00:36:45 http://cspar181.uah.edu/RbS/JOB/prog00.html 00:36:46 A: http://cspar181.uah.edu/RbS/JOB/prog00.html from talli 00:36:59 A: Some Important Theological Questions Would Be Answered If God Were A Computer Programmer 00:36:59 commented item A 00:37:21 A: Where will I go after I die? Onto a DAT tape. 00:37:21 commented item A 01:51:18 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.69.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 01:56:06 davb (~chatzilla@alb-24-58-161-172.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 02:08:38 k2pts (~nkd@adsl-168-174.cytanet.com.cy) has joined #openacs 02:10:08 vinod (~vinod@216-164-248-20.s2496.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs 02:10:21 CSari (~CSari@pm202.isomedia.com) has joined #openacs 02:10:34 *waves hello* 02:10:48 hi CSari 02:11:37 today is plunge day.. I'm downloading oacs4... 02:11:44 woohoo! 02:12:10 at least to look at. if it scares me too badly i might stick with 3.2.5 ... 02:12:17 the beta install docs are up at http://kurup.com/acs/openacs4 02:12:34 excellent, thanks :) 02:12:50 hi vinod 02:12:52 np - let me know if any of the docs are confusing 02:12:57 hey davb 02:13:10 4 is the way to go. 02:13:31 You can mostly ignore the parts you don't understand yet, that's what I do :) 02:13:52 i think davb knows more of openacs4 than anybody, though! 02:13:58 heh 02:14:02 that is _very_ scary 02:14:08 *smiles* hopefully i'll understand the parts I need anyway... I've gotten kinda attached to 3x .. at least I've figured out the parts I needed to change. 02:14:17 I suspect DonB and company know a little more 02:14:34 4 is worth it just for the template system. 02:14:43 agreed 02:14:49 templating is very cool 02:15:01 davb: I finished the datamodel. I wanna post them to the forums tomorrow for discussion (4 o' clock here)....sending by email (that's dave at designexperience.org) 02:15:26 thedesignexperience.org 02:15:30 ok 02:15:36 cool. I'll look at tomorrow 02:15:37 I'll include some comments 02:15:53 i didn't do anything with templating with 3x. My one "real" 3x site I did with hacked ad_header and ad_footer. Stupid, but true. 02:15:55 I have to fix something...spent the night answering emails... 02:16:06 so have that in mind... 02:16:18 np. 02:16:27 yeah. I'd use oacs4 just for the templating system 02:16:41 CSari: yeah, the templating is much more powerful in 4.x -actually makes it worth using. i used to be a ad-header/footer junkie ;-) 02:17:00 talli: what's luke's email (luke at museatech.net)? 02:17:22 plus the db-abstraction api makes things a lot easier (although that was also there in acs 3.4.x) 02:17:24 k2pts: that works 02:17:35 (lukes email) 02:17:36 ok 02:17:38 thx 02:18:06 I need to actually write some code instead of just porting stuff so I can learn more. 02:19:48 hmm... anyone done Jonathan's rpm install? call me lazy, but if i can do it without goofing up my 3x install, i'd rather.. 02:20:20 i haven't, but he's really responsive if things don't work 02:20:39 I used the first one and it worked well, but most of use use debian :) 02:21:57 i've got a mandrake system, and the 3.2.5 rpm worked like a dream. i'm just looking at his oaks4 directions and getting worried since it discusses a fresh install 02:22:08 ...like I've got a spare test box kicking around. *sigh*... 02:23:40 docwolf has quit ("What happens if i press this bu") 02:24:16 vinod: is there a doc somewhere about running 3.x and 4? 02:24:45 I think as long as you use a different tcl file and different port number, you are ok. 02:24:53 kinda - my brief openacs install guide talks about it a bit 02:25:07 different aolserver config file that is. 02:25:10 i've already got virtual hosting for 2 sites going, so i figured it shouldn't be bad. 02:25:39 what version of aolserver are you using? 02:25:54 http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/one-file?file_id=114 02:26:02 3.3.1+ad13 02:26:15 ok. all you need extra is nsxml 02:26:28 well, and make that check payable to "Vinod Kurup".... 02:26:38 :-) :-) :-) 02:26:39 hehe 02:26:57 excellent, thank you for the link 02:27:18 you forgot the paypal button, of course. 02:27:28 unfortunately, markd2 says i have to set it all aside for taxes, c/o badgertronics.com 02:29:16 talilee (~talli@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #openacs 02:29:35 well lookee here. is the circus in town? 02:29:39 everyone's here tonight 02:30:03 i'd just like everyone to notice how civilized things were up until a few moments ago 02:30:30 * talilee picks up his club and opens up his can of Savagery Special 02:30:38 * vinod ducks 02:30:41 vinod: we all know you were saving up until talli got here... 02:31:07 my repertation presedes me 02:33:10 anyone know how to find the technical contact for an arbitrary domain? 02:33:34 whois? 02:34:11 whois badgertronics.com -> DM Hostmaster (DH3299-ORG) hostmaster@DIGITAL-MISSION.COM 02:35:54 http://www.mnot.net/cgi_buffer/ 02:35:54 B: http://www.mnot.net/cgi_buffer/ from davb 02:36:01 B:|cgi_buffer 02:36:01 titled item B 02:36:14 i got a weird question 02:36:27 does vinod really look better in fishnets? 02:36:31 i got another one 02:36:44 anyone know steve wozniak's email addy? 02:36:48 vinod: thanks 02:36:58 can anything make vinod look better than he already does? 02:37:00 B: cgi_buffer is a group of libraries used to improve performance of CGI 02:37:00 commented item B 02:37:03 markd2: np 02:37:11 B: scripts (and other content generation engines) in some circumstances, by 02:37:11 commented item B 02:37:21 vinod: perhaps a shave of the back? 02:37:27 B: applying performance-enhancing HTTP mechanisms that are typically not supported by them. 02:37:27 commented item B 02:37:29 should be on woz.org somewhere 02:38:12 talilee: what were you doing looking at my back? 02:38:43 i was looking to test my new lawn mower 02:44:27 http://arstechnica.com/paedia/n/net/net-1.html 02:44:27 C: http://arstechnica.com/paedia/n/net/net-1.html from davb 02:44:39 C:|Microsoft .Net on ArsTechnica 02:44:39 titled item C 02:44:51 C: a technical overview 02:44:51 commented item C 02:45:25 talilee has left #openacs 02:45:53 Starets (~petej@home.clickvision.com) has joined #openACS 02:47:00 yo 02:47:04 C: very interesting reading, the first reall information I have seen 02:47:04 commented item C 02:47:06 oi. 02:48:59 I have a question. Should keywords be different from categories for describing OpenACS content? Or is it all the same thing? 02:49:43 well, they sound like 2 different things to me 02:49:55 an item should belong to one category, but can have many keywords 02:50:14 but i haven't been following any of the category discussions at all (over my head) 02:50:17 vinod, why can't a item be in more than one category? 02:50:20 :) 02:50:36 i spose it could 02:50:39 I nned to know what the difference is myself, or if there should be one. 02:51:00 I think maybe the categories should be arranged in a tree, but keywords should just be a list. 02:51:14 not a tree...a network. 02:51:56 ok right. I think that is how k2pts is doing it. 02:52:08 now I am reading about a keyword category... 02:52:23 keywords arise from the content of an item, whereas categories are usually assigned, so it's possible to have a category for an item where the name of the category doesn't appear in the item "text" 02:52:38 imo 02:52:47 Ok. that is a good start. 02:53:44 I think I need a librarian :) 02:53:50 I think of categories as a semantic organization tool, while keywords provide unstructured search assistance 02:54:12 yes, that is what I was thinking. 02:55:04 is that how cr_keywords works now? 02:55:20 no 02:55:22 "fruit flies" could be about the aerodynamics of organic seed distribution media, or it could be about biological organisms; you'd have to assign the category, but the keywords just happen. 02:55:56 well I think keywords can also be assigned to make an item more relevant for certain searches. 02:56:27 vinod: in cr_keywords, there is a list of keywords. If a keyword has children, its called a keyword category. 02:56:32 I guess what I'm saying is that I wouldn't infer meaning from the keywords for an item, but I would infer meaning from the categories. 02:57:19 ok. I am looking around and alot of library sites have search by keyword, subject, category, so they seem to think thery are different things. 02:57:36 Librarians are smart. 02:58:29 i agree keywords and categories are different.. although I'd think about subjects as being categories with lots of children... 02:59:04 Well in a library the subject is a special part of the book metadata I think. 02:59:33 Starets has quit ("Fixx'm 1.5ad MacOS X") 03:00:59 ok, I think I have it. categories might be part of a site structure where keywords would just describe the document. 03:01:52 sounds good to me :-) 03:02:07 til has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 03:03:41 Ok, thanks for listening! I'll be back tomorrow :) 03:03:49 davb: I have emailed the datamodel 03:03:57 and some ideas/thoughts 03:04:20 I'll post to the forums tomorrow evening (I hope) a request for comments/suggestions 03:05:02 ok. 03:05:14 I'll look at it tomorrow. 03:05:53 thx, later 03:05:56 k2pts has left #openacs 03:07:12 cool, it looks good. 03:07:17 well goodnight 03:07:18 davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.5 [Mozilla rv:0.9.8/20020204]") 03:10:58 uhm. was there actual OACS4 discussion going on tonight? 03:11:13 like, people were talking about the merits of one approach over another? 03:11:43 no. davb was mostly just talkin to himself 03:11:53 i added reassuring grunts here and there 03:12:00 man, can't you prescribe something for that vinod? 03:12:19 for davb, and for your grunting problem 03:12:23 nah, i don't believe in modern medicine 03:12:24 mostly for your grunting problem 03:12:42 it just pays the bills 03:12:46 oh yeah? how do the MIT students feel about your blood letting and leeches procedures? 03:13:15 as long as it gets them back to doing their problem sets, they're happy 03:13:18 hmm... i got told how wonderful the new templating system is.. that was oacs4 related. 03:13:28 oh yeah! 03:13:29 it didn't last long, of course. 03:13:37 that's 2 on-topic discussions in 1 night 03:13:44 dangerous. dangerous. 03:13:55 both when talli wasn't around 03:14:04 don't worry.. vinod will prolly have his pants off in a minute or two, since talli is here. 03:14:13 * talli curses the moment CSari came into the channel. a woman will always get men to focus! 03:14:18 did CSari just ask me to take my pants off? 03:14:20 whoa. 03:14:23 she wins! 03:14:23 no. 03:14:39 that was a serious touche CSari 03:14:48 we may even need a ruling by markd2 on that one 03:15:09 lol 03:19:33 vinod, you know i keep forgetting to mention to you that the docs you emailed to me were the original docbook files from aD, not the ones you were working on 03:19:35 * markd2 wakes up 03:19:44 CSari is toucheing vinod? 03:19:57 and Vinod's webcam isn't on! 03:20:01 * talli strokes markd2 head reassuring to get him back to sleep 03:20:41 * markd2 purrs 03:20:45 * markd2 goes back to sleep 03:20:48 markd2, we need a ruling on CSari's retort. i think it might be pretty decent. 03:20:59 talli: are you sure? i used their template, but i changed a lot of the text 03:21:01 I give it an A 03:21:06 i can send you a newer copy 03:21:10 yeah, do so 03:21:40 ding ding. CSari, an A is good, but you'll have to try harder to get on the quotes file. ask vinod what it takes... 03:22:03 thx vinod, for the new copy 03:22:19 hey, only my second day here... and i don't even have oacs4 installed yet. 03:22:26 true true. 03:22:27 I think she's doing pretty well 03:22:30 you done good, girl. 03:22:35 * markd2 is talking in his sleep, of course 03:22:55 * talli wonders who is typing what markd2 is speaking 03:23:21 that's markd2's secret project 03:23:33 shhh! 03:23:38 ooo!! secrets! i love secrets! 03:23:45 i watch the X Files every week 03:24:12 and i keep a journal hidden behing my bed's head board where i write down how much i love vin - d'oh! 03:24:20 why do you think he's been programming in those dead languages fortran and objective-c 03:24:29 awwwww 03:24:29 black magic? 03:24:35 i love you too talli! 03:24:57 *shudder* fortran.. 03:24:58 muahahahaha. 03:24:59 * talli throws a roundhouse at vinod's head 03:25:20 * talli follows by throwing a square cabin at vinod's groin 03:25:50 * vinod moves out of his closet into his new square cabin 03:26:01 time to take my A and go.. see you guys later! 03:26:14 l8r 03:26:17 finally! i told you would be much happier once you came out! 03:26:20 later CSari 03:26:26 CSari has quit () 03:30:41 got the docs, thanks vinod 03:31:20 np 03:31:48 vinod, do you pronounce your name vih-node or vih-nod? 03:31:51 or perhaps hal-jah-like-ah-kik? 03:32:41 ugh 03:32:54 works well in medical circles 03:32:57 that's a nice association to have with your name 03:33:05 lymph nodes are great! 03:33:14 they fight illness and disease! 03:33:33 hmm... yes, well you should always aim high, i guess. 03:37:26 estanchier (~rolf@above.badgertronics.com) has joined #openacs 03:37:47 talli has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 03:37:48 Staunch Markd2 03:38:20 estanchier has quit (Client Quit) 03:39:17 talli (~talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 03:39:29 staunch estanchier 03:39:50 uh oh. is something getting staunched? 03:40:07 * markd2 smells a staunch in the air 03:40:41 whoops. sorry. burrito for lunch. 03:40:58 extra pico de stauncho 03:47:44 http://www.himonkey.net/holiday/ghd/index.html 03:47:44 D: http://www.himonkey.net/holiday/ghd/index.html from markd2 03:47:56 D:|HiMonkey takes on Groundhog Day 03:47:56 titled item D 03:48:05 D: Includes cookies! 03:48:05 commented item D 03:58:37 markd2 has quit ("wheeeee") 06:32:01 vinod has quit ("changing universes") 07:07:02 dlk-gone is now known as dlk 08:00:09 andyn has quit (Remote closed the connection) 08:00:57 andyn (~andy@12-254-190-230.client.attbi.com) has joined #openacs 08:01:46 andyn has quit (Client Quit) 08:01:47 andyn (~andy@12-254-190-230.client.attbi.com) has joined #openacs 09:00:53 andyn has quit (Remote closed the connection) 09:01:34 andyn (~andy@12-254-190-230.client.attbi.com) has joined #openacs 09:44:52 dlk has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:45:04 dario (dlk@walter.ita.chalmers.se) has joined #openacs 09:45:24 dario is now known as dlk 09:45:34 wheeha.... nickserv is back 10:44:45 dlk is now known as dead-man-walkning 13:21:13 dead-man-walkning is now known as dlk 13:21:38 dlk is now known as dead-man-walking 13:38:58 dead-man-walking is now known as dlk 13:59:54 davb (~dave@rrcs-nys-24-97-22-203.biz.rr.com) has joined #openacs 14:09:31 Starets (~petej@home.clickvision.com) has joined #openACS 14:12:26 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.65.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 14:18:40 davb has quit () 14:24:53 davb (~dave@rrcs-nys-24-97-22-203.biz.rr.com) has joined #openacs 14:56:03 davb has quit () 14:58:28 * markd2 wakes up and looks around at the wreckage 14:58:34 must have been some party last night 14:59:19 Starets has quit ("Fixx'm 1.5ad MacOS X") 14:59:32 Starets (~petej@home.clickvision.com) has joined #openACS 15:04:34 Starets has left #openACS 15:05:39 Starets (~Starets@home.clickvision.com) has joined #openacs 15:08:44 http://slashdot.org/articles/02/02/14/143254.shtml?tid=166 15:08:44 E: http://slashdot.org/articles/02/02/14/143254.shtml?tid=166 from markd2 15:08:55 E:| CmdrTaco proposes online 15:08:55 titled item E 15:09:20 i liked the post, "I sent this in three days ago!!!" 15:09:29 LOL 15:10:17 I liked the poll version of the question 16:01:48 dlk is now known as dlk-gon 16:12:07 markd2 has quit ("wheeeee") 16:31:10 Starets has left #openacs 16:48:18 dlk-gon is now known as dlk-phone-home 16:49:58 Starets (~Starets@home.clickvision.com) has joined #openacs 17:04:28 davb (~dave@rrcs-nys-24-97-22-203.biz.rr.com) has joined #openacs 17:08:41 http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html 17:08:41 F: http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html from davb 17:08:53 F:|Tase for Makers - Paul Graham 17:08:53 titled item F 17:09:22 F: "We need good taste to make good things. Instead of treating beauty as an airy abstraction, to be either blathered about or avoided depending on how one feels about airy abstractions, let's try considering it as a practical question: how do you make good stuff? 17:09:22 commented item F 17:11:44 k2pts (~nkd@adsl-168-174.cytanet.com.cy) has joined #openacs 17:12:04 hello k2pts 17:12:08 hey dave 17:12:25 did you receive my email. I have just posted to the forums about categories in openacs-4 17:13:40 yes I received it. I have to look at it more. I checked it a little last night. 17:13:44 looks pretty good I think. 17:14:10 just read my posting. there's not much more in the datamodel... 17:14:23 that will save you some time... 17:14:50 actually the posting is very similar to what I have send you last night. sorry, I was lazy to write something else 17:15:16 np :) 17:27:46 k2pts: you figured out the mising piece I didn't think of. Mapping categories to pacakges, so bboard can have its own categories, but they map back to the master list. 17:30:54 Does the tree_sortkey mechanism work like Celko's nested-set model for hierarchies in SQL? 17:32:22 Starets: don't know (probably not -- explanation follows). do you have a link for that? 17:32:55 http://www.intelligententerprise.com/001020/celko1_1.shtml 17:32:55 G: http://www.intelligententerprise.com/001020/celko1_1.shtml from Starets 17:33:11 G titled Trees in SQL 17:33:20 G: titled Trees in SQL 17:33:20 commented item G 17:34:15 my friends Oleg and Teodor built a nice tree contrib module based on gist. It seems though that our solution is better for our purposes (the contrib module has a restriction on the number of nodes, I think 64K) 17:34:25 thanks for the link...I'll check it out 17:35:21 This model has the advantage of being very clean in terms of SQL, but I have no idea how it will perform under load on a big dataset. Some of the SQL is deceptively simple, but can modify a large number of rows in the table at one time. 17:37:40 the tree_sortkey mechanism can represent hierarchies as those in the article and it's very efficient. In the article, each node has a right and left children. Using the tree_sortkey mechanism, you only need the parent of each node...The tree_sortkey can be used to collect the children of a node or it's ancestors... 17:38:40 this one has no limits to number of nodes or children. 17:40:06 G: |Trees in SQL 17:40:06 commented item G 17:40:10 yes but how can you collect nodes with just one pass. afaik (I don't know much about connect by) you cannot do it by one pass. the tree_sortkey mechanism can 17:41:17 dave: yes, ain't that great? 17:41:22 When you say "collect nodes", do you mean something like finding a node and all children? 17:41:31 yeap 17:41:40 G:|Trees in SQL 17:41:40 titled item G 17:41:46 Aha! 17:42:02 btw, I'm Neophytos 17:42:04 See page 2 -- it's a single SQL statement. Look at the first and second examples. 17:42:07 I'm Pete. 17:42:13 Demetriou :) 17:43:05 Selecting subtrees is pretty quick with this; my fear is that there are degenerate cases in insertions and deletions. 17:43:42 I didn't checkout the second page, earlier. yes, it's like the tree_sortkey mechanism 17:44:02 s/it's like/it seems like 17:44:03 hey k2pts 17:44:03 Pardon my laziness, but is there an URL for tree_sortkey? 17:44:05 I just browsed 17:44:06 hey Starets 17:44:06 hey talli 17:44:15 hey talli. 17:44:56 Starets: search the bboard or the 4.x central page. I learned about the tree_sortkey mechanism by reading the source code... 17:45:12 G: Starets struggles to learn chump 17:45:12 commented item G 17:45:21 hi chump 17:45:24 chump: hi 17:45:24 Not understood: hi 17:45:28 chump, hi 17:45:37 dave: how do you say hi to chump 17:45:55 'sokay. I see there's googlage. 17:46:29 np. have to write an announcement for the pre-release of the new openfts...bbiaw 17:47:17 openfts? 17:47:29 Starets, openfts is the new search package for PG 17:47:40 k2pts is one of the openfts wizards 17:47:56 http://openfts.sourceforge.net 17:47:56 H: http://openfts.sourceforge.net from k2pts 17:47:56 Ah. Thanks. BTW, is there a recommended replication solution for PG yet? Googlage seems murky. 17:48:13 not really 17:48:23 Dang. 17:48:30 you mean synchronous or asynchronous replication/ 17:48:31 ? 17:48:41 Hoping for async. 17:48:45 k2pts: I don't know if you can :) 17:48:49 that shouldn't be a prob 17:48:57 I think docwold did it once... 17:49:04 techent.postgresql.org for replication info 17:49:14 Starets: don't listen to talli about technical stuff :) 17:49:16 wait thats oracle :) 17:49:31 Was looking for (sorry) MySQL-equivalent functionality. 17:49:39 * Starets hangs head in shame 17:50:15 make that techdocs.postgresql.org 17:50:22 it has links to whatever is out there. 17:50:23 Starets, in here people end up sleeping with the fishes in new concrete boots for talking stuff like that. 17:50:38 [Global Notice] Hi all. Just a reminder that non-critical announcements and OPN administrative information can be found on WALLOPS. One of the following commands should turn on WALLOPS on your client: /umode +w, /mode +w, /quote mode +w, /rawmode mode +w .... Thanks, and thank you for using OPN! 17:51:09 davb: no clear winner appears, and pages like erserver.com seem not updated in a scary long time. 17:52:48 ah. I never checked. Hopefully someone has something in the works. 17:53:34 tree_sortkey is not like Celko's Trees in SQL. 17:53:38 FWIW. 17:54:46 Starets: please explain. I have just browsed the article but it looked a lot like tree_sortkey 17:55:53 Tree_sortkey appears to maintain the parent node id as part of the item's info, right? And then uses a sortkey value to help get things sorted right in aggregate operations. Am I reading it right? 17:55:58 Starets, feel free to correct k2pts english. make fun of it, if you feel like it. (this is in response to k2pts flagrant denigration of my technical knowledge) 17:56:16 btw, anyone know why my internet is acting funny? it just doesn't wotk good. 17:56:30 Sorry, hon, I'm from Baltimore. We're not allowed to make fun of how others talk. 17:56:53 i think it has to do with the thingie that touches the computer and wraps into the wall 17:56:56 but i don't know 17:57:06 The cat? 17:57:41 no, the cats are plotting their next attacks on one another. they're far from the comptuers 17:57:53 btw, k2pts, isn't synch replication supposed to come into PG soon/ 17:57:54 ? 17:58:15 Does synch repl mean that if one is down, they're all down? 17:59:00 no, that one db is replicated immediately. 18:00:29 Anyway, in nested sets, the record keeps it's position in a linear walk of the nodes, from left-to-right. So it knows it's left node, and it's right node. Using aggregate operations in SQL, you can use this to get hierarchical lists from self-joins. 18:00:30 bbl lunch 18:00:46 Node IDs can be any increasing sequence; no special values required. 18:01:24 The bummer is that if you insert a node in the "middle", you have to update everything to it's "right", which can, I imagine, be expensive. But it's a simple update, done in one SQL statement. 18:01:48 I've used it before, and it works amazingly well, but I haven't tried it on a really big dataset. 18:02:12 You have to really pay attention to the examples in the article, but they do make sense. 18:03:27