IRC log of openacs on 2002-02-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:13:11 [talilee]
talilee is now known as talli
00:26:09 [davb]
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00:27:07 [talli]
hey shagster, rbm, davb
00:27:20 [davb]
hi
00:30:11 [denshi]
denshi (~chatzilla@adsl-216-62-223-193.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs
00:30:28 [talli]
pass the mustard.
00:32:27 [davb]
hi denshi
00:34:44 [denshi]
beer, you're my only friend.
00:34:52 [denshi]
good evening, gentlemen.
00:36:14 [denshi]
davb, that 'secret life of numbers' link is pretty cool.
00:36:51 [davb]
thanks. I forget where I found it. I have been researching math books all day. I am trying to figure out what I need to learn.
00:50:26 [davb]
denshi: (or anyone else) do you have any opinions or experience on what math I might need for computer science
00:51:15 [davb]
Basically I want to understand this stuff: http://www.treedragon.com/ged/map/ti/newFeb02.htm#18feb02-math
00:52:24 [denshi]
discrete math (shhh...), followed by advanced algebra, followed by topology.
00:54:43 [denshi]
I think any coder could learn to use the stuff in that link, for instance, you could learn to code hypercube solutions in a weekend. But you'd need to theory to evaluate for instance, a hypercube-based Gnutella versus a cayley tree-based one.
00:55:37 [denshi]
that, at least, is my reason for going to for more math. I want to be able to look at a terabyte of genetic data and quickly identify the optimal representation.
00:57:51 [denshi]
oh, and you'll need some calculus as a minimum.
01:00:31 [denshi]
you should toss on some probability and a couple semesters of analysis -- reals, vectors, complex, whatever.
01:01:05 [davb]
cool.
01:01:20 [davb]
I am just a little overwhemled I guess. I started by relearning algebra :)
01:01:37 [denshi]
And you really want to take partial diff eq, mostly b/c you'll be forced to learn how to use computer to approximate solutions.
01:02:13 [davb]
interesting. Also, yes I want to understand the math behind this stuff.
01:02:34 [denshi]
PDEs are extra fun b/c they are each so individually bitchy. Many physics students have written their theses on just the solution of a difficult PDE.
01:08:22 [davb]
also I am trying to figure out how much I can learn basically on my own. I want to get a degree from Empire State College which basically is independent study.
01:09:41 [denshi]
I don't really know. I've learned everything I know about computers on my own, except for 'map' and parameterized types from a Haskell class at UT.
01:09:55 [denshi]
But I think Math is more difficult.
01:09:59 [davb]
I today found basically, hundreds of math books, on every subject from Dover Books. They are all fairly thin and really cheap. Reprints of out of print stuff.
01:10:16 [denshi]
The feedback loop is so much longer that you can't really reassert your time value.
01:10:22 [davb]
Well I went up to calculus before, so I know I just need to refresh on that stuff.
01:11:19 [denshi]
ooh, where did you get those dover books?
01:11:51 [davb]
I didn't actually order any, but Amazon has most of them. I use amazon for shopping and finding books, its an incredible tool.
01:12:00 [davb]
here is one:
01:12:01 [davb]
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/048668640X/ref=pd_sim_books/103-3563769-6662204
01:12:02 [chump]
A: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/048668640X/ref=pd_sim_books/103-3563769-6662204 from davb
01:12:22 [davb]
A:|A First Course in Partial Differential Equations With Complex Variables and Transform Methods (Dover Books on Mathematics)
01:12:22 [chump]
titled item A
01:12:50 [denshi]
I would collect old math books from professors when they retired.
01:12:53 [davb]
from there the "customers who bought this book" usually links to others in their series.
01:13:04 [davb]
Ah.
01:13:05 [denshi]
The timelessness of the books is pretty cool.
01:13:22 [davb]
Yes. I want to get this calculus book:
01:13:49 [denshi]
I used to carry around a pocket-sized differential equations book printed in 1933. A real conversation starter, that one.
01:14:55 [davb]
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312185480/ref=cm_mp_wli_/103-3563769-6662204?coliid=I28P6LW5TSPGR
01:14:55 [chump]
B: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312185480/ref=cm_mp_wli_/103-3563769-6662204?coliid=I28P6LW5TSPGR from davb
01:15:25 [davb]
210 pages, originally published in 1910
01:17:40 [denshi]
interesting.
01:17:41 [davb]
thanks for the advice! very helpful.
01:17:47 [denshi]
np.
01:18:26 [davb]
denshi: have you read any of gregory chaitin's stuff?
01:18:34 [denshi]
the 1933 book was kind of quaint -- diff eq was totally rewritten after los alamos introduced stepwise solutions.
01:18:42 [denshi]
I am not familiar with the name.
01:20:43 [davb]
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/CDMTCS/chaitin/
01:20:43 [chump]
C: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/CDMTCS/chaitin/ from davb
01:20:50 [davb]
C:|Gregory Chaitin's home page
01:20:50 [chump]
titled item C
01:20:54 [denshi]
ohh.. the halting problem.
01:21:20 [denshi]
okay, I need to reboot this POS so the printer will work again. bbl.
01:21:38 [denshi]
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01:22:36 [davb]
C: check out his alogrithmic information theory
01:22:36 [chump]
commented item C
01:23:03 [davb]
C: see Understandable Papers about mathematics, alot of interesting, easy to understand stuff, even I can get it!
01:23:03 [chump]
commented item C
01:42:07 [davb]
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02:40:26 [shagster]
Hmmm....
02:41:01 [talli]
yo shagster
02:41:29 [talli]
threaten anyone's scrotum today?
02:41:36 [shagster]
Nah, not today...
02:41:47 [shagster]
Calm day on the home front....
02:42:07 [talli]
damn. well, better luck tomorrow
02:42:20 [docwolf]
what's this about scrota?
02:42:21 [shagster]
Trying to get a nice patched aolserver-3.4.2-oacs1 out
02:42:37 [talli]
oh, cool
02:43:17 [shagster]
Yesterday I threatened a salesperson, either he gave me his boss' name, or I removed his "manhoods" :)
02:43:55 [talli]
keep going
02:44:00 [talli]
the story doesn't end there
02:44:09 [docwolf]
yikes
02:44:15 [shagster]
So somebody called the police ....
02:44:19 [docwolf]
uh-oh
02:44:32 [shagster]
And the cop suggested...he give me his boss' name
02:44:39 [docwolf]
HAHA
02:44:46 [talli]
no, you forgot to mention why did they call police?
02:44:56 [talli]
becuase when one guy told you...
02:45:17 [shagster]
HAHA.....
02:45:53 [shagster]
Oh tell him talli, I had to hear myself speak
02:47:30 [talli]
some guy said, "well the boss isn't here now"
02:47:43 [talli]
so shagster said, "ok, well then i guess i'll take your balls"
02:47:50 [docwolf]
holy crap
02:48:07 [docwolf]
was this deal for coke or crystal meth?
02:48:32 [shagster]
Internet bandwidth...
02:48:35 [Config_t]
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02:48:40 [docwolf]
even worse!
02:48:57 [shagster]
They had just sent me a bill for 3K for a circuit that wasn't working yet
02:49:05 [docwolf]
whoa
02:49:54 [shagster]
I wasn't happy...and normally I'm just a happy guy :)
02:50:17 [shagster]
* shagster looks for vinod
02:51:34 [Config_t]
Config_t has left #openacs
03:47:01 [shagster]
Okay AOLserver 3.4.2 - oacs1 source tree is available
03:47:16 [shagster]
(The Don-ux release)
03:47:17 [shagster]
:)
03:55:34 [talli]
i saw that. cool :)
04:18:17 [bartt]
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07:32:39 [ChanServ]
[#OpenACS] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
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10:28:15 [miguel_]
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10:28:26 [miguel_]
hi guys!!
10:52:20 [miguel_]
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11:56:18 [dlk]
dlk is now known as Pappux
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14:33:44 [davb]
http://www.wannabegirl.org/css/
14:33:44 [chump]
D: http://www.wannabegirl.org/css/ from davb
14:33:54 [dlk]
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14:34:07 [davb]
D:|Css Colouring Book : Tableless Layouts for the Masses
14:34:08 [chump]
titled item D
14:43:36 [Psychephylax]
heh
14:43:41 [Psychephylax]
stay between the lines
14:45:02 [davb]
:)
14:47:51 [Psychephylax]
Yay
14:47:57 [Psychephylax]
20 hours of overtime :)
14:48:01 [Psychephylax]
money money money!!!
14:49:04 [docwolf]
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14:55:53 [Psychephylax]
i go to the lab
14:55:54 [Psychephylax]
:)
15:15:19 [jim]
coffee coffee coffee!!!
15:22:14 [davb]
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5622
15:22:14 [chump]
E: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5622 from davb
15:22:23 [davb]
E:|XSLT Powers a New Wave of Web Services
15:22:24 [chump]
titled item E
15:22:25 [davb]
E: ?
15:22:26 [chump]
commented item E
15:22:27 [Starets]
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15:25:13 [davb]
E: in tcl! (uses tDOM)
15:25:13 [chump]
commented item E
15:48:48 [rbm]
moo
15:49:18 [rbm]
Cameron Laird wrote the LinuxJournal article.
16:00:08 [davb]
yep
16:01:03 [davb]
http://www.salon.com/contact/staff/idk/print.html
16:01:04 [chump]
F: http://www.salon.com/contact/staff/idk/print.html from davb
16:01:13 [davb]
F:|Industrial Strength Publishing
16:01:13 [chump]
titled item F
16:01:38 [davb]
F: paper about Salon.com's online publishing system
16:01:38 [chump]
commented item F
16:09:38 [rbm]
Is the LJ article available for public reading? I thought that they only released it a couple months after the magazine had been published.
16:09:52 [rbm]
I saw the article because I subscribe to it.
16:10:05 [rbm]
* rbm is tired
16:11:28 [davb]
I read it :)
16:12:59 [davb]
http://www.webservices.org/
16:13:00 [chump]
G: http://www.webservices.org/ from davb
16:13:05 [davb]
G:|Web Services.org
16:13:06 [chump]
titled item G
16:13:09 [davb]
G: looks interesting.
16:13:10 [chump]
commented item G
16:24:46 [rbm]
* rbm awards davb with the #openacs URL Gatherer Prize
16:29:22 [Starets]
Starets has left #openacs
16:31:28 [davb]
heh
16:31:42 [davb]
I wish I was doing something productive instead ...
16:45:23 [Psychephylax]
Hey Roberto
16:45:48 [rbm]
hey Psychephylax
16:46:05 [rbm]
* rbm thanks epic4+light for nick completion
16:46:08 [rbm]
brb
16:55:05 [jim]
ok, I finally have my site up...
16:55:11 [jim]
about to install etp
16:55:36 [davb]
cool
16:56:09 [davb]
jim: wow, it took 18 hours to rebuild that database. sounds like when I tried to install oracle on a P200 with 64mb ram :)
16:57:26 [jim]
davb: mine?
16:57:54 [jim]
no, see, I had problems starting it :) (still do, aolserver is in fg atm)
16:58:02 [davb]
:)
16:58:04 [jim]
but it's working :)
16:58:10 [davb]
weird.
16:58:23 [jim]
I just upgraded to woody on this box
16:58:43 [davb]
ah. aolserver pacakge or from source?
16:59:31 [davb]
actual customer service FAQ: How Do I Send Books to Someone Who Is In Prison?
16:59:48 [jim]
from source
17:00:00 [jim]
and I rebuilt everything, including pg
17:00:26 [davb]
ok. just wondering, I probably can't help :) its a dark art to me.
17:00:42 [jim]
I'll figure out what it is later... meanwhile I can work on my two etp thingys :)
17:02:01 [jim]
wanna do in this order: first, text/plain pages
17:02:48 [jim]
then commentable pages (that order, because the first requires no other packages)
17:04:05 [davb]
right
17:04:12 [jim]
ok, first thing I need is, on the actual text entry page, is "this is text or html" thing
17:04:38 [davb]
I have an idea, make it a parameter whether it asks or not and what the default is.
17:04:43 [davb]
an etp parameter.
17:05:06 [jim]
ok, I'll do that
17:05:28 [jim]
the default should be current behavior (don't ask, always text/html)
17:05:29 [davb]
I think that will work, or at least make the default a parameter, so most people can ignore the box :)
17:05:54 [davb]
right. then you can just customize your app.
17:06:19 [jim]
and if "don't ask", the field will be a hidden field that always returns "text/html"
17:06:36 [davb]
One problem is you are stuffing the mime type in cr_items right?
17:06:46 [jim]
cr_revisions
17:07:09 [davb]
ok. so you will need to change the etp::get_parameters code to grab that too.
17:07:18 [jim]
that's where the mime type is
17:07:28 [davb]
ok good.
17:07:57 [jim]
I have to be maybe 75% here... laundry stuff :)
17:08:44 [davb]
ok
17:09:42 [jim]
hmm, first add that param
17:19:15 [jim]
ok, added
17:19:35 [jim]
now... how to test it...
17:19:58 [jim]
how to see it...
17:21:25 [davb]
restart aolserver, and create a new page using that app. it should show up under the long list of parameters on the edit this page page.
17:26:09 [jim]
ok
17:26:22 [jim]
* jim hammers
17:35:16 [jim]
ok, the parameter exists under sitemap/the-etp/set parameters
17:35:41 [jim]
now, I want to see the docs for the parameter reading api
17:36:03 [jim]
(I looked, wasn't finished looking yet...)
17:36:09 [jim]
* jim looks some more
17:36:49 [davb]
jim: I was thinking of an ETP application parameter, not an ACS package parameter...
17:37:58 [til]
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17:37:59 [jim]
how would I add that?
17:38:57 [davb]
in packages/edit-this-page/tcl/etp-init.tcl you can define etp applications
17:38:59 [jim]
btw, what I've added is a package -instance- parameter, or a -global- package param?
17:39:10 [davb]
jim: package instance.
17:39:15 [jim]
ok
17:39:35 [davb]
each etp applicaiton is a package instance, but I think it will be easier to integrate with the etp interface as an etp param
17:40:53 [jim]
let me run with this approach for awhile...
17:41:06 [davb]
ok :)
17:41:14 [jim]
if it turns out to be -wayyy- harder, I'll go back
17:41:59 [jim]
reason I think this is the way to go, is -all- ETP apps should read this param
17:42:43 [jim]
so you see my intent here... I'm gonna alter all the default apps :)
17:43:39 [davb]
jim: right (you can just chang ethe default ETP app and it will carry over to all of them :)
17:45:55 [jim]
well, no... I need to change the templates too
17:48:28 [davb]
right.
17:50:46 [jim]
at least I think I do...haven't looked at what produces the actual text entry pages
17:52:13 [jim]
haven't found anythign that reads package params yet
17:52:21 [jim]
* jim browses the api
17:54:17 [jim]
found something
17:55:25 [davb]
cool.
17:55:27 [jim]
Parameter information is maintained through two tables: apm_parameters and apm_parameter_values
17:56:02 [jim]
* jim tries to find api functions that use the tables, being lazy and standards-conformant
17:56:12 [davb]
ad_parameter I think
17:58:57 [jim]
* jim found a buncha plpgsql stuff...
17:59:28 [jim]
* jim hopes to find ad_parameter, and hopes it automagically divines its package instance :)
17:59:34 [davb]
ah. there is also a tcl api
17:59:40 [jim]
...being lazy...
17:59:43 [davb]
ad_conn pacakge_id
18:00:12 [davb]
yep: set package_id [ad_conn package_id]
18:00:24 [til]
* til hand jim a version of ad_parameter
18:00:46 [til]
it's tcl and by default it automatically finds the current package_id
18:00:51 [davb]
ah cool.
18:01:21 [jim]
til: tnx :) browsing...
18:02:15 [davb]
lunch...
18:02:32 [jim]
excellent
18:03:09 [jim]
davb: I'll have at least a page demonstrating I can read the parameter in about 10 mins
18:06:16 [til]
i find api-doc quite useful for these purposes, although the "show another procedure" search function confused me for a while
18:06:50 [til]
it does not find everything that the search box from the beginning finds ... annoying
18:07:14 [jim]
it should read "As if I haven't done enough already, I'll show you another proc if you give me its name" :)
18:07:35 [jim]
til: howbout have a link back to that
18:07:41 [til]
heh
18:08:05 [til]
the link is in the context bar
18:08:21 [jim]
til: -or- duplicate its entire functionality (-and- form elements) in place of what's there now
18:08:40 [jim]
til: now, it's the same as a "feeling lucky" search... yes?
18:09:30 [til]
no, i don't think it's like the "feeling lucky" thing - it's some kind of much more restrictive search then the one from the first page
18:11:32 [til]
ah, it's no search at all, it just calls proc-view, so you have to enter an exact procedure name
18:13:44 [jim]
bug: "edit parent page" should not appear on the root edit page
18:15:21 [til]
what happens when you click on it?
18:16:22 [jim]
aolserver lists files at /
18:16:52 [til]
ah, that's the 404 bug - this should actually be a "not found
18:16:59 [til]
" instead of the listing
18:17:03 [jim]
(new aolserver functionality, makes it more similar to apache)
18:17:38 [til]
from when is your openacs checkout?
18:17:49 [jim]
umm
18:18:00 [jim]
etp checked out an hour ago...
18:18:06 [jim]
and rest of oacs...
18:18:31 [jim]
(btw, got the parameter)
18:18:41 [til]
congrats
18:18:45 [jim]
tnx :)
18:19:08 [til]
try typing in a bogus url - you'll propably see the directory listing too
18:19:35 [jim]
I tarred the oacs cvs checkout, and annotated the filename: openacs-4-20020207-2239.tar.gz
18:20:23 [jim]
2239 being 10:39 PM
18:23:19 [til]
if the directory listing instead of 404 annoys you then you might want to upgrade
18:24:02 [jim]
well, see, my opinion is that the link should not appear if pressing it would result in the 404
18:24:33 [jim]
I dunno how hard that is to accomplish...
18:24:56 [jim]
the newer acs has the /global? is that how it gets the 404?
18:25:02 [til]
you are right ... propably it's a bug
18:25:53 [til]
dunno if it uses /global/ (it should), but in case there is nothing in /global/ then the generic aolserver "not found" message should appear
18:26:08 [jim]
right, ic
18:26:33 [jim]
now, trying to find that edit form
18:27:14 [jim]
not in .../templates
18:28:04 [jim]
I think I found it
18:28:32 [jim]
.../www/etp-edit
18:29:27 [jim]
* jim tries to get the parameter onto that page
18:30:29 [davb]
jim: you might want that on etp.tcl/adp instead
18:30:50 [davb]
unless I am thinking wrong, etp-edit takes a paramater as a parameter :)
18:33:13 [davb]
problem is you want it to appear on the text or content entry page right?
18:34:06 [jim]
davb: rigth
18:34:29 [jim]
etp-edit looks awfully generic
18:34:34 [davb]
but that is the same page that edits all the other parameters
18:34:36 [davb]
right :)
18:34:50 [davb]
have you seen the modetp with the new interface?
18:35:05 [jim]
probably not
18:35:44 [davb]
also, I am not sure if etp actually store the content of the entry in the CR or in an attribute table.
18:36:29 [davb]
http://demo.infiniteinfo.com/modetp/
18:37:01 [davb]
also you might want to correspond with luke to see if he has any advice on how to do it.
18:37:23 [jim]
the answer to that question is probably in etp-edit-2
18:38:14 [davb]
ah, the content is in content_revisions.
18:38:44 [davb]
oops, maybe not :)
18:38:59 [jim]
how application-dependent is this really?
18:39:19 [davb]
which? the mime type?
18:39:22 [jim]
lessee, article has one section
18:39:30 [jim]
the content
18:39:45 [jim]
but faq might have two, one for question one for answer
18:40:01 [jim]
or if more than one person answers...
18:40:22 [davb]
I think each Q only has one A
18:40:57 [jim]
so each of Q, A could have separate content types
18:41:52 [davb]
jim: most of my apps won't use the "content" because they have specific fields that need to be captured in a structred way.
18:42:12 [davb]
ah. content goes in cr_revisions.content
18:42:52 [jim]
would any of your fields make sense to have a text-vs-html selector?
18:43:40 [jim]
* jim is now leaning toward application parameter...
18:44:08 [jim]
well, leaning less toward package parameter :)
18:44:10 [davb]
jim: nope :)
18:44:24 [davb]
or rather I would like to strip the html out I think.
18:44:41 [jim]
davb: so your applications would not use this flag
18:44:55 [davb]
jim: one thing I thought of is a ETP application param is added to each item. not really what you want.
18:45:06 [davb]
jim: not for this application, but you never know.
18:45:31 [jim]
really, one should build separate apps
18:45:35 [davb]
wait, never mind. the params are per application. attributes are per item.
18:46:25 [davb]
jim: I think the fictional workflow based etp would do what you want. set more than one setting on the etp-edit page.
18:47:10 [jim]
I think I installed the graphviz package on one of these boxes...
18:47:41 [jim]
* jim finds out which one, and also installs it on the other, then configures workflow to use it
18:48:33 [jim]
(did you know that the debian package management stuff has a func that outputs graphviz info for package deps?)
18:51:20 [til]
jim: which func? that sounds incredible ...
18:51:30 [jim]
apt-cache dotty
18:52:22 [jim]
try this: apt-cache dotty postgresql
18:54:42 [til]
whoa, cool
18:58:05 [rbm]
* rbm didn't know about apt-cache dotty
18:58:38 [jim]
* jim tries apt-cache dotty postgresql | dot -Tps > foo.ps
18:58:53 [jim]
now, how to display that...
18:59:28 [jim]
segfaults gs
18:59:33 [rbm]
gv?
18:59:40 [jim]
err, gs
18:59:45 [jim]
gv
18:59:48 [jim]
sorry
19:01:15 [jim]
* jim needs a printer
19:10:09 [davb]
jim: the workflow based etp is just a figment of my imaginiation right now :)
19:10:40 [jim]
still, I wanna play with the workflow package to see what it can do :)
19:10:51 [davb]
cool. read the docs, they are very good!
19:11:03 [jim]
will do :)
19:11:20 [davb]
as opposed to groveling around in the code like most of the other pacakges :)
19:11:57 [jim]
* jim searched for HP 4050 printers... none cheap enuf right now
19:15:00 [rbm]
I bought an Epson C60 for $80 recently. 2880x720 dpi, 12 ppm, perfect output on Linux
19:15:20 [rbm]
It supports parallel and USB and I got free shipping on it.
19:15:21 [jim]
that's damn good
19:15:33 [jim]
off ebay?
19:15:34 [rbm]
jim: I thought so too.
19:15:45 [rbm]
jim: No. epsonstore.com, straight from the factory.
19:16:13 [jim]
they want a grand for a HP 4050, on avg
19:17:06 [rbm]
I love Epson inkjets. The quality is sooooo much better than HPs.
19:17:30 [jim]
* jim definitely wants a laser
19:17:50 [jim]
that I can shoot ps at
19:18:37 [rbm]
I wanted a laser too, but I need color sometimes, and can't afford even B&W lasers, much less color. I can shoot anything at this Epson and gimp-print takes care of it.
19:18:40 [rbm]
including ps.
19:21:25 [jim]
ok, back to etp...
19:22:43 [jim]
first thing I should do is look at what the default apps give you
19:29:26 [jim]
OK, each type has a "content" attribute
19:29:36 [jim]
here's what I'm thinking:
19:30:29 [jim]
a "content" attribute seems to be fair-game for html or text, no matter what app (at least in the default apps I have seen so far)
19:31:00 [davb]
right. its the "big" text field.
19:31:30 [jim]
is it reasonable to say "if you call this attribute "content", I'm gonna ask the user if the content is text or html"?
19:31:50 [davb]
sure. just like a posting on the bboard.
19:32:01 [jim]
ok,
19:32:12 [jim]
let me play devils advocate a moment
19:32:30 [jim]
here comes Joe Appmaker
19:32:51 [jim]
he wants an attribute called content
19:33:01 [jim]
but he -doesn't- want there to be a choice
19:33:13 [jim]
he wants his type, period
19:33:27 [jim]
so:
19:33:40 [jim]
maybe I'm looking at the wrong level
19:34:12 [jim]
maybe what I -really- want to do is define a -type-, that has a big-text field, and allows the choice
19:34:47 [jim]
and this type would be an attribute type
19:35:00 [davb]
jim: it still can be a app parameter.
19:35:08 [davb]
that allows you to set the item attribute.
19:35:40 [jim]
ok, let me play with that...
19:35:47 [davb]
kinda like the allow_subtopic, etc..
19:35:53 [jim]
I'm now getting rid of the package parameter
19:36:22 [davb]
then you use etp::parameter or whatever instead of ad_parameter :)
19:36:36 [jim]
(and crossing my fingers: deleting things isn't openacs-4's strong suit atm, and this -must- change)
19:36:48 [davb]
right, next release :)
19:37:24 [jim]
and I mean, ALL package drop scripts must work under EVERY condition
19:38:25 [jim]
(gotta do that to lend credibility to the data model; people will think the database has something wrong with it -- like I did :)
19:38:31 [davb]
right.
19:38:43 [bartt]
bartt (~chatzilla@dsl-64-34-176-81.telocity.com) has joined #openacs
19:38:52 [davb]
hi bartt
19:38:54 [jim]
</rant>
19:39:15 [davb]
heh. I wonder where ola went. I still need to pawn off the packages I ported on him...
19:39:30 [bartt]
hi davb et all
19:39:40 [jim]
heya bartt
19:41:02 [jim]
question me this: given I want to create an attribute type (that allows two separate -mime- types to be selected), how near to the core do I go?
19:41:33 [jim]
do I deal exclusively with cr until I have the type, then alter etp so it can use it?
19:42:03 [bartt]
Does anyone know what is up with the restrict to https procs? I no longer get redirected to a secure connection. My server config hasn't changed a bit!
19:42:15 [davb]
bartt: never tried them
19:42:30 [davb]
jim: you can do it all with the etp api.
19:42:30 [bartt]
jim that is a question beyond my scope.
19:43:00 [davb]
jim: wait, what exactly are you asking? :)
19:43:24 [jim]
I'm asking: what is the BEST level to start at?
19:43:26 [davb]
etp created content_types and attributes for you so I don't think you need to touch the CR at all.
19:43:36 [davb]
s/created/creates
19:44:58 [davb]
one thing I need to work on is that my application has say 10 custom attibutes, I don't want to visit 10 pages to set them, I want one long page with text boxes for all of them.
19:45:20 [davb]
hmmm. I wonder if etp-edit can take more than one param...
19:45:36 [jim]
davb: what you might do is create a composite type
19:45:55 [davb]
* davb wonders if etp supports that
19:46:20 [jim]
it doesn't look that way, from my (very cursory) first look
19:46:48 [davb]
I think not. it was supposed to be easy to use and solve 90% of your problems, it left out the kitchen sink
19:50:49 [jim]
does Annie Pageviewer get a look at all the attribs at once?
19:51:49 [davb]
jim: the visitor, or editor? visitor gets whatever you give them in the template. editor sees a list of them but has to click edit for each one.
19:52:25 [jim]
davb: speaking of your custom app
19:52:45 [jim]
(of which you said "I want to edit everything at once")
19:53:26 [jim]
yaknow, that would seem to be an idea for a generic feature
19:53:35 [davb]
right.
19:53:56 [davb]
I think by using workflow, we can let the app builder design the screens that are used.
19:54:27 [jim]
BUG:
19:54:28 [chump]
Label BUG not found.
19:54:49 [jim]
at /doc/acs-templating/designer-guide.html
19:54:52 [davb]
* davb finally tests the wp patches
19:56:39 [jim]
youmean mine too?
20:00:14 [davb]
oh, no. but I can :)
20:01:42 [jim]
dunno if my patch is the only one that fixes the no-html bug...
20:02:05 [jim]
and dunno if I caught all the conditions
20:02:19 [jim]
I think I covered most of em
20:02:30 [davb]
ok.
20:03:15 [jim]
it would be nice to know if someone else tried to fix this... and if there's more to do
20:04:12 [jim]
ok, I'm going to lunch; bbiaw
20:15:14 [docwolf]
docwolf (~docwolf@adsl-34-183-205.bct.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs
20:15:37 [davb]
hi docwolf
20:15:42 [docwolf]
howdy!
20:24:18 [Psychephylax]
Hey
20:24:23 [Psychephylax]
ACS question for you people
20:24:43 [jim]
hey, and this would be the place, too!
20:25:05 [Psychephylax]
ok
20:25:15 [Psychephylax]
on the default ACS install
20:25:23 [Psychephylax]
when the user registers and visits www.blah.com
20:25:27 [Psychephylax]
what page does it load?
20:26:08 [jim]
/web/server/www/index.{tcl,adp}
20:26:24 [Psychephylax]
ok
20:26:25 [jim]
well,
20:26:26 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax tries
20:26:33 [jim]
/web/blah/www/index.{tcl,adp}
20:26:44 [til]
assuming your docroot is set correctly
20:26:46 [Psychephylax]
so if I block out index
20:26:52 [Psychephylax]
then it should hide it
20:26:53 [jim]
(you did say www.blah.com)
20:26:57 [Psychephylax]
yeah
20:27:06 [Psychephylax]
cham.montefiore.org for example
20:27:24 [jim]
/web/montefiore/www/index.{tcl,adp}
20:27:53 [jim]
well, you could use etp if you want
20:28:19 [jim]
* jim is out for awhile :)
20:28:22 [Psychephylax]
so what would the url be
20:28:32 [Psychephylax]
like cham.montefiore.org/index?
20:28:44 [jim]
cham.montefiore.org/
20:28:51 [Psychephylax]
dang
20:28:55 [Psychephylax]
ok thanks anyway
20:28:58 [Psychephylax]
:)
20:29:06 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax wanders off to the lab once again
20:37:51 [til]
i have a postgresql question: if i do a substraction of dates, like in select (my_date-now()) then it returns intervals like this: "@ 50 days 3 hours 34 mins 41 secs" - but this does not tell me the direction of the interval, e.g. contains no sign
20:38:48 [til]
but when i sort for the returned interval then the direction seems to be taken into account
20:39:16 [davb]
interesting, I never thought about it :)
20:39:51 [til]
i want to have a query that is sorted in a way that the "nearest" dates, e.g. the smallest intervals are first
20:40:22 [davb]
ok.
20:41:51 [davb]
direction will be ago or emtpy
20:41:55 [rbm]
til: Don't subtract timestamps then.
20:42:16 [davb]
wait that is for specifying an interval :)
20:43:34 [til]
is there some way to cast a timestamp into a unix-seconds value then, so that i could substract that?
20:43:54 [davb]
it still should have an ago for a select
20:43:55 [rbm]
til: yes. See the extract function docs.
20:44:24 [davb]
interval output looks like the input format, except that units like week or century are converted to years and days. In ISO mode the output looks like
20:44:25 [davb]
[ Quantity Units [ ... ] ] [ Days ] Hours:Minutes [ ago ]
20:44:26 [til]
davb: the ago never shows up in my query results unfortunately
20:44:42 [davb]
ah, so the docs are not very helpful :(
20:45:33 [til]
ah, it's SELECT EXTRACT(EPOCH FROM TIMESTAMP '2001-02-16 20:38:40') ... i overlooked that, thanks!
21:16:26 [k2pts]
k2pts (~nkd@adsl-168-174.cytanet.com.cy) has joined #openacs
21:16:26 [davb]
davb has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:16:36 [rbm]
hey neophytos
21:16:40 [k2pts]
hey roberto
21:16:46 [rbm]
how goes it?
21:16:47 [k2pts]
how's it going?
21:16:50 [k2pts]
great :)
21:19:17 [rbm]
Excellent. I'm not so good, but I'll get over it.
21:19:48 [rbm]
I'm frustrated with my lack of time to help with OpenACS as much as I'd like to.
21:20:00 [k2pts]
I have been pretty busy myself past couple of days...
21:21:08 [k2pts]
til: I'm gonna clean the backlog by the end of the week
21:22:32 [k2pts]
some info: openfts was released as an alpha (perl version)...danw is going to port it to tcl...it has support for snowball stemmers, ispell and it's based on tsearch (which is a lot faster and easier to install)...
21:22:44 [k2pts]
the new openfts version that is
21:24:02 [til]
k2pts: cool (both backlog and fts)
21:24:32 [bartt]
Hi neophytos good to see you here
21:26:05 [bartt]
I have a question about redirect to https for you.
21:26:05 [k2pts]
hey bartt
21:26:05 [k2pts]
bartt: I still haven't fixed that message output specification (it doesn't matter much for the moment but I'm gonna get to it soon -- feel free to bug if I forget)
21:26:05 [rbm]
k2pts: I saw the new release of openfts. Great work!
21:26:05 [k2pts]
oleg and teodor did a great work: we are just helping
21:26:40 [k2pts]
openfts is getting a lot of attention...the second largest norwegian "portal" is now running openfts and they offered to provide support of any kind
21:27:04 [bartt]
Since you updated admin-procs.tcl all redirects to https go to https:///acs-admin. Notice how both the host and the port are missing? Do you have any idea what it could be?
21:28:04 [k2pts]
I don't remember updating admin-procs.tcl: I remember I had send a bug report a few months ago but haven't looked at it since then....
21:28:08 [k2pts]
could you elaborate?
21:29:50 [bartt]
The cvs log shows that you updated packages/acs-tcl/admin-procs.tcl on 2002-02-10 while appling patches 130,131,132,133,134,135,137
21:29:51 [k2pts]
btw, most of the updates you have seen last week from me were removals of ".tcl" or ".adp" extensions from links so that we can enforce the abstract url system...(with a parameter for the request processor for those who want their pages accessible from those extensions as well).
21:30:50 [k2pts]
oh, lemme check
21:34:40 [k2pts]
40,41c40
21:34:41 [k2pts]
< set host [ad_conn host]
21:34:41 [k2pts]
< #set host [ns_set iget [ad_conn headers] "host"]
21:34:41 [k2pts]
---
21:34:41 [k2pts]
> set host [ns_set iget [ad_conn headers] "host"]
21:35:12 [k2pts]
bartt: this is what I have changed, it was a bug report from tilmann IIRC
21:35:48 [til]
* til hides
21:36:33 [bartt]
I saw that. I'm just verifing the fix and noticed that admin-procs.tcl doesn't work with openssl 2.x as the parameter name of the secure port in the nsd config file has changed from 'port' to ServerPort'.
21:36:38 [k2pts]
til: was that you. i'm not sure...it might not be you (I think the patch didn't work for this one and I had to edit it manually -- it's probably not til)
21:36:54 [til]
do you know the patch number?
21:37:10 [k2pts]
til: it's probably not you. lemme check
21:38:40 [k2pts]
bartt: I think I've seen a patch about that one by C.R.Oldham, lemme check
21:39:12 [til]
patch 109 is about that
21:39:25 [bartt]
The problem is a combination of two things: patch 132 [ad_conn host] doesn't work it returns '' and the aforementioned change of 'Port' to 'ServerPort' that was also part of 132 hasn't been applied.
21:39:40 [k2pts]
yeap, #109
21:41:01 [bartt]
Could patch # 132 be reverted and # 109 be applied? That should restore the ad_restrict_to_https proc.
21:41:05 [k2pts]
bartt: didn't notice that. #109 was not a patch, just a file. don told me there's only one line to edit and I hand edit it (those were the first patches I applied). If you point me what needs to be done I'll do it now
21:41:13 [bartt]
I just tested that on my system.
21:42:32 [bartt]
OK: uncomment line 41, change Port to ServerPort in line 37 then remove line 40
21:42:33 [chump]
Label OK not found.
21:42:34 [k2pts]
doint it now...I'll let you know to test it (haven't install openssl yet)
21:44:32 [k2pts]
uncommented line 41, removed line 40, changed Port to ServerPort in line 37 and commit
21:46:29 [k2pts]
just to correct my post above (#132 was not a patch -- #109 was a patch)
21:49:02 [bartt]
Updated admin-procs.tcl from CVS
21:50:47 [bartt]
Verified changes. Redirect works again! :)
21:50:52 [k2pts]
great
21:50:58 [bartt]
Thanks
21:51:04 [k2pts]
np
21:51:48 [k2pts]
bartt: since you've worked with the acs-service-contract package maybe you would like to know I'm moving out of the db next release cycle (everything is going to work/compatible)
21:51:57 [k2pts]
s/moving/moving it
21:52:41 [k2pts]
probably an xml specification of contracts/implementations or a script-like file
21:53:21 [k2pts]
I wanted to finish the categorization package this week but I'm way busy
21:53:57 [k2pts]
I did my first recitation for theory of computation this morning (50 students) and it was funnnnnn... :)
21:55:39 [bartt]
Way to go neophytos. When I was a student myself I used to teach this course.
21:56:54 [k2pts]
(not a student, graduated last summer :) yes it's fun...they were really like good...most challenging course at the university (maybe because the prof is a harvard graduate)
21:57:18 [k2pts]
did his Ph.D. with Harry Lewis
21:58:10 [bartt]
I'm looking forward to the new a-s-c release. Janine recently pickup her work on the gateway service contract. Will she be needing the new release?
21:58:34 [k2pts]
no, everything is going to be combatible
21:58:55 [k2pts]
for next release cycly I was thinking of keeping both the db and the xml files
21:59:19 [k2pts]
but we could easily extract the xml files from the a-s-c tables
22:01:05 [k2pts]
anyways, have to head out guys, later
22:01:10 [bartt]
You mentioned the abstract url system. Are you aware of .acs and .dat files? The templating documentation mentions both extension
22:01:47 [k2pts]
.dat .fmt could be configures with some parameters
22:01:58 [k2pts]
.acs (I personally don't like it)
22:02:11 [rbm]
k2pts: I'm taking computer theory right now.
22:02:20 [k2pts]
how's it going?
22:02:36 [rbm]
The material is interesting. The professor is an @$$hole
22:02:44 [k2pts]
:)
22:02:59 [rbm]
Darn tenure
22:06:46 [rbm]
k2pts: Where are you again?
22:06:57 [k2pts]
???
22:07:16 [rbm]
Country
22:07:20 [k2pts]
oh, Cyprus
22:07:42 [rbm]
* rbm tries in vain to locate that in his mental world map
22:07:43 [k2pts]
you should visit some time
22:08:02 [bartt]
I'm not a fan of .acs but the .dat extension is supposed to give the data source of an .acs file. Should this be changed so that it provides the data source of an abstract url?
22:08:30 [rbm]
k2pts: If I had money I'd spend more time travelling around the world.
22:08:38 [k2pts]
rbm: me too
22:08:58 [bartt]
If I had time I would
22:09:25 [k2pts]
bartt: I'm working on something else right now which is going to eliminate the need for datasources. I don't tell much until I have something solid (I'm working on way too many things, that's why I have a hard time copping :)
22:09:57 [bartt]
I'll stay tuned then :)
22:09:57 [k2pts]
bartt: I wish I had the money, I would have found the time then
22:10:33 [k2pts]
bartt: persistence layer (however, I'm afraid the community is going to be tough on it -- to adopt it that is)
22:10:50 [bartt]
That is what you think. With money comes responsabilties and commitment.
22:10:53 [k2pts]
bartt: see model-view-controller
22:11:06 [k2pts]
bartt: yes I know
22:11:40 [k2pts]
the prof I work for at the university offered me more money to quit fooling around with OSS and I declined (for the reasons you mention)
22:12:15 [bartt]
m-v-c: Isn't that what the current templating system does?
22:12:22 [k2pts]
wanna see a site I build in one day with openacs (it's for some friends at the university -- it's in greek). I had to remove almost everything from the bboard :) and I'm gonna put more time to it
22:12:57 [bartt]
Sure!
22:13:22 [bartt]
Don't speek greek but do know where cyprus is ;)
22:13:29 [k2pts]
bartt: there was a thread lately, you might want to check it out. a m-v-c is needs a domain model (we've got something like transaction script pattern which could be viewed as an m-v-c but not the same)
22:13:53 [k2pts]
bartt: you know more than most people
22:14:09 [k2pts]
http://213.149.168.174
22:14:09 [chump]
H: http://213.149.168.174 from k2pts
22:14:19 [k2pts]
I would really like to hear your comments about the ui
22:14:22 [bartt]
I once had the time to travel. (Didn't make it to greece though)
22:15:10 [k2pts]
btw, it's from my home computer (the site)
22:15:25 [k2pts]
we're still using the ip address (waiting for dyndns to get back to me)
22:17:11 [k2pts]
bartt: is it slow?
22:18:55 [rbm]
k2pts: This looks great
22:18:59 [k2pts]
thx
22:19:02 [rbm]
Is this OACS 4?
22:19:10 [bartt]
Check out my work in progres: www.7-sisters.com. This the site of our business. No db stuff yet but some interesting use of CSS (If i dare say so myself)
22:19:29 [rbm]
Wish I could read the greek
22:19:35 [bartt]
The site is not slow at all. Thanks to the familiar layout I was able to register.
22:19:59 [rbm]
It isn't slow to me either
22:20:03 [k2pts]
follow the links in the start page, they are in english all my favorite articles online
22:20:58 [bartt]
There seems to be a broken link on the home page though: the link to emory.edu fails.
22:21:19 [k2pts]
bartt: my felt really nice when a friend that studies in UK send me an email. she was so happy that she made it so easily to register and use it (she doesn't have a clue about computers)
22:21:27 [k2pts]
s/my/it
22:21:35 [k2pts]
checking your website as we speak
22:21:57 [bartt]
And how did were you able to replace /pvt/home with /my? I've tried that with the CVS version but that didn't work. Haven't looked into it further.
22:22:28 [k2pts]
I created a new dir
22:22:38 [k2pts]
and moved stuff there...I had to manually edit them
22:22:46 [k2pts]
ok
22:22:47 [k2pts]
oh
22:22:55 [k2pts]
you can change a parameter in the acs-kernel
22:23:07 [bartt]
I like the clean layout a lot. Well done!
22:23:16 [k2pts]
and you use acs_community_member_url from the api
22:23:21 [k2pts]
bartt: thx
22:23:32 [k2pts]
I wanted to really keep it minimal
22:23:52 [k2pts]
the first day there was only the top stuff (logo, workspace,help)
22:23:54 [k2pts]
and two lines
22:24:19 [k2pts]
one saying "Welcome, please register" or "Hello, yourname (logout)"
22:24:24 [k2pts]
and the other Forums
22:24:45 [k2pts]
guys read those articles,they are really great
22:24:50 [k2pts]
all of them
22:25:02 [k2pts]
(in the start page -- outside links)
22:25:04 [bartt]
That is what I'm after with our site. Chose to use CSS so that the menu can stay on the left while the content scrolls to the right of it. You can then bookmark individual pages which you can not with frames.
22:25:17 [rbm]
k2pts: I read the attitude is everything and was reading Edwin Land's one.
22:25:24 [rbm]
really excellent
22:25:51 [k2pts]
I was going to add some stars and didn't do it on purpose since every article on that page would get 5 stars no doubt
22:27:22 [rbm]
k2pts: Is this your personal site?>
22:27:29 [k2pts]
in some respect
22:27:38 [k2pts]
I started on Sunday
22:27:38 [rbm]
I really need to rebuild my personal site
22:27:54 [rbm]
You didn't answer if it is OACS 4
22:28:15 [k2pts]
we were having beers here at home on Saturday evening and I stayed up until late Sunday morning working on this one (I improved it past couple of days)
22:28:25 [k2pts]
with some friends
22:28:47 [k2pts]
I'm still trying to make them feel comfortable...people don't know a thing about communities here...
22:29:25 [k2pts]
and IMHO businesses don't have a clue what the internet is all about (it's like that time stopped in this part of the world)
22:30:09 [k2pts]
Check this site: http://www.clrfn.com/
22:30:30 [k2pts]
they paid we bag of money (it's a financial house here in cyprus).
22:30:37 [k2pts]
s/we/a
22:31:22 [shagster]
Howdy OACS'ers
22:31:31 [k2pts]
hey shagster
22:31:35 [rbm]
It doesn't show on my browser. No Flash here
22:31:42 [k2pts]
exactly my point
22:31:59 [rbm]
k2pts: So, for the third time, is that personal site of yours OACS 4?
22:31:59 [k2pts]
business don't have a clue
22:32:07 [k2pts]
yes
22:32:07 [shagster]
Flash on the front page? Somebody should be shot :)
22:32:16 [rbm]
k2pts: Thanks :)
22:32:21 [k2pts]
rbm: np
22:33:00 [bartt]
Looks like brochure-ware to me.
22:33:15 [k2pts]
The reason, I didn't answer straightforward earlier is that it's not permanent. If I stay in Cyprus it will become my personal web site/portal/community(photo.net :)
22:33:23 [k2pts]
bartt: right
22:33:35 [davb]
davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
22:33:39 [k2pts]
hey davb
22:33:43 [davb]
hi k2pts
22:33:53 [bartt]
Hi again davb
22:34:06 [shagster]
Hey davb
22:34:40 [k2pts]
btw, does anyone know what happened with Jerry's blog package? I want to offer that to my friends so that they can start writing...and I would hate doing it from zip
22:35:18 [shagster]
Sorry, I didn't even have a chance to look at it
22:35:34 [shagster]
You might just send him and email about it
22:35:43 [k2pts]
rbm: it's a community site (like photo.net)...and I just want to have a small corner for myself there like everybody else
22:36:29 [k2pts]
now that I think about it, I might add an english page for my fellow community members :)
22:37:40 [davb]
k2pts: is it really a package? it was for 3.x
22:37:41 [k2pts]
10% of the site have English as their natural language (that is one: bart :)
22:37:49 [k2pts]
it wouldn't be that hard to port
22:39:42 [bartt]
k2pts: my native language is dutch. Thanks for the compliment on my english skills
22:40:00 [k2pts]
hey :) you know better english than I do
22:40:21 [shagster]
k2pts: you have English down better than me :)
22:41:24 [k2pts]
* k2pts feels happy :)
22:41:51 [shagster]
* shagster is glad his not isn't happy :)
22:42:04 [shagster]
Hmm.....typo'd that
22:43:53 [k2pts]
dave: I have a question about etp
22:45:02 [davb]
ok
22:45:22 [k2pts]
I want to add comments on the etp articles, any easy way to do it
22:45:34 [k2pts]
(i don't wanna look for it, too lazy)
22:46:09 [k2pts]
actually, I want to make it optional and configure it from the attributes page but I suppose that that would require a datamodel changes
22:46:15 [k2pts]
s/changes/change
22:47:40 [davb]
k2pts: there is a tcl file etp-gc.tcl I think. It is not in the info file so its not loaded.
22:47:52 [k2pts]
let me check
22:47:53 [davb]
I am not sure if it has a parameter to enable/disable.
22:48:59 [k2pts]
# We only show the link here if the_public has
22:49:00 [k2pts]
# general_comments_create privilege on the page. Why the_public
22:49:00 [k2pts]
# rather than the current user? Because we don't want admins to
22:49:00 [k2pts]
# be seeing "Add a comment" links on non-commentable pages.
22:50:44 [davb]
I am not sure how to set that priviliege. I think etp does not have a ui for that :)
22:50:46 [k2pts]
I think I'm gonna setup a page for openacs members, www.phigita.net/mellon (mellon from the lord of the rings when it's used to enter the gates to the mines of moria)...we could all do that in our sites
22:51:15 [k2pts]
that's not much of a problem...I'll have to check it out it seems
22:51:40 [davb]
jim: did you look at the comments on etp?
22:52:52 [k2pts]
anyways, have to head out guys, we talk later...
22:53:11 [k2pts]
dave: thx
22:53:14 [k2pts]
k2pts has left #openacs
22:58:42 [rbm]
* rbm goes home
23:00:08 [bartt]
bartt has left #openacs