00:32:15 [Global Notice] Hi all. Please congratulate Bdale Garbee, the newly-elected Debian Project Leader. OPN extends its best wishes! :) 01:38:36 paje, FTS? 01:38:36 markd2: wish i knew 01:38:41 what's the FTS system openacs uses? 01:55:55 Homiephylax has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:00:39 talilee (~talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 02:34:19 Homiephylax (nblyumbe@ool-18baa8de.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #openacs 02:34:46 openfts 02:35:02 thanks 02:35:06 np. 02:35:13 openfts.sourceforge.net 02:46:57 markd2 has quit ("wheeeee") 02:52:03 denshi (toddg@linux128.ma.utexas.edu) has joined #openacs 02:59:30 denshi, all the links at ap5.com are broken :( 03:00:39 and I know it is your fault. 03:02:28 yup. 03:02:37 even that guy's email is busted. 03:02:47 darn. 03:02:59 turns out it's a 12-year old paper, with a minor revision in '96. 03:03:15 if I knew how, I would purge it from chump's memory. 03:04:46 oh, i think there is a way. 03:04:51 still is a cool idea. 03:07:30 denshi, comments can be edited or deleted, but not the entire item. 03:09:01 oh well, time to go. goodnight. 03:09:30 night 03:21:54 davb has quit ("Client Exiting") 03:48:23 denshi has quit ("denshi has no reason") 11:31:12 rbm has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 12:41:11 markd2 (~markd2@h166-102-041-183.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 12:53:21 rbm (rmello@fslc.usu.edu) has joined #openacs 13:03:46 til has quit ("[BX] I'm out like a light...") 13:20:01 bah 13:20:01 talilee has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:20:16 Homiephylax is now known as Pissedophylax 13:20:44 Have you ever had a day where you got out of bed and instantly knew you should just go back? 13:20:50 Today.....is one of those days 13:21:03 til (~tils@62.116.19.11) has joined #openacs 13:21:05 yep 13:21:24 usually for me those days involve a bad headache or coughing up lungs 13:21:29 eh 13:21:48 I already called Citibank 13:21:54 Sat in 45 minutes of traffic 13:22:04 and one of our labs Air Conditioning blew up 13:22:24 whoa 13:22:27 you're a disaster area 13:26:43 I know 13:28:33 maybe you should just go back to bed :-) 13:36:27 i should 13:36:31 I really really should 13:36:41 or bring a sleeping bag to the office 13:38:52 heh 13:38:56 I need to just quit work 13:39:09 go herd yaks in Mongolia 13:39:13 just arrange for a net connection 13:39:19 so you can continue to send me cookies 13:39:36 hahaha 13:39:42 yak milk cookies? 13:40:11 better than the goat milk version denshi keeps bringing 13:41:19 oom 13:41:46 Anyone have a FedEx account? 13:41:55 No 13:42:00 s/No/Not me/ 13:42:08 Anyone here has used payment solutions? 13:42:28 e.g. Verisign's PayFlow Pro 13:42:39 heh, does anyone know if a FedEx account is free? 13:43:52 hehe 13:43:58 my browser must accept cookies 13:44:06 Well, it's not my fault Mark keeps stealing them! 13:46:56 robble robble 13:47:02 no wait, that's when I steal hamburgers 13:49:40 lol 14:08:13 markd2 has quit (Read error: 32 (Broken pipe)) 14:15:38 markd2 (~markd2@h166-102-041-183.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 14:16:56 markd2 has quit (Remote closed the connection) 14:16:59 davb (~dave@rrcs-nys-24-97-22-204.biz.rr.com) has joined #openacs 14:17:13 markd2 (~markd2@h166-102-041-183.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 14:17:44 welcome back 14:18:03 Pissedophylax: you just need a credit card. 14:18:14 alltel? 14:18:15 alltel are a bunch of wankers 14:18:27 for a fedex account 14:19:57 So what's bad about the ACS 3.x ecommerce module? 14:20:29 i have 2 14:20:42 oh 14:20:50 Dave, do they charge you to "have" the account 14:20:56 or only if you "use" the account? 14:21:10 I don't ship often 14:21:11 brb 14:21:24 So if I have to pay like 10$+ to "have" the account....I'll go broke 14:23:44 I need to clean my desk 14:24:03 rbm: openacs 3 ecommerce is bad because everything is hard coded in, so you will need to rewrite most of the business logic that is trapped in tcl pages. 14:24:40 all the triggers etc... are a big pain. it might be a good idea to move some of it to pl/pgsql if you can. 14:24:42 where does business logic really belong, for specific case of openacs? 14:24:59 jim: good question. I think in openacs 4, its in stored procedures. 14:25:15 in openacs 3, it is hopelessly intertwined with display code. 14:25:28 well, there are templates in ecommerce. 14:25:56 what is Karl doing these days? 14:26:21 (speaking of templating and its author...) 14:26:39 jim: it is easy to use ecommerce if it does everything exactly the way you want it. if not it is alot of work. i rewrote most of the shopping cart code to calculate shipping in the cart instead of at checkout. 14:27:53 would that same code go to a shipping company and ask for a quote? 14:28:11 nah. i never got the far before the client bailed. 14:28:19 oic 14:28:22 they had fixed shipping per item. 14:28:34 although now UPS and fedex i think have nice APIs 14:28:48 you just need a zip code. 14:29:14 I think you need source, destination and weight 14:30:00 (so for that case that particular company perhaps had a deal with a shipping co, or did shipping inhouse... general case might need to be more flexible 14:30:05 well yeah 14:34:30 I'd like to come uptodate with a calendar project I keep hearing about, a calendar server? 14:34:54 yeah, to provide iCal/vCal data 14:35:02 I think the first thing I'd like to know... is GPL? 14:35:06 alltelsucks (~markd2@h166-102-041-183.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 14:35:22 markd2 has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: alltelsucks!~markd2@h166-102-041-183.ip.alltel.net))) 14:35:32 alltelsucks is now known as markd2 14:35:59 oh, thats a talli question. 14:36:01 or, URL to learn general facts 14:36:02 yes 14:36:04 i suspect so thought. 14:36:28 that is all I know. i think there is a mailing list. 14:36:30 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,3054796~root=hwreviews~mode=flat 14:36:31 A: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,3054796~root=hwreviews~mode=flat from Pissedophylax 14:36:59 A:| The story of one man and his motherboard 14:36:59 titled item A 14:37:22 he's not here; I plan to ask him when he gets here (in the weeks before school ends for summer, I want to at least stay informed, if any more, would contribute code if GPL) 14:37:41 ok 14:37:57 paje, listkeys cal 14:37:57 jim: sorry... 14:38:03 dang 14:38:06 no listkeys 14:38:51 the blootbot project might have it (blootbot is modified and forked infobot) 14:39:01 does paje use postgres? 14:39:28 wait, yes he is here... he's barstool 14:39:39 who's barstool? 14:39:42 talli 14:39:47 ah. 14:40:13 still, I can wait till he wakes up :) 14:41:41 davb: what sort of things are hard coded? 14:41:45 where can I read mroe about the iCal/vCal? 14:41:50 morning rbm 14:42:31 hi jim 14:42:57 jim: Paje uses BDB. 14:43:07 ahh 14:43:12 I think a modified infobot uses PG 14:43:20 rbm: I have to think about it. one thing is the CC approval process/code assumes cybercash which I think is no more? 14:43:27 davb: Yeah. 14:44:33 davb: The reason I ask is because I'm doing this consulting foo in PHP (*sighs*) and I'm using the 3.x code as a guiding point to have an idea of what to do, and I'm using a good chunck to the datamodel. 14:44:46 (the 3.x code for e-commerce) 14:45:16 jim: Talli would know. There are rfc's for them, so some site that has them 14:45:34 ok, cool 14:45:44 Every shopping cart I've looked for PHP uses MySQL. Every one of them. 14:46:02 I tried using that piece of crap, but it's way too much more trouble than it's worth. 14:47:43 rbm: would it be good enuf at least to learn sql? 14:48:01 (if not, pls elaborate) 14:48:03 rbm: I thought I saw before some shopping cart that used postgresql. 14:48:17 jim: What? 14:48:18 also might it not be easier to port an existing cart from mysql to postgresql? 14:48:35 Look at this "feature" of one of the PHP shopping carts: "# Easy to install, using just one table in MySQL" 14:49:21 davb: All the ones I looked that were decent were proprietary and cost a bunch of money. And then I still have to port it? For that money I can write my own. 14:50:03 rbm: ah. 14:50:37 i think the data model is OK actually. 14:55:32 I am using PHPLIB's template class to separate presentation and logic. It's very rudimentary compared to OpenACS' templating engine, but at least I get separate files for php and html 14:55:52 I extented the class so I could have a master template, much like OpenaCS 14:57:02 I've thought about releasing this code once I'm done, and after a little tweaking... however I'm afraid that if I did so, I'd have people pestering me about this project for a long time. 14:58:46 Look at this other PHP shopping cart "feature": "Databases are flat text files and you can edit them through your web browser or with a text editor" 15:00:03 * markd2 laughs 15:01:39 oohhhh 15:01:46 that seems pretty handy. 15:02:18 and these are the people that make fun of postgresql and tcl... 15:02:32 vinod (~vinod@216-164-247-111.s2841.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs 15:02:58 hi everybuddy! 15:03:12 A while ago I looked into porting one of these MySQL shopping carts to PostgreSQL... but it seems that _everybody_ that develops for MySQL is completely and totally clueless about everything, so their code is hideous. 15:03:12 VINOD! 15:03:23 hey vinod 15:03:31 vinod: You'll be at the social next week right? 15:03:54 yup - i'm pretty sure! 15:04:14 Vinodster! 15:04:23 vinod: Excellent, we'll meet each other face to face then. 15:04:27 Who else will be there? 15:04:29 rbm: cool! 15:04:34 barstool is now known as talli 15:04:38 oh well well well 15:04:43 if it isn't vinod 15:04:46 oh, talli was hiding :-) 15:04:46 damn, i was about to sit on that barstool 15:05:11 you're butt isn't holy enough 15:05:57 i'm here 2 min and talli's already talkin bout my butt 15:06:36 markd2: it's going to take me a year to get thru all the new borklog links 15:07:09 vinod, the KGB couldn't wrap you up and through you in siberia? 15:07:09 muahahahaha 15:07:14 they must really be getting pathetic 15:09:23 markd2: wow! dangermouse 15:10:39 heh - didn't see any kgb agents. moscow was awesome though 15:11:00 wonder if dangermouse is out on DVD 15:12:33 talli: ahh, good, you're here 15:12:49 questions about calendar server 15:13:00 AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!H!!!!!!!! 15:13:02 they used to have VHS. 15:13:09 1, is the code free software? 15:13:15 (gpl?) 15:13:40 2, where to learn more about data formats/ 15:13:42 ? 15:13:59 http://www.usu.edu/about/webcam/ 15:14:00 B: http://www.usu.edu/about/webcam/ from rbm 15:14:16 It's snowing, AGAIN!!$!)(*)*)!%$@#!$%@!$#!^ 15:14:34 rbm: its 80 here 15:14:45 wacky weather 15:15:12 It snowed yesterday, about 2-3 inches. By the end of the day everything had melted. 15:15:44 Now it's snowing big flakes (started about 30 mins ago) and the grass is already all white. 15:16:03 he's not hertalli: in the weeks before school ends for summer, I want to at least stay informed about the calendar project, if any more, would contribute code if GPL... after school ends, I;m very interested in doing calendar type stuff, want to present users with their own events calendars 15:16:29 oops, s/^he's not her// 15:16:39 hey jim 15:16:45 morning 15:16:54 sorry 15:16:59 was reading an article in another windo 15:17:01 window 15:17:07 no worries :) 15:17:16 i really like using KDE and having different frames. 15:17:25 but it's hard to keep up with chats! 15:17:31 anyway, there is no code yet 15:17:39 * rbm can't use KDE because it slows his wimpy machine to a crawl 15:17:44 planning stages? 15:17:59 we're still in the process of recruiting volunteers, pulling together the spec, evaluating what's out there, etc 15:18:12 storage compartments? 15:18:12 storage compartments 15:18:12 what are your thoughts as far as license? 15:18:26 we need to set up a loadbalancer in front of the tallibot so he can respond to multiple questions at once 15:18:42 i certainly plan on building GPL code, but there are others that aren't so supportive of it 15:18:51 at worst, it will be dual license, GPL and MPL 15:19:44 sounds pretty good, as long as licensees can't prevent others from GPLing 15:19:49 vinod: the tallibot just needs a few pints of beer from redbones 15:20:01 then he gets seriously scalabale 15:20:07 scalable, too 15:20:17 scale? bale? pale ale. 15:20:18 ahh, it runs on BeerML 15:23:53 talli: so would I be able to store things like appointments/events? 15:24:08 jim: yes, that's the idea 15:24:23 the hope is to build an app that is similar to AOLserver in architecture 15:24:43 can I say to this thing, "here's an object, schedule it for this event" 15:24:43 the core server code written in a C and with tight DB integration 15:24:51 There would be serious interest in such a project 15:24:54 and a high-level scripting language to implement biz logic 15:24:57 err, s/can/will I be able to/ 15:25:16 but haven't you just now reinvented ACS? 15:25:23 (or parts of it?) 15:25:36 well, to a degree, it might be 15:26:12 reason I say that, is I see it could be possible to do the server as an acs service package 15:26:26 in other words you might have to build a packages to re-use data models and so on 15:26:44 jim: that's pretty much exactly what i'd like to avoid 15:26:49 hmm 15:26:56 this thing should be JUST A CALENDAR server 15:27:03 as sendmail is to email 15:27:07 so acs would instead have a client package 15:27:32 oacs != aolserver 15:27:42 and aolserver is usually better than oacs 15:27:55 well, except for TCL 15:28:07 ? 15:28:34 btw, let's take this convo to the IRC channel for the project, which is #momentum 15:28:36 I can't help it... I don't get along with TCL very much :) 15:28:53 the scripting language will be python ;) 15:29:05 cool, I can get with learning that 15:34:40 I think you should use javascript for all your scripting 15:35:05 what? vbscript 15:35:22 that's for the "Enterprise" edition 15:35:40 aigh. in this application, there is a query with a full join on a huge table that is not used for anything... 15:35:45 personally, i prefer Gaelic Script 15:39:15 u r so gaelic 15:44:33 * rbm heads to school 16:06:58 woot 16:07:00 I love newegg 16:07:16 newegg? 16:07:24 www.newegg.com 16:07:34 If you ever need computer parts...buy them from them 16:08:12 first motherboard I got was DOA 16:08:40 So they sent me a 2nd one free 2nd day FedEx...Then the board I really wanted became available, so I re-routed the package to them 16:08:51 Called up today and ordered the one I wanted with 5$ overnight 16:10:01 and that all worked? 16:17:25 yep 16:17:25 vinod has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:28:21 http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/04/17/MN159417.DTL 16:28:22 C: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/04/17/MN159417.DTL from talli 16:28:41 C: Another reason to use PostgreSQL - Oracle fleeces California 16:28:41 added comment C1 16:30:48 food 16:30:56 Pissedophylax is now known as Foodiephylax 16:31:42 hmmm, don't get the pissed on the foodie :) 16:31:57 * jim is hungry too now 16:39:17 oops, time for lunch, now I can relax and hit my head against the wall instead of untangling this mess of an "application" 16:46:13 markd2 has quit ("Bork") 17:16:51 markd2 (~markd2@h166-102-041-128.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 17:20:10 m1d3tz 17:20:14 oops 17:20:20 m1dg3tz 17:22:26 denshi (~chatzilla@adsl-216-62-223-193.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs 17:29:51 Foodiephylax is now known as Workiephylax 18:12:45 abbaJ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:18:32 markd2 is now known as my_ass 18:18:38 my_ass is now known as markd2 18:23:22 paje seen your_ass 18:23:22 I haven't seen 'your_ass', Workiephylax 18:23:27 that's a good thing 18:23:35 paje seen my_ass 18:23:35 I haven't seen 'my_ass', Workiephylax 18:23:51 heh 18:23:53 Too bad, Mark had his ass in your face just a few seconds ago 18:24:24 That's probably why you haven't seen yours paje, marks was blocking out the view 18:24:47 it's HUGE 18:24:58 ROFL 18:25:35 i am very sleepy again 18:25:54 i blame it on lunch 18:27:41 is davb here? 18:27:52 davb: what does it take to get RSS in oacs? 18:28:04 i remember you talking about buildng it in. shouldn't be too bad, right? 18:29:47 talli, its in 18:29:59 gee, that was easy 18:30:00 well what exactly do you want to do with it. 18:30:08 oh great! 18:30:20 i have ETP exporting data as RSS. you can output rss from content. 18:30:29 wow! killer! 18:30:31 you can't suck RSS in to the database and use it though. 18:30:45 what does it take to suck it in? 18:30:48 but it only works for my weblog application. 18:31:04 talli: depends. neophytos was working on something. 18:31:27 you can parse it and stuff it in the database, or store the rss and manipulate it with xslt 18:40:30 http://www.customearpiece.com/ 18:40:31 D: http://www.customearpiece.com/ from markd2 18:40:36 D:| UI suggestions for the new openacs.org 18:40:37 titled item D 18:41:18 D: I am not sure they are using the RGB color space to it's fullest potential 18:41:18 added comment D1 18:43:42 i once managed to get my vomit looking almost as good as that 18:43:55 i would say that it was a little farther northeast on the color wheel, though 18:55:28 davb, what are the components of RSS? 18:58:20 what do you mean by components? what openacs needs? or describe the file format? 18:59:33 what oacs part does it pull together? 19:00:32 the rss-support package basically defines a couple of service contracts. if you package can fulfill those contracts rss-support will create an rss file based on the content you send it. 19:01:01 the rss general is all text based. no xml processing is required. 19:01:02 so the feed can be anything from ETP articles to bug submissions? 19:01:18 sure. if someone writes the service contract. 19:01:23 killer! 19:01:29 how hard is the service contract to write? 19:01:38 it was tricky with ETP because each APP is a content-type and each content-type needs a service contract. 19:01:58 not bad. a few lines of SQL to define it. and tcl to provide the actual content. 19:02:44 can you get to : http://www.thedesignexperience.org/rss/doc/ 19:03:38 very cool! 19:07:43 i was chatting with jim and griznog in the #momentum channel 19:07:58 and griznog brought up the way that exchange does permissioning 19:08:06 he said it uses something called ACL 19:08:20 markd2 has quit ("Bork") 19:08:32 an Access Control List 19:08:40 brb 19:08:53 apparently a very simple interface for addressing permissioning schemes 19:09:18 how he described it, it sounded a lot like RDF 19:09:37 it made me realize that using RDF for momentum might be the right way of implementing permissions 19:09:55 like, 1) i am talli 2) my friend is davb 3) davb can see my calendar 19:10:02 markd2 (~Snak@h166-102-041-128.ip.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 19:10:03 might this work for OACS? 19:11:40 oacs already does something more complex than ACLs. 19:12:02 complex may and may not be better, thopugh 19:12:11 in this case it is. 19:12:16 ok 19:12:28 just to review the history, ACLs are ancient history. 19:12:37 ah, ok 19:12:43 they had them back on MULTICS, if I remember correctly. 19:13:11 and different OSes and apps have implemented the concept differently and at different times. 19:15:10 anyway, there's a conflict between keeping the security of keeping ACLs around for each filesytem/object-tree node, versus space requirements for markd2's cookies and execution time of searching through acls on each node. 19:15:25 maybe someone has a really nice indexes acl system, but I don't know enough to say. 19:16:36 the OACS4 permission system is a neater hack on this, b/c the 'this permission on this distinct object' contains the ACL behaviour, but having the permission apply over trees of users and objects conserves space and time. 19:16:54 ah, ok 19:16:55 ergo, oacs does something better than ACLs. 19:17:00 i see 19:17:02 and mark owes me a cookie. 19:17:54 http://www.w3.org/2000/01/sw/#access 19:17:54 E: http://www.w3.org/2000/01/sw/#access from talli 19:18:08 E: link to articles on using RDF for access to data 19:18:08 added comment E1 19:18:38 I need to set up a signal generator when my cookie supply is regenerated 19:23:07 markd2: that's the holy grail of FREE SOFTWARE!!!! 19:23:10 cookie signaler 19:23:43 LOL 19:23:58 * Workiephylax gives mark a cookie 19:24:02 yay! 19:24:07 * markd2 hands the cookie to denshi 19:24:08 since I owe him one 19:24:18 cookie debt is a horrible thing 19:24:21 * Workiephylax gives mark another cookie 19:24:22 * talli sits in his corner, wondering where all the cookies have gone 19:24:33 you're just a bot 19:24:37 * Workiephylax shakes his head and gives talli a cookie 19:26:38 * talli eats the cookie while glaring at markd2 for insulting his material being 19:28:48 * Workiephylax forgets to tell talli about the poison 19:29:35 oopsie 19:29:46 * talli is not worried about the poison as he is a bot. 19:30:38 * Workiephylax whispers to mark..."He does bring up a valid point..let's chase him with mallots" 19:31:19 * talli , however, is armed with plenty of high powered plasma rockets that are to be used in case of his attempted assination 19:32:04 b0t 19:32:06 hmm.. mallots vs plasma rockets 19:32:10 I think he'd win 19:33:39 oom 19:34:54 hey rbm 19:35:23 rbm is armed with PHP shopping carts 19:35:26