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03:01:38 <talli> hello fellow martians
03:04:31 <markd2> * markd2 beeps
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11:31:10 <til> morning everybody
12:21:18 <jim> hiya
12:29:07 <til> hey jim
12:30:22 <til> have you seen lars pinds oracle tips? basically the same as your script (pinds.com)
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12:39:36 <jim> ahh :) cool :)
12:41:13 <jim> yeah, looks like he had the same concept as I did... I just got it from one of the acs install chapters
12:41:29 <davb> davb (~dave@rrcs-nys-24-97-22-204.biz.rr.com) has joined #openacs
12:41:37 <davb> hello
12:41:37 <paje> hello, davb
12:41:49 <jim> re davb
12:43:20 <jim> til: didn't you suggest to drop the table space with the user (since I created the user and the table space in one shot)?
12:44:38 <til> i think markd said something like: better first do this and then that, but i can't remember exactly
12:46:13 <til> the latest version of your script that you sent me did it the recommended way
12:46:35 <jim> til: ok...
12:46:50 <til> how is your sig drill coming along?
12:47:04 <jim> hmm... I'm still having trouble...
12:48:28 <jim> before going there, I'll probably alter my script to produce files or something like that, or stream the pieces (creating, destroying the user/tblspace) so they can be streamed into svrmgrl
12:49:33 <jim> but, some good news (I hope it stays that way too), I think I found my hardware instability (bad ram) and fixed that
12:49:59 <jim> the computer is behaving well now
12:52:24 <jim> before I can say what the key sig drill problems are, let me get ready
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13:12:19 <jim> ok...
13:13:05 <jim> first, if I have a form with several submit buttons (for diff purposes, oc), how can I set their action url separately?
13:13:57 <jim> -action doesn't seem to work... would I do -html { action url }?
13:15:37 <til> you need to generate seperate <form>s for that
13:15:40 <markd2> can that be done in html?  have buttons in the same form do different actions?
13:15:43 <davb> jim, you actually have seperate forms
13:15:48 <markd2> heh
13:16:21 <markd2> dunno about the form manager, you can also have the forms go to one action, and the ndiscriminate there what button was pushed
13:18:24 <jim> well... what I was originally envisioning... was one of those two-box ("here's a buncha stuff in this one box, click and say "add to other list" to move it over there"
13:19:58 <davb> but stuff can move in more than one direction? so you need to specify which way?
13:20:33 <til> also the two-box thing would do the ordering for the user, which you want to avoid i thought
13:21:12 <jim> til: well, they would only add one at a time, they would do so in order
13:21:32 <jim> if they didn't, it would append in a different order...
13:21:37 <til> ok
13:21:53 <jim> also, I remember the multi dropdown idea
13:23:05 <davb> ok, i still hate VBA
13:23:08 <davb> :)
13:23:31 <jim> MBAs make more money :)
13:24:10 <markd2> yeah.  all that money for playing basketball
13:24:31 <jim> nono, those are MVPs :)
13:25:47 <jim> sheeeeesh.... those acs guys didn't document some of their calls...
13:26:54 <jim> however... major kudos to the fixer of the api browser :)
13:32:58 <rbm> * rbm rubs his eyes
13:33:30 <rbm> jim: you can give different names and values to the submit buttons and then discriminate what to check for according to the values you receive
13:40:29 <davb> brb
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13:51:38 <jim> what args can you give to form create, other than the name of the form?
13:52:31 <jim> the docs say it accepts the (mandatory) name along with optional arguments, but doesn't say anything about them
13:53:09 <jim> I looked at the source... no clue
13:55:37 <rbm> dunno. never used the form manager
14:05:14 <jim> rbm: hmm... I think I need a (re)primer on how information flows with forms...
14:05:39 <markd2> wow.  it's *really* raining here
14:06:19 <rbm> jim: I thought you were using the auto form generation foo from openacs
14:06:50 <markd2> * markd2 likes the robin-egg blue used for the forms
14:07:21 <jim> yeah, but I'm running into lots of problems, and it's likely cause I'm forgetting a bunch of stuff I used to know :)
14:10:00 <davb> yeah! i figured out where to put the parentheses in VB!
14:11:59 <rbm> what's difficult about it?
14:13:08 <markd2> the have to be unbalanced
14:13:37 <davb> heh
14:30:21 <jim> so I'm scrambling to find something that matches what I thought I used to know (like: form variables come into pages via ad_page_contract, and can go out to templates via the same call
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15:00:26 <jim> if I get a submit, how can I get the label of the submitter?
15:00:55 <markd2> don't know off the top of my head
15:01:06 <markd2> one handy tool is to do an ns_set print [ns_getform] in the page somewhere
15:01:16 <markd2> that'll spew all the form data to the server log
15:01:28 <markd2> useful for reverse-engineering form behavior
15:01:52 <jim> ok
15:10:20 <jim> there's some utils in template::util that might convert that set to a onerow
15:17:45 <Psychephylax> hey all
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15:23:44 <markd2> paje, alltel?
15:23:44 <paje> alltel are a bunch of wankers
15:28:03 <davb> hi Psychephylax
15:28:10 <davb> * davb conquers VBA
15:28:17 <markd2> woo hoo
15:30:04 <jim> woo hoo foo too?
15:30:28 <jim> ok, so it's past my bedtime :)
15:30:35 <markd2> heh
15:30:39 <jim> I still wanna get this thing going...
15:31:10 <jim> markd2: your idea was great... I made a quick extension... 
15:31:27 <jim> set display [template::util::set_to_list [ns_getform]]
15:31:58 <jim> ad_page_contract {} -properties {    display:onevalue}
15:32:08 <markd2> awesome
15:32:09 <jim> then in the adp...
15:32:27 <jim> <master> @display@
15:39:35 <Psychephylax> it's freeeeeezing in the headend lab
15:39:38 <Psychephylax> brrrrrrrrrrrrr
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16:09:38 <jim> any idea why tcl upvar needs a # char before the level?
16:09:38 <davb> * davb misses the ns_db api
16:09:48 <davb> jim it doesn't necessarily
16:10:04 <davb> without the # means move up this many levels
16:10:11 <davb> or something like that :)
16:10:17 <jim> ohh
16:10:24 <jim> so it's an absoluter
16:10:26 <davb> yeah
16:10:31 <jim> gotcha
16:10:43 <jim> do I need a \#? 
16:10:51 <jim> so it's not a comment?
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16:17:45 <davb>  you need a # is you want to set the absolute level to go to.
16:18:04 <davb> probably not a good idea though. i think you probably want to go up a certain number of levels
16:18:25 <jim> davb: ok...
16:18:45 <jim> there is this command, template::parse_level....
16:18:59 <jim> it gives either the absolute or relative level
16:19:16 <jim> the usage examples use #
16:19:36 <davb> ah. if you  can safely get the level, i guess its ok to use it :)
16:19:47 <jim> (but template::parse_level is actually a stack)
16:20:19 <davb> I just know how the command works, I don't understand the code that uses it :)
16:20:38 <jim> maybe there's another that grabs the top or something
16:21:16 <jim> they're saying the variables are in invocations of template::parse_adp (I know I'm getting the name wrong)
16:21:50 <jim> so template::parse_level is a stack of level numbers of stack frames where template::parse_adp is running
16:24:40 <davb> argh
16:24:49 <davb> jim, that hurts my head
16:25:01 <davb> VBA does not seem to have a way to check if a query returned any rows
16:25:14 <davb> when you check, it throws a runtime error because there aren't any
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16:29:37 <jim> if you have stack frames like this
16:29:42 <jim> a b c
16:29:44 <jim> -
16:29:46 <jim> d e
16:29:51 <jim> -
16:29:53 <jim> f g h
16:30:19 <jim> and the stack frames are numbered from 1 at the top, and stack grows down,
16:31:14 <jim> say the parse invocations are at 1 and 3, then that variable should contain {3 1}
16:31:35 <davb> ah.
16:31:43 <jim> (and before stack frame 3 is created for that parser, would contain {1})
16:32:48 <jim> so our stack just tells us which frames the parsers are running in (because that's what we're interested in (because the variables we want are there))
16:37:40 <jim> (why do I need all this tho?!?)
16:51:24 <jim> * jim looks at acs-templating/tcl/form-procs.tcl, where he finds "upvar #$level $id:submission submission"...
16:54:26 <davb> jim: i would think the template api should hide all that from you.
16:54:41 <jim> * jim is waiting to not see it :)
16:54:44 <davb> heh
16:55:16 <davb> form handling is another area that don wants to see improved across the toolkit
16:55:16 <jim> tbh, I'm doing some WeirdStuff here...
16:56:04 <jim> temper that with "document what's there" tho :)
16:57:00 <jim> there's a template::adp_level and a template::parse_level
16:58:12 <davb> are those used by the other template procs though?
16:58:22 <jim> yeah, some of them
16:58:39 <davb> but the standard template procs are not doing it for you huh?
16:58:40 <jim> see, I gotta get values into those stack frames
16:58:48 <davb> oh, that seems icky :)
16:59:32 <jim> well, I'm using this werid validatation block that reaches down and puts a value in a var where my tcl is executing (I hope, anyway)
16:59:33 <denshi> denshi (~chatzilla@adsl-216-62-223-193.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs
16:59:43 <jim> so I started out doing uplevel 4
16:59:54 <davb> ok. its getting beyond my skill level :)
16:59:56 <jim> err upvar 4 ... ...
16:59:57 <davb> hi denshi
17:00:09 <denshi> hello
17:00:09 <paje> bonjour, denshi
17:00:13 <jim> I found 4 randomly :)
17:00:17 <davb> ah.
17:00:24 <denshi> oh god, paje has achieved sentience.
17:00:35 <jim> and that is so far in your skill level, it's near the center :)
17:00:37 <denshi> paje, botsnack, and please don't take over the net.
17:00:38 <paje> thanks denshi :)
17:00:54 <davb> jim: i will admit that, i figure most things out randomly :)
17:00:58 <jim> and that?
17:00:58 <paje> i think that is not true
17:01:28 <jim> paje: you said the wrong one :P
17:01:29 <paje> jim: huh?
17:01:33 <davb> that?
17:01:34 <paje> that is not true
17:01:36 <davb> that?
17:01:36 <paje> that is not true
17:01:36 <jim> mmhmm :)
17:01:55 <davb> yeah! my duplicate entry detection code works!
17:04:22 <jim>   # set the stack frame at which the template is being parsed so that
17:04:22 <jim>   # other procedures can reference variables cleanly
17:04:36 <markd2> yay!
17:04:37 <jim>   variable parse_level
17:04:39 <jim>   lappend parse_level [info level]
17:08:38 <jim> now, I'm getting the value in a var...
17:08:52 <jim> I'm getting -really- close now
17:14:27 <ms> davb: where can i find the calls to the comments api for static pages?
17:17:20 <jim> ms: it might be just one call
17:20:43 <davb> ms ?
17:20:59 <davb> the part that adds the comment link to the pages
17:21:05 <ms> yes
17:21:05 <davb> its in tcl/static-pages-procs.tcl
17:21:18 <davb> sp_serve_html_page I think is the proc
17:22:01 <talli> what's the proof that paje is smarter than my tuchus?
17:23:42 <davb> i thought that was one of the things that was so obvious it was accepted without proof
17:24:53 <markd2> axiomatic
17:25:13 <talli> wow. and i have a pretty smart tuchus
17:25:49 <davb> thanks markd2!
17:32:41 <ms> thanks. i believe i have general comments working in a subsite aware manner now.
17:36:48 <davb> wow, thats great!
17:39:12 <ms> it was pretty simple. of course there may be some unforeseen complications.
17:44:24 <davb> sure. I would like to see what you did, but I am really short of time.
17:47:41 <ms> ms has quit (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement)))
17:48:31 <ms__> ms__ (~chatzilla@steigman.ne.client2.attbi.com) has joined #openacs
17:49:26 <ms__> i'll submit a patch to the sdm after i give it a thorough read through.
18:01:26 <davb> * davb loves the "trial by fire" method of learning, it is so efficient
18:02:02 <jim> yeah, but it burns alot if you have to do it for long
18:09:02 <anlater> anlater has quit ("[x]chat")
18:10:47 <davb> jim: i am pretty much flame proof at this point...
18:31:14 <Psychephylax> Hmmm
18:31:22 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax wonders if markd2 is awake
18:31:28 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax waves a cookie in front of his nose
18:31:47 <markd2> * markd2 wakes up
18:31:52 <markd2> and smells the cookies!
18:31:58 <Psychephylax> And eats the cookies!
18:31:58 <talilee> talilee (~talli@xd84b5c59.ip.ggn.net) has joined #openacs
18:32:05 <Psychephylax> Where can I get Oracle client?
18:32:11 <talilee> talilee has left #openacs
18:32:30 <markd2> you can get the CD and install the oracle client-side stuff
18:32:41 <Psychephylax> They don't have the standalone one?
18:32:45 <Psychephylax> I need a specific client too
18:33:08 <Psychephylax> 8.1.7
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19:03:55 <jim> say I have a link that looks like this... <a href=".?var=A#,B#,C#">C#</a>
19:04:21 <jim> should I html-escapize the #s?
19:04:24 <talli> i will not say such a nasty thing!
19:04:45 <jim> -man-, are you ever missing out!
19:04:52 <markd2> I think you'd need to, otherwise the browser might interpret them as the go-to-an-anchor thing
19:05:01 <markd2> you can always try it without.  if it works in IE, it
19:05:05 <markd2> 'll work everywhere
19:05:46 <jim> where is the complete list of character encodings?
19:08:36 <markd2> ns_urlencode will do it.  It'll just whack it to the %XX format
19:09:07 <jim> ooh, cool
19:10:24 <jim> btw...
19:11:00 <jim> aolserver.com broke openacs aolserver api search...
19:11:15 <markd2> ?
19:11:26 <jim> go to acs api browser, 
19:11:36 <jim> put ns_urlencode
19:11:45 <jim> in the bottom one
19:12:00 <markd2> oh yeah, the aolserver guys are really sloppy about maintaining links whever they redesign the site
19:12:15 <davb> jim: there is ad_urlencode or something also.
19:12:55 <jim> even better
19:15:47 <jim> unfortunately it's not taking care of the #
19:18:50 <markd2> oog.  it's thinking # is OK since it's the anchor character.  drat
19:19:42 <jim> yeah
19:20:22 <jim> %xx is hexidecimal?
19:22:28 <jim> hmm, yea, looks that way
19:23:13 <markd2> yep
19:24:51 <jim> ok, so I encode it so it looks like a , separated list all the time...
19:28:42 <davb> jim: do you really need the #'s in there? 
19:31:58 <markd2> it's probablably music related, and needs to be #
19:35:11 <jim> yeah, it's a drill on # key signatures :)
19:35:35 <davb> jim: are you passing # and regular notes in the URL variables? or are they all sharp?
19:35:57 <jim> right now, they're all sharped
19:36:04 <davb> http://www.shrapnelgames.com/gilligames/Space_HoRSE/index.htm
19:36:04 <oacs-chump> A: http://www.shrapnelgames.com/gilligames/Space_HoRSE/index.htm from davb
19:36:16 <davb> A:| New version of M.U.L.E.
19:36:16 <oacs-chump> titled item A
19:36:26 <davb> jim: ah, so they might NOT be...
19:36:28 <markd2> whoa
19:36:50 <markd2> * markd2 knew Dan(i) Bunten
19:37:12 <davb> neat
19:37:25 <markd2> Ozark Softscape was active in the Little Rock apple user's group
19:38:28 <davb> A: inspired by MULE, no official affiliation
19:38:28 <oacs-chump> added comment A1
19:39:29 <jim> but check this out... I viewed the doc source, and the source shows it is encocding it; I was looking at the url at the bottom of the netscape window
19:40:09 <davb> oh, so netscape was unencoding it for you?
19:40:41 <jim> so I'd see the link "correctly", yes
19:41:22 <jim> markd2: so I take all that back, the # was getting encoded :)
19:42:27 <jim> what I'm wondering now, is (how |when |)will I get it decoded
19:42:51 <jim> the , separator is getting decoded too
19:43:06 <jim> err, encoded
19:47:49 <davb> jim: aren't you supposed to use ;
19:48:00 <jim> ;?
19:48:05 <jim> I remember ;
19:48:08 <jim> but where?
19:48:14 <davb> hm
19:48:15 <davb> nm
19:48:22 <davb> i was mistaken :)
19:48:27 <jim> anyways, it just started -working- :)
19:48:41 <davb> ad_page_contract should unencode it for you i think...
19:48:43 <jim> I took all that form crap out :)
19:48:55 <jim> yeah, it seems to be working now
19:49:13 <jim> don't need no stack frame internal thingy no moe
19:49:43 <davb> jim: so you are just createing links with the stuff in there? 
19:50:44 <jim> yep
19:51:41 <jim> but I'm gonna encode the answer in a form that doesn't need 5000 submit buttons :)
19:52:31 <jim> anyone did an lremove or lconcat?
19:53:14 <markd2> not since they've been outlawed in western PA
19:54:02 <jim> they been apparently outlawd in western TCL too
19:54:31 <jim> oh, oops :) 
19:54:40 <jim> lreplace does what I want :)
19:57:51 <talli> markd2: i thought you were an outlaw.
19:57:58 <talli> since when do you listen to the Man?
19:59:22 <jim> now jes you wait a cottin pikin minnit... if marriage were outlawed, only outlaws would have inlaws...
20:12:54 <jim> if do something like this... set my_list [split something "delim"], then I say set my_copy $my_list and last I say lappend my_copy "something", do I also append something to my_list?
20:14:21 <davb> no
20:14:44 <davb> a list is just a text string like this : { item 1} {item 2} etc...
20:15:09 <jim> gotcha... and that's a list containing two lists, yes?
20:18:51 <davb> something like that :)
20:19:07 <davb> yeah it is, becuase item is an item and 1 is an item :)
20:19:44 <jim> oic
20:21:19 <jim> hah! I got the other part to work too!
20:22:08 <jim> click once on a sharp, it adds it to the list... then you can add other sharps in any order you want, but if you click again on any sharp, it goes byebye
20:22:38 <jim> so if I click on A# B# C# A#
20:22:50 <jim> my list will end up being B# C#
20:23:33 <davb> http://www.alistapart.com/stories/doctype/
20:23:34 <oacs-chump> B: http://www.alistapart.com/stories/doctype/ from davb
20:23:46 <davb> B:|Fixing Your Site With the Right DOCTYPE
20:23:46 <oacs-chump> titled item B
20:24:05 <davb> jim: cool!
20:24:44 <jim> I wanted to get that in the forms way, but that was too weird... I could deal with all the stack frame stuff, if I could trust it all the time
20:27:03 <jim> solid as a rock this way
20:27:23 <davb> it should be pretty fast. that is how the new-portal rearranging code works.
20:27:57 <davb> * davb thought of a neat idea
20:28:23 <davb> BLURB: Asking interesting well-informed questions is a way of contributing to open source software
20:28:23 <oacs-chump> C: Asking interesting well-informed questions is a way of contributing to open source software from davb
20:28:47 <talli> davb: that's ridiculous!
20:28:56 <davb> ?
20:29:07 <talli> i find the best way to contribute is with flamebait
20:29:12 <davb> ah
20:29:39 <talli> like, "i heard that oacs developers smell better than zope's. is this true?"
20:30:14 <denshi> it's true.
20:31:53 <talli> and who are you?
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20:33:22 <davb> bye now
20:33:26 <davb> davb has quit ()
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20:51:46 <jim> there :) I should be ready for rbm in a day or so :)
21:16:34 <rbm> hmmm?
21:16:48 <rbm> * rbm tries to make sense of jim's comment
21:17:57 <rbm> I'm making animations with Cinema 4D for my multimedia class...
21:18:08 <rbm> I just made a drop morph into a puttle
21:18:29 <rbm> However, I don't know how to save the animation :-)
21:18:34 <rbm> paje: seen jim?
21:18:35 <paje> jim was last seen on #openacs 26 minutes and 48 seconds ago, saying: there :) I should be ready for rbm in a day or so :) [Mon Apr 15 14:52:26 2002]
21:19:35 <markd2> * markd2 scrolls back looking for goat references
21:23:45 <Psychephylax> Yay
21:23:49 <Psychephylax> time to jet home
21:23:55 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax is now known as Homiephylax
21:23:59 <Homiephylax> Yo
21:24:01 <Homiephylax> :-D
21:24:05 <markd2> gitdown!
21:24:07 <paje> gitfunky
21:24:08 <Homiephylax> * Homiephylax runs away
21:24:21 <Homiephylax> * Homiephylax gitsdownfunky all the way to his car with a big grin
21:38:21 <markd2> are there folks here that use 'screen'?
21:39:33 <denshi> several, but not myself
21:39:52 <markd2> just wondering if it'll auto-suspend if the net connection goes down
21:40:04 <markd2> and if I could re-attach afterwards
21:41:16 <rbm> I use screen
21:41:24 <markd2> yay
21:41:34 <markd2> I saw a demo of it at a linux meeting on saturday
21:42:00 <markd2> just wondering if it's possible to reattach to a running screen session that wasn't detached from cleanly
21:42:03 <rbm> If I lose my connectivity to the machine where screen is running (and that is connected to IRC) I just have to reconnect and reattach
21:42:08 <markd2> sweet,
21:42:12 <rbm> markd2: Yes, it is
21:42:39 <rbm> That's how I never leave the channel (unless I lose connectivity to opn)
21:42:47 <markd2> any security issues leaving a session sitting around?
21:43:03 <markd2> more from an external attack kind of thing
21:43:14 <markd2> if someone logs in as me, there's more things to be worried about =:-O
21:43:18 <rbm> None that I know of.
21:43:20 <denshi> I keep meaning to learn to use screen for multiple sessions.  but instead I just keep buying larger monitors.
21:43:44 <rbm> Yes, of course. I never leave screen sessions with me su'd to root for example
21:43:49 <denshi> I have about 20 xterms open on 5 virtual screens.
21:44:06 <rbm> wow
21:44:08 <markd2> I tend to stuff shells into one emacs
21:44:14 <markd2> but that's not too useful when the link goes dead
21:44:15 <denshi> maybe I could find some kind of unix sysadmin/psychotherapist to help me with this problem.
21:45:38 <denshi> I tried to learn to love emacs-as-a-desktop, but I just can't treat emacs buffers spatially.
21:50:09 <markd2> I treat them by name rather than position
21:50:35 <markd2> with short easy-to-type shortcuts for stuff I really frequently use
21:51:47 <denshi> even so, I haven't figured out how to scope my emacs buffers by project.
21:52:21 <denshi> I can work concurrently on several things provided they all have their own desktop.
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