ago, it seems to work quite well.  Lars used it for the bug tracker
19:19:12 <vinod> cool!
19:19:16 <donb> I've build a high-level, ad_page_contract kinda thingy to make it a *lot* easier to use and plan to start trying it out on greenpeace admin pages soon
19:19:23 <donb> I assume that means Vinod tried it?
19:19:59 <vinod> well, just took a look at your url. are the style-changes done just by css?
19:20:24 <donb> They're done by the form builder's built in "style" facility, which has existed forever but which is little known (or even less)
19:20:50 <vinod> ok, i gotta try this now
19:20:52 <donb> <formtemplate style="coddo"></formtemplate> ...
19:21:07 <talli> wow, that is very cool
19:21:28 <talli> is this the event management system that you're also building for sloan?
19:21:31 <donb> Ping me tomorrow and I'll send you a copy of my new "ad_form" proc that makes use of it much, much easier
19:21:31 <talli> or that furfly is?
19:21:44 <donb> Ot
19:21:47 <abbaJ> abbaJ has quit ("Client Exiting")
19:22:00 <donb> I used one of the admin pages as a sample, yes.
19:22:46 <donb> Anyway - yes, it is cool because it gives a way to change the look and feel of everything in one place.  That is, everything that uses the form builder
19:23:26 <talli> that is very cool
19:23:50 <davb> It would be nice if the style changer saved a cookie.
19:24:06 <talli> hey davb
19:24:12 <davb> hi
19:24:58 <davb> and used CSS
19:25:15 <davb> ah, it does :)
19:25:19 <donb> You can write your own form template that uses CSS, no problem at all
19:25:44 <donb> I mean separate from the CSS already being used ...
19:25:48 <davb> I'll have to look at that.
19:26:08 <donb> You've probably been typing <input type=text ...> all these years, eh?
19:26:17 <vinod> so you could do <formtemplate style=@style@></formtemplate> and set @style@ dynamically, right?
19:26:27 <donb> That's exactly how this example works, Vinod
19:26:30 <davb> yeah, but it puts all the stuff right in the code.
19:26:47 <donb> Not sure what you mean, Dave?
19:27:04 <davb> IF you had 3 stylesheets and switched between them, all the code could stay the same.
19:27:04 <talli> for the less connected, the form builder auto-builds the table from a description table, right?
19:27:36 <davb> ie: <tr bgcolor="#5F6090"> becomes <tr class="tr_class">
19:28:19 <Weekendophylax> So, how was the movie dave?
19:28:40 <donb> Dave - there's nothing to stop one from writing a form template that does work this way.  The ones in the toolkit don't.  The "Coddo" style you see there partially does.  The bgcolor's hardwired but the fonts are CSS'd.  I just copied what they had cut-and-pasted into over 100 scripts ...
19:29:02 <donb> (I mean they have 100 templates making these forms and I made one stylesheet)
19:29:05 <talli> * talli just registers that Creedence rocks
19:29:44 <donb> In fact, Dave, an ideal "standard" form template *would* use CSS to parameterize everything, and then provide a standard CSS sheet to go with it.
19:30:07 <donb> Then the form templates would just be providing the structure of the page, not the details as to font, color, etc.
19:30:49 <donb> It's just a matter of writing such a template, though, and distributing it.  We'll take other templates.  Lars just committed one he put together for the bug tracker
19:31:08 <donb> It would be great to have a couple of dozen standard form templates to choose from ...
19:31:37 <davb> ok.
19:31:41 <davb> that is great.
19:31:59 <davb> I will look at it later. I can probably work on that.
19:32:09 <davb> hi.
19:32:12 <donb> Talli - the form builder doesn't use a description table.  You have to build it line-by-line via a verbose Tcl API that drives me nuts.  That's why I wrote this "ad_form" higher-level wrapper over the last couple of days.  Now you declare forms declaratively.  It handles key generation etc automatically for you ...
19:32:20 <donb> Like this (everyone shut up for a minute):
19:32:23 <donb> ad_form -form {
19:32:39 <donb>     my_object_id:key(acs_object_id_seq)
19:33:05 <donb>    text(checkbox) {options {"" "t"}} {value "f"}}
19:33:17 <donb> } -validate {
19:33:24 <donb> (validation expressions if any)
19:33:27 <donb> } -add_data {
19:33:35 <donb> (do your insert here)
19:33:40 <donb> } -edit_data {
19:33:44 <donb> (do your update here
19:33:45 <donb> }
19:33:47 <donb> ad_return_template
19:34:19 <donb> And you're done ... all the logic for figuring out if the page is in request mode, submit mode, valid or not valid, etc is handled by "ad_form" ... makes forms almost fun
19:35:33 <donb> I'll try to put together an example soon and commit to the tree ... the really nice thing is it's handling of the various modes a self-submit page are in ...
19:35:39 <donb> (various states)
19:37:20 <donb> (Don sees a big typo in his example, tough titties said the kitties when the milk ran dry)
19:37:34 <vinod> could you explain that text(checkbox) line?
19:37:43 <donb> That's the typo, I mean:
19:37:52 <vinod> oops :-)
19:37:53 <donb> my_checkbox_field:text(checkbox) etc ...
19:38:18 <donb> The idea is that you have a field_name:datatype(widget) then a bunch of additional stuff ...
19:38:26 <vinod> got it
19:38:32 <vinod> that is cool!
19:38:34 <donb> These notions only make sense if you understand the form builder ...
19:39:05 <donb> foo:integer needs no widget normally (nor does a normal text datatype) because the formbuilder provides default widgets
19:39:20 <vinod> so it would take care of pre-filling the forms if you are in edit mode (eg)?
19:39:35 <donb> Yeah, the other typo, forgot:
19:39:39 <donb> ad_form -form {
19:39:48 <donb> my_field:text(checkbox)
19:39:53 <donb> } -select_query {
19:40:09 <donb> select my_field from my_table where my_object_id = :my_object_id
19:40:11 <donb> } ...
19:40:27 <donb> or better "-select_query [db_map get_my_values]"
19:40:57 <donb> I want it to be just "-select_query_name get_may_values" but there are scoping issues with the query dispatcher I don't have time to deal with at the moment
19:41:13 <vinod> got it. can't wait to try it out :-)
19:41:16 <donb> (get_my_values, I have a bad paper cut on my right index finger)
19:41:26 <donb> (I need a doctor, Vinod, quick, save me!)
19:41:35 <vinod> * vinod looks around for docwolf 
19:42:05 <donb> I've been wanting to write this higher-level wrapper for the form builder *forever*, finally just sat down and did it
19:42:33 <talli> donb: you can't rely on vinod for anything medical. once he lost that malpractice insurance, he's been like a rat in the sun...
19:42:36 <donb> It does other stuff, too, the form builder supplies "acquire" and "get_property" for munging data between its internal and SQL format.  Dates and currency ...
19:43:07 <talli> donb: how much dev time is the form builder saving you?
19:43:11 <donb> And my "ad_form" proc applies them at the right time and place.
19:43:31 <talli> or is it just the added flexibility it provides?
19:44:25 <donb> Using the old, laborious "build it line by line" way of doing it, it doesn't really save much time.  BUT self-submit forms are hard to manage without a framework.  The form builder supports that, which means you get in-form error messages (rather than "you fucked up, hit back and try not to fuck up again").  Much more user-friendly
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19:44:37 <donb> Now ... ad_form on the other hand *really* simplifies stuff ...
19:44:56 <donb> I think this new form wrapper can help save considerable time ...
19:45:06 <talli> very cool
19:45:26 <donb> And the fact that it does the management of state "under the cover" without you having to remember when you should do what should really help.
19:46:11 <donb> The form builder API itself is very low level ... the wrapper lets you pretty much just write the necessary dml statements, validation exprs, etc
19:46:11 <talli> btw, what is the status of the event management system? janine mentioned it was about 3/4 done for Sloan at the social
19:46:51 <donb> It's pretty much in Janine and Walter's hands at this point.  I need to add some spamming capability, OF just made the first commit of their rehacked mail package today 
19:47:22 <talli> killer
19:48:42 <donb> Well ... it's about time for me to go off and get some coffee, start slogging on the Greenpeace code beautification project again ...
19:49:45 <talli> later donb
19:49:49 <talli> thanks for coming by
19:49:56 <talli> that form-builder seems awesome
19:50:54 <donb> Well it's been there all along, I'm just providing a framework that handles the nitty-gritty details 
19:51:45 <donb> bye for now, folks!
19:51:48 <donb> donb has quit ("changing universes")
19:52:44 <Weekendophylax> paje, revive davb
19:52:44 <paje> * paje gives davb CPR
19:53:00 <markd2> paje, clear!
19:53:00 <paje> * paje applies defibrulator paddles to *phylax
19:54:55 <Weekendophylax> ouch
19:55:06 <Weekendophylax> paje, attack!
19:55:06 <paje> * paje bites Mark's ankle
19:55:16 <Weekendophylax> :D
19:56:25 <markd2> heh
20:01:20 <Weekendophylax> * Weekendophylax scares Mark with a huge Domokun
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20:03:14 <markd2> awww, domo-kun is cute!
20:04:23 <Weekendophylax> paje, transform!
20:04:24 <paje> * paje transforms into a big fuzzy domo-kun
20:25:53 <vinod> anyone have an OACS4 instance running to verify a simple bug for me?
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