01:12:23 davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 01:15:26 any debian folk around who can tell me where the X include files live? 01:20:30 well, i have a dir /usr/X11R6/include/X11, but i don't have anything in there. maybe there's a -dev pkg that has the headers? 01:48:44 maybe. I'll have to look harder :) 01:54:29 darn, everyone on debian is ignoring me :( 01:54:41 and I can;t find anything on www.debian.org 02:01:26 is there a specific file you're looking for? 02:02:16 no. I am trying to compile something and it says it can't find the x11 include directory. I tried /usr/include and a couple others, but I didn't see anything. 02:03:45 talli has left #openacs 02:04:28 hmmm... any clues in the Makefile as to where it's looking for the include dir? 02:05:41 its looking for Xos.h 02:05:52 it checks /usr/include... 02:05:57 I don't have it at all. 02:10:31 i think it might be in xlib6g-dev 02:10:42 cool. 02:11:01 http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_contents.pl?word=Xos.h&searchmode=searchfiles&case=insensitive&version=stable&arch=i386 02:13:36 thanks. 02:13:45 I didn't know you could search for files :) 02:14:26 there's supposed to be a way to do it with 'apt-cache search', but i always forget the syntax 02:14:40 apt-cache search Xos.h -> no results 02:14:49 that only works if its on your machine :) 02:14:57 ahhh 02:15:53 hmmmm. locate Xos.h still returns no results... 02:16:10 locate depends on a db that's built once a day 02:16:21 you have to do 'updatedb' to update the db 02:16:41 ah 02:16:55 I learned _two_ things today :) 02:17:07 markd2 (~Snak@r-41.16.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 02:17:10 haha - it's mutual 02:17:29 ah cool. 02:17:46 sounds kinky 02:17:55 I found this website 02:17:59 cool it - markd2's back 02:18:01 http://www.linuxforkids.org 02:18:01 C: http://www.linuxforkids.org from davb 02:20:49 argh ximian messed things up... 02:24:05 aha. if I put the ximain source before the debian one, it gets the ximian version of the packages... 02:34:12 davb has quit ("Client Exiting") 02:43:59 docwolf (~docwolf@adsl-20-167-11.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs 02:51:33 DON'T GET XIMIAN! 02:51:47 whoa 02:51:52 that's some endorsement 02:51:53 don't monkey around with ximian 02:51:54 what's going on? 02:51:58 HOLY CRAP! My new printer, and gimp-print ROCK 02:52:00 Installed and setup the printer in no time. 02:52:08 I find the gnome folks annoying to start out with. 02:52:10 which is why I stick with macs 02:52:38 docwolf: Before you came in, davb was talking about installing Ximian gnome 02:53:01 it's bad? 02:53:18 Yeah. It'll screw things up. 02:53:57 the thing that's annoying about ximian 02:54:02 is that i just want to use Evolution 02:54:13 .. but can't, because to install it on its own is a baffling ordeal 02:57:25 docwolf: apt-get install evolution 02:58:18 rbm: i don't think that will work with mandrake 02:58:29 also, those ximian dudes weren't thinking straight 02:58:36 Evo should be cross-platform 02:58:57 because many of us windows users don't want to use outlook, but have no choice. 02:59:11 and as I found out today, Mac Office is fundamentally crippled by MS 02:59:18 and cannot do scheduling with PC clients 02:59:18 docwolf: The Gimp was ported to Windows, so I think a version for it will show up soon 02:59:41 davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 02:59:53 rbm: really?! that would be awesome 03:00:00 docwolf: You just have to get an apt-enabled rpm repository and you should be able to. I use apt in a Mandrake box I help a guy with. 03:00:37 We have apt/rpm-enabled servers here, but I don't think we have mandrake stuff. We have RH 7.2. 03:01:12 rbm: cool. Hey, evoluion is GPL'd right? i wonder if any wacko really _is_ working on a windows port.. 03:02:16 evo is gpl'd? 03:02:25 i thought all the gnome stuff was lgpl. 03:02:55 * hazmat betrays his ignorance of gnome 03:04:15 http://news.gnome.org/gnome-news/1007408878/1007571784/1007699004/index_html 03:04:16 D: http://news.gnome.org/gnome-news/1007408878/1007571784/1007699004/index_html from docwolf 03:04:22 talli (talli@talli.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 03:04:32 argh. I already installed ximian. am I in really big trouble? 03:04:50 Everything else is just the way I like it. I would hate to have to reinstall again :( 03:04:57 evo is gpl'd 03:05:02 dotLRN is coming :) 03:06:31 where? 03:06:43 end of the month :) 03:07:03 cool 03:07:33 using jython almost makes using java bearable. 03:07:43 interesting. 03:08:10 hazmat: will acs-service-contract (eventually) make it easier to use python with say OpenACS? 03:08:28 or any other langauage... 03:09:10 altering acs-service-contract to allow other languages is definitely doable (support to some xtent exists) but it must be callable from tcl and vice versa (to use other contracts within the language) 03:09:22 but that really doesn't make a language a first class citizen. 03:09:23 ok. 03:09:36 i see. 03:10:13 altering the request processor and templating to support python was a major pita, in which i succedded only partially. but i've stopped work on that effort. 03:10:36 right. 03:10:40 when the language can be used to drive content pages and access the acs api than i think it can be called a first class citizen. 03:10:55 I was thinking more of using other languages for background services. 03:11:22 not anything specific, just the idea popped into my head :) 03:11:26 * markd2 wants to use fortran 03:12:37 markd2 is always on the cutting edge 03:12:52 wouldn't that be paper cut...from the punch cards? 03:12:58 * markd2 mumbles something about kids these days 03:13:16 * vinod throws eggs at markd2's fort(ran) and runs 03:13:36 heh 03:13:38 have you seen markd2 snow fort(ran)? 03:13:58 i saw the 2 headed snow monster! 03:14:55 so far there were more bugs in my webalizer script than lines of code... 03:15:07 :) 03:15:23 sounds like you're cut out for C programming! 03:15:30 davb: adding language support to acs-sc is pretty easy to allow for background services (depending on what kind), the only thing that needs to be altered is the dispatch function as i recall and the table constraint on languages. 03:15:43 cool. 03:16:07 anyway it definitely needs to allow pl/sql as a lanaguage. 03:16:48 i hope i don't embarrass myself with this question, but can someone please explain to me what the acs-sc is? 03:17:01 service contract 03:17:24 * hazmat returns to a java dungeon. 03:17:27 yes, i know. but what does it do? 03:17:45 * hazmat returns temporarily 03:18:10 its interface definition and dispatch system to allow for component based development in the acs. 03:18:50 so things like java beans 03:18:52 or fortran fossils? 03:19:24 hazmat: whoof. ever thought of being a technical writer? 03:19:37 hazmat: can you perhaps offer an example? i'd appreciate it. 03:20:08 mark2d: not quite, its a bit more lightweight than that. doesn't really allow for object references yet, its mainly used and implemented as simple function dispathcing at the moment. 03:21:25 cool 03:23:00 talli: take the search system as an example an package, the search package defines provider and indexing interfaces ( i haven't looked in a while so this is probably in err). a package can define which of its contents are to be searched by providing a provider implementation, and different indexer implementations can be plugged in to allow for different search engines. 03:23:27 i see. 03:24:00 so the bboards would provide some details about what the search package should index? 03:25:09 yes, you could only index threads by yourself in a provider implementation. not true in reality because the bboards uses the cr which provides a generic provider implementation 03:26:32 * hazmat returns to the dungeon. 03:26:51 * talli thanks hazmat and wishes him luck with the dragon of java 03:27:03 * vinod locks the key this time 03:27:10 :-) 03:27:24 * hazmat pounds on the door, screaming 'let me out' 03:27:55 * markd2 passes an anonymous inner class under the door 03:28:32 a-ha! so markd2 is still under the influence of the Java Lords 03:28:50 I'm dividing my time 3-way between java, oracle, and cocoa 03:29:02 cocoa java - mmmmm 03:29:07 markd2: how do you like cocoa? 03:29:14 it rocks my universe 03:29:20 it's based on objective-C, right? 03:29:21 I picked up the new Hillegass book 03:29:22 yep 03:29:28 M 03:29:30 i heard that's a cool language 03:29:41 is it easy to build apps with? 03:29:42 it's as brief as java is big 03:30:03 is cocoa a language or a framework? 03:30:13 cocoa is the framework, objective C is the language 03:30:17 but they're pretty much synonymous 03:30:31 i see. what kind of apps are you building? 03:30:31 I don't think anyone else uses objective C 03:30:40 right now, little tutorial thingies 03:30:40 Objective-C is cool 03:30:45 so it's like powerplant? 03:30:46 and... what's the diff between cocoa and carbon? 03:30:54 markd2: GNUstep uses ObjC 03:31:09 cocoa == nextstep, which is what GNUstep is trying to emulate 03:31:13 so still pretty much the same thing 03:31:27 carbon is the old "classic" mac APIs 03:31:35 very procedural, kind old and crufty 03:31:45 cocoa is an OO framework 03:31:56 which really leverages the coolness of objective C 03:32:32 * davb needs a mac 03:32:50 what do you need to develop in cocoa (besides a mac)? 03:33:33 os/x 03:33:41 the OS box comes with thedevtools 03:33:44 which is all you need 03:33:56 that is cool 03:34:06 schweet 03:34:22 the next devtools rev comes with ASS (heh) 03:34:26 AppleScript Studio 03:34:34 from what I can tell is using the cocoa libraries from applescript 03:35:03 which, if true, and if it doesn't suck, will really lower the development bar 03:35:18 * vinod looks up at the development bar 03:35:57 * markd2 bellies up to the development bar 03:36:10 * davb takes the elevator up 60 floors to the development bar. 03:36:46 * markd2 is glad he didn't mention the development foo 03:36:53 haha 03:36:54 speaking of the development bar, anyone have a reference to a reasonable tutorial about entity relationship diagrams? 03:40:26 well until tomorrow... 03:40:39 does this help? http://www.smartdraw.com/resources/centers/software/erd.htm 03:40:48 davb has quit ("Client Exiting") 03:41:05 i saw that stuff 03:41:14 thanks. i didn't look directly at that 03:41:35 np 03:59:21 has anyone used ER diagrams for development purposes? 03:59:33 nope 03:59:38 nope 03:59:43 I don't do well with big formal diagrams 04:00:03 usually they'er just a "look! I 've been doing work" thing for folks screwing around with some CASE tool 04:00:10 i see. 04:00:32 but in your situation, if the client wants 'em, then you gotta make 'em 04:00:32 a client has requested them from us, and luke found an app that translates an ER diagram into a SQL data model 04:00:45 yeah, that's pretty much a cardinal truth 04:01:16 maybe make it the other way aruond 04:01:27 make your sql data model, then 'reverse engineer' the ER diagram from it 04:01:36 i was just wondering whether they were worth spending money on apps that do these things 04:01:54 i think this app does both, one way or the other 04:01:59 cool 04:02:08 I'm a retrogrouch when it comes to those things 04:02:15 if it's a small enough problem, you can look at the sql 04:02:28 talli has left #openacs 04:02:38 if it's a big enough problem, your ER diagram will cover pages with tiny boxes and hundreds of lines 04:02:40 rendering it useless 04:02:44 talli (talli@talli.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 04:02:49 [11:04] if it's a big enough problem, your ER diagram will cover pages with tiny boxes and hundreds of lines 04:02:49 [11:04] rendering it useless 04:02:52 whoops, sorry 04:02:54 closed the wrong window 04:03:00 and here I was about to unleash my invective 04:03:39 well, the nice thing about it is that it seems to provide a way to translate what we're doing to the client 04:03:45 that can also be a very bad thing, though 04:04:14 i've learned the worst thing in the world is to arm a client with technical knowledge 04:04:55 heh 04:04:58 they'll ask why you're building them an intranet rathre than a VPN :( 04:06:14 haha 04:06:47 i'm coming to realize that programming would be really fun if it wasn't for customers 04:07:35 yeah 04:07:44 the most fun would probably be to program for money without customers. 04:07:51 but those gigs are hard to come by, from what i hear 04:08:15 get your chicks for money, and nothin' for free 04:09:09 haha 04:15:54 The gimp-print drivers officially kick butt 04:16:08 I wonder what's wrong with my cdrom 04:22:34 rbm: did you see the conversation i had with todd gillespie (denshi) about the psets? 04:42:43 talli has left #openacs 04:47:38 markd2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 05:10:21 talli (talli@lti-4.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs 05:27:45 til (~tils@62.116.25.202) has joined #openacs 05:44:58 vinod has quit ("changing universes") 05:46:05 talli has left #openacs 06:52:30 * hazmat slays the dragon and returns from the dungeon. 07:06:31 dlk (dlk@garrison.ita.chalmers.se) has joined #openacs 08:19:40 dario (dlk@garrison.ita.chalmers.se) has joined #openacs 08:21:24 dlk has quit (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement))) 08:21:47 dario is now known as dlk 09:15:49 djg_ (~dirk@pD9587B9B.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #openacs 09:16:40 djg_ is now known as djg 10:42:51 *doppelduck* 11:46:49 jim has quit (Remote closed the connection) 12:26:58 djg has quit ("[BX] Hanson uses BitchX. Mommy, can we dress like boys again?") 13:38:14 davb (~dave@cm-208-136-23-203.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs 13:38:18 hi 13:43:47 morning dave 13:55:07 http://members.aol.com/humansandt/papers/asgame/asgame.htm 13:55:07 A: http://members.aol.com/humansandt/papers/asgame/asgame.htm from davb 13:55:17 A:|Software Development as a Cooperative Game 13:55:18 titled item A 13:55:31 A: by Alistair Cockburn 13:55:31 commented item A 14:05:58 http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/ 14:05:59 B: http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/ from davb 14:06:05 B:| Box Lessons for CSS 14:06:05 titled item B 14:13:57 heh 14:14:08 * Psychephylax gives chump a b0t cookie 14:17:48 blurb: crunch 14:17:53 hmmm 14:18:02 BLURB: crunch 14:18:02 C: crunch from davb 14:21:39 hehehhe 14:22:28 docwolf has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 14:23:25 gotta go...bank, SprintStore --> work 14:23:31 * Psychephylax runs off 14:40:31 ola (~ola@as3-1-3.mal.s.bonet.se) has joined #openacs 14:46:14 hi ola 15:01:47 Hola ola ! 15:04:44 http://www.byteswap.net/mikesnotes/2002/getting-started/ 15:04:44 D: http://www.byteswap.net/mikesnotes/2002/getting-started/ from davb 15:05:00 D:| Writing Cross-Platform Software - Getting Started 15:05:00 titled item D 15:05:04 D: part one 15:05:04 commented item D 15:08:13 hi davb, Workiephylax! 15:08:22 :-D 15:14:41 ola: did you ever get comments working with ETP? 15:17:52 Anyone here a hockey fan 15:17:53 ? 15:18:24 I like hockey, but haven't followed it... 15:20:38 we have an AHL? team in ALbany, but they suck this year :( 15:20:39 Ah 15:20:44 heh 15:21:01 they won the championship a year or two ago though... 15:21:03 I went to a Rangers Kings game last night 15:21:10 cool 15:21:14 It was the most horrific game I have ever seen 15:21:18 ah 15:21:37 Out team was more fun before... #1 in the league for penalty minutes :) 15:21:49 hehehe 15:22:58 vinod (~vinod@207-172-97-154.s154.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs 15:22:59 no. I was distracted by something else...but I came to the conclusion it should be quite easy by calling the procs in etp-gc.tcl library in the proper place;-) 15:23:10 ola: cool 15:23:13 hi vinod 15:23:49 * davb wants to see Orange County... 15:23:52 hi davb 15:25:32 markd2 (~markd2@r-41.183.alltel.net) has joined #openacs 15:25:48 Hey it's the other two of the three stooges 15:26:04 * markd2 waves 15:26:08 * Workiephylax grins 15:27:08 * vinod looks at Workiephylax and Psychephylax and wonders who the third stooge is 15:28:30 maybe we're up to 4 stooges now 15:28:55 are you calling loggy and chump stooges? 15:29:06 davb: what are the benefits of using CSS boxes compared to html tables? any downsides? 15:29:31 doesn't work in old browsers :) 15:29:42 also tables are excellent for tabular data 15:29:59 * davb still uses tables... CSS is scheduled for the redesign 15:30:33 ok. cool. 15:31:04 that link I posted, I think, has links to every other usefull CSS page out there :). read them all. 15:31:28 davb: I will 15:31:47 cool, then I can ask you questions :) 15:34:12 djg_ (~dirk@pD9E1094C.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #openacs 15:34:15 wow, that's the exact technique that i use when teaching medical students. medstudent asks complex question. i say knowingly, rubbing my chin slowly "Excelent question: look it up and report back tomorrow morning" 15:34:37 heh 15:35:10 of course, when you do it for every question, they eventually catch on 15:36:02 then it's an IQ test 15:36:14 the ones who only fall for it a dozen times are smarter than those who never figure it out 15:36:33 not quite the socratic method 15:36:39 more like a Vinodactic method 15:36:45 haha 15:36:53 * Workiephylax is not a stooge 15:36:55 yeah - socrates was overrated 15:37:01 this year I'm voting Vinodcrat 15:37:09 lol 15:37:15 We need to start our own country 15:38:40 I'm told that on Feb. 2, Dick Cheney will emerge from his bunker. If he sees 15:38:40 his shadow, there will be six more weeks of war in Afghanistan 15:39:30 is markd2 preparing for his new life as talk-show comedian? 15:39:54 one day vinod, talli, and psychephylax walked into a bar 15:40:06 and the bartender said, "what is this, some kind of joke" 15:40:10 ba dum- *bing* 15:40:14 (damn cowbell) 15:40:16 lol 15:40:23 argh 15:40:33 * vinod is a sucker for stupid jokes - no offense markd2 ;-) 15:40:46 heh 15:40:53 I like elephant jokes myself 15:40:56 webalizer can't open the config file from exec... 15:43:05 lol 15:43:07 does the config file have to be readable by nsadmin.web? 15:43:13 it is :) 15:43:26 will stuff run in exec run as the aolserver user? 15:43:42 I ran it by hand as nsadmin no problem. 15:44:29 ack nm 15:44:34 you have to spell it correctly :) 15:44:53 damn computers - always so demanding ;-) 15:44:59 yes 15:45:03 too demanding for me 15:45:09 try a dog. 15:53:30 first it was goats, now it's dogs 15:53:33 what a bunch of preverts 15:54:58 http://www.coyotelinux.com/techspec.php 15:54:58 E: http://www.coyotelinux.com/techspec.php from davb 15:55:22 E:|Coyote Linux 15:55:23 titled item E 15:55:50 E: floppy version for internet connection sharing 15:55:51 commented item E 15:56:49 now coyotes? 16:01:52 /topic #openacs - your bestiality channel 16:04:43 yippee! it works! 16:09:32 webalizer that is 16:10:16 Anyone knows how to make my IDE CD-ROM appear to cdrecord (so that I can copy CDs from the IDE cdrom to the scsi cdrw in one shot)? 16:10:21 Oh, morning BTW :) 16:11:45 I compiled in scsi emulation support thinking this was the missing thing 16:12:56 you need that... 16:13:13 it does not show up in cdrecord --scanbus? 16:13:18 davb: no 16:13:48 rbm: i'll help you if you tell me where I set the clock to UTC or not in debian :) 16:13:54 dlk has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 16:15:02 Hmmmmm. I nver did that. 16:15:08 ok :) 16:15:29 darn, I did not setup the cdrecorder after I reinstalled. I remember there was two modules. 16:15:32 I use ntp to keep my date synchronized. I think you can tell it (ntp) to use UTC 16:15:35 srmod or sr_mod I think. 16:15:42 rbm: I should use ntp also :) 16:18:09 davb: Now this SCSI thing.... 16:20:05 Linux sg driver version: 3.1.22 16:20:47 it should say on boot if it worked. your IDE cdrom should be srx or scdx 16:22:46 aha. ide-scsi and sr_mod are the modules 16:23:17 How do I load different modules for cdrecord? (yes, I read the man page, but didn't find anything) 16:23:55 Just use them all the time and refer to your cdrom as scd0 or scd1 istead of hdc or whatever. 16:25:31 "just use them"? them who? 16:26:21 I think this says how: http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue57/stoddard.html 16:27:07 yes that is correct. I am looking at the cd-writing howto, it has the same info. 16:28:18 is ide-scsi compiled into the kernel or a module? 16:28:57 Just found this in my /var/log/messages: 16:28:58 Jan 10 09:10:04 brasileiro kernel: scsi1 : SCSI host adapter emulation for IDE ATAPI devices 16:28:59 Jan 10 09:10:04 brasileiro kernel: Attached scsi CD-ROM sr0 at scsi0, channel 0, id 4, lun 0 16:28:59 Jan 10 09:10:04 brasileiro kernel: sr0: scsi3-mmc drive: 32x/32x writer cd/rw xa/form2 cdda tray 16:29:06 davb: into th kernel 16:29:47 But also: Jan 10 09:10:04 brasileiro kernel: hdb: ATAPI 44X CD-ROM drive, 128kB Cache, UDMA(33) 16:30:01 it finds the cd-recorder,but not the cdrom. you need to add append="hdd=ide-scsi" 16:30:16 or hdb=ide-scsi in lilo.conf so it doesn't load the ide driver. 16:32:13 okay 16:32:14 I think that's it 16:32:17 hang on 16:34:44 ola has quit ("changing universes") 16:38:53 Okay, it worked 16:38:54 Thanks 16:42:01 cool. 16:42:12 I don't remember doing that, but I used loadable modules. 16:49:16 http://www.clearfour.com/condiment/index.html 16:49:16 F: http://www.clearfour.com/condiment/index.html from davb 16:49:24 F:|The Condiment Museum 16:49:24