00:00:22 i fear ibm. i have heard nothing good about their consulting services 00:00:50 they seem to just hire a bunch of immigrant code monkeys that they can charge at 300/hour and pay 50/hour 00:02:15 i know one freelancer that worked on an IBM project as a manager who said that the hackers weren't that good 00:02:45 and i know one guy who had a massive project on which IBM bid and lost to accenture. apparently IBM did a pathetic job 00:03:21 depends on where in ibm. 00:03:30 if redhat can weather the downturn, they should be in good shape given linux's reasonable maturation 00:03:40 there already weathered it afaics. 00:03:48 do you have experience with IBM? 00:03:50 lots of phds at ibm as well doing research and dev. 00:03:58 intern. 00:04:05 ah, yes, but that's not their consulting services area 00:04:10 no, its not. 00:04:18 its more their tech. group. 00:04:28 IBMs processor R&D area is supposed to be the best in the industry 00:05:30 as far as RH, i hope they can weather the downturn. i hope some of the other linux consultancies can do the same, like progeny 00:11:42 anyone want to take a quick look at this site design? http://www.okfilters.com/new/ 00:13:45 davb: it's nice, but the menu gifs don't come across too sharp 00:14:28 talli: thanks. I'll have to tweak the anti-aliasing. what are you using BTW? 00:15:11 IE 6 on win 00:15:17 ok. 00:15:54 looks good on mozilla 0.9.7 (linux) 00:16:28 vinod: thanks 00:17:05 np 00:17:05 vinod: have you gone to games at lambeau? 00:17:32 just one. it's a bitch to get tickets 00:17:43 it's that hard? whoa 00:17:50 even just to see a game? 00:18:23 truthfully, it's not too hard to scalp a single ticket (which is what i did), but you can't officially buy tickets. they're sold out through the year 2040 or so 00:18:36 jesus 00:18:47 did you watch the games from home or tailgate? 00:19:31 2040?? if it weren't for other things to do, moving elsewhere might be an option 00:19:44 when i was in gb, (for 6 months in 1999), i tailgated every wknd and then watched the game at a bar 00:20:03 but, i grew up in milwaukee, so, we'd just watch games at home 00:20:07 jim: is there something else to do? 00:20:15 dlk has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 00:20:16 I dunno :) 00:20:21 ah, you're from milwaukee... that explains it 00:20:33 I guess see something else, somewhere else :) 00:20:35 the people i know from milwaukee are true freaks. 00:20:38 me? 00:20:47 milawukee? 00:20:51 no, vinod. jim, are you a freak? 00:20:59 i'm a freak 00:21:32 I program computers... I guess I qualify :) 00:22:08 jim: it also depends on how large your gut is, how long your beard is and how many OS tshirts you have :) 00:22:19 but I play bass too :() 00:22:33 upright or electric? 00:22:44 elec 5 string fretless :) 00:22:48 * vinod realizes that the OpenACS tshirt that talli gave me was a ploy to turn me into a freak 00:23:02 oh man. you want another one? 00:23:19 i should fight the name change just so i don't have to burn 200 odd OACS 4 tshirts 00:23:41 haha 00:23:51 I'm trying to learn something from Gary Willis... I visited him about 20 days before 911 00:23:53 i'll sell 'em on ebay :) 00:24:03 gary willis... where would i have heard his name? 00:24:24 he has Holdsworth album credits... 00:24:46 you hear him play, you jaw will fall off ;) 00:24:52 hmmm... don't know that. maybe i'm confusing him, or i'm just trying to sound smarter than i am 00:24:56 what kind of music are you into? 00:25:02 ..fall off trying to drop :) 00:25:13 he plays fusion 00:25:23 I play trad jazz right now 00:25:29 cool. 00:25:42 you should speak with rolf (rzolf). i guess he plays uprigth bass 00:25:51 what kind of trad jazz? 00:26:05 for me i like dead can dance, ambient electronic, rage against the machine... too young to have 'cultured' taste. 00:26:14 ever hear of tony scherr? greg cohen? 00:26:38 the second one sounds familiar... 00:27:37 greg cohen plays bass on tom waits albums 00:28:37 but he's primarly a jazz bassist 00:28:53 ah.. to be honest, i haven't been listening to music in a long time. 00:30:39 * talli is away: no reason supplied 00:31:06 somebody here an expert on the templating system? 00:31:16 I have used it :) 00:31:17 no, but you can ask. 00:31:30 * talli is no longer away 00:32:29 hmm i wonder about the cacheing. 00:32:54 i'm working on a clustering solution and i can't find a catch about in the template cacheing. seems to be totally transparent 00:34:16 abbaJ (~jabba@adsl-64-123-15-159.dsl.austtx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs 00:34:34 huhu? 00:37:43 I haven't looked into caching at all. 00:38:50 djg: there is no caching, just compilation (there used to some options, but i dont' think they exist anymore). 00:39:01 the compilation to a tcl proc makes it fairly fast though. 00:41:03 how does it know to recompile? for example if I change a template. 00:41:27 i forgot, i think it stores the mod time. 00:41:40 ok. np, I can look if I really need to know :) 00:41:55 the internals aren't very pretty cause of all the uplevel/vars. 00:42:00 which drove me nuts. 00:42:10 yes, they really scare me. 00:42:48 hmm but soem other modules seem to be abuse the template query cacheing. 00:42:52 guess i'll have to change those 00:58:02 wow. dreamweaver is great for dorking around with a dozen or so static pages that you want to change the design on. 00:59:30 davb: that's why webDAV is the answer for CMS 01:00:02 well is it and isn't dreamweaver is good for dorking around with HTML. so it might be good for editing adp templates. 01:00:20 for creating content, I would say it is not so great. WebDAV is still a good idea though :) 01:00:39 I am looking at Radio Userland again. 01:01:07 talli has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 01:01:09 You need OS support for webDAV though. What you can do is put files into a folder and they are magically sent to the server. 01:01:14 oh well :) 01:02:53 talli (talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 01:03:06 hey davb, sorry, got booted 01:03:24 np :) 01:03:55 anyway, writing tools are very personal so we need a way to support adding and editing content from any tool using WebDAV or SOAP or whatever. 01:15:41 yes, that's true 01:17:52 and of course, allow uploads of word etc... 01:18:01 and do something clever with it. 01:18:14 well, that's teh thing. can't webdav do all that? 01:19:10 and do it very nicely, with versioning and locking and so on? 01:20:35 webdav is just a set of HTTP headers. It's all about moving the content back and forth and versioning. we can implement a webdav filesystem in the database to do the actual imlementation. 01:21:00 but that just gets the files to the server. then we have to intelligently process it. 01:29:27 well, that's true 01:29:52 i think, though, the big part is allowing client side apps other than the browser do more work 01:40:59 hazmat has left #openacs 01:41:27 docwolf (~docwolf@67.32.238.80) has joined #openacs 01:41:55 awright, where is that talli character? The one that was ripping on my hometown? :-) 01:44:15 talli: YES! 01:44:16 :) 01:44:39 hehe 01:47:24 rzolf (~rolf@67.32.238.80) has joined #openacs 01:48:12 go away rzolf, we don't want your kind here. "Boca People". harrumph. 01:48:31 docwolf: i thought your hometown was NYC? 01:48:38 are you in fact an old yid from Boca? 01:48:45 talli: that was a long, long time ago. 01:48:56 now i'm old, bitter, and wearing plad golf pants. 01:48:56 ah, ok 01:49:04 well, i'll send you some SPF 1000 01:49:06 it's a natural progression. 01:49:17 i'm getting extra-crotchety, too. 01:49:23 i know the sun is pretty strong down there. and the humidity... OY VEY! 01:49:29 hehe 01:50:01 rolf and i actually went out to a "hip place" the other night, and we were afraid of the "surly teenagers". 01:50:16 the only thing that might save you is the porn industry. but even that you said is on its way out... 01:50:38 aren't there any hotties down at the complex's pool? 01:50:41 yeah, very sad. ft. lauderdale has become too clean. 01:50:51 or, maybe at bingo night? 01:50:55 we haven't spent much time around the pool. too busy working :-( 01:50:59 and getting loaded. 01:51:02 on stimulants. 01:51:21 (we have a starbucks and an einsteins in walking distance. very bad thing.) 01:51:33 you writing yourself RX of ephedrine and ritalin? 01:51:40 what's an einsteins? 01:51:47 (cut to scene of docwolf's chest exploding) 01:51:57 einsteins is a bagel place, but they have mega coffee. 01:52:12 ah, einsteins = noahs, huh? 01:52:17 jewish kitsch 01:52:20 hehe 01:52:21 ot 01:52:30 it's like a middle-american bagel 01:52:48 not the authentic NYC experience. 01:52:49 isn't that a donut? 01:52:52 haha. 01:53:04 they don't have salt bagels. it totally blows. but their coffee is good. 01:53:15 hey, what was that discussion software you mentioned? 01:53:39 vbulletin. it rocks. 01:54:00 what's it written in? 01:54:14 PHP! (the Mother of All Scripting Languages) 01:54:26 don't worry, it actually works properly. 01:54:35 and it scales. rolf used it at winamp. 01:55:28 and it allows for email posts? 01:55:45 what is going on here 01:55:45 it is very nice 01:55:48 http://forums.winamp.com/ 01:55:49 A: http://forums.winamp.com/ from docwolf 01:55:57 i am showing off your work 01:56:06 oh 01:56:12 and discussing our unfortunate habit. 01:56:20 i am looking at your prototype. 01:56:23 there's a lot of noise at vbulletin.org, but that can prob be taken out 01:56:30 uh oh 01:56:37 (docwolfs hangs head in shame) 01:56:50 is there some randy file where these constants are defined. 01:56:51 dude -- what's with the "tech support" forum at winamp 01:56:54 ???? 01:56:57 it's not Libre, though (as my buddy brad says) 01:56:59 "point, click, install..." 01:57:18 vbulletin is like $40 a year. 01:57:19 like "PHP_AUTH_BLABLA" 01:57:31 or is that coming from the session. 01:58:09 rzolf: you talking to me? 01:58:39 no, doc wolf. 01:58:45 ok 01:59:26 whee. 01:59:50 (rzolf digs through code that no man should ever have to see..) 02:00:17 it's not that much nicer than the OACS bboards, though 02:00:19 it is better than acs 3.x groups 02:00:38 you mean the admin code? 02:00:46 the interface isn't that much better than 4 02:00:51 no i mean doc wolf's code. 02:01:16 vbulletin is a pile but it seems to work with minimum hassle. 02:01:22 ah, ok 02:01:30 total rube goldberg style 02:01:54 do they have a toaster connected to an alarm clock 02:01:55 ? 02:02:07 with a chicken in between? 02:02:08 heh 02:02:22 * davb looks for his "the incredible machine" floppies 02:03:09 heh. 02:03:14 that was a cool game. 02:03:37 what talli described sounds like a swiss art film. 02:03:47 only the chicken is wearing bondage gear. 02:03:59 i believe that would be a german art film. 02:04:04 and it cuts to a fat guy wearing a diaper. 02:04:13 no, definitely czech film 02:04:20 with the slow-motion cow mooing sound. 02:05:56 * davb learns: do not leave the eraser collection next to the sketches you just did in reach of the 3-year-old 02:06:11 talli: which preconceptions about czech movies do you have?! 02:06:22 the only ones i ever saw were kids' movies... 02:06:28 ah and the new hollywood-style breed 02:07:20 what on earth.... 02:07:24 http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/01/13/bush.fainting.ap/index.html 02:07:24 B: http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/01/13/bush.fainting.ap/index.html from docwolf 02:07:37 osama bin pretzel 02:07:57 oh my 02:08:02 what on earht. 02:08:11 you just can't write jokes like that 02:08:51 what happens if bush dies? is there even a vice president anymore? 02:08:59 RoboCheney 02:09:57 Why Maggie Matters: Sounds of Silence, East and West. 02:10:14 :-) 02:10:24 who said philosophy majors are unemployable? 02:10:38 heh 02:11:05 i don't know what happens if bush dies. i guess i'll just have to wait until cnn's web poll results come in... 02:11:41 i bet billg rigs it again 02:12:01 the better question of course... who will take over after everyone in the whitehouse with Enron stock is impeached? 02:19:10 i think cheney is off finding a place to hide 02:19:51 the secretary of the army was an enron exec? 02:26:27 the worst part is the CEO and enron attorney saying they welcome the justice department investigation so they can find out what happened to the company. 02:33:00 on a lighter note, http://www.caninefreestyle.com/ 02:33:38 tjat 02:33:41 that 02:33:49 is even worse than http://www.pantscam.com 02:34:58 yes 02:40:41 www.assmorph.com 02:41:08 what on earth 02:42:07 assmorph.com is actually cool. 02:42:13 sort of. 02:43:37 davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.5 [Mozilla rv:0.9.7/20011221]") 02:46:55 davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 03:01:04 rzolf has quit ("[BX] You can breathe without BitchX, but I wouldn't recommend it") 03:05:19 vinod has quit ("changing universes") 03:32:13 davb has quit ("Client Exiting") 04:41:47 talli has left #openacs 05:45:42 lethedrinker (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #openacs 06:56:56 lethedrinker is now known as hazmat 08:14:28 dlk (dlk@garrison.ita.chalmers.se) has joined #openacs 08:31:11 til (~tils@62.116.25.202) has joined #openacs 09:28:32 dlk is now known as dead-man-walking 10:18:13 dead-man-walking is now known as dlk 10:18:46 dlk is now known as away 10:18:50 away is now known as dlk 10:52:16 dlk is now known as dead-man-walking 10:58:32 dead-man-walking is now known as dead-man-walking-lunch-with-ki 10:59:13 dead-man-walking-lunch-with-ki is now known as dlk-lunch 11:39:45 dlk-lunch is now known as dlk-really-lunch 11:55:10 til has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 12:04:09 til (~tils@62.116.25.202) has joined #openacs 12:59:46 dlk-really-lunch is now known as dead-man-walking 13:38:21 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.168.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 13:43:27 davb (~dave@cm-208-136-23-203.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 13:43:33 hello 13:49:27 hi 13:54:29 til has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 13:54:47 dead-man-walking is now known as dlk-meeting 14:02:41 bye 15:02:13 davb has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 15:03:55 davb (~dave@cm-208-136-23-203.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 15:30:09 djg has left #openacs 15:59:42 dlk-meeting is now known as dlk 16:00:23 davb has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:00:23 markd2 has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:00:23 hazmat has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:00:23 docwolf has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:00:23 jim has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:00:49 dlk has quit (Remote closed the connection) 16:02:03 dlk (dlk@garrison.ita.chalmers.se) has joined #OpenACS 16:02:03 davb (~dave@cm-208-136-23-203.nycap.rr.com) has joined #OpenACS 16:02:03 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.168.alltel.net) has joined #OpenACS 16:02:03 hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #OpenACS 16:02:03 docwolf (~docwolf@67.32.238.80) has joined #OpenACS 16:02:03 jim (~jim@12-233-187-5.client.attbi.com) has joined #OpenACS 16:12:40 jim has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:12:40 docwolf has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:12:40 hazmat has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:12:40 markd2 has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:12:40 davb has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:12:40 dlk has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:12:40 Psychephylax has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:15:09 jim (~jim@12-233-187-5.client.attbi.com) has joined #OpenACS 16:15:09 docwolf (~docwolf@67.32.238.80) has joined #OpenACS 16:15:09 hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #OpenACS 16:15:09 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.168.alltel.net) has joined #OpenACS 16:15:09 davb (~dave@cm-208-136-23-203.nycap.rr.com) has joined #OpenACS 16:15:10 dlk (dlk@garrison.ita.chalmers.se) has joined #OpenACS 16:15:10 Psychephylax (proxy@ool-18baab43.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #OpenACS 16:15:16 [#OpenACS] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog 16:33:23 til (~tils@62.116.25.202) has joined #openacs 17:21:47 talli (talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 17:22:01 hello talli 17:22:14 hey davb and the everyone else 17:22:46 the jim says the hi :) 17:23:05 * talli says hi to the jim 17:28:43 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23658.html 17:28:43 C: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23658.html from davb 17:28:57 C:|Borland demands users pay for license audit 17:28:57 titled item C 17:29:44 dlk is now known as dead-man-walking 18:20:05 vinod (~vinod@216-164-247-103.s2325.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs 18:34:08 hey everyone! 18:34:17 can anyone else connect to postgresql.org? 18:34:49 nnope 18:34:54 I can't get to connectix.com either 18:35:08 nope 18:35:25 markd2: i can get to connectix 18:35:33 i can get to connectix as well 18:35:58 markd2: do you want me to read the page to you? ;-) 18:35:59 does connectix work nicely, markd? 18:36:38 markdfoo (~Snak@r-41.168.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 18:36:50 i've used virtual pc 3.0 on my mac and it was functional. but if you made me use it for more than an hour i woulda killed you - it was pretty slow 18:37:42 I've been running the VP5 for os/x preview for awhile 18:37:52 and the day I acutally need it, it expires 18:37:59 and connectix.com is down for upgrading from VP4 18:38:17 doh! 18:38:26 for what I want to do - read the occasional word file, do a dba test, run oracle, it's great 18:40:13 denshi (~chatzilla@adsl-216-62-223-193.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs 18:40:25 oof. Crowded in here. 18:40:57 most of us are robots 18:41:07 or waiting for another name to die due to a bad ISP 18:41:16 I am not a bot, I am a free man! 18:42:14 -- said the bot 18:42:54 -- said the docbot 18:43:51 hey denshi 18:44:22 yo talli. 18:44:23 brb 18:44:28 Psychephylax has quit (adams.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 18:46:33 so I'm reading the chatlogs; seeing what I've missed this wkend. 18:46:45 I see vinod has an open question from saturday. 18:47:18 23:15:18 what's functional programming? (in a nutshell) 18:47:26 still need an answer? 18:48:24 * davb finishes the chapter on quadratic equations in his albegra book! 18:48:33 woot! 18:48:49 bork! 18:48:57 davb: cool :) 18:49:09 umm, what is chump? 18:49:14 now I have to finish up with ratios and inequalities, then on to trig! 18:49:25 hmm, you doing precalc? 18:49:29 chump keeps tracks of all URLs entered on a line by themselves 18:49:38 jim: after trig, then calc, etc... 18:49:45 chump: view 18:49:45 A: http://forums.winamp.com/ 18:49:46 B: http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/01/13/bush.fainting.ap/index.html 18:49:47 C: Borland demands users pay for license audit (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23658.html) 18:50:10 denshi: sure. i've been reading up on haskell a bit, but my mind is still a little foggy on functional programming 18:50:17 the URLs also go to a web site: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog/ 18:50:24 is chump a general combination of an eggdrop and an aolserver? 18:50:44 no, its written in Python. I just use it :) 18:50:56 vinod: in a nutshell, 'funtional programming' means no side effects. Just functions returning values. 18:50:57 although something that worked in AOLserver would be nifty. 18:51:35 Psychephylax (proxy@ool-18baab43.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #openacs 18:53:06 * davb is planning on studying computer science to hopefully avoid a future of Access db hacking. 18:53:39 vinod: to explain using history, functional programming is a style that does not assume the existence of a von Neumann architecture, unlike the imperative languages (eg, the Algols like C). A von Neumann machine is characterized as a set of registers and code that reads and writes to those registers -- the sophmoric language design on top of that is focused on handling those registers. 18:55:06 other types of machines might be a stack machine (which is similar but uses stacks rather than registers), a turing machine (which will never be built), and so forth. I've never explored the LISP machine architecture, so I don't know what to say about that. Moving right along.... 18:55:29 * markdfoo just invested everything in turing machine tape manufacturers 18:55:30 damn 18:56:05 LISP was written in an attempt to axiomatize computation. So it doesn't assume anything about the underlying machine, only that the machine can implement function calls and value returns. 18:56:29 but this is all a bunch of noise, I guess, if you're not already converted. 18:56:54 I didn't fully grasp FP until I used LISP, and the reason why is the top level. 18:57:04 do the SICP thing at aduni.org to make it less noisey :) 18:57:37 Ah, more people here. So has anyone read The Little Schemer (or LISPer)? 18:57:49 I have seen the little schemer 18:57:54 markd2 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 18:58:04 never opened it :) 18:58:09 markdfoo is now known as markd2 18:58:10 * vinod wonders why denshi is going back to school :-) 18:58:14 I got it to ease the road to SICP :) it looks pretty good. 18:58:32 it is supposed to teach you to think recursively. 18:58:34 so are you watching the aduni flicks? 18:59:16 I have downloaded the SICP lectures from MIT, but they made my head hurt (thats why I am studying math and got the little schemer) 18:59:30 There's no concept of a "main" function in LISP; any function can be called at any time. How does that compare to an imperative language? In C, if you call some random function at any time, it might crash, b/c certain environment variables, or globals, or some other kind of state condition has not been previously satisfied. OTOH, any fxn call in LISP is contained, so the toplevel is truly interactive. 18:59:34 videos?? 19:00:17 jim: I DL them from aduni.org, but they are not available since they moved. 19:00:59 they are Real media format like everything else from there. 19:01:05 This property in LISP is a result of FP. If you look at that for a while, you'll see how that can make debugging and rapid design much easier. 19:01:26 I'm done for now. I can't explain this one too well yet. 19:01:28 davb: how many lectures are there? 19:01:45 davb: I read the Little Schemer for the chocolate chip cookie receipe. 19:01:48 thanks denshi - that was quite helpful 19:01:54 jim: for SICP, 20 I think... 10 lectures, 2 parts each. 19:02:05 * davb will check for the recipe when he gets home 19:02:52 * denshi thinks he has to explain something to different people at least 3 times to learn how to explain it. 19:03:01 how much total space do they occupy? 19:03:32 vinod: jess says it's lunchtime. I'll talk school later, as I hope I am not crazy. But lunch first. 19:03:44 teaching is the best way to learn 19:03:50 Later guys. 19:03:57 see ya 19:04:00 denshi: sounds good. i promise not to make any psychiatric diagnoses yet 19:04:00 denshi has quit () 19:04:19 vinod: how many CDs is that? 19:04:47 12 19:04:48 jim: the entire adUni catalog is like 80GB. This is just one course :) 19:05:00