00:01:06 LOUD 00:07:57 docwolf has quit () 00:08:05 davb (~chatzilla@alb-24-58-160-135.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 00:13:30 til has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 00:39:17 big stick 00:40:33 Psychephylax has quit ("Client Exiting") 00:54:13 talli has left #openacs 01:24:16 rzolf has quit ("Killed by gemini (Requested by panasync)") 01:41:51 Workiephylax has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:08:03 what's going on? 02:14:49 docwolf (~docwolf@adsl-20-167-11.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs 02:15:01 docwolf has left #openacs 02:17:45 That was quick 02:21:27 slow night 02:27:12 indeed 02:30:06 talli (talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 02:30:49 hi talli 02:30:56 hey davb 03:44:08 talli has left #openacs 03:45:34 davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.5 [Mozilla rv:0.9.7/20011221]") 05:00:53 talli (talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 06:04:31 talli has left #openacs 06:37:30 til (~tils@62.116.25.202) has joined #openacs 06:52:54 dlk (dlk@garrison.ita.chalmers.se) has joined #openacs 08:06:37 jim (~jim@12-233-187-5.client.attbi.com) has joined #openacs 09:41:29 http://openacs.org/sdm/one-baf.tcl?baf_id=1287 09:41:30 A: http://openacs.org/sdm/one-baf.tcl?baf_id=1287 from jim 09:42:28 A:|fix applied to wp-slim allowing html tags 09:42:29 titled item A 10:05:58 split 12:22:34 jim has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:29:28 jim (~jim@12-233-187-5.client.attbi.com) has joined #openacs 13:39:47 davb (~dave@cm-208-136-23-203.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 13:40:01 ola (~ola@as3-1-3.mal.s.bonet.se) has joined #openacs 13:40:16 davb has changed the topic to: Openacs: Free Web Toolkit http://openacs.org 13:40:18 hi ola 13:40:22 hi davb! 13:40:38 I'm making a patch :-) 13:40:58 hope you didn't started as well...? 13:41:10 no :) 13:41:11 s/started/start 13:41:19 great! 13:42:18 yes. also, I'm working on getting the docs to show in /doc. 13:42:41 they don't? (I never looked :) 13:43:44 someone forgot a "/" in front of the documentation-path, but it still won't work after I apply one... 13:43:56 (in the info-file...) 13:43:56 weird 13:44:42 I even dropped the package and reinstalle3d it, but to no avail:-) 13:45:20 ...looking at the /doc code right now 13:47:05 ola: the docs belong in packages/clickthrough/www/doc 13:47:11 the are in packages/clickthrough/doc 13:47:16 dave, I'm expecting visitors very soon. you'll have a patch by the evening, I hope (unless you want to ask Don B to give me cvs access) 13:47:16 did you move them? 13:47:30 Cool. 13:47:32 nope 13:47:39 I think that will work. 13:47:41 :) 13:47:44 Psychephylax (proxy@ool-18baab43.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #openacs 13:47:47 :-D 13:47:51 hi Psychephylax 13:47:54 ola: thanks! 13:48:04 np. 13:48:08 Hey guys 13:48:12 morning Psychephylax 13:48:14 Any of you good in networking 13:48:39 not really. what do you need? 13:48:53 I'm not, but let's here... 13:48:57 I have more public ip addresses now... 13:49:05 s/here/hear 13:49:09 :-) 13:49:18 cool. what do you want to do with them? 13:49:32 So, I don't know if it's better to give each machine a public IP or put one machine with a firewall and the rest behind a router 13:49:59 depends on what they do. If they aren't providing services to the outside, I would put them behind the router 13:50:19 it's funny 13:50:23 I have 4 computers :) 13:50:26 1 - My mom's 13:50:40 2 - my mail..etc server only a p200 13:50:44 3 - my gaming machine 13:50:49 4 - my regular machine 13:51:11 Now, my mom doesn't know anything about security so I'm thinking that should go behind a router 13:51:22 good plan 13:51:25 welcome to the club, Psychephylax:-) I also have 4 (but no laptop:-() 13:52:14 but i need one computer that I can establish connections to people with routers with 13:52:20 ola: are you interested in a webalizer package for OpenACS 4? 13:53:06 I will have to learn permissions so you can set who can look at the reports. 13:53:06 davb: sure 13:53:53 Psychephylax: what OS are they running? 13:54:17 I just use ipfilter or whatever the linux packet filter is these days. 13:54:37 1 - Win2K Pro 13:54:43 2 - FreeBSD 4.3 13:54:49 3 - WinXP 13:54:54 aiiigghh! 13:54:56 4 - WinXP, Win2K, Mandrake 13:54:58 ok Easy. 13:55:07 Put the windows machines behind a firewall/router. 13:55:08 Psychephylax: you know you can do with just one IP with IP-masquerading, right? 13:55:15 Yep. 13:55:16 yes 13:55:23 cool;-) 13:55:30 But I bugged our Cisco admins for 255 ips for a reason :) 13:55:44 Now even my toaster can go online! 13:55:47 Ok. put the Windows XP machines behind a firewall. 13:55:58 Win 2000 I don't know about... 13:56:15 FreeBSD I am sure has something. Use that to connect to outside machines. 13:56:34 that one has a firewall :) 13:56:39 Ok. 13:57:15 I am going to just setup a spare linux box tfor a firewall router. Then I will plug everything except the web/mail server into that. 13:57:45 of course, I only have 3 IP addresses :) 13:58:00 hehe 13:58:11 It pays to work for an ISP :) 13:59:00 Cool 13:59:02 I figured it out 13:59:21 CM --> Hub then I have a router, freebsd, win2k box into that 13:59:30 and into the router I plug in my XP and my mom's machine 13:59:51 I just need to replace the hub with a 10/100 switch and I am set 14:00:01 now I must go to work 14:01:27 davb: why don't you keep the webserver protected behind the firewall? 14:01:34 too lazy :) 14:01:37 heh 14:01:42 It runs ipchains. 14:02:08 the firewall? 14:02:27 the webserver also. it firewalls itself. 14:02:38 aha! 14:02:46 I am going to setup coyote linux floppy version on the P120 I have now. 14:02:56 9:16AM up 171 days, 28 mins, 1 user, load averages: 1.00, 0.97, 0.68 14:02:57 woo! 14:02:59 Then I need to find a really small case to stuff it in. 14:02:59 :-D 14:03:02 Can't wait for 200 14:03:11 I want to switch to ip-tables... 14:03:48 I did on my development machine. 14:15:58 ola: ipchains not working for ya? 14:16:36 yes it does. 14:17:03 well, ok... if you still want to upgrade tho, here's a sorta painless way 14:17:13 compile you a 2.4 kernel 14:17:47 and include ip_tables as a -module-, and activate all the little module pieces 14:17:58 also include ipchains as a module 14:18:22 that way you can gradually work your way ove4r 14:18:43 cool. I didn't know ipchains worked under 2.4 :) 14:18:53 aha. so that I can still run ipchains on 2.4.X...., cool 14:19:16 (the only gotcha is ipchains and iptables won't let each other be loaded, so you'd have to get rid of all the ipchains stuff before you could load any iptables stuff 14:20:09 s/get rid of/unload the modules of/ 14:22:28 jim: do you know if there are any good, strong, "rule-sets" "out there", that you may use as a starting point? (the IP-chains HOWTO is excellent, but I dont think it's been updated to cover ip-tables...) 14:22:55 in debian, there is a package called ipmasq 14:23:02 yeah! I reinstalled and ETP works for the home page (I have no idea what I did different) 14:23:19 ola: i use pmfirewall for ipchains. 14:23:35 but there is no version for iptables yet... 14:24:03 ipmasq is really a fairly general arrangement for you to create whatever firewall you want 14:24:13 argh, now its broken? 14:24:34 * davb is annoyed 14:25:11 I wonder why it worked once... 14:25:12 wht's etp do exactly? 14:26:10 it is a content management package. There is a trick to allow it to edit the home page even though its mounted somewhere else. except it doesn't work right anymore. 14:26:59 http://ova.zkm.de/perl/ova-raplayer?id=1004655218&base=ova.zkm.de 14:26:59 B: http://ova.zkm.de/perl/ova-raplayer?id=1004655218&base=ova.zkm.de from djg_ 14:27:12 here's a real movie broadcast with bo leuf... 14:27:23 one of the wiki wiki core developers... 14:27:29 etp is kinda similar i think 14:27:40 a little, but different. 14:28:24 etp is basically a user interface to the content repository. 14:28:46 * jim reboots... 14:28:55 the idea of wiki wiki sounded very appealing 14:29:06 jim has quit ("[x]chat") 14:32:03 ETP can be used to build a wiki application, but that is not all it can do. 14:32:41 yeah, wiki wiki has no permissioning at all 14:32:55 and bo leuf pointed out that if it had permissioning it wouldnt work 14:33:01 exactly. ETP you can make editable by the public if you wish. 14:33:13 djg_ is now known as djg 14:33:22 but wiki wiki sounded like it worked 10 years ago...today?! 14:33:25 right. wiki it a completely different concept. It works great for the things I have seen it used as. 14:33:25 dunno 14:34:33 which ones do you know? 14:34:38 i only know c2.com 14:35:03 there is a Tcl Wiki, and a Python wiki that I know of. 14:35:15 oh yeah and emacswiki.org 14:35:19 which rules too 14:35:25 sometimes hard to find exactly what you are looking for, but you always find something interesting :) 14:35:36 yeah, but that's what it is about 14:35:44 wiki=quick, informal in hawaiian english 14:36:46 http://www.carinasoft.com/voyager3.html 14:36:47 C: http://www.carinasoft.com/voyager3.html from davb 14:36:54 C:|Cool, but not cheap astronmy software 14:36:54 titled item C 14:52:25 I wonder if a portal-like solution would be better for my home page. Then I could add junk from different packages/sections to the home page. 14:52:33 ie. a little bboard, a little etp, etc... 14:53:37 acs-based? 14:53:47 openacs anyway :) 14:54:43 talli (talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 14:54:49 howdy talli! 14:55:00 morning guys 15:06:42 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.116.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 15:10:33 http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=498&page=all 15:10:33 D: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=498&page=all from davb 15:10:46 D:|Simply GNUstep, Delivers UNIX, Simply 15:10:46 titled item D 15:10:58 D: alpha version of simply gnustep 15:10:58 commented item D 15:11:07 D: download, burn a CD and boot! 15:11:07 commented item D 15:11:27 D: but not quite yet :) 15:11:27 commented item D 15:11:47 D: [Simply GNUstep project page|http://simplygnustep.sourceforge.net/] 15:11:48 commented item D 15:21:24 D:[download here|http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=29640&release_id=67971] 15:21:24 commented item D 16:20:14 djg has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:28:27 talli has left #openacs 17:04:42 denshi (~chatzilla@adsl-216-62-223-193.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs 17:04:56 dlk has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 17:05:57 morning 17:06:06 dave: we need to move the clickthrough/doc/ dir to clickthrough/www/doc _and_ either rename blah-requirements.html index.html or create a separate index page... both these actions are required for the docs to show in /doc... 17:06:12 hi denshi. 17:07:22 djg (~dirk@pD9E6B96E.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #openacs 17:15:38 hi denshi. 17:15:59 ola: ok. probably there should be a simple index page with links to the other pages. 17:16:26 I will bug rbm later to add you to the CVS, I think Don is super busy :) 17:16:27 ok. there's only one page to link to ... 17:16:40 ok...but it would be better form :) 17:16:47 more consistent anyway. 17:17:29 we can ask rbm if he shows up. 17:18:32 * rbm senses his name being spoken of and materializes in the channel 17:18:42 wow! 17:18:49 great. I'll just copy one of the simpler index pages then:-) and add that to clickthrough.info... 17:18:55 ok thanks! 17:18:56 hello rbm! 17:19:43 davb: np:-) 17:21:42 davb: So we need to add ola to what dir? 17:21:54 rbm: clickthrough please 17:23:42 I really need to work on that category thing. I want to categorize stuff I will be putting in ETP. Maybe even figure out a way to categorize the chump log. 17:25:41 davb: do you have other things you'd like me to fix/add in clickthrough? 17:26:13 50x? 17:26:16 oops 17:26:17 ola: not really, I never used it. It was just a training exercise to get experience with porting :) 17:26:52 wow, has anyone ever heard of HTTP code 301, page permanently moved? 17:27:01 yes 17:27:23 It seems a browser should detect it and rewrite bookmarks etc.. also seems search engines should update their records. 17:27:39 packages/clickthrough? 17:27:42 Is there support in OpenACS for it? I will probably be moving a whole bunch of stuff. 17:27:47 rbm yes, sorry :) 17:28:44 ola: Okay, you should be able to commit on clickthrough now 17:28:52 thanks rbm! 17:29:10 rbm: thanks. 17:29:24 np 17:29:34 both my IDE cdroms are busted :-( 17:29:46 rbm: :( 17:29:59 I have quite a collection of broken CDrom drives myself. 17:30:17 can I have one? 17:30:20 in fact, I would say almost 50% of the ide cdroms I have purchase have failed. 17:30:21 I need a place to play my broken CDs 17:30:22 I can't believe how easy these IDEs break 17:30:43 anyone has a No Doubt Tragic Kingdom CD? 17:32:26 My wife bought that CD, and the next day she stepped on it and broke it. 17:33:23 So I'm looking for someone that has the CD so I can make a copy of it (since I already paid for the copyright royalties) 17:34:28 nope 17:36:38 :( 17:36:50 This copy-protection crap the RIAA is pulling is disgusting 17:37:01 Burn all the napster/kazaa/morpheus users 17:39:56 ARGH! 10:45. Have class in 45 mins. Must get ready. 17:42:03 anybody know anything about WebObjects? I have heard good things about it. not anything specific, just noticed people saying they like it. 17:42:51 I've not done anything with it 17:42:56 stepwise has somea rticles about it 17:43:00 http://stepwise.com 17:43:00 E: http://stepwise.com from markd2 17:43:09 E:| StepWise - Nextstep / cocoa resources 17:43:10 titled item E 17:43:27 thanks. 17:51:01 markdfoo (~Snak@r-41.116.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 18:01:04 davb has quit () 18:04:49 dlk (dlk@as2-1-4.va.g.bonet.se) has joined #openacs 18:05:59 markd2 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 18:06:11 dlk is now known as God 18:06:15 God is now known as dlk 18:09:38 talli (~talli@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #openacs 18:10:44 hi talli 18:12:31 vinod (~vinod@207-172-255-115.s1131.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs 18:12:55 hey denshi. how's it going? 18:13:15 i was thinking about our conversation the other night, and the convo that took place shortly thereafter 18:13:21 about how difficult OACS is to debug. 18:13:35 markdfoo is now known as markd2 18:14:02 that, mixed with ruby (which is supposedly a better perl), your ideas about eclipse and your ideas about building a better pset group, i have a new idea 18:14:21 but i don't know how easy it is to put together, or whether it's particularly good at all 18:14:32 ready for it, after that long and involved intro? 18:14:51 gimme 5 minutes. It's a slow day at work, but I'm in something atm. 18:14:58 ok 18:15:23 * vinod grumbles about having to wait 5 minutes for Talli's Great Idea (TM) 18:16:12 talli needs to hype it more 18:16:17 "the greatest pset idea ever!" 18:16:25 "pset lust factor 30!" 18:16:26 it's better than that! 18:16:41 .pset 18:16:49 * talli puts on his top hat and picks up his snake oil bottle 18:27:00 brb. need to get some lunch 18:28:30 doh! 18:31:11 heh 18:31:14 now we'll never know 18:31:39 don't worry - it's just a marketing technique. vapourware at its best :-) 18:31:49 now we can start making rumour websites 18:32:07 i' 18:32:16 i'll start on the anti-rumor website. 18:32:41 I'll go doctor up a document and make it look real 18:32:57 i'll submit it to slashdot 18:33:31 bill gates will be knocking on talli's door by this evening 18:33:35 could someone leak a microsoft memo about crushing talli? 18:33:58 no one would believe it 18:34:13 davb (~dave@cm-208-136-23-203.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 18:35:53 arhg: I missed missing talli's idea 18:36:49 * talli is back, but is now pissed that everybody has spent almost significant time thinking about how to destroy his reputation 18:37:14 * talli is considering only participating in the third person from now on 18:37:47 davb has changed the topic to: OpenACS: when you care to think the very worst 18:39:12 denshi: you back yet? 18:39:16 yup. 18:39:29 so my idea... 18:40:02 i was thinking that it might be worth the effort to build tools that would provide a better way to debug OACS 18:40:17 namely, tools that could break down and perhaps organize AOLserver logs better 18:41:19 It shouldn't be impossible. How about a "debug-this-page" link? 18:41:28 since we can't really touch tcl debugging because it would be such a hassle, and i assume AOLserver logs are just big text files, i would imagine using perl or ruby to eat up and spit out the results 18:42:34 my idea is over, btw 18:42:55 sounds good. That should be in any set of oacs tools. 18:43:19 but this could be very helpful for the beginner (and the expert) because they would have easier, faster and more legible results when leaerning about how the system works 18:43:54 talli you could write a tcl lib that wraps some file logging routines and make the config in nsd.tcl 18:44:00 since perl (and by extension ruby i assume) is particularly good at text manipulation, i figured this would be the best way to do it 18:44:27 the problem with post processing log files, is that its another extra step. 18:44:28 hazmat: well, i guess we could do it in tcl, too :) 18:44:43 whats really wanted is configurable subsystem logs going to different locations. 18:44:55 hazmat: thats a good idea. 18:45:05 markd2 mentioned the other day that there were some debugging tools in aolserver 2 that might be revived in 4 18:45:15 hazmat: well, there's another app/tool 18:45:57 yeah. ns_modlog, and having nssock / the request handler instrumented to use it 18:46:46 markd2: is that what was in aolserver2 or that's what would be nice? 18:48:04 i think he meant both. 18:48:09 cool 18:48:59 so denshi, perhaps this would be a project that would be worth looking at before building the prototyping tools and rewriting the psets? 18:49:24 that's what was in aolserver 2 18:50:00 I think it supplements prototyping tools, and can also stand alone with what we have now. But it doesn't supersede ptypers. 18:50:09 ok. 18:50:38 Also, I really want to see what they will do with nsd4; those logging hooks would be hella sweet. 18:51:13 cvs checkout 18:51:55 hella, huh? spent a little too much time in the Bay Area, did ya denshi? 18:52:22 Another thing to add to the debugging tools is a configuration to force nsd to return anything it possibly can on error -- i've always been annoyed at switching windows and vgrepping the log to see where and error lies. The webserver should work harder here. 18:53:13 ola has quit ("changing universes") 18:53:15 I don't know where I picked up 'hella'....but I could use more time in the Bay Area if you ask me. 18:55:51 i'm always been amazed about how clean the aolserver source looks. 18:56:32 regarding nsd returning errors; one thing that caught my eye on Yahoo Stores was that on a break (Y.S. was written in LISP) the runtime returns that nifty LISP interpreter at the current execution level....so you can trace the bug with the users' own data, which is open and running right in front of you. I've wanted something similar since. 18:57:20 aaaiiiiiggghhhh: not Yahoo Store! 18:57:20 hazmat: me too - even i can understand it (kinda) 18:57:36 * davb hides behind vinod 18:58:24 does anyone know whats up with nssoap.sf.net and nsgraph.sf.net ? 18:58:27 * vinod reassures davb that the Yahoo Store is on a leash and won't bite 18:59:03 there is an intersting paper by the author of yahoo store, about using lisp. 18:59:09 * hazmat digs for the paper 18:59:23 yes, but it's still torture to program the thing... 18:59:40 Can't take my friends anywhere :-/ 18:59:42 http://www.paulgraham.com/lib/paulgraham/sec.txt 18:59:42 F: http://www.paulgraham.com/lib/paulgraham/sec.txt from hazmat 18:59:49 We just went to get japanese 19:00:05 nssoap I am planning on looking at real soon now. its based on tclsoap so hopefully we can use nssoap for SOAP and XmlRPC 19:00:05 the Miso soup didn't fly with them very well 19:00:18 F: Beating the Averages, the story of lisp and yahoo stores. moral, always use the most powerful tools at hand. 19:00:19 commented item F 19:00:30 * denshi bites davb 19:00:50 * Psychephylax kicks denshi 19:01:09 * denshi clings to the ceiling 19:01:19 * vinod starts spraying valium into the channel 19:01:27 * dlk moves off to a safe distance... 19:01:31 * hazmat sleeps 19:01:41 lol 19:01:43 * Psychephylax eats Valiums 19:01:59 * talli runs takes a few shots of whiskey and tries to get to the source of vinod's drugs... 19:02:31 anyway, how difficult do these debugging applications seem to be? (in whatever language is chosen) 19:02:58 that question doesn't make sense to me. 19:03:10 adding in the logging shouldn't be to hard. 19:03:26 well, nssoap and nstcl have nice logos 19:03:26 although i'm not sure about passing file handles between tcl interps. 19:03:34 s/nstcl/nsgraph 19:03:35 but no code 19:03:37 sorry for not making sense. too much valium 19:03:50 hazmat: main thing is nssoap has an aolserver C module interface to the Expat XML parser. 19:04:07 wasn't it supposed to be released months ago? 19:04:15 hazmat: so if you use it with OpenACS you get two xml parsers :) 19:04:27 i'd rather have expat. 19:04:30 hazmat: maybe, I don't know. Its in CVS. 19:04:34 * Psychephylax goes to the lab to finish ghosting IAs 19:04:36 wow. ok 19:04:52 * hazmat cvs co 19:05:07 why is Psychephylax muttering about Japanese? 19:05:19 I think it worked for what they needed and they are busy :) 19:05:27 oh, nevermind. 19:05:32 Me? 19:05:36 Because we just had some :) 19:05:40 mmmm...raw fish 19:05:58 davb: who is they? 19:06:40 whoever wrote it :) Mainly Lee Teague who I have emailed 19:06:59 hazmat: "You know, 'them'. 'The Bastards'." 19:07:45 denshi: eclipse does look very slick 19:07:52 it never ceases to amaze me tht people write real programs in tcl 19:07:55 * hazmat ducks 19:08:15 heh 19:08:23 hey it works :) 19:08:36 Some people apparently actually like it :) 19:09:05 * vinod shyly raises his hand 19:09:16