00:02:26 talli (~talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 00:02:34 rbm: dotGNU rocks! 00:03:36 rbm, i think i was saying it earlier, but i think OACS should get involved iwth the dotgnu people 00:03:55 at least to share some of the authentication and identity protocols they're coming up with 00:04:31 we're kind of a compliment to the phpgroupware folks (but i think our system is a bit more robust). docwolf, wanna fight about that? 00:08:48 paje, seen rbm 00:08:48 rbm was last seen on #openacs 39 minutes and 57 seconds ago, saying: Hmm, the dotGNU folks seem to be doing a good job [Mon Mar 11 16:30:52 2002] 00:09:00 paje, spank markd2 00:09:00 talli: what? 00:09:07 paje learn markd2 00:09:07 talli: huh? 00:09:14 shazam! 00:09:33 paje, do you know that markd2 is slug butcher? 00:09:34 talli: bugger all, i dunno 00:09:38 hey rbm 00:09:46 dotgnu is pretty cool. mono gets all the pub, but pnet is cooler 00:10:09 They seem to be doing a great job down there. And it's cool that you can run .NET apps on it. 00:10:16 yeah 00:10:24 and it's pretty much one guy coding pnet 00:10:28 And it's all free software, no hidden catches. 00:10:30 and it's all on linux 00:10:32 yeah 00:11:57 I like the license of pnetlib. GPL with linking exception. That's totally fair, while still allowing you to do proprietary software if you'd like. 00:12:14 is that different from the LGPL? 00:12:18 yep 00:12:24 hmm.. how so? 00:13:01 The LGPL is basically a BSD license (AFAIK). It allows you to take a lib and make modifications to it without disclosure of changes to the lib. 00:13:14 (upon redistribution) 00:13:36 really 00:13:37 ? 00:13:38 weird 00:14:04 The "GPL with linking exception" says that you can link a program to that library and make it proprietary, not problem. But if you make changes to the library itself, then you have to disclose those changes if you're going to redistribute them. 00:14:17 i see 00:14:40 Which is only fair. 00:14:55 so the part of Mono that has people bothered is that the libraries are being released under the MIT/X11 license, right? 00:15:13 There are other concerns with mono as well 00:16:07 it seems that the GPL+linking was written expressly so that MS couldn't steal the code 00:17:34 * shagster does a cvs update of the beta and see if he can verify and fix some bugs 00:17:42 hey shagster 00:17:45 how was teh lasagna? 00:17:51 Very good... 00:18:01 did you make it? 00:18:18 Ha! 00:18:25 :) 00:18:34 Girlfriend did 00:18:39 http://www.rons.net.cn/english/FSM/issue02 00:18:40 A: http://www.rons.net.cn/english/FSM/issue02 from talli 00:18:51 talli: I was just reading that. 00:18:53 A: Issue 2 of Free Software Magazine 00:18:53 commented item A 00:19:05 http://www.rons.net.cn/english/FSM/ISSUE02/postgresqlhistory.pdf 00:19:05 B: http://www.rons.net.cn/english/FSM/ISSUE02/postgresqlhistory.pdf from talli 00:19:14 talli: I think I'll write to them and ask if they would like an OpenACS 4article 00:19:18 B: History of PostgreSQL by Bruce Momjian 00:19:18 commented item B 00:19:24 rbm: that would be great! 00:19:28 i'd be happy to help 00:19:40 * rbm ^5's talli 00:19:42 i think that we should submit a proposal to dotGNU to add OACS to the list of projects 00:20:11 they're doing a lot of the things we're doing, and also some compliment 00:20:15 compliments 00:22:53 indeed 00:23:22 B: "It was amazing to see how many bugs were fixed with one line of C code" 00:23:22 commented item B 00:26:03 crap, bummer, *sighs* 00:26:24 Looks like I'll have to return my scanner. Work doesn't want to pay for it at they had promised. 00:26:31 s/at/as/ 00:26:44 I need to find a better or better-paying job. 00:28:33 i'm reading the article by the guy that is writing pnet 00:28:40 about what it takes to write a compiler 00:29:03 and i'm glad that the lead of the OACS is a guy that's been writing compilers for at least 20 years 00:29:15 a web database system must be a joke for donb 00:30:52 he said he got burned out of it. 00:31:00 i'm sure he did 00:31:07 I wonder if donb is/was involved in the "Portland Compilers" 00:31:25 They're famous in the cluster world 00:31:30 i think his company was called Oregan Software 00:31:39 right? 00:32:28 * rbm goes home 00:32:34 bb later 00:32:34 later 00:35:36 davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 00:35:42 yo davb 00:35:52 howdy 00:36:06 ugh. why is everything in FSM a pdf? 00:50:33 hazmat is now known as buglord 01:01:15 buglord is now known as hazmat 01:12:29 docwolf is now known as NuttyMcS 01:13:20 ah, so NuttyMcS, you've returned 01:20:11 anybody wanna play backgammon 01:20:13 ? 01:20:57 i'm just kidding 01:21:05 anyone wanna roll some bones? 01:23:27 Nah, I've actually got to finish some client code *grr* 01:30:45 aw, nuts 01:49:18 That is about what they pay me in.... 01:53:34 talli: I _love_ backgammon. 01:54:22 talli: wanna play bubble bobble? 01:55:11 paje: seen talli? 01:55:11 talli was last seen on #openacs 34 minutes and 6 seconds ago, saying: anyone wanna roll some bones? [Mon Mar 11 18:23:06 2002] 02:12:50 bbiab 02:58:38 paje, seen rbm? 02:58:39 rbm was last seen on #openacs 45 minutes and 49 seconds ago, saying: bbiab [Mon Mar 11 19:14:51 2002] 02:58:55 rbm, you don't want to play me in backgammon 02:58:58 i will destroy you 02:59:07 as NuttyMcS, might say, HULK SMASH 02:59:28 talli: I haven't played gammon in years, but I'd like to get back to it. 02:59:39 go sign up over at ola's site! 03:00:01 btw, those two lights out of the WTC are pretty fat 03:00:05 I can't remember the URL though :( 03:00:06 i mean their big 03:00:20 what lights? 03:01:41 http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&u=/ap/20020312/ap_on_re_us/attacks_six_months_20 03:01:41 C: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&u=/ap/20020312/ap_on_re_us/attacks_six_months_20 from talli 03:02:21 * rbm tries to fix a screwed-up-by-virus hard drive from a friend 03:02:24 there is some seriously perverted stuff going on in the jabber foundation mailing list 03:02:26 bbl 03:03:26 the jabber project is a bit of a mess, AFAICS 03:03:37 that is too bad. It has alot of potential. 03:03:45 it does 03:03:51 but it's so stretched out 03:03:59 there's no one central location for info 03:04:06 cool. that sounds like that light project two artists suggested way back 03:07:39 darn, the backgammon appears to be unavailable :( 03:12:49 davb has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 03:12:49 talli has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 03:12:49 andyn has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 03:12:49 paje has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 03:12:49 hazmat has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 03:12:49 NuttyMcS has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 03:12:49 til has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 03:12:49 chump has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 03:12:49 djg has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 03:13:09 talli (~talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #OpenACS 03:13:09 andyn (~andy@12-254-190-230.client.attbi.com) has joined #OpenACS 03:13:09 NuttyMcS (~docwolf@adsl-34-74-51.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #OpenACS 03:13:09 til (til@port-212-202-128-197.reverse.qsc.de) has joined #OpenACS 03:13:09 paje (~paje@slxwy.dorms.usu.edu) has joined #OpenACS 03:13:09 hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #OpenACS 03:13:09 djg (~dirk@212.84.246.68) has joined #OpenACS 03:13:09 chump (~chump@alb-24-58-160-41.nycap.rr.com) has joined #OpenACS 03:13:15 shagster has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:13:19 [#OpenACS] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog 03:46:34 rbm, you there? 03:50:04 if you show up, rbm, i wanted to return to that convo from the morning about the features box 03:50:14 rather, about the new oacs.org 03:52:52 * rbm is back 03:52:58 hey 03:53:09 * rbm makes a mental note to _nevermore_ help anybody with windows problems 03:53:20 whoops 03:53:23 that ugly, huh? 03:54:11 Well, now the whole mobo won't bootstrap nor give me any diagnostic beeps 03:54:17 yowza 03:54:21 what did you do to it? 03:56:07 just took the HD out because it was giving lots of garbage'd output 03:59:10 anyway, you got some time to chat about the oacs.org? 04:00:07 shoot it. I'll be working on this machine and coming back to the channel 04:01:13 ok. lemme catch up on what we talk abotu actually... 04:01:24 * talli goes to read this morning's log 04:02:21 ok 04:02:50 rbm, so there are two pieces of the site we're talking about, and hte question is whether to combine them or to put them in separate sections. 04:03:12 they aren't mutually exclusive, but one would be a sub-section of the other if we chose to combine them 04:04:04 they are a Features Section with feature articles about people in teh community, sites that are built with the OACS, articles about the OACS tech, etc. 04:04:19 the other is a section regarding features of the OACS 04:04:43 so, the API, AOLserver, why tcl is a fine language for dev, etc. 04:05:05 i don't think that it's a bad thing to have the features of the OACS in the features section 04:08:25 rafa (rafa@ebt.ee.usyd.edu.au) has joined #openacs 04:08:37 hello 04:08:37 hello, rafa 04:08:43 hi paje 04:08:58 how are things? 04:10:05 talli: But the features page would be big. It won't fit in that little box on the left, unless you're talking about just links as in phpgroupware.org 04:11:48 rbm: I fixed yesterday's problem. I will try to write a page explaining how to do it. 04:11:50 hmmm... 04:12:04 i think i haven't explained my self well 04:12:11 the problems is that the groups need to be created as application groups 04:12:33 your features of OACS will have a summary, right? 04:12:45 (like any good article needs to have) 04:12:56 so in the features box just the summary would show up 04:13:05 same as any other article in the features nox 04:13:06 box 04:13:54 so for each feature you talk about (API, Permissioning model, Request Processor, CR, etc) there will be a small summary that can be displayed in the features box with a link to the entire article 04:13:55 make sense>? 04:14:26 and you want that "features" box to display different articles that rotate rightL 04:14:30 s/L/?/ 04:15:05 right 04:15:23 fresh content on the homepage to advertise parts of the OACS project or community 04:15:37 draw people into the site to learn more about the system 04:15:45 and make everything more transparent 04:19:05 fresh content is great, but I still think there should be a link from the top page where someone evaluating/comparing openacs can quickly get to with the features of the system 04:19:18 one that doesn't rotate, that is always there 04:19:19 that's fine 04:19:26 i agree 04:19:42 there needs to be a link to the Features Section 04:19:46 that is for sure 04:20:07 but if the features of the OACS is not in the features section, then it can go in the documentation or software section 04:20:31 and the content in the features of the oacs can still be in the queue regardless 04:20:48 however, i think the software and documentation sections should be about just software and documentation 04:21:07 okay 04:21:11 but, your features of the oacs can be considered the "oacs in a nutshell" docs 04:21:43 also, there can be a link in the text of the homepage saying, "if you want to see a quick list of the features of the oacs, click here" 04:22:39 did you see the phpgroupware page? 04:22:51 yeah 04:24:38 do you want to do the exact same thing or just something similar? 04:24:41 what are you thinking about? 04:27:43 what I said... a features page 04:28:42 what kind of features page, though? like what they have? a features section like what i'm talking about? 04:28:52 do you have any specific idea of what you're thinking about? 04:30:29 what they have there isn't really a page, it's a section with all the features of phpgroupware (in a rather non-technical way. check out the API page) 04:31:28 I'd like a more detailed page. And I think you agree with me, but I'm not sure about the layout you're suggesting 04:31:54 yeah, i agree with you 04:32:05 but do you want to have one looooong page listing everything 04:32:24 or a section with the pieces broken up according to different features 04:32:56 the latter 04:33:02 ok, cool 04:33:08 But I want a link from the top / to that page 04:33:18 sure, no prob 04:33:59 what i am suggesting (each section being features in the feature box on a rotating schedule) is not exclusive from having a link to the page listing the features 04:34:06 here's an example 04:34:33 in the text of the home page, there will be a prominent line saying "if you'd like to learn more about the features of the OACS, click here" 04:34:42 which takes you to the section you want to right 04:36:26 meanwhile, in the features box, there is short quote from the Content Repository that says, "The OACS stores all of its content in the Content Repository which enables advanced features like versioning and facilitates site wide search. For more information about the CR, click here" this link takes you directly to the section about the CR 04:36:57 so if someone wants to surf through the site, they can click on the link to the top level of the featues of the oacs 04:37:31 but if they're not so sure about the system, we catch their eye with some quick candy, which pushes them right into the heart of the site 04:38:02 the next time they come to the home page, they will see another piece of content in the features box, perhaps about the API or about the RP 04:38:32 or, they'll see a little article about Roberto Mello, a brazilian who loves free software so much he helped start the oacs community 04:39:02 or, a quick little article about dotLRN, a project initiated by the Sloan school to build a GPL course management system 04:39:11 does this stuff make more sense? 04:43:27 rbm: still there? 04:45:06 yeah, sorry. Just revived the mobo 04:45:40 talli: I see what you're saying now. I agree wholeheartedly. 04:45:45 ok, great 04:46:20 this effort is just to get the content inside the site more available to visitors 04:56:26 talli: do you have the thread url handy? 04:58:04 which one? 04:59:06 the site task list that you just e 04:59:09 the site task list that you just e-mailed 04:59:14 !#$^@$#)^@( enter key 05:01:30 chris_ (~chris@roving-70.engr.utexas.edu) has joined #openacs 05:04:09 hey, anyone ever have a problem installing packages with the message that acs-messaging is not installed? that's what I'm getting 05:13:45 shagster (~mkovach@63.90.248.161) has joined #openacs 05:25:22 chris_ has quit ("BitchX-1.0c17 -- just do it.") 05:43:47 moo? 05:43:48 moo rbm, glad to see you back! 05:43:59 rbm: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00047F&topic_id=12&topic=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Design 05:44:06 that's the task list for the new site 05:44:13 k 05:44:26 if you want to help implement that feature site, i think it might be the hardest piece 05:44:36 unless the ad server module actually works 05:45:25 oh, man 05:45:31 i missed that jun also volunteered 05:45:44 i'll have to ping him too 05:49:35 there is one nasty ugly fight going on in the jabber foundation. whoa 05:50:27 reminds me of the great OACS wars 07:09:27 dlk (dlk@walter.ita.chalmers.se) has joined #openacs 07:55:01 dlk is now known as dlk-meeeting 07:55:05 dlk-meeeting is now known as dlk-meeting 11:14:30 andyn has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 11:14:30 talli has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 11:15:08 talli (~talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #OpenACS 11:15:08 andyn (~andy@12-254-190-230.client.attbi.com) has joined #OpenACS 11:53:28 talli has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 11:53:28 andyn has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 11:53:42 talli (~talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #OpenACS 11:53:42 andyn (~andy@12-254-190-230.client.attbi.com) has joined #OpenACS 13:00:18 dlk-meeting is now known as dead-man-walking 13:12:31 dead-man-walking is now known as dlk 13:35:34 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.64.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 14:33:45 davb (~dave@rrcs-nys-24-97-22-203.biz.rr.com) has joined #openacs 14:52:11 NuttyMcS has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:14:38 paje: excuse 15:14:39 davb: Program load too heavy for processor to lift. 15:14:52 paje: excuse 15:14:52 davb: Traffic jam on the Information Superhighway. 15:28:07 * markd2 likes toast with traffic jam 15:28:36 heh 15:29:28 :) 15:33:14 testing, testing installation, creating 15:33:15 RPMs, debs, windows installable packages, etc etc, should probably work with 15:33:15 the tagged oacs-4-5 branch. Only those doing long term development work should 15:33:15 use the default (untagged) branch. 15:33:16 argh 15:33:25 http://www.ordinary-life.net/blog/archives/cat_web_design_the_business.php 15:33:25 D: http://www.ordinary-life.net/blog/archives/cat_web_design_the_business.php from davb 15:33:36 D:|Web Design, The Business Archives 15:33:36 titled item D 15:33:48 D: links to business resources for web designers 15:33:48 commented item D 16:07:24 k2pts (~nkd@213.149.180.151) has joined #openacs 16:08:06 dlk has quit ("*poff*") 16:08:11 hello 16:08:11 que tal, markd2 16:08:17 hey markd2 16:08:32 paje: seen me? 16:08:32 I haven't seen 'me', k2pts 16:08:48 paje: hide 16:08:48 k2pts: huh? 16:08:58 paje: hide? 16:08:58 i don't know, k2pts 16:09:08 markd2: how's it going? 16:09:25 going well 16:09:39 doing some maintenance on my colocated box 16:09:46 the IP addresses are being renumberd :-| 16:10:40 yeah, I was just reading in your borklog 16:11:07 I'm always nervous doing network configs 16:11:13 one slip and 'poof' you're disconnected 16:11:29 I know what you mean 16:13:54 paje: seen davb? 16:13:54 davb was last seen on #openacs 40 minutes and 6 seconds ago, saying: D: links to business resources for web designers [Tue Mar 12 08:35:49 2002] 16:14:13 paje: seen talli? 16:14:13 talli was last seen on #openacs 10 hours, 23 minutes and 45 seconds ago, saying: reminds me of the great OACS wars [Mon Mar 11 22:52:29 2002] 16:14:29 l8r markd2 16:14:43 k2pts has left #openacs 16:17:16 seen pschepylax? 16:17:16 I haven't seen 'pschepylax', markd2 16:17:21 seen psychepylax? 16:17:21 I haven't seen 'psychepylax', markd2 16:17:26 seen psychephylax? 16:17:27 psychephylax was last seen on #openacs 8 days, 20 hours, 55 minutes and 14 seconds ago, saying: BSD and XP no like each other [Sun Mar 3 12:24:14 2002] 16:17:31 * markd2 leanrs to spell one of these days 16:19:18 darn 16:19:23 * davb misses k2pts again 16:19:42 denshi (~chatzilla@adsl-216-62-223-193.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs 16:20:02 if he's a registered user, you can leave him memos 16:28:11 hey markd2 16:28:16 yo 16:29:09 In continuing the goats thread, I have a link for you 16:29:12 bobbins.org 16:30:18 neat stuff on badgerblog lately... shouldn't you be working? 16:32:58 heh 16:33:02 I've been studying for an oracle test 16:33:08 gotta take some mental breaks 17:10:26 open question: how much programmability would you like to see exposed to users of a community site? 17:11:21 define programabillity 17:12:05 hmm... 17:12:41 to visitors? 17:14:50 I should first note that the 'program' for an active community website comprises both the code running it, and the very large dataset that has accumulated. 17:16:26 So if you, say, wanted to write something for photo.net or slashdot, your tools should optimally be both the source and access to the user data. 17:16:44 with those definitions out of the way... 17:18:02 rbm: programmability in that users are able to upload code that runs on my server. I have long wanted to do something like that. 17:19:04 interesting. Tcl/Adp code? or some custom language? 17:19:41 that way, a user who knows of a better way of manipulating or presenting the community data can write it, and run it on the large dataset, and on my server. 17:21:31 I think the way that net.comm has transformed (from peer systems like NNTP to centralized bboards on RDBMSes) has an ugly downside, in that system evolution is constrained by the operators of the central bboards. 17:23:49 the dangers of user security and resource hogging are obvious. 17:25:15 The reason I'm asking is that I'm writing a test language with the design goal of 'user permission errors are impossible'. The above is a natural test bed. So I'm asking how much programmability people ask for as users. 17:26:44 I think mostly users want to change the way the data is displayed. which is more a template kind of function. 17:27:14 Your idea I can see more for an intranet situation 17:29:20 andyn has quit ("leaving") 17:33:02 I'm more interested in finding out what the non-average user would do -- that tiny group that writes new code. It would be trivial to extend to community to share code between users. 17:33:16 so targeting the nerds first is a productive plan. 17:34:13 interesting idea 17:34:17 I had never considered something like that 17:35:55 ow, my brain 17:36:40 denshi: here is another weblog at least partially related to programming languages 17:36:42 http://radio.weblogs.com/0100812/ 17:36:42 E: http://radio.weblogs.com/0100812/ from davb 17:36:49 E:|Patrick Logan's Weblog 17:36:49 titled item E 17:37:55 I have considered that the first time I read slashdot, and thought "I could write a better UI for my /. user". But I never thought it was feasible b/c of the small number of users who will devote their lives to crashing your server. 17:38:41 But since I started on this kick about formal proofs of multiuser safety, I'm reevaluating it. 17:41:23 andyn (~andy@12-254-190-230.client.attbi.com) has joined #openacs 17:44:28 k2pts (~nkd@213.149.180.151) has joined #openacs 17:45:38 hey neo 17:45:58 hey denshi 17:46:05 how's it going? 17:46:13 okay 17:46:25 talli sez you have a new lang to play with. 17:46:25 hi k2pts 17:47:05 ola 17:47:17 hey hazmat,davb 17:49:28 Mozilla 0.99! 17:49:37 0.9.9 that is 17:49:47 * markd2 waits for moz 0.99999 17:49:50 gotta have 5 9's aftera ll 17:49:59 after all too 17:50:10 cool: include TrueType font support for UNIX and SOAP support" 17:57:05 davb: you there? 17:57:53 paje: what's going on? 17:57:53 wish i knew, k2pts 17:58:38 I am here. 17:58:49 check your private messages 17:59:17 oops. (no sound) :) 18:06:15 SOAP support? 18:06:45 Their site was slow so I didn't investigate. Probably means it can act as a SOAP client. 18:07:04 Why? 18:07:35 part of the Mozilla as platform thing probably 18:08:38 yup 18:09:08 I guess mozilla will become everything but a browser 18:10:14 yeah, we need mozilla-lite with just a browser. But I can think of alot of things to do with the mozilla-platform 18:10:39 hi rbm, I was just leaving...I hope you are well...we chat l8r 18:10:54 time for lunch 18:11:04 time for dinner :) 18:11:26 k2pts has left #openacs 18:11:31 hey k2... 18:11:33 darn 18:47:57 davb: what's up with the blog? 19:09:35 patrick logans? 19:09:55 no, yours. 19:10:36 the #openacs blog hasn't been updated since the 4th. 19:10:57 argh. 19:11:25