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00:49:35 <talli> hey docwolf
00:49:37 <talli> hey davb
00:49:41 <davb> hi talli
00:50:49 <talli> how's it going?
00:51:00 <davb> not bad, catching up on email.
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19:22:54 <talli> hey davb
19:23:05 <davb> hello talli
19:24:09 <talli> thanks for posting to the SDM thread i started
19:25:50 <talli> i was wondering whether you had any specific ideas for how to build a new SDM. i remember asking you something about it and you had a pretty strong opinion about starting compltely over
19:26:50 <davb> Well, my opinion these days is to use what OpenACS 4 offers in terms of APIs etc because it really helps to get that little bit of integration that is a really ugly hack in 3.x style programming.
19:27:08 <davb> IE. if you use the CR, it is easy to build in search.
19:27:29 <davb> Also the new category system is planned to allow categorization of any acs_object, etc...
19:27:52 <talli> yeah, that would be very nice
19:28:03 <davb> It might be possible to port the old one to get a working product and integrate it keeping the APIs as close as possible, or it might not be worth it.
19:28:05 <talli> search and categories would probably allow for some really nice functionality
19:28:50 <davb> exactly. It would really help to make it easier to find items and relate bboard posts to bug reports etc...
19:29:23 <talli> the current sdm is very good for what it is, but the interface isn't so nice and it's kinda simple
19:29:38 <talli> in other words, i think it need to be boosted a good bit
19:29:52 <talli> and as you said, it should really be abel to take advantage of workflow
19:30:16 <talli> bbiam
19:30:23 <davb> talli: yes, as with most of the OpenACS stuff UI needs work :)
20:39:09 <markd2> markd2 (~Snak@r-41.21.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
20:53:51 <rbm> * rbm liked talli's "megajerk" comment :)
20:54:44 <rbm> Is there better documentation as to what are good uses (with examples) of ETP somewhere? I find the etp.museatech.net docs don't really answer that questin.
20:58:53 <davb> it is suppoed to make it easy to enter and edit content for any type of application that generally would be implemented with one table.
21:00:13 <rbm> one table?
21:00:32 <rbm> doesn't FAQ have at least 2 tables?
21:01:37 <rbm> I guess I'm not seeing the advantage of using ETP to build an app instead of just the OACS/AOLserver APIs
21:01:52 <rbm> bbiab
21:02:36 <davb> ok:)
21:10:34 <davb> if you mount ETP at the site root, you should be able to use it to manage a large part of a site. You can have sections and subsections, etc. It can generate the UI and navigation for that. So alot of your work is already done.
21:11:53 <markd2> would ETP work for a sceneraio like a small time shareware producer  (fer example)
21:12:14 <markd2> a page on each product, with 'wahtthis is', screenshots with arbitrary #of images, a download section for verious chunks of downloaded
21:12:18 <markd2> er, downloadage
21:12:30 <markd2> like "get the xyz version1, get the source for xyz"
21:12:39 <markd2> it'd be nice for each of those parts of the page to be editable
21:13:36 <talli> depending on how sophisticated the download functionality is, isn't that more in line with what subsites might offer?
21:13:56 <davb> * davb thinks
21:14:00 <markd2> dunno
21:14:02 <talli> the page on each product with screenshots and whatthis is no prob with etp
21:14:06 <markd2> I'd like just one page per product
21:14:28 <talli> the download stuff could be a bit more complicated, although i guess ETP2 will allow for some file management capabilities, right davb?
21:14:44 <markd2> the file management I can do myself (just links),
21:14:57 <talli> for downloads, if you want all the stats and the versioning and so on, then i guess that's what the download module is for
21:14:59 <davb> ETP is currently setup for one "sections" for each page. If you had a page with multiple parts, you could add attributes for each part. It uses symlinks so you could symlink to a page in the download package for the download part.
21:15:18 <markd2> can ETP do multiple sectioins for each page?
21:15:28 <davb> Not of the same type.
21:15:33 <markd2> ok
21:15:47 <davb> But I think it could (I would like it anyway)
21:16:12 <djg_> djg_ is now known as djg
21:16:13 <davb> although you can do it with a subsection for each "page" and then the "pages" are the parts of the page.
21:29:44 <talli> davb, do you think it would be better to build OACS.org with your ETP2+workflow stuff or use the news module instead? there are a number of pieces that require an admin workflow that could be solved best with etp2+workflow, but in the interest of time might better be served with a modified news module
21:30:43 <markd2> * markd2 should make an EditThisWorkflowNews2++
21:30:47 <davb> talli: I have no idea when I will actually have something nice for people to use. I would love it to be done, but I think you better get the site working instead.
21:30:58 <talli> ok
21:31:04 <davb> oops, I forgot a whole clause in there.
21:31:21 <talli> have you, luke or jun put any work into etp2 beyond what luke did the other day?
21:32:16 <davb> I build a sample workflow, and have reread the workflow docs a couple of times, but I haven't been able to sit down and start actually building it. I did install it, and it works :)
21:32:26 <talli> :)
21:32:40 <davb> I haven't looked at the CVS in a couple of days.
21:33:18 <davb> brb
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22:37:30 <CodeConnoisseur> CodeConnoisseur (~CodeConno@user-1120pdp.dsl.mindspring.com) has joined #openacs
22:37:57 <CodeConnoisseur> wow, there is an openacs channel with people in it.
22:38:03 <markd2> hiya!
22:38:08 <talli> aye aye, CodeConnoisseur
22:38:15 <CodeConnoisseur> hello all.
22:38:21 <talli> although be careful, the bots are everywhere
22:38:38 <markd2> hiya!
22:38:45 <CodeConnoisseur> what bots?  Same deal as on Yahoo chat servers?
22:38:53 <markd2> paje, again!
22:38:53 <paje> * paje spanks talli
22:38:56 <markd2> paje, again!
22:38:57 <paje> * paje spanks talli
22:39:05 <talli> one more!
22:39:25 <markd2> paje, again!
22:39:25 <paje> * paje spanks talli
22:39:31 <CodeConnoisseur> you two bots?
22:39:41 <markd2> talli is a bot
22:39:42 <talli> affirmative. 
22:39:43 <markd2> I'm not
22:39:58 <talli> but i'm a bot that runs on punch cards and fortran
22:40:09 <CodeConnoisseur> heh
22:40:22 <markd2> we're hoping to recode talli into object fortran
22:40:27 <CodeConnoisseur> are y'all long time acs developers?
22:41:02 <talli> i'm not
22:41:06 <CodeConnoisseur> I've been trying to learn more about acs
22:41:09 <talli> markd2 seems to act like he is
22:41:26 <talli> at least when he's not going on and on about the elegance of cobol
22:41:38 <talli> CodeConnoisseur, have you been on the boards?
22:41:41 <davb> define "long time"
22:41:58 <CodeConnoisseur> not really...I found this board indirectly.
22:42:07 <CodeConnoisseur> been working on getting gentoo installed.
22:42:17 <talli> * talli reaches for his slide rule and dictionary to respond to davb
22:42:34 <CodeConnoisseur> got dragged to IRC to get my questions answered.
22:42:35 <talli> gentoo seems cool, but it doesn't quite look ready
22:42:41 <talli> have you tried debian?
22:42:58 <CodeConnoisseur> long time: long enough to know a thing or two about acs.
22:43:17 <talli> davb is too modest
22:43:33 <talli> he know the OACS in and out
22:43:36 <markd2> davb is a god
22:43:41 <CodeConnoisseur> davb sounds familiar...perhaps from the openacs.org web site?
22:44:07 <talli> CodeConnoisseur, btw, try and use the "O" in front of ACS. we don't have anything to do with aD anymore. sorry to be pedantic
22:44:14 <CodeConnoisseur> I've been trying to put two and two together and figure out what's what between arsdigita and open acs.
22:44:50 <CodeConnoisseur> oacs?  hmmm...why not oasis?
22:44:53 <CodeConnoisseur> ;-)
22:44:57 <markd2> ÖAÇS
22:45:00 <talli> aD no longer exists. the openacs maintains the tcl code
22:45:24 <markd2> aD dumped tcl for java, then folded
22:45:40 <CodeConnoisseur> ah...that's one key of the puzzle I've been trying to figure out.
22:46:14 <CodeConnoisseur> I read Greenspun's book and it goes on and on about the virtues of Tcl, then I go look at ACS and see it's in Java.
22:46:18 <CodeConnoisseur> weird, weird, weird.
22:46:35 <markd2> yeah
22:46:48 <markd2> aD threw out acs 3, and started on acs 4 from scratch.  got about 80% there, then threw it out
22:46:51 <CodeConnoisseur> then I find OACS, but can't tell from the sparse docs if it also is converting to Java with OACS 4 releast.
22:46:54 <markd2> and started on acs "4.5" / java from scratch
22:46:57 <CodeConnoisseur> release.
22:47:00 <markd2> lord I hope not
22:47:51 <talli> yeah. i think we're asking for some serious confusion with OACS4.5. but oh well. people would have been confused no matter what
22:48:02 <CodeConnoisseur> but what were they aiming to accomplish?
22:48:11 <talli> WORLD DOMINATION
22:48:25 <CodeConnoisseur> lol...a Gates wannabe?
22:48:27 <markd2> supposedly a Java product would be easier to sell into Big Clients
22:48:30 <talli> unfortuantely, they did not realize that markd2 stood in their way
22:48:41 <markd2> MUAHAHAHAHAHA
22:49:15 <CodeConnoisseur> markd2: you killed the company?
22:49:43 <talli> he killed the company, but he did not kill the deputy
22:50:09 <talli> cocainnnnnnne...
22:50:28 <CodeConnoisseur> well, seriously, what was so wrong with 3, that they rebuilt 4 from scratch?
22:51:15 <talli> CodeConnoisseur, you missed the soap opera. unfortunately the network pulled the plug and it won't be syndicated
22:51:22 <markd2> heh
22:51:33 <talli> the real answer is that your questions lead to a loooooooooooong story
22:51:38 <markd2> yeah
22:52:12 <CodeConnoisseur> I've seen bits and pieces of the soap opera...read Greenspun's book, then saw that little monotribe on Eve Anderson's home page...
22:52:20 <talli> ugh
22:52:20 <markd2> heh
22:52:22 <CodeConnoisseur> I'm just trying to put it together.
22:52:49 <talli> try and stop. it just gets worse
22:53:03 <CodeConnoisseur> I'm not so much interested in what politics went down as where things stand technically.
22:53:17 <talli> ah... well that's another long story...
22:53:25 <markd2> acs 4 when dropped by aD had some good stuff in it, but wasn't finished
22:53:31 <markd2> the OACS folks picked up the ball and ran with it
22:53:39 <markd2> doing the last 20% (which of course takes another 80% of the time)
22:53:52 <CodeConnoisseur> Greenspun's philosophy and approach to software is very much in tune with my own, and his technical decisions seem right on cue most of the time.
22:53:55 <talli> and making it work with both Oracle and PostgreSQL
22:54:56 <CodeConnoisseur> I have an Oracle background...but I've been developing Windows based software these past few years.
22:55:32 <CodeConnoisseur> I'm trying to move away from Microsoft into a Unix world and I want to get into web-development because that is the future of things.
22:56:00 <rbm> hey hey
22:56:02 <talli> you mean the InterWeb? i think i've heard of that
22:56:30 <CodeConnoisseur> InterWeb?  never heard of it.
22:56:35 <talli> i have a great idea for a business for the InterWeb... I'm goign to sell BOOKS!!!!
22:57:08 <CodeConnoisseur> I just think more and more apps, esp. database oriented apps are going to be deployed via browsers in the future.
22:57:23 <docwolf> good evening
22:58:03 <talli> oh man.
22:58:12 <talli> the doctor is back
22:58:13 <CodeConnoisseur> especially within large firms with heterogenious environments.
22:59:10 <docwolf> yeah, the doctor is in. everyone head for the hills...
22:59:28 <CodeConnoisseur> Where does OACS 4 stand?  The website seems to be quite a bit out of date.
22:59:37 <talli> ugh
22:59:47 <talli> it's in beta right now
22:59:58 <talli> actually, it shoudl go into beta today
23:00:02 <talli> OACS 4.5
23:00:10 <talli> whatever that means
23:00:15 <docwolf> this thing has been in testing longer than mozilla
23:00:20 <talli> haha
23:00:40 <markd2> ouch
23:01:03 <talli> maybe because there are all these trolls that hang around community with their noses in the air because they can spell M-B-A
23:01:08 <talli> and M-D
23:01:23 <CodeConnoisseur> Can it be set up with Apache?  I tried to set up AOLServer, but after a full day of trying without success to get it to host more than one URL, I gave up.
23:01:25 <docwolf> uh oh. HULK SMASH.
23:02:15 <talli> AOLserver doesn't do virtual hosting very well
23:02:25 <docwolf> talli: hahaha
23:02:35 <CodeConnoisseur> sounds like y'all really had some serious politicking going on surrounding this whole system.
23:02:36 <talli> i'll HULK SMASH you docwolf
23:03:01 <talli> OACS is very tightly integrated with a lot of the features specific to AOLserver
23:03:06 <talli> so it doesn't run with apache
23:03:43 <talli> there are ways to do virtual hosting, but it's not as easy as with apache
23:03:53 <talli> hopefully, in aolserver 4 they'll solve this problem
23:04:05 <CodeConnoisseur> when is AOLS 4 due out?
23:04:27 <CodeConnoisseur> I've gotta do virtual hosting if I'm going to support multiple clients.
23:04:46 <markd2> Jerry Asher has some patches that do vhosting
23:04:56 <markd2> I've not used 'em
23:05:10 <CodeConnoisseur> are they on Freshmeat or SourceForge?
23:05:22 <talli> CodeConnoisseur, why do you need virtual hosting?
23:05:51 <CodeConnoisseur> one box, one ip address, several customer's web-sites.
23:05:59 <talli> i'm the head of an OACS shop and we haven't had any compelling need for virtual hosting
23:06:29 <talli> if you're going to build a site in OACS, you're going to use a pretty heavy system
23:06:52 <CodeConnoisseur> I'm just starting out, so can't afford to have bigger set up until I get the customers.
23:06:53 <talli> and if you're goign to host client sites, you might want to look at getting more than one IP
23:07:07 <talli> what kind of systems are you looking to build?
23:08:01 <CodeConnoisseur> I'm still researching...but right now, just planning to start with Linux and PostgreSQL on a 1.7ghz box with 2 to 4 hds in a RAID configuration.
23:08:35 <talli> collocated or at home?
23:08:38 <CodeConnoisseur> I am not building sites that's gonna have 100,000 hits a day...more like 1,000.
23:08:54 <talli> what kind of application do you need?
23:09:06 <CodeConnoisseur> At home.  SDSL
23:09:40 <CodeConnoisseur> The first customer is a courier firm in Atlanta.  They need customers to log in, place an order, track their order, etc. in real time.
23:09:59 <talli> SDSL can be dangerous for that
23:10:18 <CodeConnoisseur> They're ok with potential down times.
23:10:33 <CodeConnoisseur> We're trying to do proof of concept sort of thing.
23:10:37 <talli> eitehr way, the number of IPs are not a big deal. you can get more relatively cheaply
23:10:51 <CodeConnoisseur> true.
23:10:59 <markd2> my colofacility just gave me 3 more for free
23:11:03 <talli> have you used the OACS yet? have you used any web apps?
23:11:20 <talli> evaluated any of them yet?
23:11:33 <CodeConnoisseur> Like I said, I am just getting started in full-time web-development.
23:11:51 <CodeConnoisseur> I've been looking at PhpNuke, PostNuke, Yabbse, and now OpenACS
23:12:01 <hazmat> Yabbse?
23:12:03 <talli> yabbse?
23:12:15 <markd2> yet another bbs environment?
23:12:18 <talli> haha
23:12:27 <CodeConnoisseur> yeah.  a fork of yabb
23:12:43 <CodeConnoisseur> se probably means "special edition"
23:12:44 <talli> phpnuke and postnuke aren't really application toolkits, AFAICS
23:12:57 <markd2> docwolf is the phpnuke expert
23:13:11 <talli> OACS is in the same class as zope and webware
23:13:17 <talli> but takes a different approach
23:13:19 <CodeConnoisseur> they are pretty basic...more a content manager than anything.
23:13:27 <talli> right
23:13:45 <CodeConnoisseur> I haven't looked at zope and webware...are they GPL'd?
23:13:51 <hazmat> no
23:13:57 <talli> but they're open
23:14:03 <hazmat> both are gpl compatible afaik
23:14:08 <talli> hazmat, isn't zope moving towards a gpl license?
23:14:17 <hazmat> Zpl2.0 is gpl compatible
23:14:22 <hazmat> i'm not sure about webware off hand
23:14:26 <talli> webware is under a python license
23:14:31 <talli> 1.0 i think
23:14:45 <talli> so more BSD than GPL, IIRC
23:15:06 <talli> if you like the philg approach, then OACS is your way to go
23:15:13 <talli> zope and webware are more OOP
23:15:23 <talli> hazmat is the one to talk to about zope
23:15:23 <CodeConnoisseur> hmmm...freshmeat down?
23:16:01 <hazmat> i get alot of shit all the time for releasing gpl zope software... gotta run.
23:16:25 <CodeConnoisseur> What's webware's site?  I get a gazillion googles
23:17:02 <CodeConnoisseur> python is good....at least I like what I've seen of it so far.
23:17:24 <CodeConnoisseur> I'd rather stay in a scripting world for web-development if at all possible.
23:17:59 <hazmat> webware.sf.net
23:19:09 <CodeConnoisseur> whaddya mean you're catching flack for releasing gpl zope?
23:19:13 <hazmat> although if you're looking for rapid development with an existing toolkit that handles alot of the basics (auth, membership) and has several addon modules already , openacs is a really good place to look.
23:19:52 <rbm> I should compile and test-drive AOLserver 4 one of these days
23:19:53 <hazmat> CodeConnoisseur: alot of zope people prefer the bsd style licenses... 
23:20:16 <CodeConnoisseur> I definitely like the concept of openacs...not entirely sold on aolserver and tcl, though.
23:20:55 <hazmat> for this problem domain tcl seems like a good fit most of the time, ie for the general case of querying a db, and formatting responses.
23:20:55 <CodeConnoisseur> Greenspun's arguments make good sense technically, but I get too many "huh?"'s when I talk to customers.
23:20:55 <rbm> CodeConnoisseur: You can do Java and Python with AOLserver, integrating very well with OpenACS. 
23:21:22 <rbm> CodeConnoisseur: I get that too. Just point them to aol.com and say "It works for them"
23:21:43 <markd2> plus tcl is really easy to learn
23:21:49 <markd2> it's like the maintainable subset of perl
23:21:56 <CodeConnoisseur> heh...that's funny, because I usually ween them *off* aol when I come along.
23:22:29 <rbm> what does that mean?
23:23:03 <davb> CodeConnoisseur: for virtual hosting, run apache in from of AOLserver as a proxy. works great.
23:23:12 <CodeConnoisseur> They usually have a lot of complaints about AOL and I help them find a new ISP.
23:23:44 <CodeConnoisseur> hmmm...now there's an idea.  got a howto?
23:23:59 <rbm> AOL as an ISP has nothing to do with aol.com. As a very complex production environment, you can't go much further than aol.com and digitalcity.com
23:25:39 <CodeConnoisseur> true, but how do you disassociate those two concepts in your "average joe" customer?  They see AOL as terrible service...they naturally see aol.com as more the same.
23:25:41 <markd2> also, aol the isp (e.g. using the aol client) is a wholly different technology than webby stuff (like aol.com)
23:26:04 <CodeConnoisseur> i.e. they're predisposed to disbelieving.
23:26:48 <rbm> CodeConnoisseur: That's your job as a consultant.
23:26:52 <CodeConnoisseur> davb: what would the howto be called for the apache proxying for aolserver?
23:27:15 <talli> CodeConnoisseur, i might get yelled down for this, but really the best part of the OACS is aolserver
23:27:47 <rbm> CodeConnoisseur: Just look in the apache docs for mod_proxy, and have aolserver listening on a port other than 80
23:27:51 <markd2> right on talli!
23:28:00 <CodeConnoisseur> rbm: I do my best to educate, but when you're new to a group of clients, too many "ideas" at the beginning overwhelms.
23:28:04 <talli> AOLserver truly rocks. if you're looking for a strong db integration, AOLserver is amazing
23:28:17 <rbm> * rbm agrees with talli
23:28:24 <CodeConnoisseur> rbm: thanks...will do.
23:28:27 <rbm> And the AOLserver C code is plain beautiful.
23:28:59 <rbm> * rbm compiles AOLserver 4.0
23:29:13 <talli> it doesn't seem like anyone in the OACS community would care if tcl was replaced with another language, but people would be upset if AOLserver disappeared all of a sudden
23:29:15 <CodeConnoisseur> ok...I'll give it another go...this time with Apache proxying...I can at least fire up AOLServer on different ports (already did that).
23:30:03 <CodeConnoisseur> I've learned a lot here, already. :-)
23:30:22 <talli> CodeConnoisseur, the nice thing about the OACS community is that it's very helpful 
23:30:23 <CodeConnoisseur> Just to clarify...OACS is all 100% Tcl with none of that Java non-sense, right?
23:30:39 <talli> we're can be curmudgeony, but people help people out a lot
23:30:45 <talli> no, completely java-lesss
23:30:47 <CodeConnoisseur> talli: I find that generally true of all the Open communities so far.
23:30:49 <talli> except for some chat crap
23:31:02 <rbm> paje: insult talli
23:31:03 <paje> talli is nothing but a squishy ooze of unoriginal snake snot.
23:31:14 <markd2> there's some db-stored-procedure stuff too
23:31:17 <talli> right on paje!
23:31:29 <talli> markd2, i am?
23:31:29 <CodeConnoisseur> paje is a bot?
23:31:38 <rbm> paje: who are you?
23:31:39 <paje> well, i am the medicine man and oracle in Amazonian tribes. I'm also a recipient of church of mike's "full deal" package
23:31:41 <talli> i didn't know i had any stored procedure
23:31:59 <talli> if paje is a bot, then i am too. dammit.
23:32:23 <rbm> * rbm notices that 4.0 is in beta2
23:32:27 <markd2> talli is a stored procedure
23:32:44 <talli> * talli feels all 4GL-y
23:33:02 <markd2> peanut butter and 4GLy
23:33:05 <talli> rbm, i tried downloading AOLserver4 today but my connecting was bad
23:33:07 <davb> rbm: that sounds promising...
23:33:24 <CodeConnoisseur> should I play with OACS 4 or 3?  This is mostly play at the moment...probably won't *have* to depend on stability of OACS for a couple months.
23:33:26 <talli> is there any FAQ or readme file in it that talks abotu what's new?
23:33:41 <rbm> I wish I knew autoconf better to convert AOLserver to it. 
23:34:01 <CodeConnoisseur> hmmm...I wonder if gentoo has aolserver in their portage tree, yet.
23:34:14 <rbm> CodeConnoisseur: 4.5, definitely. http://openacs.org/doc/
23:34:22 <rbm> What's gentoo?
23:34:33 <talli> gentoo linux
23:34:39 <CodeConnoisseur> linux distro
23:34:40 <talli> they're porting the BSD ports system to linux
23:34:45 <rbm> Ahh
23:34:53 <rbm> talli: eh? why?
23:35:05 <talli> dunno. why not?
23:35:15 <rbm> I guess that's a better question :)
23:35:16 <CodeConnoisseur> thanks...I'll look at 4.5, then....I'd actually been avoiding it on account of suspecting it was Java port of Tcl version.
23:35:20 <markd2> gentoo ben
23:35:33 <markd2> that was acs/java 4.0
23:35:37 <rbm> CodeConnoisseur: OpenACS is all Tcl. 
23:35:37 <markd2> a java port of the tcl version
23:35:58 <talli> talli has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:36:04 <talli> talli (~talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs
23:36:53 <CodeConnoisseur> well, maybe I'll be making contribs to OpenACS one day.  Greenspun definitely sold me on the system...but I got totally lost in...I guess you'd call it "the soap opera" aftermath.
23:37:49 <rbm> what's the 
23:38:01 <rbm> what's the -mcpu= line for AMD K6-2?
23:38:35 <CodeConnoisseur> later
23:38:49 <talli> l8
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23:58:30 <talli> rbm, virtual hosting is supposed to be improved in aolserver 4, right?
23:58:44 <talli> or is it supposed to "work"?
23:59:20 <rbm> talli: Everything is virtual host ready in AOLserver 4, and it works out of the box
23:59:28 <talli> nice
23:59:34 <rbm> By "everything" I mean all the APIs and such.
23:59:39 <talli> ah, ok