00:00:32 <rbm> new Outlook (2000, 2002) vulnerability allows your PC to be 0wn3d by forwarding or redirecting messages.
00:00:41 <syslogd> nice
00:02:37 <syslogd> Roberto, what is your fastest computer?
00:03:01 <rbm> Debian is funky. People submit bug reports with what they think is the gramatically correct description of the package.
00:03:07 <rbm> syslogd: K6-2 300
00:04:24 <syslogd> ok
00:11:30 <rbm> * rbm goes out to try to get his car working, again
00:11:48 <syslogd> Roberto, do you know where we can look up if the onboard sound on the ECS will work in Linux?
00:20:34 <AaronSw> AaronSw has left #openacs
01:41:46 <syslogd> oh shit
01:41:54 <syslogd> Roberto: http://www.soyousa.com/images/800x600_products_mb/kt333_dragon_ultra(silver).jpg
01:42:01 <syslogd> And look! It's Linux compatible :)
02:04:24 <rbm> * rbm is back, frustrated once again
02:05:08 <rbm> syslogd: That's a pretty board
02:06:03 <talli> hey rbm
02:06:34 <talli> i went over to fscs.usu.edu and recruited some of your usu guys to momentum
02:08:54 <davb> davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
02:11:39 <davb> hi
02:14:13 <talli> hey davb
02:15:22 <davb> openacs is in a slow time right now. 
02:15:34 <talli> how so?
02:15:52 <davb> bboard seems slow. did you get any messages today? (maybe its my email :)
02:17:17 <talli> quite a few
02:17:40 <rbm> talli: fslc? really?
02:17:53 <talli> yeah
02:18:01 <talli> you didn't see me?
02:18:04 <talli> in #linux
02:18:34 <rbm> talli: I just got back from trying to fix my very old, fridging, break-every-other-month car
02:18:52 <talli> ah, bummer
02:19:07 <rbm> I'm not good with cars
02:19:19 <syslogd> hey
02:19:21 <syslogd> it's roberto
02:19:23 <syslogd> and dave
02:19:25 <syslogd> and talli
02:19:27 <syslogd> wow
02:19:34 <syslogd> I'm missing the party...AGAIN
02:20:20 <syslogd> * syslogd is trying to find cheap parts for Roberto
02:20:32 <rbm> * rbm is trying to find a decent paying job
02:20:38 <syslogd> :-/
02:21:12 <rbm> Today I spent hours going between my advisor, the school of graduate studies, the registrar's office and the dean's office
02:21:24 <rbm> Everybody says one different thing about graduation, split forms and stuff
02:21:39 <syslogd> that sucks
02:21:48 <rbm> But I think I finally figured it ouht
02:23:01 <syslogd> Roberto
02:23:11 <syslogd> I insist you get the Soyo Dragon+
02:23:16 <rbm> Oh, why's that?
02:23:31 <syslogd> Because they claim Linux/FreeBSD compatibility
02:23:42 <syslogd> I know it's one of the things more important to you ;)
02:23:56 <davb> argh. i have't gotten any openacs mail today.
02:24:09 <syslogd> * syslogd sends some random mail to dave to make him happier
02:24:15 <davb> heh
02:24:50 <syslogd> check your mail
02:27:45 <rbm> my mail?
02:28:05 <syslogd> no
02:28:06 <syslogd> dave
02:28:52 <davb> heh
02:29:46 <syslogd> :)
02:29:58 <syslogd> Does it make you feel warm and fuzzy inside now that you got some OpenACS mail?
02:30:08 <davb> sure.
02:30:15 <syslogd> Excellent
02:30:22 <davb> i have one from yesterday, but none of the openacs mail from today arrived, except yours.
02:30:40 <davb> all mine are even older than rbm's computer.
02:30:45 <syslogd> lol
02:30:58 <syslogd> you know, notice was used for a reason
02:31:07 <syslogd> * syslogd thwaps© davb with some Oacs mail
02:32:54 <davb> ah.
02:33:19 <davb> sorry :). my client did not make a clear distinction.
02:33:41 <syslogd> * syslogd punches dave in the eye...does it make a clear distinction now?
02:34:03 <davb> ow
02:34:08 <syslogd> I got Grand Jury Duty on Monday
02:34:14 <syslogd> I'm not getting paid for it either
02:34:18 <davb> ick
02:34:19 <syslogd> sux to be meeee
02:38:54 <rbm> syslogd: Hey, you could have an old screwed up car and have a college-sallary job!
02:39:14 <syslogd> wait, I have that already
02:40:39 <syslogd> lucky for me I still live with my mommy and daddy
02:43:38 <rbm> Crap. There are so many frigging details to watch out for in a Debian package.
02:43:45 <syslogd> lol
02:44:34 <syslogd> hrm
02:44:35 <syslogd> Roberto
02:44:47 <syslogd> :)
02:45:01 <syslogd> you need to e-mail me your address so I can send you a check
02:45:33 <rbm> syslogd: okay. 
02:46:21 <rbm> sent
02:46:56 <syslogd> Is your PayPal in that e-mail addy too? Just in case I do paypal
02:48:21 <rbm> syslogd: yes.
02:49:32 <syslogd> k
02:53:48 <syslogd> Roberto
02:54:02 <syslogd> look at hte first question
02:55:26 <syslogd> actually, they're all relevant
02:56:12 <rbm> syslogd: Okay.
02:58:00 <rbm> * rbm fixes bugs on his debian package
03:00:03 <rbm> * rbm promises to pay it forward when it has money.
03:00:14 <rbm> s/it/he/
03:00:35 <syslogd> hehe
03:00:57 <talli> ok guys
03:01:01 <talli> i'm going to sleep
03:01:05 <talli> talk to you tomorrow
03:01:08 <rbm> talli: Go to paypal before
03:01:19 <syslogd> ok, see ya talli
03:04:17 <syslogd> * syslogd rearranges a few more things on the wishlist
03:05:43 <syslogd> does that ATI card supported under *nix?
03:06:45 <davb> ATI has excellent linux support.
03:06:53 <syslogd> heh
03:06:56 <davb> i think its in the kernel.
03:06:59 <syslogd> I wish I could say the same thing for windows
03:07:13 <davb> ack
03:07:26 <davb> i use nvidia, in case I decide to play games.
03:07:52 <davb> well, i too will depart, for now.
03:08:00 <syslogd> me 3
03:08:47 <syslogd> Roberto...which video card did you want
03:09:15 <syslogd> the ATI Radeon 7000 comes in a few diff flavors
03:10:15 <rbm> Hmmm, I guess I should take into consideration that this computer will be occasionally be dual-booted into windows for games
03:10:26 <syslogd> ok
03:10:32 <syslogd> Cuz the way I have it configured right now
03:10:35 <syslogd> it comes to 400$ flat
03:10:40 <rbm> In which case I should probably go with nvidia (puke) because everybody says the Windows ATI drivers suck
03:10:59 <syslogd> Well my Radeon 8500 runs well under windows
03:11:10 <rbm> How much?
03:11:27 <syslogd> you have the 47$ Radeon 7000 with 64MB of SDR w/tv for 47$
03:11:38 <syslogd> For the Radeon 8500?
03:11:47 <syslogd> I got mine for 100$ after I cheated CompUSA
03:11:55 <syslogd> It costs about 200$
03:12:24 <davb> yeah. 
03:12:34 <davb> oh bye :)
03:12:35 <rbm> wow
03:12:39 <davb> davb has quit ("Client Exiting")
03:12:40 <syslogd> * syslogd thwaps dave
03:13:54 <syslogd> the 35, 39 or 47$?
03:14:08 <syslogd> you originally picked the 47$ one in your wishlist
03:15:55 <rbm> You're up to $400 now?
03:16:12 <syslogd> 399.99$ sent to your door
03:16:18 <rbm> gulp!
03:16:25 <syslogd> I made a few changes here and there
03:16:47 <rbm> I wish my boss would pay me the money she owes me
03:17:05 <syslogd> Specifically: Changed your motherboard for a Soyo Dragon+ and changed the Duron 1.2Ghz to 1Ghz (yours was out of stock again)
03:19:41 <rbm> The MSI is well supported on Linux too, although I think the Dragon has a much better on-board sound card
03:19:46 <rbm> s/card/chipset/
03:19:49 <syslogd> yes
03:20:09 <syslogd> And they put it on their site too..that their board is Linux/BSD friendly
03:20:15 <rbm> But for less that the extra $40 I could probably buy a pretty good sound card
03:20:29 <syslogd> Also true
03:20:37 <rbm> s/that/than/
03:20:46 <syslogd> the SB Live! 5.1 is only 32$
03:21:00 <syslogd> hehehe
03:21:02 <syslogd> ok
03:21:05 <syslogd> I have a better idea
03:21:11 <syslogd> I'll just send you money
03:21:20 <syslogd> :)
03:21:23 <rbm> (:
03:21:43 <rbm> * rbm notices syslogd has no more patience to deal with rbm's woes :)
03:21:49 <syslogd> lol
03:21:55 <syslogd> I do
03:22:02 <syslogd> I do this to people all the time too
03:27:46 <syslogd> i'm going to bed
03:27:50 <syslogd> see ya laters
03:28:57 <rbm> later
03:31:09 <rbm> Can I change the "from" address on the fly on mutt?
03:36:02 <rbm> spuk: Sim. Descobri. Na tela onde se aperta "y" para enviar a mensagem, basta tecla <ESC> f para editar o endereco
03:36:09 <rbm> errr
03:41:40 <hazmat> hazmat has left #openacs
11:02:27 <syslogd> yay
11:08:54 <syslogd> paje seen rbm 
11:08:55 <paje> rbm was last seen on #openacs 7 hours, 32 minutes and 45 seconds ago, saying: errr [Mon Apr 29 21:36:50 2002]
11:17:09 <syslogd> i have paid off all my recent debts
11:42:50 <jim> I heard that the win sblive drivers defeat a pci mechanism for fair share of some resource, the upshot of which is other pci cards lose out on fair share of that resource... I forget now, but the resource might be cpu time
11:43:23 <jim> hence, sblive performance looks better
11:47:34 <syslogd> well
11:47:42 <syslogd> the sb live cards come with their own processors
11:49:06 <syslogd> I think the sb live drivers just suck which is probably why they defeat the PCI mechanism
11:57:08 <syslogd> * syslogd goes to the bronx for on-site maintenance
11:57:30 <syslogd> syslogd is now known as Tuesdayphylax-aw
12:06:02 <markd2> markd2 (~markd2@h166-102-041-024.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
12:49:18 <davb> davb (~dave@rrcs-nys-24-97-22-203.biz.rr.com) has joined #openacs
12:49:23 <davb> hi
12:49:23 <paje> what's up, davb
12:50:11 <markd2> hello
12:55:47 <yzzyx> yzzyx (~sar@213-48-248-75.cro.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #openacs
12:55:52 <yzzyx> hello
12:55:53 <paje> hola, yzzyx
12:56:52 <yzzyx> davb: Have you considered buying a secondhand machine?
12:57:27 <davb> not really. I recently upgraded our computers here (at home)
12:57:43 <yzzyx> sorry htat was addressed to rbm.
12:57:54 <yzzyx> s/htat/that
12:58:25 <davb> ah :)
12:59:19 <yzzyx> rbm: Or try ebay.
13:01:04 <davb> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521562473/qid%3D1019923813/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/103-0202080-3978231
13:01:04 <oacs-chump> A: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521562473/qid%3D1019923813/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/103-0202080-3978231 from davb
13:01:14 <davb> A:|Lisp in Small Pieces
13:01:14 <oacs-chump> titled item A
13:03:24 <yzzyx> rbm: Someone may have a systems upgrade engineer contact who should be able to let you have hardware cheaply.
13:04:04 <yzzyx> bye.
13:04:08 <yzzyx> yzzyx has left #openacs
13:32:00 <davb> hmmm. still not getting openacs mail. it says i am subscribed.
13:32:09 <davb> I'll have to get rbm to check the qmail logs or something.
13:41:29 <markd2> http://crazyapplerumors.com/2002_04_28_archive.htm#85045150
13:41:29 <oacs-chump> B: http://crazyapplerumors.com/2002_04_28_archive.htm#85045150 from markd2
13:41:45 <markd2> B:| Apple Introduces Macs Starting With Remaining Letters Of The Alphabet
13:41:45 <oacs-chump> titled item B
13:46:53 <rbm> ooom
13:47:18 <markd2> wooo
13:52:37 <rbm> Wow, PostgreSQL runs on the Playstation
14:01:24 <davb> cool!
14:02:05 <davb> rbm: do you think there is any way I can find out why my openacs emails are not getting to me?
14:04:43 <rbm> davb: I guess I could look at the logs since I have r00t on the openacs.org machine
14:05:15 <davb> if it is not too much trouble. I don't want to annoy anyone :)
14:06:30 <rbm> @400000003ccea0922a0cc34c starting delivery 847001: msg 359883 to remote dave@thedesignexperience.org
14:06:30 <rbm> @400000003ccea0922a0cee44 status: local 0/10 remote 1/20
14:06:30 <rbm> @400000003ccea0922bf695d4 delivery 847001: deferral: Sorry,_I_wasn't_able_to_establish_an_SMTP_connection._(#4.4.1)/
14:06:31 <rbm> @400000003ccea0922bf6c4b4 status: local 0/10 remote 0/20
14:06:37 <rbm> The log is full of these
14:06:41 <davb> argh
14:06:43 <davb> hmmm
14:06:52 <davb> I am getting mail from other places.
14:07:05 <rbm> Let me try to send you mail from that box
14:07:09 <davb> ok.
14:09:12 <rbm> How do you flag the start of the message in SMTP?
14:10:42 <rbm> found it
14:11:24 <rbm> davb: See if you got a message from me
14:12:17 <davb> hmmm. nope
14:12:18 <davb> argh
14:12:21 <rbm> hang on
14:13:27 <davb> tada
14:13:40 <rbm> and now
14:13:49 <davb> that was delivered.
14:13:59 <rbm> I made a mistake on the first one.
14:14:41 <davb> i am not sure why it didn't work. I think what happened was that my ISP or ods.org temporarily screwed up the DNS, maybe someone is caching it still somewhere on the openacs.org side.
14:15:08 <davb> it doesn't say "which" smtp server it can't connect to huh?
14:15:59 <davb> djb has a nice overview of the smtp protocol at cr.yp.to
14:16:13 <rbm> [rmello@ny04 rmello]$ mail -v dave@thedesignexperience.org
14:16:13 <rbm> Subject: Testing via mail
14:16:13 <rbm> Foobared
14:16:13 <rbm> .
14:16:13 <rbm> Cc: 
14:16:14 <rbm> dave@thedesignexperience.org... Connecting to server1.thedesignexperience.org. via esmtp...
14:16:16 <rbm> dave@thedesignexperience.org... Deferred: Connection refused by server1.thedesignexperience.org.
14:16:26 <davb> yep. looks like a dns issue.
14:16:29 <davb> or something.
14:16:30 <paje> something is making your delete pl/pgsql procs take way too long.
14:16:34 <davb> heh
14:16:39 <davb> paje: botsnack
14:16:39 <paje> thanks davb :)
14:16:40 <rbm> heheh
14:16:57 <davb> can you do a host server1.thedesignexperience.org or whatever dns tool is installed on there?
14:17:12 <davb> (it really helps to be friends with a gatekeeper)
14:17:15 <davb> :)
14:17:30 <markd2> for me, they're 24.58.160.41
14:17:35 <davb> that is wrong.
14:17:36 <davb> argh
14:17:42 <davb> where is that coming from?
14:17:49 <davb> s/b 24.58.160.28
14:18:18 <markd2> begin spew from dig
14:18:20 <markd2> server1.thedesignexperience.org.  1d23h59m43s IN A  24.58.160.41
14:18:26 <davb> ah. 
14:18:27 <markd2> ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
14:18:27 <markd2> thedesignexperience.org.  1d23h59m43s IN NS  A.NS.ODS.org.
14:18:27 <markd2> thedesignexperience.org.  1d23h59m43s IN NS  A.NS.UK.ODS.org.
14:18:28 <markd2> thedesignexperience.org.  1d23h59m43s IN NS  B.NS.ODS.org.
14:18:28 <markd2> ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
14:18:29 <markd2> A.NS.ODS.org.           1d23h59m43s IN A  66.28.41.162
14:18:30 <markd2> A.NS.UK.ODS.org.        1d23h59m43s IN A  212.100.224.241
14:18:33 <markd2> B.NS.ODS.org.           1d23h59m43s IN A  64.3.150.188
14:18:34 <markd2> end spew
14:18:37 <davb> someone send out old stuff.
14:18:39 <davb> thanks
14:18:55 <davb> apparently ods.org was sending out the old dns for some wacky reason.
14:19:07 <davb> but it was fixed, and some caches have not expired yet.
14:19:08 <markd2> paje, spank ods.org
14:19:08 <paje> markd2: excuse me?
14:19:35 <davb> thanks alot markd2 and rbm!!
14:20:00 <davb> * davb must learn dig if he want to mess with dns
14:20:09 <rbm> davb: no problem.
14:20:24 <rbm> * rbm goes to call the towing place to have his car towed to the garage
14:20:28 <rbm> *deep sighs*
14:20:38 <davb> sorry. if I was there, I'd help you fix it.
14:20:38 <markd2> :-(
14:20:48 <davb> we could try diagnosing it over IRC :)
14:20:59 <rbm> hehe.
14:21:16 <rbm> If only my little honda had a network jack :)
14:21:22 <davb> that would be cool.
14:21:27 <davb> how many miles are on it?
14:21:42 <rbm> I made a new cable to connect my jukebox computer to the LCD display and keypad using cat5 :)
14:21:59 <rbm> 174,000=
14:22:02 <davb> neat. do the car next.
14:22:04 <rbm> or something like that
14:22:16 <davb> well, good luck.
14:22:29 <rbm> and I have to study for finals :(
14:27:42 <davb> good luck for that too!
14:30:04 <rbm> Thanks :)
16:26:32 <markd2> seen tuesdayphylax?
16:26:32 <paje> tuesdayphylax was last seen on #openacs 6 days, 13 hours, 14 minutes and 20 seconds ago, saying: werd [Tue Apr 23 21:12:52 2002]
16:26:58 <rbm> markd2: he seems to be away
16:28:25 <davb> * davb is still tackling the nearly impossible MS Office task...
16:29:54 <markd2> :-(
16:31:02 <davb> basically, if they didn't think of it, it's impossible, or nearly so.
16:31:27 <markd2> what is it you're having to do?
16:32:45 <davb> build a letter that has a list of (n) people on it. 
16:33:15 <davb> its not a problem of getting the data, but the formatting has to be "just so"
16:41:17 <markd2> which is probably pretty arbitrary
16:43:04 <davb> it is, but I work with attorneys and civil service workers.
16:44:32 <davb> http://www.techtv.com/maxheadroom/story/0%2C24330%2C3382150%2C00.html
16:44:32 <oacs-chump> C: http://www.techtv.com/maxheadroom/story/0%2C24330%2C3382150%2C00.html from davb
16:44:41 <davb> C:|Max Headroom reruns
16:44:41 <oacs-chump> titled item C
16:44:56 <markd2> mmmmm. Fiora....
16:45:17 <davb> Hey, I had a cool idea. Get the Matrix guys to extend the Max Headroom storylines.
17:14:47 <lethedrinker> lethedrinker has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:15:41 <rbm> * rbm goes to the doctor with the wife
17:16:32 <denshi> denshi (~chatzilla@adsl-216-62-223-193.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs
17:26:01 <davb> hi denshi
17:26:03 <davb> A:
17:26:03 <oacs-chump> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521562473/qid%3D1019923813/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/103-0202080-3978231
17:26:04 <oacs-chump> Lisp in Small Pieces
17:26:19 <talli> http://clients.museatech.net/momentum/
17:26:20 <oacs-chump> D: http://clients.museatech.net/momentum/ from talli
17:26:40 <davb> talli: is that etp?
17:26:42 <talli> D: Area to discuss Momentum and add feature requests and suggestions
17:26:42 <oacs-chump> added comment D1
17:26:51 <talli> no, it's the new bugtracker lars built for us
17:26:51 <davb> neat.
17:27:03 <davb> I guessed after I followed it a little further.
17:27:12 <talli> if you want to play with the bug tracker, it's there
17:31:23 <denshi> A: $90.00 new
17:31:23 <oacs-chump> added comment A1
17:31:43 <denshi> A: ...but it's the bible for modern LISP implementations.
17:31:44 <oacs-chump> added comment A2
17:34:03 <denshi> whoa.talli, those are some nice templates at your momentum page.
17:34:12 <denshi> did you sucker lars into working for you?
17:37:51 <denshi> question. has anyone done anything serious with other languages talking to an OACS database?
17:39:44 <davb> denshi: heh, I didn't look at the price.
17:39:55 <davb> denshi: frm inside aolserver?
17:40:21 <denshi> no, from elsewhere.
17:40:49 <davb> can't you just talk directly to pg? or am I missing something.
17:41:00 <denshi> you're missing something
17:41:08 <davb> as usual :)
17:41:47 <denshi> i've been testing out writing apps that talk to the oacs schema.
17:42:06 <denshi> i think the data model is the 90% win in OACS.
17:42:38 <davb> does that include the pl/sql stuff?
17:42:55 <denshi> so if I write stuff in Ruby, LISP, or Perl, I've written them all to talk to my oacs4 pg database.
17:43:18 <denshi> yes, it includes the plpgsql stuff.  that's part of the schema.
17:43:31 <denshi> so has anyone else done this?
17:47:21 <markd2> nope, just in my object GOATTRAN bindings
17:48:00 <davb> denshi: would you even need AOLserver at all for this?
17:49:12 <denshi> mark, have you written up this new goat-based language?
17:50:20 <markd2> not yet
17:50:28 <markd2> just vague references to Leviticus
17:51:56 <denshi> a Leviticus reference might be hard to GC.
17:52:51 <markd2> you bet your Deuteronomy!
17:55:38 <vinod> vinod (~vinod@207-172-102-115.s877.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs
17:57:29 <denshi> it's secret agent pants.
17:57:38 <denshi> what's new, vinod?
17:58:38 <vinod> hey denshi 
17:59:03 <vinod> not much new - just recovering from a painful night shift
17:59:22 <vinod> * vinod is getting too old for night shifts
18:00:16 <denshi> wtf?  I thought you didn't start for a couple more months.
18:00:24 <denshi> are you still working in Boston?
18:00:57 <vinod> yeah - i'm still in boston. once i start in nyc - no more night shifts!
18:00:58 <markd2> street walking again?
18:01:14 <vinod> heh
18:01:57 <vinod> yeah, but it's hard drumming up business, even without pants
18:05:48 <davb> hi vinod
18:06:43 <vinod> hey davb 
18:22:15 <til> til has quit ("[BX] Leggo my Eggo!")
18:38:32 <markd2> mmmm.. waffles....
19:21:14 <rbm> "schema"?
19:22:04 <rbm> s/^/denshi: /
19:22:42 <rbm> * rbm grabbed his Cap and Gown
19:22:59 <denshi> was that a buffer paste in the wrong window, or do you really think all /^ / should be prefixed with my nom de guerre?
19:23:48 <markd2> markd2 has quit ("Bork")
19:32:32 <rbm> My regexp put "denshi: " before my previous phrase.
19:35:23 <denshi> oh.
19:36:02 <denshi> I thought you were proposing a plan to hack the world's biggest IP switches and add a s/^ /denshi: / filter to all the world's traffic.
19:36:09 <rbm> (:
19:36:56 <denshi> so what's your question?
19:37:05 <denshi> furthermore, why aren't you studying?
19:38:44 <talli> rbm: you graduate this week?
19:38:46 <talli> today?
19:47:05 <rzolf> rzolf (~rolf@badgertronics.com) has joined #openacs
19:49:37 <rzolf> re.
19:49:52 <talli> hey rzolf
19:50:45 <rzolf> wuzzup.
19:50:49 <rzolf> is roberto around?
19:52:27 <rzolf> roberto mello, that is.
19:53:52 <denshi> he's busy graduating and hacking peering points.
19:54:14 <rzolf> peering points.
19:54:55 <rzolf> i've been cracking my steering joints.
19:55:00 <rzolf> and arthritis is setting in.
19:56:48 <denshi> I thought only cars had steering joints
19:56:48 <rzolf> hm
19:56:59 <denshi> how're those mecha implants settling in?
19:57:13 <denshi> rbm was here 5 minutes ago...
19:57:16 <denshi> paje, seen rbm?
19:57:16 <paje> rbm was last seen on #openacs 21 minutes and 6 seconds ago, saying: (: [Tue Apr 30 13:36:50 2002]
19:57:38 <rzolf> what's new in the world of #openacs.
19:58:24 <denshi> paje, what's new?
19:58:24 <paje> i think new is already done too.
19:58:32 <rzolf> paje, gitdown
19:58:32 <paje> gitfunky
19:58:40 <denshi> paje, botsnack.
19:58:40 <paje> :)
19:59:05 <denshi> what's new.....
19:59:19 <rzolf> paje, please deposit $18,000 in unmarked bills into the designated account
19:59:19 <paje> rzolf: i'm not following you...
19:59:24 <denshi> rbm is graduating, talli is taking over the calendaring world, vinod is moving to NYC....
19:59:59 <rzolf> i also heard little paje has become quite a handsome young bot.
20:00:46 <rzolf> calendering, eh?
20:03:52 <denshi> jim has some debian stuff, davb is hacking the nsd tcl interpreters to fix environment bugs, lotsa mail stuff going around here
20:04:15 <rzolf> has the OS/360 port been completed.
20:04:58 <denshi> of debian?  there's the 390 port, but I haven't heard of the 360.
20:06:15 <lethedrinker> lethedrinker (~kapil@216.154.243.230) has joined #openacs
20:07:06 <rzolf> whoa. lethedrinker.
20:07:12 <denshi> rzolf, you've probably done this:
20:07:41 <denshi> oacs-logger, other languages
20:07:42 <denshi> I'm logging. I don't understand 'other languages', denshi.  Try /msg oacs-logger help
20:07:49 <denshi> crap.
20:08:25 <denshi> rzolf, earlier I asked the group is anyone has written non-tcl-and-nsd apps that talk primarily to the OACS schema.  have you?
20:08:27 <rzolf> rzolf is now known as acheronimbibe
20:08:42 <acheronimbibe> sort of.
20:09:33 <acheronimbibe> i have not used the OACS4 schema though.
20:09:45 <acheronimbibe> i'm not very smart and it is a tough one to figure out.
20:10:31 <acheronimbibe> however the docwolf.project is utilizing a variant of the OACS3.x schema
20:10:37 <acheronimbibe> and is being talked to by python.
20:10:52 <denshi> cool.
20:10:55 <acheronimbibe> but it is only using like 4% of the OACS schema.
20:11:14 <denshi> oh.  well, acs3.x was just training wheels for most apps.
20:11:18 <acheronimbibe> beyond the "users" table.
20:11:32 <denshi> it takes a while, but I've used much more of the 4.x schema.
20:18:09 <acheronimbibe> it takes longer for me to figure out what is going on in other people's schemas than it does to just write my own schema.
20:18:09 <acheronimbibe> acheronimbibe is now known as rzolf
20:18:09 <rzolf> has anyone worked with webobjects?
20:18:09 <denshi> i was once attacked by webobjects in a dark alley
20:18:09 <rzolf> it seems out of control, but potentially a good way to make money in the financials industry
20:18:09 <denshi> after that experience, I shared a last-caltrain-is-gone cab down the SF peninsula with a couple other caltrain victims, who turned out to be ... webobjects engineers!!
20:18:18 <rzolf> wow.
20:18:33 <rzolf> also, i've heard that webobjects autogenerates forms.
20:18:36 <denshi> 40 minutes of uncontrolled database argument.
20:18:44 <denshi> they'll never say hi to a stranger again.
20:18:52 <rzolf> is that available in openacs yet?
20:19:17 <denshi> form generation?
20:19:20 <rzolf> yes
20:19:29 <denshi> yes, in several ways.
20:19:33 <denshi> lemme get you a link
20:19:57 <rzolf> i like ad_page_contract
20:20:16 <rzolf> but the last time i looked at OACS i didn not see anything that just automagically built forms for you.
20:20:27 <yzzyx> yzzyx (~sar@213-48-252-21.cro.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #openacs
20:20:29 <rzolf> actually i think that is more of a function of the editor anyway.
20:20:36 <rzolf> yzzyx.
20:20:59 <rzolf> thus I wrote some emacs macros to do it.
20:21:05 <lethedrinker> hello
20:21:27 <denshi> can you send me those macros?
20:21:35 <rzolf> sure.
20:21:40 <rzolf> you need tempo.el
20:22:04 <rzolf> and html-helper-mode
20:22:26 <lethedrinker> rzolf: how does the python talk to the openacs3x db layer?
20:22:35 <rzolf> with psycopg
20:22:38 <lethedrinker> rzolf: ie. is there an abstraction layer?
20:22:50 <lethedrinker> or are you just playing around with raw queries and directly with the tables?
20:23:08 <yzzyx> Hello
20:23:08 <paje> bonjour, yzzyx
20:23:24 <rzolf> i wrote a function library that mimics the openacs db_ library.
20:23:54 <rzolf> i'm not doing anything beyond that.
20:24:13 <lethedrinker> ic
20:24:29 <rzolf> i noticed your PageContract thing at zopelabs.
20:24:36 <rzolf> i wrote something similar
20:24:42 <rzolf> also called PageContract.
20:24:43 <rzolf> hehe.
20:24:45 <lethedrinker> i've been playing around with an idea of autogenerating classes from the pg data dictionary
20:25:00 <lethedrinker> yes it is. its designed after ad_page_contract.
20:25:10 <lethedrinker> a little more flexible.. but same philosophy.
20:25:22 <rzolf> i have been thinking of autogenerating stuff, but for the most part I try not to think very hard
20:25:34 <lethedrinker> most people in the zope community use Formulator which also does form generation.
20:26:00 <rzolf> yes i have noticed that.
20:26:24 <lethedrinker> but page contract is a little more flexible for my usages... although i like formulator's form generation.
20:26:52 <lethedrinker> i tend to use page contract as generic method input validation.. not just for forms.
20:27:13 <lethedrinker> does anyone here understand the tree encoding schema in acs4??
20:27:25 <rzolf> that seems like a good idea. however i never really input from sources other than forms.
20:27:38 <rzolf> aside from CVS files.
20:28:01 <denshi> lethedrinker: what do you mean 'tree encoding'?
20:28:13 <denshi> you mean, the adjacency list model?
20:28:31 <lethedrinker> rzolf: me neither, but in large systems it functions somewhat akin to a method contract... which helps as systems grow large, esp. in a dynamic language like.
20:28:50 <lethedrinker> denshi: umm... sure.. i mean the varbit encoding scheme for tree heirarchies.
20:30:01 <lethedrinker> i was wondering how to go about selecting all the children of a given node, ie can i just do a select against the table with a  like operation against the sort_key column with my target node's sor_key
20:31:06 <rzolf> sadly I tend to avoid keeping up with the system as it grows, unless my salary is growing accordingly
20:31:50 <davb> bbl.
20:31:56 <davb> davb has quit ()
20:47:05 <rzolf> Well, sure, the Frinkiac-7 looks impressive, But I predict that within 100 years computers will be twice as powerful, 10,000 times larger, and so expensive that only the five richest kings in Europe will own them."
20:48:29 <denshi> simpsons quote?
20:48:38 <rzolf> yes
20:51:05 <denshi> i've gotta run
20:51:13 <denshi> can you email me your formgen macros?
20:51:25 <rzolf> yes
20:51:25 <rzolf> i gotta go too. unless roberto is back.
20:51:28 <denshi> l8r
20:51:36 <denshi> denshi has quit ()
20:54:16 <rbm> http://hypersql.sourceforge.net/
20:54:17 <oacs-chump> E: http://hypersql.sourceforge.net/ from rbm
20:54:25 <rbm> E:| Generate HTML descriptions from SQL files
20:54:25 <oacs-chump> titled item E
20:54:36 <rbm> http://hyperschema.sourceforge.net
20:54:37 <oacs-chump> F: http://hyperschema.sourceforge.net from rbm
20:54:39 <lethedrinker> dbdoc.sf.net
20:54:40 <rzolf> hello rbm.
20:54:43 <lethedrinker> in  python even ;)
20:54:51 <rbm> F:| Similarly, generate HTML descriptions from SQL files
20:54:52 <oacs-chump> titled item F
20:55:01 <lethedrinker> http://dbdoc.sf.net
20:55:01 <oacs-chump> G: http://dbdoc.sf.net from lethedrinker
20:55:05 <rbm> * rbm looks at dbdoc
20:55:20 <lethedrinker> G: ditto re html gen for oracle and pgsql, fairly basic, in python
20:55:21 <oacs-chump> added comment G1
20:55:37 <lethedrinker> G:| bah
20:55:38 <oacs-chump> titled item G
20:56:21 <rbm> rzolf: Sorry I didn't notice you were looking for me earlier
20:56:27 <rzolf> np.
20:57:42 <yzzyx> rbm: Have you got a definite plan to buy your new computer?
20:58:20 <lethedrinker> rbm: could you help me out with a pg tree question?
20:58:22 <rzolf> what type of computer are you going to buy?
20:58:38 <rbm> yzzyx: I'm trying to, but by definition things are only "definite" (certain) if you have all the resources to accomplish a certain goal, and that's not my case :-)
20:59:22 <rbm> lethedrinker: I saw your question earlier... Like I said, I don't remember the adjacency model that well anymore. It's been a while.
20:59:35 <rbm> lethedrinker: However, I think I have an e-mail from Joe Celko that explained it quite well
20:59:46 <rbm> lethedrinker: The best thing is to just ask in the bboards.
20:59:59 <lethedrinker> rbm: is that the same letter thats on techdocs.pg.org ?
21:00:25 <rbm> lethedrinker: Hmm, don't know. Maybe.
21:00:46 <lethedrinker> hmm.. actually i think i saw it on pl/pgsql recipes..
21:00:47 <lethedrinker> * lethedrinker digs 
21:01:54 <yzzyx> rbm: You could make your money go further by either buying secondhand, via ebay or via a systems upgrade engineer.
21:02:11 <rzolf> rbm: what type of system are you looking to purchase?
21:02:26 <yzzyx> rbm: the latter tend to get the eqpt free, so could be surprisingly cheap.
21:02:44 <rbm> lethedrinker: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=CELKO+group:comp.databases.postgresql.sql&hl=en&selm=c0d87ec0.0110311714.3c2d0de8%40posting.google.com&rnum=8
21:02:50 <rbm> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=CELKO+group:comp.databases.postgresql.sql&hl=en&selm=c0d87ec0.0110311714.3c2d0de8%40posting.google.com&rnum=8
21:02:50 <oacs-chump> H: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=CELKO+group:comp.databases.postgresql.sql&hl=en&selm=c0d87ec0.0110311714.3c2d0de8%40posting.google.com&rnum=8 from rbm
21:03:08 <rbm> H:| The Adjacency List model explained by Joe Celko
21:03:08 <oacs-chump> titled item H
21:03:33 <rbm> rzolf: A pretty decent machine. Mine is pretty slow.
21:03:42 <lethedrinker> rbm: cool, thanks. i think i saw that earlier... but looking through the acs-core/ postgresql.sql utils. i was hoping to just reuse stuff thats already been written. 
21:03:42 <rzolf> what do you run? linux?
21:03:46 <rzolf> mac OS?
21:03:48 <rzolf> NT?
21:03:48 <lethedrinker> * lethedrinker heads out to a meeting 
21:03:48 <rzolf> etc.
21:03:49 <rbm> yzzyx: I don't know what a systems upgrade engineer is.
21:04:13 <rbm> rzolf: The box I want to build will be run Linux 98% of the time. Win2k the rest.
21:05:40 <yzzyx> These chaps are contracted to maintain and upgrade a company's eqpt.
21:06:15 <rbm> yzzyx: And how do I find one of these 'engineers'?
21:06:19 <yzzyx> I've had the good fortune to make an acquaintance out of an IBM engineer in the UK.
21:06:35 <yzzyx> rbm: Ask around?
21:06:53 <rbm> I guess I could look at ebay
21:07:04 <rbm> But buying at ebay is more like gambling to me.
21:07:11 <yzzyx> rbm: Some people here may have the contacts in the US.
21:07:33 <rzolf> roberto: ask docwolf, he knows a lot about PC construction
21:07:40 <rzolf> and where to buy.
21:07:51 <yzzyx> rbm: I agree, but if you limit yourself to people near you, you can check the eqpt first.
21:08:39 <yzzyx> rbm: In the UK, the comp fairs are good for new stuff.
21:22:09 <rzolf> enjoy.
21:22:19 <rzolf> rzolf has quit ("rzolf has no reason")
21:43:43 <davb> davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
21:56:57 <yzzyx> yzzyx has left #openacs
21:57:39 <docwolf> docwolf (~docwolf@adsl-34-53-191.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs
22:39:02 <denshi> denshi (~chatzilla@adsl-216-62-223-193.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs
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22:56:41 <davb> lethedrinker: here is one post about using between instead of like
22:56:43 <davb> http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00043D&topic_id=14&topic=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Testing
22:56:43 <oacs-chump> I: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00043D&topic_id=14&topic=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Testing from davb
23:02:48 <lethedrinker> davb: thanks!!
23:03:26 <davb> np.
23:03:44 <davb> I am looking to see if I can find examples of various queries.
23:04:03 <davb> but I don't quite understand what they do yet :)
23:04:57 <rbm> davb: If you find examples, I'll add to the docs
23:05:13 <davb> ok. I will let you know.