00:00:02 ! 00:00:31 hands down, the better -documentor- is the history major 00:00:37 Do historians study algorithms? 00:00:48 no, but they do study writing :) 00:01:24 OK, does studying English mean that you will grasp Swahili faster? 00:01:41 Different grammar, syntax... 00:01:51 yzzyx: yes! because you will necessarily be studying parts of speech 00:01:54 World views. 00:02:26 of course, if you study the grammars together, even faster 00:02:52 I'm trying to say that in learning a particular lang, does one see the meta-lang? 00:03:08 depends on how you learn 00:03:14 I'd think you'd need to study archeo-langs. 00:03:32 you mean like latin? 00:04:15 Well, from grunts to Sanskrit to Indo-European to ... to Modern. 00:04:45 but the thing I'm trying to emphasize, is that all the skills of writing natural languages (organization, syntax, grammar, spelling, representing ideas) transfers to programming 00:05:14 As I recall, there are languages which don't have a grammar or organisation that we'd recognise. 00:05:21 yzzyx: yes, agreed. that would help. 00:05:35 yes, including pre-english 00:05:45 subject verb object forms don't apply to certain worldviews. 00:06:28 *Going out on a limb* - Chinese? 00:06:43 I don't know chinese :) 00:06:58 Domo Arigato (Japanese) 00:07:04 Thank you. 00:07:07 maybe one or two words at most :) 00:08:01 I know more Japanese, and nowhere near enough to form or recognize a sentence 00:08:46 Going back, in general I'd say that it would be easier to teach a mathematician to comment and document than it would be to teach a historian to program. 00:09:18 What are you studying/have studied? 00:09:19 again, depends on how the mathemitician and the historian studied 00:09:34 In general! :) 00:09:36 music theory, programming mostly 00:10:12 Ah, do you play an instrument? Any particular styles? 00:10:37 yzzyx: but it would be hard to teach the mathematician to organize :) 00:10:52 yes, I play elec bass 00:11:00 mostly jazz right now 00:11:17 I did a little theory at the behest of a flamenco/blues guitarist, not to mention being hassled by classical piano teachers. 00:11:26 heh 00:11:37 I used to have a Warwick at one point. 00:11:45 nice basses 00:11:52 very nice in fact 00:12:06 brb 00:12:11 ol 00:12:15 ok 00:14:52 [GlobalNotice] Hi all. We've just shut down a main rotation server provided by one of our corporate sponsors, which was experiencing severe packet loss. Please bear with us. 00:16:58 I went and visited a fusion session player last year, and got a lot to study from him 00:17:36 Okay. My car broke down for the last time. I'm going to replace it with a newer one. 00:17:40 Any suggestions on reliable not-so-new cars (~96) with good mpg and reasonably low maintenance costs? 00:17:50 I sold all my instruments and amps. 00:18:07 wow^2 00:18:29 I think jerry asher had comments about the cheapest way to buy used cars. 00:18:33 rbm: VW maybe? 00:18:40 On OpenACS. 00:18:55 jim: In Brazil, nothing beats VW's. But how are they here in the U.S.? 00:19:11 Don't be a polluter. Get a recumbent bike. 00:19:55 Saabs have a good reputation. 00:20:02 depends on if you can easily get parts (in less than 6 months) 00:21:19 yzzyx: I have to be able to get parts easily. 00:21:39 jim: That's the problem. DOes VW make cars in the U.S. or are they all imports? 00:21:50 VM is the biggest car manufacturer in Brazil (in fact, they were the first ones) 00:21:54 Er. I'm not in the U.S. 00:22:09 umm, not sure... they used to be much more popular 00:22:35 if you want -safe-, volvo is the way to go... but it's expensive to maintain 00:23:02 Whatever you do, don't get a Mini. 00:23:42 Very small crumple zone, if at all. 00:24:05 yzzyx: Oh, sorry. 00:24:35 jim: Yes, I heard about the volvos and I'd love the extra safety, but can't afford it. 00:24:38 rbm: no worries. 00:25:09 rbm: I'd recommend that you look at jerry's post. 00:25:11 Oh, you're in the UK. 00:25:23 That's nice. That's one part of Europe I'd like to visit. 00:26:02 It's no better than the rest, I'd say. Maybe even worse. 00:27:04 Certain cities are very cosmopolitan than other European ones. 00:27:12 s/very/more 00:27:43 * jim is -not- happy with his provider 00:27:50 blocked my ports 00:27:58 Why? 00:28:02 dunno 00:28:26 looks like 25 is open, 80 closed, 9000 closed... 00:28:35 Are they contravening T&Cs? 00:28:54 I don't understand the question :) 00:29:30 Are they contravening terms and conditions. 00:29:59 dunno 00:30:19 rbm: jerry's comment on used cars: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0003xI&topic_id=OpenACS&topic=11 00:30:36 as far as I'm concerned, internet access is internet access,,, if they want to block me, they are not providing me access. 00:30:38 yzzyx: Just found it. 00:30:50 :) 00:30:52 jim: attbi? 00:30:57 yep 00:31:12 hmmm, didn't know they were blocking 00:31:16 jim: Squeeze them. 00:31:34 jim: You don't have any firewall foo going on? 00:31:43 I'm strongly considering jumpping, I don't like the way they do business 00:32:01 rbm: yes, I built it all myself 00:33:54 wow, looks like they're blocking ALL my high ports 00:33:59 jim: What's your URL? 00:34:12 12-233-225-152.client.attbi.com 00:34:14 and 00:34:17 jim: There's no need for them to do tha. 00:34:19 12-233-225-152.client.attbi.com:9000 00:35:36 oh, sheesh, looks like it's not them 00:35:55 I know what it is 00:36:10 I was trying to back up, and I shut the service down 00:36:19 :) 00:36:20 stupid me... 00:36:58 A learning experience :) 00:43:31 in a minute or so, they should be up 00:43:49 (them not blocking 25 really confused me...) 00:44:13 Will retry. 00:44:31 one sec, I'll let ya know :) 00:44:42 yes it's there 00:44:46 it's up 00:47:02 rbm: ayhs? 00:52:01 jim: How did you come across [O]ACS? 00:52:05 * jim hacks up an all-keys dir 00:52:23 yzzyx: guy named John Cassady turned me on to it 00:52:39 And SICP? 00:52:54 taught at the school I went to 00:53:27 so I knew about that years before 00:53:50 Were/are you studying music w/ comp sci? 00:54:20 not in an interdisciplinary manner 00:54:40 however, I might take a class in the fall involving ProTools 00:55:25 So I'll ask you about Ex1.19 in six months *grin* 00:56:29 well, I think I can figure it out much before :) 00:57:08 OK. How about Ex1.13? 00:57:33 part of it involves (T (T (T ... (T listoftwofibs) ... ))) 00:58:40 the T takes a list of two fibs, (a b) 00:58:49 I've got the fib-transform squarer but the devil is in the details. 00:59:11 yes 00:59:34 pay attention to what the devil is in :)/ 01:00:15 that is the most general (and perhaps not directly helpful) advice I can give 01:00:48 you using mit scheme? 01:00:52 i.e. Why isn't a <- bq+aq( -ap )? 01:01:13 Yes, I am. 01:01:36 ok, that debugger thing can be of help 01:02:03 jim: I can get to it now 01:02:12 Yes, it's useful. Infinite loops! 01:02:41 Stress testing hware. 01:03:28 yzzyx: it's the -sum- of something 01:04:44 I can see that it works by brute force, but I don't understand the elegance. Unfortunately I tend to stop when I hit problems like this. 01:05:08 jim: congrats. 01:05:47 rbm: yes, /me congrats self for discovering need to start the web server :) 01:06:04 !applause 01:06:29 rbm: pls look it over, can you see ways to use db? (no db stuff at all right now) 01:11:51 jim: Sorry to pester you. Only two more Qs. 01:11:55 jim: 1.23: Can't explain the fact that the observed ratio of the speeds of the two algorithms isn't 2. Memory overhead and garbage collection? 01:15:36 Jim: How is XFS? 01:16:13 performance wise? 01:16:47 pretty good; I can't judge at the moment; last week located bad-ram as the cause of a lot of stability problems... waiting awhile to see how things go 01:18:11 I've given up on reiserfs and gone to ext3 for my Oracle machine. 01:19:23 Jim: Perhaps I could pose my SICP questions and give you or others time to reply. 01:19:51 I wish I had access to the MIT bboard. 01:20:14 I'm running reiser on the web server machine (which is running pg and two aolservers atm) 01:20:39 Is XFS on your wkstation? 01:20:44 yes 01:20:58 which was where the ram problem was 01:21:06 What version(s) of AOLServer are you running? 01:21:42 AOLserver/3.4.2 01:22:09 I don't think I'm running any ad patches; can't remember now 01:23:56 I'm using the stock 3.3 + ad13 w/ SSL & VAT. I have to get some disks replaced so that I can play w/ the OACS. 01:25:21 I hear that Suns are 10 cents on the dollar in the US. Some nice servers are floating about in the dotcom aftermath. 01:26:26 Last SICP question *hooray*: 1.24: Can't explain discrepancy in Fermat test comparing primes near 1,000,000 01:26:26 to compare with the time needed to test primes near 1000. Again, could this 01:26:26 be due to memory overhead and garbage collection? 01:28:51 well, they gave you a small problem with Fermat... 01:29:27 i.e., they told you it was reliable most of the time except for a rare occurance; that might explain it 01:29:40 or might help 01:30:11 hmmm. 01:32:34 So it's picking some false +ves? 01:33:14 Is that the only reason? 01:39:00 Out of interest, did you follow the text exclusively or did you use the course notes in addition? 01:39:28 I'm using the aduni videos 01:39:39 and their problem sets 01:39:46 Did you d/l them? 01:40:01 Or buy the HDD? 01:40:02 nono, bought an HD from aduni 01:40:30 How good are they? 01:40:35 very. 01:40:41 Holly is excellent. 01:41:04 Right, I'm getting them first thing on Tuesday. 01:41:28 cool :) someone have it out your way? 01:41:33 Hopefully, I might even teach SICP here. 01:41:45 barstool (~chatzilla@talli.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 01:41:58 I don't know. I thought I'd have it shipped to me. 01:42:23 I will ask here tomorrow. 01:42:37 he took his time in getting it to me... meanwhile, I streamed them from aduni... 01:42:47 much better to have them local 01:43:10 Definitely. Then make numerous bkups. 01:43:29 You do have a bkup don't you? 01:43:36 of course 01:43:49 the drive itself is elsewhere; I use a copy of it 01:43:56 What was the make of the drive? 01:44:00 maxtor 01:44:07 but you can supply the drive 01:44:27 perhaps by ordering it, and having it shipped to them 01:44:27 OK, I thought it may be WD. Those need bkups from my experience. 01:44:52 yeah, I bought a WD 100g, and crossing my fingers :) 01:44:54 Maybe. I think I have a contact who may be returning to the UK soon. 01:45:34 if he/she is on the east coast now, they could try to meet Chris 01:45:41 I now use SCSI exclusively. Well, SCA too, but they're the same. 01:45:58 if west/SF bay area, I might be able to help 01:46:29 He's a friend of a friend who works for IBM. 01:46:43 I'll find out his location. 01:46:46 in Calif? Silli Valley? 01:47:15 I have no idea where he is now. He was supposed to be back in the UK two months ago. 01:47:22 oh... 01:47:36 With some Xeon mobos for me *sob* 01:50:30 Interesting, Flash is to get a nice XML tool to aid accessibility. 01:51:23 So the days of separate Flash/non-Flash sites is around the corner. 01:57:15 Well, I'd better get some sleep. Thanks for your help Jim. 01:57:53 yzzyx has left #openacs 02:44:00 davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 03:00:59 hello 03:03:19 * davb starts working on jim's cdrs 03:05:25 cool :) 03:05:54 i need a faster machine. mkisofs slows it way down 03:10:06 hey losers 03:10:10 barstool is now known as talli 03:10:14 hiya tali 03:10:24 what's up this eve? 03:10:28 * jim notes that some losers sit on barstools ;) 03:10:30 work out the tclsoap stuff, davb ? 03:10:35 touche 03:10:43 wow, cdrecord is killing my machine too. 03:10:44 ack. 03:10:50 cdrs are not 16x speed. 03:10:51 killing? 03:10:57 davb: you gotta learn C!!! 03:11:00 its going really slow 03:11:06 talli: i will work it out. 03:11:10 the tclsoap that is. 03:11:15 that way you can write new modules for AOLserver rather than play with tcl crap 03:11:24 it "works" the package require hack breaks aolserver for tcl pages. 03:11:35 I fixed nsexpat. 03:11:40 and I am looking at nsxml2 03:11:44 what else... 03:12:00 oh yeah that new idea for the email search and index thingy 03:13:06 davb: you'd be a god with C!!! 03:14:27 talli has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:15:54 talli (~chatzilla@talli.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 03:16:09 davb: if vinod can learn C, so can you. 03:16:15 i mean, he's just a friggin' MD!!! 03:16:23 true. 03:16:31 talli has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:16:47 doing home-study 03:16:52 i saw in the log. 03:16:55 I have to get going. 03:16:58 going with the book qs 03:17:05 ok 03:17:07 I still think the math with help me. 03:17:46 get my brain in a better mode. during the sussman lectures he is talking about representing math functions in scheme and my brain gets all stuck on the math part. 03:17:57 thats in like the first 10 mins or so :) 03:20:45 the next thing he does is show how you can take a scheme func that takes N things and returns 1 and swap it for another similar one 03:20:56 nifty 03:20:56 well, guessing ;) 03:21:16 like, + and - 03:24:28 * davb installs Zoe 03:25:39 darn, doesn't seem to work in linux 03:35:16 S: uses lucene to index the messages 03:35:18 added comment S4 03:35:29 S: written in Java, works best on OS X 03:35:29 added comment S5 03:39:35 more tomorrow 03:44:22 hazmat has quit (Remote closed the connection) 06:45:10 yzzyx (~saras@213-48-145-49.cro.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #openacs 06:48:57 yzzyx has left #openacs 07:14:09 docwolf has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 07:30:20 <[oTc]Change> [oTc]Change (manuelssf@d253-192.emerson3.ucdavis.edu) has joined #openacs 07:30:32 <[oTc]Change> !list 07:30:46 <[oTc]Change> list! 07:31:33 <[oTc]Change> [oTc]Change has quit (Client Quit) 11:33:18 til has quit (zahn.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 11:33:19 shagster has quit (zahn.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 11:33:19 djg has quit (zahn.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 11:33:19 oacs-chump has quit (zahn.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 11:33:20 Fridayphylax has quit (zahn.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 11:33:20 rbm has quit (zahn.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 11:33:36 til (~tils@62.116.19.11) has joined #openacs 11:33:36 oacs-chump (~oacs-chum@alb-24-58-160-28.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 11:33:36 rbm (rmello@fslc.usu.edu) has joined #openacs 11:33:36 Fridayphylax (proxy@ool-18baa8de.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #openacs 11:33:36 shagster (~mkovach@web1.alal.com) has joined #openacs 11:33:37 djg (djg@fiesta.cs.tu-berlin.de) has joined #openacs 11:34:34 [#openacs] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog 12:39:47 denshi (toddg@linux128.ma.utexas.edu) has joined #openacs 13:27:55 denshi has quit ("denshi has no reason") 13:31:45 Fridayphylax is now known as Weekendophylax 13:31:49 Hey dave 14:20:58 hi 14:39:01 argh 14:39:07 now the 4th cd is bad too. 14:39:27 rbm: can you test your SICP 4A disc? 14:39:47 yzzyx (~saras@213-48-248-151.cro.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #openacs 14:41:33 hi yzzyx 14:41:51 Hello 14:41:51 niihau, yzzyx 14:42:29 paje: Are you from Hawaii 14:42:29 OK, yzzyx. 14:47:08 yzzyx has left #openacs 14:57:39 dave 14:57:50 waky waky 14:58:10 hiya 14:58:16 sup d00d 14:58:24 You have sftp? 14:58:28 * davb looks 14:58:38 yes 14:58:43 ok 14:59:30 pretty fast 200k/s or more. 14:59:43 ok 14:59:46 have fun then 14:59:52 I can send at a lot more :) 15:09:39 vinod (~vinod@207-172-97-140.s648.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs 15:12:02 hi vinod 15:12:30 werd up V-man 15:12:48 vinod: can you check the SICP CD #4a for me? mine seems to be not working. 15:13:46 hey guys 15:13:53 davb: sure - gimme a sec 15:14:07 * vinod wades through his disorganized pile of cds 15:14:27 argh 15:14:34 i made a copy, but it crashes realplayer. 15:14:51 What's the best way to keep long cat5 cables organized? 15:17:00 talli (~chatzilla@talli.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 15:21:36 davb: it just says "buffering" and then eats up CPU. if i fast-forward, it segfaults 15:27:52 Dave, how's the download coming along? 15:33:33 oh excellent 15:33:39 Weekendophylax: still going. 15:33:42 no status bar. 15:33:42 lol 15:33:47 ok 15:33:51 well 15:36:18 vinod: I have learned my lesson. no more cheap cdrs 15:36:52 Dave 15:36:59 I only buy Imation, Sony and TDK 15:37:13 davb: heh 15:37:17 no big deal 15:37:23 Stay away from Generic and the other one that starts with an M 15:37:26 the ones I used were unbranded, really cheap ones. 15:37:31 Memorex 15:37:31 it'll be a while before i get to lecture 4a anyway :-) 15:37:36 heh 15:37:39 yup, memorex = crap 15:37:46 spend an extra 2$ for Imation 15:37:47 Kodak, TDK are good. they own factories. 15:38:03 i just briefly tested the other lectures and they all work except 4a and 5b 15:38:25 thanks. that is good. I am making extra copies onto 100 year Kodaks now :) 15:39:03 100 years should be enough for me to get through em all 15:39:18 I wonder if there is a way to fix or edit a .ram file 15:39:28 I think that 100 years is only theoretical in perfect conditions 15:39:38 I doubt it would last a month in direct sunlight 15:40:05 that's ok - we programmers work in dungeon conditions 15:40:21 i know 15:43:13 no these have a layer on top. if you put it upside down, it will not last long. 15:43:43 but I am sure they are exaggerating :) 15:47:50 anyone ever play Citizen Kabuto? 15:49:54 nope 15:50:17 ooom 15:50:29 hey rbm 15:50:33 hey vinod 15:50:49 sent your pen-pointer in the mail today - should be there in a week or so 15:50:55 davb is burning the aD lectures again? 15:51:07 vinod: Thanks a bunch. I love that little pen :) 15:51:22 rbm: np - i understand why - it's pretty cool 15:51:37 sighs. I've been getting more and more spam lately. 15:52:04 I need to add some procmail rules that forward any mail not addressed to me to a "spam" file 15:52:31 Ack! I'm still behind oacs mail 15:52:50 Looks like I'll be even more behind with finals week ahead :( 15:53:17 3heh 15:53:20 Do your work! 15:53:26 * Weekendophylax sets mode +b rbm 15:55:15 what's +b? 15:56:24 ban 15:56:48 rbm: shhhhhhh :) 15:58:05 vinod: i think the linux realplayer sucks. 15:58:18 I am playing 4A all the way through on a windows machine to see it it will work. 15:58:57 davb: ahhh - i was wondering if that might be it, too 15:59:08 i can check on the mac side, later today 15:59:43 cool. thanks 15:59:45 davb: Are you burning the same set of lectures you burned for me? 15:59:52 rbm: yes 15:59:54 I read that jim has the whole HD with everything. 16:00:05 that has everything except these :) 16:00:14 I made a goal of going through those lectures this summer 16:00:19 I am amking them for jim 16:00:45 ah, okay. 16:01:56 rbm: can you test 4A? 16:04:42 davb: Probably. Let me find the CD 16:08:30 works here 16:09:19 can you fast forward towards the end? 16:10:14 how far? 16:10:57 any random amount should be fine. 16:11:44 thanks, btw :) 16:11:52 Dave, still downloading? 16:12:04 Weekendophylax: yeah. man, my connection is slow. 16:12:06 sorry 16:12:14 davb: It works fine all the way to the end 16:12:18 cool. 16:12:53 my copy I made t the windows machine, seems to work. I will make another copy for vinod if he needs it. 16:13:08 I don't care 16:15:49 ok :) 16:20:14 * rbm discovers igal and thinks that this will be better than using photo-album 16:20:45 http://www.stanford.edu/~epop/igal/ 16:20:46 A: http://www.stanford.edu/~epop/igal/ from rbm 16:20:58 A:|igal - Image Gallery Generator 16:20:58 titled item A 16:34:38 * rbm runs Mozilla 1.0rc1 16:53:40 Dave? 16:53:40