IRC log of openacs on 2002-01-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:32:35 [Psychephylax]
Psychephylax (nblyumbe@ool-18baab43.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #openacs
00:32:40 [Psychephylax]
Damnation!
00:55:14 [Psychephylax]
Psychephylax has quit ("My damn controlling terminal disappeared!")
00:58:49 [davb]
davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
00:59:48 [davb]
davb has quit (Client Quit)
01:50:56 [davb]
davb (~chatzilla@alb-24-58-160-135.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
03:05:48 [jim]
is chris@aduni here?
03:06:56 [jim]
anyone know if he ircs here ever, and if so under what nick?
04:23:12 [dlk]
dlk (dlk@as2-1-4.va.g.bonet.se) has joined #openacs
04:23:23 [dlk-zombi]
dlk-zombi has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
04:33:29 [davb]
jim: I don't think he has ever visited.
04:34:04 [davb]
davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.5 [Mozilla rv:0.9.7/20011221]")
04:41:27 [til]
til has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
10:35:10 [til]
til (~tils@62.116.25.202) has joined #openacs
10:58:20 [docwolf]
docwolf has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
11:43:42 [davb]
davb (~chatzilla@alb-24-58-160-135.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
11:45:04 [dlk]
dlk is now known as dead-man-walking
12:01:00 [davb]
davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.5 [Mozilla rv:0.9.7/20011221]")
12:29:33 [djg]
djg (~dirk@pD9E6B704.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #openacs
12:41:59 [davb]
davb (~chatzilla@alb-24-58-160-135.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
12:46:00 [til]
"guten tag, einen oi-spiegel bitte. und haben sie auch oi-suppenschüsseln?"
12:46:04 [til]
oops
12:49:41 [davb]
davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.5 [Mozilla rv:0.9.7/20011221]")
13:18:08 [davb]
davb (~chatzilla@alb-24-58-160-135.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
13:45:37 [davb]
http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/02q1/020111/index.html
13:45:37 [chump]
A: http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/02q1/020111/index.html from davb
13:45:46 [davb]
A:|Build your own mini-PC
13:45:47 [chump]
titled item A
13:45:52 [davb]
A: from Tom's Hardware
13:45:53 [chump]
commented item A
13:49:50 [davb]
davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.5 [Mozilla rv:0.9.7/20011221]")
14:40:35 [davb]
davb (~chatzilla@alb-24-58-160-135.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
14:41:51 [dead-man-walking]
dead-man-walking is now known as dlk
14:52:09 [davb]
davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.5 [Mozilla rv:0.9.7/20011221]")
16:18:46 [djg]
djg has quit ("Download Gaim [http://gaim.sourceforge.net/]")
17:05:24 [til]
* til is playing with colorizing the aolserver error log for a more beautiful tail -f
18:00:11 [Psychephylax]
Psychephylax (~syslogd@ool-18baaa63.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #openacs
18:31:23 [davb]
davb (~chatzilla@alb-24-58-160-135.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
18:36:09 [davb]
interested search phrase in referrer log: "use openacs to make money" :)
18:36:21 [davb]
I am not sure how that found my site...
19:05:05 [hazmat]
hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #openacs
19:05:05 [Psychephylax]
Psychephylax has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
19:05:34 [hazmat]
hazmat has quit (Remote closed the connection)
19:07:22 [hazmat]
hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #openacs
19:27:21 [hazmat]
ping
19:39:06 [rzolf]
rzolf (~rolf@67.32.238.80) has joined #openacs
19:40:28 [davb]
pong
19:44:28 [rzolf]
davb.
19:44:37 [davb]
hi rzolf
19:45:11 [rzolf]
what's up?
19:45:38 [davb]
I am doing some graphics for a crappy web site I am supporting :)
19:45:43 [rzolf]
;-)
19:45:47 [rzolf]
sounds like fun.
19:50:26 [davb]
it pays, very little, but more than none.
19:51:42 [rzolf]
getting paid 0 isn't so fun.
19:55:31 [k2pts]
k2pts (~nkd@adsl-168-174.cytanet.com.cy) has joined #openacs
19:55:43 [k2pts]
hi everybody
19:56:30 [davb]
hi k2pts!
19:56:33 [rzolf]
hello k2pts.
19:57:27 [k2pts]
i'm back from holidays and I'm gonna work on the search package tomorrow.
19:58:40 [davb]
terrific!
19:59:06 [k2pts]
davb: I have been looking into the rss-support package. Are you going to implement rss_get from external sources as well. AFAICS, it only generates rss feeds now, right?
19:59:18 [davb]
k2pts: yes we will.
19:59:31 [davb]
I have to think about the contracts. I already have the code that reads them.
19:59:55 [davb]
I think the answer may be the new portal stuff in .LRN
20:00:01 [k2pts]
yeap
20:00:05 [davb]
should be super easy to put the rss into a little box.
20:00:36 [k2pts]
can you send me the code that gets rss feeds from external sources?
20:00:45 [k2pts]
i want to take a look
20:01:14 [davb]
sure.
20:01:32 [davb]
it is written for openacs 3 right now. no database, it just uses NSVs to store the content.
20:01:38 [k2pts]
btw, I don't think you'll need contracts for external feeds -- only a way to display them (like portlets but not necessarily)
20:01:44 [k2pts]
np
20:02:24 [k2pts]
s/display/provide
20:03:01 [k2pts]
is hazmat around or just logged in, in absentia?
20:03:01 [davb]
http://www.thedesignexperience.org/rss-nsd.tar.gz
20:03:01 [chump]
B: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/rss-nsd.tar.gz from davb
20:03:18 [davb]
B: Tcl procs to grab RSS in AOLserver
20:03:18 [chump]
commented item B
20:03:42 [hazmat]
well in a metaphysical sense, all three :)
20:03:44 [k2pts]
thx
20:04:01 [k2pts]
hey hazmat
20:04:09 [k2pts]
did you have a nice holiday break?
20:04:13 [k2pts]
how's the site going?
20:04:20 [davb]
* davb has an idea :)
20:04:30 [hazmat]
i just finished hooking up lucene to all comp.lang.python sweet. its blindlingly fast... suprising cause its java.
20:04:39 [hazmat]
k2pts: lonely but good.
20:04:48 [rzolf]
what is lucene.
20:04:50 [hazmat]
k2pts: contract work is keeping me busy.
20:04:53 [k2pts]
search engine
20:04:57 [hazmat]
www.lucene.com
20:05:03 [hazmat]
bbiab
20:05:15 [k2pts]
full text search engine that is
20:05:19 [rzolf]
i see.
20:05:49 [davb]
the RSS getter could offer a portal proc to grab the RSS feed. if it has not been grabbed before, it caches it. if its already in the cache it checks how long its been since. if its old it gets it again. as an option instead of scheduled procs to check every hour.
20:05:54 [k2pts]
davb: just have a template that lists items and then other packages can include in theis templates
20:06:09 [k2pts]
exactly, that's why I mentioned portlets above.
20:06:10 [davb]
k2pts: that sounds good.
20:06:18 [davb]
aha.
20:06:39 [k2pts]
you can later use the template to provide the data for the portlets
20:06:58 [k2pts]
after the portals package is released
20:07:25 [davb]
great
20:07:31 [k2pts]
of course you 'll need some way to register external sources but that's easy
20:08:15 [talli]
talli (talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs
20:08:21 [k2pts]
i have a lot of ambitious goals for this week related to oacs.
20:08:23 [k2pts]
hi talli
20:08:27 [talli]
hey guys
20:09:11 [k2pts]
talli: how are you?
20:09:24 [davb]
hi talli.
20:09:48 [talli]
k2pts: pretty good. i would be a lot better if the 49ers weren't so close to losing. but we have 2:15 and it's 3rd down for the packers...
20:10:08 [k2pts]
let's hope they'll win
20:10:10 [k2pts]
then
20:10:17 [hazmat]
* hazmat wishes vinod where here. ;)
20:10:22 [k2pts]
:)
20:10:56 [talli]
shit. now the game is over.
20:11:04 [talli]
the niners were so close. damn
20:11:21 [talli]
hazmat: i wish you pain and sorrow for the next ten minutes for saying that.
20:11:38 [talli]
k2pts: what are your ambitions for the week re: oacs?
20:11:39 [hazmat]
well someone needs to g(l)oat over it...
20:12:57 [k2pts]
first of all, I want to finish the search package but I have had some ideas w.r.t a generic ui package for handling page flows and views -- similar to what acs-service-contract was for services.
20:13:26 [davb]
k2pts: instead of workflow? or am I off?
20:13:34 [k2pts]
yeap
20:14:01 [k2pts]
also, I want to see how oacs can be improved using xml data where possible (give me a sec to explain)
20:15:47 [k2pts]
one example: content types (etp, cms, or any other content management system should be able to read an xml definition of the content type and create it. Most of the functionality is there but we haven't taken advantage of it. This will save time since we won't have to port from oracle to pg or any other db. Same holds for workflow schemas.
20:16:32 [Psychephylax]
Psychephylax (proxy@ool-18baab43.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #openacs
20:16:36 [Psychephylax]
:-D
20:16:44 [k2pts]
second: parameters that are not in the .info files (like RestrictErrorsToAdminsP)
20:16:54 [k2pts]
hi psyche*
20:17:32 [talli]
k2pts: the first would be totally amazing
20:17:47 [Psychephylax]
hey people
20:17:49 [talli]
so basically, you wouldn't have to do much programming to create a content type, right?
20:18:12 [talli]
all you need to do is use some XML and the thing is immediately created? perhaps build a couple of templates?
20:18:14 [Psychephylax]
Is 1390 firewire?
20:18:17 [k2pts]
it's not very difficult. Actually, etp includes most of the functionality already. We just need to use xml instead of tcl files.
20:18:34 [k2pts]
talli: right
20:18:43 [talli]
i've had quite a few reasonably long discussions with luke about CMS
20:18:51 [talli]
the basic end is that it's a shitty thing to do.
20:18:58 [hazmat]
k2pts: that would be great. oacs really needs more front end tools to take away some of the tedium of development.
20:19:20 [k2pts]
hazmat: these things will improve it by far.
20:19:22 [talli]
in order to get ETP to have the functionality that basic CMS tools have, there still needs to be a lot of dev
20:19:23 [hazmat]
k2pts: somebody posting to the dev bboards, is all interested in doing meta-framework tools.
20:19:40 [talli]
the best solution i can see is webDAV
20:19:43 [k2pts]
talli: I have some comments for etp if I may
20:19:48 [talli]
go ahead.
20:20:01 [talli]
ETP is better than the aD cms, but it's still not a finished product at all
20:20:12 [talli]
in fact, there may be a complete rewrite of it
20:20:24 [k2pts]
true. etp is a cms-lite and an aggregator-lite package as well. Here's what I mean:
20:21:16 [talli]
well, i bristle at "cms-lite" since it's capable of doing everything that the "full cms" of aD can do
20:21:21 [talli]
it just needs to be built
20:21:37 [k2pts]
IMHO, you need some kind of content central package to fill in the gaps.
20:22:26 [k2pts]
does that make sence? I'll explain about aggregators in a while
20:22:34 [k2pts]
s/sence/sense
20:23:03 [k2pts]
talli: I agree about the "full cms" comment
20:23:11 [talli]
k2pts: that may be true, but ETP was built to scratch one of our itches, which was a CMS that we could build quickly
20:23:27 [talli]
but the prob is that CMS is a really tough problem to do using a browser interface
20:24:11 [k2pts]
I like etp but it needs some kind of central content management interface. For example, an interface that shows all content sections.
20:24:14 [talli]
if we really need to build a CMS system, i think in the future we might spend time building webDAV into AOLserver than let the client use MS Word, Emacs, Dreamweaver, etc...
20:24:30 [talli]
k2pts: have you seen Jun Yamog's modetp?
20:24:33 [k2pts]
don't know much about webdav
20:25:04 [talli]
check out webdav here: http://www.webdav.org
20:25:06 [k2pts]
I was out of town for the past ten days. I have seen part of it and the postings
20:25:08 [k2pts]
thx
20:26:00 [talli]
a quick def of webdav:
20:26:00 [talli]
Why should I use DAV instead of FTP?
20:26:01 [talli]
A. Since DAV works over HTTP, you get all the benefits of HTTP that FTP cannot provide. For example: strong authentication, encryption, proxy support, and caching. It is true that you can get some of this through SSH, but the HTTP infrastructure is much more widely deployed than SSH. Further, SSH does not have the wide complement of tools, development libraries, and applications that HTTP does.
20:26:01 [talli]
DAV transfers (well, HTTP
20:26:02 [talli]
20:26:14 [talli]
DAV transfers (well, HTTP transfers) are also more efficient than FTP. You can pipeline multiple transfers through a single TCP connection, whereas FTP requires a new connection for each file transferred (plus the control connection).
20:26:25 [talli]
so webdav is basically FTP but secure and over HTTP
20:26:51 [talli]
Q. What are the major features and benefits?
20:26:52 [talli]
A. WebDAV provides a network protocol for creating interoperable, collaborative applications. Major features of the protocol include:
20:26:52 [talli]
Locking (concurrency control): long-duration exclusive and shared write locks prevent the overwrite problem, where two or more collaborators write to the same resource without first merging changes. To achieve robust Internet-scale collaboration, where network connections may be disconnected arbitrarily, and for scalability, since each open connection consumes server resources, the duration of DAV locks is independent of any individual
20:26:52 [talli]
network connection.
20:26:54 [talli]
Properties: XML properties provide storage for arbitrary metadata, such as a list of authors on Web resources. These properties can be efficiently set, deleted, and retrieved using the DAV protocol. DASL, the DAV Searching and Locating protocol, provides searches based on property values to locate Web resources.
20:26:58 [talli]
Namespace manipulation: Since resources may need to be copied or moved as a Web site evolves, DAV supports copy and move operations. Collections, similar to file system directories, may be created and listed.
20:27:01 [talli]
20:28:21 [k2pts]
about modetp: it looks very much like what I have had in mind (eventhough I was thinking about a second package but that will do)
20:28:50 [hazmat]
subversion is built on top of mod_dav, subversion.tigris.org
20:28:59 [talli]
yeah, subversion is really cool
20:29:06 [k2pts]
about webdav: I'll need to spent some more time with it.
20:29:12 [talli]
k2pts: i think that ETP and webdav would be a good mix
20:29:15 [k2pts]
s/with/reading about
20:30:08 [talli]
but i think you'll notice that a lot of it is exactly what you've been talking about. defining things with XML, indexing and search according to attributes, etc.
20:31:02 [talli]
also, there is a project to build webDAV libraries in C called neon: http://www.webdav.org/neon
20:32:00 [k2pts]
thx talli
20:32:38 [talli]
i guess that mod_dav is also in C
20:32:47 [k2pts]
talli: have you applied Jun's modifications to etp?
20:32:55 [talli]
mod_dav is the apache extension. in apache 2.0, webdav is built in
20:33:41 [talli]
k2pts: no, we haven't. according to luke, repackaging those fixes is a bit of a PITA because of the way that ETP is built, because they would have to be made available for oracle and PG and for other reasons
20:34:03 [talli]
i think that he and Jun are talking about rewriting the package in order to make it easier to put that stuff in
20:34:15 [talli]
if you're interested, you might want to email jun and luke
20:34:58 [k2pts]
sounds great, let us know of the outcome. I will as soon as I finish with the other stuff.
20:35:44 [rzolf]
what's up lieutenants?
20:36:09 [k2pts]
davb: are you working on the rss stuff already? :)
20:36:13 [talli]
k2pts: check this out: http://www.webdav.org/papers/
20:36:20 [talli]
hey rzolf.
20:36:37 [davb]
* davb catches up
20:36:38 [talli]
why don't you take your stinking python bias and go over to webware, huh? ;)
20:37:12 [rzolf]
i did. ;-)
20:37:43 [rzolf]
but alas, there is no webware irc channel. ;-)
20:38:01 [k2pts]
:)
20:38:49 [k2pts]
talli: great links you've got there
20:38:50 [rzolf]
hi k2pts. i am rolf.
20:39:05 [k2pts]
nice to meet you rolf
20:40:15 [davb]
k2pts: I have not had a chance to work on RSS for OpenACS 4
20:40:48 [k2pts]
I might give it a try later or tomorrow.
20:41:06 [davb]
k2pts: cool
20:41:36 [davb]
first I have to catch up on the non-openacs projects I have this week. Then hopefully I can get back on track.
20:42:54 [k2pts]
I'll try to do as much as possible this week on oacs. I'm going back to the university next week and I have a lot to do for my next research meeting.
20:44:33 [k2pts]
Have to head out guys. later.
20:44:37 [k2pts]
k2pts has left #openacs
20:45:36 [davb]
talli: so they are thinking about making it easier to extend and modify the ETP interfaces?
20:47:44 [talli]
yeah
20:48:04 [talli]
well, actually neophytos was talking about making it much easier to create content types
20:48:52 [talli]
so rather than having to create tcl code to describe the content type, you define an XML file which is transferred into the attributes
20:49:14 [davb]
very cool.
20:49:24 [davb]
then we need to write the tools to create the XML files :)
20:50:10 [talli]
i guess so :)
20:50:21 [talli]
but neophytos seems to think that most of the functionality is already there
20:50:37 [k2pts]
k2pts (~nkd@adsl-168-174.cytanet.com.cy) has joined #openacs
20:50:42 [talli]
he's back!
20:51:03 [talli]
k2pts: davb was just asking about your ambition to add the XML attribute creation thing
20:51:11 [k2pts]
I forgot to ask something. What do you think about my suggestion endictis. Nobody commented on it.
20:51:30 [hazmat]
what suggestion?
20:51:51 [talli]
you didn't explain aggregation :)
20:51:55 [k2pts]
the "time for a name change thread"
20:52:12 [talli]
oh,
20:52:19 [rzolf]
endicitis sounds like a skin condition. ;-)
20:52:19 [davb]
http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0003Ye
20:52:20 [chump]
C: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0003Ye from davb
20:52:27 [talli]
honestly, it sounds like a skin disorder :(
20:52:33 [hazmat]
indeed it does.
20:52:46 [k2pts]
talli: ok, in a minute. about xml: like you said it. only that you could use the xml for both cms and etp (likely for other packages)
20:53:27 [k2pts]
which did you like best?
20:53:28 [talli]
i still think that the best name i've heard is Zocalo, which pat colgan came up with
20:53:46 [talli]
i think i may have shot it down myself by stressing it sounds like zope too much
20:54:28 [hazmat]
i like openacs best. :-)
20:54:46 [talli]
yeah, i don;'t think it really matters anymore
20:54:52 [talli]
nobody knows about the system anyway
20:55:22 [hazmat]
i think people know about it, most choose not to use it for whatever reason.
20:55:22 [talli]
and i don't think that the name of the system is the biggest problem the community is facing right now
20:55:23 [k2pts]
hazmat: I did too until the whole community posted for a name change. That changed my mind, somewhat.
20:55:53 [hazmat]
k2pts: doesn't mean their right :)
20:56:07 [k2pts]
:)
20:56:20 [davb]
alot of the name change people have never contributed until then it seems :)
20:56:49 [talli]
that's because most of the people are marketing/ego wonks. like me :)
20:57:01 [k2pts]
* k2pts eagerly waits to hear talli talking about the biggest problem
20:58:56 [vinod]
vinod (~vinod@18.61.1.74) has joined #openacs
20:59:21 [davb]
hi vinod!
20:59:28 [talli]
vinod: congrats.
20:59:32 [talli]
i want to kill favre
20:59:36 [talli]
and mike mckenzie
20:59:39 [talli]
and tyrone williams
20:59:42 [vinod]
hey everyone
20:59:52 [vinod]
* vinod is ****so*** happy right now
21:00:07 [talli]
* talli is *******so********* heartbroken right now
21:00:07 [hazmat]
hi vinod
21:00:10 [vinod]
that was the coolest interception i've seen in a while
21:00:15 [vinod]
hey hazmat!
21:00:41 [vinod]
unfortunately, now we gotta play st.louis in st. louis on turf
21:01:02 [vinod]
* vinod kinda feels sorry for talli
21:03:06 [talli]
* talli rejects vinod's backhanded support!
21:04:37 [dlk]
dlk is now known as dead-man-walking
21:05:46 [k2pts]
hey vinod
21:11:17 [vinod]
hey k2pts
21:11:28 [vinod]
haven't seen ya here in a while
21:12:36 [k2pts]
I was out of town for the past few days...earlier I was working on my applications for graduate school
21:13:45 [talli]
k2pts: where do you want to go to grad school?
21:15:04 [talli]
whoa
21:15:09 [talli]
what are you looking to study?
21:15:35 [k2pts]
applications of intelligent computational tools
21:15:35 [vinod]
going for the small no-name schools, huh?
21:15:43 [vinod]
:-)
21:15:44 [k2pts]
:)
21:15:46 [rzolf]
mit considered harmful.
21:15:59 [rzolf]
what about UC Berkeley?
21:16:01 [vinod]
* vinod is at MIT right now (and feels harmed)
21:16:16 [rzolf]
or Stanford?
21:16:32 [rzolf]
(if you are gonna torture yourself, go where the weather's nice. ;-))
21:16:50 [k2pts]
I've been to Stanford for a month (Summer 2000).
21:17:02 [talli]
rolf, you seem to have developed the Bay Area disease. "there's no other place like it..."
21:17:11 [rzolf]
i know.
21:17:43 [rzolf]
i like all of the pacific northwest,though. its just that the bay area has more sunlight.
21:18:09 [talli]
bay area is nice, but there's no culture really
21:18:11 [talli]
it's all gone
21:18:17 [rzolf]
culture schmulture.
21:18:34 [talli]
wow. now you sound like a boca raton yid
21:18:44 [talli]
you really are a chameleon!
21:18:51 [rzolf]
indeed.
21:18:52 [rzolf]
;-
21:18:53 [rzolf]
)
21:19:27 [talli]
those are pretty good schools. did he mean you prob wouldn't get into Cal?
21:19:49 [rzolf]
grad school in math sciences at Cal is near impossible to get into.
21:20:08 [rzolf]
but then again, i'm not that sharp.
21:20:21 [talli]
it's probably much more difficult if you're from out of state
21:20:34 [talli]
if you're a CA citizen, it may be easier, not to mention cheaper
21:20:37 [rzolf]
talli: re: culture.
21:20:52 [rzolf]
NYC has a good city culture.
21:20:52 [talli]
k2pts: for CS or math?
21:20:57 [k2pts]
CS
21:21:09 [rzolf]
paris, similar.
21:21:16 [rzolf]
most cities in the US don't.
21:21:32 [rzolf]
so might as well move somewhere close to the beach. ;-)
21:21:45 [talli]
rzolf: you're right. although SF used to have culture which was destroyed by the dotcom/boomb
21:21:50 [rzolf]
actually bay area is a lot more "culturally interesting" than most places.
21:21:57 [rzolf]
even with the dotcom bomb.
21:22:16 [talli]
you're probably right, and i shouldn't really talk since i haven't lived there for 6 year
21:22:42 [talli]
but it doesn't seem the same as when i grew up. so i'm still a BA elitist, but one from a different era
21:22:52 [rzolf]
i'm sure.
21:22:55 [talli]
and anyway, i grew up in the cultural armpit of the Silicon Valley
21:23:05 [rzolf]
you have to realize that i'm basically from north dakota.
21:23:13 [rzolf]
and when i was a kid i was a "skate rat"
21:23:19 [rzolf]
so california is like valhalla.
21:23:29 [rzolf]
and SF is like asgaard.
21:23:31 [rzolf]
or whatever.
21:23:44 [rzolf]
so that's my perspective.
21:30:29 [rzolf]
rzolf has quit ("BitchX: its all day strong, all day long")
21:30:38 [rzolf]
rzolf (~rolf@67.32.238.80) has joined #openacs
21:45:13 [rzolf]
rzolf has quit ("[BX] Size DOES matter")
22:09:39 [k2pts]
k2pts has left #openacs
22:18:22 [davb]
Has anyone read "The Little Schemer"? I got it last night.
22:18:44 [talli]
what's it about?
22:21:24 [davb]
introduction to scheme programming language :)
22:21:38 [davb]
scheme is used is SICP
22:23:47 [davb]
it is supposed to teach you to think recursively
22:24:12 [talli]
hmmm... hear that vinod?
22:24:22 [talli]
it's supposed to help you think like vinod?
22:24:45 [davb]
I guess :)
22:25:12 [talli]
i'm disappointed in my own joke. damn
22:25:38 [talli]
davb, are you proposing to add another language to the language wars that have been going on in this channel lately?
22:25:42 [davb]
its sunday, rest so you can joke the rest of the week :)
22:25:45 [davb]
sure why not?
22:25:54 [talli]
good point :)
22:28:40 [vinod]
* vinod thinks like vinod
22:29:08 [vinod]
is 'the little schemer' a book?
22:29:19 [davb]
vimod: yes.
22:29:43 [davb]
so far it looks really good. helps you think in scheme so you can understand SICP (I hope :))
22:30:23 [vinod]
cool. sicp makes my head spins, but every once in a while the light bulb goes on and makes it worthwhile
22:30:43 [vinod]
* vinod wonders how many more cliche's he can use in a sentence
22:31:24 [talli]
* talli suggests that rather than say worthwhile, vinod say "it brings home the gravy-train"
22:31:31 [davb]
the little schemer was taken from an introductory course for people with no programming experience and an aversion to math
22:31:31 [vinod]
haha
23:13:23 [hazmat]
haskell
23:13:50 [hazmat]
i think i'd like to learn a pure functional language better, i think haskell will be it. some good books on it out there as well (dead tree variety).
23:14:40 [davb]
cool. I am planning on creating a computer science degree for myself so I figured SICP was a good one to start with.
23:15:18 [vinod]
what's functional programming? (in a nutshell)
23:15:20 [hazmat]
i'd like to go to uc berkeley, but i doubt i would get in (too much partying in undergrad;)
23:15:43 [hazmat]
vinod: describe the problem as oppossed to coding the solution.
23:18:10 [talli]
hazmat: where did you go for undergrad? UCSD?
23:18:29 [hazmat]
bah... no i'm east coast born and raised. william and mary.
23:19:26 [talli]
where'd you grow up on the East coast?
23:19:50 [talli]
and how'd you end up with a genius for a girlfriend?
23:22:44 [talli]
anyone know how much ERwin costs?
23:22:46 [hazmat]
:)
23:22:52 [hazmat]
Erwin: costs way too much.
23:23:06 [hazmat]
less than embarkdaro(sp?) though.
23:23:40 [hazmat]
i grew up mainly in virginia beach, though i spent some time in buffalo, conn., and jersey.
23:24:02 [talli]
we found this app from http://www.datanamic.com called Dezign
23:24:04 [hazmat]
as for the gf, we met in college, and i followed her out here... perhaps not the smartest thing.
23:24:10 [talli]
but i'm looking for alternatives
23:24:30 [hazmat]
for oracle ?
23:24:40 [talli]
PG or oracle, really
23:24:46 [talli]
but this Dezign app works for both
23:25:05 [talli]
wouldn't mind an opensource app that could do these things, though
23:25:16 [talli]
theKompany.com has something, but i don't think it's OSS
23:25:23 [talli]
do they generally make good apps?
23:25:47 [talli]
oh, did you gf study math at william and mary? what kind of stuff is she doing at caltech?
23:28:47 [til]
til has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:30:42 [talli]
hazmat: do you know if Tora will support PG at any point?
23:31:30 [hazmat]
yes, support already exists minimally now. more is coming.
23:31:59 [talli]
nice!
23:32:02 [talli]
is it a nice app?
23:34:00 [djg]
djg (~dirk@pD9E6B12B.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #openacs
23:36:36 [hazmat]
awesome.
23:37:34 [talli]
have you used it with PG at all yet?
23:38:20 [hazmat]
no, i read about pg support in the archives.
23:38:28 [hazmat]
on the phone at the moment. bbiab.
23:38:42 [talli]
ok
23:40:15 [dead-man-walking]
dead-man-walking is now known as dlk
23:43:18 [dlk]
dlk has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
23:43:21 [dario]
dario (dlk@as2-1-4.va.g.bonet.se) has joined #openacs
23:43:49 [dario]
dario is now known as dlk
23:47:07 [hazmat]
back
23:47:29 [hazmat]
pg support is being contributed by another programmer, i would consider it experimental at best.
23:48:11 [hazmat]
although hopefully it will improve over time. the tora project itself has been developed by basically 1 author over an incredibly short amount of time.
23:48:14 [talli]
yeah, i'm looking through the archives now
23:48:32 [hazmat]
there is an interesting article from the redhat consultant group that the author posted.
23:48:37 [talli]
RH is using it pretty heavily right now, so it may very well be that they will help port it so that it works with PG
23:48:47 [hazmat]
quite possibly.
23:48:50 [talli]
where is that article?
23:48:56 [hazmat]
not sure its in the archives.
23:48:58 [talli]
the guys at RH actually speak very higly of it
23:49:16 [hazmat]
yup. both those aren't programmers, those are consultants :-). big diff. imo.
23:49:44 [talli]
oh, whoops :)
23:49:59 [hazmat]
consider first that most red hat programmers are working on gnome, kernel...
23:50:08 [hazmat]
i haven't seen any contributions to pg yet from them.
23:50:41 [talli]
true enough
23:50:52 [talli]
but RH is putting alot of money into RH DB, too
23:51:19 [hazmat]
but where is that money going...
23:51:32 [talli]
on the front page there's a quote from RH IT about using TOra
23:52:12 [hazmat]
consulting and support... development will drive from customer requirements, but again i haven't seen any of them really do any talk on pg-hackers. (well 1 thread, but it was minor testing)
23:53:05 [talli]
yeah. but i think that they may win pretty big with RH DB
23:53:22 [talli]
i know for our clients being able to say that you can purchase PG from RH for 2300 is importnat
23:53:33 [talli]
i don't know why, but they like to buy things they can get for free :)
23:53:50 [talli]
but they really make their money in the support contracts
23:53:59 [talli]
i've seen the numbers they charge. it's kind of a joke
23:54:01 [hazmat]
i think they call that tendency business school.
23:54:41 [talli]
for 20K you get their basic offering, which essentially give you support if you want to know how to do a SELECT
23:55:04 [hazmat]
its money of open source software. which redhat has been pretty faithful to.
23:55:20 [talli]
for 44K, you get platinum support if all hell breaks loose, which seems to be the only one worth getting
23:55:37 [talli]
yes, RH has been good at that. mostly because they have so many zealots working there
23:55:47 [hazmat]
deriving revenue from an os business model is hard. support is pretty much their only revenue stream outside of consulting and custom dev, so it costs. makes sense to me.
23:56:06 [hazmat]
to some degree they get to bank of their name.
23:56:06 [talli]
i'm on a RH mailing list for educational software, and they are totally over the top.
23:56:21 [hazmat]
i don't know how many times people say i have linux 7.2 and i wanna scream!
23:56:24 [talli]
yeah, i agree. i think it's fine too. for pete's sake, that's how musea does it
23:57:13 [talli]
RH also does education, which is expensive as well.
23:57:23 [talli]
but i'm not sure that you can get that anywhere else
23:57:37 [talli]
i mean, the same kind of condensed linux education
23:57:57 [hazmat]
lots of places. ibm for one.
23:58:18 [hazmat]
but redhat has the largest linux centric training program i think.