IRC log of openacs on 2002-01-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:27:00 [davb]
davb (~chatzilla@alb-24-58-160-135.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
00:34:53 [talli]
talli has quit ("later later later")
00:39:07 [yon]
yon has left #openacs
00:49:00 [talli]
talli (talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs
01:19:41 [rzolf]
rzolf is now known as hammerpants
01:21:13 [docwolf]
yikes
01:27:20 [talli]
yikes what?
01:27:28 [talli]
hammerpants?
01:27:46 [talli]
you may have spent a little too much time near OakTown, hammerpants.
01:28:10 [docwolf]
can't touch the hammer pants. proper.
01:28:30 [talli]
word
01:28:54 [hammerpants]
hammerpants is now known as rzolf
01:30:41 [talli]
did you guys see the new packagign system called OpenPKG?
01:31:39 [rzolf]
no.
01:32:35 [talli]
(http://www.openpkg.org
01:32:52 [talli]
based on RPMs, it supposedly works on BSD, Solaris and linux
01:33:20 [vinod]
vinod has quit ("changing universes")
01:33:31 [rzolf]
interesting.
01:38:32 [rzolf]
that reminds me i need to figure out how to write packages for OSX
01:39:34 [talli]
using fink?
01:40:28 [rzolf]
i have no idea how to do it.
01:44:56 [talli]
check out fink. it's based on the debian system, but built for OSX
01:57:02 [rzolf]
rzolf has quit ("Leaving")
02:52:00 [markd2]
markd2 (~Snak@r-41.83.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
02:54:03 [davb]
* davb switches from his secret-identity "web-nerd" into GraphicsMan!
03:10:50 [vinod]
vinod (~vinod@207-172-255-154.s1170.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs
03:16:45 [davb]
hi vinod
03:17:33 [vinod]
hey davb
03:17:46 [markd2]
that's not davb
03:17:46 [markd2]
that's GraphicsMan!
03:17:56 [davb]
davb is now known as GraphicsMan
03:18:10 [GraphicsMan]
oops, thanks markd2!
03:18:56 [vinod]
GraphicsMan!
03:19:04 [vinod]
how could i have confused them?
03:19:10 [GraphicsMan]
heh
03:19:34 [GraphicsMan]
actully I can't take my glasses off when I transform. I need new contacts :)
03:19:58 [vinod]
haha
03:20:35 [vinod]
"have you noticed GraphicsMan's graphics have gotten fuzzy lately?"
03:21:02 [GraphicsMan]
I should work on a new OpenWhat? logo.
03:43:47 [markd2]
the new "OpenThis!!" logo
03:46:38 [vinod]
i envision a hand with the middle finger extended
03:46:39 [GraphicsMan]
heh
03:46:44 [GraphicsMan]
me too!
03:47:07 [vinod]
that would keep those damn newbies away ;-)
03:47:14 [talli]
what about an OpenFly logo?
03:47:30 [vinod]
* vinod checks his fly
03:47:39 [talli]
monkeys always look
03:47:51 [markd2]
eek! eek!
03:48:40 [vinod]
* vinod always gets burned by that one
03:48:51 [markd2]
hey, guess what?
03:48:58 [vinod]
what?
03:49:02 [markd2]
you guessed it!
03:49:10 [markd2]
(as the humor level sinks lower and lower)
03:49:14 [talli]
vinod, something's on your shirt
03:49:20 [vinod]
* vinod looks down
03:49:37 [talli]
* talli smacks vinod upside the head
03:49:41 [vinod]
you'd think as a younger brother, i would have learned my lesson by now...
03:50:17 [talli]
i still try to get people with the, "you know, if your hand is bigger than your face, you've got cancer"
03:50:25 [vinod]
lol
03:50:27 [talli]
that's a classic
03:52:10 [talli]
markd2: alt.religion.kibology has changed my life
03:52:16 [markd2]
sweet
03:52:40 [talli]
kibo certainly is a unique one
03:53:32 [vinod]
* vinod is about to do a fresh install of openacs to see if his docs are lies or not
03:54:39 [GraphicsMan]
lies! lies! its all lies!
03:54:45 [vinod]
LOL
03:55:03 [vinod]
i love it
03:55:13 [talli]
is there a mailing list for it?
03:55:14 [talli]
bboards?
03:55:19 [markd2]
LOL
03:55:45 [vinod]
GraphicsMan: you are a graphics genius
03:55:50 [markd2]
that rules
03:56:24 [markd2]
http://www.sixsixfive.com/297.html
03:56:24 [chump]
A: http://www.sixsixfive.com/297.html from markd2
03:56:32 [markd2]
A:| The Pennsylvania driving simulator
03:56:32 [chump]
titled item A
03:59:11 [GraphicsMan]
imagine what I could do if I applied a couple of filters :)
04:01:29 [talli]
i don't think censorship would help the cause at all
04:05:24 [GraphicsMan]
s/filters/effects
04:05:27 [GraphicsMan]
brb
04:05:52 [talli]
ohhh... effects.
04:06:28 [vinod]
these graphics designers have their own special lingo ;-)
04:07:40 [talli]
don't i know it. if he had just said, "it needs some whizbang wingwam", i don;t think i would have been so confuse
04:07:42 [talli]
confused
04:07:52 [vinod]
haha
04:10:27 [talli]
it's funny how MSN sponsors espn.com, but that site ALWAYS makes IE6 crash
04:10:52 [talli]
vinod: where are you watching the game this weekend?
04:11:21 [vinod]
probably at home, maybe at a bar
04:12:01 [talli]
where in boston do you live?
04:12:18 [vinod]
in dorchester - near south boston
04:13:23 [talli]
i must say, i truly hate the packers.
04:13:31 [vinod]
haha
04:13:41 [talli]
the only thing that does not make me totally pissed off about last week is that the niners were so bad the years before
04:13:41 [vinod]
don't hate us cuz we're beautiful
04:13:50 [talli]
the fact they made it that far was amazing in itself
04:13:59 [talli]
we never should have lost to the cowboys!
04:14:06 [vinod]
yeah - they had a great season
04:14:20 [vinod]
we should never have lost to the falcons and titans and vikings
04:14:23 [talli]
i don't hate the pack as much as i did when steve young was around (a few years ago)
04:14:32 [talli]
you lost to the vikes???
04:14:34 [talli]
for shame
04:14:40 [vinod]
yup - got killed
04:14:50 [talli]
nothing, however, compares to my hatred of the cowboys of the early nineties
04:14:54 [talli]
oooo.....
04:15:06 [talli]
was that the game that moss had three tds?
04:15:07 [vinod]
actually, i hated the cowboys then too.
04:15:13 [vinod]
we always lost to them
04:15:16 [talli]
ugh. how could you not?
04:15:24 [talli]
yeah, but you always lost to everyone. :)
04:15:27 [vinod]
remember, i used to be a semi-cowboys fan
04:15:33 [vinod]
i loved staubach and dorsett
04:15:33 [talli]
WHAT???
04:15:36 [talli]
oh man.
04:15:42 [vinod]
but as soon as they got rid of landry, it all ended
04:16:00 [talli]
true enough.
04:16:12 [vinod]
gb was lousy for a long time, but they were always fun to watch (almost)
04:16:15 [talli]
although, i do kinda like that the cowboys had their own team brothel.
04:16:33 [vinod]
wow - never heard about that
04:16:41 [talli]
i actually liked GB when they had the majik man.
04:16:52 [vinod]
yeah - he was fun to watch
04:16:57 [talli]
and the WR from stanford. crap... what was his name?
04:17:03 [vinod]
"after further review, the bears stll suck"
04:17:15 [vinod]
jeff query?
04:17:18 [talli]
no...
04:17:22 [talli]
the really good one.
04:17:26 [talli]
james...
04:17:29 [vinod]
lofton?
04:17:34 [talli]
yes!
04:17:38 [vinod]
he was awesome
04:17:50 [vinod]
until he sexually assaulted someone and got kicked outta town
04:17:53 [talli]
what?
04:18:00 [talli]
is that what happened? is that why he left?
04:18:02 [talli]
whoops
04:18:05 [talli]
small place to do that.
04:18:08 [talli]
just ask chmura
04:18:13 [vinod]
yeah.. they don't tolerate that stuff
04:18:16 [vinod]
exactly
04:18:31 [vinod]
remember lynn dickey?
04:18:39 [talli]
before my time...
04:18:41 [talli]
what about him?
04:18:44 [vinod]
he could throw the ball like marino.
04:18:49 [markd2]
markd2 has quit ("Bork")
04:18:57 [vinod]
we lost to the redskins 48-47 on monday night once
04:19:03 [vinod]
what a game!
04:19:03 [talli]
whoa
04:19:06 [talli]
must have been
04:19:18 [talli]
i knew a guy that grew up in GB who told me a funny story
04:19:45 [talli]
he said he and his friend were at a bar one night when sterling sharpe and some white guy came in and sat next to them
04:20:00 [talli]
at some point, sterling got up and went to the bathroom.
04:20:29 [talli]
so they leaned over and said, "hey, is that sterling sharpe?" (of course, how many black guys are in GB that aren't on the team?)
04:20:38 [talli]
the white guy goes, "yeah, that's him."
04:20:45 [talli]
so they ask, "who are you?"
04:20:59 [talli]
and he says, "i'm brett favre. i'm the new back-up QB"
04:21:05 [vinod]
haha
04:21:08 [talli]
and they were like, "oh, that's nice. never heard of you."
04:21:15 [vinod]
that's awesome
04:21:34 [talli]
later on, after sterling comes back, favre gets up and oges to the bathroom
04:21:51 [talli]
so they lean over to sterling and go, "hey sterling, who's that new guy"
04:22:02 [talli]
and sterling goes, "why, what did he tell you?"
04:22:17 [talli]
and they say, "well, he said that he's new backup QB."
04:22:35 [talli]
and sterling replied, "he said what???!!! that lying sack of ....!!!!"
04:23:20 [talli]
so they had a chance to get to know favre before he got major, but alas... they got tricked
04:23:50 [vinod]
wait, so it wasn't favre?
04:24:00 [talli]
no it was favre.
04:24:06 [talli]
sterling was fucking with em
04:24:08 [talli]
wait.
04:24:14 [talli]
i think i screwed up the story. :(
04:24:18 [vinod]
lol
04:24:26 [vinod]
i was getting confused :-)
04:24:32 [talli]
i think what happened was this...
04:24:40 [talli]
favre was the first one to go to the bathroom
04:24:54 [talli]
and they leaned over and asked sterling who was the new guy
04:25:11 [talli]
and sterling said, "ah, he's nobody. but he likes to say he's the new backup QB"
04:25:21 [vinod]
ahhhh
04:25:27 [talli]
and then when sterling left, they started talking and they didn't care that he was the new QB
04:25:37 [talli]
whoops. i really f**ked that story up
04:25:39 [talli]
sorry
04:25:47 [talli]
anyway, it was funny when i heard it
04:25:47 [vinod]
haha - np
04:25:55 [talli]
oh... and the packers still suck
04:26:08 [vinod]
i sense an inner admiration ;-)
04:28:23 [talli]
no, that's the vomit journeying up my esophagus
04:29:14 [vinod]
i love your descriptiveness
04:29:40 [GraphicsMan]
heh
04:32:15 [talli]
ok guys, have a good eve
04:32:17 [talli]
talk to you tomorrow
04:32:22 [talli]
talli has quit ("later later later")
04:34:42 [GraphicsMan]
darn. I "improved" the logo a little.
04:34:50 [GraphicsMan]
now talli missed it.
04:35:50 [vinod]
schweeeet!
04:37:05 [GraphicsMan]
I tried adding fire in the background, but it wasn;t working.
04:37:21 [GraphicsMan]
Maybe I'll post it to the new name thread as a sense of humour test.
04:37:33 [vinod]
haha
04:38:34 [GraphicsMan]
but I think there may be too many new people who would not "get it"
04:38:46 [GraphicsMan]
of course maybe they are the ones I should "give" it too :)
04:39:05 [vinod]
yeah
04:39:20 [vinod]
or if people complain, say that rzolf posted under your name ;-)
04:40:56 [GraphicsMan]
heh
04:41:26 [GraphicsMan]
maybe I'll do a little more survey here first.
04:42:08 [GraphicsMan]
I need to write a little program to test every domain name Openfoo against a disctionary to see whats left.
04:42:24 [vinod]
haha
04:49:59 [GraphicsMan]
oops
04:50:08 [GraphicsMan]
chump can't handle <> in the title
04:50:30 [GraphicsMan]
its not turning them into XML entities
04:50:54 [GraphicsMan]
GraphicsMan has changed the topic to: OpenACS: Free Web Toolkit http://openacs.org
05:10:17 [talli]
talli (talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs
05:10:29 [talli]
an interesting view point: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2002/01/10deathstar.html
05:12:49 [vinod]
here's the problem that i have with his theory
05:13:11 [vinod]
how the hell do people find the time to analyze shit like this?
05:13:20 [vinod]
other than that, it's pretty cogent
05:14:21 [GraphicsMan]
* GraphicsMan works on the top secret project...
05:24:37 [djg]
djg (~dirk@pD9E10D01.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #openacs
05:25:28 [GraphicsMan]
oh man, its 5:26 already :)
05:25:34 [GraphicsMan]
gotta get this clock fixed
05:35:53 [talli]
vinod: add up all the time that you might spend masturbating, having sex or thinking about sex, and just THINK about what you could do with it!
05:36:13 [talli]
all that energy, all that time... man. serious world peace could be had.
05:36:36 [talli]
or, you could spend too much time thinking about the plausability of space sanitation schemes
05:37:51 [GraphicsMan]
heh
05:39:10 [GraphicsMan]
adventures of garphicsman:
05:39:42 [talli]
GraphicsMan: i fear you may be working too hard
05:39:47 [GraphicsMan]
client with no money: I want you to design something. Do what you think is right, you are the expert
05:39:52 [GraphicsMan]
gm: ok
05:40:09 [GraphicsMan]
c: this is not what I had in mind, you are wrong. do this instead
05:40:15 [GraphicsMan]
gm: ok here are the changes
05:40:39 [GraphicsMan]
c: no this is wrong. you didn't do what I asked. use your judgement
05:40:41 [GraphicsMan]
etc...
05:40:51 [GraphicsMan]
good thing I am not busy.
05:41:22 [GraphicsMan]
substitute design for program as necessary,
05:42:39 [GraphicsMan]
lather....rinse...repeat...
05:43:47 [talli]
ah, no, you have slept plenty. it is only that your nemesis... the client
05:44:07 [talli]
GraphicsMan: my solution has always been to tell the client that he or she is an asshole when they do something like that
05:44:20 [talli]
of course, that has... undesirable effects
05:44:22 [GraphicsMan]
heh...
05:44:27 [talli]
but its quite refreshing
05:44:48 [talli]
how much work are you giving this guy for no money?
05:45:01 [GraphicsMan]
not much
05:45:07 [talli]
btw, luke and i were thinking about the webdav thing and we think we have a solution
05:45:17 [talli]
good. don't waste yourself.
05:45:23 [GraphicsMan]
its all graphic design, and he actually hasn't received any work, just looked at it :)
05:45:32 [GraphicsMan]
talli: excellent!
05:46:28 [talli]
the solution is to basically use apache as the web server and aolserver as the "app server". pretty straightforward, really :)
05:46:44 [GraphicsMan]
aha. I though that was a plan already,
05:46:47 [talli]
it would be really nice if the fastcgi stuff was done, but it doesn't look like it will be coming anytime soon
05:46:59 [GraphicsMan]
the trick is gettng the webdav stuff into the database...
05:47:03 [talli]
yes, that was a plan
05:47:17 [GraphicsMan]
I think webdave could be implemented pretty easily as filters in AOLserver.
05:47:19 [talli]
well, i'm not sure it's totally critical to get it into the database
05:47:31 [talli]
how do you mean?
05:47:35 [GraphicsMan]
s/webdavE/webdav :)
05:47:57 [GraphicsMan]
Webdav is just a set of HTTP headers. so you need to catch the webdav headers and process them accordinly.
05:48:19 [GraphicsMan]
Ah. depends on what you are doing.
05:48:48 [GraphicsMan]
you can always use static pages to enable search and templating.
05:49:28 [talli]
yes, i think that we would mostly be doing static pages
05:49:41 [talli]
but there is serious advantage to having full webdav support
05:49:50 [GraphicsMan]
Yes. definitely
05:50:31 [GraphicsMan]
Will the writers be using say Word and uploading that, which is then processed ont he server? or are they writing in HTML?
05:50:32 [talli]
but webdav in apache is quite mature
05:50:43 [talli]
probably an app like dreamweaver
05:50:56 [GraphicsMan]
cool. you could always run apache behind AOLserver....
05:51:14 [GraphicsMan]
instead of in front. so it gets the files into the filesystem which AOLserver then processes.
05:51:47 [GraphicsMan]
What exacrtly are you using AOLserver for in this process? :)
05:52:07 [talli]
aolserver would generate the dynamic pages
05:52:28 [talli]
the other advantage of apache, from what luke mentioned, is its powerful cacheing features
05:52:50 [talli]
for very heavily trafficed sites, you can run apache in front to cache pages that are generated by aolserver
05:53:03 [GraphicsMan]
then you probably do want to use AOLserver templating so they are conistent. I can't imagine maintaining an ADP template along with a dreamweaver template set.
05:53:19 [GraphicsMan]
talli: yes, or squid or some other proxy server type of thing.
05:53:26 [GraphicsMan]
AOLserver can cache its own pages though.
05:53:51 [GraphicsMan]
Also it has more knowledge of which pages should be cachable I think. :)
05:54:04 [hazmat]
hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #openacs
05:54:04 [talli]
well, for CMS purposes, we're not really interested in sticking things in the DB. although from what i gather it's reasonably possible to do so wiwth webdav
05:54:05 [GraphicsMan]
but it really depends on exactly what you application is.
05:54:12 [GraphicsMan]
?
05:54:20 [GraphicsMan]
very interesting. anti-ETP?
05:54:23 [GraphicsMan]
:)
05:54:24 [talli]
i mean, subversion uses BerkeleyDB
05:54:40 [talli]
yes, veyr much anti-ETP now. at least luke is increasingly so
05:54:47 [hazmat]
zope uses the zodb (webdav compliant as well ;)
05:54:52 [GraphicsMan]
heh
05:55:00 [GraphicsMan]
very interesting.
05:55:11 [GraphicsMan]
ETP is not doing it for your projects?
05:55:12 [talli]
the amount of time it takes to build features into ETP that exist in usual CMS desktop apps is really quite prohibitive
05:55:24 [hazmat]
why is that?
05:55:26 [GraphicsMan]
CMS desktop apps?
05:55:44 [talli]
like dreamweaver, with GUI WYSYWIG features
05:55:54 [talli]
spolsky really kinda got it right
05:55:57 [GraphicsMan]
Dreamweaver is a crappy writing application.
05:56:04 [talli]
it's just easier with a desktop app
05:56:10 [GraphicsMan]
for a static site yes.
05:56:26 [GraphicsMan]
A desktop app is best for writing.
05:56:56 [talli]
if webdav is an HTTP protocal, why would it be so much different from ETP putting the content you write in the browser into the DB?
05:57:01 [GraphicsMan]
I am leaning towards some sort of XMLRPC/SOAP interface to ETP or whatever CMS like application is on the server.
05:57:06 [talli]
that uses HTTP as well, right?
05:57:19 [hazmat]
but not so great to do concurrency with a desktop app
05:57:55 [hazmat]
the thing is people want to use their normal desktop apps for writing content... not the cms app for it.
05:58:05 [GraphicsMan]
talli: webdav is a standardized protocol to handlle versioning etc...
05:58:23 [GraphicsMan]
hazmat: sure. word is programmable (VB ick, but it will work)
05:58:35 [GraphicsMan]
GraphicsMan is now known as davb
05:58:37 [talli]
ok. so it might be easier to do it with XMLRPC or SOAP? that's just as fine by me...
05:58:49 [davb]
easier? maybe. different, yes :)
05:58:54 [hazmat]
GraphicsMan: any com client can script word...
05:59:07 [davb]
hazmat: ah cool,. say Python?
05:59:12 [davb]
:)
05:59:31 [hazmat]
yes, i've scripted excel to a tcl gui for a client via python ;)
05:59:33 [davb]
I am all for everything EXCEPT openacs being written in a non-Tcl language :)
05:59:46 [davb]
excellent.
06:00:20 [talli]
davb: i thought you wanted to see some python in OACS?
06:00:44 [davb]
It would be cool, but I don't know if that will really happen :)
06:00:52 [hazmat]
* hazmat feels like he missed an essential part of this conversation.
06:02:26 [talli]
oh, i agree
06:02:29 [talli]
it would be hell
06:02:40 [hazmat]
much less time than that...
06:03:06 [hazmat]
the whole acs4 project was written in less time than that.
06:03:24 [hazmat]
it would take 1 person 3 months if.
06:03:47 [talli]
not to mention that there would have to be a thread on teh bboards that would overload the server
06:04:05 [hazmat]
getting the community to accept could take 2 years.
06:04:24 [davb]
hazmat: yes.
06:05:58 [davb]
how could it take _forever_ to rewrite in Java, but only 3 months in python?
06:06:16 [davb]
and alot less people.
06:06:28 [hazmat]
you keep the same core.
06:07:00 [hazmat]
openacs4 core, you get to keep all the relational stuff, write some classes for the core, you get to reuse all the queries... it wouldn't take that long.
06:07:15 [davb]
ok...ready....go
06:07:20 [davb]
* davb starts the stopwatch :)
06:07:42 [davb]
ok. it would probably take me a year to learn python though ...
06:08:13 [davb]
maybe not. I am back into programming....tcl was my reintroduction after 10 or 12 years.
06:08:38 [hazmat]
for me i don't see the point at the moment.
06:09:22 [davb]
aha. right.
06:09:42 [hazmat]
if i can get a good or mapping layer to pg/oracle than it might be more interesting.... but i'm not gonna have time for that for a few months.
06:11:33 [davb]
I just want everything....
06:13:32 [hazmat]
you can have what ever you want if you're willing to do it yourself.
06:15:06 [vinod]
and if you know what you're doing (an area that i'm lacking)
06:16:38 [davb]
right. its on my list on things TODO
06:18:02 [hazmat]
and then some company says its patented and slaps you with a lawsuit.
06:18:58 [davb]
ah.
06:19:02 [davb]
what fun.
06:24:02 [talli]
whoof. it's 1 AM out on this side for davb and me.
06:24:09 [talli]
davb, what are you doing still up?
06:24:19 [hazmat]
talli: you mean its early?
06:24:40 [davb]
I am working on this design I was supposed to finish in october :)
06:24:49 [davb]
I am on a roll, in the zone, etc...
06:25:47 [talli]
keep rollin' baby!!!
06:37:40 [davb]
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[#OpenACS] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
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13:45:51 [davb]
* davb arrives at work with not nearly enough sleep...
13:49:24 [markd2]
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14:12:34 [davb]
* davb is working with clueless fools that get paid alot more than he does.
14:14:53 [markd2]
:-(
14:15:20 [docwolf]
*rimshot*
14:15:44 [markd2]
so I hear John Sawyer got the axe
14:15:47 [markd2]
there is still some justice in the world
14:16:02 [docwolf]
who was john sawyer?
14:16:23 [markd2]
the sysadmin manager manager
14:16:29 [markd2]
toadie middle manager
14:33:11 [jim]
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14:50:40 [davb]
good example: alleged programmer spends 1/2 day writing a reports to print out two fields from one table, ordering the report by the data in one of the fields.
14:51:21 [markd2]
select a,b from table order by a;
14:54:24 [davb]
heh, yeah I know that. I think he feels a need to make everything look incredibly diffcult so he can justify it taking a week to do something that takes 1/2 hours
14:54:45 [markd2]
oy
14:55:00 [markd2]
I'm always afraid to try stunts like that
14:55:05 [markd2]
figuring I'd get found out and sacked
14:55:09 [markd2]
then I see losers like that pulling it off
14:55:11 [markd2]
just makes me mad!
14:55:22 [davb]
heh
14:55:35 [markd2]
well, that and the "ethics" thing my folks raised me with
14:55:48 [davb]
its great for me. he makes the schedule, so I can slack off, hack openacs etc... and then finish the work at the last minute.
14:55:53 [davb]
I hate it here...
14:55:55 [davb]
:)
14:56:01 [markd2]
heh
14:57:29 [davb]
ok. what is a query that can find duplicate ids? I have an id number field that access says has duplicates, but it will not reveal what they are...
14:58:46 [markd2]
hmmm
14:58:53 [davb]
is it hard?
14:59:00 [davb]
my brain hurts this morning :)
14:59:01 [markd2]
in oracle-land it's pretty easy
14:59:44 [markd2]
select a.X, a.rowid, b.rowid from oogie a, oogie b where a.X = b.X and a.rowid <> b.rowid
14:59:52 [davb]
cool.
15:00:10 [davb]
actually, I found the secret button that does it in access. they interface is either good, or impossible
15:07:39 [davb]
thanks!
15:07:56 [markd2]
it works?
15:09:09 [davb]
i used the built in one :) but thanks. Yours looks nicer though. the access one uses a subselect with a group by and count...
15:10:56 [markd2]
interesting
15:11:01 [markd2]
can you paste it in here?
15:11:13 [markd2]
I've been curious of the platform-independent way of doing that
15:11:14 [davb]
sure
15:11:19 [markd2]
but never actually got interested enough to work on it
15:11:24 [davb]
heh
15:11:44 [davb]
formatting will probably suck
15:11:45 [davb]
SELECT [Stripped Unions].NEWID, [Stripped Unions].UNIONNAME, [Stripped Unions].PARTY_TYPE, [Stripped Unions].STREET1, [Stripped Unions].STREET2, [Stripped Unions].CITY, [Stripped Unions].STATE, [Stripped Unions].ZIP, [Stripped Unions].COCODE
15:11:45 [davb]
FROM [Stripped Unions]
15:11:45 [davb]
WHERE ((([Stripped Unions].NEWID) In (SELECT [NEWID] FROM [Stripped Unions] As Tmp GROUP BY [NEWID] HAVING Count(*)>1 )))
15:11:45 [davb]
ORDER BY [Stripped Unions].NEWID;
15:11:59 [davb]
ignore the []s
15:16:50 [markd2]
whoa
15:17:35 [davb]
Its specific, but you can obviously substitute all the field and table names.
15:19:14 [markd2]
yeah
15:20:01 [davb]
argh!!
15:20:19 [davb]
access sucks. It has the super-silly Autonumber instead of a sequence. very annoying.
15:21:29 [davb]
actually it doesn't matter, but I have to copy all the data to a new table. I keep forgetting the ID numbers are irelevant... the atmosphere around here is contagious
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15:34:25 [markd2]
quick, hide the goats!
15:34:47 [docwolf]
forget the goats.. we have a new form of life living in our backyard.
15:34:59 [docwolf]
"the secret island of docwolf & rzolf"
15:35:27 [markd2]
"genetic" "experiments"
15:36:12 [davb]
uhoh...
15:36:31 [davb]
* davb saves the work noone will want because they insist on doing it the hard way...
15:39:26 [rzolf]
the turkeyduck took off.
15:39:42 [markd2]
you've got it stripping now. cool
15:39:49 [davb]
docwolf is still the #1 search query at my web site, with 3 requests
15:40:30 [davb]
mozilla 5 is also topping IE 5.5 for user-agent!
15:40:44 [davb]
(of course I think 99% of those are me checking the reports :)
15:41:29 [davb]
brb
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16:07:01 [davb]
http://xmlrpc.free-conversant.com/interfaces/index
16:07:01 [chump]
B: http://xmlrpc.free-conversant.com/interfaces/index from davb
16:07:20 [davb]
B:|XMLRPC interface for Conversant
16:07:20 [chump]
titled item B
16:07:50 [davb]
B: this is sort of what I am thinking of for OpenACS. The methods will have to be tweaked to correspond to the system.
16:07:50 [chump]
commented item B
16:15:17 [djg]
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16:35:29 [davb]
http://www.fawcette.com/interviews/beck_cooper/default.asp
16:35:29 [chump]
C: http://www.fawcette.com/interviews/beck_cooper/default.asp from davb
16:35:42 [davb]
C:|Extreme Programming vs. Interaction Design
16:35:42 [chump]
titled item C
16:36:02 [djg]
davb: do you advocate XP?
16:36:04 [davb]
C: interview with Kent Beck and Alan Cooper
16:36:05 [chump]
commented item C
16:36:09 [djg]
do you use it?
16:36:10 [davb]
djg: I have no clue :)
16:36:41 [djg]
recently saw a speech on it. its mp3 file is online. interested?
16:36:48 [davb]
sure.
16:37:13 [davb]
this is a great interview to make you think.
16:37:19 [djg]
ftp to ftp.ccc.de
16:37:28 [davb]
I really like what Alan Cooper says in there.
16:37:29 [djg]
(talk is in english)
16:37:34 [davb]
ok :)
16:37:57 [davb]
anyonymously?
16:38:09 [davb]
yep!
16:38:38 [davb]
I will have to check it out at home, no speakers here :(
16:38:47 [djg]
hold on a second i have to find the path
16:38:52 [davb]
ok
16:40:14 [djg]
hmm, i cant connect
16:40:43 [djg]
but it must be in pub/congress/congress01/mp3/vortraege/tag2/saal3/28-s3-1800-eXtreme-programming.mp3
16:42:30 [djg]
ah today's mozilla build sucks
16:43:42 [davb]
I have been sticking with the releases.
16:44:27 [djg]
you are a wise man
16:45:21 [davb]
no, just too lazy to download and install it :)
16:45:46 [davb]
I am getting that now.
16:45:48 [davb]
thanks.
16:47:40 [talli]
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16:47:46 [davb]
hey talli.
16:48:01 [talli]
hey davb. you get any sleep last night?
16:48:07 [davb]
sure, 4 hours
16:48:13 [talli]
yowch
16:48:15 [davb]
* davb is too old for this...
16:48:36 [davb]
its ok I am being ignored at work because noone wants to learn anything new or use their brains...
16:48:48 [talli]
i quit working at 3 but couldn't fall asleep until 4
16:48:53 [davb]
ack
16:49:05 [talli]
getting ignored has its benefits
16:49:07 [davb]
Yeah, but you can wander in late.... I have to be here at 8:30
16:49:28 [talli]
wander in late? i'm still at home!
16:49:31 [davb]
see!
16:49:43 [davb]
wander in maybe
16:49:44 [talli]
true enough...
16:49:55 [davb]
C:
16:49:56 [chump]
http://www.fawcette.com/interviews/beck_cooper/default.asp
16:49:57 [chump]
Extreme Programming vs. Interaction Design
16:49:58 [chump]
(davb) interview with Kent Beck and Alan Cooper
16:50:21 [davb]
talli: that is a really interesting interview.
16:50:52 [talli]
i'll check it out
16:55:24 [denshi]
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16:55:37 [denshi]
* denshi hears someone say "too old for this"
16:56:17 [davb]
talli: woah
16:56:50 [talli]
some engineers, i guess. that's all
16:56:59 [davb]
talli: back to the beginning
16:57:13 [davb]
denshi, yes
16:57:19 [davb]
or
16:57:20 [davb]
loggy, off
16:57:34 [davb]
:)
16:57:36 [talli]
yeah. bummer. i know of one of their clients that is kind of preparing for aD to go under
16:57:39 [rbm]
loggy, screw you
16:57:39 [rbm]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'screw you', rbm. Try /msg loggy help
16:57:42 [talli]
and they just hired them!
16:57:45 [rbm]
:-)
16:57:49 [rbm]
Morning BTW
16:58:05 [davb]
talli: does luke need any help porting the changes for ETP to Oracle?
16:58:09 [denshi]
loggy, I know you hold all our dark secrets
16:58:09 [denshi]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'I know you hold all our dark secrets', denshi. Try /msg loggy help
16:58:13 [davb]
hi rbm!
16:58:26 [denshi]
hey rbm
16:58:36 [davb]
* davb wants the new, improved ETP!
16:58:39 [rbm]
hi all. sorry for my absense the last couple of days
16:58:55 [rbm]
I went skiing for the second time in my life monday. It was... interesting.
16:59:04 [davb]
all limbs accounted for?
16:59:20 [rbm]
davb: Yeah :) I did pretty well I think.
17:00:03 [davb]
cool. I need to try that on of these years
17:00:21 [talli]
rbm! where you been??? oh, skiing...
17:00:44 [rbm]
The instructor said I would find out about muscles I didn't know I had the next day. That didn't happen. I didn't feel sore at all the next day.
17:01:02 [davb]
http://www.fawcette.com/interviews/beck_cooper/default.asp
17:01:03 [chump]
D: http://www.fawcette.com/interviews/beck_cooper/default.asp from davb
17:01:04 [davb]
oops
17:01:13 [davb]
* davb depises MS Windows
17:01:15 [rbm]
* rbm twacks davb for blogging that again
17:01:22 [davb]
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/accessdata3/chapter/ch04.html
17:01:23 [chump]
E: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/accessdata3/chapter/ch04.html from davb
17:01:46 [davb]
I keep using highlight, paste as in X windows, instead of highlight, COPY, paste
17:01:52 [talli]
winXP is truly, trily bad
17:02:04 [talli]
it's as bad and consistent as my spelling is
17:02:13 [talli]
IE6 crashes constantly
17:02:21 [davb]
E:| Nice explanation of database design principle
17:02:22 [chump]
titled item E
17:02:30 [davb]
talli: mozilla is the answer
17:02:38 [davb]
or fdisk
17:03:06 [talli]
i'm downloading mozilla now
17:03:13 [davb]
cool.
17:03:18 [talli]
yes, soon i'm going to wipe the thing out
17:03:31 [davb]
its great for browsering. the IRC chat and mail need some work, but are pretty functional
17:03:34 [talli]
once i get hacked, that is
17:03:47 [davb]
I just made up a new verb: browsering :)
17:04:21 [davb]
http://www.google.com/search?q=browsering
17:04:21 [chump]
F: http://www.google.com/search?q=browsering from davb
17:04:39 [davb]
F: A surprisingly large number of hits for "browsering" at google
17:04:40 [chump]
commented item F
17:04:48 [docwolf]
mozilla is fantastic.
17:04:53 [docwolf]
the browser piece at least.
17:05:03 [docwolf]
and soon the calendar will hopefully be working.
17:05:25 [denshi]
http://www.theonion.com/onion3801/archaeologist_tired.html
17:05:27 [chump]
G: http://www.theonion.com/onion3801/archaeologist_tired.html from denshi
17:06:01 [davb]
quit hogging all the onion bandwidth denshi!
17:06:06 [davb]
:)
17:06:07 [denshi]
heh
17:06:35 [denshi]
hey, davb, how old are you?
17:06:36 [talli]
docwolf: are you using mozilla on win?
17:06:47 [davb]
denshi: 30
17:06:59 [rbm]
"Some of the attitudes people had after the decision were annoying. The vision most people have of Brazil is
17:06:59 [rbm]
bizarre. Its not the third world that people seem to think. Yes it has its problems, but it is one of the ten
17:06:59 [rbm]
largest economies in the world, and overall it has lower crime rates than the UK or USA. Its a source of
17:06:59 [rbm]
huge amounts of innovation and many great projects - including things like Window Maker, and apt for
17:06:59 [denshi]
I thought you were pretty young, but now you're tossing around "I'm too old for this"
17:07:00 [rbm]
RPM"
17:07:07 [talli]
denshi: are you hitting on davb?
17:07:10 [rbm]
Alan Cox on Brazil
17:07:19 [davb]
I am seriously disappointed that I actually need sleep now.
17:07:22 [denshi]
rrrrrraou!
17:07:48 [talli]
denshi: i have found the light: kibology
17:10:46 [denshi]
"Pester world leaders for me. I've got my hands full just keeping tabs on god." -- kibo
17:10:46 [davb]
why is IE too dumb to not split HTML tables between pages?
17:10:47 [denshi]
I haven't read that group in too long.
17:11:52 [davb]
http://dvd.ign.com/articles/317496p1.html
17:11:53 [chump]
H: http://dvd.ign.com/articles/317496p1.html from davb
17:11:56 [denshi]
rbm, where are you getting that Alan Cox quote?
17:12:04 [davb]
H:|20th Anniversary Edition of Tron
17:12:05 [chump]
titled item H
17:15:05 [talli]
denshi: that was probably the best line. or the one about pushing god around for the mundane tasks and using the Internet for the big ones.
17:17:31 [denshi]
talli: I usually grep through it for kibo, nick bensema, or this-guy-i-went-to-school-with-whose-name-escapes-me. They are most consistently off-topic.
17:19:07 [denshi]
a.r.kibo is just a good idea anyway -- a channel about being irrelevant, or a forum whose topic is being off-topic. It's like a high energy bound atom. At any moment a.r.k should destabilize and explode, killing nearby groups.
17:20:20 [davb]
kinda like this channel....
17:23:55 [talli]
are we destabalizing?
17:24:24 [talli]
we've got enough MDs that hang around here. perhaps we could hit them up for some psycho-pharmaceuticals to, uhm, mellow out?
17:25:09 [denshi]
is anyone else actually working today?
17:25:10 [davb]
heh
17:25:29 [davb]
I worked from 9:30 to 10:30 and was totally unappreciated...
17:27:29 [denshi]
unless there's some switch in am/pm between those two numbers, I wouldn't appreciate it either.
17:28:06 [talli]
denshi's got a point, davb
17:28:18 [djg]
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17:28:47 [davb]
heh...
17:28:58 [davb]
I saved a week of work in that time...
17:29:15 [davb]
They haven't given me anything to do, so I volunteered to help, they declined.
17:29:56 [talli]
was the week of work in danger? perhaps being threatened with a lawsuit or attacked by a monster?
17:31:04 [talli]
in that case, i applaud
17:33:10 [davb]
heh
17:34:45 [denshi]
I find the 9:30 to 10:30 slot a bit funny, as I would probably spend that hour caffeinating in preperation for the day. So I might not even notice you were there.
17:35:27 [davb]
ah. I came in at 8:30 so that was already done :)
17:36:59 [davb]
aha
17:37:17 [talli]
ah, coffee... such a wonderful stimulant
17:37:33 [talli]
tastes good, revs ya up, won't let you sleep...
17:37:34 [denshi]
i'm in a three coffee job right now.
17:38:02 [talli]
i blame my lack of rest last night on two cups of jet fuel i ordered from a restaurant near my home
17:38:10 [davb]
that will do it.
17:38:27 [talli]
i think it is a columbian bean that was crossed with a coca plant
17:38:40 [talli]
denshi: is a three coffee job good or bad?
17:39:06 [davb]
I was thinking it pays the bills, not quite bad enough to gnaw your leg off kinda job...
17:39:27 [denshi]
I'm looking for a no-coffee, bike to work at 7, attack several random pedestrians with unbridled enthusiasm, leave my co-workers looking for a taser kind of job.
17:39:55 [davb]
me too :) except for the bike part...
17:40:07 [talli]
well, it also depends on the quality of the coffee. is it the cheap watery kind or the robust flavorful kind?
17:40:26 [davb]
I can't complain, our firewall here is basically noexistent. I can IRC and ssh into my development machine to hack OpenACS...
17:40:28 [talli]
denshi: bike to work at 7 AM? am i in this room with motivated types?
17:42:33 [denshi]
talli: there's nothing quite like a job that motivates you to become an early morning psychopath.
17:42:46 [talli]
good point
17:44:54 [denshi]
brb
17:45:56 [vinod]
vinod (~vinod@207-172-245-247.s1009.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs
17:47:34 [davb]
hi vinod
17:48:18 [talli]
vinod: are you always on a dialup?
17:49:33 [vinod]
hey guys
17:49:38 [vinod]
talli: yup :(
17:49:45 [vinod]
except when i'm moonlighting at mit
17:50:10 [rbm]
denshi: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=26257&threshold=1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&cid=2843706
17:50:19 [vinod]
then i do all my apt-get'ing and downloading (750K/s)
17:54:59 [rzolf]
apt...APT!!!
17:56:03 [rbm]
* rbm goes to shower and then heads to class
17:56:10 [vinod]
apt-get install apt-in-nice-neighborhood-where-you-can-get-dsl-or-cable
17:58:32 [denshi]
where does rbm go to school?
17:59:00 [rzolf]
denshi.
17:59:11 [rzolf]
what are you working on these days.
17:59:35 [denshi]
I am crafting the cross upon which I will hang.
17:59:44 [denshi]
It's delightfully tasteful, of course.
18:01:01 [rzolf]
what's distasteful, are those crucifixion scenes where JC has "ripped abs"
18:01:20 [denshi]
"What Would Jesus Eat?"
18:02:00 [rzolf]
apparently only tuna fish and diuretics
18:02:52 [denshi]
do you want to know what I am doing for bread, or the other grabbag of geekery I carry around?
18:03:12 [rzolf]
yes. bread. also, wehre do you live now?
18:03:29 [rzolf]
note, my japanese follow up is "you dont want to go there"
18:03:42 [vinod]
* vinod wants to know about the geekery
18:04:07 [rzolf]
and, is SF really the economic wasteland i think it is?
18:04:48 [denshi]
I read your follow up on Japan. I'll remember, when I go, to have an evil plan far surpassing yours in deviousness and complexity.
18:05:13 [denshi]
SF is an economic wasteland.
18:05:17 [rzolf]
well, as far as I can tell. the only good way to work there is to work for an american (or french) company.
18:05:25 [denshi]
french?
18:05:34 [rzolf]
french == work 25 hours a week. ;-)
18:05:44 [denshi]
ooohh...
18:06:04 [rzolf]
unless you want to do something like work for Sega.
18:06:13 [talli]
SF is an economic wasteland because all of the big companies in the valley are outsourcing dev to india
18:06:22 [talli]
because "it's cheaper"
18:06:26 [rzolf]
and all the small companies are gone.
18:07:01 [rzolf]
is it really cheaper, or does it mean the broker is taking a much huger cut?
18:07:27 [talli]
it's the weirdest fucking logic i've ever heard
18:07:55 [rzolf]
well it might actually be cheaper.
18:07:59 [talli]
big companies don't want to hire valley programmers because it might be slightly more expensive
18:08:27 [denshi]
I really haven't seen much of the 'outsource to india' stories in SF. I'm just seeing the whole place crash and burn. No one is writing code right now. Except for the bioinf people.
18:08:31 [talli]
but more importantly, they are worried that if the economy turns around, it will be difficult to keep the programmers who might be lured away to more exciting startups
18:08:45 [rzolf]
ah.
18:08:48 [talli]
so they would prefer to send the work to india where the code monkeys are locked up in sweatshops
18:09:20 [talli]
denshi: the crash and burn is of the dotcom and the peripheral companies
18:09:21 [rzolf]
well knowing what I know about most consultancies, I'd outsource to india.
18:09:48 [talli]
the biggies still have work around. they're mostly cutting off the cruft they gathered over teh past five years
18:10:04 [rzolf]
i'm talking about small ones. ;-)
18:10:10 [rzolf]
like aD or Bangalore? Bangalore wins.
18:10:16 [talli]
:)
18:10:35 [talli]
yeah, i heard devLogics churned out some hardcore code
18:10:53 [rzolf]
the thing I'm wondering though, is the total cost actually cheaper. or is like the president of bangalore information systems just becoming ungodly rich
18:11:00 [til]
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18:11:16 [talli]
the president of the bangalore info systems is becoming ungodly rich
18:11:24 [rzolf]
that's what i assumed.
18:11:36 [talli]
IBM web services does the same thing, only they import their monkeys to the client
18:11:49 [talli]
so they pay the coders like $50/hr but charge 300/hr
18:11:58 [rzolf]
well that's what all those places do.
18:12:05 [rzolf]
* rzolf worked for one in college
18:12:10 [talli]
i know of a company that has a 20 million budget for the ecommerce system
18:12:22 [talli]
that is going to india. for the above perverted reasons
18:12:26 [talli]
and it will be in java
18:12:34 [talli]
and it will be a disaster
18:12:38 [rzolf]
it is nearly impossible to get a $300/hr job as joe random independent programmer.
18:12:42 [talli]
because no one there has any idea what they are doing
18:12:56 [rzolf]
a $20M ecommerce system will be a disaster no matter who does it.
18:12:59 [talli]
does it matter if it's $300?
18:13:07 [talli]
it just has to be more than 50/hr, right/
18:13:09 [talli]
?
18:13:15 [davb]
works for me :)
18:13:21 [rzolf]
well it is almost impossible to get a job more than $50/hr these days.
18:13:24 [talli]
sorry, not ecommerce. eBizness
18:13:29 [rzolf]
even if you are king dong.
18:13:30 [davb]
actually I am working up from $0/hour
18:13:42 [talli]
rzolf: good point
18:13:46 [rzolf]
unless you just have mega contacts.
18:13:47 [denshi]
I have one friend in IBM Global Services. She's smart, but I really can't see paying her $300.
18:13:59 [denshi]
per hour, I mean.
18:14:07 [rzolf]
actually it matters not if you are good , you just have to know people
18:14:23 [rzolf]
erf.
18:14:55 [rzolf]
one sad fact
18:15:01 [rzolf]
well maybe not so sad?
18:15:05 [denshi]
talli: yes
18:15:22 [rzolf]
is that, you can probably get a job plugging in network cards for $50/hr
18:15:28 [rzolf]
more easily than a programming job.
18:16:20 [rzolf]
for instance, www.geeksquad.com in minneapolis is "blowing up" while every dev shop in minneapolis is imploding.
18:16:34 [talli]
geeksquad is not a dev shop, though
18:16:46 [rzolf]
i know, that's what i'm saying.
18:16:54 [talli]
oh, right
18:16:54 [rzolf]
they charge like $200 to reboot your workstation.
18:16:59 [talli]
yowch
18:16:59 [rzolf]
and people love them.
18:17:13 [talli]
but you have to wear those fscking uniforms
18:17:50 [rzolf]
but denshi, are you in california?
18:17:52 [rzolf]
or texas?
18:17:54 [rzolf]
or other?
18:18:09 [davb]
people don't know that they have to pay $200 to have the workstation rebooted because of crappy programming :)
18:18:28 [rzolf]
well sadly, microsoft is probably one of the best places to work as a developer.
18:19:15 [denshi]
I guess I should get around to answering rolf. Enough kibology for one day.
18:19:19 [rzolf]
heh.
18:19:29 [davb]
so I should start practicing my golf game if I want to make money having fun?
18:20:08 [rzolf]
davb: i read a book about some guy who saved up some money, then quit his job to play golf 80/hrs a week. after a year, he became one of golf's greatest hustlers.
18:20:29 [rzolf]
and makes huge sums of money playing celebrities, etc. for money.
18:20:42 [davb]
that has to be better than sitting in the dark by youself with a computer...
18:20:50 [rzolf]
yeah no kidding.
18:20:56 [davb]
bbl: lunch/algebra
18:23:41 [denshi]
fscking cow-orkers
18:24:10 [talli]
wow. there are many subtexts to your last line, denshi
18:24:32 [denshi]
call me subliminial.
18:24:57 [denshi]
s/[\w ]+$/color me subliminal/
18:28:58 [denshi]
I need to communicate to producers not on my billing that they have lower priority than IRC.
18:38:24 [davb]
bbl
18:38:28 [davb]
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18:54:27 [rzolf]
aim is hosed.
18:57:13 [vinod]
the quality of aD's bboards continues to rise - http://www.arsdigita.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg%5fid=000kZH
19:00:21 [talli]
that's exactly how i feel!!!
19:00:44 [talli]
rzolf: try trillian. http://www.trillian.cc it's not a replacement for the AIM service, but it's a really cool app
19:00:59 [talli]
it works with AIM, MSN, Yahoo, and it actually works!
19:01:11 [rzolf]
there is this python thing that replaces the server
19:01:14 [rzolf]
it is kinda cool.
19:01:47 [talli]
brb. tuna sandwich calls
19:02:53 [rzolf]
you can point your aim client at your own AIM server, and it provides all the aim services privately
19:03:07 [rzolf]
so you don't have to use some lame off-brand messaging app.
19:03:11 [djg]
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19:03:19 [rzolf]
like Yorx Instant Messenger
19:03:20 [hazmat]
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19:09:46 [davb]
does that come free when you get your film developed now?
19:17:12 [talli]
denshi: davb kibo'ed you
19:18:13 [denshi]
d'oh!
19:23:50 [davb]
Yorx Instant Messenger
19:24:02 [davb]
resembles a cheap mail your film processor :)
19:24:05 [docwolf]
hey, can anyone recommend a merchant bank that doesn't suck?
19:24:28 [talli]
good question
19:24:36 [davb]
docwolf: in this universe?
19:24:50 [docwolf]
davb: that would be best.
19:25:02 [davb]
tricky.
19:25:14 [davb]
http://louisrosenfeld.com/home/bloug_archive/000063.html#comments
19:25:15 [chump]
I: http://louisrosenfeld.com/home/bloug_archive/000063.html#comments from davb
19:25:31 [davb]
I:|Disposable aka Transitional Information Architecture
19:25:31 [chump]
titled item I
19:25:40 [docwolf]
hehe
19:25:43 [docwolf]
poor lou
19:26:03 [davb]
you know him?
19:26:27 [davb]
I:[see also: Design For Destruction|http://www.iawiki.net/DesignForDestruction]
19:26:27 [chump]
commented item I
19:26:28 [docwolf]
yeah. he's a michigan guy. he ran Argus associates. had a couple of meals with him.
19:26:29 [docwolf]
good guy.
19:26:35 [davb]
cool.
19:26:47 [docwolf]
firm went belly-up :-(
19:28:01 [rzolf]
can i start ranting about information architecture?
19:28:07 [davb]
go ahead :)
19:28:32 [rzolf]
what's the deal with it? who cares?
19:28:39 [docwolf]
uh oh
19:28:41 [rzolf]
what do information architects even do?
19:28:48 [docwolf]
this is not a good thing to hear from my chief architect...
19:28:56 [rzolf]
haha.
19:29:27 [davb]
about $300/hour, I think
19:29:44 [davb]
"We have to deal with the programmer's mind-a much more resistant material than mere steel-reinforced concrete.
19:30:08 [rzolf]
that's just because most programmers are morons.
19:30:29 [docwolf]
looks like lou has started his own LLC
19:30:35 [docwolf]
after argus tanked..
19:30:36 [docwolf]
that was sad.
19:30:59 [jim]
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19:31:45 [davb]
rzolf: I see :)
19:31:52 [jim]
re.
19:32:02 [davb]
docwolf: well, I suspect all their clients did likewise...
19:32:03 [docwolf]
lou would be the first to admit that information architecture isn't "profound"
19:32:13 [docwolf]
he's not a major pontificator, like nielson.
19:32:17 [docwolf]
or greenspun.
19:32:19 [rzolf]
neilsen is embarrassing.
19:32:27 [talli]
are you crapping on philg, docwolf?
19:32:35 [davb]
oh yeah I forgot...
19:32:36 [docwolf]
me? never.... :-0
19:32:40 [talli]
he's got a mobile home, you know
19:32:40 [rzolf]
so is that other guy.
19:32:42 [rzolf]
"norman"
19:32:45 [talli]
and you're in florida...
19:32:46 [davb]
I would never be in this mess if I hadn't read philg's book.
19:32:55 [davb]
I'd still be safe building crappy static web sites.
19:32:58 [davb]
:)
19:33:07 [rzolf]
norman is worse because at least nielsen puts out a stupid, obvious article everyday.
19:33:38 [docwolf]
norman just writes the occasional article about the difficulty of using doors or teapots.
19:33:40 [docwolf]
very useful.
19:33:46 [rzolf]
yeah.
19:33:58 [rzolf]
i hope lars doesn't sink too far into that sort of thing.
19:34:04 [davb]
the whole point of that link is : make it work... fix it later :)
19:34:42 [talli]
rzolf: i don't quite understand. you're always complaining about how you can't find a job that will pay you 200K for doing nothing, but you're the first one to mention the emperor has not clothes on the guys who are pulling it off. join, do not fight! you have enough system integration experience! all you need now is a blog...
19:35:00 [rzolf]
talli: i was just about to go there. ;-)
19:35:18 [rbm]
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19:35:20 [rzolf]
like. how do i get this job.
19:35:38 [talli]
first, get a color palette
19:35:40 [docwolf]
my advice is to study enron closely.
19:35:44 [rzolf]
jakob nielsen makes $30K a day to tell people that they shouldn't have long pages of text.
19:35:47 [davb]
not too closely
19:35:48 [talli]
can't do anything unless you know the best color schemes
19:36:04 [rzolf]
but what i'm really wondering...is it just jakob nielsen and nobody else?
19:36:05 [davb]
doesn;t he have long pages of text on his site?
19:36:10 [rzolf]
davb: yes.
19:36:16 [davb]
ah, thought so.
19:36:17 [talli]
then, start wearing turtle necks
19:36:18 [docwolf]
nielsens site is an embarrassment.
19:36:21 [rzolf]
davb: imo, his page is an info architecture disaster.
19:36:24 [talli]
and comfortable shoes
19:36:26 [davb]
its an eyesore
19:36:50 [davb]
I suggest writing a book
19:37:03 [davb]
anyway this is the best web usability etc.. book out there:
19:37:04 [davb]
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0789723107/qid=1011209885/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_67_1/102-5534975-3405711
19:37:04 [chump]
J: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0789723107/qid=1011209885/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_67_1/102-5534975-3405711 from davb
19:37:12 [davb]
J:|Don't Make Me Think
19:37:12 [chump]
titled item J
19:37:24 [rzolf]
i'm going to become a nurse. this is all too embarrassing.
19:37:25 [talli]
davb: i completely agree
19:37:27 [talli]
it's a great book
19:37:56 [davb]
the secret is, thats all you need to know. thats it. if you have enough content that you need more advice, you need a librarian.
19:38:11 [talli]
how about starting a new computer language/paradigm?
19:38:29 [davb]
or a new OS
19:38:50 [talli]
like, talk about how so far no one has been able to build a language that could effectively be both stateful and alcoholic
19:38:54 [jim]
everyone's already doing all those things :)
19:38:54 [rzolf]
or a new religion which will be embraced by hollywood superstars.
19:39:04 [talli]
nononono...
19:39:12 [talli]
there's no future in that
19:39:22 [talli]
you want to c0d3rz
19:39:41 [talli]
s/to/tje
19:39:50 [talli]
s/tje/humpty dumpty
19:40:24 [hazmat]
talli, whats the meaning of life?
19:40:46 [talli]
dunno, but i think i saw it up your butt and around the corner.
19:41:19 [talli]
(classic retort i learned during my salad days at andover)
19:41:41 [talli]
i have the world's largest proposal due in approximately 24 hours
19:41:50 [talli]
and they are asking for proof of insurance
19:41:52 [davb]
cool. see you at 3am
19:42:03 [talli]
WTF? why is a kkklient interested in such things?
19:42:27 [davb]
what kind of insurace do programmers need?
19:42:29 [rzolf]
proof of insurance?
19:42:48 [talli]
yes. certificate of insurance
19:42:56 [talli]
and they want the name of our insurance broker, too
19:43:02 [rzolf]
what on earth.
19:43:12 [talli]
tell me about it
19:43:23 [rzolf]
what kind of insurance? bankrupcy insurance?
19:43:27 [talli]
probably want to do an audit or something.
19:43:34 [talli]
i have no idea what kind of insurance
19:43:35 [davb]
insurance that you won't take their money and skip town?
19:43:53 [rzolf]
that seems beyond intrusive.
19:43:56 [docwolf]
anyone know of a good merchant bank *cough*
19:44:03 [davb]
do they have lots of $$$?
19:44:16 [talli]
it's a chapter of the red cross
19:44:23 [davb]
ah.
19:45:34 [talli]
davb: has there been any word about the debian company Progeny in any of the debian places you hang around?
19:45:51 [talli]
their rep, work, etc?
19:46:08 [davb]
talli: I hang there not
19:46:18 [davb]
unless I want to ask a question, and then I bail...
19:47:01 [davb]
All I know is they do consulting. they created their own distro, but their clients wanted "real" debian, so they just use that.
19:48:43 [davb]
hopefully the debian project will adopt the progeny installer.
19:49:36 [talli]
for this project, we need some heavy duty long term backup support. meaning OS and DB
19:49:50 [talli]
i contacted RH, but they are coming across as beauracratic and uptight
19:50:16 [talli]
progeny, though, is still small. and they're not interested in doing app dev. just OS dev and supprt
19:51:12 [davb]
ah. I see.
19:52:12 [talli]
and ian murdock started the company, so their credentials are pretty damn good
19:52:53 [davb]
right.
19:53:11 [talli]
he is thought of highly in the community, right?
19:53:24 [davb]
I think so. he is the ian in debian :)
19:54:29 [talli]
yes, that's true
19:56:16 [jim]
yeah, but progeny folded
19:56:43 [davb]
they just stopped making their own distribution of linux.
19:56:59 [jim]
so they're just using debian itself?
19:57:04 [davb]
yes.
19:57:12 [jim]
and adding packages or the like?
19:57:26 [davb]
they just do consulting. they don't sell software anymore.
19:57:34 [talli]
jim: from what i've gathered, they do OS consulting and support
19:57:53 [jim]
oic... so you can hire them and have someone to sue :P
19:58:08 [talli]
they support Debian and all the debian derivatives and "give back whenever they can"
19:58:34 [jim]
which is more of the time if they work on stuff like this
19:59:15 [talli]
hope so :)
20:15:13 [talli]
has anyone here ever used DB2?
20:15:26 [hazmat]
i wonder if progeny has insurance.
20:15:31 [talli]
oh man.
20:21:06 [rzolf]
that insurance thing seems odd.
20:21:21 [rzolf]
especially if they aren't specifiying _what_ insurance it is.
20:22:20 [rzolf]
"each musea employee has 80/20 dental coverage through aetna"
20:23:51 [davb]
heh
20:30:18 [rzolf]
must avoid irc. later d00ds
20:30:19 [rzolf]
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20:34:04 [davb]
http://www.satn.org/archive/2002_01_13_archive.html#8749690
20:34:05 [chump]
K: http://www.satn.org/archive/2002_01_13_archive.html#8749690 from davb
20:34:10 [davb]
K:|A name is not a name
20:34:11 [chump]
titled item K
20:34:27 [davb]
K: what should be do about the scarcity of _good_ domain names?
20:34:27 [chump]
commented item K
20:35:01 [davb]
K: I like the mozilla solution. type what you want in the URL bar, and hit the down arrow, zoom, you are off to google to answer your question.
20:35:02 [chump]
commented item K
20:35:20 [davb]
K: of course, you can configure your preferred search solution.
20:35:20 [chump]
commented item K
20:35:58 [davb]
K: http://www.satn.org/archive/2002_01_13_archive.html#8682739 - oops right page, wrong link
20:35:58 [chump]
commented item K
20:51:24 [markd2]
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20:54:18 [davb]
markd2: no more <> in the topic! :)
21:00:35 [markd2]
cool! room for more goats!
21:08:05 [denshi]
http://www.goats.com/archive/990910.html
21:08:06 [chump]
L: http://www.goats.com/archive/990910.html from denshi
21:08:33 [vinod]
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21:09:33 [markd2]
heh
21:09:42 [markd2]
the satanic chicken is cute
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21:26:52 [markd2]
* markd2 curses denshi
21:27:10 [markd2]
gotta see how this beer story finishes
21:27:15 [markd2]
as each strip downloads .... slowly ...
21:27:29 [davb]
heh
21:30:08 [davb]
* davb has a new idea for a OpenACS product name: fulcrum ...
21:30:27 [talli]
fulcrum isn't bad!
21:31:16 [davb]
well I gotta go.. I'll post to the bboard later...
21:31:19 [talli]
i certainly like it more than pluribus or endictus, both of which sound a bit like they can be caught from a toilet seat
21:31:19 [davb]
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21:33:04 [denshi]
markd2: I'm sure the right name for OACS is somewhere in those goats archives.
21:33:36 [markd2]
OpenGSB: "goat scrotum beer"
21:40:27 [talli]
* talli curses uptight A-types, especially ones with MBAs
21:42:06 [denshi]
markd: goats is a particular brand of funny, in that whenever they have a web plot in the comic, they make the actual site on the web. For instance, brains4zombies.com is still up and taking orders.
21:42:29 [markd2]
heh
21:43:41 [markd2]
this series is deliciously weird: http://www.goats.com/archive/991011.html
21:45:53 [denshi]
chump should quote this for posterity:
21:45:55 [denshi]
http://brains4zombies.com/
21:45:55 [chump]
M: http://brains4zombies.com/ from denshi
21:47:10 [denshi]
chump, do you respond to the same syntax that loggy listens to?
21:47:18 [markd2]
nope
21:57:24 [talli]
http://siliconvalley.com/docs/opinion/dgillmor/dg011602.htm
21:57:24 [chump]
N: http://siliconvalley.com/docs/opinion/dgillmor/dg011602.htm from talli
21:58:27 [talli]
denshi: Down with Capitalism! Up with the Proletariat!
21:58:44 [talli]
shit. why can't i log things to chump with my client?
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22:14:42 [denshi]
gotta go.
22:17:52 [markd2]
l84
22:17:55 [markd2]
er, l8r
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