IRC log of openacs on 2002-01-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:00:20 [denshi]
talli: a funny counterexample is Mike Ellison, who went there before me. He didn't get his diploma from TAMS (the school in question), as they didn't like him going to class just for exams, and he dropped out of UT when a job came along. He's done tech in 3 countries and makes more money than anyone else I know. No high school diploma.
00:00:47 [talli_]
sounds like some smarty pants went to that school
00:01:16 [talli_]
i think that's cool. many people go in many different directions
00:01:26 [talli_]
i went to 3 colleges. i hated each one.
00:01:38 [vinod_]
where else besides tufts?
00:01:41 [denshi]
which ones?
00:01:42 [talli_]
but i don't think i would have done very well by dropping out without my diploma
00:02:21 [talli_]
i started at pomona college, a small lib arts school in SoCal. only went for a year. then went to a JC in the south bay called Foothill College for a year. then finished at tufts
00:03:11 [davb]
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00:03:36 [talli_]
i found the JC to be the most competitive environment actually
00:03:41 [denshi]
isn't foothill college that one in Los Altos with the neat radio station?
00:03:46 [talli_]
yeah!
00:03:55 [talli_]
my bro has been a DJ there for over 10 years
00:04:01 [talli_]
Andy Cadaver
00:04:08 [denshi]
that, talli, is truly awesome.
00:04:21 [talli_]
yeah, it's a great radio station
00:04:29 [denshi]
i'm convinced 6 degrees is too much. I live in a 4 degrees of seperation world.
00:05:09 [denshi]
how was pomona?
00:05:11 [talli_]
although it's gotten increasingly weird. they were playing SubPop in the mid-eighties, and when grunge exploded they felt betrayed
00:05:42 [talli_]
so now they refuse to play anything remotely mainstream. the result is mostly noise like chainsaws
00:06:00 [denshi]
rotfl
00:06:08 [talli_]
pomona sucked. i played football there my freshman year, which sounds far more "romantic" than the reality
00:06:24 [talli_]
there were about 25 guys on the team, yet i was the third string QB
00:06:34 [talli_]
i was known as "The Jew with the Clipboard"
00:06:48 [vinod_]
wow - talli is a sports-stud
00:06:56 [denshi]
I only know one person who went to pomona, a girl who consistently, and politely, refused to date me for about 18 months....I sort of had to write that off.
00:07:00 [vinod_]
no wonder he's always makin fun of us geeks
00:07:14 [talli_]
otherwise, pomona probably offered the best education of any school i attended, but the social atmosphere was essentially that of high school
00:07:21 [talli_]
1400 kids.
00:07:47 [denshi]
ugh. high school is almost the antithesis of my college experiences.
00:07:59 [talli_]
and no one interacted with any of the other schools, which all were kind of oddball. each school on the Claremont campus had its own oddball personality
00:08:38 [denshi]
claremont is affiliated with caltech xor harvey mudd?
00:08:48 [talli_]
well, denshi, it sounds like you didn't have too much time in high school...
00:08:51 [davb]
bbl
00:08:55 [denshi]
heh.
00:08:59 [talli_]
well, there are five schools on the claremont campus
00:09:07 [davb]
argh xchats window is off the top again..
00:09:10 [davb]
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00:09:12 [talli_]
Pomona College (the "elite" liberal arts school)
00:09:55 [talli_]
Claremont Mckenna College (the right wing liberal arts college known for having high date rape and beer consumption rates)
00:10:07 [talli_]
Pitzer College (hippy frisbee throwers)
00:10:09 [denshi]
vinod: where did you go?
00:10:20 [talli_]
Scripps College (all girls, and most of them ugly)
00:10:34 [talli_]
Harvey Mudd (genius math-science nerds)
00:10:53 [vinod_]
univ of wisconsin (big huge state school)
00:10:59 [talli_]
in madison?
00:11:03 [vinod_]
yup
00:11:09 [docwolf]
vinod: badgers suck!
00:11:11 [denshi]
talli: that sounds like some kind of post-apocalyptic RPG setting.
00:11:21 [talli_]
it was worse
00:11:21 [vinod_]
docwolf: you must be from michigan
00:11:29 [djg]
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00:11:36 [talli_]
stick it in the middle of the Inland Empire, it's the worst place in teh world
00:11:40 [docwolf]
vinod: yeah, but when i was a wolverine, the badgers were still floundering.
00:11:47 [vinod_]
haha
00:11:58 [talli_]
the Inland Empire is what they call the area 45 minutes east of LA. or, where the smog goes to die
00:12:08 [vinod_]
right around when i left, they started winning rose bowls left and right
00:12:14 [docwolf]
vinod: madison is cool, though
00:12:26 [vinod_]
yeah - i had a blast there
00:12:29 [talli_]
there's a mountain 4-5 miles away from claremont upon which people ski that sometimes couldn't be seen due to smog
00:12:48 [vinod_]
besides the 2 wks in january when it drops to -20 degrees, the weather is pretty reasonable
00:12:55 [talli_]
vinod_: i hear that madison is a nice liberal place, kinda like a berkeley of the midwest. true?
00:13:00 [vinod_]
and it's between 2 lakes with lots of free outdoors stuff
00:13:13 [vinod_]
talli_: yup - very liberal
00:13:15 [denshi]
anyway. I think what convinced me was 5 months ago, a research institute adjunct to Berkeley wanted to hire me but couldn't automatically enter me into grad school b/c I have no BS. So credentialism finally got me.
00:13:38 [talli_]
denshi, what grad department?
00:13:39 [vinod_]
they were protesting having students do the 'pledge of allegiance' after 9/11 because of civil rights concerns
00:13:47 [talli_]
my kinda place
00:13:58 [docwolf]
vinod: that sounds even screwier than ann arbor
00:14:05 [talli_]
hey now!
00:14:07 [docwolf]
(where it is de facto legal to smoke pot in the street..)
00:14:11 [denshi]
CS, probably, but maybe bio. Cross-dept anyway, so what's it matter.
00:14:49 [talli_]
docwolf and vinod_: They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - benjamin franklin
00:14:53 [vinod_]
docwolf: they have a 'harvestfest' every year where they block off a street, place beer-barrels on each corner and everyone tokes up
00:15:04 [denshi]
I wonder about social down at UT. By now all the students look like kids to me.
00:15:07 [talli_]
si that so wrong?
00:15:17 [vinod_]
talli_: but they actually forbade kids from saying the pledge
00:15:24 [talli_]
even better!
00:15:30 [vinod_]
haha
00:16:06 [docwolf]
talli is an anarchist :-)
00:16:51 [talli_]
if you mean anarchist in the liberal, peaceful chompsky-esque way, i would tend to agree
00:17:06 [talli_]
not an anarchist like the clueless bastards that screwed up the protests in seattle
00:17:46 [denshi]
oops- gotta go.
00:17:52 [docwolf]
good. i don't have to worry about you knocking over a starbucks.
00:18:05 [denshi]
goodnight, all you degree wielding, unemployed anarchists.
00:18:06 [docwolf]
i gotta get my fix somewhere
00:19:25 [talli_]
in my world, drugs would be legal! you could get your fix ANYWHERE and ANYHOW!!!
00:19:39 [vinod_]
i think talli is living in "his" world
00:19:49 [jim]
then they'd have the same status as candy
00:19:50 [docwolf]
in my world, the only "controlled substances" would be antibiotics
00:19:59 [talli_]
christ, my run at the senate is going to get screwed by loggy
00:20:07 [vinod_]
lol
00:20:13 [docwolf]
and pixie sticks. we are too fat as-is
00:20:16 [denshi]
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00:20:27 [vinod_]
talli: don't worry. they won't be able to prove that talli_ is talli
00:20:44 [talli_]
unitl now. thanks, vinod.
00:20:50 [vinod_]
oops :-)
00:23:22 [talli_]
does anyone have any experience with IBM server hardware?
00:24:15 [docwolf]
what size?
00:25:41 [talli_]
any. but lower end, mostly
00:25:50 [talli_]
x86 stuff
00:26:12 [docwolf]
nope
00:26:13 [docwolf]
sorry
01:02:50 [talli]
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[#OpenACS] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
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03:12:00 [talli]
anyone around?
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03:37:21 [talli]
vinod: you there?
03:38:07 [talli]
vinod: i was wondering how much progress you've made on the installation guide, and whether you might like someone to proof or edit it?
03:38:12 [markd2]
Vinod is like Elvis
03:38:54 [vinod]
what? you mean fat and ugly?
03:39:14 [markd2]
you're Everywhere, man
03:39:17 [vinod]
talli: i'm mostly done. i need to finish up the 'next steps' page
03:39:23 [vinod]
markd2: ahhh :-)
03:39:38 [talli]
well, whenever you want someone to take a quick look, lemme know
03:39:40 [markd2]
* markd2 sings "Vinod needs boats... Vinod needs boats"
03:39:40 [vinod]
i'd love for you to look at it and be brutal with comments (i know you tiptoe around me all the time)
03:39:44 [talli]
i'd be happy to help
03:40:26 [vinod]
cool. it's at http://kurup.com/acs/openacs4 but i'm going to try to upload some changes later tonight
03:44:16 [talli]
ok, do you mind if i write up some suggestions?
03:44:27 [vinod]
not at all
03:44:55 [vinod]
there's comment links on each page or you can email me or whatever
03:45:04 [talli]
ok, cool
03:46:31 [vinod]
talli: is museatech still doing openacs hosting?
03:47:33 [vinod]
everytime i look at my site, i have this urge to tear it apart and move it to openacs-4
04:13:32 [talli]
vinod: typically, where might one find their .emacs file?
04:13:40 [talli]
in what directory?
04:13:47 [vinod]
talli: in your home directory
04:14:01 [talli]
i can't seem to find mine. yes, well... i'm using windows
04:14:06 [vinod]
home/vinod/.emacs
04:14:07 [vinod]
oh
04:14:15 [vinod]
i'm not sure where they are in windows
04:14:29 [talli]
thanks
04:18:46 [vinod]
talli: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/windows/faq3.html#startup
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04:51:17 [talli]
vinod, do you mind sending me the source files for the install guide?
04:51:56 [talli]
so i can proof and do some editing? i hope you don't mind. rbm asked me to edit and proof them, as per the status page
04:58:54 [vinod]
sure - do you want them now? I'm gonna be doing some minor updating tonight
05:01:18 [talli]
now is fine, or whenever.
05:01:30 [talli]
oh, and do you think i might borrow your .emacs file? :)
05:01:43 [talli]
i'm having some issues with some .emacs i got over the web
05:01:47 [talli]
you know how those things go...
05:08:14 [vinod]
haha
05:08:32 [vinod]
i'll send them now
05:08:41 [docwolf]
ugh.. i think i just bought into a new fad
05:09:07 [docwolf]
have you guys heard of this new .name TLD that goes into effect tomorrow?
05:10:10 [vinod]
no
05:10:27 [docwolf]
i can't tell if it's gonna be a mega-flop or not
05:10:43 [docwolf]
the domains take the form of firstname.lastname.name
05:12:48 [docwolf]
it may be cool (?)
05:12:59 [vinod]
how are people with the same name handled - i suppose first-come-first-served
05:13:05 [docwolf]
yeah
05:13:12 [docwolf]
that's why i hedged & signed up at register.com
05:13:29 [vinod]
do you have to verify your name? or can i get bill.gates.name?
05:13:40 [docwolf]
you can do the gates thing, i think
05:13:48 [docwolf]
though i'm sure that if someone challenged it, they'd check.
05:14:07 [vinod]
yeah. i should probably get my name before talli defames me
05:14:25 [docwolf]
talli will redirect it to goatse.cx
05:14:29 [vinod]
haha
05:15:04 [talli]
oh man
05:15:12 [talli]
i just went to that website for the first time
05:15:18 [talli]
holy moly
05:15:18 [docwolf]
HAHA
05:15:27 [talli]
oh christ
05:15:29 [vinod]
yeah right. like we believe that :-)
05:15:40 [talli]
is that what you guys do in med school?
05:15:42 [talli]
christ
05:15:56 [docwolf]
child's play
05:15:58 [vinod]
i saw it through slashdot
05:15:59 [talli]
vinod: is your .emacs for v21 or v20?
05:16:11 [vinod]
and thats when i decided to set my mod filter at 4
05:16:12 [talli]
we see everything through slashdot, don't we vinod
05:16:27 [talli]
have you seen weirder shit in med school?
05:16:36 [docwolf]
oh yeah
05:16:42 [vinod]
emacs v 20.7.2
05:16:56 [docwolf]
i'd see that kind of stuff in the call room all the time.
05:17:03 [vinod]
ouch
05:17:03 [talli]
oof. is it a big deal if i'm using v21?
05:17:04 [docwolf]
we had a 'swinging' hospital.
05:17:09 [talli]
gimme a break
05:17:12 [talli]
what's the call room?
05:17:13 [vinod]
* vinod makes mental note not to step foot in michigan
05:17:45 [docwolf]
haha
05:17:57 [vinod]
talli: i don't know about the v20 vs v21 thing. i would guess that most of the stuff should still work
05:18:29 [docwolf]
talli: a call room is a place where you as an intern can go & sleep when not being bothered by patients slumping over.
05:18:51 [talli]
ah, ok
05:19:10 [talli]
* talli will join vinod's anti-MI bias
05:19:30 [talli]
vinod: another poor emacs newbie question
05:19:44 [vinod]
unless your attending physician is a workaholic, micromanager and decides to use the call room to sleep, so the poor intern gets stuck sleeping in the chair at the nurses station
05:19:47 [talli]
wait, kinda useless since you're not using win
05:20:15 [talli]
is that better or worse than docwolf's call room?
05:20:30 [docwolf]
vinod: haha. i actually once had to sleep in a unit bed. the nurses thoguht it was hillarious :-(
05:20:32 [vinod]
i can't think of anything worse than docwolf's call room
05:20:59 [talli]
what's a unit bed?
05:21:24 [vinod]
docwolf: me too once. worse night of my ICU life
05:21:30 [docwolf]
sorry. shorthand... unit bed = a bed in the intensive care unit
05:21:32 [vinod]
unit bed = empty bed in an ICU
05:22:49 [docwolf]
ugh.. those were some crazy days.
05:22:58 [docwolf]
i'm getting antsy just thinking about it.
05:23:04 [vinod]
haha
05:23:21 [docwolf]
.. the pager was like chinese water torture
05:24:04 [vinod]
yeah - my heart still jumps at the sound of a beeper
05:24:15 [docwolf]
same here. it's weird.
05:24:31 [docwolf]
a totally conditioned response.
05:25:00 [docwolf]
it's like a reflex... hear the pager go off, yell "20 of lasix. goodnight."
05:25:07 [vinod]
lol
05:26:33 [vinod]
* vinod is picturing docwolf hearing a beeper go off in a movie theater
05:26:57 [docwolf]
(.. cut to docwolf doubling over and vomiting)
05:27:21 [vinod]
haha
05:27:34 [vinod]
i could never eat when i was in the hospital
05:27:54 [docwolf]
yeah.. it was tough
05:28:06 [vinod]
i thought it would get better as time went on, but to this day, i only snack when i'm working
05:28:07 [docwolf]
though i did manage to develop a pretty good stimulant habit.
05:28:36 [vinod]
yeah, i was lucky to avoid that. didn't start drinking coffee daily until i became a programmer
05:28:59 [docwolf]
it's a curse.
05:29:15 [talli]
so... did you guys hook up with the other drs and nurses as much as the drs and nurses on ER do?
05:29:21 [docwolf]
HAHAHA
05:29:48 [vinod]
* vinod has no comment (and hopes that the rumours fly)
05:29:49 [docwolf]
dude.. don't mix biz & pleasure!
05:29:58 [docwolf]
those nurses can make your life a living hell
05:30:34 [talli]
as you may have heard in biz school, docwolf, "don't get your meat where you get your bread"
05:30:48 [docwolf]
haha
05:31:04 [docwolf]
i only hooked up with one classmate, then realized it was a pretty bad idea.
05:31:12 [talli]
med or biz school?
05:31:20 [vinod]
talk about being in a fishbowl
05:31:24 [docwolf]
med. biz school was like a vacation.
05:31:46 [docwolf]
we only had like 120 people in my med school class, so it was a really bad idea.
05:32:05 [talli]
where did you go to med school?
05:32:14 [docwolf]
university of michigan
05:32:21 [docwolf]
we started with 150 people
05:32:22 [talli]
and for biz?
05:32:27 [docwolf]
michigan.
05:32:33 [talli]
and undergrad?
05:32:44 [docwolf]
state university of NY @ binghamton
05:33:07 [talli]
ah, ok.
05:33:20 [talli]
i was wondering why you weren't a raving wolverine fan
05:33:38 [docwolf]
the novely wore off after like 5 years.
05:33:48 [docwolf]
after a while, football saturday just meant more traffic
05:33:53 [talli]
:)
05:33:56 [talli]
what about bball?
05:34:08 [docwolf]
michigan bball has totally sucked for most of the 1990s
05:34:15 [docwolf]
hockey is currently the other big thing
05:34:26 [docwolf]
hockey games are a blast
05:34:33 [vinod]
hockey was my favorite sport to watch in madison
05:34:54 [docwolf]
it was great. the people were like animals.
05:35:15 [docwolf]
something about the midwest and hockey... normally reserved people get nutty.
05:35:45 [vinod]
haha
05:36:09 [talli]
it's all the dairy
05:37:02 [talli]
ok guys, speak with you tomorrow
05:37:04 [talli]
have a good night
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05:37:06 [docwolf]
l8r
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05:51:29 [rzolf]
uh oh.
05:51:56 [docwolf]
yowza
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14:06:15 [til]
anybody know freezope.org? (it's down right now)
14:06:50 [davb]
nope
14:07:15 [til]
they give you a free zope installation to play around with it
14:07:47 [til]
with its own subdomain, like tilsplayground.freezope.org
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14:08:51 [til]
A friend of mine has set up a poll there, so naturally i wrote a little ballotstuffing script, and voted like 100 times, now the whole site is down ;-)
14:10:50 [davb]
cool. That is neat.
14:11:10 [davb]
the free zope installation is a great idea. Now we need someone to do that for OpenACS :)
14:11:29 [til]
yeah
14:12:43 [davb]
uhoh, did I just volunteer? :)
14:15:28 [markd2]
sounds like it to me!
14:19:06 [davb]
ack.
14:19:24 [davb]
It will be a little tight on my 256mb ram AMD k6-500
14:20:51 [til]
i think its more of a challenge then free zope installations ... you would have to run a lot of aolserver processes in parallel, which take a lot of resources
14:21:16 [davb]
yes it sure does.
14:21:52 [davb]
one thing would be to limit each setup to a certain small number of threads.
14:21:53 [til]
also to make it real useful you would have to provide shell access ... or some other way to alter files in the installation
14:21:59 [davb]
yes.
14:22:20 [davb]
does freezope only allow web access to Zope?
14:22:28 [til]
i think so, yes
14:22:34 [davb]
ah.
14:22:37 [til]
now there is no access at all ... ;-)
14:22:44 [davb]
heh
14:22:52 [til]
i'll mail the webmaster
14:27:10 [til]
ironically the poll was about "what's the future: zope, openacs, php, jsp ...". Of course my script selected openacs - seems like the system wanted to protect itself from that
14:27:23 [davb]
heh
14:27:47 [davb]
hopefully in the future there will be choices just like now.
14:27:49 [davb]
:)
14:28:01 [davb]
I like OpenACS but its kinda big for a little personal site.
14:28:16 [markd2]
you just need a bigger machine :-)
14:28:49 [davb]
aha
14:28:53 [davb]
that explains alot.
14:33:39 [davb]
wow, the host node map can map to any URL, not just a subsite package instance.
14:33:40 [davb]
cool.
14:34:06 [davb]
except now I have to wait for the DNS to propagate to test it.
14:34:49 [til]
davb: is the target url still unique? last time i looked you couldn't poing bla.com and www.bla.com to the same url i think
14:35:27 [davb]
I am not sure. I used dave.deepskydesign.com and test.deepskydesign.com
14:35:33 [davb]
let me see what the admin page says...
14:37:38 [davb]
I have deepskydesign.com and dave.deepskydesign.com attached to / now. but I can't test it quite yet :)
14:37:54 [davb]
(actually that will definitely break. deepskydesign.com already goes somwhere else)
14:38:07 [davb]
but it lets me assign it anyway.
14:38:08 [til]
you can edit your /etc/hosts file to test it
14:38:17 [davb]
aha.
14:39:03 [davb]
if I edit etc/hosts does it "just work"? or do I need to reload something? :)
14:39:16 [markd2]
it should just work
14:39:20 [davb]
hmmm.
14:39:31 [til]
you can test it with ping or something
14:39:51 [davb]
I think my resolv.conf is misconfigured for it to work...
14:41:12 [til]
try to assign a third hostname to / - that won't work. grr
14:41:15 [davb]
oops nm :)
14:41:36 [davb]
til you really want multiple host names to the same URL?
14:42:25 [til]
at least domain.com and www.domain.com
14:42:47 [davb]
for /? Just do that in DNS and use ForceHostP
14:43:04 [davb]
I don't think that works for any other URL though...
14:45:29 [til]
yeah, in case you want virtual.com and www.virtual.com to map to /virtual
14:47:04 [davb]
til: aha. I can imagine myself needing that. i am planning on putting at least two small sites on one OpenACS install so they can use templating and ETP
14:47:42 [til]
also it fails with an ugly 500 if you try that. i'll put that in sdm
14:48:25 [davb]
the search indexer REALLY puts alot of crap in the log.
14:49:03 [davb]
aha. the host-node map doesn't allow duplicates. weird.
14:49:40 [til]
* til writes an apology to the webmaster of freezope.org, who discovered that my email came from the same netblock as the script was run that crashed their site
14:50:05 [markd2]
oops
14:50:27 [markd2]
that's why you should enlist skr1pt k1ddi3s to do that work for you
14:50:35 [til]
horrible failure in the script kiddie exam
14:50:41 [til]
yeah
14:52:08 [davb]
til: I think another column is needed is the host node map for the canonical host name for each URL so it can redirect if it finds one of the others. forcehostp for subsites. although it should work without it.
14:53:15 [til]
good idea
14:58:01 [davb]
uhoh, did I volunteer again?
14:58:08 [davb]
* davb keeps his mouth shut!
14:58:36 [davb]
I am also getting myself into trouble on the bboard right now...
15:00:07 [davb]
:)
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dead-man-walking is now known as dlk
16:22:24 [dlk]
dlk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:33:25 [talli]
talli (~user@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #openacs
16:35:24 [davb]
hi talli
16:37:26 [talli]
hey davb. interesting thread about keywords
16:39:59 [davb]
yes. there is alot that can be done with it. but it needs to be well thought out so we only have to rewrite it once :)
16:40:26 [davb]
and I am not the person to do that. I basically have no clue what a good design is.
16:40:52 [talli]
yeah. i thought he made a good point about functionality vs complexity
16:41:06 [talli]
some people are making noise that OACS is way too complex right now
16:41:30 [davb]
It really is not. you don;t need to KNOW all of that to use it. I only know how the parts of the code I touched work.
16:41:34 [talli]
others may think in order to gain some of the functions of other apps we need to go in their directions
16:41:37 [davb]
But I can build a site with it.
16:41:52 [talli]
yeah, then there are those that are fine with it :)
16:42:02 [davb]
We need a better admin UI.
16:42:05 [davb]
Next release :)
16:42:23 [davb]
Neophytos has some really good ideas on how to standardize across the system.
16:42:28 [talli]
but there are some who really liked the old way of getting their hands right into the db tables rather than going through the CR or acs_objects
16:42:33 [davb]
that will help tremendously.
16:42:39 [davb]
talli: they can use OpenACS 3 :)
16:43:00 [davb]
That is better for hacking togther a bunch of unrelated code.
16:43:27 [davb]
but to build a usable system than can be easily extended OACS 4 is much better.
16:43:28 [talli]
yeah, that's true. but it's also really ugly
16:43:56 [davb]
The service contract stuff really changes how the different packages will intereact.
16:44:12 [davb]
I think over the year we will end up with a much different system.
16:44:24 [davb]
with the underlying data model from ACS.
16:44:44 [talli]
yeah, i agree. i've spoken with neophytos about some of his ideas and they sound great
16:45:54 [talli]
personally, i'm going to make three things my personal mission:
16:46:00 [davb]
one thing I am curious about is the other toolkits communities. i.e. I have practically no programming experience, yet I am a member of the team.
16:46:01 [talli]
1) helping with the docs so that they are readable
16:46:22 [talli]
2) getting someone to code some o fhte debugging tools
16:46:27 [talli]
3) get webDAV support :)
16:46:34 [davb]
talli: excellent goals.
16:46:43 [davb]
BTW, have you ever seen Radio Userland?
16:46:50 [davb]
its an interesting desktop tool.
16:46:54 [talli]
well, to tell you the truth, i didn't know you don't have any dev expereince
16:47:01 [davb]
:)
16:47:05 [davb]
well I have some now.
16:47:06 [talli]
i mean, neither does vinod, and you both fake it pretty well
16:47:20 [talli]
no, i haven't used radio userland, although it seems really cool
16:47:25 [davb]
right. what I mean is we can fit in with DonB, DanW, etc...
16:48:17 [davb]
If you produce code, you are accepted in out community. If the code needs work, they help you with it, make suggestions etc...
16:48:25 [talli]
yeah, the great thing about the OACS community is a mega-programmer like donb is willing to accept and work with anyone that is committed to helping
16:48:31 [davb]
s/out/our
16:48:37 [davb]
right
16:48:55 [talli]
the thing about userland stuff is that they have great ideas but i've heard they don't implement it so well
16:49:57 [davb]
yes. well the first version was cool, but practiaclly unusable. the new release sounds really nice. I haven;t tried it yet.
16:49:58 [talli]
i don't really trust winer, but he certainly is on the cutting edge of thinking how to let apps collaborate
16:50:29 [davb]
Anyway, its a great thing to check out to get ideas of how a desktop writing app can connect with the web.
16:50:55 [talli]
what does the new one do?
16:51:17 [davb]
basically the same thing, it just does it well. I will tell you more after I actually install it :)
16:51:38 [davb]
Also, it has a built in scripting language so it can be extended.
16:52:10 [talli]
:)
16:52:18 [talli]
is frontier any good, though?
16:52:41 [davb]
Frontier is an interesting environment. I would say it is not a great scalable web server and database though.
16:52:58 [davb]
But it is supposedly easy to learn.
16:53:08 [talli]
yeah, scalability is what i've heard about
16:53:26 [talli]
john sequiera (another uber-coder) has used it, and built his site in userland
16:53:32 [talli]
he says it's nice for little CMS sites
16:53:38 [davb]
yes.
16:55:41 [talli]
do you know of any commercial company that offers full BSD support, other than wasabi? (http://www.wasabisystems.com)
16:55:47 [talli]
thinking mostly of freebsd
16:56:30 [davb]
sorry.
16:56:59 [talli]
weird that no one does
16:57:08 [talli]
at least not like RH or Suse
16:57:29 [talli]
i wonder if it's because freebsd only really runs on x86
16:57:52 [davb]
could be, but really most people use that for servers.
16:58:25 [davb]
I would guess most Linux companies advocate for x86 hardware...
16:58:34 [talli]
true. but if you're a big enterprise (where the money really is) then you probably buy a sun, HP or IBM mainframe
16:58:40 [talli]
which linux supports
16:58:44 [davb]
yes I could see that.
16:58:54 [djg]
djg has left #openacs
16:59:05 [davb]
or Sun or Compaq. thats about it for "big iron" :)
16:59:22 [davb]
but they run Linix too.
17:00:08 [talli]
right
17:00:15 [talli]
netbsd runs on those, though, but it doesn't seem to have the following yet
17:00:25 [davb]
I am just a little web services for small business (very small) kinda guy :)
17:00:47 [davb]
netBSD is only popular I think for web and other internet servers.
17:01:22 [davb]
I want to look into running multiple small sites with one OpenACS and one postgresql database.
17:01:23 [talli]
yeah. and the fact that AOLserver can't run on it yet because of thread issues probably means that it's still maturing
17:01:40 [davb]
i see.
17:01:42 [talli]
but from what i've heard, it's the best one out there in terms of its core architecture
17:01:50 [davb]
FreeBSD?
17:01:53 [talli]
supposed to be beautiful and very clean
17:01:56 [talli]
netbsd
17:02:02 [davb]
Ah.
17:03:02 [talli]
i know a netbsd developer, and he's quite good. he's also fanatical about netbsd and GOOD (TM) operating systems
17:03:11 [davb]
netBSD runs on every platform I have seen :)
17:03:25 [talli]
his site is: http://www.sixgirls.org check out what the webserver platform is
17:03:39 [talli]
mike adler, who hangs around here once in a while, introduced me to him
17:04:15 [davb]
aha. i remember. very good.
17:04:35 [davb]
Which BSD is the super secure one?
17:04:43 [talli]
you see what he's running his site (and i think his isp) from?
17:04:45 [talli]
openbsd
17:05:04 [talli]
which is ironic since it's supposed to be the most closed in terms of security :)
17:05:21 [davb]
talli: thanks.
17:05:46 [talli]
and i hear that the lead developer is a wacko, too. which i imagine he would have to be in order to start a project that is so fanatically secure
17:05:52 [talli]
he's probably a militia man
17:05:52 [davb]
So netbsd looks very promising.
17:06:01 [davb]
and i super portable.
17:06:02 [talli]
yeah, netbsd runs on EVERYTHING
17:06:15 [talli]
i guess each bsd project has a certain goal
17:06:19 [davb]
Which is OS X/Darwin based on? FreeBSD?
17:06:29 [talli]
freebsd's goal is to be the ultra-server on x86
17:06:30 [davb]
yes. kinda like the different Linux distributions.
17:06:43 [davb]
Psychephylax: you awake or around?
17:06:46 [talli]
(OSX/darwin is a mix of free and net)
17:06:52 [davb]
but the Linuxes are more closely related.
17:06:53 [talli]
netbsd is to be super portable
17:06:59 [talli]
and openbsd is to be super secure
17:07:30 [davb]
talli: are you looking to see if there is a better platform for OpenACS or just generally looking?
17:07:39 [talli]
i fear linux, to be honest
17:08:06 [talli]
i know that this will bring the rath of others, but i fear it because it's a bit of a mess
17:08:42 [davb]
interesting. I know is a mess, but it seems to work well.
17:08:59 [talli]
the 2.4.15 kernel fiasco was too horrible, as bad as anything MS ever put out. it was solved quickly, but still
17:09:04 [talli]
yeah, it works really well.
17:09:13 [davb]
yes, that was a big problem.
17:09:22 [talli]
but, for instance, there is a really great ISP in NYC called Panix
17:09:30 [talli]
(http://www.panix.com)
17:09:35 [davb]
of course, important servers aren;t upgraded to the newest kernel the same day its released :)
17:09:42 [talli]
davb: that's true
17:10:05 [talli]
but panix is run by some super clued in sysadmins
17:10:24 [talli]
they have a whole bunch of different machines running, from old sun boxes to quad xeons
17:10:39 [talli]
becuase they want to have a single OS enviro, they run netbsd across all of them
17:11:09 [davb]
right.
17:11:37 [talli]
also, one of the issues with linux is that each distro has its own directory structure, many of which are non-standard. so if you're a sysadmin, you need to remember and be familiar with how each distro is set up
17:11:46 [talli]
no, we collo there
17:11:52 [davb]
ah.
17:11:52 [talli]
they wouldn't host our stuff
17:11:52 [davb]
ok.
17:12:17 [davb]
talli: there are really only two directory structures... and smart software can figure it out...
17:12:23 [rzolf]
rzolf (~rolf@67.32.238.80) has joined #openacs
17:12:27 [talli]
that's true
17:12:38 [talli]
but with a BSD, it's the same across each distro
17:12:41 [rzolf]
rzolf has left #openacs
17:12:49 [davb]
ah. they are smarter.
17:13:40 [talli]
check out rolf's troll post about linux vs. bsd. i'll get it for you
17:13:59 [talli]
"troll" is docwolf's word for it. not mine :)
17:15:24 [davb]
ok. brb
17:15:38 [talli]
(http://www.spatula.net/proc/linux/index.src)
17:17:49 [talli]
many of the items in this list are old or out of date
17:18:51 [talli]
but the points about the general linux community, non-standard approaches and how other things work are a little too true
17:20:47 [davb]
some. alot of it isn't necessarily a big problem though. Plenty of software can compile on Linux nad BSD, but it requires them to do work in the configure scripts and makefiles.
17:22:16 [davb]
Basically it depends on your point of view. It's probably good to know both :)
17:23:19 [talli]
yeah, but this is what bothers me: To install Joe's program, you need Bob's kernel hack, but for Bob's kernel hack, you've got to have Suzy's patches, but Suzy's patches only work with a year-old kernel, unless you get Mike's patches to Suzy's patches, but even then, those conflict with Jeff's drivers, which can be resolved onl
17:23:19 [talli]
by installing Nancy's patches...
17:23:47 [talli]
uh, and this: Testing? What's that? If it compiles, it is good, if it boots up, i
17:23:47 [talli]
is perfect.
17:23:47 [talli]
-- Linus Torvalds
17:23:52 [davb]
and BSD solves ALL of those problems?
17:23:58 [davb]
heh
17:24:33 [talli]
i've read some of linus' comments, and they truly are defined by that
17:24:40 [davb]
I sometimes have trouble comopiling little crappy applications, but AOLserver, Postgresql, etc.. work fine all the time.
17:24:40 [talli]
that's cool, because he's been consistent throughout.
17:24:50 [davb]
right. you know what you are getting.
17:24:53 [talli]
he still considers linux a hobby
17:25:12 [davb]
How much is he in it?
17:25:28 [talli]
that's fine, but i don't know if i want to run my client's mission critical apps on his hobby OS
17:25:35 [davb]
There are alot of people who don't just do it for a hobby, IBM?
17:25:44 [talli]
he still maintains final decision on kernel commits
17:25:52 [talli]
yeah, and RH and Suse and many others
17:26:15 [davb]
The testing might occur after Linus see its, but it has been tested.
17:27:17 [davb]
go with OS X :)
17:27:23 [davb]
if they had decent server hardware....
17:27:24 [talli]
i want to. badly
17:27:31 [talli]
they do, from what i hear
17:27:42 [talli]
i heard that the threading problem is OSX is solved raelly nicely
17:27:45 [davb]
Apple? Only up to 2 processors.
17:27:55 [davb]
and nothing that fits in a rack...
17:28:00 [talli]
yeah, but two really powerful processors
17:28:07 [davb]
that is true.
17:28:38 [davb]
But they are super fast a floating point stuff. For a database server you need memory bandwidth.
17:28:42 [talli]
anyway, i don't really know anything about the technical arguments between BSD and linux
17:28:53 [davb]
* davb looks
17:29:31 [davb]
I think there is more cultural difference between BSD and Linux, the technical difference is between Windows 2000 and anyNix
17:29:42 [talli]
for me, it's more a question of the reliability of a server. if my sysadmin is good and the server ain't going down, i don't care. but i do fear linux.
17:29:53 [talli]
yeah, you're right
17:30:25 [talli]
i once saw a /. sig that was: BSD is for people that love Unix. Linux is for people that hate Microsoft
17:30:43 [davb]
Apple servers are not up to date on memory technology.... too bad. maybe in the summer.
17:30:44 [davb]
heh
17:30:48 [til]
til has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
17:31:11 [davb]
I'll have to try BSD. I really like Linux with Xfce. the desktop is super fast.
17:31:21 [davb]
only think is font display...
17:31:28 [davb]
and no graphics apps.
17:31:42 [davb]
So I am steering towards and iMac for that stuff...
17:32:22 [Psychephylax]
i miss ya guys :)
17:32:29 [Psychephylax]
so much work..soooo much work
17:32:34 [davb]
good :)
17:32:34 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax wanders off again
17:33:07 [davb]
* davb wonders where everyone except talli is...
17:33:20 [vinod]
vinod (~vinod@209-122-236-118.s1991.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs
17:33:26 [davb]
aha
17:33:31 [davb]
excellent timing vinod!
17:33:47 [vinod]
uhoh
17:33:50 [vinod]
i didn't do it
17:33:55 [davb]
heh
17:34:58 [vinod]
* vinod scans the log
17:35:42 [vinod]
ahhh... i had a telepathic sensation that my presence was required here :-)
17:38:01 [talli]
brb
17:48:23 [abbaJ]
abbaJ has quit ("Client Exiting")
17:49:29 [markd2]
* markd2 catches up
17:57:52 [rzolf]
rzolf (~rolf@67.32.238.80) has joined #openacs
17:58:31 [markd2]
* markd2 pours ketchup on rzolf
17:59:30 [davb]
you forgot the pepper
17:59:45 [rzolf]
bitchX won't compile properly on OSX
18:00:01 [markd2]
you need bitch/OSX
18:00:24 [rzolf]
i need to quit AIM totally.
18:00:30 [rzolf]
i'm down to two "buddies"
18:05:41 [rzolf]
ircii is a junkpile.
18:09:28 [rzolf]
rzolf has quit ("Leaving")
18:17:53 [miguel]
miguel (~miguel25@cancerbero.unileon.es) has joined #openacs
18:18:05 [miguel]
hi guys!!
18:18:10 [davb]
hello miguel
18:18:17 [miguel]
how are you doing?
18:18:24 [miguel]
i would like to ask you something
18:19:39 [miguel]
during xmas break someone (roberto maybe) told me that there were people working on a beginner guide for OACS
18:19:57 [miguel]
i am wondering if there is any web page where this info can be accesible
18:20:13 [davb]
ask vinod: he is writing it :)
18:20:25 [davb]
well he is writing the install guide I think...
18:21:50 [miguel]
but is there any web site?
18:22:41 [vinod]
hi miguel. i'm working on the install guide. it's at http://kurup.com/acs/openacs4/
18:23:01 [vinod]
there's also going to be a separate beginner's guide, but i'm not working on it
18:23:18 [vinod]
there's more info on documentation status here: http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/one-file?file_id=270
18:24:49 [miguel]
many thanks for the info
18:25:10 [vinod]
no problem
18:26:25 [miguel]
vinod are you in the states?
18:27:25 [vinod]
yup, in boston, massachusetts
18:27:45 [miguel]
in the MIT?
18:28:23 [vinod]
no, i work there as a physician sometimes, but i do my web-development from home
18:29:31 [miguel]
ok must be difficult to join the MIt
18:31:40 [talli]
miguel: are you interested in working on the beginner's guide?
18:32:16 [miguel]
talli: i am now working on the psets using OACS 3.x
18:32:37 [miguel]
changing the docs for using it with PG and OACS
18:32:42 [talli]
ah, i see.
18:32:46 [talli]
why on v3?
18:32:58 [miguel]
besides doing a solution doc
18:33:02 [miguel]
for those psets
18:33:56 [talli]
but v3 have been done already, to a great degree
18:34:06 [talli]
did you mention to him that v4 hasn't been picked up yet?
18:34:38 [talli]
no, no one has picked up the v4 psets yet
18:34:50 [talli]
and there's really very little that will have to be ported to v4 from v3
18:34:57 [talli]
in fact, it'
18:35:19 [talli]
in fact, it's almost impossible to do so without a complete rewrite since the systems are so different
18:36:00 [talli]
(http://www.ma.utexas.edu/~toddg/docs/psets/
18:36:14 [talli]
http://www.ma.utexas.edu/~toddg/docs/psets/
18:36:14 [chump]
A: http://www.ma.utexas.edu/~toddg/docs/psets/ from talli
18:36:21 [vinod]
i think i remember miguel and rbm having this same discussion a few weeks ago :-)
18:36:31 [talli]
beattiek: ToddG's ported psets to PG
18:36:46 [talli]
i think i had this discussion with miguel, too :)
18:36:57 [talli]
there's really no need to port more than the first two psets
18:37:10 [talli]
the other 3 are kind of a waste of time, to be honest
18:37:16 [vinod]
i like pset5
18:37:24 [talli]
and who likes you vinod?
18:37:31 [vinod]
talli loves me!
18:37:38 [talli]
true enough. true enough.
18:37:43 [vinod]
haha
18:38:09 [talli]
miguel: it's probably best that you work on the v4 psets
18:38:26 [talli]
v3 and v4 are so different that you would have to almost relearn the system
18:40:42 [vinod]
the first 2 psets "teach" general web-development knowledge that most people should learn
18:40:42 [talli]
you would know PG, AOLserver and tcl very well, but the architecture of v4 and v3 are very different
18:40:42 [talli]
who's your coord?
18:40:42 [talli]
is he involved in the community?
18:40:42 [talli]
yeah, that's usually what people not invovled in the community think. it's plenty stable. we've built many production system susing it
18:40:42 [vinod]
i haven't looked at pset 3 or 4 much, but pset 5 only adds teaching about "connect by" tree commands in oracle (not really generally useful)
18:40:42 [talli]
the only thing that IS missing is documentation, like the psets :)
18:41:07 [talli]
and v3 is a total mess. the standard by which v4 is being held in terms of stability and release is much much higher than what v3 ever had
18:42:03 [talli]
sure.
18:42:13 [talli]
but it might take you twice the amount of time
18:44:23 [talli]
talk to Psychephylax :)
18:46:14 [talli]
great!
18:46:16 [talli]
congrats
18:46:44 [talli]
that's usually the best way to start :)
18:47:50 [talli]
did i recommend to push your mom for a gig? wow. i'm smart :)
18:47:59 [talli]
what did i say?
18:48:04 [talli]
are you listening vinod?
18:48:10 [talli]
someone is speaking well of my wisdom
18:48:51 [vinod]
shoot. i wasn't listening
18:49:16 [talli]
yeah, usually jumping into the fire is the best way to learn things. it's also the best way to make mistakes. but that's only bad if you don't learn from them.
18:49:39 [miguel]
;)
18:49:57 [talli]
true enough.
18:50:17 [talli]
hey vinod, did you learn from that mistake that resulted in that unfortunate lobotomy?
18:50:36 [vinod]
well, i didn't need all that brain anyway
18:50:52 [talli]
miguel: just don't make the system too bad. you'll need them for a reference later when you want to charge someone $100/hr
18:50:56 [vinod]
* vinod has learned not to do self-lobotomy again
18:53:13 [vinod]
good luck miguel
18:53:19 [miguel]
thanks
18:53:33 [miguel]
miguel has quit ()
19:24:20 [talli]
talli has left #openacs
19:56:27 [davb]
* davb waits for beta...
19:57:11 [davb]
* davb wonders if rbm is available...
19:57:22 [davb]
but he probably should read the documentation docs first...
20:00:47 [vinod]
davb: do you remember if you had to do some symlinking (of the tcl libraries) to get the openfts search driver to compile on debian?
20:01:12 [davb]
vinod: yes. if you install the Tcl package...
20:01:19 [davb]
no, wait...
20:01:28 [davb]
I think you can just specify it when you ./configure
20:01:40 [vinod]
using --with-tcl, right?
20:01:43 [davb]
I had to specify the aolserver dir, postgresql dir and tcldir to make it work.
20:01:55 [davb]
I knew I should have written it down :)
20:02:02 [vinod]
np
20:02:05 [vinod]
i got it to work
20:02:13 [davb]
excellent,
20:02:16 [vinod]
but i just wanted to make sure i wasn't doing extra steps
20:02:21 [davb]
I think last tiem I did symlink some stuff.
20:02:28 [vinod]
cuz i'm gonna put it in the docs
20:02:34 [davb]
the makefile needs to be tweaked to work better with debian.
20:02:40 [davb]
cool!
20:04:41 [davb]
vinod: I think it will work if you just specify the 3 withs.
20:05:50 [davb]
it seems to :) I just tried again,
20:06:56 [vinod]
yeah - it worked that way for me to. (actually didn't need to pg with, since my it looks at /usr/local/pgsql by default)
20:07:02 [vinod]
thanks dave!
20:08:14 [davb]
np. I knew there was something I wanted to save to help people out :)
20:08:30 [davb]
the other steps in the openfts-driver install are all the same.
20:10:25 [talli]
talli (talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs
20:12:06 [vinod]
vinod has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
20:12:06 [markd2]
markd2 has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
20:17:16 [vinod]
vinod (~vinod@209-122-236-118.s1991.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #OpenACS
20:17:16 [markd2]
markd2 (~Snak@r-41.129.alltel.net) has joined #OpenACS
20:17:36 [davb]
hi talli.
20:17:48 [davb]
is anything changing in the ETP datamodel?
20:20:40 [davb]
brb
20:20:44 [davb]
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20:47:14 [davb]
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21:21:17 [davb]
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21:26:33 [rzolf]
rzolf (~rolf@67.32.238.80) has joined #openacs
21:26:50 [rzolf]
totally useless dorks on #python.
21:28:44 [vinod]
i knew there would be something that i didn't like about python ;-)
21:28:55 [rzolf]
ugh.
21:29:02 [vinod]
we may not be useful, but we're not dorks
21:29:55 [vinod]
* vinod waits expectantly for someone to contradict him on point #2
21:33:43 [rzolf]
* rzolf enters rant mode.
21:35:45 [rzolf]
so the docs on this webware thing
21:35:48 [rzolf]
are inaccurate
21:35:53 [rzolf]
there is no irc channel
21:36:02 [rzolf]
they have a stupid "Wiki" instead of a forum.
21:36:07 [vinod]
ugh
21:36:27 [markd2]
wiki! wiki! wiki!
21:36:30 [vinod]
i always have trouble finding stuff on wikis
21:36:43 [markd2]
* markd2 is proud to be a dork
21:36:51 [markd2]
I like wikis for just random "goof-off:" browsing
21:36:54 [vinod]
yeah, but markd2's not useless
21:37:04 [vinod]
markd2: me too - like wikipedia
21:37:05 [markd2]
at least, not yet. muahahahaha
21:37:06 [rzolf]
dorks are ok. but slashdorks are not.
21:37:08 [markd2]
uh... never mind
21:37:14 [markd2]
slashborks
21:37:21 [rzolf]
borkbots.
21:37:22 [markd2]
I'm still wearing pants
21:37:47 [vinod]
is markd2 transitioning to skirts now too?
21:38:06 [markd2]
it nearly kilt me
21:38:11 [vinod]
lol
21:39:50 [rzolf]
all documentation is lies.
21:39:51 [rzolf]
lies
21:39:54 [rzolf]
LIES
21:40:10 [vinod]
* vinod is writing documentation right now (muahahaha)
21:40:18 [rzolf]
nooooo
21:41:22 [talli]
talli has quit ("later later later")
21:42:09 [rzolf]
* rzolf considers a career in the navy.
21:42:24 [vinod]
you can sail the seven seas!
21:42:37 [rzolf]
that's a different sort of navy altogether.
21:42:42 [vinod]
haha
21:42:47 [jim]
but can you see the seven sails?
21:43:14 [vinod]
i wasn't sure how close you and docwolf were getting
21:43:44 [rzolf]
well, we are roommates, and like to drive to the gym together in our miata.
21:44:18 [rzolf]
and my mother cries herself to sleep at night.
21:44:24 [rzolf]
and my father "has no son"
21:44:28 [vinod]
lol
21:44:37 [vinod]
yeah, but all mothers and fathers do that
21:44:41 [vinod]
... right?
21:44:53 [rzolf]
but the latter two are mainly due to my decision to enter the lucrative field of software engineering.
21:45:01 [vinod]
haha
21:45:09 [vinod]
same here
21:45:22 [jim]
as opposed to?
21:45:29 [rzolf]
medicine.
21:45:32 [vinod]
this doctor thing
21:45:34 [jim]
ahh
21:46:06 [rzolf]
but my mom was right.
21:46:30 [rzolf]
at least when someone hears you are a doctor
21:46:38 [markd2]
it really did fall off?
21:46:51 [rzolf]
images of like...george clooney (or trapper john) materialize in their head.
21:47:06 [rzolf]
when someone hears you are a computer programmer....images of "dilbert" appear in their head.
21:47:09 [vinod]
or doogie howser
21:47:23 [markd2]
"Vinod Kurup, M.D. Studly Surgeon"
21:48:02 [vinod]
haha
21:48:25 [rzolf]
anyway.
21:48:39 [jim]
"Extracurricular activities: Played doctor. a LOT."
21:48:43 [rzolf]
documentation sucks.
21:49:05 [markd2]
ju5T uze th' k0D3 m4n.
21:49:53 [rzolf]
i have been using the code. its like the sysadmin-y style crap that doesnt work.
21:50:02 [rzolf]
which is frustrating.
21:50:19 [rzolf]
"to initialize library, set bla bla = ['foo']"
21:50:36 [rzolf]
* rzolf sets bla bla = ['foo']
21:50:48 [rzolf]
"SYNTAX ERROR!"
21:51:20 [markd2]
set_variables_after_query
21:51:25 [rzolf]
hahah.
21:51:26 [markd2]
DoubleApos!!
21:51:41 [rzolf]
everyone on #python is talking about getting drunk and coding in haskell.
21:51:51 [rzolf]
what a sad reality i exist in.
21:51:54 [vinod]
haha
21:52:11 [markd2]
the folks in #java are griping about missing LISP features
21:52:15 [rzolf]
ugh.
21:52:21 [markd2]
or else they're asking newbie questions about C and pointers
21:52:26 [vinod]
here we talk about sobering up and coding in fortran
21:52:27 [rzolf]
what on earth
21:52:38 [rzolf]
oh markd2. remember "boonga ga"
21:52:52 [markd2]
not off the top of my head
21:53:03 [rzolf]
oh its that video game in japan where you poke the butt console.
21:53:15 [markd2]
oh yeah
21:53:28 [rzolf]
so on #python the other day, instead of talking about being drunk and coding in haskell.
21:53:32 [docwolf]
i'm getting nervous here, folks..
21:53:40 [rzolf]
everyone was talking about lewd video games
21:53:57 [rzolf]
like that one evil old atari 2600 game "custer's revenge"
21:54:01 [markd2]
heh
21:54:09 [markd2]
Cluster's Revenge
21:54:17 [rzolf]
so i pipe up with "oh yeah check this out...boonga ga"
21:54:31 [rzolf]
and everyone was like "rzolf...that is totally sick. you are disgusting"
21:54:38 [vinod]
lol
21:54:40 [rzolf]
and no one answered my questions.
21:55:34 [rzolf]
it was weird.
21:55:57 [rzolf]
its kinda like when you go into the #openacs channel and everyone gets mad about the off-topic python discussion you are trying to start up.
21:55:58 [markd2]
well, you ar totally sick and disgusting
21:56:04 [markd2]
that's why we "love" you
21:56:32 [rzolf]
no i'm actually a really nice and normal person, but i'm like a magnet for filth and depravity.
21:56:37 [vinod]
haha
21:56:47 [vinod]
people like markd2 are just drawn to you
21:56:49 [docwolf]
hey, i resemble that remark
21:56:51 [rzolf]
haha
21:56:54 [rzolf]
or docwolf.
21:57:07 [markd2]
rzolf is starting to nudge out philg in the quotes file
21:57:09 [rzolf]
and his online herbal viagra clinic.
21:57:22 [docwolf]
don't reveal the secret!
21:57:25 [rzolf]
oops.
21:57:26 [vinod]
aha - the truth is out
21:57:40 [rzolf]
i still think we should get into that dong cream advertised on the radio.
21:57:47 [docwolf]
haha
21:57:49 [vinod]
lol
21:57:55 [rzolf]
i mean, really "get into it" if you know what i mean.
21:57:56 [markd2]
oh my
21:58:23 [rzolf]
that was actually sort of odd, because i dont think that kind of radio ad would get aired in MN.
21:58:51 [rzolf]
(there was some radio ad about "male enhancement cream" on the local radio)
21:58:51 [docwolf]
but they wouldn't say "penis".. it was always "male tissues"
21:59:19 [docwolf]
as if the wackos who are listening to AM radio at 3:00 in the morning would care
21:59:29 [rzolf]
i care.
21:59:53 [docwolf]
hehe.. what was the name of that stuff
21:59:59 [rzolf]
can't remember.
22:00:04 [vinod]
see. rzolf cares
22:00:26 [rzolf]
markd2: is the "awake respond sleep" pattern a standard thing?
22:01:00 [markd2]
if it's what I think it is, then yeah
22:01:07 [rzolf]
it is what you think it is.
22:01:08 [markd2]
that's how the aolclerver tcl connection thread thingies work
22:01:15 [rzolf]
cool.
22:11:29 [rzolf]
whats a good php blog package? (aesbestos suit: on)
22:11:54 [markd2]
I wouldn't know
22:12:07 [markd2]
there's a #php
22:12:15 [markd2]
they're probably arguing about FORTH
22:12:30 [rzolf]
i don't even want to know.
22:12:35 [vinod]
haha
22:12:44 [rzolf]
actually i think on #python they WERE arguing about forth.
22:12:53 [rzolf]
or was that here?
22:13:11 [rzolf]
somewhere someone was rambling on about how cool open firmware is. (?)
22:13:21 [markd2]
oy
22:13:55 [markd2]
maybe they need that cream stuff
22:14:26 [rzolf]
cream can't help someone excited about open firmware.
22:14:41 [vinod]
but it converts firmware to hardware
22:15:19 [rzolf]
erf.
22:15:26 [vinod]
bu-dum-bum *BING*
22:15:33 [rzolf]
is flaccidware.com available?
22:15:58 [vinod]
haha - nope it's taken
22:16:03 [rzolf]
whoa.
22:17:11 [markd2]
nothing there, though
22:18:31 [markd2]
"Legal lingo was
22:18:31 [markd2]
amusing to me too, until i read through a few contracts and got a taste of
22:18:31 [markd2]
what coma must be like.
22:18:31 [markd2]
"
22:46:50 [denshi]
denshi (~chatzilla@adsl-216-62-223-193.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs
22:47:51 [talli]
talli (talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs
22:48:17 [denshi]
HOW ARE YOU GENTLEMEN!
22:48:32 [talli]
decent
22:48:35 [markd2]
* markd2 looks around for gentlemen
22:48:50 [denshi]
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO SOMEONE WHO WON'T RETURN MY CALLS.
22:49:01 [markd2]
what you say!
22:49:07 [vinod]
* vinod scrambles to returns denshi's call
22:49:26 [denshi]
hah! vinod has the bases! Quick, I need a plane.
22:50:53 [denshi]
"badger blogging, across the universe, boldly clicking forward 'cause we can't find reverse!" etc
22:50:59 [markd2]
heh
22:51:16 [markd2]
there's klingons on the starbord bow, starbord, barbord bow... better scrape them off
22:51:34 [denshi]
It's HTML Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it browser...
22:51:58 [talli]
* talli is sorry he mised the boonga ga discussion
22:52:09 [markd2]
rzolf will be happy to demonstrate
22:52:28 [rzolf]
it is kinda like that whack a mole game.
22:52:41 [rzolf]
but there are no moles.
22:52:48 [rzolf]
and no whacking.
22:53:23 [markd2]
well, "whacking" in a literal sense
22:54:01 [talli]
i saw goatse.cx for the first time last night
22:54:24 [markd2]
heh
22:54:26 [talli]
i certainly did not whack on that. although i almost sent out an internet whack to docwolf who suggested the link
22:55:07 [rzolf]
how can i watch avis on OS X?
22:55:20 [markd2]
sounds like it'll hertz
22:55:38 [markd2]
I think ther's windows media player for X
22:55:58 [talli]
can't quicktime read avis?
22:56:01 [rzolf]
* rzolf hears the internal price is right "losing foghorn" noise.
22:56:29 [talli]
well, you still get to spin the wheel... so not all is bad!
22:56:48 [markd2]
I want you to put me on the wheel
22:57:09 [talli]
this channel is becoming more and more salacious.
22:57:13 [til]
til (~tils@62.116.25.202) has joined #openacs
22:57:21 [talli]
can't we invite some ladies in here to tone it down?
22:57:25 [denshi]
uh oh. the log sez markd has a quotes file.
22:57:49 [markd2]
http://badgertronics.com/writings/quotes.txt
22:58:37 [denshi]
I can't figure out if rzolf just quoted himself or if you keep a realtime log.
22:58:51 [markd2]
it's pretty realtime
22:59:00 [markd2]
if something tickles me, I drop it in there
22:59:57 [vinod]
see - markd2 IS a bot
22:59:58 [denshi]
looks like markd doesn't have anything that'll ruin my future political career.
23:00:06 [markd2]
* markd2 beeps
23:00:46 [markd2]
"Oui, mem sahib. Me onum phone. Me talkum customers. White man use strange
23:00:46 [markd2]
words like "crash" and "bug" and "@#$@^#$". Me no likum support. Ugh."
23:00:57 [rzolf]
i have far too many quotes in that file.
23:01:10 [docwolf]
talli -- where are the ladies?
23:01:25 [talli]
dunno. eve is available right? tracy? they could help here...
23:01:26 [markd2]
that's why I keep saying you have a career as a mania^H^H^H^H^H net.commentator
23:01:27 [talli]
right?
23:01:56 [docwolf]
umm.. i thought you said that you wanted to tone it _down_...
23:02:13 [docwolf]
(ever watch eve drink?)
23:02:20 [talli]
no, sorry.
23:02:33 [talli]
but i hope that there will be a story coming, with or with the #s
23:02:47 [vinod]
ask and you shall receive
23:03:07 [talli]
whoa. nice
23:03:17 [rzolf]
i wasn't that plastered.
23:03:36 [rzolf]
poor guidestar.
23:03:51 [talli]
guidestar is all in java now :)
23:03:56 [talli]
good work, guys.
23:04:06 [markd2]
the funny thing about that
23:04:07 [rzolf]
poor gregh
23:04:14 [markd2]
is it took GS over a full *year* to get out of aD
23:04:22 [markd2]
their consulting company was over a year late with the site
23:04:30 [rzolf]
then they wanted to ditch tht consulting company.
23:04:35 [talli]
christ
23:04:41 [rzolf]
because they charged over $1M
23:04:49 [talli]
why did they want to get out of aD?
23:04:55 [rzolf]
because I personally suck.
23:05:08 [markd2]
it was a disaster
23:05:12 [markd2]
horribly underscoped
23:05:14 [rzolf]
i dont know, the project was a disaster.
23:05:17 [talli]
ah, one of those
23:05:25 [markd2]
the conversion of the legacy site was scoped to take 2 weeks
23:05:32 [talli]
whoa
23:05:40 [rzolf]
they wanted all this stuff, but really they only wanted the same site they already had.
23:05:45 [markd2]
in reality it was a very weirdly programmed combination of CF pages and informix bizarreness
23:05:54 [rzolf]
and we had to port the old sie.
23:05:56 [rzolf]
site.
23:05:59 [rzolf]
and it was weird.
23:06:06 [markd2]
like the database stored procedures make bitfields, which then the CF pulled apart
23:06:10 [rzolf]
hehe.
23:06:13 [rzolf]
oh yeah i forgot that.
23:06:15 [markd2]
plus the datamodel was *way* fuxored
23:06:18 [rzolf]
and intermedia didn't work.
23:06:38 [markd2]
and rzolf & I had no clue what were were doing
23:06:39 [rzolf]
and we had to figure out how to get the data off of casette tapes and into oracle.
23:06:41 [talli]
has intermedia ever worked?
23:07:01 [rzolf]
and barbara link quit.
23:07:12 [markd2]
and atisaya left
23:07:23 [rzolf]
and I had to get the barbie jeep tuned up.
23:07:31 [markd2]
wonder what happenedto blink once ad.org got shot
23:07:50 [rzolf]
i dunno i think she is loaded so it probably makes no difference.
23:08:10 [talli]
docwolf still is in touch with her, i think
23:08:20 [markd2]
* markd2 prods docwolf
23:08:25 [rzolf]
i think docwolf is sleeping.
23:08:46 [docwolf]
wha
23:08:49 [docwolf]
oh
23:08:57 [markd2]
guess he woke up
23:08:57 [docwolf]
blink is living on a farm
23:08:58 [rzolf]
anyway. even though guidestar is now on java
23:09:02 [docwolf]
outside of providence
23:09:06 [rzolf]
and hosted by who knows
23:09:12 [docwolf]
doing consulting work for the local government.
23:09:15 [rzolf]
i had to bump it up a few notches on my resume.
23:09:18 [docwolf]
and growing vegetables.
23:09:19 [markd2]
ooof
23:09:22 [rzolf]
because it is on TV all the time.
23:09:39 [talli]
is it part of the networkedforgood.org silliness?
23:09:57 [talli]
weren't it and helping.org somehow related?
23:10:04 [markd2]
yes to helping.org
23:10:58 [talli]
well, that's good to know
23:11:18 [docwolf]
markd forgets about the "bill gates wealth clock"
23:11:34 [markd2]
heh
23:11:35 [talli]
i went to pogopet.com a couple o ftimes
23:11:37 [docwolf]
(promoted by philg as one of the many "web apps" that he's written..)
23:11:37 [markd2]
that was more of an MIT property
23:12:04 [yon]
yon (~yon@24-168-18-193.nyc.rr.com) has joined #openacs
23:12:07 [talli]
aD built some real doozy dotbombs
23:12:12 [talli]
hey yon
23:12:15 [markd2]
this Yonaton?
23:12:31 [yon]
yup
23:12:33 [yon]
Yonatan
23:12:35 [markd2]
dude!
23:12:40 [rzolf]
yon.
23:12:44 [yon]
mark wasssupp?
23:12:50 [markd2]
nammach
23:12:56 [markd2]
killing time before band tonight
23:12:58 [yon]
i just found out about this channel
23:13:09 [yon]
do you have a performance or practice?
23:13:12 [markd2]
yeah. some real weirdos hang out around here
23:13:14 [markd2]
practice
23:13:52 [rzolf]
* rzolf is out -- food
23:13:54 [yon]
maybe adam is the only weirdo
23:14:04 [yon]
and rolf :)
23:14:11 [rzolf]
* rzolf isn't weird
23:14:12 [markd2]
Vinod's pretty weird too
23:14:24 [vinod]
i am not pretty
23:14:40 [yon]
who is vinod ??
23:14:44 [docwolf]
dude.. the Wolf Bioscience team isn't weird.. we're just shady.
23:14:45 [talli]
oh man
23:14:47 [talli]
that's it
23:15:01 [yon]
how is boca baby ??
23:15:12 [vinod]
nobody really - i just hang around for the on-topic discussions
23:15:12 [rzolf]
it is good, but we gotta go eat.
23:15:18 [docwolf]
it's been fun so far... but ask rzolf :-)
23:15:27 [docwolf]
yeah, we're going out to stuff our faces. be back in a bit.
23:15:51 [yon]
let me recommend that you guys go to la fusta in miami beach and then to the dollhouse
23:16:00 [markd2]
yon - did you see the pornolizer?
23:16:02 [rzolf]
oh yeah
23:16:04 [rzolf]
la fusta.
23:16:08 [rzolf]
ok, gotta go.
23:16:11 [rzolf]
* rzolf is away
23:16:13 [yon]
no, what is that?
23:17:36 [markd2]
it's random every time you load it
23:18:45 [denshi]
to quote:
23:18:45 [denshi]
Dec 20, 2001: ArsDigita Answers "Bust-a-Cunt" Raunchs on the Future of ACS and Support of Open "Bitch" Source
23:19:01 [denshi]
I think markd has reached new levels of depravity with this one.
23:19:21 [markd2]
I didn't write it
23:19:25 [denshi]
who the hell developed this?
23:19:31 [markd2]
origianlly I saw it with wplug.org in the victim slot
23:19:59 [denshi]
why does 'wpug' ring bells for me?
23:20:06 [markd2]
wpLug
23:20:17 [markd2]
wpug sounds like a radio station
23:20:25 [denshi]
unh. it's a LUG.
23:20:39 [markd2]
http://juniks.org/ is mentioned at the bottom of the pornolizer front page
23:20:39 [chump]
B: http://juniks.org/ from markd2
23:21:12 [denshi]
your LUG is certainly more interesting than the one I was in in Austin. There someone quit b/c another member 'disrespected christ' or somesuch nonsense.
23:21:21 [markd2]
heh
23:21:26 [markd2]
http://www.wplug.org
23:21:26 [chump]
C: http://www.wplug.org from markd2
23:21:38 [markd2]
C:| Western Pennsylvania Linux Users Group
23:21:39 [chump]
titled item C
23:21:47 [markd2]
C: MarkD's favorite LUG
23:21:47 [chump]
commented item C
23:21:53 [markd2]
the channel has a monkeybot that's amusing
23:23:26 [talli]
what's a monkeybot?
23:23:34 [markd2]
it's what we call our infobot
23:23:53 [markd2]
it also can play a number guessing game, has info on country codes.
23:23:57 [markd2]
and knows the All Your Base dialog
23:23:59 [yon]
that pornolizer kicks ass
23:24:13 [talli]
this truly is a depraved channel.
23:24:41 [markd2]
markd2 has changed the topic to: OpenACS: Free Web Toolkit http://openacs.org | <talli> this truly is a depraved channel.
23:24:42 [talli]
denshi, i shan't think that your bible bangin' cohort at the austin lug would much enjoy it here
23:25:21 [yon]
i like the "web cocksucker content framework"
23:25:38 [yon]
maybe it whould be the "web sucker content framework"
23:26:07 [denshi]
it was so wierd to see someone suddenly spin off about their god in the middle of a technical discussion on unix timekeeping. It was like reading alt.religion.kibology.
23:26:25 [markd2]
our crew is pretty good about that stuff
23:26:34 [markd2]
except for one guy that wears an "abortion in murder" button
23:26:40 [markd2]
but he is such a mega loser, we just make fun of him
23:27:37 [talli]
actually, i think there is some interesting synchronicity, if you will, with his spouting off about god during a unix timekeeping discussion.
23:28:06 [denshi]
speaking of alt.religion.kibology
23:28:12 [talli]
if you assume god to be a celestial watch keeper, and unix to be an appropriate metaphor for our corporeal existence...
23:28:17 [talli]
well, you get the picture.
23:28:45 [talli]
markd2: can we pornalize the vatican website, maybe?
23:28:50 [denshi]
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=m23dpdmn4t.fsf%40project.epicentre.net&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DTodd%2BGillespie%26hl%3Den%26group%3Dalt.religion.kibology.*%26selm%3Dm23dpdmn4t.fsf%2540project.epicentre.net%26rnum%3D1
23:28:50 [chump]
D: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=m23dpdmn4t.fsf%40project.epicentre.net&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DTodd%2BGillespie%26hl%3Den%26group%3Dalt.religion.kibology.*%26selm%3Dm23dpdmn4t.fsf%2540project.epicentre.net%26rnum%3D1 from denshi
23:29:19 [markd2]
cool. the web server logs don't show the pornolized versions as coming from the pronolizer
23:29:29 [denshi]
a.r.k is extra fun b/c various crackpots pick fights with Kibo. I mean, that's like asking god for a violent non-sequiter.
23:29:45 [markd2]
Leader Kibo & I have written a play
23:30:08 [markd2]
http://badgertronics.com/net-humor/waitingForKibo.adp
23:30:09 [chump]
E: http://badgertronics.com/net-humor/waitingForKibo.adp from markd2
23:30:25 [markd2]
E:| Collaborative composition with MarkD and Leader Kibo
23:30:25 [chump]
titled item E
23:30:46 [talli]
i must admit i am unfamiliar with this kibo person
23:31:10 [markd2]
http://kibo.com/
23:31:11 [chump]
F: http://kibo.com/ from markd2
23:31:14 [markd2]
James "Kibo" Parry
23:31:26 [markd2]
back inthe Good Old Days, he'd grep the usenet stream for his name, and reply to postings
23:31:31 [markd2]
so he was like a God that appeared out of nowhere
23:31:52 [markd2]
eventually alt.religion.kibology came about as an appropriate forum for discussing kibolicious theology
23:32:00 [denshi]
that sort of snowballed. Now his channel is filled with people trying to understand the Tao of non-sequiter.
23:32:05 [talli]
haha
23:32:26 [denshi]
"Because KIBO MUST BE STOPPED, PREFERABLY BY A CRAZY PERSON."
23:34:08 [denshi]
oops -- I gave the wrong link. click on msg 31 in that thread and work your way down.
23:34:50 [denshi]
"Send email to people who have the power to stop James Kibo."
23:35:11 [talli]
all of thm are pretty good
23:37:32 [til]
til has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:37:57 [markd2]
gotta run. l8r
23:37:59 [markd2]
markd2 has quit ("Bork")
23:38:30 [denshi]
myself as well.
23:38:32 [denshi]
denshi has quit ()