00:07:18 oom 00:28:58 paje (~paje@slxwy.dorms.usu.edu) has joined #openacs 00:29:10 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.15.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 00:46:35 Psychephylax has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:49:28 anyone here got dotlrn installed successfully? 01:26:55 geilhufe (~dgeilhufe@adsl-64-160-46-98.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #openacs 01:27:40 geilhufe has left #openacs 02:32:55 markd2 has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:32:55 paje has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:32:55 rbm has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:32:55 til has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:32:55 tontsa has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:33:33 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.15.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 02:33:33 paje (~paje@slxwy.dorms.usu.edu) has joined #openacs 02:33:33 rbm (rmello@fslc.usu.edu) has joined #openacs 02:33:33 til (til@port-212-202-128-197.reverse.qsc.de) has joined #openacs 02:33:47 til has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:36:15 rbm has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:36:15 paje has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:36:15 markd2 has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:42:25 [Global Notice] Hi all. We're experiencing difficulties, investigating now. 02:42:31 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.15.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 02:43:54 paje (~paje@slxwy.dorms.usu.edu) has joined #openacs 02:43:54 rbm (rmello@fslc.usu.edu) has joined #openacs 02:45:08 [#openacs] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog 02:46:22 til (til@port-212-202-128-197.reverse.qsc.de) has joined #openacs 02:51:23 tontsa (tontsa@livingfor.net) has joined #openacs 02:52:45 [Global Notice] Hi all. We appear to have experienced bandwidth limitation on one of our primary hubs. Core servers have been rerouted. Some additional rerouting will probably be necessary. Apologies for the inconvenience. 02:56:58 [Global Notice] Hi all. We're experiencing packet loss to a primary hub and will be rerouting Oz. Please bear with us. 03:03:04 markd2 has quit ("wheeeee") 03:04:19 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.15.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 03:12:02 til: key signature is an ordering of accidentals which, when applied to an otherwise all-white-key C major scale, will produce a major scale on a particular note. The key signature is nil for C major, contains Bb for F major and F# for G major. 03:13:41 (with a major scale being a specific set of wholestep/halfstep patterns starting from the above-mentioned "particular note", and for the 3 examples mentioned are C, F and G) 03:14:08 thanks jim ... in some dust gathering parts of my brain i have some memories of that ... but i never knew the english vocabulary for it 03:15:24 hearing and seeing intervals is the first skill you need as an improviser... for seeing them on the staff, you need to know your key signatures pretty athleticaly 03:17:22 (for doing functional harmony assignments and checking the parts, the closer the ability is to Olympian, the better) 03:17:37 and it's not hard to get to that point 03:18:56 not with the help of jim's unique upcoming online learning resource i guess ;) 03:19:43 i wish i would be practicing more ... err - at all i mean 03:20:48 heh, I know how that goes... you could find a playing situation, lightweight schedule and levelwise... maybe a beginning theory and improv course 03:24:16 * til should 03:24:20 I had a key signature drill basically functioning when the hd on the site went down... 03:24:28 :-( 03:24:49 replaced the hd, I'm almost ready to start building the key signature drill 03:26:10 is it web-based? 03:26:15 or a program you download and run? 03:26:16 yeah 03:26:22 no, web 03:26:40 I wrote it in tcl 03:26:47 cool 03:26:48 cool 03:27:10 using the same technology as the fishtank abstractions in PS1 03:27:35 then I stuck em in a multirow :) 03:28:11 took me 2 hours to get that far; should take me an hour or less to get there... 03:28:29 but I wanted to figure a way to use the database with it 03:28:55 that way you can extend it to the liturgical and grecian modes 03:28:56 let's get that in the oacs distribution - acs-keysig-drill-0.1d 03:30:37 liturgical? major/minor? grecian = ionian, etc 03:31:00 all that plus chords that come from a key 03:34:14 from the wouldnt-it-be-cool department: generating chords or intervals on the server, and have the user listen to them and decide what they are 03:35:53 there must be some easy way to generate .wav or .mp3 files with a script 03:36:36 my theory teacher (-total- monster; amazing teacher), retired a few years back, started teaching at a nearby community college nearly 30-35 years ago, taught for some 25 years, created many of the courses including an amazing ear training course 03:37:31 who was this? 03:37:57 Elvo S. D'Amante 03:38:27 he has 2 books at Amazon, "All About Chords" and "Fundamentals of Music" 03:39:13 * markd2 adds it to the to-get list 03:39:27 his ear training book comes in three volumes, the first one nearing production... 03:39:31 pretty deep musical stuff 03:40:55 yes, the chord book does triads, 4-level chords (with 7ths or 6ths), 7-level (7th chords with 9ths, 11ths and 13ths) 03:41:06 an ear training course would really make sense to put on the web i guess, if done properly 03:41:36 I have a chords app in my visor. It's nice. 03:41:59 the David Burge one is a couple of CDs 03:41:59 davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 03:42:13 shh! davb arrived! 03:42:21 * markd2 hides the goat 03:42:29 and doesn't stop there, he describes progressions, substitute chords and even touches on voice leading across changes 03:42:36 argh, I thought I snuck in quietly 03:44:01 is til around? 03:44:26 * til still hides 03:45:11 oh no, the curtain does not cover my feet 03:45:38 * markd2 de-feets til 03:46:05 til: just wanted to see where you were on dotlrn, to compare notes 03:47:14 * til thanks markd2 very much 03:48:19 davb: some holes in the wall from banging against it with my head, not much more progress with dotlrn 03:48:47 I got it installed, but it crashes when I try to go to the "my files" page. 03:49:16 i see the same as michael posted in that thread - empty community pages 03:49:35 ah. 03:49:50 can't check for "my files" because i shut down oracle already. it's just too much for my laptop 03:50:12 np:) 03:50:20 is your installation online somewher and could i look at it by any chance? 03:50:32 in a minute it will be... 03:51:12 thanks 03:53:48 don't click "my files" :) 03:54:43 ... must resist ... 03:54:47 click it!!!! 03:54:48 - /dotlrn/ 03:55:17 does it crash aolserver? 03:55:55 yes. segfaults, all threads die. 03:56:09 wow, impressive 03:56:24 you are in 03:56:56 wohooo ... thanks davb! 03:57:01 uhoh 03:57:09 communities also crashes the server 03:57:18 argh 03:57:28 it uses the my files on the default portal apparently. 03:57:53 i just clicked on "Calendar" ... sorry 03:58:00 nope, calendar is safe. 03:58:18 it takes forever to startup, even with 512mb ram 03:58:31 because of the extensive logging and my slow disk. 03:58:35 ah, ok 03:59:42 ora8.c:3682:ora_tcl_command: error in `OCIStmtPrepare ()': ORA-01740: missing double quote in identifier 03:59:48 it'd be great if they would put up a demo site 03:59:49 on customize this portal for a community. 03:59:55 maybe they can't 04:00:10 because of their client? maybe, yes 04:00:12 *sigh* 04:00:46 no I meant because it doesn't quite work. 04:00:50 all this is GPL... 04:01:24 but maybe they are uncomfortable with their client seeing every error live 04:01:35 well, it's both then 04:01:40 ah, that I could understand. 04:02:31 davb: authorize me 04:04:33 davb: ?? 04:04:36 paje: twack davb 04:04:36 rbm: what? 04:04:40 paje: again! 04:04:40 * paje spanks talli 04:05:01 rbm: sorry 04:05:31 all set 04:05:38 tracking down the missing/extra quote 04:06:04 wasnt there a posting about missing quotes in the dotlrn thread? 04:06:18 probably. maybe I need to update 04:07:07 " The server has encountered an internal server error. The error has been logged and will be investigated by our system programmers." 04:07:37 let me restart the server 04:07:55 call all your system programmers and investigate the error! 04:08:10 argh. 04:08:19 the cvs is not updating correcly. 04:13:19 server is restarted 04:14:39 argh crashed it again 04:15:12 i was clicking on forward on the calendar portlet 04:15:24 nope, i think it was me again. 04:15:28 and always returned to the same date 04:15:35 oh, that is not good either. 04:16:01 also - where is my recurrent date that i entered? i think it did not make it into the db 04:17:42 ok, I stuck something up there, right now key signatures and intervals have nothing on them; I'll permisssion them out at the site map... but Chord Chorner has a site with an etp containing some stuff I wrote about 8 or 9 years ago 04:18:08 what was the url again? 04:18:23 12.233.187.5:9000 04:19:04 argh, i crashed mozilla! 04:19:06 and emacs 04:19:17 paje: davb is also | dangerous 04:19:18 okay, markd2. 04:19:39 davb? 04:19:40 well, davb is dangerous 04:19:42 davb? 04:19:42 davb is sad that EA is discontinuing Majestic. Of course, I would be more sad if I had ever paid for it. 04:19:45 davb? 04:19:46 it has been said that davb is dangerous 04:19:47 davb: let me guess - oracle is running on the same machine? 04:20:20 ack, did it again 04:20:32 til: yes. 04:20:36 this sucks 04:20:55 at least it didn't crash aolserver 04:21:08 but it using up all my ram. 04:21:54 ok, I am going to wait until tomorrow to fool with it. 04:24:35 markd2: if you're looking at that thing, you'll notice you can see /doc and /api-doc... I put you and til in the Techies group, so if it happens to be handy to read docs from there, go for it 04:25:04 coolio 04:25:15 my brain is too tired tonight to think about it much tonight 04:26:41 does the etp from 4.5 have general comments on pages? I decided to do the text/plain rendering using

 (stick stuff here)

04:27:20 not out of the box. there is a etp-gc-procs.tcl that you can add to the info file. 04:28:52 gotta go... 04:28:54 davb has quit ("Client Exiting") 04:28:57 which begins a conversation that I recall we had a month ago... I'll research and deal 04:31:45 markd2: the stuff I wrote is fairly dense, and assumes you understand intervals fairly well... 04:32:04 and my brain is jello right now 04:32:27 ok, so if you read it sometime and you have any questions, fire away 04:35:44 will do! 04:35:44 thanks 05:14:58 markd2 has quit ("wheeeee") 06:11:48 talli (~talli@188.muka.lasv.snfccafj.dsl.att.net) has joined #openacs 08:03:21 jkhong (~jkhong@202.151.216.94) has joined #openacs 08:26:48 jkhong has quit ("Client Exiting") 12:09:59 jim has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:28:45 davb (~dave@rrcs-nys-24-97-22-204.biz.rr.com) has joined #openacs 13:33:14 hello 13:36:58 [#openacs] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog 14:18:02 abbaJ (~jabba@adsl-64-123-15-107.dsl.austtx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs 14:45:07 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.181.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 14:54:17 markd2 has quit ("wheeeee") 15:01:35 argh 15:01:39 more crashing 15:04:03 dotlrn needs weblogs! 15:07:06 k> 'lo morb 15:07:06 i think i'm getting 15:07:08 argh 15:07:19 http://www.emergentmusic.com/index.jsp 15:07:19 A: http://www.emergentmusic.com/index.jsp from davb 15:07:25 A:|Emergent Music 15:07:25 titled item A 15:22:24 morning all 15:22:37 Jackal (~chatzilla@ECOLOGY.MIT.EDU) has joined #openacs 15:23:12 can anybody point me to a simple ns_xml script/tutorial? 15:23:23 hey guys 15:24:10 - http://www.fifthgate.org/articles/aolserver/xml/ns_xml_doc.html 15:24:36 shows at the end how to parse an rss file and output some html 15:25:15 davb: I'm getting sytax errors with comands like [ns_xml node stats $node_id] 15:25:25 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.139.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 15:26:20 however, that is the notation given in the fifthdate article 15:26:30 please paste in the exact error message. otherwise we really can't help you. 15:27:22 unknown command 15:27:29 while executing 15:27:34 "ns_xml doc stats $doc_id" 15:27:56 check the log, looks like nsxml is not loading. you should see an error message if it could not load nsxml.so 15:28:29 nsxml is loading and on the previous line, I have 15:28:37 set doc_id [ns_xml parse $xml_doc] 15:28:52 which doesn't give an error alone 15:37:16 I suspect the article is wrong :) 15:37:24 yeah me too 15:37:28 I am not even sure the stats command is implemented. 15:37:42 so where is the "official" documentation? 15:37:55 markd2: could me crash come from libpthread somewhere do you think? 15:38:01 Jackal: ns_xml.c :) 15:38:07 it sucks when your just starting out.. 15:38:11 LOL :) 15:38:18 davb: it might. ya never know 15:38:18 oh dear 15:38:49 markd2: ok. I see way back in the backtrace where it starts a thread, then it just does tcl stuff until it crashes. 15:39:10 Jackal: I should write a doc for ns_xml one of these days. 15:39:15 in that case, the crash will be in the tcl stuff somewhere 15:39:33 ok. weird. I have the same aolserver as everyone else. argh! 15:39:50 can you put the stack trace(s) somewhere? 15:39:54 would be helpful to us n00bs 15:40:15 markd2: sure, thanks!! 15:43:48 that's a really deep stack 15:43:51 try upping your stacksize 15:44:01 well what I did was just fool around with it. rss is a good think to start with. grab an rss file, and take it apart and stuff the data into some tcl lists, then output it as 15:44:04 doh! 15:44:15 output it as HTML 15:44:25 actually hang on, I have code that does that I can send you... 15:45:15 it was 500000, I doubled it. 15:46:19 it's also nuking in regex stuff - maybe see what regexp is involve,d and the data it's working on 15:46:35 yeah! 15:46:42 markd2 is a genius 15:46:55 markd2++ 15:47:02 markd2 cookie 15:47:08 woo hoo! 15:47:11 is the stack waht it was? 15:47:15 yes. 15:47:25 now I get a "you have found a bug in our code" message! 15:47:43 I better let everyone know that the stacks can be huge. 15:47:50 ETP must have been doing the same thing. 15:48:40 Jackal: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/rss-nsd.tar.gz has some sample code and a micro doc telling what it does. 15:49:15 david: Thanks - I'll check that out 15:49:18 argh, 15:49:45 shit, with the stack at 1,000,000 i still crash the community page. 15:50:41 wait, there are TWO stacksize params 15:50:46 ns/parameters and ns/threads 15:51:02 ns/threads was only 128k 15:51:14 heh 15:51:17 ok,get this. 15:51:26 the one I changed was commented out, BUT it worked anyway. 15:51:31 I am going insane 15:51:49 maybe it is not stacksize. 15:52:39 of my files still works 15:52:50 yeah community works too! 15:52:58 * davb is dumb 15:53:14 stacksize 500000 is enough 15:54:34 til: its working great. come on in! 15:55:15 this is pretty cool, but need UI work. 15:56:03 now to get this working will talli's calender server 15:57:10 hmmm. have to make sure the openacs docs etc mention that stacksize issue. 15:58:36 yeah, its not in the sample config files. 16:00:29 * davb now notices he should have checked the config file first, instead of learning C to diagnose a little server problem 16:01:13 heh 16:01:23 the stacksize thing *always* throws me until I see a huge backtrace 16:01:47 this is the sample XML string that I'm using: 16:01:49 this is atest of xml 16:02:44 ok. 16:02:50 When I get the node children, I get back "this is a test of xml 16:02:57 markd2 has quit ("wheeeee") 16:03:07 how can I get the content of 16:03:24 I forget :) let me check... 16:03:33 if I get children again (on the original child) i get an error 16:03:56 hmmmm 16:04:16 that should still work. 16:04:50 what you need to do it walk down the tree.. (great metaphors huh?) until you get to blind. 16:05:06 get the root node. 16:05:20 first. get the doc_id 16:05:25 then get the root node of that. 16:05:44 set node_id [ns_xml doc root $doc_id] 16:05:45 get the first child of the root node, that is the first tag after the 16:06:05 set children_list [ns_xml node children $node_id] 16:06:13 set children_list [ns_xml node children $children_list] 16:06:26 can't do that. 16:06:30 thats what I understand by "walking down the tree" 16:06:32 por que? 16:06:34 $children list is a list 16:06:50 you need [lindex 0 $children_list] 16:06:59 oh - so how do I get a node_id from a child? 16:07:10 oh ic - its a list of nodes? 16:07:13 yes 16:07:27 thank you very much 16:07:30 the text between the tags is also a node. 16:07:34 this is very helpful 16:07:37 np. 16:07:53 dude: 16:08:08 in that link I mentioned, I have an some ns_xml help procs like first_child, get_node_by_name etc... 16:08:08 how do you get anywork done answering all these questions? 16:08:18 yeah - i saw those 16:08:20 keeps my brain sharp 16:08:21 :) 16:08:30 i'm trying to wokr from the ground up 16:08:34 ok. 16:08:38 write my own helper procs 16:08:44 good idea. 16:09:08 maybe one day I'll learn all this crap 16:09:10 :) 16:09:11 we are also working on an update to ns_xml that adds alot of new coomands for manipulating the tree, deleting nodes, etc. 16:09:11 okay, davb. 16:09:20 we 16:09:22 we? 16:09:22 we are almost done though. or working on an update to ns_xml that adds alot of new coomands for manipulating the tree, deleting nodes, etc. 16:09:25 heh 16:09:29 paje: forget we 16:09:30 davb: I forgot we 16:09:53 lol 16:10:20 talli: you around? 16:13:51 set children_list [ns_xml node children $node_id] 16:14:01 set child_node [lindex 0 $children_list] 16:14:09 thats the first child. 16:14:34 do a foreach to cycle through the entire list. 16:15:04 i get an error from just that : 16:15:11 bad index "n1": must be integer or end?-integer? 16:15:21 argh 16:15:34 lindex $children_list 0 16:15:36 sorry. 16:15:51 oh - ok - I probably should have know that 16:16:16 http://www.xwt.org 16:16:16 B: http://www.xwt.org from davb 16:16:20 B:|XWT 16:16:20 titled item B 16:16:23 tahanks that worked 16:16:39 B:|XWT - XML Windowing Toolkit 16:16:39 titled item B 16:16:48 B: for deploying apps across the web 16:16:48 commented item B 16:16:57 argh. That's crazy. 16:17:07 B: needs a java applet or active X :( 16:17:07 commented item B 16:18:10 for the stuff I do, distributing a client that runs in Mozilla is a better choice 16:18:38 You could install the Tcl plugin and run Tk apps just like java apps 16:19:06 true. 16:19:30 kinda a pain if you try to dl a tcl file to read though :) usually they display as text. 16:19:36 except that the Tcl app would have 20 times less lines of code and be 10 times faster 16:20:12 http://www.softpanorama.org/People/Ousterhout/Threads/sld001.htm 16:20:13 C: http://www.softpanorama.org/People/Ousterhout/Threads/sld001.htm from rbm 16:20:44 C:|Why Threads are a Bad Idea (for most purposes) - by John Ousterhout 16:20:44 titled item C 16:21:14 That's for talli. In his latest Momentum e-mail he mentioned that momentum must be fast, and therefore multithreaded 16:21:24 Fast != multithreaded for most cases 16:21:42 and multithreaded != fast for most cases either 16:22:04 But Multithreaded == Much harder to program in ALL cases 16:23:39 Another problem with multithreaded apps is that if you crash a thread you crash the app. In a process-based app, you crash a child process and that's it. The parent process lives on. 16:23:47 rbm: if it is a server and has to handle multiple simultaneous connections it will need threads? 16:23:54 ie: aolserver 16:23:58 davb: Of course not. Look at PostgreSQL. 16:24:07 really? 16:24:16 that sames thread are ok for a database :) 16:24:21 s/sames/says 16:24:45 davb: AOLserver has other reasons why it went multithreaded, especifically sharing of data and database connections. 16:24:55 ok. 16:24:59 * davb learns something new 16:25:16 postgresql just uses multiple processes (backends)? 16:25:19 Yes. 16:25:34 It's A LOT easier to program using processes. 16:26:03 ok. 16:26:11 The PG team has answered the question "MySQL is multithreaded, PostgreSQL isn't, therefore MySQL is better?" many times. 16:26:28 It's a common misconception. 16:26:35 Apparently, noone understands the difference. 16:26:39 like me :) 16:27:20 rbm: dotlrn is running on my machine again, and not crashing if you want to look around. 16:27:24 http://www.ca.postgresql.org/~petere/comparison.html 16:27:24 D: http://www.ca.postgresql.org/~petere/comparison.html from rbm 16:27:36 D:| 16:27:36 titled item D 16:27:56 D:| A Response to the Featurewise Comparison of MySQL and PostgreSQL - by Peter Eisentraut 16:27:56 titled item D 16:28:20 people who care about their data use Postgresql. 16:28:31 You'll see a lot of MySQL users doing contortions to make sure mysqld stays up after it crashes. 16:28:54 yeah, mysql is great and fast, until it falls flat on its face. 16:28:56 Because when a thread crashes, mysqld crashes. In PostgreSQL, a backend crashes and the client just has to make the connection again 16:32:25 On Linux for example, the overhead of creating a thread is basically the same as creating a child process, because on Linux threads _are_ lightweight processes. 16:33:01 so if a process is easier to program, go ahead and use it. 16:33:30 If an application is not a perfect match for threads, don't use them. They ain't worth the effort. 16:33:50 dotlrn works pretty good now. and its pretty fast on my AMD 950 with 512mb RAM running oracle. 16:33:52 For most cases processes will be better, easier and just as fast. 16:34:02 Athlon? 16:34:17 yeah 16:34:35