IRC log of openacs on 2002-04-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:01:23 [vinod]

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00:39:51 [rzolf]

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00:43:37 [rzolf]

waht.

00:43:38 [rzolf]

what.

00:44:07 [talli]

hey rzolf

00:44:29 [vinod]

vinod (~vinod@216-164-247-119.s2849.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs

00:44:33 [rzolf]

what's going on.

00:44:34 [talli]

paje, seen davb ?

00:44:34 [paje]

davb was last seen on #openacs 53 minutes and 23 seconds ago, saying: sf->oracle that is [Thu Apr 25 17:51:51 2002]

00:44:39 [talli]

ah, ok

00:44:42 [talli]

paje, seen denshi ?

00:44:43 [paje]

denshi was last seen on #openacs 31 minutes and 48 seconds ago, saying: # is it wrong to spend more on scotch than you do on your car? [Thu Apr 25 18:13:35 2002]

00:44:49 [talli]

hey vinod

00:44:52 [rzolf]

haha. what on earth.

00:44:56 [vinod]

hey talli

00:45:03 [vinod]

howdy rzolf

00:45:08 [rzolf]

hello vinod.

00:45:34 [rzolf]

what did you expect.

00:46:00 [vinod]

talli: sorry to have missed out on that. had to make some phone calls

00:46:30 [davb]

hi

00:46:31 [paje]

hey, davb

00:46:44 [rzolf]

enterprise software...the most interesting part about it...is "money"

00:47:09 [davb]

denshi: thats the turn them upside down until all the money falls out model

00:48:32 [rzolf]

is it really competing. if nobody is making money?

00:48:34 [rzolf]

oops.

00:48:42 [davb]

oh, good point.

00:48:49 [rzolf]

sorry. :-(

00:48:52 [talli]

rzolf: exacto

00:49:30 [rzolf]

i'm trying to get up the nerve to drive real fast through miami, then slam into a concrete wall...like in an episode of miami vice that i once saw.

00:49:41 [rzolf]

however. I drive a ford escort wagon.

00:49:53 [talli]

rzolf: are things really getting that slow down there?

00:50:03 [rzolf]

no, the doc.project is great.

00:50:13 [talli]

i mean, announcing your suicide in a techie IRC channel???

00:50:16 [rzolf]

however i just read that a skateboard friend of mine makes $297,000 a year.

00:50:22 [talli]

holy christ

00:50:24 [rzolf]

skateboarding.

00:50:29 [rzolf]

and he's not even one of the good ones.

00:50:43 [rzolf]

and the fat guy that photographs him. makes over $100 grand.

00:50:46 [davb]

excellent. my 3 year old wants to learn to skateboard. I am all set.

00:50:48 [talli]

my friend's husband is the editor of SLAP

00:50:59 [rzolf]

thanks for convincing me to give up skateboarding and go to college, dad.

00:51:05 [vinod]

haha

00:51:15 [talli]

they have all sorts of 25 yo millionaire friends who only skateboard

00:51:19 [rzolf]

yeah

00:51:20 [talli]

and "deisgn skate clothes"

00:51:36 [vinod]

maybe we should start financing skateboarding lessons for davb's kid

00:51:48 [rzolf]

see. i thought those guys were making like... $80K a year, and "living large" because previously they were making $800 a year.

00:51:49 [talli]

invest in little davb

00:52:00 [rzolf]

i didn't realize that I was an order of magnitude off.

00:52:03 [talli]

do they "keep it real" like vinod?

00:52:36 [vinod]

* vinod keeps it integer

00:52:49 [talli]

rzolf: don't worry. how long can you skate for? until you're 30 and your marrow has dried out?

00:53:06 [talli]

you can code *forever*

00:53:13 [talli]

is that what you wanted to hear?

00:53:15 [rzolf]

ahah.

00:53:42 [rzolf]

see i think my ford escort is so bad even if I fall asleep in it in the garage, nothing is going to happen.

00:53:57 [rzolf]

i'll wake up....the server will be paging me.

00:54:05 [talli]

that's because geckos absorb carbon monoxide

00:54:25 [davb]

man, they are putting everything into that browser

00:54:30 [talli]

haha

00:54:32 [vinod]

haha

00:54:34 [rzolf]

erf.

00:55:01 [talli]

i think rzolf was offended by your nerd joke, davb

00:55:01 [rzolf]

do you want to hear about my 2nd cousin.

00:55:17 [rzolf]

i better use the "#" operator for this one.

00:55:23 [talli]

rzolf: i think you'll have to go elsewhere to find sympathy for your plight

00:55:30 [rzolf]

yeah.

00:55:37 [davb]

you think I'm kidding. http://www.mozdev.org/CO

00:55:42 [rzolf]

but it is an interesting story.

00:55:44 [talli]

or at least if you don't like bad geek puns

00:56:05 [rzolf]

interesting to learn about how people make a lot of money doing completely bizarre thigns.

00:56:25 [talli]

how's your energy drink coming along?

00:56:32 [rzolf]

i better get back on that.

00:56:39 [talli]

gitdown marketing + wolf bioscience R&D can't lose

00:56:43 [rzolf]

haha.

00:56:47 [rzolf]

good point.

00:57:16 [rzolf]

see, life was looking up

00:57:22 [davb]

hey. I can almost debug the package require bug in aolserver with tclpro.

00:57:32 [rzolf]

i had a focus for my LLC

00:57:34 [davb]

but I haven't figured out how to activate tcl pages.

00:57:37 [talli]

*almost*?

00:57:54 [rzolf]

i was all set to improve my cashflow to decent levels.

00:57:57 [talli]

davb: any chance you're documenting this stuff? it would be great to add to teh OACS docs...

00:57:58 [rzolf]

through rewarding work.

00:58:12 [davb]

talli: never thought of that :)

00:58:13 [talli]

rzolf: what kind of stuff?

00:58:15 [rzolf]

then i find out this guy i know made $300K skateboarding.

00:58:29 [talli]

how much does Tony Hawk make?

00:58:45 [rzolf]

$40M a year.

00:58:53 [talli]

christ almighty

00:59:01 [talli]

people really like that playstation game, huh?

00:59:02 [davb]

you sure?

00:59:04 [davb]

ah

00:59:15 [rzolf]

yes i have many contacts in the skateboard industry.

00:59:20 [vinod]

med school was a waste of time

00:59:31 [davb]

ack.

00:59:39 [talli]

rzolf: ever hear of Mark Whiteley?

00:59:44 [talli]

he's the editor of SLAP

00:59:46 [talli]

or Slap

00:59:47 [rzolf]

i keep thinking med school would be fun. but i think if I had $40M, i wouldn't care anymore.

00:59:53 [talli]

however you spell it

00:59:58 [vinod]

haha

00:59:59 [rzolf]

no i don't know who that is.

01:00:03 [talli]

that's $40M per annum

01:00:25 [talli]

take that, Albert Schweitzer

01:00:33 [rzolf]

SLAP is ok.

01:00:37 [rzolf]

i knew some girl that worked there.

01:00:56 [talli]

my friend keeps telling me that they try to have "real" articles in there

01:01:28 [talli]

i never read it, but i have a feeling that there is no overlap between those that read the NY Review of Books and those that know what an olley is

01:01:39 [rzolf]

skateboard magazines are definitely a money making venture...because typically the ads are better than the actual content...so there is no problem just filling every other page with an ad.

01:01:55 [Thursdayphylax]

w

01:01:55 [rzolf]

i read the NY review of books.

01:01:57 [Thursdayphylax]

ack

01:02:01 [Thursdayphylax]

syn

01:02:08 [Thursdayphylax]

actually

01:02:08 [paje]

i think actually is there something to automate this a bit more?

01:02:11 [Thursdayphylax]

I got it backwards

01:02:23 [Thursdayphylax]

syn-->syn ack --> ack

01:02:29 [Thursdayphylax]

* Thursdayphylax is minimalizing

01:02:46 [talli]

rzolf: does that mean you take issue with my denigration of SLAP?

01:02:53 [davb]

* davb searches the aolserver list of tclpro hints

01:02:59 [rzolf]

no, i'm just saying you can't draw that venn diagram.

01:03:06 [talli]

not that i am denigrating it

01:03:16 [rzolf]

slap should be denigrated.

01:03:48 [rzolf]

haha.

01:03:51 [rzolf]

who cares.

01:04:16 [Thursdayphylax]

it changes a lot

01:04:17 [Thursdayphylax]

that's why

01:04:23 [davb]

yep

01:04:25 [talli]

btw, davb i tried doing a search on your log and it crapped out

01:04:55 [davb]

really? error message.

01:05:18 [talli]

yup

01:06:18 [davb]

crap. xmms doesn't like my ide-scsi cdrom

01:06:30 [rzolf]

also.

01:06:47 [rzolf]

what's the deal with corporations donating to people who are already rich.

01:07:03 [Thursdayphylax]

* Thursdayphylax is throwing out his stuff

01:07:29 [rzolf]

for instance, learning that some scrub i knew 5 years ago is now making $297,000 as a skateboarder was a kick in the stomach.

01:07:52 [rzolf]

the kick in the nuts came, when I learned that apple gave him $12K worth of hardware.

01:08:19 [talli]

holy

01:08:23 [talli]

is he a good skater?

01:08:30 [rzolf]

yeah he's real good.

01:08:50 [rzolf]

but the thing is. he's kind of obscure. if he's making that much...i can't imagine what the well known guys are making.

01:09:13 [talli]

were you ever sponsored or a professional?

01:09:16 [rzolf]

or why apple would give pro skateboarders a cinema display

01:09:17 [rzolf]

no.

01:09:34 [rzolf]

but a bunch of my friends are now pro.

01:09:45 [talli]

i must admit i don't quite understand the phenomena of pro-skateboarding

01:09:45 [rzolf]

but they aren't living large pro.

01:10:01 [talli]

who pays these people? for what? who is buying the shit?

01:10:07 [rzolf]

shoe sponsorships.

01:10:15 [talli]

how are they making this much money, though?

01:10:20 [rzolf]

skateboarders used to make zilch

01:10:25 [talli]

how is this such a big industry?

01:10:30 [rzolf]

but then they realized the shoe sponsorship thing.

01:10:37 [rzolf]

because not just skateboarders wear sneakers.

01:10:42 [talli]

is it all eXtreme games shit?

01:11:08 [rzolf]

its mostly from shoes.

01:11:08 [talli]

yes, but who else seeks out shoes worn by skinny white kids?

01:11:21 [rzolf]

other skinny white kids.

01:11:47 [talli]

i see

01:11:51 [rzolf]

you'd be suprised.

01:11:59 [talli]

do other skinny white kids buy that many shoes?

01:12:04 [rzolf]

yeah.

01:12:15 [rzolf]

if you actually skateboard, you go through a pair of shoes a month.

01:12:23 [vinod]

skinny brown kids too - my nephew's a tony hawke nut

01:12:42 [rzolf]

if you don't skateboard, you still buy at least 2 pairs of sneakers a year

01:12:46 [rzolf]

just to keep in style.

01:13:22 [rzolf]

its just like basketball shoes.

01:13:38 [rzolf]

i would even posit that skateboarding is better off than most other sports

01:13:48 [rzolf]

because anyone can get a skateboard, and poke around on it.

01:14:04 [talli]

i can't

01:14:05 [rzolf]

whereas you have to be totally athletic and 7 feet tall to excel at basketball.

01:14:07 [talli]

i fall off the shit

01:14:23 [rzolf]

skateboarding is like bicycling. it still can be fun even if you really suck.

01:14:44 [rzolf]

most competitive sports are not fun at all unless you are winning.

01:15:08 [vinod]

or unless you don't care about winning :-)

01:15:12 [rzolf]

yeah.

01:15:30 [talli]

vinod: you mean like the Green Bay Packers?

01:15:32 [rzolf]

but they aren't geared towards that.

01:15:46 [rzolf]

like. if you suck at bball. your teammates are mad, and you are gonna get razzed.

01:15:49 [vinod]

talli: yeah

01:15:57 [rzolf]

if you suck at skateboarding, guys are like "just try it again, dood"

01:15:57 [vinod]

and just think how the niners must feel :-)

01:16:20 [rzolf]

anyeay.

01:16:22 [rzolf]

anyway.

01:16:29 [talli]

rzolf: and for some reason the chicks dig the skaters more

01:16:36 [talli]

which i always resented

01:16:44 [rzolf]

i need to find a way to make $297,000 this year, or else it is going to be hard to justify my existence.

01:16:59 [talli]

has docwolf heard that yet?

01:17:09 [vinod]

can you start a religion?

01:17:20 [rzolf]

talli, that is because you lived in california. where i grew up, I had a hard time avoiding being run over by some hockey player in a pickup truck.

01:17:31 [talli]

ah, that sucks.

01:17:38 [rzolf]

while his girlfriend spit tobacco at me as they drove off.

01:17:42 [talli]

haha

01:17:56 [talli]

why didn't you just prematurely pull her ripcord?

01:18:05 [rzolf]

skateboarders were about as cool as ... computer programmers.

01:18:40 [talli]

btw, the girl that i had a big crush on and who lives in MN apparently is shacked up with some tattooed 35 yo indy rock type who "restores antique furniture"

01:18:51 [rzolf]

whoa. oh man.

01:18:58 [rzolf]

that sounds totally minneapolis.

01:19:11 [rzolf]

my ex GF...

01:19:38 [rzolf]

her new boyfriend. makes ... custom eyeglass frames ... out of wood. :'-(

01:19:56 [talli]

nice. how "artistic and creative"

01:20:22 [rzolf]

i was thinking more "how gay." but i know that isn't proper to say outside of the 8th grade anymore.

01:20:29 [vinod]

i'd hate to get a splinter in my eye

01:20:37 [talli]

i wish we lived in 17th century northern europe and trade guilds were hip

01:20:52 [rzolf]

well, just move to minneapolis. they are still hip.

01:20:52 [vinod]

i'd like to have an aprentice

01:20:55 [talli]

then being a small artisan might be worth pursuing

01:21:25 [talli]

vinod: you can be my apprentice

01:21:25 [rzolf]

you just need. to start a "slowcore" band. with a hint of "post rock" and "country"

01:21:30 [rzolf]

move to uptown.

01:21:42 [rzolf]

wear goofy eyeglasses.

01:21:44 [talli]

by the way, what's "alt-country"

01:21:52 [talli]

wait, no, that's not the term

01:21:56 [talli]

"no depression"

01:22:01 [rzolf]

and work in a furniture store.

01:22:19 [rzolf]

claim your hobbies are "making paper" and "glass blowing"

01:22:26 [talli]

holy shit

01:22:30 [rzolf]

you'll get lots of confused chicks.

01:22:32 [davb]

* davb thouroughly dislikes debugging the debugger

01:22:41 [talli]

i know both a paper maker and a glass blower from MN

01:22:47 [talli]

christ almighty

01:22:50 [rzolf]

:'-(

01:22:55 [talli]

are there that many freaks there?

01:22:59 [rzolf]

yes!

01:23:00 [davb]

do they do anything productive there?

01:23:03 [rzolf]

no!

01:23:11 [rzolf]

3M is there.

01:23:17 [talli]

also, what about covering your arms with tattoos your ex-gf's brother designed?

01:23:19 [rzolf]

MN is a "lifestyle choice"

01:23:45 [talli]

also, don't forget buying a home at the age of 12

01:23:47 [rzolf]

the deal is. it is really cheap to live there, and it is like the #2 place in the world for "advertising firms" so there are TONS of washed up hipsters.

01:24:14 [rzolf]

it has to have the highest concentration of "Graphic Designers" out side of NYC.

01:24:23 [davb]

heh

01:24:33 [davb]

I guess I need to move there.

01:24:47 [talli]

davb: give up. you're a hacker

01:25:04 [rzolf]

davb: if you want to work as a graphic designer, it is an ideal place.

01:25:27 [davb]

every once in a while I read a whole bunch of web designy sites all day.

01:25:44 [jim]

davb: I like that idea

01:25:45 [rzolf]

infact i would speculate that one would have a much better life as a graphic designer there, than a programmer.

01:26:01 [talli]

davb: did you see that there's a CMS conference coming up?

01:26:12 [davb]

nope. where?

01:26:13 [jim]

conference?

01:26:19 [rzolf]

talli aren't there a lot of MN ppl in NYC?

01:26:22 [jim]

on -just- cms?

01:26:30 [rzolf]

when i was in brooklyn. everyone was from minnesota.

01:26:38 [talli]

rzolf: i don't know

01:26:41 [talli]

i tend to avoid people

01:26:50 [rzolf]

williamsburg was like. the mn expatriates choice.

01:26:57 [talli]

and the more people i meet from MN, the more i avoid tehm in particular

01:27:00 [rzolf]

ahah.

01:27:17 [rzolf]

jilted for too many antique suitcase collectors, i guess.

01:27:19 [talli]

i've met some that hang out in the east village

01:27:40 [jim]

the more people you meet from MN, the less people you meet from MN??

01:27:42 [davb]

problem is, I can't get my work to send me to any conferences.

01:27:43 [talli]

the east village is the most contrived hipster joint in the world, which is what i gather most MN kiddies are from

01:27:55 [rzolf]

i like the east village. :-/

01:28:04 [rzolf]

yon lives over there.

01:29:28 [talli]

when was the last time you were in the east village?

01:30:47 [rzolf]

when docwolf and i went to NYC

01:30:53 [rzolf]

about a month ago.

01:30:58 [talli]

ah

01:31:07 [talli]

well, i think the east village is pretty cheesy

01:31:15 [rzolf]

i do too, but that's fun.

01:31:24 [talli]

i guess

01:31:40 [rzolf]

posers are an interesting phenomenon

01:33:03 [rzolf]

that sounds ok to me.

01:33:06 [rzolf]

what is EV

01:33:16 [talli]

east village

01:33:16 [paje]

east village is the most contrived hipster joint in the world, which is what i gather most MN kiddies are from

01:33:19 [rzolf]

oh

01:33:55 [rzolf]

i mean. i guess that sucks? but. its unclear as to whether "keeping it real" is really that cool.

01:34:18 [rzolf]

like i would rather live where i have easy access to food and bookstores

01:34:33 [rzolf]

rather than...actually meeting the cast of welcome back kotter.

01:34:40 [vinod]

haha

01:35:20 [jim]

good luck meeting barbarino :)

01:35:27 [rzolf]

"i'm keeping it so real out here in flushing"

01:36:08 [rzolf]

"when the black kids aren't throwing rocks at me, the italian guy is trying to cell me a phone card. this is so cool."

01:36:24 [rzolf]

etc.

01:36:38 [davb]

ah, I kinda have tclpro working with tcl pages.

01:36:52 [rzolf]

er s/sell/cell

01:37:16 [jim]

is there a good tcl thing for printing tcl on a b/w postscript printer?

01:37:32 [jim]

(or, better, to a .ps file)

01:38:42 [Thursdayphylax]

heh

01:38:49 [Thursdayphylax]

I just threw out 5 bags of garbage

01:38:59 [vinod]

rzolf: how long were you in nyc?

01:39:02 [Thursdayphylax]

and I only cleaned out 3 drawers and the top of my desk

01:39:07 [rzolf]

about a year.

01:39:16 [vinod]

all in brooklyn?

01:39:19 [Thursdayphylax]

anyone want rubberbands?

01:39:21 [rzolf]

yes

01:39:35 [vinod]

i'm trying to decide where to live

01:39:46 [rzolf]

where will you be working

01:39:48 [vinod]

i'm gonna be working on the upper east side (90's)

01:40:03 [vinod]

so, i want to live along the 4,5,6

01:40:07 [rzolf]

you probably want to live on the east side then.

01:40:15 [rzolf]

are you working at cornell?

01:40:26 [vinod]

no - metropolitan hospital (ny medical college)

01:40:30 [rzolf]

ok.

01:40:36 [rzolf]

i worked at cornell. ;-)

01:40:49 [vinod]

cool - cornell medical?

01:40:52 [rzolf]

yeah.

01:41:07 [vinod]

that's around the 70's, right?

01:41:16 [rzolf]

70th and york.

01:41:20 [rzolf]

it kind of sucked.

01:41:30 [rzolf]

because getting from york. up to the subway

01:41:33 [rzolf]

was a 15 min walk.

01:41:45 [rzolf]

so it seemed easy to get to, but wasn't.

01:42:06 [vinod]

ahhh. the east side isn't so convenient, subway wise

01:42:15 [rzolf]

what's that area between the east village and midtown.

01:42:22 [rzolf]

you should live there. it is pleasant.

01:42:31 [vinod]

murray hill?

01:42:33 [rzolf]

yeah.

01:42:34 [Thursdayphylax]

anyone from around NY want a free mini-shelf system with 2 tape decks, a cd player and AM/FM tuner?

01:42:37 [Thursdayphylax]

Fully functionaly

01:42:40 [Thursdayphylax]

Functional rather

01:42:46 [rzolf]

murray hill is nice.

01:42:51 [rzolf]

or at least it was 4 years ago.

01:43:02 [vinod]

ok, i'll look there too

01:43:29 [rzolf]

its like. not too hip. and not too yuppie. but hip and yuppie enough to not be totally lame.

01:43:37 [vinod]

i'd been leaning towards living right near work, just to be convenient, but i haven't made a decision yet

01:43:38 [rzolf]

however there are some stealth ultra expensive places there

01:44:06 [rzolf]

yeah upper east side is ok.

01:44:20 [jim]

jim has quit (Remote closed the connection)

01:44:21 [rzolf]

there is a lot of housing up there

01:44:24 [vinod]

talli says it's frat-boy heaven

01:44:35 [vinod]

i think it was talli

01:44:45 [vinod]

in any case someone else i talked to agreed

01:44:46 [rzolf]

sure but the big secret is that both the frat boys and the hipsters are all just drunkards.

01:45:13 [vinod]

so i'd get along with them :-)

01:45:18 [rzolf]

so. unless you are a total bar fly, you won't be interacting with them so much.

01:45:27 [vinod]

haha

01:45:49 [rzolf]

however if you are a bar fly. you probably want to situate yourself near some bars that you like. ;-)

01:46:11 [vinod]

most of my friends in nyc live downtown, so i figure i'd be hanging out downtown on those rare moments i have free time

01:46:23 [rzolf]

that's the thing about nyc. it is like, the "most interesting place in the world" yet it seems like the main thing people do is go out and get really drunk.

01:47:22 [rzolf]

or at least, that's the "nightlife"

01:47:39 [rzolf]

my idea of nightlife is more along the lines of "get real hopped up on caffiene and IRC"

01:47:49 [vinod]

haha

01:47:55 [rzolf]

:'-(

01:48:32 [vinod]

that's mostly the extent of my nightlife

01:48:39 [vinod]

punctuated by the occasional oacs social

01:49:08 [rzolf]

yeah.

01:49:30 [rzolf]

i tried the "go to bars" thing for a couple years, but...i think overall...i met more women on IRC.

01:50:26 [vinod]

wow - i thought the m/f ratio on irc was infinity

01:50:38 [rzolf]

heh.

01:50:50 [rzolf]

well, my bar hopping was really fruitless.

01:54:03 [rzolf]

what are you doing these days vinod.

01:54:59 [vinod]

well. i'm going to start as an internal med doc on july 1st, so i'll probably move down in june

01:55:10 [rzolf]

sweet.

01:55:13 [vinod]

gonna be a doc full time (well 2d/wk teaching residents)

01:55:14 [vinod]

thanks

01:55:42 [rzolf]

will you start your writing career ala oliver sacks.

01:55:49 [vinod]

so, i'm furiously trying to get a ny medical license and credentials, while also hoping to land a nice apt

01:55:50 [rzolf]

and chill with the west village intelligensia

01:55:56 [vinod]

haha

01:56:03 [vinod]

you've obviously never seen my writing

01:56:16 [rzolf]

"the man who mistook his appendcitis for a hat"

01:56:21 [vinod]

lol

01:57:31 [vinod]

here's one: http://newyork.craigslist.org/apa/3648718.html

01:58:21 [rzolf]

oh. yon's building is nice, and they have tons of openings

01:58:23 [rzolf]

and it is new

01:58:38 [rzolf]

however, it is on like... 8th and avenue C. :-/

01:58:55 [vinod]

oh... i don't spose that's anywhere near the subway

01:59:27 [rzolf]

not too close. however neither is yorkville (but yorkville is way closer to your job)

01:59:40 [rzolf]

yorkville is way over by... "york"

01:59:58 [rzolf]

where york ~= "the river"

02:00:05 [vinod]

ahhh

02:00:20 [vinod]

so that's a hike to the subway

02:00:23 [rzolf]

yup

02:00:29 [davb]

argh

02:01:20 [rzolf]

its ok. there isn't much to do over there, but it is "normal"

02:01:43 [denshi]

whoa. $1750 for a 1BR. haven't seen that since Russian Hill, SF, 2000.

02:01:46 [rzolf]

like, normal people with families live over there.

02:02:03 [rzolf]

that actually seems pretty steep for the area, unless the apartment is really nice.

02:02:13 [vinod]

rzolf: that might be too normal for me

02:02:19 [rzolf]

ok

02:02:24 [vinod]

:-)

02:02:27 [rzolf]

;-)

02:03:08 [vinod]

my only price gauge is craigslist - haven't looked much more than that

02:03:19 [davb]

ack

02:03:32 [rzolf]

in SF, craigslist rents were always considered $500 or more above "normal"

02:03:39 [davb]

anyone wnat to hit F6 about a billion times so I can get to the end of this script and see wtf is happening?

02:03:46 [rzolf]

because landlords knew the computer people were suckers. ;-)

02:04:05 [vinod]

haha

02:04:08 [denshi]

rzolf: which is fine, considering that you could always go to an agent and go $1000 above market.

02:04:34 [denshi]

I nearly had to sue the one I messed with in SF.

02:04:57 [rzolf]

true. or you could go look at the craigslist apartment, and as you are walking there, see three other openings on the same street for 2/3 the price.

02:05:02 [rzolf]

this was 2001, however.

02:05:06 [rzolf]

after the bust.

02:05:12 [denshi]

yeah, that would be it. 2000 was different.

02:05:32 [talli]

vinod: why don't you move to chicago where all the drs are hot and sleep with each other, like on ER

02:05:40 [rzolf]

nowadays in SF craigslist is known to be a really bad place to find an apartment

02:06:00 [rzolf]

because you can just walk down the street and find better deals.

02:06:08 [denshi]

this is true.

02:06:21 [rzolf]

i dunno what the deal is with craigslist in SF.

02:06:23 [rzolf]

er

02:06:25 [rzolf]

NYC i meant

02:06:26 [vinod]

talli: docs are like that everywhere

02:06:38 [talli]

really?

02:06:42 [talli]

mayeb i should be a dr too

02:06:50 [vinod]

* vinod takes another swig of docwolf's reality-altering energy drink

02:07:06 [rzolf]

i'm thinking gitdown soda should contain yohimbe.

02:07:13 [rzolf]

that will be the secret ingredient.

02:07:31 [rzolf]

"ir eally like this soda...and that girl over there...i don't know why"

02:07:37 [vinod]

haha

02:07:46 [rzolf]

what does yohimbe do to women?

02:07:57 [rzolf]

make them have to pee really bad?

02:08:19 [rzolf]

give them a hairy chest?

02:08:33 [vinod]

no clue

02:08:41 [talli]

vinod: i think craigslist is not a good place to find apartments

02:08:52 [talli]

looking at their numbers it's kind of unreasonable

02:08:54 [vinod]

http://www.yohimbe-sexual-health.com/

02:08:54 [oacs-chump]

A: http://www.yohimbe-sexual-health.com/ from vinod

02:09:07 [vinod]

talli: ok... that's good to know

02:10:43 [talli]

rzolf: how are you finding webware?

02:10:59 [rzolf]

its pretty nice.

02:11:18 [rzolf]

however i'm using like 5% of its features.

02:11:23 [talli]

ah, ok

02:11:31 [talli]

most of your code is custom, i assume?

02:11:35 [rzolf]

sadly, the community seems to be like most other

02:11:49 [rzolf]

it starts out with something clean and reasonable

02:11:58 [rzolf]

then veers off into complete weirdo abstractionland

02:12:07 [talli]

ah, i see

02:12:17 [rzolf]

yes, the code is nearly all custom

02:12:33 [rzolf]

there are like 4 things that make web development easier

02:12:37 [talli]

from what i hear, philip is telling anyone who will listen to use .net

02:13:03 [rzolf]

.net actually is one of the only toolkits that has built in stuff that actually removes some of the serious drudgery from building webapps

02:13:19 [denshi]

.net is php + java.

02:13:22 [rzolf]

i.e. ad_page_contract

02:13:51 [rzolf]

all web development essentially is building some crappy webforms on top of a database

02:14:05 [rzolf]

and it is shocking the number of "toolkits" that exist

02:14:14 [rzolf]

that don't make that any easier

02:15:02 [rbm]

ooom

02:15:15 [rbm]

Java is a good example of not making it easier, as far as I saw it

02:15:24 [rzolf]

yes, java makes it worse.

02:15:42 [abbaJ]

java plus about 10 different apps makes web dev bearable

02:15:45 [rzolf]

all one really needs is a clean DB API, and something that does automatic form validation

02:15:47 [abbaJ]

you have to get ant

02:15:53 [abbaJ]

a persistence layer

02:16:02 [abbaJ]

and all this other stuff

02:16:04 [rbm]

This summer I'll try to really understand J2EE and .NET

02:16:23 [rzolf]

then, if someone could automate actually creating the forms

02:16:30 [rzolf]

no one would have to do any work.

02:16:41 [rzolf]

the closest i've come is emacs macros. :-(

02:16:44 [davb]

except graphic designers

02:17:25 [davb]

rbm: in tclpro, can I go back to a point and see what the variables are at that point in the program?

02:17:34 [rbm]

JUst returned from my department's graduation dinner. Was sickened by the brown nosers

02:18:24 [denshi]

destroy them, rbm. reach out with your hate.

02:18:24 [rbm]

They gave an "appreciation award" for this guy for reviving the ACM Chapter. It has now been revived for a year and had had like 10 meetings in this year.

02:18:39 [rbm]

This guy is also dating the department head's daughter

02:19:24 [denshi]

destroy her, too. oh, and destroy the ACM.

02:19:30 [rbm]

Our Free Software and Linux Club has existed for 3 years, had probably about 60 or 70 meetings, a dozen month-long workshops, 2 forums with international personalities.

02:20:51 [denshi]

rzolf, have you tried writing web apps with continuations?

02:21:33 [rzolf]

denshi, no.

02:21:38 [rzolf]

i don't even know what that means.

02:21:45 [vinod]

* vinod was just going to ask

02:22:04 [rbm]

every time I talk to Java zealots about web apps and why I think Java is not a good fit, all they can say (and they all say the same thing, as if they had all read the same pamphlet) is "Enterprise Java Beans make wonderful reusable components"

02:23:03 [rbm]

* rbm joins in the asking too

02:23:10 [rzolf]

java isn't that great for anything.

02:23:14 [denshi]

rbm, when are you going to get down to the destroying part of our show?!?!? First the ACM, then your department, then the EJB weenies!

02:23:22 [rbm]

denshi: :)

02:23:32 [denshi]

gitdown!

02:23:32 [paje]

gitfunky

02:24:02 [denshi]

rbm, does paje recognize future tense definitions?

02:24:05 [rbm]

how do you make paje reply to something like "gitdown!"?

02:24:15 [rbm]

* rbm shrugs

02:24:18 [denshi]

paje, again!

02:24:18 [paje]

* paje spanks talli

02:24:20 [rbm]

www.infobot.org

02:24:24 [vinod]

markd2 has special control over paje

02:24:37 [denshi]

paje, rbm?

02:24:37 [paje]

rbm is Roberto, http://www.brasileiro.net/

02:24:42 [davb]

argh

02:24:45 [denshi]

paje, forget rbm

02:24:45 [paje]

denshi: I forgot rbm

02:25:01 [vinod]

* vinod asks denshi to put down the caffeine and explain what a continuation is

02:25:14 [davb]

the errant variable appears to be defined outside of the tclSOAP code, but only tclSOAP is causing the error in the aolserver code.

02:25:17 [denshi]

rbm is a CS messiah who will crush all the EJB posers and their kindred and lead us all to a new era of coder enlightenment.

02:25:20 [denshi]

paje, rbm?

02:25:20 [paje]

rbm is a CS messiah who will crush all the EJB posers and their kindred and lead us all to a new era of coder enlightenment.

02:25:24 [denshi]

good.

02:25:32 [rbm]

wow.

02:25:36 [denshi]

okay, back to vinod.

02:25:40 [rbm]

* rbm founds the Church of Rbm

02:25:53 [denshi]

you can't found your own church!

02:26:20 [rbm]

I'll be Saint IgnuRbmius

02:26:28 [denshi]

a continuation is an abstraction representing the remainder of execution.

02:27:00 [rbm]

I'm off to spend some time with my wife watching a movie.

02:27:08 [rbm]

unmoo for now

02:27:21 [denshi]

can your wife help with the destroying part?

02:27:29 [rbm]

denshi: Probably :)

02:27:42 [denshi]

so you can, in the middle of a long pile of function calls, say "give me the current continuation", and then stick that into a variable somewhere.

02:28:30 [denshi]

it took me a bit just to grasp the idea that you can have a variable representing a stack of function calls and the binding environment. it's hard to visualize.

02:28:36 [abbaJ]

abbaJ has quit (Remote closed the connection)

02:29:25 [denshi]

so, later, you can say 'call this on this continuation', which is just like calling a normal function (syntax wise).

02:29:33 [talli]

btw, denshi, what did you think of that guys OLAP stuff?

02:29:39 [talli]

it seemed like, well, a crock

02:29:52 [denshi]

talli: he was baked out of his gourd.

02:30:27 [rzolf]

word

02:30:35 [talli]

i figured he must have been a bit clueless when first he kept callnig oACS a CMS system, and then he mentioned transactions being better in OLAP

02:30:42 [talli]

rzolf: have you ever done any OLAP programming?

02:30:55 [rzolf]

no i don't even know what olap is.

02:31:12 [denshi]

OLAP: 'OnLine Analytic Processing'

02:31:13 [oacs-chump]

Label OLAP not found.

02:31:29 [talli]

yeah, what the hell is that?

02:31:33 [rzolf]

i usually ignore acronyms until i actually have to use them.

02:31:40 [talli]

it seems like a way for programmers to get paid alot for not using a DB

02:31:57 [rzolf]

sigh.

02:31:59 [denshi]

basically a DB designed for rapid queries with poor constraint support.

02:32:00 [talli]

like, writing a lot more code to do what a couple SQL statements can do

02:32:26 [denshi]

totally useless for updates; in fact I don't remember any syntax for updates.

02:32:57 [talli]

so what is it good for?

02:32:57 [denshi]

for that you use 'OLTP': "OnLine TRANSACTION Processing', ie, a RBDMS with a normalized schema.

02:33:02 [talli]

"invoices"?

02:33:22 [denshi]

fuck all if I know. for analysis most people use DSS, which I don't know at all.

02:33:35 [rzolf]

maybe it is good for like, retrieving info from reuters

02:33:47 [talli]

haha

02:33:47 [rzolf]

etc.

02:33:52 [rzolf]

seriously though.

02:33:56 [denshi]

so re: OLAP, you could have shut that guy up just by expanding his damn acronyms.

02:33:57 [rzolf]

yon worked at reuters

02:34:33 [rzolf]

like, if it is a DB designed for rapid queries

02:34:58 [rzolf]

its probably good for systems where retreiving data is more important than transactions.

02:35:15 [talli]

rzolf: he was talkign about financial systems, though

02:35:23 [davb]

rzolf: i think you probably replicate the data, then olap it.

02:35:31 [rzolf]

transactions though, or getting stock quotes?

02:35:49 [talli]

he was talking about "enterprise" financial projects

02:35:52 [davb]

recording financial transactions for accounting etc...

02:35:55 [talli]

so certainly he needed transactions

02:36:01 [rzolf]

ok.

02:36:16 [talli]

i see

02:36:24 [rzolf]

some dbs are optimized just for that, too.

02:36:32 [rzolf]

like whatever visa uses.

02:36:52 [talli]

well, he certainly wasn't thinking of building applications for visa

02:37:04 [davb]

ARGH!

02:37:07 [rzolf]

anyway. whatever it all is, i'm nearly certain that OLAP/OLTP is the domain of someone who isn't integrating stuff with oacs.

02:37:13 [denshi]

if he builds applications for visa I want to beat him up for a bit.

02:37:22 [davb]

I am astounded that this code causes a tcl error that does not actually exist.

02:37:27 [talli]

the thing is, he would have been slapped silly by someone that knew everything, like DonB

02:37:39 [Thursdayphylax]

Do you guys ever take a break to talk about fun stuff?

02:37:42 [talli]

or Luke

02:37:47 [talli]

or Johnseq

02:37:53 [Thursdayphylax]

Thursdayphylax is now known as Fridayphylax

02:37:53 [denshi]

visa must keep zip codes in like 3 tables. I've tried twice to change addresses with them.

02:37:55 [talli]

those are people that i know, at least

02:37:59 [davb]

oh, good think I didn't talk to luke then :)

02:38:05 [denshi]

yeah but Johnseq is polite.

02:38:09 [rzolf]

phylax, yes earlier i was talking about how i wanted to drive a car into a wall.

02:38:11 [talli]

true enough

02:38:18 [Fridayphylax]

that would hurt

02:38:20 [Fridayphylax]

nor is it fun

02:38:31 [talli]

but johnseq also builds *alot* of OLAP projects

02:38:44 [talli]

i asked him what he thought, and his response was, "i'll write you an email about it"

02:38:44 [rzolf]

what is johnseq's hourly rate.

02:39:16 [talli]

http://radio.weblogs.com/0103492

02:39:16 [oacs-chump]

B: http://radio.weblogs.com/0103492 from talli

02:39:25 [talli]

B: John Sequiera's weblog

02:39:25 [oacs-chump]

added comment B1

02:39:35 [Fridayphylax]

lol

02:39:38 [Fridayphylax]

buzzword bingo!

02:40:11 [talli]

check out what he says about .net, though, which he is actually *using* in a project

02:40:17 [denshi]

vinod still here?

02:40:47 [vinod]

yup... googling for continuations :-)

02:40:51 [rzolf]

which is davis square.

02:40:56 [rzolf]

the one in sommerville?

02:40:57 [Fridayphylax]

yeah isn't that basically true for most "new" things

02:41:00 [davb]

wow. cool

02:41:18 [Fridayphylax]

I'm sure that like 50% of all procramming can still be done in FORTRAN and COBOL

02:41:30 [denshi]

i should finish my continuations rant

02:41:36 [vinod]

http://library.readscheme.org/page6.html

02:41:37 [oacs-chump]

C: http://library.readscheme.org/page6.html from vinod

02:41:45 [vinod]

C:| Continuations Galore

02:41:45 [oacs-chump]

titled item C

02:41:46 [rzolf]

this weblog actually is useful, rather than being irritating.

02:42:57 [vinod]

C: all above my head

02:42:57 [oacs-chump]

added comment C1

02:43:34 [talli]

rzolf: which one?

02:43:39 [talli]

john's?

02:43:45 [talli]

johnseq rocks

02:43:50 [rzolf]

yeah

02:44:13 [talli]

he knows everything about everything, at lesat when it comes to DB projects

02:45:20 [davb]

arhgargjargjargj

02:45:57 [davb]

* davb contemplates posting to the aolserver list

02:46:35 [vinod]

davb: we haven't been too helpful here, have we :-)

02:46:41 [davb]

I think the problem is in the aolserver C code that fools around with the tcl interpreter

02:46:49 [davb]

this is a stupid problem.

02:46:58 [denshi]

vinod: where were we on continuations? it's really cool how they can be used with web pages.

02:47:13 [davb]

it works in adp pages. it works in tclsh. there is no reason you can't say "global errorCode" as many times as you want without an error message.

02:47:26 [davb]

denshi: continuations with web pages.

02:47:29 [davb]

interesting.

02:47:47 [vinod]

denshi: i don't know if i understand what you said so far. it sounds like threads that can get stopped and started programmatically

02:48:27 [denshi]

hmm..

02:48:55 [denshi]

the only similarity there is the non-deterministic part.

02:49:12 [davb]

http://www.readscheme.org/xml-web/

02:49:12 [oacs-chump]

D: http://www.readscheme.org/xml-web/ from davb

02:49:30 [davb]

D: links to a couple of papers specifically about continuations and web programming

02:49:30 [oacs-chump]

added comment D1

02:50:38 [davb]

exit

02:50:40 [davb]

oops

02:50:41 [davb]

:)

02:50:52 [denshi]

okay, davb, where the hell do you find all this time?

02:51:14 [davb]

time to what?

02:51:18 [davb]

i didn't read them :)

02:51:26 [davb]

I never do any work.

02:51:33 [denshi]

you're better than google.

02:51:41 [vinod]

haha

02:51:45 [denshi]

maybe we can IPO you and all buy skateboard training.

02:51:52 [davb]

I knew that stuff was there from before. I chumped it for you way back.

02:52:53 [denshi]

then once we all become tanned, muscle-bound aikido master genius stud pro skateboarders, we can IPO that and buy NYC.

02:53:25 [davb]

maybe I should sign up for google answers.

02:53:42 [denshi]

I'm already working on the video game plot: mutated web programmers force evacutation of manhattan.

02:54:47 [denshi]

man, this is good coffee.

02:55:17 [denshi]

I'm not sure I can really explain continuations usage without some good example code (which I'm working on)

02:55:37 [davb]

interesting. did they use that on yahoo store?

02:55:57 [denshi]

yes, that's what got me started on this thread.

02:56:04 [Fridayphylax]

* Fridayphylax is distracted by mark's log

02:56:09 [davb]

ok.

02:56:14 [davb]

then it definitely "works

02:56:46 [Fridayphylax]

they finished it...cool... :)

02:57:04 [denshi]

basically, take a continuation whenever you want to spin off a form to a user, stick the continuation somewhere in shared mem.

02:57:25 [davb]

* davb adds "band head against wall" to the tclpro debugging doc

02:57:45 [denshi]

user submits the form, with a session key to ident his continuation, and then call on that with the submitted arguments.

02:58:22 [rzolf]

i think that continuation thing story is BS.

02:58:48 [denshi]

in sum, generating a page and accepting the return vars is more or less indistinguishable from calling a function.

02:58:54 [denshi]

rzolf: whose?

02:59:07 [rzolf]

"we were able to build yahoo stores so much more quickly because lisp had continuations"

02:59:19 [rzolf]

whereas...it was more along the lines of

02:59:40 [rzolf]

"we were able to build yahoo stores so much more quickly because we had programmed a computer once before, whereas our competitors had not"

03:00:10 [denshi]

heh.

03:00:12 [rzolf]

and the other thing is, lisp makes up only about 25% of that entire system.

03:00:15 [denshi]

probably.

03:00:59 [rzolf]

lisp is cool, i like lisp. but the reason why everyone hates lisp

03:01:05 [denshi]

so far as I have worked, though, I really like using continuations. that's why I'm asking here, to see if anyone else has.

03:01:17 [rzolf]

is because you need some lisp dildo to maintain the system for eternity

03:01:35 [rzolf]

because lisp code is unmaintainable by anyone but the original author.

03:01:46 [talli]

so... you mean it's just like perl?

03:01:53 [rzolf]

yes, sort of.

03:01:59 [denshi]

strangely enough, yes.

03:02:01 [davb]

no perl in unmaintainable by anyone

03:02:06 [denshi]

socially, too.

03:02:07 [davb]

s/in/is

03:02:17 [denshi]

lisp weenies are just like perl weenies, except they have PhDs.

03:03:16 [denshi]

mostly the maintainability is that the standard libraries don't do anything you actually need.

03:03:23 [rzolf]

exactly

03:03:34 [denshi]

the spec is targeting 1985 or something.

03:03:44 [rzolf]

like...java sucks. but at least if someone knows jdbc, they can fix someone else's jdbc code

03:04:02 [rzolf]

with lisp, you have to find out what the genius lisp hacker named all his functions

03:04:16 [denshi]

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=30833&cid=3313595

03:04:16 [oacs-chump]

E: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=30833&cid=3313595 from denshi

03:04:17 [rzolf]

by digging through his code

03:04:25 [denshi]

E: Even Yoda got his ass zapped when he got out of line.

03:04:25 [oacs-chump]

added comment E1

03:04:58 [rzolf]

it is a total "special needs" situation.

03:05:00 [denshi]

this is off-track. continuations are in more than lisp.

03:05:07 [rzolf]

yeah. i just wanted to vent.

03:05:30 [rzolf]

because paul graham's site is all about "how lisp led us to victory" and that is such bullshit.

03:05:54 [Fridayphylax]

paje, grep domokun

03:05:54 [paje]

Fridayphylax: huh?

03:06:09 [Fridayphylax]

oacs-logger, grep domokun

03:11:54 [oacs-logger]

I'm logging. I found 16 answers for 'domokun' (showing 0...4)

03:11:55 [oacs-logger]

0) 2002-04-26 03:06:09 <Fridayphylax> oacs-logger, grep domokun

03:11:56 [oacs-logger]

1) 2002-04-26 03:05:54 <Fridayphylax> paje, grep domokun

03:11:57 [oacs-logger]

2) 2002-04-25 16:12:36 <denshi> like a domokun molesting a kitten convicted of securities fraud at 24 frames per second.

03:11:58 [oacs-logger]

3) 2002-04-24 17:58:33 <Wednesdayphylax> And what the hell is a domokun?

03:11:59 [oacs-logger]

4) 2002-03-15 16:27:24 <chump> E: http://drew.corrupt.net/think-of-the-domokun.jpg from markd2

03:12:28 [davb]

oacs-logger: grep domokun

03:12:28 [talli]

sorry to bring us back to the earlier discussion, but denshi, what did you think of that dude's assertions about C?

03:12:28 [Fridayphylax]

i know mark linked me to a video yesterday

03:12:28 [Fridayphylax]

where is it

03:12:28 [talli]

it sounded a bit like a script kiddie

03:12:28 [denshi]

well, I wouldn't want to write something in C.

03:12:28 [talli]

someone who didn't know how to really code, so move all the easy stuff to python

03:12:28 [denshi]

but you're right, he's a script kiddie.

03:12:28 [rzolf]

how come everyone hates C.

03:12:28 [Fridayphylax]

dave, where's the log for yesterday?

03:12:28 [davb]

check you server messages

03:12:28 [talli]

rzolf: as a non-coder, i don't know

03:12:28 [talli]

but it can't be that bad

03:12:28 [Fridayphylax]

me?

03:12:28 [rzolf]

aside from the fact that 90% of the code you write in C is error checking.

03:12:28 [davb]

yeah. it tells you when you enter the channel

03:12:28 [talli]

there's just a different mindset to coding in a scripting language

03:12:28 [davb]

oh wait...

03:12:28 [davb]

yeah, you have to know what you are doing

03:12:28 [talli]

the thign about C is that it is, and seemingly always will be, the uber-language

03:12:28 [rzolf]

the weird thing is. that C is totally easy.

03:12:28 [talli]

forget Java, python, C++ etc

03:12:28 [talli]

C is everywhere

03:12:28 [talli]

the OS is built in C

03:12:28 [talli]

the DBs are built in C

03:12:28 [talli]

the servers are built in C

03:12:28 [denshi]

it's a virus.

03:12:28 [davb]

heh

03:12:28 [Fridayphylax]

Dave

03:12:28 [rzolf]

like. that joel on software weed.

03:12:28 [Fridayphylax]

How can you have the log for the future?

03:12:28 [rzolf]

has some weird comments

03:12:28 [denshi]

no, really. it provides just enough.

03:12:28 [davb]

Fridayphylax: I suspect the date is wrong on my server :)

03:12:28 [davb]

its UTC

03:12:28 [rzolf]

about how certain brains can't understand pointers.

03:12:28 [Fridayphylax]

I suspect so too

03:12:28 [rzolf]

which is total BS.

03:12:28 [denshi]

C is a portable assembler. if you can teach someone about the von Neumann architecture, they can write C.

03:12:28 [rzolf]

its just that, once you get to the pointer stage of CS102

03:12:28 [rzolf]

most people think "wow, this looks like a crappy life" and then give up.

03:12:28 [vinod]

haha

03:12:28 [davb]

rzolf: I suspect you are right.

03:12:28 [talli]

too bad markd2 isn't here

03:12:28 [talli]

i think rzolf's latest line is one for the quote file

03:12:28 [davb]

Fridayphylax: http://zelda.cl.msu.edu:8080/glowack2/movies/

03:12:28 [vinod]

talli: i'll second that motion

03:12:28 [davb]

that'll be $4

03:12:28 [talli]

the thing about MS people, like spolsky, is that they've never seen anything else

03:12:28 [davb]

davb is now known as googleman

03:12:28 [rzolf]

the thing i find interesting about splosky

03:12:28 [talli]

they're not really worth listening too because all they can do is thank MS for giving them more air to breathe

03:12:28 [rzolf]

and greenspun

03:12:32 [rzolf]

is that it seems like. if you write ANYTHING down

03:12:38 [rzolf]

people will believe it.

03:12:44 [talli]

yes, that too

03:12:56 [talli]

but those guys aren't really programmers, are they?

03:13:01 [rzolf]

i dont know.

03:13:03 [talli]

i mean, they *once* did something

03:13:08 [talli]

now they just comment

03:13:15 [rzolf]

splosky wrote like. a bad version of MS frontpage in visual basic.

03:13:29 [rzolf]

and a bug tracking system. (argh)

03:13:44 [talli]

haha

03:13:54 [rzolf]

all his followers seem to be neglecting that

03:14:10 [googleman]

but he worked at MS!

03:14:13 [rzolf]

"hey, wait a minute. this guy's main software product is another version of bugzilla"

03:14:24 [Fridayphylax]

* Fridayphylax goes to bed

03:14:40 [denshi]

* denshi goes back to work

03:14:58 [googleman]

* googleman goes insane

03:15:01 [googleman]

googleman is now known as davb

03:15:05 [rzolf]

does splosky actually make money?

03:15:10 [rzolf]

* rzolf has a one track mind.

03:15:36 [rzolf]

like, if i become a micro celebrity nerd, will that lead to huge consulting fees?

03:15:44 [vinod]

davb is officially a hacker now

03:15:48 [davb]

rzolf is 0 to off-topic in .0001 seconds

03:15:54 [rzolf]

haha.

03:16:16 [vinod]

rzolf: there's only one way to find out. turn gitdown.com into a blog

03:16:30 [rzolf]

i could. but. i really find that abhorrent.

03:16:33 [davb]

rzolf: watch joel to see if he goes for venture captial, the company goes downhill etc...

03:16:34 [talli]

rzolf: ask philip

03:16:45 [rzolf]

talli: sigh.

03:16:51 [vinod]

rzolf: abhorrent == $$$

03:17:09 [rzolf]

i don't really want the pseudo fame, i just want the added money.

03:17:22 [davb]

so skateboarding it is

03:17:31 [rzolf]

so i can buy a house in south dakota, and build a skateboard ramp in the bask.

03:17:33 [rzolf]

back.

03:17:35 [vinod]

is there a senior skateboarding circuit?

03:17:39 [rzolf]

vinod, there is.

03:17:44 [vinod]

no way!

03:17:49 [rzolf]

the master's bowl series.

03:17:52 [vinod]

how old do you have to be?

03:17:54 [denshi]

to be serious for a split second, the lesson here is that a coder who writes well gets $$$. My question is, is that because the guy in question is educating the readers, or is it just mental fellatio?

03:17:57 [rzolf]

35 i think.

03:18:01 [vinod]

haha

03:18:10 [vinod]

so i could practice for a few years

03:18:18 [rzolf]

yeah, but tony hawk is 34.

03:18:32 [rzolf]

so...you'd have some stiff competition.

03:18:45 [rzolf]

denshi: mostly fellatio.

03:19:07 [rzolf]

i would argue that in philip's case it was 80% entertainment, 20% education

03:19:26 [talli]

but philip was/is entertaining

03:19:26 [rzolf]

like. if you re-read most of his stuff.

03:19:27 [davb]

denshi: there are other much better coders who are also excellent writers who don't have that type of situation

03:19:31 [rzolf]

he isn't saying anything.

03:19:36 [rzolf]

but he is sort of funny.

03:19:41 [davb]

yes.

03:19:52 [rzolf]

and most pundits are about as funny as john dvorak.

03:19:52 [davb]

and know I am here.

03:19:56 [talli]

and there are plenty of funny people who are not people you want to be around

03:20:35 [talli]

oh well

03:20:42 [rzolf]

i think philip really struck a chord with people who were doing like java webapps in 1998

03:20:49 [rzolf]

like... the pre-JDBC era

03:20:57 [rzolf]

when life was even worse than it is now.

03:21:36 [rzolf]

"please migrate our site consisting of 11 million static html files to java."

03:21:43 [rzolf]

"What??"

03:21:46 [rzolf]

"hurry up."

03:21:58 [davb]

" our budget is $8"

03:22:21 [rzolf]

"by the way, the guy at yahoo made $120 million with the static files"

03:22:25 [talli]

davb: you speak from experience?

03:22:31 [rzolf]

"too bad you lived on the wrong coast"

03:22:49 [talli]

rzolf: with gems like that, you really ought to start a blog

03:22:59 [davb]

well, I exaggerated. the budget was much smaller.

03:23:19 [davb]

I am going to try aolserver 4 just for fun.

03:23:25 [denshi]

http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/MPAA_DVD_cases/20011128_ny_appeal_decision.html

03:23:25 [oacs-chump]

F: http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/MPAA_DVD_cases/20011128_ny_appeal_decision.html from denshi

03:23:25 [rzolf]

yes.

03:23:30 [rzolf]

my blog would be great

03:23:48 [denshi]

F: frisky MPAA claims there is no constitutional basis for Fair Use.

03:23:48 [oacs-chump]

added comment F1

03:24:09 [rzolf]

sadly i'm more of an IRC performance artist

03:24:24 [davb]

rzolf: IRC weblog!

03:24:27 [denshi]

F: in the movies, this is where Arnold Schwartzaneggar jumps through a window and shoots them all.

03:24:27 [oacs-chump]

added comment F2

03:24:35 [rzolf]

my sharp quips only take place in chat

03:24:50 [rzolf]

away from other people i cannot think of anything to say.

03:25:03 [denshi]

how about if markd just quotes all your stuff and you blog that?

03:25:07 [davb]

anyone know how to cause make-install to install to a different directory than /usr/local/aolserver

03:25:30 [vinod]

make install PREFIX=/blah

03:25:31 [denshi]

davb: ./configure --prefix=/playpen/projects/aolserver4

03:25:35 [denshi]

or something.

03:25:35 [paje]

somebody said something was making davb's delete pl/pgsql procs take way too long.

03:25:48 [davb]

even better, just scrape markd2s quotes as your weblog

03:25:55 [davb]

thanks

03:26:08 [rzolf]

sure.

03:26:14 [rzolf]

i better check out markd's quotes

03:26:23 [rzolf]

i'm unclear as to what you guys are even talkign about

03:26:25 [davb]

nm, its a binary

03:26:56 [talli]

hey davb, don't be afraid of posting on the AOLserver list!

03:27:07 [talli]

you know as much about that stuff as anyone on this channel, and in the community!

03:27:19 [davb]

http://badgertronics.com/writings/quotes.txt

03:27:20 [oacs-chump]

G: http://badgertronics.com/writings/quotes.txt from davb

03:28:09 [rzolf]

whoa that crazy one about black gospel choirs.

03:28:16 [rzolf]

where did i say that?

03:28:43 [vinod]

markd2 reads minds, too

03:28:47 [rzolf]

i remember someone getting real mad about that.

03:28:50 [rzolf]

but i can't remember where.

03:30:19 [rzolf]

i fear, [Prince] is going to end up a more sorry spectacle than

03:30:20 [rzolf]

james brown

03:30:24 [davb]

I think it was here.

03:30:25 [rzolf]

hey, I'm pretty clever.

03:31:31 [rzolf]

haha

03:31:37 [rzolf]

there is a good LoTR comment in here.

03:32:21 [rzolf]

i think that black gospel choir thing was from the ex-aD list.

03:32:22 [rzolf]

maybe.

03:38:54 [davb]

time to go

03:38:55 [davb]

bye

03:38:57 [davb]

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03:51:27 [rzolf]

bbl.

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04:03:17 [ChanServ]

[#openacs] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog

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12:56:42 [davb]

now I suspect the http tcl package for causing my variable problem with tclSOAP

12:56:54 [davb]

which I can safely remove if I write an aolserver specific transport.

13:05:45 [lilo]

[GlobalNotice] Hi all. Just a reminder: From time to time, non-critical announcements, comments and detailed OPN administrative information can be found on wallops. Set your usermode to +w if you want to see them. Thanks.

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13:22:45 [davb]

should I replicate the ::http commands frm the tcl http package so that the tclsoap code will "just work"?

13:23:03 [til]

hi davb

13:23:15 [til]

whats the problem with the http package?

13:23:43 [davb]

I am just guessing, but I figured it would be nicer to use the aolserver http procs instead of loading in some new ones.

13:23:45 [til]

ah, i remember that there were some global namespace issues

13:23:50 [davb]

yes.

13:24:17 [davb]

I suspect http because it looks like the package the tclsoap uses that sets errorCode

13:24:29 [til]

if you want you can look at the tclwebtest package, it does some modifications ontthe http package so that it is usable from within aolserver

13:24:37 [davb]

nifty

13:24:39 [davb]

thanks alot!

13:24:52 [davb]

I knew talking to myself int he channel would pay off one day.

13:25:04 [til]

iirc http sets some global variables

13:25:04 [til]

haha

13:26:50 [davb]

is that in CVS?

13:27:02 [til]

no, in new-file-storage

13:27:12 [davb]

cool. thanks

13:27:17 [markd2]

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13:28:35 [davb]

argh

13:28:44 [davb]

wget can't get stuff frm new-file-storage

13:28:51 [markd2]

argh indeed

13:29:46 [davb]

links works

13:30:01 [til]

weird

13:40:27 [Fridayphylax]

morning

13:41:35 [davb]

yes it is

13:41:51 [Fridayphylax]

thank you

13:42:02 [Fridayphylax]

I'm getting rid of my stuff

13:42:23 [markd2]

finally found a decent cult to give all your worldly possessions to?

13:42:33 [Fridayphylax]

nope

13:42:41 [davb]

http://www.bossmonster.com/games/antcity.html

13:42:42 [oacs-chump]

H: http://www.bossmonster.com/games/antcity.html from davb

13:42:43 [Fridayphylax]

finally realized I have too much crap I have no use for

13:45:04 [Fridayphylax]

Example: College Course Registration books from my Sophomore year in college

13:45:52 [Fridayphylax]

problem is...I graduated

13:46:26 [Fridayphylax]

Mark, I'll give you a cookie if you tell me what those potato looking things Natalie Portman had in her hands...The link to the 100 meg movie is dead

13:47:52 [markd2]

Domokun!

13:48:21 [davb]

I thought they looked more like bricks.

13:48:30 [davb]

i never saw that movie.

13:48:34 [davb]

darnies

13:48:53 [Fridayphylax]

hehehe

13:48:58 [Fridayphylax]

Yes but what is a domokun?

13:49:06 [Fridayphylax]

If it's not a potato...and it's not a turd

13:49:06 [davb]

it just is.

13:54:16 [Fridayphylax]

MArk...did you get my notice?

13:54:31 [markd2]

yep

13:54:47 [markd2]

I'm on a slow slow slow line. dcc isn't workable

13:54:52 [Fridayphylax]

lol

13:54:53 [Fridayphylax]

ok

13:55:09 [Fridayphylax]

can you tar up the file on the server for a sec so I can dl it instead of trying to play it in the browser?

13:56:05 [Fridayphylax]

don't worry

13:56:07 [Fridayphylax]

I got it

13:56:17 [markd2]

beauty of symlinks :-)

13:56:25 [Fridayphylax]

nope...beauty of opera

13:56:30 [Fridayphylax]

Smart browser

13:57:12 [davb]

ok. i took everything out. except SOAP.tcl. all the other packages are never sourced. i am still getting the error.

13:58:01 [rbm]

ooom

13:58:16 [davb]

hmmm. somewhere the global namespace isn't getting cleaned out at the end of a thread. should it be?

13:58:24 [davb]

* davb points to markd2

13:58:25 [davb]

:)

13:59:03 [markd2]

yeah

13:59:15 [markd2]

I think explicit namespaces don't get cleaned up well

13:59:47 [davb]

well this the the global namespace which is kinda always there :)

14:00:00 [davb]

unless the variable is being created in another namespace and screwing things up.

14:00:38 [Fridayphylax]

Dave

14:00:44 [Fridayphylax]

did you want to watch the video?

14:00:53 [davb]

no sound :(

14:00:58 [Fridayphylax]

hmmm

14:01:02 [Fridayphylax]

WHy not?

14:01:10 [davb]

boss is too cheap?

14:01:17 [Fridayphylax]

LOL

14:01:27 [davb]

anyone try that anycity link?

14:01:27 [Fridayphylax]

What about at home?

14:01:30 [markd2]

you definitely need sound

14:01:33 [davb]

yeah. home has sound.

14:01:39 [Fridayphylax]

you get it from home then

14:01:41 [markd2]

I saw antcity awhile ago. pretty fun

14:02:05 [davb]

hey! i don;t remember it in your weblog. are you holding out on us??

14:02:51 [davb]

ok enough of that.

14:06:18 [davb]

aha!

14:06:35 [davb]

somewhere is this code is the answer:

14:06:39 [davb]

global tcl_version tcl_pkgPath tcl_library tcl_platform auto_path

14:06:39 [davb]

set tcl_pkgPath /usr/lib

14:06:39 [davb]

set tcl_library [file join $tcl_pkgPath tcl${tcl_version}]

14:06:39 [davb]

set tcl_platform(platform) "unix"

14:06:39 [davb]

set auto_path [list /usr/lib/tcl8.3 /usr/lib]

14:06:39 [davb]

source [file join $tcl_library init.tcl]

14:06:40 [davb]

source [file join $tcl_library package.tcl]

14:08:11 [davb]

ok setting "global tcl_version" is killing it.

14:08:14 [davb]

weird.

14:08:35 [markd2]

weird

14:09:03 [davb]

actually maybe not.

14:09:16 [davb]

unfortunately, if I get that error I have to restart the server to clear it out.

14:10:20 [davb]

aolserver still has a bug that tcl_library, tcl_version etc... are not set in tcl interpreters for tcl pages. but for adp pages they are.

14:10:44 [davb]

wait. everything except tcl_library in adps.

14:11:57 [markd2]

http://kimbo-be-coo.com/domo-dance.swf

14:11:57 [oacs-chump]

I: http://kimbo-be-coo.com/domo-dance.swf from markd2

14:12:07 [markd2]

I: domo-kun answer to hamster dance

14:12:07 [oacs-chump]

added comment I1

14:13:21 [davb]

arghargharghargh

14:13:33 [davb]

ok. to make package-require work, you need to source init.tcl

14:13:45 [davb]

which does [info library] which needs tcl_library to be set.

14:14:02 [Fridayphylax]

lololololol

14:16:57 [vinod]

vinod (~vinod@207-172-216-85.s1101.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs

14:20:27 [Fridayphylax]

that's too funny

14:20:29 [Fridayphylax]

hi vinod

14:21:18 [vinod]

good mornin!

14:23:23 [Fridayphylax]

It's Fridayphylax !

14:23:34 [Fridayphylax]

Actually...its just Friday without the phylax

14:25:16 [markd2]

hey vinod

14:25:25 [vinod]

hey markd2

14:25:33 [markd2]

when do you start your gig in NY?

14:25:55 [vinod]

i think june 24th

14:26:20 [vinod]

but i'll probably move down june 1st or so

14:26:36 [Fridayphylax]

whoa

14:26:39 [Fridayphylax]

trippy

14:26:40 [Fridayphylax]

Vinod in NYC

14:26:47 [Fridayphylax]

* Fridayphylax hides

14:27:02 [vinod]

heh - scary, huh?

14:29:21 [Fridayphylax]

very

14:31:09 [vinod]

i'm getting all these weird emails cuz someone typed blah@kurup.org instead of blah@kurupt.org

14:31:33 [vinod]

they're all in french

14:32:24 [Fridayphylax]

lol

14:32:28 [Fridayphylax]

well

14:32:31 [Fridayphylax]

I got you beat

14:32:56 [Fridayphylax]

Someone in the UK was testing out their pizza delivery system, so I got confirmation e-mails since they used nobody@neverhere.com

14:32:58 [markd2]

send 'em all back mail "you stupid frogs! you should speak a normal language like English rather than that gobbledy-gook you speak"

14:33:07 [vinod]

haha

14:33:27 [Fridayphylax]

If it was in NY I would just go deliver them too haha

14:33:29 [markd2]

did you write back and tell them of their error?

14:33:49 [Fridayphylax]

nah...I think they knew what htey were doing

14:36:13 [vinod]

i'm sending them an email now

14:36:34 [vinod]

* vinod is copying markd2's line about gobbeldy-gook

14:37:13 [markd2]

"Pléaze ztop zending me maîl, for *I* ám the only kürüpt one heré"

14:38:22 [vinod]

haha

14:38:30 [talli]

markd2, i didn't know you were Colonel Klink

14:38:30 [Fridayphylax]

ROFL

14:41:09 [markd2]

I used to channel Shultz, before I lost some weight

14:44:44 [talli]

btw, you have a misspelling

14:44:52 [talli]

"the" should be "ze"

14:44:57 [talli]

just fyi

14:45:38 [markd2]

it's still early in the morning

14:45:44 [markd2]

I haven't had my liederhosen yet

14:45:51 [markd2]

take me to your leiderhösen

14:45:58 [talli]

ah, ok

14:46:07 [vinod]

so - the liederhosen diet is working, huh?

14:47:14 [markd2]

yes!

14:47:21 [markd2]

muchos thankos for the suggestion

14:47:23 [markd2]

you should write a book

14:48:48 [vinod]

to be honest, i just needed to get rid of all that liederhosen. i'm glad it ended up working though :-)

14:48:59 [vinod]

* vinod likes saying liederhosen

14:49:25 [markd2]

fearless liederhosen

14:49:42 [markd2]

Coca-Cola in the 2-liederhosen bottle

14:50:25 [talli]

let loose your liederhosen throttle

14:50:36 [davb]

ok. so I have proven that AOLserver sucks using standard tcl packages and it's not any other packages fault.

14:51:01 [talli]

well, i could have told you that

14:51:17 [talli]

but it's good you were thorough and proved it

14:51:52 [davb]

well I am still researching. if you do global tcl_library you get an error

14:51:58 [davb]

variable "errorCode" already exists.

14:54:04 [davb]

it seems that any global foo in a tcl file screws up the interpreter.

14:54:17 [davb]

weird.

14:55:50 [davb]

actually no, i lied

14:56:18 [rbm]

vinod: you here?L

14:56:18 [markd2]

lied-erhosen!

14:57:05 [davb]

hmmm.

14:57:12 [davb]

perhaps it is the sourcing of init.tcl

14:58:52 [davb]

ah. it seems to be init.tcl

14:59:46 [davb]

weird. it still works for adp pages.

15:00:43 [docwolf]

docwolf (~docwolf@adsl-32-221-12.bct.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs

15:00:59 [vinod]

markd2: yup, i'm back

15:01:05 [vinod]

docwolf!

15:01:05 [paje]

docwolf is probably the phpnuke expert

15:01:20 [markd2]

rbm: vinod's here :-)

15:01:32 [vinod]

oops :-)

15:01:35 [vinod]

hey rbm

15:02:49 [davb]

ack

15:02:50 [davb]

duh

15:04:38 [talli]

markd2: rzolf had a serious zinger last night that needs a markd2 judgement

15:04:46 [talli]

lemme get it for you

15:05:01 [talli]

<rzolf> the weird thing is. that C is totally easy.

15:05:10 [talli]

<rzolf> like. that joel on software weed.

15:05:10 [docwolf]

hi

15:05:17 [talli]

rzolf> has some weird comments

15:05:24 [talli]

<rzolf> about how certain brains can't understand pointers.

15:05:33 [talli]

<rzolf> which is total BS.

15:05:43 [talli]

<rzolf> its just that, once you get to the pointer stage of CS102

15:05:58 [talli]

<rzolf> most people think "wow, this looks like a crappy life" and then give up.

15:05:59 [rbm]

vinod: Did I forget that pen+stylus+laser pointer of mine in your apartment?

15:06:21 [vinod]

rbm: yes! i found it this morning

15:06:35 [Fridayphylax]

ROFL

15:06:37 [markd2]

heh

15:06:46 [talli]

the judgement?

15:06:53 [Fridayphylax]

E-mail it to roberto!

15:06:58 [vinod]

rbm: just give me your address and i'll send it t'ya

15:07:00 [markd2]

1763.5 on a scale of 1 to 1837

15:07:54 [talli]

what is recquired for the quote file?

15:08:20 [rbm]

vinod: thanks. appreciate that.

15:08:20 [Fridayphylax]

What the hell state is UT

15:08:29 [markd2]

Utah

15:08:33 [Fridayphylax]

oh

15:08:34 [vinod]

rbm: np

15:08:51 [rbm]

* rbm sends Fridayphylax back to middle school to study geography :)

15:08:55 [markd2]

admission ot the quote file requires a high score, plus general amusement factor

15:09:06 [Fridayphylax]

Well, soooorry...Not my fault Utah never does anything interesting

15:09:14 [Fridayphylax]

Not like Idaho that makes potatoes

15:09:21 [Fridayphylax]

or Wisconsin cheese

15:09:31 [markd2]

they make Mormans!

15:09:40 [rbm]

hey, Iomega is from Utah. Novell is from Utah.

15:09:42 [Fridayphylax]

Ok, what the hell is a Morman

15:09:49 [markd2]

(!)

15:09:52 [Fridayphylax]

Who are those?

15:09:52 [markd2]

you do lead a sheltered life

15:09:58 [rbm]

The Winter Olympics was here just 2 months ago. You don't watch TV?

15:10:12 [Fridayphylax]

Oh yeah...Salt Lake City?

15:10:13 [markd2]

http://www.lds.org/

15:10:13 [oacs-chump]

J: http://www.lds.org/ from markd2

15:10:29 [Fridayphylax]

And no, I don't really watch TV

15:10:32 [Fridayphylax]

Besides the Simpsons

15:10:33 [rbm]

s/morman/mormon/

15:10:38 [Fridayphylax]

Fridayphylax is now known as Shelterophylax

15:10:39 [markd2]

J:| in answer to Friday*'s 'w "what the hell is a Morman" question

15:10:39 [oacs-chump]

titled item J

15:10:44 [rbm]

That explains a lot :)

15:11:35 [davb]

hmmm. now that I recall, maybe I never did get package require working in tcl pages.

15:11:42 [markd2]

J: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0061/0061_01.asp Jack Chick has an opinion too

15:11:43 [oacs-chump]

added comment J1

15:12:24 [talli]

http://www.xml.com/pub/a/1999/05/xsl/xslconsidered_1.html

15:12:24 [oacs-chump]

K: http://www.xml.com/pub/a/1999/05/xsl/xslconsidered_1.html from talli

15:12:40 [talli]

K: XSL Considered Harmful

15:12:41 [oacs-chump]

added comment K1

15:12:49 [talli]

K: of course, this article is 3 years old...

15:12:49 [oacs-chump]

added comment K2

15:13:08 [Shelterophylax]

that lds.org thing doesn't work

15:13:33 [markd2]

loads fer me

15:13:58 [davb]

talli: xsl is good for some stuff.

15:34:39 [Shelterophylax]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/26/germany.shooting/index.html

15:34:41 [oacs-chump]

L: http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/26/germany.shooting/index.html from Shelterophylax

15:34:49 [Shelterophylax]

L:| Horror overseas

15:34:49 [oacs-chump]

titled item L

15:35:08 [Shelterophylax]

L: Eighteen people, including two children, have been killed and at least six injured after an expelled pupil went on the rampage with a gun at a high school in Germany, police say.

15:35:09 [oacs-chump]

added comment L1

15:38:58 [docwolf]

docwolf has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))

15:39:34 [Shelterophylax]

Anyone read that?

15:48:19 [markd2]

* markd2 blames TV and video games

15:48:50 [talli]

* talli blames badgertronics

15:49:04 [Shelterophylax]

* Shelterophylax blames cookies

15:49:09 [talli]

*especially* video badgertronics

15:49:16 [talli]

* talli shudders

15:49:23 [talli]

oh, and vinod's pants, too

15:50:21 [markd2]

and vinod's (now dwindling) supply of liederhosen

15:51:39 [talli]

http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0204/spidey/

15:51:40 [oacs-chump]

M: http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0204/spidey/ from talli

15:52:02 [talli]

M: A Guide to the Amazing Spectacular World of Spiderman

15:52:02 [oacs-chump]

added comment M1

15:52:14 [talli]

M: WITH HIS FILM "swinging" into theaters, America is caught in Spider-Man's "web," and will soon be "eaten."

15:52:15 [oacs-chump]

added comment M2

15:52:49 [talli]

http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0204/naked/

15:52:49 [oacs-chump]

N: http://www.modernhumorist.com/mh/0204/naked/ from talli

15:53:01 [talli]

N: The Ten Greatest Moments in Naked Newscasting

15:53:02 [oacs-chump]

added comment N1

15:54:05 [talli]

N: 1648 Rise of Puritanism forces town criers to wear pants.

15:54:05 [oacs-chump]

added comment N2

15:57:34 [vinod]

vinod has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

15:59:19 [vinod]

vinod (~vinod@209-122-233-151.s1961.apx2.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs

16:00:25 [Shelterophylax]

Any of you familiar with Feng Shui?

16:00:52 [markd2]

just in concept

16:01:35 [Shelterophylax]

Hmm

16:01:44 [Shelterophylax]

Some of the stuff makes sense

16:02:30 [talli]

feng shui has a funny history

16:03:02 [talli]

in ancient china, the flooding of the yellow river would overturn the graves that people were buried in

16:03:02 [Shelterophylax]

Let's hear it? :)

16:03:24 [talli]

so rich people would hire specific people to find them a burial ground that wouldn't be overturned

16:03:24 [Shelterophylax]

* Shelterophylax falls off his chair and dies of laughter

16:03:48 [talli]

these people would spend months looking for a burial ground, living off their rich patron

16:04:06 [talli]

saying things like, "oh, i almost found it today, but my compass broke" or something

16:04:35 [talli]

after a while, the government decided that they would mandate the burial grounds and defined where the cemetaries should be

16:04:35 [Shelterophylax]

Did they ever find good burial spots?

16:04:59 [talli]

however, this kinda screwed the guys who were living a fat life off those who thought they needed good burial spots

16:05:05 [talli]

so they came up with a new scam. which is feng shui

16:05:52 [Shelterophylax]

hehehehehe that is kinda nifty

16:06:03 [Shelterophylax]

but like some things make sense

16:06:09 [talli]

some of it may make sense

16:06:17 [Shelterophylax]

they had stuff about it on PBS or something

16:06:24 [talli]

but you can find the same sense in any book called "Interior Design"

16:06:30 [Shelterophylax]

Desk position...Desk should face the door

16:06:39 [Shelterophylax]

I had my desk facing the window

16:06:56 [Shelterophylax]

And now that I think about it, I don't like it anymore

16:07:26 [talli]

well, if you want, i would be happy to take $250 an hour to tell you about other things you don't like

16:07:53 [Shelterophylax]

lol

16:08:02 [Shelterophylax]

I'm trying to get rid of things I don't like

16:08:13 [Shelterophylax]

Things I have not used within last year will be thrown out or given away

16:11:00 [Shelterophylax]

anybody want an HO scale train set?

16:12:33 [davb]

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=457485&lastnode_id=21400

16:12:33 [oacs-chump]

O: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=457485&lastnode_id=21400 from davb

16:12:42 [davb]

O:|Top 12 things likely to be overheard if you had a Klingon programmer in your company.

16:12:43 [oacs-chump]

titled item O

16:12:51 [davb]

fridays seem conducive to chumping

16:12:53 [docwolf]

docwolf (~docwolf@adsl-32-221-12.bct.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs

16:15:00 [markd2]

markd2 has quit ("Bork")

16:15:48 [Shelterophylax]

LOL

16:18:06 [Shelterophylax]

Dave that's great

16:21:58 [Shelterophylax]

i like this site

16:27:21 [yzzyx]

yzzyx (~saras@213-48-145-185.cro.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #openacs

16:39:37 [talli]

hey yzzyx

16:41:34 [davb]

http://www.indystar.com/article.php?coaster23.html,living

16:41:35 [oacs-chump]

P: http://www.indystar.com/article.php?coaster23.html,living from davb

16:41:45 [davb]

P:|Backyard Roller Coaster

16:41:45 [oacs-chump]

titled item P

16:42:06 [rbm]

* rbm goes to campus

16:44:50 [yzzyx]

hello talli

16:45:00 [yzzyx]

hello all

16:45:12 [talli]

yzzyx: are you still with aD london?

16:46:28 [yzzyx]

talli: No - I've never worked for them. :(

16:46:34 [yzzyx]

What gave you that idea?

16:47:17 [talli]

oh, whoops

16:47:24 [talli]

i thought you were a different sara

16:47:27 [talli]

whoops

16:47:32 [talli]

you're saras!

16:47:34 [talli]

damn

16:47:36 [talli]

sorry

16:47:46 [talli]

i even emailed with you!

16:47:47 [talli]

i'm really sorry

16:47:55 [talli]

* talli blushes in shame

16:48:18 [yzzyx]

Ah Sarah Ewen. She's working for Sony on the Playstation I think.

16:48:23 [yzzyx]

Linux port.

16:48:24 [vinod]

wow - didn't think talli could feel shame

16:48:44 [talli]

i don't feel shame when you're involved, vinod

16:48:48 [yzzyx]

talli: No problem.

16:49:08 [talli]

this makes more sense now

16:49:35 [yzzyx]

talli: I thought aD London was dead.

16:50:11 [talli]

sarah ewen would never show up here

16:50:19 [talli]

most aD'ers would never show up here

16:50:48 [talli]

they were always pissed that people without degrees from MIT might be able to work on the project as well or better than they could

16:50:52 [yzzyx]

Oh. What happened to them?

16:51:28 [yzzyx]

Goes against Free Software/Open Source though.

16:51:49 [talli]

aD was only free/open source in name

16:51:57 [talli]

well, that's not fair

16:51:57 [docwolf]

*cough*

16:52:03 [talli]

haha

16:52:09 [talli]

well, we could always ask that bastard docwolf

16:52:19 [talli]

the aD "community liason"

16:53:29 [talli]

* talli remembers how docwolf tried to brush him off at the NY aD developers meeting because he was "hungry"

16:53:49 [docwolf]

i deny everything.

16:54:09 [docwolf]

that one event we had at the hotel was a complete farce

16:54:32 [talli]

shaheen proved himself to be a total prick there

16:54:39 [docwolf]

hehe. no comment :-)

16:55:05 [vinod]

yeah - and there wasn't a high enough beer-to-people ratio

16:55:10 [yzzyx]

Has Shaheen been blacklisted?

16:55:31 [docwolf]

i'm not sure what he's doing these days

16:56:01 [yzzyx]

Who cares really?

16:56:23 [talli]

shaheen was probably hired at some other old boy network company

16:56:29 [yzzyx]

Grrr.

16:56:46 [yzzyx]

What's done is done as Talli said to me.

16:57:17 [talli]

yzzyx: how's your experience with the OACS coming along?

16:58:36 [yzzyx]

talli: I've had bad problems w/ my Compaq. Two drives are hosed. Trying to get hold of spare 2GB SCAs.

16:58:48 [talli]

yowza

16:58:50 [talli]

bummer

16:59:27 [yzzyx]

I'll probably build my own machine soon. I've got some Xeon CPUs lying around, but mobos are rare.

17:00:35 [yzzyx]

A friend of a friend is an IBM engineer visiting the US, who claims to have picked up dual & quad mobos for me.

17:01:08 [yzzyx]

Been waiting for a long time though.

17:01:43 [talli]

holy

17:01:49 [talli]

xeon's laying around?

17:01:52 [talli]

that's not a bad thing to have

17:03:40 [davb]

talli: someone just had a really good question on the bboard.

17:03:50 [talli]

about?

17:03:52 [yzzyx]

Well, I talked to a Compaq upgrader, who sold me 2GB EDO RAM (expensive antique) and 4 Xeons.

17:03:57 [davb]

how can you have different UI for seperate instances of a package.

17:04:23 [davb]

we need a standard way of changing templtes and even page flow for packages.

17:04:54 [davb]

I think neophytos was thinking about this also :)

17:08:52 [talli]

yeah, i saw that

17:09:03 [talli]

we need to get that bastard to come into the channel more often

17:09:18 [talli]

he usually shows up if i just ping him with an email

17:25:49 [markd2]

markd2 (~markd2@h166-102-041-117.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs

17:27:29 [davb]

to hack or to work...

17:28:20 [markd2]

hack!

17:32:30 [davb]

hmmm. I still can;t figure out why init.tcl is causing this error.

17:42:32 [hazmat]

hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #openacs

17:42:32 [markd2]

post on the aolserver list? maybe rob'll appear with the answer.

17:43:19 [davb]

maybe. I want to figure out where it is screwing up.

17:45:51 [markd2]

searching for the problem is taking away your valuable time

17:45:59 [markd2]

for IRCing, and talking about goats and talli's (lack of) pants

17:46:29 [yzzyx]

Talli's lack of pants? Do I want him coming to socials?

17:46:39 [markd2]

that's half the fun

17:46:58 [markd2]

"pin the tail on the donkey" takes on a whole new meaning

17:47:07 [davb]

it is not an oacs social without talli

17:47:08 [yzzyx]

It's the other half that I'm frightened of.

17:47:17 [talli]

i don't have pants, it's true

17:47:25 [talli]

i have Pantelones

17:47:38 [markd2]

Pantelunacy

17:47:41 [talli]

and sometimes Pantaloons

17:47:42 [davb]

markd2: if I ever have any _valuable_ time i'll let you know.

17:47:47 [markd2]

heh

17:48:37 [davb]

the weird thing is. if it source init.tcl it causes the error. I am not even calling any of the procs in there.

17:49:04 [hazmat]

out of curosity, anyone tried running acs with aolserver4?

17:49:07 [talli]

davbpro == tclpro pro

17:49:16 [davb]

heh not even close.

17:49:22 [davb]

I was thinking about it.

17:49:36 [davb]

I downloaded it, but there is no configure script to tell it where to install.

17:49:36 [talli]

* talli goes to the office and transforms into...

17:49:40 [talli]

talli is now known as barstool

17:49:45 [markd2]

Osama!

17:50:03 [barstool]

* barstool sires another child

17:50:07 [barstool]

*sigh*

17:50:21 [barstool]

is anyone keeping track for me? i think that's 73...

17:50:28 [barstool]

* barstool must keep pants on when in tent

17:50:32 [barstool]

bbs

17:51:31 [yzzyx]

you're strange. I'm telling my mummy.

17:52:51 [hazmat]

* hazmat wonders what strange drugs the barstool has been varnished with

18:09:49 [Shelterophylax]

that was a good lunch

18:10:07 [Shelterophylax]

davbpro== da vb pro?

18:10:27 [Shelterophylax]

dave you program in vb?

18:10:45 [davb]

ahhhhhh noooooo

18:10:48 [davb]

actually kind of.

18:10:53 [davb]

but just in access.

18:10:57 [Shelterophylax]

Ewww

18:10:58 [markd2]

he cleans up messes others leave behind

18:11:02 [Shelterophylax]

access != RDBMS

18:11:16 [Shelterophylax]

Dave, I didn't know you have a dog...

18:11:26 [markd2]

just cow-orkers

18:11:35 [Shelterophylax]

Hmmm

18:11:35 [davb]

dude, its alot better than enable

18:11:41 [davb]

and I do have a dog :)

18:11:42 [Shelterophylax]

well, I do ork at a lot of cows

18:11:53 [davb]

someone stole my time sheets

18:12:05 [Shelterophylax]

heh

18:12:17 [Shelterophylax]

The two most inefficient days in a week

18:12:19 [Shelterophylax]

Monday and Friday

18:14:04 [Shelterophylax]

Shelterophylax is now known as LAZYGEEK

18:14:17 [LAZYGEEK]

I think I have a personality disorder

18:15:26 [markd2]

Mr. Perception Sam-I-am

18:15:33 [LAZYGEEK]

I am Sam?

18:15:44 [markd2]

ever hear the moxy-früvous Green Eggs and Ham?

18:15:58 [LAZYGEEK]

heard of the book

18:17:52 [LAZYGEEK]

lol

18:19:14 [LAZYGEEK]

You've seen the weeee.swf one right?

18:20:16 [markd2]

of course!

18:20:18 [markd2]

even have a t-shirt

18:20:26 [markd2]

gift from the aD sysadmins when I got the axe

18:20:39 [LAZYGEEK]

lol

18:20:39 [markd2]

gonads and strife

18:20:40 [LAZYGEEK]

who did it?

18:20:43 [talli]

talli (~talli@xd84b5c59.ip.ggn.net) has joined #openacs

18:21:35 [markd2]

www.threebrain.com

18:21:36 [vinod]

vinod has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))

18:22:06 [markd2]

weeee's pretty much the best thing they've done

18:22:18 [markd2]

seen TAles of the Blode?

18:22:18 [paje]

I haven't seen 'TAles', markd2

18:22:25 [markd2]

paje: botsnack

18:22:25 [paje]

:)

18:22:31 [davb]

ok.

18:22:32 [markd2]

http://rathergood.com

18:22:33 [oacs-chump]

Q: http://rathergood.com from markd2

18:22:39 [markd2]

Q:| some rather good flash animations

18:22:39 [oacs-chump]

titled item Q

18:22:55 [markd2]

Q: Includes Tales of the Blode (I ..IV) and A Rather Frightened Boy.

18:22:55 [oacs-chump]

added comment Q1

18:23:04 [LAZYGEEK]

I need to do this at home

18:23:07 [davb]

init.tcl from /usr/lib/tcl8.3 is sourced when the interpreter is started, i think.

18:23:25 [davb]

for some reason you need to resource it to get package require to work. the procs disappear or soemthing

18:23:38 [davb]

if you source it, the variable already exits error occurs.

18:24:22 [talli]

does debian-unstable include KDE3 yet?

18:26:28 [davb]

the main problem is tcl_library, tcl_pkgPath and auto_path etc.. are not defined in the tcl page interpreter

18:27:02 [davb]

whats the command to check if a proc exists?

18:29:38 [talli]

davb: is it ok if i ask again whether you're documenting this stuff? i know the logs are a great place to go for this info as well

18:29:49 [markd2]

markd2 has quit (Remote closed the connection)

18:29:56 [talli]

when you're done with it all, i'll help you scour the logs for the info to compile into a doc

18:30:03 [davb]

I am keeping track if I ever make any progress

18:30:20 [talli]

killer

18:30:25 [talli]

you'll make progress

18:30:40 [talli]

have you asked the dude who maintains tclpro at activestate?

18:31:31 [davb]

oh. tclpro works fine. that is easy.

18:31:36 [talli]

oh

18:31:42 [davb]

but it didn't solve my problem :)

18:31:45 [talli]

what's the issue? getting it to work with AOLServer?

18:31:48 [talli]

oh, whoops

18:31:51 [davb]

heh

18:32:02 [talli]

so what is your problem?

18:32:06 [davb]

no. well, maybe I can use it now that I have narrowed down where the error is occuring.

18:32:17 [davb]

package require doesn't work correctly in aolserver.

18:32:30 [davb]

so there is a hack that works ok in adp pages, but not tcl pages.

18:32:38 [markd2]

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18:32:45 [davb]

I am not sure how to handle it anyway.

18:32:49 [talli]

so you're trying to get tclpro to work in tcl pages?

18:33:08 [davb]

if we have a tclSOAP openacs package, should it be loaded in every interpreter, or just when we need it?

18:33:23 [talli]

ah,ok

18:33:26 [talli]

you're working on tclsoap

18:33:34 [davb]

talli: no to do that is easy. just wrap the code you want to debug in a debug proc.

18:34:10 [talli]

is it possible to use rpm with debian?

18:34:20 [talli]

can i download rpms and set them up in debian with rpm -i?

18:34:41 [davb]

there is supposed to be an apt-front end for rpms

18:34:53 [davb]

i wonder if you can get apt to manage both at the same time?

18:50:14 [yzzyx]

alien?

18:50:32 [yzzyx]

http://packages.debian.org/stable/admin/rpm.html

18:50:32 [oacs-chump]

R: http://packages.debian.org/stable/admin/rpm.html from yzzyx

18:50:43 [vinod]

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19:12:01 [LAZYGEEK]

glorg

19:12:07 [LAZYGEEK]

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19:20:17 [rzolf]

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19:20:33 [rzolf]

is there a way to make pg_dump dump pl/sql functions properly?

19:30:22 [Fridayphylax]

hehe

19:30:50 [talli]

rzolf, you may want to shake or poke rbm or davb

19:30:58 [Fridayphylax]

i think I just volunteered to go to a Yankees game with my boss

19:32:25 [rzolf]

it looks lik -o is my problem.

19:33:04 [davb]

the oids must not be connecting.

19:33:08 [davb]

which pg version?

19:42:16 [til]

rzolf: are you trying to backup an oacs4 install?

19:55:59 [alltelsucks]

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19:56:00 [markd2]

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19:56:33 [alltelsucks]

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19:57:00 [markd2]

* markd2 sighs

19:57:40 [talli]

what is big bad alltell doing to itty-bitty markd2?

19:58:33 [rzolf]

my plpgsql_call_handler was pointing to the wrong place.

19:58:42 [rzolf]

problem solved.

19:58:48 [rzolf]

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19:59:12 [markd2]

talli *sob* awwteww being mean to meeeee!!!!

19:59:26 [markd2]

paje seen rzolf?

19:59:26 [paje]

rzolf was last seen on #openacs 43 seconds ago, saying: problem solved. [Fri Apr 26 13:59:23 2002]

20:02:43 [yzzyx]

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20:06:50 [markd2]

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20:13:02 [vinod]

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20:14:01 [davb]

http://homepage.mac.com/zoe_info/Education5.html

20:14:02 [oacs-chump]

S: http://homepage.mac.com/zoe_info/Education5.html from davb

20:14:10 [davb]

S:|Intertwingle your mail with ZOE

20:14:11 [oacs-chump]

titled item S

20:16:38 [davb]

S: this is cool

20:16:39 [oacs-chump]

added comment S1

20:17:17 [davb]

S: integrate these ideas into openacs webmail, and you will have a killer app. the searching is already in openacs.

20:17:17 [oacs-chump]

added comment S2

20:17:23 [til]

sounds a bit like the vfolder stuff in evolution

20:17:29 [davb]

S: just add brains

20:17:30 [oacs-chump]

added comment S3

20:17:35 [davb]

whats vfolder?

20:17:58 [davb]

this seems to basically index all your mail. then when you find one. it links to it based on other stuff related to it.

20:18:05 [til]

i once heard that the gnome mail client evolution stores the mail in a mysql database

20:18:08 [davb]

more like a google for your mail.

20:18:14 [hazmat]

hazmat has quit (Remote closed the connection)

20:18:20 [davb]

now postgresql would be good. you could openfts it.

20:18:30 [til]

they call it "virtual folder", which basically means you have different categories assigned to your mails

20:18:44 [davb]

nah this is all automagic. no filtering.

20:18:53 [davb]

if indexes all your messages.

20:19:09 [til]

ah i see

20:19:10 [davb]

so if you want al lthe messages about cheese, it already knows which ones they are.

20:19:15 [davb]

I am going to try it later.

20:19:21 [hazmat]

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20:19:40 [til]

* til wonders how many messages about cheese are in his mailbox

20:19:43 [davb]

the cool thing is, its also a smtp server. so you send all your outgoing mail to it, it indexes it and forwards it on.

20:19:56 [davb]

see, how would you find that out today?

20:20:18 [til]

you're right, i desperately need it

20:20:39 [davb]

I want to figure out a way to replicate this with mutt postgresql and openfts.

20:20:59 [davb]

also need to smtp code. and a web server to serve the links etc.

20:21:06 [davb]

any scripting langauage can handle it.

20:21:30 [til]

i think smtp should better be handled by dedicated servers

20:22:07 [davb]

maybe. but this is a personal smtp server. it uses that so you don't have to "import" messages.

20:22:12 [davb]

I could always just use maildir

20:22:26 [til]

i mean that's what mail servers are made for - so i can send a mail with mutt and switch off my workstation immediatley afterwards, and an always connected mailserver takes care of the delivery

20:22:36 [davb]

true

20:22:48 [til]

what about indexing all your mail folders, including the sent folder?

20:22:50 [davb]

so say my version hooks up to a maildir.

20:23:15 [til]

mmmh, maildir

20:24:30 [til]

i'd love to see an oacs-ified webmail that uses maildirs

20:24:55 [talli]

well, the IMAP aolserver module would be awesome to have

20:25:02 [davb]

ah, so just store the index in pg

20:25:05 [talli]

how much more work is needed once that thing is available?

20:25:11 [talli]

just a bit of UI stuff, right?

20:25:52 [til]

i'd rather have the aolserver read the mails directly from the filesystem instead of connecting to an imap server

20:26:06 [til]

it would be much faster

20:29:38 [talli]

even if the imap server is in AOLserveR?

20:29:50 [til]

grep -ir cheese Maildir/

20:29:59 [talli]

wait, i guess it's a module that links to UW imap

20:30:00 [til]

hmm, 5 results, all in the sent folder

20:30:44 [davb]

time to go.

20:30:45 [davb]

bye

20:30:49 [til]

ah, so ns_imap makes aolserver into an imap server? or just a client?

20:30:49 [davb]

davb has quit ()

20:31:07 [talli]

lemme check

20:32:09 [talli]

http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0004Wk&topic_id=OpenACS&topic=11

20:32:09 [oacs-chump]

T: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0004Wk&topic_id=OpenACS&topic=11 from talli

20:32:24 [talli]

til: thread about IMAP and AOLserver that Vlad built

20:32:35 [talli]

i think it's a client as it uses UW IMAP

20:33:06 [til]

i tried to use the demo but it does not work with neither opera nor mozilla

20:33:37 [talli]

no, it doesn't

20:33:45 [talli]

pretty clearly an IE app :(

20:34:28 [til]

the dropdown menu popped up when you hover over one of the links in the title bar, but it is impossible to enter it because it disappears as soon as you leave the area above the link

20:34:54 [til]

silly

20:35:12 [til]

i think it is an imap client only, too

20:35:38 [til]

this is the way that the famous webmail horde/imp works

20:36:10 [til]

easy to setup, but inefficient when the mail is on the same machine

20:41:44 [til]

and with maildir, you could still have an extra imap server serve the same mails in parallel

21:04:28 [rbm]

oom

21:04:46 [talli]

hey rbm

21:04:56 [rbm]

* rbm proceeds to read the backlog

21:09:57 [rbm]

hmmm, was looking for davb

21:12:35 [rbm]

*sighs* Why are graders so stupid?

21:25:46 [jim]

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21:26:15 [jim]

re

21:29:20 [talli]

hey jim

21:29:39 [jim]

what's hew today?

21:29:42 [jim]

new

21:30:33 [talli]

not much

21:41:48 [talli]

jim: http://www.museatech.net/faq/Momentum

21:42:21 [jim]

404

21:43:08 [talli]

you sure?

21:43:10 [talli]

reload

21:43:19 [jim]

yep

21:43:24 [talli]

hmmm...

21:43:39 [jim]

http://www.museatech.net/faq/

21:43:39 [oacs-chump]

U: http://www.museatech.net/faq/ from jim

21:43:42 [talli]

weird

21:43:44 [talli]

i don't

21:43:46 [jim]

that works

21:44:16 [jim]

err, actually it's weird

21:44:31 [talli]

it should be at http://www.museatech.net/faq/momentum

21:44:32 [talli]

try that

21:44:48 [jim]

that works

21:44:56 [talli]

weird

21:45:01 [jim]

i.e., momentum not Momentum

21:45:04 [talli]

if you use a capital M, it breaks

21:45:17 [talli]

i thought URLs weren't case sensitive

21:45:27 [jim]

sites aren't, files are

21:45:28 [yzzyx]

sometimes not.

21:45:36 [yzzyx]

ah

21:45:39 [talli]

maybe in the OACS, they are

21:45:52 [jim]

and plain ol apache

21:46:05 [talli]

oh yeah? bummer

21:46:30 [jim]

(inherited from the unix file system)

21:46:45 [yzzyx]

poisonous case sensitivity :)

21:46:52 [yzzyx]

heritage...

21:47:14 [jim]

maybe if you run apache under windows, you don'[t get case sensitivity

21:47:34 [jim]

but you lose a hell of a lot of other stuff, including stability :)

21:54:06 [Cartesius]

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21:56:05 [rbm]

Hmm, I gan't get to the momentum faq

21:56:30 [rbm]

Oh, nevermind

21:57:40 [talli]

are you using a capital M or a lower case m for momentum?

21:57:42 [jim]

rbm: heyy, I noticed some progress on your app :)

21:57:43 [talli]

it has to be lower case

21:59:17 [rbm]

jim: IRMP3?

21:59:38 [rbm]

My car broke down though :-((((

21:59:46 [jim]

rbm: nm.debian.org/nmlist.shtml

21:59:59 [rbm]

jim: Oh, _that_ application :-)

22:00:01 [jim]

err

22:00:06 [jim]

rbm: nm.debian.org/nmlist.php

22:00:09 [rbm]

jim: Yes, it's coming along.

22:01:01 [jim]

broke down? sheesh

22:01:57 [rbm]

It's not starting

22:02:11 [talli]

rbm: can you get into the fAQ now?

22:04:31 [rbm]

talli: yeaht

22:05:03 [talli]

cool

22:05:07 [talli]

any questions you might add?

22:14:00 [rbm]

talli: Yes. "Are you seriously considering Java as core language?"

22:14:09 [yzzyx]

talli: http://www.museatech.net/faq/ needs to be fixed.

22:14:22 [talli]

i'll clean it up

22:14:26 [talli]

yes, we are

22:14:29 [talli]

everything is open for now

22:14:44 [talli]

java is not a high possibility, but we're not at the stage to rule it out

22:15:07 [rbm]

wo

22:15:13 [rbm]

s/$/w/

22:15:38 [jim]

mom?

22:15:52 [jim]

oops, upside down

22:15:54 [jim]

wow?

22:16:01 [rbm]

jim: yes.

22:16:33 [rbm]

* rbm goes outsied to try to figure out what's wrong with his car.

22:16:42 [rbm]

I'll probably fail though.

22:16:59 [rbm]

I swear that someday I'll take a mechanics course.

22:17:10 [jim]

SICM?

22:17:21 [rbm]

I should just get rich and have a second car available for emergencies

22:19:17 [jim]

anyone use anything special to print out tcl or sql code?

22:19:37 [jim]

rbm: still here?

22:19:37 [paje]

here is, like, what happens: if I don't have anything in rzolf's form

22:19:41 [rbm]

jim: emacs or a2ps

22:19:52 [jim]

rbm: before you go...

22:20:00 [jim]

could you look at

22:20:05 [jim]

jazz theory site

22:20:12 [jim]

jazz improv site

22:20:13 [paje]

i guess jazz improv site is http://12-233-225-152.client.attbi.com/

22:20:30 [jim]

at /key-signatures ?

22:20:34 [talli]

i was denied

22:20:53 [jim]

* jim checks his IP

22:21:17 [rbm]

denied here too

22:21:32 [rbm]

* rbm denies everything

22:21:47 [jim]

ip is still good

22:23:33 [jim]

what kind of deny?

22:24:57 [rbm]

The connection was refused when attempting to connect to...

22:25:09 [jim]

hmm, yeah, I see

22:28:58 [jim2]

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22:29:13 [jim2]

am I back?

22:29:22 [yzzyx]

yes

22:29:32 [jim]

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22:29:54 [jim2]

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22:30:22 [jim]

cool...

22:30:27 [yzzyx]

OT: Is there a good forum to get help with SICP?

22:30:28 [oacs-chump]

Label OT not found.

22:30:32 [jim]

let's try the port forwards

22:34:13 [rbm]

OT?

22:34:58 [jim]

yzzyx: Holly's videos help, usually...

22:35:44 [yzzyx]

off topic

22:35:50 [jim]

given this is the -end- of the semester,,, you're near the end of the course? (I'm presently stuck at ps4 or 5)

22:36:59 [yzzyx]

jim: No, still in chapter 1. I'm studying the book at home.

22:37:11 [jim]

maybe I can help

22:37:38 [jim]

my port forwards are not working...

22:39:00 [yzzyx]

jim: Is it alright to clutter up this channel?

22:40:05 [jim]

I'm not the decider of that :) but maybe we can clutter for a few mins...

22:40:13 [til]

SICP="Society of Invasive Cardiovascular Professionals"?

22:40:31 [jim]

til: yes, I saw that too :P

22:40:44 [til]

seriously, what is sicp?

22:40:47 [til]

* til has no clue

22:41:09 [jim]

the MIT-born course, Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs

22:43:41 [til]

ah

22:43:52 [yzzyx]

jim: Trying to find my list of Q.s

22:44:35 [jim]

til: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/

22:49:15 [jim]

yzzyx: gimme abt 10-15, making coffee

22:51:30 [yzzyx]

jim: I need it. Must have deleted my list!

23:07:52 [jim]

okwell, just start talkin :) refer to passages in the book...

23:08:48 [yzzyx]

Whew. I've found it. That's the prob w/ having multiple a/cs

23:09:01 [jim]

ok...

23:09:04 [yzzyx]

Ex 1.13: I've proved a formula for Fib(n) but haven't managed to show why it's the closest int to theta^n/5^0.5

23:09:25 [jim]

oh sheesh :)

23:09:28 [yzzyx]

Does this proof involve theta^n

23:09:28 [yzzyx]

always being less than 0.5?

23:09:33 [jim]

I didn't do that one :)

23:09:47 [yzzyx]

Let's try another.

23:09:58 [yzzyx]

Does this proof involve theta^n

23:09:59 [yzzyx]

always being less than 0.5?

23:10:06 [yzzyx]

oops

23:10:08 [jim]

wait a sec,

23:10:35 [jim]

well, it seems you're not having trouble with scheme itself...

23:11:02 [jim]

true?

23:11:19 [yzzyx]

scheme's a nice lang. SICP is the problem. That's why they chose Scheme.

23:11:49 [yzzyx]

Ready for another one?

23:11:57 [jim]

let me see if you have some basics... to evaluate a combination, what do you do?

23:13:10 [jim]

I want to go back to the question you had earlier...

23:13:23 [jim]

but let me take this side trip for a moment

23:13:30 [yzzyx]

ol

23:13:32 [yzzyx]

ok

23:13:48 [yzzyx]

substitution model

23:13:55 [jim]

exactly

23:14:00 [yzzyx]

applicative or normal order?

23:14:05 [jim]

app

23:14:35 [yzzyx]

eval subexps

23:14:51 [jim]

which ones? which first?

23:14:52 [yzzyx]

apply operator to operands

23:16:11 [jim]

say you have (something a b c d)

23:16:25 [yzzyx]

eval proc body w/ parameter replaced by corresponding arg.

23:16:41 [yzzyx]

w/ each parameter I meant

23:16:51 [jim]

where something, a, b, c and d are all subexpressions

23:17:11 [jim]

which ones do you evaluate?

23:17:12 [yzzyx]

eval a then b, then c and so on

23:17:24 [yzzyx]

oops

23:17:51 [yzzyx]

decompose something first

23:18:13 [jim]

you have it almost right...

23:18:36 [jim]

the subexprs (including something) are evaluated in ANY order

23:18:55 [jim]

(which has consequences later)

23:19:22 [jim]

are there any exceptions to this (wrt scheme)?

23:19:34 [yzzyx]

the infinite loop of new-if?

23:19:49 [jim]

yes :)

23:19:51 [yzzyx]

define - special form

23:20:16 [jim]

you want me to define that/

23:20:16 [jim]

?

23:20:38 [yzzyx]

No, define is a special form.

23:20:49 [jim]

ok...

23:22:00 [jim]

so the exception is where you have a special form, in which case the arguments are quoted, to be evaluated if the special form says to

23:22:18 [jim]

take if as an example

23:22:46 [jim]

(if condition true false)

23:23:59 [jim]

if says: evaluate condition. if #t, evaluate true and -not- false; if #f, evaluate false and -not- true.

23:24:20 [jim]

one of many special forms that have special rules

23:24:29 [jim]

another special form is let

23:24:41 [barstool]

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23:25:06 [barstool]

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23:25:26 [yzzyx]

Shall we go onto the next q?

23:25:35 [jim]

because applicative order is -any- order, the variables in the let cannot depend on each other

23:26:25 [yzzyx]

OL

23:26:29 [yzzyx]

OK

23:27:37 [jim]

if you want a let variable y to depend on another x, you have to do something like (let ((x something)) (let ((y ...x...)) body))

23:28:12 [jim]

that's a consequence of applicative order being -any- order

23:28:40 [jim]

ok, let me see if I can get my head around the trig thing :)

23:29:01 [yzzyx]

*fingers crossed*

23:29:03 [yzzyx]

1.19: Don't understand why the algorithm for computing the Fibonacci numbers in a logarithmic number of steps works. How does one derive such a thing?

23:29:23 [denshi]

denshi (toddg@linux128.ma.utexas.edu) has joined #openacs

23:29:47 [denshi]

hey all.

23:30:02 [jim]

hiya

23:30:15 [yzzyx]

hello denshi. Do you know SICP?

23:30:42 [denshi]

is that the language with the clicks, whistles, and glottal stops?

23:30:53 [denshi]

yeah, I can get around the consulate.

23:31:55 [yzzyx]

Structure & Interpretation of Computer Programs by Abelson & Sussman

23:32:24 [barstool]

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23:32:55 [yzzyx]

*puzzled*

23:33:04 [denshi]

wtf is a netsplt?

23:33:17 [denshi]

can someone explain irc topology to me?

23:33:20 [jim]

ohh, remember that fib is a recurrance relation

23:34:30 [jim]

fib is, in fact, the simplest recurrance relation, and I think there is a polynomial that will calculate it

23:34:32 [yzzyx]

Yes, but the choice of transform is what I can't understand how to derive.

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23:37:38 [yzzyx]

i.e. fib-iter transforms state vars a & b: a <- a+b, b<- a. Then they pluck a <- bq+aq+ap and b <- bp+aq

23:38:08 [yzzyx]

I know it works, but why?

23:38:57 [barstool]

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23:39:08 [talli]

talli has quit ("Client Exiting")

23:39:13 [yzzyx]

jim: Are we talking about the same problem?

23:39:28 [jim]

I'm looking at it now...

23:40:15 [jim]

maybe better we solve together rather than me telling you what's up, cause I have yet to discover :)

23:40:23 [jim]

I'll get there tho

23:40:30 [yzzyx]

It isn't strictly speaking, posed in 1.19. I just don't understand where they got the formula.

23:40:38 [denshi]

yzzyx, what are you trying to prove?

23:41:27 [yzzyx]

Why a <- bq+aq+ap and b <- bp+aq are correct?

23:44:56 [denshi]

I don't know the nomenclature.

23:48:42 [yzzyx]

See http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html

23:51:56 [denshi]

I've got a copy on the shelf. which chapter?

23:52:21 [yzzyx]

Ex 1.19

23:52:31 [jim]

chapter 1, section 2, ex 1.19

23:53:42 [yzzyx]

I have two/three further questions which aren't mathematical.

23:54:18 [jim]

(T '(1 0)) == `(1 1)

23:54:26 [yzzyx]

Actually, how important is good math'l ability to become a good programmer?

23:54:49 [jim]

yzzyx: not as much as language, especially writing courses

23:54:59 [yzzyx]

Really?

23:55:09 [jim]

wrt programming, math is a specific application

23:55:27 [yzzyx]

Natural or prog'g langs?

23:55:36 [jim]

natural

23:56:01 [jim]

because: (due to A. Holub) Writing computer programs is writing

23:56:14 [yzzyx]

We don't have writing courses at college/uni in the UK for non-English degree students.

23:56:29 [jim]

then sit in :)

23:56:39 [yzzyx]

Well, non-natural lang students.

23:56:47 [yzzyx]

I'd be arrested.

23:56:54 [jim]

really??

23:57:07 [yzzyx]

Well, I've graduated.

23:57:13 [jim]

oic

23:57:27 [yzzyx]

Studied Physics.

23:57:31 [jim]

well, the more you write, the better you get at it

23:57:41 [denshi]

l8r

23:57:43 [denshi]

denshi has quit ("denshi has no reason")

23:58:13 [jim]

consider a community web service site... much trig in that? :)

23:58:21 [yzzyx]

What about declarative and imperative tie-in of math and programming?

23:58:28 [jim]

even if you code it -all- in C!

23:58:43 [yzzyx]

Mind set of logical prob solving?

23:58:54 [jim]

well, sure, there are tie-ins, and it's not totally -exclusive-

23:59:48 [yzzyx]

What are you studying/have studied?

23:59:54 [jim]

but there have been arguments as to who is the better programmer, a math major or a history major