00:36:24 <docwolf> ugh
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01:18:37 <davb> * davb returns
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01:30:04 <davb> hi markd2
01:36:04 <markd2> greetings
01:46:42 <jim> ok, almost got this going...
01:47:52 <jim> seems like get_gc_link can't be found, and I tried etp::get_gc_link (see: packages/edit-this-page/tcl/etp-gc.tcl)
01:48:18 <davb> jim: check packages/edit-this-page/edit-this-page.info
01:48:31 <jim> ahh
01:48:33 <davb> I don't think that gc library file is listed so its not sourced.
01:49:59 <jim> ok, I was gonna factor it anyway
01:58:06 <jim> * jim factors into a file in /web/server/tcl/
02:01:51 <jim> ok, now it's running it
02:02:01 <davb> you can just add it to the info file :)
02:02:21 <jim> that might be an idea, or separate package
02:02:59 <davb> It should probably go in ETP beucase it just enables comments for etp (unless we are talking about something else :)
02:03:47 <jim> I''m also factoring into "gimme just the link, no center" and "gimme just the items"
02:04:10 <jim> but -maybe- I should unhtmlify the items too
02:04:32 <jim> well, better to get this working first
02:05:39 <davb> "Bottom line is that I would only choose an open source product that is entirely backed by a developer community and not depending heavily on any particular company. This seems to me the best guarantee for continuity." quote from CMS-LIST partially in reference to aD
02:07:10 <davb> jim: yes, general comments could use a little sprucing up
02:08:29 <davb> is it time for me to plug openacs i wonder?
02:09:36 <talli> davb: i guess they'd never heard of OACS, huh?
02:10:22 <davb> no, I am sure some people on that list have. But noone who hangs out there uses it except me :) I think I will just mention if you like ACS you will like OACS even better.
02:10:47 <talli> yeah, that might be good. 
02:11:16 <talli> the thing about CMS is, for the most part, that it's a solved problem. at least it seems like that to me.
02:11:28 <davb> woah. not with these guys.
02:11:48 <talli> are these guys good?
02:11:51 <davb> most of them are tossing around the >$100,000 names
02:12:02 <talli> well... 
02:12:10 <davb> alot of them are people who are buying a solution for a company, not the developers.
02:12:21 <talli> ok, that says enough, really.
02:12:22 <davb> and quite a few marketing people...
02:12:27 <davb> :)
02:12:48 <talli> i must say that i don't know how aD could have screwed up their CMS project so much
02:12:56 <davb> but every few months a OpenSource, roll your own, or what? thread goes around.
02:12:59 <markd2> in java-land?
02:13:08 <talli> luke built ETP in a few weeks, and it was instantly more useable and extensible
02:13:11 <talli> java or tcl
02:13:27 <markd2> I'm pretty sure it was the second system effect
02:13:31 <davb> I think with a couple of developers workflow and that stuff could be added in a few more weeks.
02:13:47 <talli> i imagine if aD hadn't wasted so much godforsaken time on bebop, they may have been more successful
02:13:56 <davb> they put in everything....whether anyone wanted it or not.
02:13:57 <talli> markd2, is that a reasonably assumption?
02:14:16 <talli> s/resonably/reasonable
02:14:29 <talli> davb: you're right.
02:14:39 <talli> but the UI!! what was up?
02:14:45 <davb> there was none.
02:15:02 <talli> spolsky and city desk seemed to have taken a much more simple approach
02:15:05 <davb> it was designed by engineers who could understand it because it mirrors the data model.
02:15:07 <talli> that, uh, works
02:15:39 <talli> but frames? in 2000? why not use horse and buggy instead of TCP/IP?
02:15:46 <davb> I still like the nice software on the server side integrated with the desktop tools you like.
02:16:14 <davb> hopefully I can make it work.
02:16:17 <talli> i agree. that's the ideal solution
02:16:27 <markd2> talli: I don't think lack of bebop would have helped the CMS
02:16:32 <talli> but i think the server side stuff should be pretty stripped down
02:16:40 <markd2> the 4.x CMS was a second-system effect of some client work
02:16:49 <markd2> and the java was a lame reimplementation of that
02:16:50 <talli> oh yeah? didn't know that...
02:16:53 <talli> oh man.
02:17:01 <davb> talli: yeah, most people do not need all the functionality of OACS
02:17:14 <talli> but what was the reasoning for bebop?
02:17:14 <jim> well, maybe the items could be returned as a multirow data source instead of an html string, so graphic designer could have mroe control
02:17:45 <jim> not sure how you would "return" a multirow data source tho
02:18:14 <talli> anyway, it's over. 
02:18:26 <davb> jim: you have to build it.
02:18:48 <markd2> a lot of the java acs nastiness was "gee, wouldn't it be cool if...."
02:18:54 <markd2> it was a playground for the 'engineering' group
02:19:03 <markd2> who had no idea about building a robust web toolkit
02:19:06 <talli> bummer.
02:19:16 <davb> problem for the "we have paying clients groups"
02:19:28 <talli> took the words outta my mouth davb :)
02:19:34 <markd2> by that time, there were almost no (paying, or otherwise) clients
02:20:09 <jim> there were never very many, were there?
02:20:12 <davb> jim: there are procs to build a multirow datasource. its an array of lists I think. then the tcl file passes it to the adp as a multirow.
02:20:37 <davb> there is a good example in www/etp.tcl I think
02:20:47 <talli> davb: as someone without a "CS degree" you sure are a fountain of info
02:20:58 <jim> ok, I'll take a look at all that :)
02:21:35 <davb> heh, I have been through almost every line of ETP. I am way better when someone asks a question..:)
02:24:44 <jim> the get_gc_link isn't working, cause it needs pa... should I alter the proc so it accepts it?
02:25:53 <davb> sure, go ahead, its you copy :). I am not sure. I amnot sure what it is supposed to do and I can't look right now :)
02:26:06 <jim> ok, np :)
02:36:28 <markd2> davb has better skillZ than some folks (even from MIT) with CS degrees
02:36:45 <talli> that's pretty clear
02:37:02 <davb> thats because I read the code and pay attention when I ask questions.
02:37:23 <talli> what? not quite clear on what you're trying to say there... ;)
02:37:29 <markd2> heh
02:37:34 <markd2> plus you don't position yourself as God's Gift to coding
02:38:05 <davb> I know how to learn :)
02:38:10 <davb> http://philip.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=000taw&topic_id=
02:38:10 <chump> A: http://philip.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=000taw&topic_id= from davb
02:38:21 <davb> A:|PhilG on Paul Graham and Arc
02:38:21 <chump> titled item A
02:40:10 <davb> A: " Let's end this on a bright note. Some students at Rice University do a Web application development class sort of like 6.171 at MIT. As at MIT they are allowed to use any tools that they like. By the end of the semester about 60 percent have chosen to use Scheme for server-side scripting! So there is hope for the young generation..." phillip greenspun
02:40:10 <chump> commented item A
02:42:36 <davb> I wonder if I should ask Paul Graham is he has any docs for viaweb/yahoo store. yahoo sure doesn't have any.
02:42:54 <talli> that would certainly be interesting
02:43:37 <davb> I thought the environment was evil, because it protected the developer too much from himself.
02:43:55 <talli> what environ? lisp?
02:43:59 <davb> it was way to time consuming to change to build a tempalte.
02:44:03 <davb> no yahoo store.
02:44:18 <talli> ah, ok
02:44:30 <davb> enough on that, the memories are too painful...
02:44:38 <talli> :)
02:44:39 <markd2> heh
02:45:00 <davb> "What excites me was the way arsDigita had a personal voice on the Internet that made it possible to relate to it in a human way, which is what people want to do, since we're humans."
02:45:16 <docwolf> lars is human?
02:45:20 <talli> :)
02:45:27 <davb> Joel Spolsky on aD
02:45:47 <talli> lars' article on aD is good, too
02:45:59 <docwolf> eve's is a riot.
02:46:00 <markd2> where's lars' article?
02:46:07 <talli> should be pinds.com
02:50:16 <davb> wow
02:50:35 <davb> he's my hero
02:53:36 <markd2> any more out there besides eve's and lars'?
03:11:22 <davb> goodnight
03:11:30 <talli> late
03:11:42 <markd2> nite
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13:11:03 <davb> Cool. Chump scopped slashdot!
13:11:14 <davb> One Runtime to Bind Them All
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13:11:22 <davb> posted by davb at 2002-02-09 14:06
13:11:36 <davb> Developers: One Runtime To Bind Them All
13:11:44 <davb> Posted by Hemos  on Saturday February 09, @05:38PM
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16:35:26 <k2pts> hi guys
16:35:27 <talli> hey k2pts
16:35:30 <k2pts> hey talli
17:07:36 <davb> hi
17:07:42 <talli> yo davb
17:07:46 <talli> how was your eve?
17:09:59 <davb> not bad. pretty uneventful.
17:10:25 <davb> brb
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20:07:24 <talilee> hey guys
20:07:51 <talilee> anyone know how i can become big enough to get ripped mercilessly on slashdot and f**ckedcompany?
20:08:57 <markd2> just emulate rolf
20:09:09 <docwolf> hehe
20:28:51 <talilee> rolf isn't megalomaniacal enough. 
20:31:39 <markd2> yet
20:32:00 <talilee> touche
20:32:06 <markd2> after docwolf takes that VC money, rolf will take over in a stunning coup d'etats
20:32:25 <talilee> followed by a triple lutz salcow
20:32:37 <markd2> don't mention cows around him
20:32:44 <markd2> don't want him to get too excited
20:32:58 <talilee> whoops. forgot - the pi day fiasco, right?
20:34:17 <markd2> at least one of them
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22:11:57 <davb> High School Computing: The Inside Story
22:11:59 <davb> argh
22:12:04 <davb> http://www.inf-gr.htw-zittau.de/~wagenkn/Natasha_Chen.html
22:12:05 <chump> B: http://www.inf-gr.htw-zittau.de/~wagenkn/Natasha_Chen.html from davb
22:12:13 <davb> B:|High School Computing: The Inside Story
22:12:13 <chump> titled item B
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22:41:49 <k2pts> hi guys
22:46:07 <markd2> hello
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22:49:24 <k2pts> hey markd. how's it going?
22:49:47 <k2pts> do you know if there were more articles about arsdigita. I know about Eve's and Lars so far...
22:51:27 <markd2> those are the only ones I'm aware of so far
22:51:39 <k2pts> ok markd thanks
22:51:50 <markd2> if you find any others, I'd love to read 'em :-)
22:52:31 <k2pts> same here
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23:07:37 <talli> markd2, are you an aD voyeur? don't you have anything to publish about your inside take on the trials an tribulations of a late 20th century corporation?
23:08:04 <docwolf> stirring up trouble again, talli?
23:08:22 <talli> uh no
23:08:34 <talli> (pumpinthepuppy = docwolf)
23:08:39 <talli> pass it on
23:08:42 <talli> just kidding!!!
23:09:41 <docwolf> haha
23:10:06 <markd2> heh
23:10:18 <markd2> nothing really I can publish
23:10:24 <talli> that didn't stop eve
23:10:25 <markd2> since I was remote through all of it
23:10:32 <docwolf> I give 2:1 odds that another lawsuit is filed
23:10:42 <markd2> 400 quatloos on the newcomers 
23:10:51 <docwolf> 600
23:11:15 <talli> uh, are you guys trekkies?
23:11:19 <talli> what is a quatloo?
23:11:21 <docwolf> hehe
23:11:28 <markd2> youngun's these days
23:11:29 <docwolf> i put 600 on the guy with the toupee and the girdle
23:11:44 <markd2> I'd put 600 on that chick in the silver bikini
23:11:45 <talli> hey! you promised not to tell!
23:11:59 <docwolf> rolf and i have a picture of shatner hanging up... for inspiration
23:12:04 <docwolf> he looks like he must weigh 300 lbs.
23:12:28 <talli> he must have swallowed too much priceline stock
23:12:46 <docwolf> we keep the picture up to remind ourselves what we may become if we keep sitting here, reading about aD.
23:12:55 <talli> haha