00:00:20 sbp (~sean@63.149.73.20) has joined #openacs 00:02:53 * hazmat does a driveby on #swhack 00:03:12 yeah, wtf are we doing there? i mean, sbp is there 00:03:53 yeah. Pff. You want to avoid channels that I'm in :-) 00:04:03 so talli if the info is already there, then all thats needed is a template method to export the metadata in rdf/xml. 00:04:18 ok, let's continue that conversation here ;) 00:04:23 why a template method? 00:04:24 * hazmat tries to swing back on track ;) 00:04:37 you want to generate xml in tcl? ick 00:04:43 just use the templating system. 00:05:03 ok 00:05:24 * hazmat tries to rearrange his brain to acs speak ;) 00:05:27 i am also trying to think out whether there is anything in this idea that should be suggested for ETP2 00:06:10 i think its easier and more useful to generically export this as a function of the cr, than package the functionality spefically for ept2 00:06:30 yeah, that makes sense 00:09:26 AaronSw (~aaronsw@63.149.73.20) has joined #openacs 00:09:44 welcome to #openacs, Aaron 00:09:49 hey! 00:09:53 how may we help you? 00:09:55 i'm supposed to say that ;) 00:09:59 heh, heh 00:10:12 wow, a channel without xena? could it be? 00:10:52 tis true, though incarnations have been known to stop by 00:11:08 ah, so this channel is the reason that our bots have "ster" suffixes on them 00:12:08 paje (~paje@slxwy.dorms.usu.edu) has joined #openacs 00:12:11 moo 00:12:15 cow 00:12:19 paje: aaronsw? 00:12:20 bugger all, i dunno, rbm 00:12:58 moo 00:22:22 hey AaronSw, have you met paje? 00:22:31 paje: who are you? 00:22:31 i think i am the medicine man and oracle in Amazonian tribes. I'm also a recipient of church of mike's "full deal" package 00:23:31 * rbm notes that scanning at 400dpi can take quite a long time on his wimpy computer 00:34:13 paje has quit ("regrouping; bbiab") 00:36:44 paje (~paje@slxwy.dorms.usu.edu) has joined #openacs 00:37:30 sbp has left #openacs 00:45:06 java is sloooooooooooow 00:45:47 paje, nice to meet you 00:45:48 AaronSw: sorry... 00:45:55 pff 00:45:59 AaronSw has left #openacs 00:48:00 aaronsw is touchy 00:48:26 talli: Every Java-lover that I talk to seems completely delusioned to think that Java is fast 00:48:46 fast in comparison to what? 00:49:05 for what it is it may be fast 00:49:18 When they tell me what Java is fast, I ask them "What machine do you develop on?" and they usually reply "Oh, on Athlon XP 1900 with 1 Gb of RAM and 7200 RPM SCSI disks. Nothing much." 00:49:29 haha 00:49:58 i guess it's fast enough if you're running everything on an e450 00:50:13 but then, imagine what an e450 can really do with good C code 00:50:33 I think that was the entire purpose of Sun's creation of Java: Sell more hardware because the thing is so darn slow 00:50:41 could be 00:51:17 There are so many other interpreted languages out there and none of them are as slow as java 00:51:21 i know its heresy, but i've actually started to become impressed by java's speed... 00:51:30 when the app is well designed 00:51:54 specifically i mean lucene, which is incredible 00:52:08 hazmat: Then show me this fast java app. I'd be glad to look at it and find out I'm wrong. 00:52:26 lucene.com (jakarta redirect) 00:52:51 its a library for text indexing, i've used it to index around a gig of text over the network from nntp servers. 00:53:37 searches are blazingly fast ( < .05s) , indexing had constant memory characterstics around 16mb (lucene only used 1mb heap). 00:54:05 err... searches after the initial search (when index is loaded) were fast. 00:54:53 and to be honest java is faster than most scripting languages. 00:55:12 compiled languages usually are, aren't they? 00:55:22 i was using GUI jav 00:55:23 java 00:55:37 most scripting languages are byte-compiled for a language vm, nowadays. 00:56:18 i never really used a gui java app... i think that has something to do with sun's choice not to use heavy weight peers, and to instead reimplemnt a drawing toolkit... 00:56:58 i never really bought into java on the client side... 01:09:14 hazmat: Can you show me some numbers wrt to speed of java vs other scripting languages? I only care about Python/Perl/Tcl. My experience with Java apps vs other scripting apps is the opposite. 01:11:07 minus startup time, java is definitely faster than python.. i don't have numbers off hand though.. the fact that types can be inferenced from bytecode allows signifigant virtual machine speed up. quite frankly java has alot of money and engineers to throw at the problem of speed. 01:15:11 Again, I don't see that happening on the real world. Money doesn't really equal a good product. Look at ACS 4.6 for a good example. 01:17:05 java also has had the time to become much better, i think the acs4.6 would have been much better given time. 01:26:16 til (~tils@port-212-202-128-195.reverse.qsc.de) has joined #openacs 01:39:42 hazmat: we can generate our XML with nsxml or nsexpat C modules. Much faster,but probably a standard format would be easier with a template. 01:41:34 talli: also the new category stuff is being design with dublin-core in mind. 01:41:46 booya 01:45:26 talli: did you see this "You should see the templating system that Jon and I did. I wonder where that is now. :) 01:45:26 -- Lars Pind, March 5, 2002 01:45:27 " 01:45:43 no 01:45:51 talli has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:47:01 talli (~talli@talli.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 01:47:19 i'll ask lars about that 01:47:42 cool. don already did on the bboard. 01:47:58 I was looking for a message and I can't remember what it was.... 01:48:30 * rbm heads to his photo class 01:49:08 cool. 01:51:15 ah,found it. 01:56:29 davb, is that lars quote from the boards or from his site? 01:57:35 the bboard 01:58:08 ah,ok 01:58:11 http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0004By&topic_id=12&topic=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Design 02:26:19 is there a command to load an sql file from inside psql? 02:26:42 man psql 02:27:19 heh, right, thanks! 02:28:08 its \i 02:31:16 * hazmat is reading up sane so he can scan in his pictures from the python conference... 04:16:50 hazmat: Sane is tricky, but once installed it's sweet 04:19:59 BTW, use xsane instead of xscanimage. It is _a lot_ better. 04:20:08 xsane 0.8.4 even has support for negatives. 04:27:10 rbm: cool. thanks for the tips 04:33:52 til has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 04:39:00 what scanner is this? 04:44:07 none at the moment, i'm trying to pick which one to buy. 04:44:15 any recommendations? 04:45:23 * davb like epson. 04:45:29 but I have a Umax 1220p. 04:47:07 do you like your umax? how does it connect? scsi/usb/pp 04:47:23 parallel. 04:47:31 it works good, but its old. 04:47:47 get a USB or SCSI. parllel is slow. 04:48:10 Umax has one that has a transparency adapter and is USB for around $99 these days. 04:48:15 hmm... i'd like to get a scsi if at all possible. my laptop came with a free umax scanner but its not supported under linux, and doesn't really work on windows either. 04:48:30 ah. weird accessory for a laptop. 04:48:38 i'd prefer scsi since i'm still running a 2.2 kernel for my desktop machine. 04:48:56 it was either that or a bubble jet printer :( 04:48:59 scsi is the best way to go if you can support it. which I assume you can. 04:49:02 ah ok. 04:49:31 darn. the sane driver for my scanner is only supported on sane 1.07 as a patch against the CVS. 04:52:28 * davb is finally almost done with his algebra review! 05:29:41 davb has quit ("Client Exiting") 05:31:24 talli has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 05:31:24 andyn has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 05:31:24 shagster has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 05:36:06 talli (~talli@talli.dialup.access.net) has joined #OpenACS 05:36:06 andyn (~andy@12-254-190-230.client.attbi.com) has joined #OpenACS 05:36:06 shagster (~mkovach@63.90.248.161) has joined #OpenACS 05:51:49 http://www.labourstart.org/opera.shtml 05:51:50 A: http://www.labourstart.org/opera.shtml from talli 05:52:50 A: a "Free" web browser for unions 05:52:50 commented item A 05:53:17 A: the reason why working with nonprofits. they are usually completely clueless. this is opera 5.11. why they ignored truely free browsers, who knows... 05:53:17 commented item A 05:58:02 ola talli 05:58:35 talilee (~talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 06:00:05 shagster has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:00:05 talli has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:00:05 andyn has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:02:53 andyn (~andy@12-254-190-230.client.attbi.com) has joined #OpenACS 06:02:54 shagster (~mkovach@63.90.248.161) has joined #OpenACS 06:02:54 talilee is now known as talli 06:09:59 jim (~jim@12-233-187-5.client.attbi.com) has joined #openacs 06:10:06 Hi... 06:10:13 rbm: ayh? 06:12:11 shagster has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:12:11 andyn has quit (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 06:12:22 anyway... 06:12:41 got your email; dealing with the advocacy now 06:24:25 andyn (~andy@12-254-190-230.client.attbi.com) has joined #OpenACS 06:24:25 shagster (~mkovach@63.90.248.161) has joined #OpenACS 06:27:44 jim: hey there 06:27:46 paje: seen jim? 06:27:47 jim was last seen on #openacs 15 minutes and 6 seconds ago, saying: got your email; dealing with the advocacy now [Tue Mar 5 23:14:42 2002] 06:27:57 almost got it done 06:28:03 cool 06:28:09 what did you think of my package? 06:28:12 hazmat has quit (Remote closed the connection) 06:28:21 haven't checked it out yet :) 06:28:33 but here's what I'm sayin about ya :) 06:28:39 (quote) 06:28:41 Roberto is one of two coleaders in the openacs project, and he wants 06:28:41 to maintain OpenACS in the form of debian packages. I interviewed him 06:28:41 extensively on his skills and participation in the free software 06:28:41 community: his scripting skills are at least sufficient to do 06:28:49 packaging, and his participation includes coleading a group of 06:28:49 volunteers that took the GPL part of the web toolkit known as 06:28:49 ArsDigita Community System and altering it such that all the pieces it 06:28:49 uses can be built out of all-GPL software. I have determined that a 06:28:58 debian developer, Erik Andersen, is close to Roberto's location, and 06:28:58 have arranged that they might communicate to sign keys. I am given to 06:28:58 understand they will get together for the key signing this coming 06:28:58 weekend. I believe Roberto will make a fine addition to the Debian 06:29:02 developer community. Pending the key signing and identity check, I do 06:29:03 hereby advocate Roberto Mello to become a Debian developer. 06:29:26 time frame of the key signing correct? 06:29:30 cool, thanks 06:29:31 Yes. 06:30:08 ok, 06:32:19 sheesh, 06:32:32 hd died where I had a coupla oacses 06:34:30 :( 06:35:06 I even built a package I was getting ready to use :/ 06:35:22 hey, wanna help me make it better when I write it again/ 06:35:23 ? 06:35:44 it took me an hour or two to get it where it was 06:37:07 hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #openacs 06:37:11 I'll get it that far again, then I wanna get suggestions for what to do about db stuff... in its pure/primitive form, no db work is done 06:38:14 check your rmello@fslc.usu.edu email 06:40:36 jkhong (~jkhong@202.151.220.51) has joined #openacs 06:42:32 just checked the web page... you're now one section further down :) 06:48:58 I been wanting to try the XP thing with a package... 06:49:12 except remotely 06:51:08 jkhong has left #openacs 06:52:38 jim: what XP thing? 06:52:48 jim: What package? If I can help, sure. 06:52:57 eXtreme Programming 06:53:00 gimp-print rocks! It totally rocks! 06:53:14 rbm: key signature drill 06:53:29 Ah, XP. I've been wanting to learn more about that. 06:55:29 jim: what you sent me is just for my records right? 06:55:41 6-10 people who pair up at 3-5 terminals (different pairings each time)... one in pair has keyboard, and is concerned with implementation issues... other, observer, does overall view, offers design criticism and such 06:55:46 rbm: yes... 06:56:13 jim: Yes, also with XP you have to have test cases before writing any code right? 06:56:15 you should also have received a note from craig small (automailed) that says you'll get an AM sometime soon 06:56:21 yes, Idid 06:56:51 BTW, I liked writing man pages with docbook a lot more than with the regular nroff syntax. It's more verbose, but A LOT more readable and understandable. 06:57:15 Thank goodness for docbook-to-man 06:57:47 umm, I forgot a lot about XP... I bought an "what is XP" type book, so I was able to read about it, I like some things, not others 06:59:06 Hey, I have a packages question for you 06:59:11 ok 06:59:22 let's see if I remember enuf to answer :) 06:59:30 This package that I sent you, irmp3, is a package that I indeed would like to add to Debian. 06:59:34 I haven't packaged anything in awhile 06:59:40 ok 07:00:08 However, it has two optional dependencies, LCDProc (for LCD displays) and LIRC (for remote controls with infrared) 07:00:40 In irmp3's current state, this has to be specified at build time, no loadable modules. 07:01:20 So what should I do? Have 4 different packages? irmp3, irmp3-lcdproc, irmp3-lirc, irmp3-all ? 07:01:56 brb 07:02:21 what if you built them together, and have one package and have it be an option in a config file? 07:02:35 so, one package that has a config file 07:03:21 (but don't take my word as anything but a suggestion of a possible style) 07:03:56 how large would irmp3-all be? 07:04:27 in packaged form, that is 07:04:40 oh, unpackaged it should be like 500Kb 07:04:57 that's very small... 07:06:04 how much of that is the binaries (including executables, libs, anything else needed to run it not provided by a separate package)? 07:06:20 BUt the thing is lirc and lcdproc are packages of themselves. Both of them are deamons, irmp3 just compiles part of them in itself statically 07:06:36 Or maybe I'm wrong there... let me check 07:07:05 often, developers will change the "shape" 07:07:31 are these packages also yours? 07:08:00 jim: no. 07:08:17 ok... 07:08:43 I think what I said above is no longer true. Was just looking at the new verison of irmp3 and it doesn't require it to find the lirc sources to build anymore, only if you want to use the functionality. 07:08:52 I might go for one package that has everything, and add commandline and configfile switches 07:08:55 So I would put lirc and lcdproc in suggests 07:09:10 (which means you might be writing an option parser) 07:09:46 irmp3's config file lets you specify "LIRC = 0" 07:10:00 that's a build config? 07:10:20 Yes, but also a config file option. 07:10:26 (runtime) 07:10:39 Man, this printer is _awesome_. 07:10:50 so that already exists... you can build it in, then turn it off? 07:12:23 yes 07:12:43 maybe here, I' 07:13:12 d go to the trouble of checking the size with and without the static inclusion 07:14:21 if not-including it reduces the package total from 500k to 480k, big deal :) include, turn it off 07:15:50 otoh, if it reduces it to 20k (sheesh, that would be big) then I might possibly implement a lib 07:16:13 and dynamically link to that lib from the package 07:16:27 good point 07:18:03 then you'd set a build-depend on that lib 07:18:27 (apt-get can grab what's needed to -build- a package) 07:18:37 Oh 07:18:46 Guess I haven't learned about that yet :) 07:18:57 It looks like I do need lirc.h, but that's all. 07:19:22 so you call functions, but it's not inlined code? 07:20:42 I guess so. 07:21:32 liblircclient-dev - Development files for LIRC client library 07:21:39 I think I'd need that. 07:25:55 Wow, if I hadn't printed this myself, I wouldn't be able to tell it wasn't a real photo print. 07:34:51 question... why not link dynamically? 07:35:07 I don't think it needs to. 07:35:24 I think all irmp3 needs is the lirc_client.h available at build time. 07:35:29 also, can you make use of the loader? 07:35:48 which loader? 07:35:57 and the lib itself? or no? 07:38:02 (that would be a build depend on that library, and either you build statically and don't depend on the lib at package install time, or dynamically, and -do- have a non-build dep in addition to the build dep 07:38:20 right 07:38:22 ) 07:38:43 so you have some styles to choose from... 07:41:05 right 08:02:45 * rbm goes to bed 08:10:57 nite 09:56:17 jkhong (~jkhong@202.151.212.103) has joined #openacs 10:03:39 jkhong has quit ("Client Exiting") 10:21:06 dlk (dlk@walter.ita.chalmers.se) has joined #openacs 11:35:11 jkhong (~jkhong@202.151.212.17) has joined #openacs 11:49:07 jkhong_ (~jkhong@202.151.212.46) has joined #openacs 11:49:08 jkhong has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:55:13 jkhong_ has left #openacs 11:55:14 jkhong_ (~jkhong@202.151.212.46) has joined #openacs 12:08:07 jkhong_ has quit ("Client Exiting") 13:44:56 markd2 (~markd2@r-41.176.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 13:48:23 davb (~dave@rrcs-nys-24-97-22-203.biz.rr.com) has joined #openacs 13:53:51 data conversion death-march continues 14:06:52 data conversion? of which? :) 14:11:03 til (~tils@port-212-202-128-195.reverse.qsc.de) has joined #openacs 14:14:28 talilee (~talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 14:14:28 talli has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:14:51 connection reset by beer 15:01:36 jkhong (~jkhong@202.151.220.115) has joined #openacs 15:09:21 day-job, enable to access 15:10:45 ahh 15:11:12 * jim is attempting to install openacs on a *bsd box 15:12:10 cool. 15:12:20 is that in the install guide? 15:12:29 talilee has left #openacs 15:24:36 yeah 15:24:55 umm, aolserver-3.4... can I use that one? 15:33:06 ok, nm, the docs say yes, but patch the tcl 15:48:46 dlk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:51:13 jkhong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:00:14 vinod (~vinod@209-122-233-11.s1821.apx2.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs 16:01:32 howdy vinod! 16:01:39 hey davb! 16:01:49 re vinod 16:01:52 funkin' � 16:01:59 hey jim 16:02:08 markd2!! 16:02:14 Vinod!! 16:02:24 hiya markd2 16:02:34 i'm character-set clueless 16:03:00 just look at this channel :) 16:03:24 it's a character set if I ever seed one :) 16:03:30 haha 16:03:40 true true, even without talli here 16:03:42 � �m n�t f�nky as th�y 16:04:03 character set theory 16:04:11 x� + y + � 16:04:21 wow - look at rbm 16:04:39 cool! 16:04:58 davb: i like the new "get-to-know-dave" weblog! 16:05:34 now, i can stop reloading badgertronics.com every 10 seconds 16:05:40 �/� + �� 16:05:46 2c3o4l5o7r 16:05:51 whoa 16:05:53 GNO! No color! 16:05:57 :) 16:05:59 sorry :) 16:07:29 thanks vinod! 16:07:30 heh 16:08:12 I am going to add alot more links to the other sections and then add categories for everything. 16:08:22 then hopefully I can find something when I am looking for it. 16:08:37 I need to convert my PotsgreSQL Cookbook to OACS 4 and then will move my site to it. 16:08:45 cool. 16:08:56 what's your site again davb? I want to take another peak 16:09:05 http://www.thedesignexperience.org 16:09:35 also I need to add comments. but I am waiting until the bboard/comments acs-messaging mess is fixed. 16:09:54 oh... did your comment get deleted after 24 hrs? 16:10:15 no. only if you have bboard installed. it assumes it owns all acs_message type content. 16:10:31 ahhh 16:10:54 the package should be checking to make sure it owns the content before deleting it. and g-c should probably have its own type subtyped off content-revision anyway. 16:11:41 acs-message is messed up that way too, because it doesn't let you call acs_message__new with a different object_type. it automatically inserts 'acs_message' 16:12:07 that is because noone understood the CR. 16:13:50 davb: This weblog is ETP? 16:13:54 markd2: you use SuSE, right? 16:13:56 rbm: yes. 16:14:01 davb: cool 16:14:15 vinod: yep 16:14:48 is there a utility that does what chkconfig does on RH or update-rc.d on Debian (i.e. update the rc.d files)? 16:15:01 update? 16:15:05 I had to dig into the etp procs to build the home page. I would rather have a portal type thing so I can ask a package for some content to add in a box instead of custom queries. 16:15:18 yast? 16:15:23 bbiab 16:15:39 Anybody knows how's th portal package doing? 16:15:46 markd2: like if you install a postgres startup script into /etc/rc.d/init.d, can you automatically link it from the appropriate rc[0-6].d directories 16:15:55 or do you have to make manual symlinks 16:16:10 vinod: There's rcconf on Debian too. 16:16:24 that I don't know 16:16:24 suse is kinda strange... I forget where it puts things 16:16:37 rbm: thanks - haven't used that 16:16:39 I'm pretty much a hack-and-slasher since I use Weird Software 16:16:52 one thing I liked about suse is /etc/rc.config 16:16:57 ok - just wondering :-) 16:17:04 it' 16:17:15 it's -everything- in one fiel 16:24:18 everything what? 16:40:33 denshi (~chatzilla@adsl-216-62-223-193.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs 16:48:30 http://www.fogcreek.com/CityDesk/ 16:48:31 B: http://www.fogcreek.com/CityDesk/ from rbm 16:48:46 B:|Content-Management through a desktop app. 16:48:46 titled item B 16:49:02 B:An interesting idea for a desktop-version of ETP 16:49:02 commented item B 16:56:06 Cool, an IE 5.5 and above bug that lets anyone run any program on the client's box without ActiveScript. 16:57:36 yay! 16:57:41 progress! 16:58:01 soon the advance of Microsoft Technology will allow systems to be exploited without them ever being connected to the internet 17:00:09 http://security.greymagic.com/adv/gm001-ie/ 17:00:10 C: http://security.greymagic.com/adv/gm001-ie/ from rbm 17:00:22 C:|IE 5.5 and superior bug 17:00:22 titled item C 17:33:35 http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0004DY&topic_id=11&topic= 17:33:38 +OpenACS 17:33:39 D: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0004DY&topic_id=11&topic= from davb 17:33:39 vinod has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 17:33:39 argh 17:33:57 D: "But most importantly, the Java community is almost TOO big. Its full of good 17:33:58 ideas, good startpoints and lots of clever people doing their 'thing'. 17:33:58 Unfortunately I did find that it lacks coordination and too much software is 17:33:58 re-inventing wheels, or just never really gets finished. 17:33:58 commented item D 17:34:01 argh again 17:34:08 heh 17:34:10 i hate invisible CRs 17:34:16 anyway, that is a great quote 17:35:01 who said that? 17:35:03 D: [correct link|http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0004DY&topic_id=11&topic=OpenACS] 17:35:04 commented item D 17:35:40 D: " But most importantly, the Java community is almost TOO big. Its full of good ideas, good startpoints and lots of clever people doing their 'thing'. Unfortunately I did find that it lacks coordination and too much software is re-inventing wheels, or just never really gets finished." 17:35:40 commented item D 17:35:51