IRC log of openacs on 2002-01-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

01:12:23 [davb]
davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
01:15:26 [davb]
any debian folk around who can tell me where the X include files live?
01:20:30 [vinod]
well, i have a dir /usr/X11R6/include/X11, but i don't have anything in there. maybe there's a -dev pkg that has the headers?
01:48:44 [davb]
maybe. I'll have to look harder :)
01:54:29 [davb]
darn, everyone on debian is ignoring me :(
01:54:41 [davb]
and I can;t find anything on www.debian.org
02:01:26 [vinod]
is there a specific file you're looking for?
02:02:16 [davb]
no. I am trying to compile something and it says it can't find the x11 include directory. I tried /usr/include and a couple others, but I didn't see anything.
02:03:45 [talli]
talli has left #openacs
02:04:28 [vinod]
hmmm... any clues in the Makefile as to where it's looking for the include dir?
02:05:41 [davb]
its looking for Xos.h
02:05:52 [davb]
it checks /usr/include...
02:05:57 [davb]
I don't have it at all.
02:10:31 [vinod]
i think it might be in xlib6g-dev
02:10:42 [davb]
cool.
02:11:01 [vinod]
http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_contents.pl?word=Xos.h&searchmode=searchfiles&case=insensitive&version=stable&arch=i386
02:13:36 [davb]
thanks.
02:13:45 [davb]
I didn't know you could search for files :)
02:14:26 [vinod]
there's supposed to be a way to do it with 'apt-cache search', but i always forget the syntax
02:14:40 [vinod]
apt-cache search Xos.h -> no results
02:14:49 [davb]
that only works if its on your machine :)
02:14:57 [vinod]
ahhh
02:15:53 [davb]
hmmmm. locate Xos.h still returns no results...
02:16:10 [vinod]
locate depends on a db that's built once a day
02:16:21 [vinod]
you have to do 'updatedb' to update the db
02:16:41 [davb]
ah
02:16:55 [davb]
I learned _two_ things today :)
02:17:07 [markd2]
markd2 (~Snak@r-41.16.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
02:17:10 [vinod]
haha - it's mutual
02:17:29 [davb]
ah cool.
02:17:46 [markd2]
sounds kinky
02:17:55 [davb]
I found this website
02:17:59 [vinod]
cool it - markd2's back
02:18:01 [davb]
http://www.linuxforkids.org
02:18:01 [chump]
C: http://www.linuxforkids.org from davb
02:20:49 [davb]
argh ximian messed things up...
02:24:05 [davb]
aha. if I put the ximain source before the debian one, it gets the ximian version of the packages...
02:34:12 [davb]
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02:43:59 [docwolf]
docwolf (~docwolf@adsl-20-167-11.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs
02:51:33 [rbm]
DON'T GET XIMIAN!
02:51:47 [docwolf]
whoa
02:51:52 [docwolf]
that's some endorsement
02:51:53 [markd2]
don't monkey around with ximian
02:51:54 [docwolf]
what's going on?
02:51:58 [rbm]
HOLY CRAP! My new printer, and gimp-print ROCK
02:52:00 [rbm]
Installed and setup the printer in no time.
02:52:08 [markd2]
I find the gnome folks annoying to start out with.
02:52:10 [markd2]
which is why I stick with macs
02:52:38 [rbm]
docwolf: Before you came in, davb was talking about installing Ximian gnome
02:53:01 [docwolf]
it's bad?
02:53:18 [rbm]
Yeah. It'll screw things up.
02:53:57 [docwolf]
the thing that's annoying about ximian
02:54:02 [docwolf]
is that i just want to use Evolution
02:54:13 [docwolf]
.. but can't, because to install it on its own is a baffling ordeal
02:57:25 [rbm]
docwolf: apt-get install evolution
02:58:18 [docwolf]
rbm: i don't think that will work with mandrake
02:58:29 [docwolf]
also, those ximian dudes weren't thinking straight
02:58:36 [docwolf]
Evo should be cross-platform
02:58:57 [docwolf]
because many of us windows users don't want to use outlook, but have no choice.
02:59:11 [docwolf]
and as I found out today, Mac Office is fundamentally crippled by MS
02:59:18 [docwolf]
and cannot do scheduling with PC clients
02:59:18 [rbm]
docwolf: The Gimp was ported to Windows, so I think a version for it will show up soon
02:59:41 [davb]
davb (dave@alb-24-58-162-46.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
02:59:53 [docwolf]
rbm: really?! that would be awesome
03:00:00 [rbm]
docwolf: You just have to get an apt-enabled rpm repository and you should be able to. I use apt in a Mandrake box I help a guy with.
03:00:37 [rbm]
We have apt/rpm-enabled servers here, but I don't think we have mandrake stuff. We have RH 7.2.
03:01:12 [docwolf]
rbm: cool. Hey, evoluion is GPL'd right? i wonder if any wacko really _is_ working on a windows port..
03:02:16 [hazmat]
evo is gpl'd?
03:02:25 [hazmat]
i thought all the gnome stuff was lgpl.
03:02:55 [hazmat]
* hazmat betrays his ignorance of gnome
03:04:15 [docwolf]
http://news.gnome.org/gnome-news/1007408878/1007571784/1007699004/index_html
03:04:16 [chump]
D: http://news.gnome.org/gnome-news/1007408878/1007571784/1007699004/index_html from docwolf
03:04:22 [talli]
talli (talli@talli.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs
03:04:32 [davb]
argh. I already installed ximian. am I in really big trouble?
03:04:50 [davb]
Everything else is just the way I like it. I would hate to have to reinstall again :(
03:04:57 [hazmat]
evo is gpl'd
03:05:02 [davb]
dotLRN is coming :)
03:06:31 [hazmat]
where?
03:06:43 [davb]
end of the month :)
03:07:03 [hazmat]
cool
03:07:33 [hazmat]
using jython almost makes using java bearable.
03:07:43 [davb]
interesting.
03:08:10 [davb]
hazmat: will acs-service-contract (eventually) make it easier to use python with say OpenACS?
03:08:28 [davb]
or any other langauage...
03:09:10 [hazmat]
altering acs-service-contract to allow other languages is definitely doable (support to some xtent exists) but it must be callable from tcl and vice versa (to use other contracts within the language)
03:09:22 [hazmat]
but that really doesn't make a language a first class citizen.
03:09:23 [davb]
ok.
03:09:36 [davb]
i see.
03:10:13 [hazmat]
altering the request processor and templating to support python was a major pita, in which i succedded only partially. but i've stopped work on that effort.
03:10:36 [davb]
right.
03:10:40 [hazmat]
when the language can be used to drive content pages and access the acs api than i think it can be called a first class citizen.
03:10:55 [davb]
I was thinking more of using other languages for background services.
03:11:22 [davb]
not anything specific, just the idea popped into my head :)
03:11:26 [markd2]
* markd2 wants to use fortran
03:12:37 [vinod]
markd2 is always on the cutting edge
03:12:52 [davb]
wouldn't that be paper cut...from the punch cards?
03:12:58 [markd2]
* markd2 mumbles something about kids these days
03:13:16 [vinod]
* vinod throws eggs at markd2's fort(ran) and runs
03:13:36 [markd2]
heh
03:13:38 [davb]
have you seen markd2 snow fort(ran)?
03:13:58 [vinod]
i saw the 2 headed snow monster!
03:14:55 [davb]
so far there were more bugs in my webalizer script than lines of code...
03:15:07 [davb]
:)
03:15:23 [markd2]
sounds like you're cut out for C programming!
03:15:30 [hazmat]
davb: adding language support to acs-sc is pretty easy to allow for background services (depending on what kind), the only thing that needs to be altered is the dispatch function as i recall and the table constraint on languages.
03:15:43 [davb]
cool.
03:16:07 [davb]
anyway it definitely needs to allow pl/sql as a lanaguage.
03:16:48 [talli]
i hope i don't embarrass myself with this question, but can someone please explain to me what the acs-sc is?
03:17:01 [hazmat]
service contract
03:17:24 [hazmat]
* hazmat returns to a java dungeon.
03:17:27 [talli]
yes, i know. but what does it do?
03:17:45 [hazmat]
* hazmat returns temporarily
03:18:10 [hazmat]
its interface definition and dispatch system to allow for component based development in the acs.
03:18:50 [markd2]
so things like java beans
03:18:52 [markd2]
or fortran fossils?
03:19:24 [talli]
hazmat: whoof. ever thought of being a technical writer?
03:19:37 [talli]
hazmat: can you perhaps offer an example? i'd appreciate it.
03:20:08 [hazmat]
mark2d: not quite, its a bit more lightweight than that. doesn't really allow for object references yet, its mainly used and implemented as simple function dispathcing at the moment.
03:21:25 [markd2]
cool
03:23:00 [hazmat]
talli: take the search system as an example an package, the search package defines provider and indexing interfaces ( i haven't looked in a while so this is probably in err). a package can define which of its contents are to be searched by providing a provider implementation, and different indexer implementations can be plugged in to allow for different search engines.
03:23:27 [talli]
i see.
03:24:00 [talli]
so the bboards would provide some details about what the search package should index?
03:25:09 [hazmat]
yes, you could only index threads by yourself in a provider implementation. not true in reality because the bboards uses the cr which provides a generic provider implementation
03:26:32 [hazmat]
* hazmat returns to the dungeon.
03:26:51 [talli]
* talli thanks hazmat and wishes him luck with the dragon of java
03:27:03 [vinod]
* vinod locks the key this time
03:27:10 [vinod]
:-)
03:27:24 [hazmat]
* hazmat pounds on the door, screaming 'let me out'
03:27:55 [markd2]
* markd2 passes an anonymous inner class under the door
03:28:32 [vinod]
a-ha! so markd2 is still under the influence of the Java Lords
03:28:50 [markd2]
I'm dividing my time 3-way between java, oracle, and cocoa
03:29:02 [vinod]
cocoa java - mmmmm
03:29:07 [talli]
markd2: how do you like cocoa?
03:29:14 [markd2]
it rocks my universe
03:29:20 [talli]
it's based on objective-C, right?
03:29:21 [markd2]
I picked up the new Hillegass book
03:29:22 [markd2]
yep
03:29:28 [rbm]
M
03:29:30 [talli]
i heard that's a cool language
03:29:41 [talli]
is it easy to build apps with?
03:29:42 [markd2]
it's as brief as java is big
03:30:03 [talli]
is cocoa a language or a framework?
03:30:13 [markd2]
cocoa is the framework, objective C is the language
03:30:17 [markd2]
but they're pretty much synonymous
03:30:31 [talli]
i see. what kind of apps are you building?
03:30:31 [markd2]
I don't think anyone else uses objective C
03:30:40 [markd2]
right now, little tutorial thingies
03:30:40 [rbm]
Objective-C is cool
03:30:45 [vinod]
so it's like powerplant?
03:30:46 [talli]
and... what's the diff between cocoa and carbon?
03:30:54 [rbm]
markd2: GNUstep uses ObjC
03:31:09 [markd2]
cocoa == nextstep, which is what GNUstep is trying to emulate
03:31:13 [markd2]
so still pretty much the same thing
03:31:27 [markd2]
carbon is the old "classic" mac APIs
03:31:35 [markd2]
very procedural, kind old and crufty
03:31:45 [markd2]
cocoa is an OO framework
03:31:56 [markd2]
which really leverages the coolness of objective C
03:32:32 [davb]
* davb needs a mac
03:32:50 [vinod]
what do you need to develop in cocoa (besides a mac)?
03:33:33 [markd2]
os/x
03:33:41 [markd2]
the OS box comes with thedevtools
03:33:44 [markd2]
which is all you need
03:33:56 [davb]
that is cool
03:34:06 [vinod]
schweet
03:34:22 [markd2]
the next devtools rev comes with ASS (heh)
03:34:26 [markd2]
AppleScript Studio
03:34:34 [markd2]
from what I can tell is using the cocoa libraries from applescript
03:35:03 [markd2]
which, if true, and if it doesn't suck, will really lower the development bar
03:35:18 [vinod]
* vinod looks up at the development bar
03:35:57 [markd2]
* markd2 bellies up to the development bar
03:36:10 [davb]
* davb takes the elevator up 60 floors to the development bar.
03:36:46 [markd2]
* markd2 is glad he didn't mention the development foo
03:36:53 [vinod]
haha
03:36:54 [talli]
speaking of the development bar, anyone have a reference to a reasonable tutorial about entity relationship diagrams?
03:40:26 [davb]
well until tomorrow...
03:40:39 [vinod]
does this help? http://www.smartdraw.com/resources/centers/software/erd.htm
03:40:48 [davb]
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03:41:05 [talli]
i saw that stuff
03:41:14 [talli]
thanks. i didn't look directly at that
03:41:35 [vinod]
np
03:59:21 [talli]
has anyone used ER diagrams for development purposes?
03:59:33 [markd2]
nope
03:59:38 [vinod]
nope
03:59:43 [markd2]
I don't do well with big formal diagrams
04:00:03 [markd2]
usually they'er just a "look! I 've been doing work" thing for folks screwing around with some CASE tool
04:00:10 [talli]
i see.
04:00:32 [markd2]
but in your situation, if the client wants 'em, then you gotta make 'em
04:00:32 [talli]
a client has requested them from us, and luke found an app that translates an ER diagram into a SQL data model
04:00:45 [talli]
yeah, that's pretty much a cardinal truth
04:01:16 [markd2]
maybe make it the other way aruond
04:01:27 [markd2]
make your sql data model, then 'reverse engineer' the ER diagram from it
04:01:36 [talli]
i was just wondering whether they were worth spending money on apps that do these things
04:01:54 [talli]
i think this app does both, one way or the other
04:01:59 [markd2]
cool
04:02:08 [markd2]
I'm a retrogrouch when it comes to those things
04:02:15 [markd2]
if it's a small enough problem, you can look at the sql
04:02:28 [talli]
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04:02:38 [markd2]
if it's a big enough problem, your ER diagram will cover pages with tiny boxes and hundreds of lines
04:02:40 [markd2]
rendering it useless
04:02:44 [talli]
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04:02:49 [markd2]
[11:04] <markd2> if it's a big enough problem, your ER diagram will cover pages with tiny boxes and hundreds of lines
04:02:49 [markd2]
[11:04] <markd2> rendering it useless
04:02:52 [talli]
whoops, sorry
04:02:54 [talli]
closed the wrong window
04:03:00 [markd2]
and here I was about to unleash my invective
04:03:39 [talli]
well, the nice thing about it is that it seems to provide a way to translate what we're doing to the client
04:03:45 [talli]
that can also be a very bad thing, though
04:04:14 [talli]
i've learned the worst thing in the world is to arm a client with technical knowledge
04:04:55 [markd2]
heh
04:04:58 [talli]
they'll ask why you're building them an intranet rathre than a VPN :(
04:06:14 [vinod]
haha
04:06:47 [vinod]
i'm coming to realize that programming would be really fun if it wasn't for customers
04:07:35 [markd2]
yeah
04:07:44 [talli]
the most fun would probably be to program for money without customers.
04:07:51 [talli]
but those gigs are hard to come by, from what i hear
04:08:15 [markd2]
get your chicks for money, and nothin' for free
04:09:09 [vinod]
haha
04:15:54 [rbm]
The gimp-print drivers officially kick butt
04:16:08 [rbm]
I wonder what's wrong with my cdrom
04:22:34 [talli]
rbm: did you see the conversation i had with todd gillespie (denshi) about the psets?
04:42:43 [talli]
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06:52:30 [hazmat]
* hazmat slays the dragon and returns from the dungeon.
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10:42:51 [til]
*doppelduck*
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djg has quit ("[BX] Hanson uses BitchX. Mommy, can we dress like boys again?")
13:38:14 [davb]
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13:38:18 [davb]
hi
13:43:47 [Psychephylax]
morning dave
13:55:07 [davb]
http://members.aol.com/humansandt/papers/asgame/asgame.htm
13:55:07 [chump]
A: http://members.aol.com/humansandt/papers/asgame/asgame.htm from davb
13:55:17 [davb]
A:|Software Development as a Cooperative Game
13:55:18 [chump]
titled item A
13:55:31 [davb]
A: by Alistair Cockburn
13:55:31 [chump]
commented item A
14:05:58 [davb]
http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/
14:05:59 [chump]
B: http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/ from davb
14:06:05 [davb]
B:| Box Lessons for CSS
14:06:05 [chump]
titled item B
14:13:57 [Psychephylax]
heh
14:14:08 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax gives chump a b0t cookie
14:17:48 [davb]
blurb: crunch
14:17:53 [davb]
hmmm
14:18:02 [davb]
BLURB: crunch
14:18:02 [chump]
C: crunch from davb
14:21:39 [Psychephylax]
hehehhe
14:22:28 [docwolf]
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14:23:25 [Psychephylax]
gotta go...bank, SprintStore --> work
14:23:31 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax runs off
14:40:31 [ola]
ola (~ola@as3-1-3.mal.s.bonet.se) has joined #openacs
14:46:14 [davb]
hi ola
15:01:47 [Workiephylax]
Hola ola !
15:04:44 [davb]
http://www.byteswap.net/mikesnotes/2002/getting-started/
15:04:44 [chump]
D: http://www.byteswap.net/mikesnotes/2002/getting-started/ from davb
15:05:00 [davb]
D:| Writing Cross-Platform Software - Getting Started
15:05:00 [chump]
titled item D
15:05:04 [davb]
D: part one
15:05:04 [chump]
commented item D
15:08:13 [ola]
hi davb, Workiephylax!
15:08:22 [Workiephylax]
:-D
15:14:41 [davb]
ola: did you ever get comments working with ETP?
15:17:52 [Workiephylax]
Anyone here a hockey fan
15:17:53 [Workiephylax]
?
15:18:24 [davb]
I like hockey, but haven't followed it...
15:20:38 [davb]
we have an AHL? team in ALbany, but they suck this year :(
15:20:39 [Workiephylax]
Ah
15:20:44 [Workiephylax]
heh
15:21:01 [davb]
they won the championship a year or two ago though...
15:21:03 [Workiephylax]
I went to a Rangers Kings game last night
15:21:10 [davb]
cool
15:21:14 [Workiephylax]
It was the most horrific game I have ever seen
15:21:18 [davb]
ah
15:21:37 [davb]
Out team was more fun before... #1 in the league for penalty minutes :)
15:21:49 [Workiephylax]
hehehe
15:22:58 [vinod]
vinod (~vinod@207-172-97-154.s154.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs
15:22:59 [ola]
no. I was distracted by something else...but I came to the conclusion it should be quite easy by calling the procs in etp-gc.tcl library in the proper place;-)
15:23:10 [davb]
ola: cool
15:23:13 [davb]
hi vinod
15:23:49 [davb]
* davb wants to see Orange County...
15:23:52 [vinod]
hi davb
15:25:32 [markd2]
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15:25:48 [Workiephylax]
Hey it's the other two of the three stooges
15:26:04 [markd2]
* markd2 waves
15:26:08 [Workiephylax]
* Workiephylax grins
15:27:08 [vinod]
* vinod looks at Workiephylax and Psychephylax and wonders who the third stooge is
15:28:30 [markd2]
maybe we're up to 4 stooges now
15:28:55 [vinod]
are you calling loggy and chump stooges?
15:29:06 [ola]
davb: what are the benefits of using CSS boxes compared to html tables? any downsides?
15:29:31 [davb]
doesn't work in old browsers :)
15:29:42 [davb]
also tables are excellent for tabular data
15:29:59 [davb]
* davb still uses tables... CSS is scheduled for the redesign
15:30:33 [ola]
ok. cool.
15:31:04 [davb]
that link I posted, I think, has links to every other usefull CSS page out there :). read them all.
15:31:28 [ola]
davb: I will
15:31:47 [davb]
cool, then I can ask you questions :)
15:34:12 [djg_]
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15:34:15 [vinod]
wow, that's the exact technique that i use when teaching medical students. medstudent asks complex question. i say knowingly, rubbing my chin slowly "Excelent question: look it up and report back tomorrow morning"
15:34:37 [davb]
heh
15:35:10 [vinod]
of course, when you do it for every question, they eventually catch on
15:36:02 [markd2]
then it's an IQ test
15:36:14 [markd2]
the ones who only fall for it a dozen times are smarter than those who never figure it out
15:36:33 [markd2]
not quite the socratic method
15:36:39 [markd2]
more like a Vinodactic method
15:36:45 [vinod]
haha
15:36:53 [Workiephylax]
* Workiephylax is not a stooge
15:36:55 [vinod]
yeah - socrates was overrated
15:37:01 [markd2]
this year I'm voting Vinodcrat
15:37:09 [Workiephylax]
lol
15:37:15 [Workiephylax]
We need to start our own country
15:38:40 [markd2]
I'm told that on Feb. 2, Dick Cheney will emerge from his bunker. If he sees
15:38:40 [markd2]
his shadow, there will be six more weeks of war in Afghanistan
15:39:30 [vinod]
is markd2 preparing for his new life as talk-show comedian?
15:39:54 [markd2]
one day vinod, talli, and psychephylax walked into a bar
15:40:06 [markd2]
and the bartender said, "what is this, some kind of joke"
15:40:10 [markd2]
ba dum- *bing*
15:40:14 [markd2]
(damn cowbell)
15:40:16 [vinod]
lol
15:40:23 [davb]
argh
15:40:33 [vinod]
* vinod is a sucker for stupid jokes - no offense markd2 ;-)
15:40:46 [markd2]
heh
15:40:53 [markd2]
I like elephant jokes myself
15:40:56 [davb]
webalizer can't open the config file from exec...
15:43:05 [Workiephylax]
lol
15:43:07 [vinod]
does the config file have to be readable by nsadmin.web?
15:43:13 [davb]
it is :)
15:43:26 [davb]
will stuff run in exec run as the aolserver user?
15:43:42 [davb]
I ran it by hand as nsadmin no problem.
15:44:29 [davb]
ack nm
15:44:34 [davb]
you have to spell it correctly :)
15:44:53 [vinod]
damn computers - always so demanding ;-)
15:44:59 [Workiephylax]
yes
15:45:03 [Workiephylax]
too demanding for me
15:45:09 [davb]
try a dog.
15:53:30 [markd2]
first it was goats, now it's dogs
15:53:33 [markd2]
what a bunch of preverts
15:54:58 [davb]
http://www.coyotelinux.com/techspec.php
15:54:58 [chump]
E: http://www.coyotelinux.com/techspec.php from davb
15:55:22 [davb]
E:|Coyote Linux
15:55:23 [chump]
titled item E
15:55:50 [davb]
E: floppy version for internet connection sharing
15:55:51 [chump]
commented item E
15:56:49 [vinod]
now coyotes?
16:01:52 [markd2]
/topic #openacs - your bestiality channel
16:04:43 [davb]
yippee! it works!
16:09:32 [davb]
webalizer that is
16:10:16 [rbm]
Anyone knows how to make my IDE CD-ROM appear to cdrecord (so that I can copy CDs from the IDE cdrom to the scsi cdrw in one shot)?
16:10:21 [rbm]
Oh, morning BTW :)
16:11:45 [rbm]
I compiled in scsi emulation support thinking this was the missing thing
16:12:56 [davb]
you need that...
16:13:13 [davb]
it does not show up in cdrecord --scanbus?
16:13:18 [rbm]
davb: no
16:13:48 [davb]
rbm: i'll help you if you tell me where I set the clock to UTC or not in debian :)
16:13:54 [dlk]
dlk has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
16:15:02 [rbm]
Hmmmmm. I nver did that.
16:15:08 [davb]
ok :)
16:15:29 [davb]
darn, I did not setup the cdrecorder after I reinstalled. I remember there was two modules.
16:15:32 [rbm]
I use ntp to keep my date synchronized. I think you can tell it (ntp) to use UTC
16:15:35 [davb]
srmod or sr_mod I think.
16:15:42 [davb]
rbm: I should use ntp also :)
16:18:09 [rbm]
davb: Now this SCSI thing....
16:20:05 [rbm]
Linux sg driver version: 3.1.22
16:20:47 [davb]
it should say on boot if it worked. your IDE cdrom should be srx or scdx
16:22:46 [davb]
aha. ide-scsi and sr_mod are the modules
16:23:17 [rbm]
How do I load different modules for cdrecord? (yes, I read the man page, but didn't find anything)
16:23:55 [davb]
Just use them all the time and refer to your cdrom as scd0 or scd1 istead of hdc or whatever.
16:25:31 [rbm]
"just use them"? them who?
16:26:21 [rbm]
I think this says how: http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue57/stoddard.html
16:27:07 [davb]
yes that is correct. I am looking at the cd-writing howto, it has the same info.
16:28:18 [davb]
is ide-scsi compiled into the kernel or a module?
16:28:57 [rbm]
Just found this in my /var/log/messages:
16:28:58 [rbm]
Jan 10 09:10:04 brasileiro kernel: scsi1 : SCSI host adapter emulation for IDE ATAPI devices
16:28:59 [rbm]
Jan 10 09:10:04 brasileiro kernel: Attached scsi CD-ROM sr0 at scsi0, channel 0, id 4, lun 0
16:28:59 [rbm]
Jan 10 09:10:04 brasileiro kernel: sr0: scsi3-mmc drive: 32x/32x writer cd/rw xa/form2 cdda tray
16:29:06 [rbm]
davb: into th kernel
16:29:47 [rbm]
But also: Jan 10 09:10:04 brasileiro kernel: hdb: ATAPI 44X CD-ROM drive, 128kB Cache, UDMA(33)
16:30:01 [davb]
it finds the cd-recorder,but not the cdrom. you need to add append="hdd=ide-scsi"
16:30:16 [davb]
or hdb=ide-scsi in lilo.conf so it doesn't load the ide driver.
16:32:13 [rbm]
okay
16:32:14 [rbm]
I think that's it
16:32:17 [rbm]
hang on
16:34:44 [ola]
ola has quit ("changing universes")
16:38:53 [rbm]
Okay, it worked
16:38:54 [rbm]
Thanks
16:42:01 [davb]
cool.
16:42:12 [davb]
I don't remember doing that, but I used loadable modules.
16:49:16 [davb]
http://www.clearfour.com/condiment/index.html
16:49:16 [chump]
F: http://www.clearfour.com/condiment/index.html from davb
16:49:24 [davb]
F:|The Condiment Museum
16:49:24 [chump]
titled item F
17:20:15 [talli]
talli (talli@talli.dialup.access.net) has joined #openacs
17:23:50 [davb]
hi talli
17:24:09 [davb]
I found someone who wants to start a LUG in albany!
17:24:15 [markd2]
sweet
17:25:16 [davb]
well, thats two members anyway :)
17:26:38 [talli]
hey davb
17:28:38 [Workiephylax]
lol
17:29:06 [Workiephylax]
* Workiephylax ponders commuting to albany for LUG meetings organized by dave
17:29:17 [Workiephylax]
Naaaaahhhh
17:29:18 [Workiephylax]
:-D
17:31:34 [davb]
heh
17:35:40 [til]
til has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
17:37:26 [Workiephylax]
wooo!
17:37:29 [Workiephylax]
I get my parts today
17:52:21 [markd2]
now you can get rid of that skirt!
17:52:27 [markd2]
oh. parts. not pants
17:52:28 [markd2]
nm
17:52:49 [Workiephylax]
so it took you that long to think up that one?
17:53:04 [Workiephylax]
I'm disappointed
17:53:26 [markd2]
sorry
17:53:35 [markd2]
I was working on other stuff in the interim
17:53:51 [Workiephylax]
heh
18:00:11 [davb]
http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2002/01/03/cvs_intro.html
18:00:11 [chump]
G: http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2002/01/03/cvs_intro.html from davb
18:00:22 [davb]
G:|Introduction to CVS on Oreillynet
18:00:22 [chump]
titled item G
18:00:57 [davb]
G:[CVS Pocket Reference|http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/cvspr/]
18:00:57 [chump]
commented item G
18:43:04 [davb]
http://www.fogcreek.com/CityDesk/fog0000000068.html
18:43:04 [chump]
H: http://www.fogcreek.com/CityDesk/fog0000000068.html from davb
18:43:11 [davb]
H:|CityDesk for Geeks
18:43:11 [chump]
titled item H
18:43:23 [davb]
H: they use the Microsoft Jet engine to store web content
18:43:23 [chump]
commented item H
18:43:31 [davb]
H: what? the filesystem is not good enough?
18:43:31 [chump]
commented item H
18:44:22 [markd2]
the fogcreek / joel on software folks are big microsofties
18:44:30 [davb]
H: otherwise it's cool, but I do not understant this.
18:44:30 [chump]
commented item H
18:45:05 [davb]
Yeah, thats fine, but still. Why stuff gifs, jpgs, and html files into a database so you can FTP them to a webserver?
18:45:23 [lilo]
[Global Notice] Hi all. We've been experiencing some clone kiddie problems, including private CTCP floods. Suggest you turn on user modes +CE to avoid these attacks. +C prevents you from receiving private CTCP messages or responding to CTCP and +E prevents you from receiving messages from users not currently identified to nickserv. Thanks.
18:46:02 [davb]
This is amusing: "Because Jet (our database engine) is inherently multiuser, with the professional edition of CityDesk, you can have up to 255 people editing the site at the same time. "
18:46:12 [davb]
That won't be slow...
18:47:05 [lilo]
[Global Notice] Please note: not modes +ce, but +CE . The capitalization is signficiant. For more information, check on #openprojects. Thanks.
18:52:55 [hazmat]
jet is a joke.
18:55:30 [hazmat]
i don't understand why they wouldn't use the ado layer.
18:56:49 [davb]
* davb is quickly lost :)
18:57:27 [davb]
ado layer to what?
18:57:48 [lilo]
[Global Notice] Please seriously consider turning off private CTCP if you're on a major public channel by setting mode C. On most clients, +C is set via one of the following: "/umode +C" or "/mode <yournick> +C" or "/quote mode <yournick> +C" or "/raw mode +C <yournick>". Thanks.
19:01:46 [lilo]
[Global Notice] If you're on irssi and want to set +C to avoid private CTCP attacks, please set "/set lag_check_time 0" as well to avoid ping-out. Thanks.
19:03:59 [lilo]
[Global Notice] Two final notes....if you don't mind restricting your client so that it only receives private messages/notices from users identified to NickServ, this may be another very good protection to have. To do so, set +E as well as +C (+CE). And finally, we'll save further comments for WALLOPS. You can see wallops by turning on user mode +w. Thanks.
19:04:48 [hazmat]
to a remote db (ala sqlserver), or access. it would be easier to scale for larger number of users... perhaps not a problem they have.
19:06:05 [ola]
ola (~ola@as3-1-3.mal.s.bonet.se) has joined #openacs
19:06:35 [davb]
ok. just wondering because we use access here (not my idea)
19:17:26 [ola]
dave, I've been testing the clickthrough module for a litle while and I can't see any activity reported in the admin/ section...
19:17:35 [davb]
hmmmm
19:17:40 [ola]
I must be doing something wrong.
19:17:49 [ola]
I mounted it at /ct/ and made a /clicktest.tcl with a call to clickthrough_link. that part works (it's just a regular link if I unmount CT etc.)...
19:18:17 [davb]
ok.
19:18:26 [davb]
and you clicked on it of course :)
19:18:40 [davb]
is that an internal or external link?
19:19:14 [ola]
yes. both as admin and normal user. (external link :-))
19:19:23 [davb]
ok
19:19:31 [davb]
check the parameters for the package.
19:19:46 [ola]
ok.
19:19:50 [davb]
I am not sure how often it stuffs them in the database by default.
19:20:37 [davb]
300 secs.. 5 mins it supposed to run.
19:20:58 [davb]
aha. it doesn't use the parameter.
19:21:07 [ola]
MaxNumberOfCachedClicks is set to 1 by me but it's originally 300 I think
19:21:25 [ola]
hmm
19:21:36 [davb]
look in the table clickthrough_log
19:23:09 [ola]
in the .vuh file there's a call to ad_returnredirect... and after that stuff gets logged an so forth. maybe the script is halted by ad_returnredirect...?
19:23:27 [davb]
I don't think so....
19:25:14 [davb]
ola: it only stuffs them after 100 clicks. it checks every 5 mins.
19:25:21 [davb]
I think the 100 is configurable.
19:25:22 [ola]
never mind. I'm curious though, have you ever seen anything being reported yourself, while porting or so?
19:25:27 [ola]
ok
19:25:29 [davb]
yes :)
19:25:40 [davb]
Also it was tested and some bugs were found so I think it works.
19:25:49 [davb]
(bugs were fixed :)
19:26:09 [davb]
nevermind, I lied, the 100 is hard coded in.
19:26:12 [ola]
me too. I must be doing something really dumb;-)
19:26:16 [davb]
but it SHOULD be a parameter.
19:26:23 [davb]
did you click 100 times?
19:26:24 [ola]
ok...
19:26:38 [davb]
or change it in clickthrough_cache_sweeper
19:26:56 [ola]
nope...
19:27:03 [ola]
that must be it...
19:27:26 [davb]
yeah, my trigger finger got tired testing. I wrote a tcl script to hit the link 100 times :)
19:27:47 [ola]
heh
19:28:26 [davb]
hey! the parameters are in there, but the code doesn't use them
19:28:30 [davb]
* davb curses aD
19:28:53 [davb]
I think I'll fix that, hang on...
19:29:30 [davb]
weird..."
19:29:38 [davb]
good question :)
19:31:25 [markd2]
how would the scheuled proc know what package id to use?
19:31:40 [markd2]
must go wash cars. bbl
19:31:44 [markd2]
markd2 has quit ("Bork")
19:33:49 [Workiephylax]
What the hell is wrong with this set modem_ds_pwr [expr $modem_ds_pwr / 10.0]
19:36:21 [ola]
try 10 instead of 10.0 or [double 10.0] (not sure though)...
19:36:45 [rbm]
http://www.ca.postgresql.org/~petere/comparison.html
19:36:45 [chump]
I: http://www.ca.postgresql.org/~petere/comparison.html from rbm
19:36:57 [rbm]
I:|A Response to the Featurewise Comparison of MySQL and PostgreSQL
19:36:57 [chump]
titled item I
19:38:40 [Workiephylax]
Aha
19:44:52 [ola]
ola has quit ("changing universes")
19:46:40 [ola]
ola (~ola@as3-1-3.mal.s.bonet.se) has joined #openacs
20:24:52 [davb]
markd2: like this [ad_parameter parameter_name package_name]
20:24:52 [vinod]
vinod has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:25:00 [davb]
argh
20:25:04 [davb]
:)
20:25:59 [docwolf]
docwolf (~docwolf@adsl-20-167-11.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs
20:26:16 [docwolf]
yo
20:37:44 [denshi]
denshi (~chatzilla@adsl-216-62-223-193.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) has joined #openacs
20:37:51 [denshi]
I *live*.
20:37:54 [davb]
hi denshi, docwolf
20:38:32 [rbm]
blarghf00f
20:42:37 [davb]
so, does anyone know if ad_parameter package_key parameter_name _does_ work in a scheduled proc?
20:47:37 [davb]
looking at the code, it looks like ad_parameter does not use package key to retrieve parameters, contrary to the documentation.
20:47:47 [hazmat]
* hazmat is almost out of the java dungeon
20:48:00 [davb]
yeah.
20:48:59 [davb]
maybe I can get the package_id from inside the scheduled proc. clickthrough is supposed to only be installed once.
20:50:11 [davb]
is there a proc to get a package_id based on the package_key?
20:50:39 [hazmat]
its in memory in the sitenode map i believe... not sure.
20:52:35 [davb]
ok, i'll look :)
20:52:50 [ola]
davb: [apm_package_id_from_key static-pages]
20:53:48 [ola]
(with minor corrections)
20:55:07 [davb]
cool
20:55:35 [davb]
ola: did you get CT working btw?
20:57:50 [ola]
yes dave, after clicking 100 times on a link... I just tried:-) - wooohooo!
21:00:05 [davb]
heh, that's why I want to fix the parameters.
21:00:12 [ola]
ok
21:00:20 [ola]
[ad_parameter -package_id $package_id ParamName] *ought* to work in a scheduled procedure (hav not tested though)...
21:02:50 [davb]
first you need the package_id :)
21:02:52 [davb]
http://www.petitiononline.com/dgkomxpq/petition.html
21:02:52 [chump]
J: http://www.petitiononline.com/dgkomxpq/petition.html from davb
21:03:09 [davb]
J:Petition to have Peter Jackson write and direct Star Wars Episode III
21:03:10 [chump]
commented item J
21:03:46 [davb]
http://boingboing.net/
21:03:47 [chump]
K: http://boingboing.net/ from davb
21:03:58 [davb]
K:|BoingBoing - links to all kinds of wacky stuff
21:03:58 [chump]
titled item K
21:05:16 [ola]
davb: how about: set package_id [apm_package_id_from_key clickthrough] ?
21:06:22 [talli]
denshi: you got me looking at learning ruby
21:06:34 [denshi]
* denshi tickles talli
21:06:54 [talli]
i don't know ANY languages mostly because i find programming (GASP) boring
21:07:05 [talli]
but, i need to know something to do small things on a computer
21:07:08 [denshi]
* denshi pokes docwolf
21:07:13 [talli]
and if ruby is as cool as some say it is...
21:07:30 [davb]
ola: I will try it as soon as I can :)
21:07:36 [hazmat]
* hazmat exits the dungeon
21:07:38 [davb]
talli: theres a free ruby book online
21:07:54 [denshi]
* denshi blocks hazmat, shoves him back.
21:08:03 [hazmat]
i finally found a reason to use ruby... its got bindings for subversion.
21:08:19 [denshi]
http://www.rubycentral.com/book/
21:08:20 [chump]
L: http://www.rubycentral.com/book/ from denshi
21:08:26 [hazmat]
hey, i'm just happy that i could write all my java in jython and it was fast enough to meet requirements :)
21:10:00 [hazmat]
http://www.mindview.net/Etc/FAQ.html#Ruby
21:10:00 [chump]
M: http://www.mindview.net/Etc/FAQ.html#Ruby from hazmat
21:10:22 [hazmat]
M: bruce eckel on python v. ruby
21:10:22 [chump]
commented item M
21:11:21 [hazmat]
i think that nicely sums up my own feelings about ruby, although i do intend to experiment with the language.
21:11:33 [denshi]
eckel was torn up for a while on comp.lang.ruby; most thought it a bit self-serving
21:11:56 [vinod]
vinod (~vinod@207-172-255-79.s1095.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs
21:12:06 [markd2]
markd2 (~Snak@r-41.183.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
21:13:08 [hazmat]
there are some questionable remarks there (esp. the one regard mat.'s intentions), but on the whole its args are still valid in my mind.
21:14:02 [talli]
hazmat: i saw another article from someone that said "i hate all those damn 'self's all over the place"
21:14:06 [denshi]
i think he just starts off on a whiny note. "So far I keep coming to the conclusion that Ruby is just a bad ripoff of Python, just like C# is a bad ripoff of C++ and to some degree Java".
21:14:18 [talli]
i don't know what to think. the big one is that python has so many libraries
21:14:19 [denshi]
Which just makes him sound like an idiot.
21:15:28 [davb]
talli: how many languages do you want to learn?
21:15:35 [denshi]
how old is eckel?
21:15:39 [davb]
Python has way more books, tutorials etc.
21:15:49 [hazmat]
denshi: 40s is my guess.
21:15:51 [talli]
uhmm... i know english, most of hebrew, and some italian
21:16:12 [denshi]
writing since 1986.... probably 40s.
21:16:20 [markd2]
VB has way more books, tutorials, etc
21:16:26 [talli]
i will need to learn tcl in order to do stuff for OACS
21:16:42 [talli]
i've programmed in C++ and perl from college
21:16:48 [denshi]
he just uses so many ad hominums attacks; it makes him sound like a teenager.
21:16:58 [Workiephylax]
I'm trying to learn Java, C then C++
21:17:01 [Workiephylax]
followed by Perl
21:17:03 [davb]
markd2: heh good point.
21:17:05 [talli]
just haven't touched it in a year or two, and i generally don't enjoy programming. but i need to be able to throw some stuff otgether
21:17:05 [denshi]
er... s/hominums/hominum/gi
21:17:24 [davb]
go with markd2's favorite fortran
21:17:26 [Workiephylax]
talli, learn java then :)
21:17:30 [markd2]
yes!
21:17:34 [talli]
well, VB may be a good language to learn.
21:17:43 [hazmat]
assembly is the way to go :)
21:17:47 [Workiephylax]
It's got a sh*tload of libraries and it's very well documented
21:17:49 [davb]
except it doesn't run on Linux or any other platform.
21:17:50 [denshi]
talli: I kind of wonder why I like programming.
21:18:10 [talli]
wait, lemme rephrase something
21:18:14 [talli]
i don't mind programming
21:18:19 [talli]
i HATE debugging
21:18:33 [talli]
which pretty much is programming
21:18:34 [davb]
stop writing buggy software :)
21:18:41 [denshi]
Mostly programming is just hours of frustration, but the high off the few minutes when it all comes together seems to make up for it. Maybe I'm just easy to please.
21:18:55 [hazmat]
does anyone else think debugging in oacs is a bitch?
21:18:55 [talli]
denshi: that sounds like golf. i hate golf.
21:19:06 [denshi]
I hate golf too.
21:19:07 [Workiephylax]
* Workiephylax waves his hand
21:19:11 [markd2]
golf sucks
21:19:14 [davb]
hazmat: it sucks, postgresql errors are ill defined.
21:19:20 [denshi]
debugging in oacs also sucks.
21:19:34 [talli]
does tclpro help at all?
21:19:36 [hazmat]
the logs are impossible to tail as well. way to verbose.
21:19:43 [davb]
the problem is the error pages NEVER give the real error.
21:19:44 [talli]
is it because there's no good IDE?
21:20:04 [hazmat]
talli: that could be, the problem is the lack of a debugger not an ide. imo.
21:20:06 [davb]
that's all debug level notices. I think all the QD stuff will go away (I hope)
21:20:18 [davb]
99% of that stuff should not be in the log of a production site.
21:20:37 [denshi]
talli: i think it's b/c oacs 3.x isn't well layered.
21:20:38 [markd2]
it's nice to be able to turn it on to track down production problems
21:20:42 [hazmat]
davb: but we're talking about development... :), it would be nice to turn on log subsystems on a case per case basis.
21:20:52 [davb]
yes.
21:20:57 [davb]
good point.
21:21:17 [davb]
next release :)
21:21:19 [hazmat]
* hazmat is itching to compare to zope. :)
21:21:22 [markd2]
aolserver2 had a neat run-time customizable logging facility (mod_log) *and* hooks in a lot of places
21:21:30 [markd2]
alas the aolserver 3 folks took out most of the hooks
21:21:31 [vinod]
compare, compare
21:21:39 [davb]
we will just heckle you.
21:21:42 [davb]
:)
21:21:42 [markd2]
it was dead-easy to see headers of requests, incoming outgoing bytes, etc
21:22:09 [talli]
markd2: what is aolserver4 going to be like? will it be a major upgrade?
21:22:17 [markd2]
no idea
21:22:20 [markd2]
I've pretty much lost interest
21:22:29 [talli]
ah, ok
21:22:37 [markd2]
sounds like they're coming back to some stuff that was in 2.X :-)
21:22:38 [vinod]
interest rates have been down
21:22:53 [davb]
time to go.
21:22:56 [davb]
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21:23:25 [hazmat]
you can run zope from the command line, and in the python debugger. configurable logging. you can open a live site in an interpreter if you configure that way, and make all your changes private to your session.
21:23:49 [vinod]
aol.com is running on aolserver 3.4 now
21:24:11 [hazmat]
plus two platform ide's with zope debugging support wingide, and komodo. ok i'm done.
21:24:29 [vinod]
haha
21:24:36 [talli]
hazmat: yeah, but, uh, zope sucks. :)
21:24:40 [hazmat]
:)
21:25:07 [talli]
i shouldn't say that after i've admitted i can't program, should i? vinod, back me up
21:25:26 [vinod]
uh.. yeah, what talli says
21:25:39 [vinod]
* vinod furiously looks for a slashdot post to back him up
21:25:49 [hazmat]
lol
21:26:28 [vinod]
hazmat: do you use dtml at all or do you do everything in python
21:26:39 [hazmat]
* hazmat promises never to mention zope unless asked again in #openacs.
21:26:52 [hazmat]
python
21:26:58 [hazmat]
all on the fs
21:27:00 [vinod]
* vinod promises never to mention goats again unless asked by markd2
21:27:12 [talli]
* talli promises never to be a self-aggrandizing perv again unless hazmat mentions zope again
21:27:21 [markd2]
heh
21:27:24 [denshi]
I hear pervy goats use zope.
21:27:32 [markd2]
markd2 has changed the topic to: GoatenACS: Free Web Toolkit http://openacs.org
21:27:44 [vinod]
what does 'all on the fs' mean? (sorry newbie here)
21:27:46 [denshi]
And we have a new name!!
21:28:34 [markd2]
maybe I should post that to that huge 'name the product' thread
21:28:56 [hazmat]
vinod: lots of zope is designed to be code ttw (web based). i code in python products and dtml/zpt (presentation) on the fs meaning i don't use the web interface to zope very much.
21:29:37 [vinod]
ahh - i was thinking that the ttw might be a limitation for me since i like the acs way
21:29:41 [hazmat]
i do that mainly to play better with my editing tools (although emacs can edit zope ttw via ftp, as can others via webdav (or passing through cadaver), the other reason is to version control my files.
21:30:03 [vinod]
that was gonna be my next question - cvs.
21:30:48 [markd2]
they have a pretty good selection of candy bars
21:31:01 [hazmat]
zope does have some notion of versions but its pretty weak at the moment, although there are some interesting projects going on to introduce it. i consider it a weakness of zope.
21:31:16 [hazmat]
so i worked around it.
21:31:18 [vinod]
markd2: and prescription drugs
21:31:22 [vinod]
cool
21:31:38 [talli]
someone say drugs?
21:31:51 [hazmat]
big meth drug bust.
21:32:02 [Workiephylax]
Bugs?
21:32:04 [Workiephylax]
Bugs Bunny?
21:32:11 [talli]
you can only have a big meth drug bust in socal.
21:32:12 [Workiephylax]
You silly silly wabbit...
21:32:22 [talli]
especially in the Inland Empire
21:32:37 [talli]
but i hear they have some cool ones up in oregon, too, according to donb
21:32:58 [hazmat]
or you can just have one across the us http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020110/ts/drugs_speed_dc_1.html
21:34:03 [vinod]
"The defendants are mostly of Middle Eastern descent,'' the DEA official said "
21:34:04 [talli]
wow. i didn't know mexico was in the middle east!
21:34:08 [talli]
that explains alot!
21:34:10 [vinod]
haha
21:34:22 [vinod]
you're one step ahead of me
21:34:23 [zoltan]
zoltan (~zoltan@CPE0050BAC94DB3.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #openacs
21:34:41 [vinod]
"noting they were from countries including Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, Kuwait and Mexico.
21:34:41 [talli]
at least, though, we have an example of pan-semitic cooperation
21:34:57 [vinod]
lol
21:34:57 [talli]
jews and arabs, getting along, working together...
21:35:22 [vinod]
all in the name of drugs and money
21:35:24 [talli]
and the mexicans, well, they're just always nice enough to help, too
21:36:42 [denshi]
brb
21:36:49 [talli]
vinod: do you see any kids coming into the clinic with any kind of symptoms from drugs?
21:36:57 [talli]
what are kids nowadays using most often?
21:37:24 [vinod]
not much. i let them have their fun
21:37:46 [talli]
you dealin' again?
21:37:54 [vinod]
you'd think mit students would be more creative, but mostly we get alcohol
21:38:06 [vinod]
sssssshhhhhhhhh
21:38:31 [vinod]
of course, maybe they're all high on homegrown drugs that we just can't detect
21:38:41 [hazmat]
creativity at its best.
21:38:43 [markd2]
smokin' play doh
21:38:50 [vinod]
haha
21:39:08 [talli]
play doh and jolt cola
21:40:29 [vinod]
redbull is the jolt replacement
21:40:47 [talli]
i heard that stuff is nasty. is there a lot of caffeine in it?
21:40:58 [talli]
they advertise and sell it at bars now
21:41:03 [vinod]
i think so. never tried it myself.
21:41:07 [talli]
maybe it's legal cocaine?
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22:01:27 [markd2]
rzolf iz in da häus
22:01:44 [rzolf]
hiz to the hizza.
22:02:01 [markd2]
q to the quizza
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22:45:44 [rbm]
* rbm wants some pizza
22:49:00 [Workiephylax]
muahahaha
22:59:51 [rbm]
* rbm heads home
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23:58:06 [hazmat]
quiet