02:27:12 ok, I remotely upgraded a potato box to woody :) 03:13:35 jim has quit ("[x]chat") 07:34:51 anlater (~antonio@212.34.222.62) has joined #openacs 09:20:47 vinod (~vinod@207-172-216-153.s661.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs 09:43:07 anlater has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 10:00:40 vinod has quit ("changing universes") 11:14:41 thugboat (thuggett@adsl-64-167-240-171.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #openacs 11:15:48 thugboat has quit (Client Quit) 14:12:30 ola (~staffan@as3-2-4.bot.s.bonet.se) has joined #openacs 17:53:00 HAPPY NEW YEAR! 18:07:40 HAPPY NEW YEAR! 18:10:48 ditto! :-P 18:22:06 markd2 (~markd2@166.102.30.146) has joined #openacs 18:39:28 :-) 18:40:08 * Psychephylax thwaps© markd2 with a big noisemaker 18:40:25 * Psychephylax thwaps© markd2 with a big noisemaker 18:40:28 hmm 18:40:35 * Psychephylax thwaps© markd2 with a big noisemaker 18:40:38 oh 18:40:40 it is working :-/ 18:41:10 heh 18:41:17 Hey Mark 18:41:22 How was your new year's 18:41:44 awesome 18:41:52 You get drunk wild crazy and stupid? 18:41:57 we spent the last 4 days at a freidn's farm out in the real middle of nowhere 18:42:03 nope - just hung around and did *nothing* 18:42:05 Shweeeet! 18:42:08 Oh that sucks 18:42:26 That's ok though, me and my friends gathered around got drunk off beer and played with my friend's XBOX 18:42:27 wait til you get older :-) 18:42:32 you'll appreciate doing nothing 18:42:34 Nothing like trying to race each other backwards 18:42:58 I already appreciate nothing, my parents aren't too happy with that but what do they want from me?! 18:43:02 I like being boring 18:44:38 hh 18:44:39 heh 18:45:18 I am going to be more boring than this by playing single player video games 18:45:56 before leaving for NewYears, I spent about 2-3 solid days on baldur's gate 18:46:03 so single player old computer games :-) 18:47:10 I gathered with a couple other friends and their families, ate cake and ice cream, played very fun card games, and talked funny stuff. 18:47:51 Shweet 18:48:02 screw games...SCI-FI = Greatness of television! 18:48:06 Twilight Zone marathon 18:48:21 I wonder if that's on DVD 18:49:49 markd2 has quit ("Bork") 18:50:57 [Global Notice] Hi all. Please do not attempt to join #secrets or #!/bin/sh at this time. They are currently infested with bots and attempting to join may cause the automation to kline you. If you run into any problems, please email support@openprojects.net. Thanks. 18:51:54 * Psychephylax gets VERY excited 18:53:44 http://www.thetwilightzone.net/dvd/dvd_orders_frameset.html 18:53:44 A: http://www.thetwilightzone.net/dvd/dvd_orders_frameset.html from Psychephylax 18:53:59 A:| Psyche's new year's resolution is to save 510$ to buy THAT 18:53:59 titled item A 18:54:12 A: Donations can be sent to me but first clear it with me :) 18:54:12 commented item A 19:01:05 $510?!?!? 19:01:10 Yes 19:01:20 yeah, that looks like a dvd. 19:01:21 I will buy it 19:01:25 No 19:01:29 what is it? 19:01:30 45 DVDs 19:01:33 Twilight Zone 19:01:35 oh 19:01:36 ALL OF THEM 19:01:38 all of them 19:01:40 hahaha 19:01:42 :-) 19:01:44 * Psychephylax drools 19:01:51 * Psychephylax drools all over the keyboard 19:02:05 :) 19:02:09 I will buy this 19:02:16 This is too good to pass up 19:02:38 Over 150 episodes 19:02:46 I can watch the whole collection 3 times a year 19:02:47 lol 19:02:52 if I watch one episode a day 19:02:59 haha 19:03:05 that makes no sence 19:03:10 What makes no sense? 19:03:18 * Psychephylax is very excited 19:03:42 you could watch them all two times a year... 19:03:59 unless you move to a mars 19:04:53 I can attain true happiness if I posess the following items: All the Simpsons episodes, all Star Trek (Original) on DVD,all of Twilight Zone 19:05:06 That would make me a very happy man 19:06:01 Hmmm...No talking for one year 19:14:07 we would miss you Psychephylax 19:14:12 hehehe 19:14:20 No, it's a TZ episode 19:24:39 ouch 19:24:56 Having to sever your vocal cords only to lose the 500,000$ the other dude never had 19:24:59 THAT does suck 19:39:32 talli (~talli@188.muka.lasv.snfccafj.dsl.att.net) has joined #openacs 19:39:34 what debian version should I use for a production system? potato,woody or sid? 19:39:40 hi talli 19:39:45 hey guys 19:39:52 Happy new year! 19:39:56 thanks, you too 19:40:09 ola: I have no trouble running sid in production systems, but I watch the debian-devel list. 19:40:18 If you don't want to do that, then I'd say woody 19:40:48 As I said before, Debian's unstable "release" is more stable than other distro's "stable" releases. 19:41:46 ok, thanks. can I install sid right awat or do I have to begin with woody? 19:42:00 s/awat/away 19:43:53 there are no cd images that I could find for sid... 19:44:56 ola: Install from the woody boot floppies, and then upgrade to sid 19:45:12 right. 19:46:55 the nice thing about debian is that it's so damn easy to upgrade a version 19:47:24 the bitch is that it always seems so difficult to install it in the first place. 19:48:06 there's been so much lobbying going on for Debian in this channel that I made myself a new year promise to change to it;-) 19:48:24 don't get me wrong - debian is indeed great 19:48:31 talli: that's why I gave it up the last time... 19:48:50 although, i think i will start a war by saying that i no longer trust linux as a "good" operating system 19:49:14 aha. you want Hurd...? 19:49:23 no, BSD 19:49:32 why is that? 19:49:34 i don't trust the QA of linux 19:49:58 and there is SO MUCH crap out there for linux that you no longer can be sure of what is good and what is not 19:50:19 take, for an example of the QA problem, the 2.4.15 fiasco 19:50:41 also, i read a thread where Linus basically said that the QA problem is a feature, not a bug 19:50:48 hold on, brb 19:53:05 hey 19:57:38 "QA Problem"? 19:57:47 ah, there he is :) 19:58:05 i was wondering when you would respond to that bait. 19:58:08 What's a QA? 19:58:08 yes, the QA problem 19:58:14 quality assurance 19:58:21 or rather, lack of it 19:58:37 *cough* 19:58:40 debian ownz 19:58:41 You don't follow linux-kernel do you? 19:59:04 no, i don't 19:59:11 if i did, would i have caught 2.4.15? 19:59:22 docwolf (~docwolf@sdn-ar-002flflauP179.dialsprint.net) has joined #openacs 19:59:24 That explains why you say that there's a lack of QA on "Linux" 19:59:29 howdy 19:59:40 Also, when you say "Linux" you mean the kernel or some distribution? 19:59:50 i mean the OS. the kernel 20:00:04 "the OS" is the kernel plus hundreds of other applications. 20:00:12 and everything that has been written to run exclusively on linux 20:00:17 the kernel alone is not an AS 20:00:20 s/AS/OS/ 20:00:31 i know that it's not an OS exclusively 20:00:40 i mean the OS. the kernel 20:00:53 but 2.4.15 basically destroyed the OS by eating a filesystem 20:01:05 that's INEXCUSABLE for a released piece of software 20:01:08 talli: Linux has good QA, you just need to use tested distros, People use kernel versions as soon as they come out are dismayed that they are unstable... 20:01:15 unless that's a feature, not a bug 20:01:33 uh oh. is this a linux vs. the world flamefest? 20:01:39 talli: The kernel developers are a tight group of very smart, dedicated individuals. Sh*t happens. They try their best to not let it happen, but it does. 20:01:45 no, linux vs. bsd, doc 20:02:01 rbm: i agree, but they don't do QA 20:02:07 they hack, and they release 20:02:08 The BSD guys are not exempt from that either. They try to pretend that they are better than everybody else, but that's just a mask for their jealousy. 20:02:16 That bullcrap. 20:02:21 s/That/That's/ 20:02:39 BSD is pretty cool though 20:02:52 i know a couple of the OpenBSD hackers. they are totally anal about QA 20:02:54 yeah, it is 20:02:55 I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying that they aren't exempt from mistakes. 20:02:56 if windows released something like 2.4.15, the linux world would be running around shoving it in their faces 20:03:03 OpenBSD is different. 20:03:04 (that's why they lag so far behind in "recent" software) 20:03:22 talli: I don't see how that has anything to do with the point in question. 20:03:50 only because the sh*t happens excuse is not legitimate 20:04:21 The BSD guys love to say thet the Linux kernel developers "hack and release". That's simply not true. 20:04:48 linux right now is developing at such a rapid rate that evolving the technology is more important to the developers then QA, i think. 20:04:55 well, linus says that's a feature! 20:05:01 beattiek: I disagree. 20:05:05 realy. 20:05:31 talli: How long have you exclusively used Linux for? 20:05:49 it's is going slow, or the devs care more about QA? 20:06:19 fwiw, i think linux as a "desktop" has a long, long way to go before it's up to snuff. I don't think that's what you guys are talkiing about though... 20:06:20 i don't. but what i do is run a company and try to convince clients that the software we use (like linux) is stable, tested and secure 20:06:58 redhat 6.2 is. 20:07:03 talli: So how can you make an assessment of something you don't really use? Trusting only what the developers of another OS say is not really a wise thing to do. 20:07:10 hmmm 20:07:12 i don't think i can do that with linux anymore. i can certainly do it better than with windows, but after reading linus' thoughts and watching 2.4.15 eat filesystems... 20:07:14 s/another/a competing/ 20:07:16 Any of you guys really good C programmers? 20:07:31 Or at least know enough to answer my question :) 20:07:39 Psychephylax: I can try. 20:07:42 ok 20:07:51 i do use it, as a server OS 20:07:59 i don't run it, and try not to touch it, but i 20:08:12 but i've invested a lot of time, energy and money into it 20:08:39 Is it difficult to write a server/client application where the client reports the size of a specific folder to the server? 20:08:42 talli: In the 4 years I've been following Linux, this was the first major thing that slipped. 20:08:45 also, i must admit that there is a surprisingly small number of major companies using linux for mission criticalstuff 20:09:10 talli are you grouping BSD with Linux? 20:09:26 Psychephylax: "folder"? 20:09:29 no, this is a BSD vs linux fight 20:09:33 Ah 20:09:38 Then I am on the BSD side ;-) 20:10:01 muwhahahahahaha!!!! take that, rbm! :) 20:10:03 Roberto, yes...For example C:\SIERRA\halflife 20:10:05 I think everybody should switch to Amoeba. 20:10:17 Psychephylax: That's a directory. 20:10:23 That's correct 20:10:24 i think Hurd might be interesting, if the thing is ever finished 20:10:39 folder/directory...same thing (too much windows influence :)) 20:10:40 talli: Take what? 20:11:01 Psychephylax is on my side. although i don't know if i should brag about that... 20:11:08 oh thanks! 20:11:26 Psychephylax: I don't know. I don't know if there's a POSIX system call to give you that. But if does, Windows probably doesn't implement it. 20:11:34 heh 20:11:58 Basically, I want to lock someone's directory size for a game 20:12:19 if they add stuff to alter the game in any way, then the person is considered cheating and they get banned on the server 20:12:37 I'm sure there will be ways around it but oh well 20:13:26 Psychephylax: Well, your client could simply recurse through the directory and send back the directory size to the server. 20:13:53 I'm sure it's easy to do in Windows (Right clicking shows you the byte size) 20:14:00 Psychephylax: Very easy to do in Python :-) 20:14:10 this is a windows thing :) 20:14:12 rbm: are you a python convert? 20:14:19 Psychephylax: I meant Your C app running on the client would do that. 20:14:22 Most people will not have python on their winderz machine 20:14:47 Psychephylax: actually, most people will soon have python on their win boxen, me thinks 20:14:54 heh 20:15:00 it's an important language in .net 20:15:02 Psychephylax: du -sh /directory does the same in Linux (and much faster IMHO) 20:15:23 talli: I've like Python for a long time. I like Tcl too. 20:15:27 heh 20:15:35 oh never mind, I won't argue with you all 20:15:40 s/^like/liked/ 20:15:45 rbm: which would you prefer? 20:15:53 talli: Depends on the job. 20:16:50 Psychephylax: You can "freeze" a Python script and bundle the interp with it. It'll add the ~9Mb of the interpreter and main libraries. 20:17:08 (which you can trim down to only the libs you use) 20:17:28 Twisted Python is very very cool for client/server stuff. 20:17:44 anyone know of a large-scale site that runs python? 20:18:05 * rbm shrugs 20:18:20 I don't like Zope though. 20:18:33 zope isn't the best. but i'm just wondering about python/aolserver 20:18:52 * rbm is porting part of the OpenACS 3.2.5 ecommerce module to PHP (*puke*) 20:19:10 nice! 20:19:17 you are joining the cult of rasmus 20:19:30 docwolf: The other day someone reported being able to access OACS 4 stuff from Python in AOLserver. 20:19:35 I *hate* PHP 20:19:40 rbm: cool. 20:19:48 the reason that i ask about python is b/c we may be using it 20:19:52 very soon 20:19:58 but i need some evidence that it won't blow apart 20:19:59 docwolf: Define "we" 20:20:30 "we" = my ultra-secret florida C-corporation 20:20:39 docwolf: i believe that yahoo uses python for their mail system 20:20:50 at least, i recall seeing some *.py urls there 20:20:53 talli: whoa! really??? 20:20:56 If anybody wants this PHP stuff later, let me know. 20:21:07 rbm: php and apache? 20:21:17 talli: PHP and whatever. 20:21:42 how do aolserver and php work together? 20:21:46 talli: The project I'm working on right now is on Apache, yes. 20:21:56 talli: You compile the php module for AOLserver. 20:22:18 our plan for my shady company will probably be to drive as much stuff 20:22:26 talli: Then you tell AOLserver to pass .php requests to the PHP module, and off you go. 20:22:35 into PG as is humanly possible, and then think about a decent scripting language to work with AOLserver. 20:23:00 ah, cool. but the php module is not like pywx right? it's not embedded into aolserver, or is it? 20:23:07 talli: It is. 20:23:11 cool 20:23:26 docwolf: is the idea to use ps/pgsql and sql mostly? 20:23:51 docwolf: Tcl 8 is pretty decent. Python is great too. 20:24:16 Man, It's impossible to follow #debian 20:24:34 docwolf: what's wrong with Tcl? 20:24:36 talli; you got it. 20:24:59 ola: the guy who is handling the coding may not want to use Tcl, since it doesn't have really deep libraries. 20:25:31 good point. 20:26:03 the issue is: we _know_ Tcl + AOLserver works, it's not clear to me whether or not python + AOLserver actually works as well. 20:26:29 docwolf: http://www.python.org/psa/Users.html 20:26:55 it seems that yahoo no longer uses python for its mail, at least i'm not sure if they do anymore 20:27:01 but google uses it for its spider 20:27:31 docwolf: "deep" libraries? 20:27:42 kapil thangevelu (hazmat) has been using python pretty extensively in conjunciton with aolserver. you may want to talk to him about it 20:27:53 talli: thanks! 20:28:14 docwolf: That's who I was trying to remember. hazmat was the one doing Python stuff in AOLserver. Thanks talli. 20:28:33 rbm: the number of libraries available for python is staggering. I don't think Tcl is the same way. 20:28:49 docwolf: You may be surprised. 20:30:02 docwolf: Talk to Michael Cleverly. He's the best Tcl guy I know. 20:30:09 michael@cleverly.com 20:30:12 rbm: again, it's not up to me. I've vowed to keep my nose out of decisions like this. 20:30:16 rbm: thanks. 20:30:35 He's done stuff with Tcl that I swore couldn't be done (or that didn't exist) 20:30:53 docwolf: re: Python, I think it's a great language. 20:31:46 rbm: i agree. I'm just concerned about the lack of real-world, high-volume sites that use it. my financial health is at stake... i'd rather not discover 3 months from now that python collapses under load, etc... 20:32:06 docwolf: Yeah. That's something to worry about :) 20:32:28 at least with Tcl, we all know that it can handle it! 20:32:35 I've never done web stuff with Python. I'd use it for most applications, but since I know Tcl+AOlserver works so well... 20:33:02 whoa! eGroups uses python?! 20:33:20 I'm going to write a game in Python+pygame 20:33:38 anyone know how to convert a number to a double in PHPuke 20:33:44 s/$/?/ 20:35:56 docwolf: maybe that's where i saw it on yahoo 20:36:14 on yahoo! groups, since that was formerly known as eGroups 20:36:47 wow. that's a pretty solid endorsement. 20:37:00 that is a serious web app. i wonder how much hardware it takes.. 20:42:21 docwolf has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:48:35 docwolf (~docwolf@sdn-ar-002flflauP179.dialsprint.net) has joined #openacs 20:52:16 docwolf: going over to yahoo groups, i don't see any *.py url endings. but the URLs are all very short and clean, so they seem to have coded the site well (at least from what one can gather from the length and appearance of URLs) 20:52:38 but i doubt that they totally went and rewrote a few hundred thousand lines of code that,uh, worked 20:52:53 yeah 20:53:06 i'm sure it's the same old python stuff with a pretty face. 20:53:36 what kinds of libraries are you guys hoping to use? 20:54:00 stuff for webmail, etc... 20:54:08 ahh... 20:54:17 then you should definetely speak with hazmat 20:58:01 rbm: why do you dislike PHP? 21:02:18 talli: Many things. globals, poor database support, loadable modules are inexistant, lack of namespaces, they are on the MySQL AB payroll, etc. 21:02:34 hmmm... 21:02:59 someone i respect very much told me PHP reminded them of a language built by high school kids 21:03:14 talli: That's exactly what it feels (and looks) like. 21:03:34 it does sound like the language equivalent of MySQL 21:03:40 I would add that the high school kids in PHP's case were drunk and/or stoned. 21:03:49 yowch 21:03:52 that bad, huh? 21:04:19 It's not _that_ bad, but it's very annoying. 21:04:23 rbm: i must confess a success story 21:04:39 i found out yesterday that an org selected us to develop their DB system 21:04:52 out of 74 proposals, they selected us 21:04:58 talli: Great. 21:05:20 we were able to convince them to use the OACS architecture rather than the weirdest combo in history: apache, tomcat, java and DB2 21:05:55 Argh. Java. 21:06:10 talli: Nice job. 21:06:30 i think the thing that convinced them more than anything is that we built them a demo that blew their minds away in about half a day, using AOLserver, PG and a bit of the OACS db API 21:06:31 talli: I'd be interested in how you went about convincing them. In fact, I think the whole community would be interested. 21:07:02 talli: Heheh. In Java it would take 3 months just to come up with a design of the demo :) 21:07:03 i'll try and write it up. but rolf once mentioned it on the bboards. 21:07:10 tell me about it 21:07:45 it's very convincing to take a piece of the client's requirements and build them a prototype that solves 60% of their system in a week 21:08:42 i think what convinced them also was the fact that we told them we have a lot of Java experience (luke worked at MS on some of their first java VMs and at aD on ACS Java 4.0) and that if they wanted to we could build it in that 21:09:05 but it just wouldn't make sense since we can do it so much faster and better using AOLserver and Tcl or Python 21:09:58 in fact, we said we would rather use apache-php before we used java and tomcat 21:10:12 also, i wrote 80 pages of proposal documentation :) 21:11:36 brb 21:12:13 heh 21:13:08 talli has left #openacs 21:18:35 docwolf has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:24:22 ola has quit ("changing universes") 21:31:33 who is docwolf? adam f? 21:32:31 hazmat: yes. 21:32:56 fyi, python is used at yahoo for yahoo mail, yahoo maps, and yahoo groups. 21:34:54 excellent 21:49:42 talli (~talli@188.muka.lasv.snfccafj.dsl.att.net) has joined #openacs 21:59:08 hello talli 22:00:22 hey hazmat. 22:00:27 talli: zocalo eh? Sounds cool. 22:00:44 yeah, it's a great name. but it sounds a lot like zope 22:00:53 Hmm. I don't think so. 22:01:11 well, if i would be all for it if others were down too 22:01:13 Maybe we should name it Shazam! 22:01:35 * hazmat doesn't understand the fuss over the name. 22:01:46 i liked your naked lady idea more :) 22:01:48 * rbm points hazmat to the long thread on oacs.org 22:01:53 i've seen it 22:02:05 i still think the name should stay the same 22:02:06 hazmat: i think it's only important to get rid of the arsDigita part 22:02:13 after that, i don't really care iether 22:02:16 well then lets change that 22:02:19 1) We don't want to be associated with aD anymore. 2) We want to avoid legal issues. 22:02:21 but keep the openacs name 22:02:43 hazmat: ACS is a trademark of ArsDigita isn't it? 22:02:49 why? because its brand recognition for the type of community based style that the toolkit signifies. 22:03:03 brb. eating 22:03:30 so they've given openacs the rights to use it as long as the openacs community doesn't incorporate acs java stuff. 22:04:09 they also haven't defended that the right wrt to us, which amounts to the fact that its indefensible in court. 22:04:54 see the adpl faq. 22:12:09 hazmat: i disagree. for one, no one knows about the OACS except for a few clued in hackers and others who may have read the Book 22:12:23 and two, having aD in the name is a killer in my experience 22:12:49 there is simply no reason to have ACS a part of the name anymore 22:14:22 imo, brand recognition is hard to come by. its an advantage for open source project. one that i don't think should be given up lightly. not to mention the book is out there, which lots of people have read, not all of which use the openacs (actually most don't) but regardless its still brand recognition and documentation into the style that the openacs encompasses. 22:15:29 but it's so small it may as well be negligeble 22:15:35 and what is aD goes under? 22:15:44 or if you're in competition with aD? 22:16:04 good question, would be still be arguing over name changes if aD was no more? 22:16:13 s/be/people 22:16:42 i think we would be screwed if the aD had gone under and we still had the name 22:16:54 if they had gone under, the name would have been changed already 22:17:23 interesting that the zope creators changed their names from digital creations to zope corporation. 22:17:55 yeah 22:18:01 btw, aD recently beat Zope head to head 22:18:10 i guess what i'm wondering is if aD references can be removed from the openacs. 22:18:14 talli: where? 22:18:25 at a large NGO in canada 22:18:48 i guess the marketing guys from zope were, um, twits. and the technical guys had no idea about how to sell. 22:18:53 yes, but what does that mean? 22:18:55 ah. 22:19:14 there was one guy from zope who told a quebecois guy, "are you from france?" 22:19:24 venture capital marketing helps to sell. 22:19:43 or at least buy savy marketing folks. 22:20:09 and the guys that presented the system to the stakeholders from the NGO gave them an entirely technical presentation, so no one understood it. 22:20:11 to me its a moot issue, since i'm only concerned about technical merits. 22:20:25 * hazmat will never be a good marketing person. 22:20:52 i guess what i'm wondering is if aD references can be removed from the openacs? 22:21:04 without changing the name. 22:21:23 you mean open architecture community system? 22:22:03 something like that 22:22:15 i guess it could be, but no one would get it 22:22:20 and it doesn't sound very nice 22:23:05 i figure if you;re going to change the name, might as well go all the way 22:25:48 vinod (~vinod@209-122-234-109.s2173.apx2.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs 23:04:55 talli: What do you mean by 'aD went head to head with Zope'? 23:08:27 i think talli meant in terms of trying to snag a client contract, in which aD won the contract. although talli's latter accounting seems to reflect that this was more a marketing battle than on technical merits. 23:25:59