IRC log of openacs on 2002-02-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:04 [talli]
but there is that HUGE machine that is sitting there for no reason
00:00:22 [talli]
since it's such an important service, maybe it would make sense to back it up? perhaps an uptime for uptime?
00:00:27 [shagster]
Plus the few times I has burped, I'm only 20 mins away...
00:00:40 [k2pts]
k2pts (~nkd@adsl-168-174.cytanet.com.cy) has joined #openacs
00:00:45 [talli]
oh man
00:00:48 [talli]
look who's here
00:00:49 [shagster]
Talli I have that :) I friend of mine monitors it with SiteScope for me...
00:00:50 [k2pts]
hey talli
00:00:53 [talli]
ah, ok
00:01:06 [shagster]
Shhh..stop talking about him now :)
00:01:20 [talli]
ok
00:01:37 [talli]
can i just mention to him my dream about him and his bikini?
00:01:56 [shagster]
In private please, I don't need nightmares!
00:01:56 [shagster]
:)
00:03:10 [talli]
what's sitescope, shagster?
00:03:25 [shagster]
System monitoring package....
00:03:51 [k2pts]
k2pts has left #openacs
00:04:04 [shagster]
Check Web Sites, System Load, disk space, smtp, pop, imap
00:04:12 [talli]
is it good?
00:04:19 [shagster]
Overly expensive , but good
00:04:40 [talli]
can you think of a piece of software that IS NOT overly expensive?
00:04:55 [shagster]
I don't like it, but he has the licences
00:05:03 [shagster]
Umm postgres :)
00:05:08 [talli]
there's gotta be something out there that is worth all the money you pour into it
00:05:13 [talli]
touche :)
00:05:19 [talli]
i meant somethihng you gotta pay for
00:05:44 [talli]
windows, no
00:05:47 [talli]
oracle, no
00:05:57 [talli]
office, no
00:06:02 [talli]
photoshop, no
00:06:18 [shagster]
Actually I've used plesk (for basic web hosting clients and it is fairly good
00:06:25 [talli]
what's plesk?
00:06:55 [shagster]
Basically gives you apache, php, mysql, qmail, proftpd, etc with customer control and such
00:07:05 [shagster]
http://www.plesk.com
00:07:05 [chump]
A: http://www.plesk.com from shagster
00:07:20 [talli]
php and mysql? bite your tongue. ;)
00:07:24 [talli]
what does it do?
00:07:40 [shagster]
I use if for the quick, 'here is your website and email address see you next year' type customers
00:07:51 [talli]
ah, those are the best
00:08:17 [shagster]
Gives a rather nice control interface. Setup a client, give him access. Set his limit on mail boxes, domains, etc.
00:08:23 [talli]
so, btw, i'm down with helping you host a cleveland social, if you'd like
00:08:26 [talli]
gimme a date
00:08:53 [shagster]
Heh, I'd have to find people in cleveland (or near by) that use OpenACS...
00:09:09 [talli]
well, you'd be surprised...
00:09:14 [shagster]
I think I'm the diamond in the rough here right now...
00:09:23 [talli]
there are often lurkers that show up, and i also try to invite the local LUGs to show up as well
00:09:39 [talli]
so there are usually enough nerds that you can bring out of the woodwork
00:09:50 [talli]
usually 8-12 is a nice showing
00:09:55 [shagster]
Well, I use to be VP of the local lug :)
00:10:02 [talli]
the basic deal is just to get a few the first time, and to get people to learn something
00:10:11 [talli]
and for me to get rid of all these fscking tshirts i have
00:10:48 [shagster]
I'm trying to get people interested , but the current members of the LUG are "new" to anything non-windows
00:11:01 [talli]
nice. some LUGers
00:11:06 [shagster]
You can always send me a t-shirt! :)
00:11:06 [talli]
that's ok, though
00:11:17 [shagster]
I'm working on it a bit though...
00:11:30 [shagster]
http://cleveland.lug.net
00:11:30 [chump]
B: http://cleveland.lug.net from shagster
00:11:39 [talli]
if you offer them beer, they usually at least let you talk to them
00:11:46 [talli]
even if they're not paying attention :)
00:12:03 [shagster]
They owe me more beer that I can count
00:12:10 [shagster]
I run their game server :)
00:12:11 [talli]
:)
00:12:19 [talli]
then threaten them!
00:12:27 [shagster]
Heh..that should work :)
00:12:43 [shagster]
Of course, I get back at them...the game server is: games.manboobs.com :)
00:12:48 [talli]
anyway, getting people to listen to what the OACS is about is basically my fulltime job
00:12:54 [talli]
haha
00:13:12 [shagster]
I'm really trying to wait a bit till 4 beta is there....
00:13:29 [shagster]
(yes, I own the domain manboobs.com, by mom is SO proud)
00:13:38 [talli]
i'm there now
00:13:44 [talli]
you must be really bored
00:13:53 [shagster]
I was.....
00:14:05 [talli]
:)
00:14:18 [shagster]
I heard some people talking about postnuke, So I seen what I could do with it...
00:14:39 [talli]
4 beta is a nice milestone, but it's not such a big dealo. i've managed to convince very suspicious people that it's more than adequate
00:14:39 [shagster]
Then said...well, that sucks :)
00:14:49 [talli]
oh yeah? good to know that abotu phpnuke
00:15:11 [talli]
i asked luke about php and he said that it reminds him of a language written by high schoolers
00:15:13 [shagster]
Yea, but I know a few of the people that will be interested and if they see too much change I know they will run
00:15:58 [talli]
til, you there?
00:15:59 [shagster]
I'm not a big fan of PHP, but I've also gotten quite a few web designers into programming by showing them PHP
00:16:12 [talli]
well, that's kinda the thing...
00:16:23 [talli]
the difference between a php hacker and an OACS hacker is HUGE
00:16:27 [talli]
and i don't think that's a bad thing
00:16:59 [talli]
someone who only knows mysql should really not touch oracle, or even PG, until they have done some serious training
00:17:00 [shagster]
Yea, but PHP has an easy learning curve and is easy to teach the 'programming basics' with
00:17:18 [shagster]
Well, mysql is a completely different story :)
00:17:19 [til]
talli: sort of, yes
00:17:39 [talli]
so the people i try to convince to use OACS are not those types, but the higher level dudes
00:17:55 [talli]
til, those were some nice props you got from donb on the bboards. congrats
00:18:06 [til]
also the php implementation of arrays is horribly ugly
00:18:19 [talli]
props from donb can be a hard thing to come by. gotta earn those
00:18:21 [shagster]
ugly is too kind for it...
00:18:27 [talli]
php does arrays?
00:18:28 [til]
talli: wait until somebody really tries the script, the he will take it all back ;)
00:19:28 [talli]
mysql is a different story. it would be really great if it ever got it's shit together though and actually became a real DB
00:19:56 [talli]
til, where are you in the world?
00:20:16 [til]
talli: berlin
00:20:20 [talli]
whoa!
00:20:25 [talli]
wait, i knew that
00:20:35 [talli]
you know, hopefully in may there will be an OACS social in amsterdam
00:21:05 [til]
really? wow! that's only a few hours away, and a visit to amsterdam is always fine anyway ...
00:21:55 [til]
who is hosting it? the greenpeace people?
00:22:06 [talli]
actually, donb should be coming out as well. and yes, with the greenpeace people
00:22:22 [talli]
i don't bother either way :)
00:23:29 [shagster]
Heh......
00:23:37 [talli]
til, btw, that's a really cool thing you released
00:23:42 [talli]
thanks alot
00:23:57 [til]
send me a tshirt then ;-)
00:24:14 [talli]
sure. send me postage and handling :)
00:24:42 [talli]
someday :)
00:25:38 [til]
maybe you can manage to send some to the amsterdam social
00:25:54 [talli]
i hope to be at the amsterdam social
00:26:24 [shagster]
Hmmm.....
00:26:48 [talli]
shagster, i think that trip is the kind that can be written off, you know...
00:27:00 [talli]
"biznarse" trip
00:27:10 [shagster]
That is what the hmmm was about :)
00:27:43 [shagster]
I have enough freq-flyer miles I think
00:28:47 [shagster]
Hey, then I might actually goto Linuxworld again :)
00:29:55 [shagster]
I haven't been to one of those since I start working on the mips kernel
00:30:18 [talli]
well, i've heard that they've shrunk a great deal
00:30:29 [talli]
but the .Org Pavillion is cool
00:30:39 [talli]
they have a section that is devoted to OSS projects
00:30:40 [shagster]
Yea, too many suits....
00:31:06 [talli]
the suits have all gotten their asses kicked out, though. at least most of them
00:31:24 [talli]
many are still there, with their cheesiness, but for the most part it's reasonably organic
00:31:27 [shagster]
I guess I'll have to start showing up again....
00:31:40 [talli]
ximian's booth at the NYC one was all monkeys and shit
00:31:59 [shagster]
But I guess the booth babes are really around anymore :(
00:32:00 [talli]
kinda lame. they didn't show off mono, just evolution. cool, i guess.
00:32:12 [talli]
no, no booth babes.
00:32:23 [shagster]
Yea but I use mutt, so evalution doesn't help me
00:32:35 [til]
ximian replaces booth babes with monkeys? brr
00:32:38 [talli]
lots of potbellies and beards, though. not as many as i expected, but there are still plenty of goth sysadmins around
00:32:45 [talli]
stuffed monkeys
00:33:00 [shagster]
Heh, I'm the potbelly, no beard :)
00:33:19 [shagster]
stuff a booth babe? That sounds better...LOL
00:33:21 [talli]
got manboobs too? :)
00:33:36 [shagster]
Firm ones! LOL
00:33:54 [talli]
oh man. forget about that cleveland social...
00:34:12 [shagster]
Haha.....
00:35:31 [shagster]
Hopefully when those come out I'll have my mail stuff for OpenACS about ready....
00:35:48 [talli]
what's that? are you working on a webmail package?
00:36:04 [shagster]
Actually webmail would be the last thing....
00:36:22 [talli]
acs-mail extension?
00:36:23 [shagster]
This is more of an ISP type, virtual hosting for email
00:36:45 [shagster]
Something like http://www.inter7.com/vpopmail
00:36:47 [talli]
what's that? your OACS account merged with email account?
00:37:21 [til]
hmm, an oacs admin interface for virtual email domains?
00:37:31 [shagster]
Basically your OACS account would like you run an email domain, mailing list, etc.
00:38:56 [talli]
what are the benefits?
00:39:14 [shagster]
For me :) Centralized adminstration
00:39:26 [talli]
well, that's good for us all :)
00:39:28 [talli]
for hte user?
00:40:06 [talli]
we have a client that wanted their unix mail passwords synched with their OACS passwords
00:40:07 [shagster]
It is more for an administrator than a user
00:40:18 [talli]
i don't know how we did it, but i think it may have been via LDAP
00:40:35 [talli]
(i don't keep up with all the engineering stuff)
00:41:04 [talli]
but you may want to ping luke about how he did this. seems kinda similar. or just to mention it to him. i know this could come in handy for other projects... so we may be able to offer you some help
00:41:23 [shagster]
LDAP is nice....
00:41:47 [shagster]
but I pretty much have all my mail servers query postgres for user authentication and such :)
00:42:07 [talli]
that sounds better
00:42:21 [talli]
LDAP has always seemed like a bit of a hack to me
00:42:30 [talli]
like if you can't control all of your users, use LDAP
00:42:42 [shagster]
Well LDAP is nice at times...
00:42:43 [talli]
or if you have two systems that can't talk to each other, use LDAP
00:42:46 [talli]
that's nice, but not ideal
00:42:56 [shagster]
Right....
00:43:10 [shagster]
I'd love to use LDAP more but it just isn't ready...
00:43:46 [shagster]
And I at one time use LDAP extensively, move everything to Postgres and Sybase...
00:43:47 [talli]
well, isn't LDAP an MS tech? like aren't they the guys pushing it?
00:44:24 [shagster]
Actually Sun and Netscape pushed it, Novell actually does it well and Microsoft has now "invented it"
00:44:29 [talli]
(btw, my cat just punished my friend's kitten who i'm taking care of. flipped him on his ass and wupped it)
00:44:39 [talli]
ok, well that's enough
00:44:44 [shagster]
Hah...
00:44:58 [talli]
if the big guys are pushing it, then that usually means that its incomplete.
00:44:58 [shagster]
My cat is right now thinking about how to steal my scotch...
00:45:02 [talli]
like, uh, soap
00:45:20 [shagster]
never really uses soap....
00:45:20 [talli]
i like the way your cat thinks...
00:45:41 [talli]
soap seems really cool, but i haven't heard or seen anyone use it
00:45:42 [shagster]
Ummm....that doesn't sound right.....I never used the web SOAP stuff :)
00:46:18 [talli]
yeah, i've never really used soap, although i've had my mouth washed with it a couple of times...
00:46:19 [shagster]
I just don't have enough time to learn everything. Heck I still write CGI's in C :)
00:46:35 [talli]
somehow, the API just didn't seem right...
00:47:11 [talli]
whoa. CGI's in C, huh?
00:48:03 [shagster]
Yep, If I'm using apache..just about everything is still C
00:48:57 [talli]
when did you start coding?
00:49:28 [shagster]
about 10-12 years ago....
00:49:50 [talli]
ah, the golden age.
00:49:55 [talli]
just kidding :)
00:50:01 [shagster]
Heck, I started on FORTRAN
00:50:10 [talli]
whoa
00:50:16 [talli]
you and markd2
00:50:32 [talli]
you do know about his OpenACS/Fortran project
00:50:37 [talli]
right?
00:50:49 [shagster]
"I remember wehn we had to walk in the snow uphills both ways just to use the punchcard machine"
00:50:59 [shagster]
OpenACS Fortran, I like it
00:51:07 [talli]
i only remember ASCII pr0n
00:51:19 [talli]
mmm... vinod ASCII pr0n
00:51:38 [shagster]
ASCII Porn ruled!
00:51:57 [shagster]
Here is something sick:
00:51:59 [shagster]
http://thephooker.com/~mkovach/cgi.html
00:51:59 [chump]
C: http://thephooker.com/~mkovach/cgi.html from shagster
00:52:32 [talli]
wtf?
00:52:50 [shagster]
cgi program in fortran 90
00:52:57 [talli]
oh man
00:53:18 [talli]
C: shagster proving his l33t skillZ with a FORTRAN CGI
00:53:18 [chump]
commented item C
00:53:25 [talli]
sick bastard
00:53:28 [til]
wow
00:53:29 [shagster]
That actually ran on VMS (Alpha with Apache)
00:53:32 [talli]
what the hell were you trying to prove?
00:53:46 [shagster]
That was a management decision ... LOL
00:53:54 [til]
now start doing cgi's in brainfuck (does anybody know this language?)
00:54:19 [talli]
C: shagster: "That was a management decision ... LOL"
00:54:19 [chump]
commented item C
00:54:22 [shagster]
could have been worse the other person on the project had to use COBOL
00:55:04 [talli]
oh man
00:55:11 [talli]
was it a bank?
00:55:20 [talli]
who else would be using fortran and cobol?
00:55:21 [shagster]
We had some really stupid managers at the time
00:55:32 [shagster]
AMOCO finicials system
00:56:00 [shagster]
Basically that was the only two comilers on the system
00:56:26 [shagster]
So we had that or DCL
00:57:16 [talli]
i guess gcc was too expensive for the managers to splurge on?
00:57:39 [shagster]
gcc for Alpha VMS was really ready yet...
00:57:51 [talli]
ah, ok
00:58:19 [shagster]
Plus, I damn it was kewl
00:58:40 [talli]
true enough.
00:59:08 [shagster]
So now Im tackling OpenACS and AOLserver's APIs
01:00:10 [shagster]
Plus trying to tackle they best way to host it..
01:01:14 [talli]
how do you mean?
01:01:21 [talli]
you trying to do a hosting biz?
01:01:46 [shagster]
NO, trying to figure out how to survive a lost DB
01:02:00 [shagster]
Postgres repliacation is a bit lacking
01:02:07 [talli]
yeah, kinda sucks
01:02:15 [talli]
you mean synch or asynch?
01:02:25 [shagster]
sync
01:02:42 [shagster]
But I have have igured something out for Linux
01:02:56 [talli]
whachya doin?
01:03:26 [shagster]
Heartbeat, drbd, and pri/sec postgres servers
01:03:40 [talli]
ah, cool
01:04:03 [shagster]
May not be the best way, but I appears to be working...
01:04:04 [talli]
do you mind writing up what you do and posting it on the bboards? i know many people have run against this prob as welll...
01:04:18 [talli]
although replication is slated to be inlcuded in PG soon, AFAIK
01:04:23 [shagster]
Yea, I have that on my list of things to do...
01:04:33 [talli]
i thought 7.2, but i guess it will be in 7.3
01:04:46 [talli]
seems like it's the critical thing for the DB to take the next step
01:05:07 [shagster]
Well, since I just PG for all my email system, I need it faster that soon
01:05:23 [talli]
what do you use for your websites?
01:05:25 [shagster]
Well it is a tough thing to do right and it touches quite a bit
01:05:45 [shagster]
I use postgres mainly
01:06:01 [talli]
oh, you just use PG for your email
01:06:03 [talli]
i get it
01:06:14 [talli]
so do you use PG with IMAP?
01:06:24 [shagster]
Some customers want mysql and if I can't convert them they get mysql
01:06:29 [talli]
you can store emails in a DB with IMAP, right?
01:06:48 [shagster]
I use courier-imap and qmail, authvchpw does all the authentication
01:07:00 [shagster]
You can, I don't though....
01:07:41 [talli]
soo... you store the emails in a db or you do user auth with the db and the emails in IMAP boxes?
01:07:44 [shagster]
Qmail and Maildir are so bulletproof and can't find a benifit it using a slow DB
01:07:53 [talli]
ah, ok
01:08:12 [shagster]
Email are stored on the filesystemm
01:08:25 [shagster]
Wich is a redudant NFS server
01:09:02 [shagster]
I've actually got three pop/imap server and 4 smtp servers
01:11:20 [shagster]
* shagster checks slashdot
01:13:25 [shagster]
No marriage proposals today
01:14:53 [talli]
ok guys, i'm going downstairs to listen to some amazing jazz and drink a badly poured guiness
01:14:56 [talli]
talk to you guys later
01:15:22 [shagster]
Heh..have fun...
01:15:28 [shagster]
have one for me!
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hey davb, you there?
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15:00:36 [jim]
re.
15:36:41 [davb]
hi
15:37:05 [talli]
yo davb
15:45:55 [talli]
yo jim
15:46:03 [jim]
hiya talli
15:46:53 [jim]
I'm trying to figure good ways to fold in my ideas for etp into the package, so I can submit a neat lil patch
15:47:06 [talli]
jim, how's nsperl coming along? have you looked into denshi's suggestion about nsparrot?
15:47:11 [talli]
oh yeah?! cool!
15:48:12 [talli]
from what i've heard, ETP may be changing a bit
15:48:28 [jim]
I'm using em, but I think I'd wanna present it a different way, and I was wondering if I might get some help in design and coding?
15:49:08 [talli]
yeah, sure
15:49:11 [talli]
ping luke
15:49:34 [talli]
luke@museatech.net
15:50:14 [jim]
does he come here?
15:50:30 [talli]
no, but i'll ask him to
15:50:34 [davb]
nah, he does work instead :)
15:50:37 [talli]
he's very responsive via email
15:53:10 [davb]
http://guide.darwinmag.com/technology/web/intranet/index.html
15:53:10 [chump]
D: http://guide.darwinmag.com/technology/web/intranet/index.html from davb
15:53:18 [davb]
D:|What is an Intranet
15:53:18 [chump]
titled item D
15:53:34 [davb]
D: interesting article, what is a intraet/extranet, why do you need one, how can it save you money
15:53:34 [chump]
commented item D
15:54:56 [talli]
jim, what are your ideas
15:55:36 [jim]
first, I need plain text as well as html... at this point, etp only does html
15:55:39 [jim]
so,
15:56:15 [jim]
I wanted to put that link at the bottom of the page where you edit the content, to set the mime type to text or html
15:56:28 [jim]
or select box :)
15:57:02 [jim]
I wanted to have that mime type go into the content revision's mime type column
15:58:08 [jim]
and have the templates use <if ...> <pre> </if> and <if ...> </pre> </if>
15:58:35 [jim]
with "and" replaced by the page content :)
15:58:46 [jim]
that's part one
15:59:57 [talli]
what're your intentions?
16:00:03 [talli]
what do you want to do with it?
16:02:23 [jim]
I have some plain text files I want to put up
16:02:49 [jim]
maybe some day I'll htmlize them...
16:03:10 [jim]
and I have them up with a kludged etp template
16:03:33 [jim]
wanna see?
16:03:40 [talli]
sure
16:03:46 [jim]
they're at 12-233-187-5.client.attbi.com:9000/musical
16:04:29 [jim]
if you are a musician, they can help you :)
16:05:13 [vinod]
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16:05:32 [talli]
i'm not finding that URL jim
16:06:09 [talli]
wait, i had it in wrong
16:06:18 [davb]
jim: cool!
16:06:34 [davb]
hi vinod
16:06:58 [davb]
* davb may someday be a musician...
16:07:07 [vinod]
hey everyone!
16:07:18 [talli]
hey yourself, you two timer
16:07:34 [vinod]
two timer?
16:07:36 [jim]
davb: the chord lessons presume you can identify intervals
16:07:36 [talli]
jim, are you in the bay area?
16:07:39 [jim]
yep
16:07:58 [jim]
I'm practically underwater :)
16:08:23 [talli]
nice
16:08:26 [talli]
oaktown?
16:08:33 [talli]
i'm from los altos, next to shallow alto
16:08:36 [jim]
near there, yes :)
16:09:13 [talli]
why does www.laney.edu go to the CIS lab rather than to laney college's website?
16:09:20 [talli]
(i went to foothill for a year, btw)
16:09:42 [jim]
because the cis lab scored that domain name
16:10:08 [talli]
whoa. and they won't give it to the rest of the school?
16:10:10 [jim]
and they shouldn't have it, and not only cause they're software pirates in that lab
16:10:48 [jim]
the rest of the school doesn't understand it rightfully belongs to them
16:11:51 [talli]
haha
16:11:54 [talli]
that's amazing
16:12:15 [jim]
there's a mrtg on it, the lab streams stuff out and fills the whole T1, and won't yield it to the students
16:12:28 [jim]
laney.edu/mrtg
16:12:29 [talli]
whoa
16:12:43 [jim]
instead, they stream MP3s
16:13:03 [talli]
oh man
16:13:11 [talli]
our tax dollars at work :(
16:13:17 [jim]
yes, exactly
16:13:52 [jim]
every time it troubles me when I'm doing something while a student in that lab, I tell a new person :)
16:14:10 [jim]
the state of california is probably next, followed by the department head
16:14:20 [talli]
haha
16:16:10 [jim]
yep, they're still pretty much maxing out the T1, as we speak
16:19:50 [jim]
anyways, I don't really want to be reminded of my anger relative to that issue... let's code :)
16:27:06 [jim]
part two of my idea for etp, is to add a package instance parameter that could be viewed or set by anyone with admin over the package instance object...
16:27:14 [jim]
or two
16:27:32 [jim]
one says: content is commentable?
16:27:45 [jim]
the other says: indexes are commentable?
16:29:12 [talli]
that sounds like a really cool idea
16:29:18 [jim]
and I couldn't really decide where to put the comments on indexing pages, so there might be a third package instance param that says: comments go immediately below the content part of the index page, or immediately below the index part of the index page
16:29:34 [talli]
that's a very cool idea
16:30:36 [jim]
I rejected the idea that they should ever go -above- the content... (but if yes, then that would mean that we'd need yet another param, for the content template)
16:31:07 [talli]
that wouldn't really make sense
16:31:17 [jim]
yes, exactly
16:31:23 [talli]
it would probably set the precedent for doing something foolish with your webpages
16:32:26 [talli]
btw, jim, do you mind buying me a couple of lotta tickets? :)
16:32:53 [talli]
pay ya back after i win
16:33:04 [jim]
heh, sheesh :) you mean I have to get up outta my aeron? :)
16:33:28 [talli]
haha. well, if you have an aeron, that means you must already have WON the lottery!!!
16:33:48 [jim]
nope, I saved up for it
16:33:55 [talli]
ah. ok.
16:34:26 [talli]
btw, did you catch my question earlier about nsperl?
16:34:34 [talli]
have you thought about nsparrot at all?
16:34:36 [jim]
re: nsparrot?
16:34:44 [talli]
yeah
16:35:04 [jim]
I dunno what I wanna do there...
16:35:44 [jim]
if I get nsperl going to the degree I want, I'd like to see it interface to an oacs data model
16:35:54 [jim]
or even be a port
16:36:00 [talli]
that sounds cool
16:36:20 [jim]
tcl is not your friend (as the bootcamper advice page goes)
16:36:24 [talli]
but wouldn't parrot be a cool new way of doing it? did you look at parrot at all?
16:36:25 [jim]
but perl is :)
16:36:33 [jim]
no
16:36:40 [davb]
jim: no params for where the comments go, that is what the template is for
16:36:44 [talli]
http://www.parrotcode.org/faq/
16:36:45 [chump]
E: http://www.parrotcode.org/faq/ from talli
16:36:46 [davb]
* davb catches up...
16:36:51 [talli]
E: Parrot FAQ
16:36:52 [chump]
commented item E
16:37:03 [talli]
E: 1. What is Parrot?
16:37:04 [chump]
commented item E
16:37:04 [talli]
16:37:04 [talli]
Parrot is the new interpreter being designed from scratch to support the upcoming Perl6 language. It is being designed as a standalone virtual machine that can be used to execute bytecode compiled dynamic languages such as Perl6, but also Perl5. Ideally, Parrot can be used to support other dynamic, bytecode-compiled languages such as Python, Ruby and Tcl.
16:37:38 [talli]
E: Parrot is the new interpreter being designed from scratch to support the upcoming Perl6 language. It is being designed as a standalone virtual machine that can be used to execute bytecode compiled dynamic languages such as Perl6, but also Perl5. Ideally, Parrot can be used to support other dynamic, bytecode-compiled languages such as Python, Ruby and Tcl.
16:37:38 [chump]
commented item E
16:38:04 [davb]
talli: it would be really cool to stuff that in aolserver, but I suspect its not as easy as they make it sound there :)
16:38:26 [talli]
so nsparrot could potentially be really cool not only for perl but for python as well
16:38:39 [talli]
well, parrot is the runtime for perl 6
16:38:55 [talli]
as far as it being able to compile byte code of python, that's a different story
16:39:22 [davb]
not compile, execute :)
16:39:34 [talli]
right, sorry :)
16:39:59 [talli]
but if jim and others are working on nsperl, it might make more sense to work on nsparrot so that potentially other languages can take advantage of it as well
16:40:14 [talli]
parrot is kind of a CLI for scripting languages
16:43:26 [jim]
does perl6 exist?
16:43:35 [jim]
also, what about embedding?
16:43:38 [talli]
not yet. it's being developed as we speak
16:44:43 [jim]
I go on the #perl channel on efnet, and ask about embedding in any given language, and they kickban me...
16:44:52 [talli]
whoa
16:45:01 [talli]
nice guys. sound like OACS folks ;)
16:45:37 [talli]
btw, if there is one effort i bet the community will have a really hard time uniting for is porting hte OACS to perl.
16:45:46 [talli]
tcl may not be your friend, but perl???
16:46:03 [jim]
but the truth is, that if input streams for perl interpretation are done correctly (saving everything needed to do interpretation, to the point of "execute one perl statement and come on back with the next symbol"
16:46:05 [talli]
i know there are some serious perl hackers out there, but talk about an ugly language!
16:46:40 [jim]
), then you have the ability to embed perl into -any- language.
16:46:53 [jim]
and do it the -same- way with all of them
16:47:13 [davb]
jim: I guess that just makes too much sense :)
16:47:58 [jim]
most of the people on that channel are into perl, not perl guts
16:48:11 [talli]
ah, ok
16:48:34 [jim]
so they don't understand when I say it's possible, or should be, or be lame :)
16:49:04 [jim]
(well, I didn't say it quite like that, but I did say it should be possible)
16:49:11 [talli]
jim, do you mean you want to embed perl into tcl which is embedded in aolserver, or you want to embed perl into aolserver?
16:49:53 [jim]
talli: perl-aol is, among other things, nsperl, which is linked to the libperl library
16:50:24 [jim]
then an aolserver should be able to load nsperl as a module
16:51:36 [talli]
so... what about parrot? that is something completely different? (i am admitting ignorance and am willing to shut up if i don't know what i'm talking about)
16:52:42 [jim]
I don't know enough about parrot to know whether that's possible or useful
16:52:59 [jim]
I'm guessing definitely possible
16:54:01 [jim]
forexample, if the perl API in parrot is anything like it is in perl5, shouldn't be too hard to port (and if it's really a lot like it, then I still have the exact same bugs to fix as I do now :)
16:54:05 [talli]
it might be nice to check out. parrot promises to work with perl5 as well. it will be at the heart of the perl6 interpreter, but could be backward compatible all the way to perl4
16:54:14 [talli]
:)
16:55:15 [jim]
ok, so aolserver has threads... would the parrot need to be built to use threads too?
16:55:36 [talli]
now you're getting beyond my technical knowledge :)
16:55:45 [talli]
denshi's the guy for this stuff
16:56:13 [jim]
ok, lemme ask you this...
16:56:21 [davb]
jim: yes, the embedded language needs to use threads, at least I am pretty sure. Tcl was tweaked to be thread safe for AOLserver originally.
16:56:24 [jim]
perl has scalars... parrot has scalars?
16:56:44 [talli]
parrot is not something different from perl
16:57:00 [talli]
parrot is the name of the interpreter that is being built for perl6
16:57:29 [jim]
for the sake of the conversation, I'd like to treat it as different, in order to make comparisons :)
16:57:35 [talli]
"Parrot is a virtual machine used to efficiently execute bytecode for interpreted languages - specifically, Perl 6, although we would like to keep the door open for other languages in the future. As such, Parrot will be the core of the Perl interpreter; it will be the target platform to which Perl 6 code is compiled.
16:57:35 [talli]
"
16:59:04 [davb]
so to use Tcl or Pyhon, you would need to byte-compile them for parrot instead of the tcl or python interpreter.
16:59:13 [talli]
right
16:59:44 [talli]
or, parrot would be able to execute the tcl or python executables
17:04:27 [talli]
jim, johnseq is coming in
17:04:36 [talli]
he will help decipher the perl v parrot stuff
17:07:26 [jim]
is that denshi?
17:07:35 [talli]
no, john sequiera
17:07:42 [jim]
ahh
17:07:49 [talli]
denshi is todd gillespie
17:08:21 [jim]
(turns out denshi started with my perl-aol project, went crazy and thought about parrot for it :)
17:08:31 [jim]
I think that's how he put it :)
17:08:55 [talli]
oh, cool
17:09:38 [jim]
I think I'm forgetting the "absorbed and learned a lotta stuff" by looking at the perl internals docs before the crazy part :)
17:10:40 [jjs]
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17:10:52 [talli]
yo jjs
17:10:56 [jjs]
hey t
17:11:03 [jim]
see, perl can do a -lot- of arbitrary data structure stuff which tcl cannot do...
17:11:11 [jim]
this is because perl has:
17:11:19 [jim]
- scalars
17:11:22 [jim]
- arrays
17:11:29 [jim]
- associative arrays
17:11:51 [jim]
and references to any of the above, that can be stored in scalars
17:12:56 [jim]
perl can take scalars as arguments and return them... so you have an almost-first-class situation
17:13:40 [talli]
(jjs is getting caught up on the logs)
17:14:17 [jim]
which was my reason for wanting to join aolserver and perl, and try to expose the aolserver api by way of perl objects connected to perl references
17:15:01 [jjs]
finished reading logs...
17:15:07 [jjs]
Parrot is super-ambitious
17:15:17 [jjs]
and pretty far off as timeframes go
17:15:32 [jim]
that project is presently idle, waiting for me or someone to figure out the destructor bugs I introduced when I made my aolserver data structures as perl references
17:15:41 [jjs]
I think it'd be a wonderful way to implement some of what MS has done with their CLI
17:16:04 [jjs]
but with a focus on the dynamics languages we know and love P|erl|ython|etc
17:16:13 [jjs]
just don't hold your breath
17:16:34 [jim]
that's pretty much my impression of the present status
17:16:38 [jjs]
I think you might see something useful from mono before parrot
17:16:57 [talli]
oh yeah?
17:17:03 [talli]
well, that shuts me up :)
17:17:09 [jjs]
intel and HP have joined the effort
17:17:23 [jjs]
there's $$$ to achieve some independence from SUN
17:17:32 [jjs]
there's <$ for the next rev of perl
17:17:35 [jim]
jjs: have you done xsubs for perl?
17:17:38 [jjs]
unforunately for me
17:17:51 [jjs]
no - I'm no C hacker, just a database guy
17:19:02 [jim]
One important thing perl can do is be embedded in other languages...
17:20:12 [jim]
you might have seen in the logs that I have this idea about special input streams used to interpret perl one statement at a time
17:21:26 [jim]
what you should be able to do, is go "until $NextSymbol starts with '%>', try to run one more perl statement"
17:22:50 [jim]
this would potentially allow embedding in any other language, using a common approach
17:23:56 [jim]
(which might involve changing the symbol which would stop the perl interpreting)
17:24:58 [jim]
when you look at aolserver, that could mean:
17:25:10 [jim]
- html/adp
17:25:14 [jim]
- tcl
17:25:59 [davb]
jim: any reason why perl is the better choice to do this? :)
17:26:18 [jim]
perl as opposed to parrot?
17:26:39 [jim]
or as opposed to tcl?
17:26:43 [davb]
or python, ruby, lisp etc. :)
17:27:39 [jim]
when you compare to tcl, you find perl can do arbitrary data structures, at least by reference, and those references are first-class
17:27:53 [jim]
scheme might be nice,
17:28:02 [jim]
but potentially scary
17:28:22 [davb]
ah. so its the limitation of tcl data structures, or lack thereof
17:29:25 [jim]
also, scheme doesn't have a way to do things like (print "foo and $firstNames $lastName was going to the $place today")
17:29:49 [davb]
ah, yeah that is very handy in web stuff.
17:30:20 [jim]
perl and python can, and I bet you could define a way in scheme, probably like this:
17:31:05 [jim]
(print (interpolate "foo and $firstNames $lastName was going to the $place today" current_environment))
17:31:46 [davb]
of course :)
17:31:56 [davb]
or just forget the print part :)
17:32:25 [jjs]
I have to go... one thing I wanted to mention before heading out
17:32:36 [jjs]
the zope community paid activestate to enable perl support
17:32:47 [jjs]
it was a total flop - nobody cared about it
17:33:03 [jjs]
because anyone who looked at it figured that it was and would remain a
17:33:11 [jjs]
second class citizen in terms of platform support
17:33:20 [jim]
well, right, but you might define (printi string env) as (print (interpolate string env))
17:33:25 [jjs]
(no docs written for zope-perl, fewer libraries exposed)
17:33:47 [jjs]
i love perl... but I'm not sure adding ACS support would really get much traction
17:33:49 [jjs]
jjs -out
17:34:07 [jim]
which was why my first idea was to expose all of the aolserver's api to it, in an efficient manner
17:34:26 [jim]
morning, nice to meetcha
17:35:41 [jim]
(jjs: if you want to leave irc, you can "/quit")
17:36:44 [jim]
totally leaving out making it perl-friendly or acs-friendly
17:37:41 [jim]
have that layer be as efficient as possible (passing around special scalars representing the aolserver data structures to the aolserver api calls)
17:38:32 [jim]
once you have that much, a port of *acs would be relatively straightforward :)
17:57:16 [dlk]
dlk is now known as dlk-gone-home
18:10:42 [jim]
I think that would be doubly true in the case of openacs and perl...
18:11:11 [jim]
perl would be a fourth-class citizen, interms of its being supported :)
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23:39:19 [GEM]
Hi Talli
23:39:28 [talli]
hey GEM
23:45:51 [GEM]
How's life?
23:45:58 [talli]
not bad, you?
23:46:51 [GEM]
pretty good, thanks.
23:47:20 [GEM]
had fun seeing the openacs "Buy a used car" stuff - I was in an accident two weeks ago that totalled my car
23:48:04 [talli]
well, i guess you're a lucky man then! i mean, i bet you just needed an excuse to buy a used car!
23:48:10 [talli]
are you ok?
23:49:20 [GEM]
I'm OK, thanks, as is my wife, who was in the car with me. I really did not need this at the moment
23:49:39 [talli]
understood. were youby yourself?
23:50:13 [GEM]
No, my wife was in the car. FOrtunately, it was my car, and I was driving