00:00:14 is --with-tcl necessary for oacs-4.5b? 00:01:13 I don't think so. 00:01:31 cool... 00:02:02 thanks :) 00:02:36 maybe search needs --with-tcl 00:03:00 Yeah, I was just thinking of that. OpenACS 3.x searching needs PL/Tcl, not sure about 4 00:03:34 well, I think 3 only needed pltcl for the bboard search 00:03:37 i think i heard something like "the new openfts needs --with-tcl" recently, dont know if "new" means the one that is currently used 00:05:27 say I wanted to use 4.2.0 final with pg-7.2... anything like that possible? 00:05:50 jim: s/4.2/4.5/, yes. 00:06:17 jim: http://www.brasileiro.net:8000/ is running openacs 4.5 pre-beta on PG 7.2 00:06:50 denshi has quit (Remote closed the connection) 00:07:50 oop, it made an error when I tried to look at your publ bookmarks :) 00:08:12 what's the difference between pre-beta and alpha? 00:08:29 a few charactors? 00:08:31 :) 00:10:20 jim: Hmmm, maybe I forgot to restart after I enabled the modules 00:10:22 talli: alpha was a release. we are installing on the CVS bleeding edge. 00:10:24 jim: hang on 00:10:55 talli: pre-beta is what's on CVS now and includes everything that has been changed since alpha was released 00:14:02 denshi (~chatzilla@adsl-216-62-223-193.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs 00:19:37 talli, if I ever say anything about language design again, feel free to smack me. 00:24:08 denshi, how come? 00:24:29 were you put in your place by some 30 year hacker who told you about the culled features of fortran? 00:25:03 "denshi, when will you learn? we dropped that from cobol cuz it kept us from drawing bunny rabbits on punch cards!" 00:25:08 start here: 00:25:09 http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html 00:25:09 A: http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html from denshi 00:25:37 A: Olin Shiver's history of T, the first production-level lisp with lexical scoping. 00:25:37 commented item A 00:26:00 then follow the relevant disserations produced by that. 00:26:40 at the same time, read what you can find about the implementation of lisp interpreters. Try not to freak out. 00:27:28 link A details a summer project that directly created *5* disserations and 1 master's thesis. 00:28:32 just reading this stuff is a fabulous lesson in recursion; given the number of phrases that are undefined to the layman. 00:29:35 ok, i've hit my limit 00:29:38 what the hell is the point? 00:29:53 (and my mom is calling me to dinner ;)) 00:30:09 the point is when you go far beyond that limit, and see what top-notch nerds can do. 00:30:14 ah 00:30:15 ok 00:30:24 so? 00:30:30 are you not a top notch nerd? 00:30:31 It's humbling, and grates at me how much extra education they have had available to them. 00:30:39 I'm just bitter today. 00:30:42 ah, ok 00:30:56 be back after dinner 00:30:58 maybe I'll be a top notch nerd in a few years. 00:31:01 have fun. 00:31:03 i'll have a schnitzel for you denshi 00:31:19 save me some matzolah soup. 00:54:21 anybody tried to setup cvsweb with oacs 4? 00:54:40 rbm, why not try setting up subversion? 00:54:55 talli: Because I don't have root on this machine 00:55:03 it seems to be pretty stable now. at least, if you're used to playing oacs early, it might be cool 00:55:03 oh 00:55:23 and because I need a web interface to CVS, not a whole other software management system :0 00:55:31 ah 00:55:48 rbm, do you have root access to teh OACS server? 00:56:15 and because I don't have python installed here, otherwise I'd use viewcvs, whose code I can actually read, unlike this piece of snot that cvsweb's perl code is. 00:56:38 jim: did you hear that? rbm is dissing perl, AGAIN! 00:56:39 go at him 00:56:42 talli: Through sudo, yes 00:56:58 talli: I said cvsweb's perl code, not perl code in general. 00:57:00 who's got root? 00:57:31 ben, don and I, I think. 00:57:41 ah, ok, so you do have it 00:58:03 yeah, through sudo. 00:58:04 what is the difference between having root and having it through sudo? 00:58:15 meaning you don't have a serial connectivity? 00:58:48 with sudo you can restrict which commands someone can execute as root. In our case, Ben just gave us full root access through sudo. The advantage is that he doesn't have to tell us the root password for us to become root. 00:59:00 ah, ok 00:59:15 well, the reason i ask is that the new openacs.org really shuold be sitting on the new box 00:59:28 no reason to do dev on it on our box and hten have to move everything 00:59:33 might as well move it now 00:59:41 Do you want to move the new oacs.org to openacs.org? I'm good with that. 01:00:00 no, i think we should move it tentatively to something like new.openacs.org 01:00:12 We'd have to ask Ben to make a DNS entry for new.openacs.org or whatever we'll call it. 01:00:12 then, when it's all good and ready just make it live 01:00:17 ok 01:00:25 whatever 01:01:10 There would be some logistical problems too because you'd need to be able to restart the aolserver process, but since it'll probably be running on port 8000 anyways, that shouldn't be much of a problem. 01:01:47 staging.openacs.org ? that way it could be useful later too ... 01:02:05 rbm, do you think there would be interest in having OACS participate in the dotgnu project? 01:02:24 talli: I don't see why not 01:02:37 I haven't really looked at dotgnu yest 01:02:47 there's not much to look at, really 01:02:55 except portable.net, which is rocking the house 01:03:08 it's one guy hacking in australia and he's keeping up with mono 01:03:26 he had a six-month headstart, but he also bootstrapped totally on linux 01:03:32 mono bootstrapped on win 01:03:45 Have you read "Hackers of Our Lives"? 01:03:46 cool. 01:03:48 portable.net is written in C, mono is written in C# 01:04:01 no, what's that rbm 01:04:26 http://www.advogato.org/article/430.html 01:04:26 B: http://www.advogato.org/article/430.html from rbm 01:04:43 the reason i think that being involved in dotgnu might be cool is to benefit from the community of similar minded projects trying to coordinate web services 01:04:44 B:|"Hacks of Our Lives" Soap-Opera 01:04:44 titled item B 01:05:17 i guess. but i'm kind of in the camp that doesn't trust miguel 01:05:22 or, rather, ximian 01:06:09 what's the crossover between ximian & the original gnome guys? 01:07:12 talli: Have you read the above yet? 01:07:19 i did read it 01:07:30 before 01:08:06 because I don't know if any of you were punching out bugs in gnome back in '98, but gnome still remains in my memory as one of the most hideous pieces of software I have ever seen the source to. 01:09:12 oops. 01:09:16 s/(\w+\ )[5]^/to which I have seen the source/ 01:09:32 I need little grammar regexes to follow me around. 01:10:32 i don't know how much VC money ximian got, but they sure act like they got a lot 01:10:43 at least, they had one of the biggest spaces at linuxworld 01:11:14 and red carpet acts a lot like some of the other more obnoxious update tools 01:11:25 I don't know how ximian plans to make money 01:11:44 good point 01:11:53 The only thing I know they sell is the adpator for exchange 01:11:58 i think the VCs are going to decide that 01:12:02 yeah :( 01:12:08 and the faster access to red carpet, but I don't anyone who likes it. 01:13:06 i'm not into those pay-2-update services, at least i'm willing to take the extra time to learn debian (or BSD) to avoid them 01:13:29 i was going to use up2date, until i was blocked by redhat because of "peak download time" 01:14:49 i suppose it might make sense if i was a biznarse that had a bunch of servers and just HAD to pay someone 01:15:10 I just can't take Mono seriously. 01:16:05 denshi, what're your feelings about it? 01:16:16 I still haven't drank the entire .NET kool-aid, so I feel misinformed to comment. 01:16:42 1) Gnome sucks. I mean really sucks. 01:17:22 1.a) they reinvented many things, and for specious reasons. It didn't really pay off. 01:18:12 1.b) it's still sucking at high speed, but after 5? years it's pretty decent. But that's no excuse for 5 years. 01:18:59 1.c) I'm still amazed that Gnome exists; that the OSS community could flag the Qt/KDE issue into such a flame fest that Gnome was taken seriously. 01:19:22 1.d) check that -- Gnome was started intentionally *because* of the Qt license issue. 01:19:24 I'm not really familiar with gnome internals, but I see that they reinvented a lot of stuff in the form of libraries instead of just doing "the unix way" of re-using little tools doing each a small job 01:19:39 rbm: you'd really rather not know. 01:20:16 i think that's why they're so into .NET 01:20:18 So, in 1, my summary is that, in my experience, the Gnome guys are both incompetent and motivated by political reasons. 01:20:23 denshi: So what's with gnome internals? I know this one guy in Brazil who hangs out in #debian-br who keeps telling me Gnome is beautiful 01:20:58 yes, I think it's very cute that they're into .NET -- given that they release MS-quality stuff, they make an excellent match. 01:21:01 I don't know if the Gnome developers (besides Miguel) have anything to do with .NET and mono 01:21:35 rbm: that's why I was asking what the crossover is. It's a sincere question in my attempt to determine if Mono is for real. 01:21:38 well, Mono is a ximian sponsored project 01:21:56 But I have more reasons: 01:22:53 2) after reading several disserations last month about optimizing lisp compilers, I have enormous respect for the supernerds who can code serious runtimes. 01:23:10 2.a) I don't think I'll find much in common between them and Gnome. 01:23:33 talli: But Gnome isn't 01:23:56 but ximian-Gnome is 01:23:57 and finally, 3) Is it just me, or is the common runtime completely blown out of proportion? 01:24:12 and ximian-gnome probably has a pretty strong influence on the rest of Gnome 01:24:42 i have a feeling that a common runtime, if it ever really works, will lead to some of the worst, most unreadable code in history 01:25:11 talli may be right. But what I'm getting at is that language interoperability has been around for a long time. 01:26:58 CLI might be cool. but i think you would need some really heavy, hardcore programmers to be able to build a system with it well 01:27:54 for instance, scheme48's module system could take an argument of the parser used to read in a file; so you could use several languages which would all be parsed into a common sexpre format internally. 01:28:14 and everyone in creation know how to link to libraries in different languages. 01:29:35 MS has some really smart guys, so i imagine a CLI might be pretty cool for many applications. 01:29:56 and denshi, does anyone use Scheme48 anymore? 01:30:07 I just don't know what you can do with CLI that you can't do now. Mostly I'm guessing that the win here is to pass around objects in a common binary standard, so that many languages can funge with the same spot of memory. I don't think that's a good thing. 01:31:08 how come? 01:32:24 well, isn't that the opposite of OO design that the entire industry has bought into? 01:34:43 denshi, if you're interested in playing around with the internals of a new language, check out the portable.net project 01:34:48 some serious work is going into that 01:34:51 they need help, too 01:35:07 url? 01:35:13 but from what i hear, both mono and portable.net (perhaps even MS's CLR) are like two years from ready 01:35:19 http://www.dotgnu.org 01:35:19 C: http://www.dotgnu.org from talli 01:35:32 C: the dotGNU project 01:35:32 commented item C 01:35:46 http://www.southern-storm.com.au/portable_net.html 01:35:46 D: http://www.southern-storm.com.au/portable_net.html from talli 01:35:54 D: Portable.NET project homepage 01:35:54 commented item D 01:36:27 oh, and the FAQ for pnet actually deals with technical matters, rather than spin 01:36:38 wtf is up with all these groups implementing C#? 01:36:49 dunno 01:36:55 but i do hear that C# is really cool 01:37:36 i know someone that is working on an ASP.NET project, though, and he says that with the whole .net thing MS is just "catching up" 01:37:51 i asked him was ASP.NET is, and apparently it's ASP but more "OO" 01:37:57 which is, uh, gross 01:38:53 C# is tiny tweak off of Java. If all these people want a Java clone, but more open (since C# is being submitted to ISO), then I could get that. But it doesn't make any sense; that such a wide swatch of the OSS community would, for purely technical reasons, choose this same language as the focus point for a CLI. 01:39:10 yeah, that's a good point 01:39:27 i still buy rolf's point about if you want to use Java, why not use C++? 01:39:33 at least that is proven tech 01:40:40 You'd expect to see people doing it in MLs, in Scheme, in Hackell/C++ for gods sake. 01:41:16 the scary thing is that most uni's are now teaching java in the data structures classes 01:41:54 now, i wasn't such a big fan of perl (but i'm not a big fan of programming) for my net programming class, but java seems a bit much 01:42:19 maybe they do it so their students can put java on their resumes 01:42:29 ten bucks that's why my school does it now 01:42:31 that and the professors. 01:42:41 the profs being bought, you mean? 01:42:42 remember, not everyone gets tenure. 01:42:49 oh yeah, good point 01:43:41 but at tufts, the tenured professors teach the intro level classes as well. 01:44:01 the non-tenured teachers are the ones in the backrooms doing research and slaving away 01:44:11 s/teachers/professors 01:44:14 I don't understand undergraduate CS. What can you teach for data structures in Java that you can't pick up on the job? 01:44:35 lots of people take data structures, at least at tufts, that are not CS majors 01:44:46 so even though i bombed it, it was a good intro 01:45:26 actually, i didn't bomb it. i just hated it so much i would fall asleep trying to study it and so could never absorb what the hell a stack was. i really hated that shit 01:46:02 oh, here's a good lesson in data structures: 01:46:03 http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html 01:46:03 E: http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html from denshi 01:46:19 E: Paul Graham's "On LISP", online. 01:46:20 commented item E 01:46:28 Read chapter 6 for an amazing insight. 01:47:04 how's his new language coming along? 01:47:12 have you ever taken a look at REBOL? 01:47:17 http://www.rebol.com 01:47:17 F: http://www.rebol.com from talli 01:47:31 F: new language developed by Carl Sassenrath (sp?) 01:47:31 commented item F 01:47:42 F: unfortunately, not free (as in beer or speech) 01:47:42 commented item F 01:48:12 it's supposed to be mondo cool 01:48:16 rebol's been around for a while. 01:48:25 and that carl dude is supposedly a genius, as he build the amigaOS 01:48:30 it's only cool b/c it has nice pronouns. 01:48:39 oh yeah? you're not a dan? 01:48:40 fan 01:48:44 how about curl? 01:49:19 * denshi snickers 01:49:25 whoops 01:49:29 they just went out of business, if you didn't notice. 01:49:35 no way! 01:50:00 uh, you sure? 01:50:12 they just announced that they raised 7 million dollars 01:50:35 of course, they sold their soul to do it 01:51:23 where did you see they went out of business? 01:51:46 sorry, my bad; it was just the CEO leaving. 01:51:51 fuckedcompany. 01:51:54 ah 01:52:05 yeah, a whole bunch of them left 01:52:10 and were replaced by VCs 01:52:16 so... they're doomed 01:52:34 they're doomed because there's no way the language will catch on. 01:53:03 maybe it's because while their language is supposed to deliver content, their site is written using JSPs 01:53:17 it's not open, there's no competition to push the language, and where's the incubation time? Languages take forever to catch on. 01:53:23 yeah 01:53:27 what about rebol? 01:53:51 seems you might need the size and cache of MS or Sun to be able to build and make money off of a language 01:54:19 and java's taken 5 years and billions of dollars to catch on 01:54:26 and it still doesn't wrok 01:54:27 work 01:55:11 it's been a while, but I thought the win with rebol was it has a small api crowded with networking features. 01:55:27 yeah, i think that's it 01:58:39 davb has quit (Remote closed the connection) 02:00:10 davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 02:03:20 denshi do you read: http://www.treedragon.com/ged/map/ti/new.htm 02:03:31 he has some stuff to say about .NET and CLR 02:03:36 never heard of it. 02:03:47 and he is writing his own language :) 02:04:01 let me find the CLR stuff 02:04:02 do you read narbonic.com? 02:04:06 nope. 02:04:09 don't look at this guys blog! 02:04:17 he links to aaron swartz!!! 02:04:20 stay away!!! 02:04:47 starting here can't hurt: http://www.treedragon.com/ged/map/ti/newFeb02.htm#27feb02 02:04:51 talli has a point. 02:04:57 haha 02:05:15 where is that little bugger? 02:05:20 he never comes around anymore 02:05:22 cool! 02:05:29 he is busy changing the world without us! 02:05:43 bastard 02:06:42 paje: aaronsw 02:06:43 talli: i'm not following you... 02:06:51 paje: seen aaronsw? 02:06:51 I haven't seen 'aaronsw', talli 02:07:49 I think he's busy working on taking over his school. 02:08:34 that kid needs some more homework 02:08:43 heh 02:08:49 ...and a concealed weapons permit. 02:08:55 funny! 02:09:13 haha 02:09:29 anyway, denshi, that guy has some great ideas on programming and langauages. 02:09:33 and some platform shoes 02:09:39 heh 02:10:52 denshi, you have any experience with smalltalk? 02:11:15 none at all. 02:11:45 oh. i thought that was the ultimate OOP language 02:12:37 it depends on who you ask I think :) 02:12:46 i ask denshi!!!! 02:13:22 so today we found out which all the stuff we neglected to prepare for the data coversion and had a panicked afternoon. 02:13:27 haha 02:13:39 you mean, like how you neglected to PLAN 02:13:40 ?? 02:13:43 heh 02:14:09 not my fault, noone listens to me. we did recover and made it back to where we thought we were at 10am when I said, oh shit. 02:15:31 thing is, noone there understands how a relational database works, not even the alleged consultant. 02:15:40 nice. 02:15:52 you're using access, though, right? 02:15:53 he's a nice guy anyway. 02:15:55 yes. 02:16:04 orbitz.com sucks. 02:16:10 so we don't actually _have_ a real relational database... :) 02:20:01 btw, an excellent web based application is the US Dept. of Ed FAFSA form. it is easy to use and hard to screw up. 02:20:44 uhoh: Title: Java Applet Can Redirect Browser Traffic 02:20:44 Date: 04 March 2002 02:20:44 Software: Microsoft Virtual Machine 02:20:44 Impact: Information Disclosure 02:20:44 Max Risk: Critical 02:20:45 Bulletin: MS02-013 02:23:54 What, can error in a Microsoft product? Nah...don't believe it :) 02:24:04 shagster! 02:24:11 Not after they spent the month of Febuary fixing it! 02:24:15 talli! 02:24:16 you lousy bastard 02:24:22 l8r guys 02:24:24 I'm still writing the specs 02:24:30 ah, neat 02:24:31 :) 02:24:32 later denshi 02:24:37 denshi has quit () 02:24:47 talli, you don't know me well enough to call me that -yet- :P 02:25:19 i'm trying to get in as many shots as i can before you take my balls 02:25:28 Heh :) 02:26:42 Okay, I think either the end of March of start of April I'm going to try and have a Cleveland, Ohio OpenACS social 02:27:45 Since somebody was nice enough to make a yearly donation for uptime, I have a few bucks to put towards the bar bill ^H^H^H^H^H^H expenses 02:30:46 rafa (rafa@ebt.ee.usyd.edu.au) has joined #openacs 02:30:57 hi 02:31:11 hi 02:31:51 any nes about the 4.5b release?. 02:32:16 Don is working on it, 'bout the only think I know 02:33:40 ok, thanks 02:34:05 You might check the bboards for more info though 02:34:12 I'm about a day behind right now 02:44:18 moo 02:45:12 oom 02:48:49 (__) 02:48:49 (oo) 02:48:49 /------\/ 02:48:49 / | || 02:48:49 * /\---/\ 02:48:49 ~~ ~~ 02:48:51 ...."Have you mooed today?"... 02:49:41 well, that is a personal question! :) 02:53:27 paje: apt? 02:53:27 rbm: wish i knew 02:54:05 paje: apt is the Advanced Package Tool, an ultra-cool and very nice package management front-end that works with .deb's and .rpm's 02:54:05 OK, rbm. 03:28:36 hmmmmm 03:28:46 ns_returnnotfound is crashing AOLserver without an error in the log 03:34:03 we need to fix the "you have to reboot every time you change something" MS-like behavior of OpenACS 03:34:49 ok ns_returnnotfound is definitely crashing aolserver without any sort of nice message. 03:35:56 hmmmm. I wonder what ns_returnnotfound is doing. 03:40:46 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.81.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 03:44:38 hi markd2 03:45:02 yo 03:45:32 can you think of any reason why calling ns_returnnotfound from a tcl file would crash aolserver with no errors or anything in the log? 03:46:02 bad mojo crashing aolserver from tcl 03:46:13 I'd run aolserver in gdb and look at the stack trace 03:46:14 yeah. 03:46:15 someone say mojo? 03:46:17 there may be something Obvious there 03:46:21 ah cool. thanks. 03:46:24 tailli has mega mojo 03:46:25 * talli hides his markd2 voodoo doll 03:46:31 * davb looks to see if gdb is installed 03:46:38 mojo argito, meester roboto 03:47:02 markd2, how's life outside of nebraska? 03:47:44 cold! 03:47:52 it was like 11 on the way over 03:47:56 gtg. catch folks tomorrow 03:47:58 markd2 has quit ("brrrrr") 03:48:00 late mar 03:48:45 ok. 03:48:46 til has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 03:55:50 argh 04:01:00 hmmm gdb seems to crash aolserver too! 04:07:46 anyone know how to use gdb? it seems to not like me. 04:10:22 nm 04:10:31 I got it to work, gdb that is 04:11:14 hmmm: Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 04:11:14 [Switching to Thread 4101 (LWP 3347)] 04:11:14 0x08116ce9 in TclReExec (re=0x876358c, string=0x8729e8c, len=62, 04:11:14 details=0x87635b4, nmatch=0, pmatch=0x876cd88, flags=0) 04:11:14 at ./../generic/regexec.c:171 04:11:15 171 int flags; 04:12:38 hmmm. maybe my aolserver is broken... 04:13:39 * davb rebuilds aolserver 04:19:47 ok still crashes. weird. 04:42:31 dlk (dlk@as2-1-4.va.g.bonet.se) has joined #openacs 04:43:28 davb has quit ("Client Exiting") 04:50:39 andyn (~andy@12-254-190-230.client.attbi.com) has joined #openacs 06:15:27 dlk has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 06:37:57 andyn has quit (Remote closed the connection) 06:37:57 talli has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:56:59 andyn (~andy@12-254-190-230.client.attbi.com) has joined #openacs 10:37:49 talli (~talli@talli.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 11:38:49 k2pts (~nkd@adsl-168-174.cytanet.com.cy) has joined #openacs 11:39:19 paje: seen talli? 11:39:19 talli was last seen on #openacs 7 hours, 51 minutes and 19 seconds ago, saying: late mar [Mon Mar 4 20:50:00 2002] 11:46:10 talli has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:49:54 paje: where is nowhere? 11:49:54 k2pts: wish i knew 11:50:08 paje: what's your favorite song? 11:50:08 bugger all, i dunno, k2pts 11:50:26 paje: do you like chicks? 11:50:26 no idea, k2pts 11:50:50 paje: insult paje :) 11:50:51 paje :) is nothing but a festering petrification of lumpish snake assholes. 11:51:18 paje: paje: paje: insult paje 11:51:19 k2pts: i'm not following you... 11:51:43