IRC log of openacs on 2002-02-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:07:03 [jim]
hmm, I'm stuck already. The docs say there should be a func content_item.get_root_folder()
00:08:20 [jim]
so that should map to content_item__get_root_folder()?
00:08:43 [jim]
tried that... but no go
00:09:04 [markd2]
I get frightened every time I dip into the content suppository
00:09:07 [markd2]
er, repository
00:09:55 [jim]
well, this is post-frightened, and pre-flamethrower :)
00:10:49 [jim]
since I'm stuck on the very first step, does that mean cr has changed radically from its docs?
00:11:05 [markd2]
I don't know
00:11:29 [markd2]
even in the aD days, there was a big disconnect between the docs (e.g. too high of a level) and actually using it (too low of a level)
00:11:31 [jim]
yeah, OK, I worded that inappropriately :)
00:12:20 [jim]
does openacs use ad_proc?
00:12:25 [Psychephylax]
Psychephylax has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:12:44 [jim]
or did they make their own oa_proc or soemthign?
00:12:55 [markd2]
ad_proc I belive so
00:13:02 [markd2]
they kept the 'ad_' nomenclature
00:13:03 [jim]
ok...
00:13:18 [markd2]
kinda like aolclerver kept the 'ns_' thingie
00:17:27 [jim]
ok, yes, I found the proc
00:20:05 [jim]
sheesh :) the api browser needs fixing :)
00:20:12 [jim]
(or so it seems)
00:24:21 [jim]
aha! the root folder id is -100 :)
00:24:56 [jim]
so now, I want a list of things whose parent id is -100
00:27:51 [jim]
I found one folder :)
00:30:51 [jim]
* jim sees the items in that folder :)
00:33:18 [jim]
* jim looks at all the revisions for a single content item... tries to find the live one...
00:38:51 [jim]
found it! in cr_items table
00:48:58 [Psychephylax]
Psychephylax (nblyumbe@ool-18bd7775.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #openacs
00:49:07 [Psychephylax]
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!
00:49:13 [markd2]
?
00:49:44 [Psychephylax]
7:49PM up 6 mins, 1 user, load averages: 0.02, 0.07, 0.02
00:49:45 [Psychephylax]
:(
00:49:50 [Psychephylax]
:'(
00:50:04 [Psychephylax]
It was a day and a half short of 200
00:50:48 [Psychephylax]
totally sucks
00:50:58 [markd2]
:-(
00:51:09 [Psychephylax]
:(
00:51:51 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax wanders off to cry into his pillow
01:00:49 [jim]
* jim created a content folder ;)
01:01:46 [shagster]
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01:02:00 [markd2]
* markd2 is simultaneously happy and sad
01:04:27 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax is just sad
01:04:57 [markd2]
* markd2 is sleepy
01:05:01 [markd2]
catch folks l8r
01:05:07 [markd2]
markd2 has quit ("wheeeee")
01:08:54 [Psychephylax]
me too
01:08:55 [Psychephylax]
Psychephylax has quit ("Read error: 2.71828182846 (Excessive e)")
02:34:17 [davb]
hi. jim I'll be around if you are still fooling around with the CR :)
02:59:36 [mindst0rm]
mindst0rm (~mindstorm@ma-ppp139.mva.net) has joined #openacs
03:02:35 [mindst0rm]
I heard about aD's demise. What does this mean for OpenACS and aD ACS?
03:09:14 [davb]
Nothing for OpenACS. ad ACS java, it is unknown.
03:11:09 [mindst0rm]
I was hoping for a 5.0 release of acs-java. Would of been nice to run acs-java with postgres.
03:11:40 [davb]
that is highly unlikely at this point.
03:11:48 [davb]
i doubt very much work was done in that direction.
03:12:01 [davb]
Of course the code that was released is still free.
03:15:00 [mindst0rm]
would it be possible for a crack team to work on it and release a derivative version?
03:16:19 [jim]
still foolin with it :)
03:16:51 [mindst0rm]
How hard would it be port 4.6 to work with postgres or sapdb?
03:17:01 [jim]
I made a folder, an item in the folder, a coupla revisions for the item...
03:17:38 [jim]
is 4.6 available under GPL?
03:17:58 [davb]
adpl
03:18:14 [jim]
redhat has ad now, yes?
03:18:19 [davb]
which mostly says if you make a derivative, it can't be called arsdigita anything.
03:18:22 [davb]
jim: yes.
03:18:42 [davb]
mindst0rm: no idea. we all work with openacs here :)
03:18:46 [jim]
if you make a derivative, can you call it not-ad and GPL it? :)
03:18:54 [davb]
jim: I think not.
03:19:16 [davb]
hopefully either redhat will continue development, or release it into the wild.
03:20:20 [jim]
ok, wrt most oacs4 pkgs, I'm finding that at least the drop scripts are bad
03:20:40 [jim]
never tried to remove etp tho
03:20:48 [mindst0rm]
aD ACS is based upon a Mozilla-like license. I guess my company could just work on it internally and not release source. But we'd like to release source.
03:21:49 [jim]
the second you deploy it out-of-house, you necessarily release soem source
03:22:29 [jim]
or is that actually true, given it's not tcl anymore?
03:23:01 [mindst0rm]
The idea was to extend it for our internal use and just post a tarball for developers to play with.
03:24:49 [jim]
davb: ok, I have an item with revisions...
03:25:17 [davb]
jim: alright.
03:25:18 [jim]
now to set one of the revisions live, and figure out how to get the content out of it
03:25:37 [davb]
I think theres a content_item__set_live_revision
03:26:35 [davb]
to get the content, there might be a pl/pgsql proc, or you can also do content_item__get_live_revision an dthen grab the content from the content_revisions table.
03:26:37 [mindst0rm]
Right now I have an installation of OpenACS 3.2 and there really isn't a CMS component to it. Version 4 does. How usable and stable is 4.0 at this point?
03:27:02 [davb]
beware the CMS. it needs alot of work.
03:27:17 [jim]
no, not even playing with -that-
03:27:20 [mindst0rm]
crap! that's what I need the most.
03:27:24 [davb]
4.0 is very stable and usable, except for the drop scripts.
03:27:27 [mindst0rm]
*sigh*
03:27:50 [davb]
mindst0rm: it was never finished. it does do alot, but the UI needs the most work.
03:28:10 [mindst0rm]
what kind of UI owrk?
03:28:46 [mindst0rm]
how much TCL coding is avalible?
03:29:13 [jim]
don't understand question
03:29:23 [davb]
there are thousands of lines of code. Basically it is unusable by anyone who does not understand the underlying data model.
03:29:32 [davb]
its an interface for enginners not content writers.
03:29:58 [mindst0rm]
what does the CMS need so far as UI work? I'm trying to see where I can contribute.
03:30:14 [jim]
but there are facilities to allow separation between content writers and engineers
03:30:49 [davb]
I would say set it up and look.
03:31:11 [mindst0rm]
Is it the logic code that's needed? Or the widgets and HTML?
03:31:15 [davb]
jim: yes, but it is super complex, allowing every possible option at every point. its totally overwhelming :)
03:31:28 [davb]
mindstorm, I think all the widgets are there.
03:31:35 [jim]
the UI is probably all there, if it's a direct port... my guess is the sql is the primary area of concern
03:32:00 [mindst0rm]
hmmm.... What's broken?
03:32:11 [davb]
really, I haven't looked at it in months. I am focusing on building on top of the edit-this-page package which is another packge on top of the content repository.
03:32:59 [davb]
mindstorm, there is a bboard about CMS over at openacs.org. and alot of threads in the other bboards also. that is probaly your best bet besides actually installing it.
03:33:17 [mindst0rm]
right. Thanks.
03:33:31 [jim]
are there any pkgs in either adacs 4 or oacs 4 which act as front ends for cvs?
03:33:59 [mindst0rm]
Would there ever be interest for a java version of OpenACS/
03:34:21 [davb]
jim: I think there is a version-control pacakge.
03:34:29 [davb]
mindst0rm: not really.
03:34:32 [jim]
and that uses cvs? cool
03:34:42 [mindst0rm]
thanks again.
03:34:48 [davb]
the community is built around the Tcl version. we don't have resources to do both :)
03:35:07 [davb]
mindst0rm: but you might be able to build support for working on the Java version.
03:35:30 [davb]
just most of the current openacs memebers are not interested.
03:35:48 [jim]
there is a acs-java v4 which uses oracle...
03:36:08 [jim]
you could try to port that to the oacs4 data model on postgres
03:36:24 [davb]
ok, where did these guys hide the HTTP transport code that works on AOLserver...
03:36:37 [jim]
ns_sock?
03:37:02 [jim]
that's the module that actually listens to the port
03:37:06 [davb]
no. this is TclSOAP adapted for AOLserver. It originally used the http tcl package.
03:37:16 [davb]
but I see no reason to add http code to aolserver :)
03:37:33 [mindst0rm]
hmmm... I have a coder on staff that may be interested in working on the java stuff. I'll RTFM and see if a postgres port can be done easily.
03:37:36 [jim]
that's built into aolserver
03:38:20 [jim]
mindst0rm: one of the first questions you'd be asking, is if postgres can store java procs
03:39:18 [davb]
jim: yes, but NSSoap does not appear to be taking advantage of this fact :)
03:39:32 [mindst0rm]
java procs?
03:39:36 [jim]
yes
03:39:59 [mindst0rm]
oh, java procedures?
03:40:00 [jim]
acs-java stores java procs in the database
03:40:14 [mindst0rm]
* mindst0rm a PM not a coder.
03:48:11 [mindst0rm]
Someone has to keep the project on track :-)
03:51:13 [talli]
mindst0rm: some guy on the aD bboards posted that he was working on porting ACS Java to PG
03:51:27 [jim]
ok, well, I looked for the ability having been accomplished by pg.org, and didn't find it... (doesn't mean impossible... I guess aD did it in 4.6; dunno for sure...)
03:51:45 [talli]
you may be able to help him, and get many of the ex-aD guys to work on it
03:51:53 [talli]
but not wanting to spread FUD, ACS Java sucks
03:52:15 [talli]
it simply does not work, and this is from many of the best aD coders
03:52:15 [jim]
acs java doesn't have a lot of pkgs
03:52:26 [jim]
not much more than cr
03:52:27 [talli]
the aD CMS leaks memory horribly
03:52:32 [talli]
i have heard nothing good about it
03:53:11 [jim]
java leaks memory horribly, by design... to make it easier than c++ :)
03:53:44 [jim]
until the gc comes around and collects stuff
03:53:59 [talli]
also, aD drove so much of the community away from itself that there is no way in hell you'll get any of the best OACS programmers to touch ACS Java, even if they would have been interested in using Java in a web toolkit
03:54:17 [mindst0rm]
I was lured in by the workflow features and the personal workspace. I'm asuming that the java code can be tightened up.
03:54:21 [talli]
jim: that's nice. how much does it slow the app down? :)
03:54:43 [jim]
probably quite a bit
03:54:54 [jim]
depending on the app you put it to
03:55:00 [talli]
there is one consistent piece of aD code:
03:55:03 [talli]
the data model is strong, the code is a horrible mess
03:55:27 [mindst0rm]
I'm well aware of the post philg fallout. What was Graylock Partners thinking?!
03:55:30 [talli]
that's why it's taking the OACS community so long to release a final version. we're working through all aD's bugs
03:56:28 [talli]
since ACS Java requires an order of magnitude or two of complexity (persistence layer, OO code, Java, etc), you'll need a lot more than a single programmer on staff to clean the stuff up
03:57:08 [talli]
aD put their best coder on workflow for ACS 4 Tcl, i don't even know who they used for ACS java workflow
03:57:19 [jim]
it looks like it was always their intent to put customer projects ahead of improving the toolkit... supposedly bugfixes would make their way back to the toolkit, but looking at the code now, seems that didn't happen too often :)
03:57:24 [talli]
but since it wasn't lars, it's probably not as strong
03:57:54 [jim]
there were many really talented people in Berkeley...
03:58:02 [talli]
good point jim. the biggest problem in that model though, was that they couldn't get any customers to use it
03:58:05 [jim]
I remember this russian guy, really good
03:58:13 [mindst0rm]
exacly, jim. They were focusing on billable time.
03:58:30 [davb]
yeah. openacs.org gets linked from the cms-list
03:58:45 [davb]
unfortunately in reference to aD.
03:59:05 [mindst0rm]
sorry about bugging you guys.
03:59:13 [jim]
np
03:59:18 [davb]
np. we are pretty friendly :)
03:59:20 [jim]
bottom line:
03:59:25 [talli]
no prob mindst0rm
03:59:25 [talli]
just come over and use the OACS :)
03:59:34 [jim]
it's going to take work to get the tool kit going
03:59:45 [jim]
to get it REALLY stable
03:59:51 [talli]
mindst0rm, again, i don't mean to spread FUD
04:00:12 [talli]
but jim's right. there is way too much work to get ACS Java into production stable code
04:00:16 [mindst0rm]
I do have an installation running. The next step is porting our templates to ADP.
04:00:41 [docwolf]
hey talli, are you spreading FUD about the masterstroke called ACS Java? for shame.
04:01:26 [docwolf]
don't you know it's the answer to mankind's problems? sheesh,
04:01:30 [jim]
mindst0rm: you should consider having a tcl version and a java version
04:01:35 [talli]
that, and crapping all over anyone that would even THINK of using python for mission critical apps
04:01:52 [docwolf]
ahem. :-)
04:01:57 [mindst0rm]
I gave up on zope.
04:02:03 [talli]
haha
04:02:05 [docwolf]
zope is a heap
04:02:06 [talli]
who hasn't?
04:02:12 [docwolf]
webware is pretty good.
04:02:16 [docwolf]
it's working out OK for us so far.
04:03:08 [talli]
mindst0rm: another thing to consider is that in order to get ACS Java to work, you'll need at least a few hardcore web Java freaks to get obsessed with making the system run
04:03:35 [mindst0rm]
I shouldn't make fun. I hacked our current internal CMS with PHP and mySQL.
04:03:56 [docwolf]
i don't know of any production ACS java site.. that should speak volumes about the product.
04:04:04 [talli]
that might end up working out, but the community that i saw build around ACS Java were mainly developers from India who were just learning english, let alone java apps
04:04:21 [talli]
OACS, on the other hand, has Don Baccus. the webware community seems to be decent as well.
04:04:37 [docwolf]
they started working on java over 2 years ago.. and no decent results. sad.
04:04:47 [docwolf]
webware could use a total pain in the ass like baccus.
04:04:51 [docwolf]
right now, we're settling for rolf.
04:04:55 [talli]
but, docwolf, eison has a nice vette. that should be enough
04:05:10 [talli]
i mean, in the success category
04:05:21 [docwolf]
heh
04:05:27 [docwolf]
i wonder what eison is going to do next
04:05:37 [talli]
ever see cannonball run?
04:06:31 [docwolf]
yeah..
04:06:45 [docwolf]
he's going to be the dom delouise character?
04:06:45 [mindst0rm]
I have one hardcore java coder, I'll see if we can get kostas and his buds interested. Kostas wrote some stuff for Enhydra.
04:07:26 [jim]
ok, now what's the deal behind content in the cr? I wanna be able to get it into the cr and out... is there a common method to do so? when you get content out, can you just say "stream the content thru this socket/pipe" so you can return a page with that content?
04:07:40 [jim]
not sure how to word that question
04:08:44 [davb]
jim: not quite.
04:08:54 [davb]
you need to stuff it into a template.
04:10:19 [davb]
packages usually have a proc or two to handle formatting the content and serving it up.
04:10:31 [davb]
also you need to check permissions etc...
04:10:56 [mindst0rm]
Thanks for the help.
04:11:09 [davb]
a file in the CR doesn't have a URL. so somewhere a package needs to map a URL to a the content in the CR
04:11:14 [mindst0rm]
mindst0rm has left #openacs
04:11:17 [davb]
(am I makig any sense? :)
04:11:39 [jim]
umm, sec...
04:12:26 [jim]
so you'd have a .adp for the template?
04:13:15 [jim]
the cr's revisions are files?
04:13:21 [davb]
jim, maybe :)
04:13:34 [jim]
do I have to know that behind the line?
04:13:47 [jim]
whether yes or no?
04:13:49 [davb]
not if you use the CR's APIs
04:14:01 [davb]
it knows so you don't have to.
04:14:53 [jim]
on the app side of that api, what data structure has the content upon return?
04:15:08 [davb]
not sure. I will have to look :)
04:15:40 [jim]
ok, meetoo... (but part of my api browser appears to be broke...)
04:18:16 [davb]
which part? yes some of it is
04:18:53 [jim]
the plpgsql browser
04:18:54 [davb]
jim: did you read Dan W's guide to the new CR at openacs.org/4 ?
04:19:09 [jim]
nope...
04:19:20 [davb]
ah. I think its probably linked from vinod's faq.
04:19:26 [jim]
right now I'm reading /doc/acs-content-repository/guide/publish.html
04:20:27 [davb]
jim: you can use the API browser, picka package, then pick SQL files. it goes to the oracle version, so you need to do URL surgery to get the postgresql versions :)
04:20:43 [jim]
gotcha
04:21:30 [jim]
I don't feel too smart these days... last time I did url surgery, my wisdom teeth disappeared :)
04:21:41 [davb]
ah, also the publish:: procs look like they might use the template you specified in the content_item
04:21:52 [davb]
don't say that, I have to lose mine soon :(
04:21:54 [davb]
:_
04:21:56 [davb]
:)
04:24:15 [jim]
take care, and make sure they make you a night guard
04:25:09 [davb]
thanks,
04:25:24 [davb]
actually I think I lied. I don't see anything to handle content serving.
04:25:33 [davb]
except maybe the publish procs.
04:25:49 [davb]
looks like its up to the package to decide how to spew it out.
04:26:09 [davb]
remember the CR was written to live behind the CMS.
04:26:35 [talli]
davb: in your opinion, is the CR worth it?
04:26:51 [jim]
so if the cr knows-so-I-don't-have-to, that means it can output anything in a common way?
04:26:54 [davb]
talli: worth what? I think it works.
04:27:04 [talli]
you think it's scalable?
04:27:08 [davb]
jim: i thought it did, but I am not sure :)
04:27:39 [davb]
talli: no clue, but I think yes. it doesnt do all that much. you can store the actualy content in a type specific table if you need to.
04:27:50 [talli]
all this talk about getting content out of the CR seems to be more complicated than it's worth
04:27:55 [talli]
but then again, i don't know anything
04:28:17 [davb]
talli: it makes search and keywords and building ETP alot easier :)
04:28:35 [talli]
ah, well then that shuts me up quickly
04:28:40 [jim]
it's just because we haven't found the easy way to do it...
04:28:45 [davb]
I will let you know about the scalable part. in the next few months.
04:29:04 [davb]
I will be totally pushing ETP to the limits of Luke's imagination :)
04:29:23 [talli]
killer!
04:29:27 [talli]
what's the project?
04:29:29 [jim]
I can do pretty much everything else... I can grab the root folder, "ls" it, if folders are inside, I can pick one and ls that
04:29:34 [davb]
top secret :)
04:29:41 [davb]
hopefully I can reveal soon.
04:29:41 [talli]
those are the best kinds
04:29:43 [talli]
big money?
04:29:52 [davb]
none yet :(
04:30:10 [davb]
with no experience or skills, I take what I can get :)
04:30:12 [jim]
make certain your employer has money
04:30:15 [talli]
good point
04:30:26 [talli]
but yes, do make sure you'll be making some cash out of this
04:30:33 [davb]
After the demo hopefully he gets the investors, if not I bail.
04:30:33 [talli]
browser CMS can be lotsa work
04:30:44 [davb]
jim: sounds CMS like :)
04:31:09 [davb]
there is useful code in there, but there is alot of everything in there.
04:31:21 [davb]
anyway, I will see you all later. good night
04:31:27 [jim]
nite
05:00:47 [jim]
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14:05:12 [davb]
http://www.javalobby.org/clr.html
14:05:13 [chump]
A: http://www.javalobby.org/clr.html from davb
14:05:23 [davb]
A:|One Runtime to Bind Them All
14:05:23 [chump]
titled item A
14:08:57 [davb]
http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/01/21/index2a.html
14:08:57 [chump]
B: http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/01/21/index2a.html from davb
14:09:04 [davb]
B:|Object Oriented Publishing
14:09:04 [chump]
titled item B
14:10:37 [davb]
http://www.truerwords.net/fullThread$msgNum=1641
14:10:37 [chump]
C: http://www.truerwords.net/fullThread$msgNum=1641 from davb
14:10:56 [davb]
C:| I am not sure why people are so worked up over this. Simple Cross Network Scripting
14:10:56 [chump]
titled item C
14:11:26 [davb]
C: all it is, is a little glue code around the XMLRPC calling code. NSSoap does the same thing. Any scripting language can do this.
14:11:26 [chump]
commented item C
15:13:10 [davb]
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15:39:48 [talilee]
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15:40:08 [talilee]
hey guys
17:01:23 [davb]
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17:01:44 [talilee]
yo davb
17:01:49 [talilee]
how are you this fine morn?
17:01:52 [davb]
howdy
17:02:05 [davb]
I am here :)
17:17:37 [docwolf]
we are trapped in the early 1980s
17:17:40 [docwolf]
and cannot escape
17:17:51 [talilee]
ah, boca
17:18:03 [docwolf]
rolf has inserted the mp3 disc from hell
17:18:09 [davb]
heh
17:18:09 [talilee]
the center of all things classy, is north western florida
17:18:17 [docwolf]
oh god...
17:18:32 [docwolf]
actually, i sort of like the deep south
17:18:52 [docwolf]
there's something about the quiet desolation
17:18:59 [talilee]
so do i. ever since i joined the klan, my perspective is totally different!
17:19:05 [docwolf]
haha
17:19:16 [docwolf]
there are some states where i will not travel
17:19:31 [talilee]
as a jew, or as a person who can read?
17:19:43 [docwolf]
like louisiana and mississippi
17:19:53 [docwolf]
but for the most part
17:20:05 [docwolf]
driving through georgia and tennessee is fun
17:20:29 [docwolf]
ain't nothing like a ryan's steak house on a saturday night
17:21:07 [talilee]
oh man.
17:21:29 [talilee]
that's like saying "ain't nothing like riding horseback through sleepy hollow on a dark stormy night"
17:21:40 [docwolf]
hehe
17:21:43 [docwolf]
i like sleepy hollow, too.
17:21:47 [docwolf]
i guess i can live anywhere.
17:22:21 [docwolf]
except boston, which i found repulsive.
17:23:43 [talilee]
boston can be ok, but it takes a long time to wade through all the frat boys and massholes to find cool people
17:24:00 [talilee]
and once you do that, it's still not worth sticking around
17:24:04 [docwolf]
i just felt uncomfortable there. surly people. awful weather. crumbling infrastructure. high prices.
17:25:18 [docwolf]
... and a real city, just a couple of hours south ;-)
17:28:43 [talilee]
MSN messenger truly, truly sucks
17:37:19 [davb]
http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/1090
17:37:19 [chump]
D: http://www.oreillynet.com/cs/weblog/view/wlg/1090 from davb
17:37:24 [davb]
D:|On Codecraft
17:37:24 [chump]
titled item D
18:00:44 [til]
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19:09:49 [talilee]
damn. missed neophytos
19:14:18 [davb]
yep
19:14:47 [talilee]
davb, did you ever apply to aDuni?
19:15:03 [davb]
no, I couldn'ttake off a year from life :)
19:15:11 [talilee]
:)
19:15:37 [talilee]
you know, i don't understand why the aDuni stuff doesn't sit on the OACS box
19:15:43 [davb]
I am going to attend empire state college which actully dispenses degress and lets you work independently.
19:15:52 [davb]
ack. 80 gigs of stuff.
19:15:59 [talilee]
there's nothing on it other than the OACs site
19:16:11 [davb]
Depends on if you can afford the bandwidth to send it back out.
19:16:11 [talilee]
sure, 80 gigs, but harddrive space is small
19:16:20 [talilee]
that's up to openforce
19:16:24 [davb]
right.
19:17:14 [talilee]
but it would be incredible pub for OACS
19:17:15 [davb]
maybe we can get MIT to adopt it back for open courseware.
19:17:25 [davb]
they have plenty of bandwidth etc..
19:17:29 [talilee]
true enough
19:17:52 [docwolf]
morpheus.
19:17:55 [talilee]
i would happily donate a server if it would be helpful, but i don't think that the issue is hardware. it's, as you say, bandwidth
19:17:55 [docwolf]
it's a job for morpheus.
19:18:28 [talilee]
docwolf, that's a good idea, but i still don't completely understand it
19:18:37 [talilee]
do you mean distribute the stuff among servers?
19:18:43 [talilee]
and then you split the bandwidth?
19:18:47 [docwolf]
or, among "clients", rather
19:18:48 [docwolf]
yeah
19:18:52 [talilee]
anyone know any of the aDuni guys anyway?
19:18:59 [talilee]
are they involved in the OACS community?
19:20:02 [davb]
I don't think so. adUNI runs on PHP
19:20:48 [davb]
they were not necessarily indoctrinated in the openacs ways at ad uni. philip only taught one class.
19:20:51 [talilee]
ugh. did those people learn ANYTHING???
19:21:52 [davb]
heh
19:21:53 [talilee]
docwolf, do you have a proposal for using morpheus?
19:22:09 [talilee]
or do we need to get a morpheus wiz?
19:22:13 [davb]
or perhaps a free protocol alternative
19:22:24 [talilee]
yeah, anything.
19:22:47 [talilee]
what are you guys voting on the namechange, btw?
19:22:56 [docwolf]
to use morpheus, all you need is to download a morpheus client
19:23:00 [docwolf]
and share a directory. that's it.
19:23:11 [docwolf]
the people who use it will need to have a DSL at least.
19:23:22 [docwolf]
the thing is, it will be too slow unless many people have it running.
19:23:52 [davb]
I haven't decided how to vote.
19:24:14 [davb]
I think with 100 or more people voting, it wil be very difficult to come up with a catchy one word name.
19:24:42 [talilee]
docwolf, is there a reaosn you advocate morpheus over gnutella?
19:25:15 [docwolf]
i've not found a gnutella client that works as well as morpheus.
19:25:21 [docwolf]
but i haven't really looked that hard :-)
19:25:23 [docwolf]
gnucleus is OK
19:25:48 [talilee]
does morpheus have linux clients?
19:25:56 [docwolf]
the thing about morpheus is that it's relentless. Like, i'll ask to download a file on tuesday... have it time out... then come back on friday and see that it managed to get the file
19:25:58 [talilee]
reason i ask is that i can donate an office server
19:26:22 [docwolf]
i don't know if there is a KaZaa client for linux
19:26:47 [docwolf]
http://www.kazaa.com/en/download.htm
19:26:47 [chump]
E: http://www.kazaa.com/en/download.htm from docwolf
19:27:04 [docwolf]
they may have a linux client
19:27:06 [talilee]
is kazaa the same as morphus?
19:27:15 [docwolf]
morpheus works on the kazaa network
19:27:22 [docwolf]
it's just a name of a particular client, AFAIK.
19:27:22 [talilee]
ah
19:27:39 [docwolf]
http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/2001/kazaalinux.html
19:27:39 [chump]
F: http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/2001/kazaalinux.html from docwolf
19:29:53 [docwolf]
i have obtain download speed of 150kb/s from morpheus, for a file that's well shared.
19:29:58 [docwolf]
(like 5+ hosts)
19:30:41 [talilee]
wow
19:34:29 [k2pts]
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19:34:43 [docwolf]
morpheus is like death to the RIAA
19:35:07 [docwolf]
because it takes care of one of the big problems with p2p -- the uploader doesn't need that much bandwidth, as long as a file is popular and well shared.
19:35:35 [davb]
ah.
19:35:39 [davb]
hello k2pts
19:35:47 [k2pts]
hi dave.
19:35:48 [talilee]
k2pts!!!
19:35:50 [k2pts]
hi talli
19:35:58 [k2pts]
have you voted yet?
19:35:59 [k2pts]
:)
19:36:00 [talilee]
i've been meaning to speak with you... sorry i've not tried harder ;(
19:36:05 [k2pts]
np
19:36:07 [k2pts]
been busy
19:37:15 [davb]
I have so far abstained. I can't decide.
19:37:32 [k2pts]
"no change" that's what I voted
19:38:30 [docwolf]
did you see don unload on ybos?
19:38:37 [talilee]
yeah, that was great
19:38:59 [talilee]
jbellis also said some right on stuff
19:42:07 [k2pts]
those guys never contributed *anything* and they wanted to play open/free-software gods at /.
19:43:41 [talilee]
i woulnd't be surprised if they rigged the moderation of peter's post so that it would get a high score
19:46:28 [davb]
don was _VERY_ nice the first time around.
19:46:41 [davb]
but obviously you just don't mess with him :)
19:46:52 [talilee]
whoa. did he post another one?
19:46:55 [k2pts]
true
19:46:58 [k2pts]
yeap
19:47:06 [talilee]
gotta see that...
19:48:30 [talilee]
hahaah!!!
19:48:41 [talilee]
i just read the first two words of his followup
19:48:46 [talilee]
long live donb!!!!
19:52:39 [docwolf]
he's out of control
19:53:27 [talilee]
he's not very subtle, but he's right. and he's honest.
19:53:47 [docwolf]
heh. true.
20:17:53 [jim]
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20:18:50 [jim]
re.
20:19:32 [davb]
hi jim
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20:26:19 [jim]
psql with libreadline is cool :)
20:36:15 [jim]
it saves what I did in a file (like bash does, in .bash_history) so I can use up and down arrow to browse :)
20:36:15 [jim]
all the queries I did yesterday to look at and build the folder and content item are right there :)
20:36:15 [talilee]
as luke said the other day, postgres is quite the open source projet
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20:44:37 [davb]
jim: have you tried sql-postgres mode in emacs?
20:46:31 [jim]
well, it switched to sql mode when I edited sql... not sure if my emacs has the elisp for sql-postgres
20:46:53 [davb]
I think its built in in 20. I just use M-x sql-postgres
20:47:16 [davb]
it runs psql but its a special mode. C-uparrow or M-uparrow does the same the the arrows in psql.
20:48:37 [jim]
hmm, ok...
20:49:35 [davb]
anyone just another option :)
20:49:40 [davb]
s/anyone/anyway
20:50:06 [davb]
actually I think you need to add a little thing for the readline to work in emacs...oops :)
20:50:24 [jim]
I'm looking to make pages edited by etp commentabl3
20:50:41 [davb]
did you see the sample code?
20:50:52 [davb]
its somewhere in the ETP directory. maybe www/doc/
20:51:01 [davb]
and also COOL!
20:51:15 [jim]
you mean you did it already? :)
20:51:31 [davb]
no, I think musea did.
20:51:42 [davb]
I haven't tried it yet .
20:51:57 [jim]
I'm in /packages/edit-this-page/www... no doc dir...
20:53:27 [jim]
you definitely use cr for this thing...
20:55:17 [jim]
ls ..
20:55:37 [davb]
etp is an excellent example of CR usage.
20:55:55 [davb]
I can't see my linux drive right now...
20:56:23 [jim]
see?
20:56:30 [jim]
oic
20:56:51 [davb]
ah
20:56:59 [davb]
etp-gc.tcl in /tcl
20:57:07 [davb]
I am in windows, dualboot
20:57:09 [davb]
I)
20:57:43 [davb]
argh, the code repository is busted...
20:57:50 [jim]
do you have an oacs up in win?
20:57:55 [davb]
no.
20:58:01 [davb]
hence the problem :)
20:58:17 [davb]
I just use windows for graphics and games.
20:58:58 [jim]
seems to be extra } at eof
20:59:10 [jim]
wait, no
21:00:17 [jim]
namespace eval etp {
21:02:38 [davb]
that looks ok
21:02:59 [jim]
yep, seems fine
21:05:09 [jim]
you should put the etp dox in the package soon :)
21:08:11 [davb]
:) good idea.
21:11:12 [jim]
also, (you must have done this...) what if I want a tree of pages, rather than a page plus one-deep list?
21:13:26 [davb]
jim: that can get messy. every subsection is another ETP instance.
21:13:44 [davb]
but if its not too many sections, its not bad.
21:14:03 [davb]
So make a subsection or two and if necessary subsection those too.
21:15:06 [davb]
jim: I get the impression you think I am more than an avid fan of the ETP package. It was programmed by the much more skilled than me luke@museatech.net :)
21:15:53 [jim]
oh, oops :) I thought you were the author :)
21:18:40 [davb]
heh, np
21:18:58 [davb]
I would be way to busy to hang around here if I was that good a programmer
21:19:01 [davb]
:)
21:19:46 [jim]
what's the default app again?
21:19:50 [jim]
article?
21:21:14 [davb]
deault-application, I think it might be an article.
21:21:29 [davb]
Its more a generic application.
21:25:16 [jim]
ok, would what I'm trying to do come under the category of "create new app"?
21:26:42 [jim]
Name of the ETP application to use (default, faq, news, or create your own with the etp::define_applicaton procedure)
21:27:13 [jim]
(from parameter settings for an atp instance)
21:27:21 [davb]
yeah. sounds like it. Rarely will you use the default. what it does is allow you to set only the parameters you need to change.
21:27:22 [jim]
err, etp :)
21:28:24 [jim]
coffee first, then check docs :)
22:00:24 [davb]
bbl - store
22:00:50 [docwolf]
everyone at arsdigita is delusional.
22:00:55 [docwolf]
sorry, just had to throw that in.
22:01:01 [docwolf]
http://eveander.com/arsdigita-history
22:01:01 [chump]
G: http://eveander.com/arsdigita-history from docwolf
22:11:27 [jim]
I spoke to Eve once on the phone
22:17:51 [jim]
could soemone point me at the etp docs again? :)
22:20:27 [talli]
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22:43:10 [jim]
talli: would you happen to know where the etp docs are hidden? (I know I asked this before, never did remember the answer)
22:44:32 [talli]
they're pretty much all at etp.museatech.net
22:44:49 [talli]
i don't think there's anything anywhere else
22:49:37 [jim]
thanks, maybe I can hammer that into my table this time :)
22:54:15 [talli]
np
22:54:32 [talli]
no need to vandalize, though
22:54:39 [talli]
there are bookmarks you know :)
22:54:49 [talli]
bbl
22:55:25 [jim]
yeah, forgot to use them
22:55:30 [jim]
seeya, thanks