00:00:12 the monitor for a dell laptop. C600 00:00:25 talli: The driver should be the "ati" driver. 00:00:30 talli: That's the driver I use. 00:01:05 i have an idea 00:01:41 talli: What's the laptop model? Dimension? 00:01:41 my dad angers me 00:02:08 he just called me up...only to ask if anyone called him, well knowing nobody likes him and nobody calls him *sigh* 00:02:17 dell latitude C600 with a 14.1 screen 00:04:57 talli: I can't find any useful info about it on dell's website 00:05:29 talli: Time to use your included Dell support and ask. 00:05:41 yeah, i know. :( 00:05:50 thanks for checking, though 00:06:16 redhat works 00:06:16 since dell bundles with redhat 00:06:22 but i don't want to run redhat, i don't trust it for some reason 00:06:31 heh 00:06:49 Roberto, I did go to the debian site looking for their images..but I could not find any ISO images 00:07:21 Psychephylax: Grab the boot floppies, and install from floppies. 00:07:22 anyway, i'll be back. gotta go eat with my folks 00:07:32 Psychephylax: Or you can try cdimage.debian.org 00:07:42 * talli is away: eating wid da folks 00:07:42 * talli is away: eating wid da folks 00:07:56 heh 00:08:02 I don't have any floppies 00:09:26 [#openacs] 00:09:28 I don 00:09:51 I don't need no pseudo-image thing I need the real thing 00:10:29 Psychephylax: it -is- the real thing. 00:10:46 It requires use of floppies 00:10:56 I do not OWN any usable floppies 00:11:02 I own about 300 blank cds though 00:11:06 netinst 00:11:14 and a 4.5 minute burner 00:11:26 and I can download their ISO in about 5 minutes as well 00:11:43 howbout downloading a much smaller image, burning that, and installing the base from that? 00:11:45 how do you suppose I netinst without a floppy 00:11:57 i don't trust net installs ;) 00:12:14 see, that's a major waste of bw that debian cd mirror admins pay for 00:13:01 debian just doesn't get $56mil/year or especially /project :) 00:13:34 heh 00:13:42 well, it's inconveniencing me :p 00:13:51 awww :) 00:14:08 Psychephylax: How about you donate 50 grand to the debian project. I'm sure with that donation they'd be happy to give you a CD image. 00:14:29 how about I download one of the other distributions that does offer me an ISO :p 00:14:34 they'll -deliver- you cd images, disks or masters :) 00:14:47 run what works best for ya :) 00:14:48 yes, infact, they will probably install it for me too 00:15:02 This is a free world (mostly). You do what you please. Debian is not really actively seeking new users. 00:15:08 but first, I don't have 50 G's 00:16:09 mmmm....850Kbs 00:17:46 * davb is jealous of Psychephylax's bandwidth. 00:17:49 [#openacs] 't n[#openacs]e 00:17:59 roadrunner maxes out at about 200Kbs 00:18:01 heh 00:18:01 WTH? 00:18:19 oooh...it jumped to 915 00:19:41 that reminds me. I have to burn a few Linux CDs to bring to the computer club. 00:20:08 you geek 00:20:09 lol 00:20:10 :-D 00:22:46 has anyone installed ETP with a recent CVS checkout? 00:23:34 Why, oh why did ArsDigita decide to write their documentation in XML? 00:23:54 s/XML/Docbook XML/ 00:23:59 I think the policy was to use the most complicated process to impress the clients. 00:24:08 It would have been so much easier to do it in Docbook SGML 00:25:35 but that is what everyone else does :) 00:25:48 Are you doing the OpenACS docs in Docbook? 00:26:03 Why is Docbook XML worse than DOcbook SGML? 00:26:59 * talli is no longer away 00:27:39 All languages that end in ML are evil ;-) 00:27:40 Because the SGML tools are much more mature and better documented than the XML counterparts. 00:28:35 If we were using SGML I would have at least 2 very good sources of documentation to point people to and to ask questions from: the PostgreSQL team and the Linux Documentation Project 00:28:58 Aha. 00:29:05 We're using XML, and I haven't seen _anyone_ that uses Docbook XML. 00:29:21 would it be impossible to switch now? 00:29:26 What happened to regular text :) 00:29:30 would you guys like to see the next generation ETP? 00:29:34 I've tried. Several times. 00:29:40 talli: yes 00:29:53 also how far away is it? I was going to build a site with the current one. 00:30:00 but I can wait a little. 00:30:18 jun yamog has done a great job rebuilding the interface 00:30:24 cool. 00:30:48 there needs to be some clean up done, so when luke gets back he's going to integrate the changes into ETP 00:31:28 jun's work uses pretty much just luke's prior work - he hasn't really touched the internals. that's because luke kicks ass. 00:31:35 cool. it looks great. I really like the icons. 00:31:41 that is true. 00:31:42 he did rebuild the interface, though, and did an amazing job at it too 00:32:08 I like the templat selection drop down. that is really nice. 00:32:20 brb 00:32:28 ok. 00:32:52 talli has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00:37:29 talli (~talli@ip64-75-146-211.dial.maui.net) has joined #openacs 00:38:30 hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #openacs 00:51:36 * Psychephylax is trying to use vi] 00:54:18 fun isn't it 00:54:53 :) 00:55:02 oh yeah 00:55:10 eVIl 00:55:18 there's a reason why vi is called vi 00:56:41 heh 00:56:44 it works. 00:57:00 ee, pico, joe, ed, emacs they all work too 01:01:42 heh 01:01:52 I only got 2 Cs in my CS courses 01:02:11 all other ones are in stupid courses like history and other BS courses 01:05:00 bbl 01:05:04 i hope 01:47:38 Errr. What's wrong with new-file-storage? 01:47:38 talli has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 01:47:52 Talli! 02:29:39 moo 02:30:01 * rbm feels better now that he made that last post to the bboards 02:35:41 thx rbm 02:41:34 hey beattiek 02:47:43 hey 02:47:57 i'm quick, 6 minutes 02:49:40 rbm: what linux are you using? (if any) 02:51:32 beattiek: I use Linux 98% of the time I'm using a computer. 02:51:42 yeah, what flavor? 02:51:44 beattiek: I run Debian sid. 02:51:53 interesting 02:52:02 hmm 02:52:25 do you know if anyone is considering managing OACS for debian? 02:52:31 I see you're on #debian 02:52:37 The package? 02:52:40 yeah 02:52:42 officialy 02:52:52 I thought there was someone managing the 3.2.x package 02:52:58 yeah, kinda 02:53:08 it is poorly managed 02:53:18 well, i think it is. 02:53:21 roberto@brasileiro:/back/docs/nwalsh$ apt-cache show openacs 02:53:23 Package: openacs 02:53:28 Maintainer: Eric Van Buggenhaut 02:53:35 Oh. 02:54:10 One of the things in my TODO list is to learn how to create debian packages. 02:54:17 when you install it it just dumps an install script and some files on your computer 02:54:31 and the script didn't work for me 02:54:32 I haven't tried to install the package to be honest. 02:54:40 well i was just testing 02:54:52 i wanted OACS 4 anyway 02:54:57 but it is disapointing 02:55:08 The original package was written by Brent Fulgham, then Eric took it over. 02:55:22 i think you should be able to apt-get install openacs-4 and thats is 02:55:27 is = it 02:55:34 Are you planning to use 4.x? It'd be awesome to have a Deb package of 4.x 02:55:43 i'm using it now 02:55:49 excellent 02:56:54 If you can whip up a 4.x package, that'd be most excellent. 02:57:48 hmm, i'll try to whip it up, i'm newish to debian but i have made a package before... 02:58:27 Talk to Eric about the 3.x package and his feeling of a 4.x package. You may be able to work together and help each other. 02:58:35 It would be nice if there was a version of postgres with the driver included 02:58:49 in debian that is 02:58:52 the AOLserver driver? 02:59:01 yes 02:59:22 I think in debian everything should work if you type apt-get openacs-4 02:59:59 Hmm. I thought there was an aolserver-postgres package, upon which openacs depended. 03:00:00 well maybe the install should be in there : 03:00:18 nope. 03:00:24 i don't think 03:00:43 We should talk to Brent about this then. 03:00:51 Depends: aolserver, postgresql, postgresql-client, libpgtcl, perl5 03:03:09 I actualy couldn't get the driver to compile, so i just used someone elses. 03:03:41 but if i get a nack for making debian packages, I would like to package the whole OACS 4 03:04:34 then once the psets are revised, and the beginers manual is complete, It might be tought in some schools. 03:11:06 that'd be great 03:26:30 bbl 03:29:02 beattiek: I can tell you where to start looking... Normally, 03:30:26 I'd suggest contacting the maintainer who has in the past packaged pieces that make up openacs (*, aolserver, pg) Brent Fulgham, however he's unreceptive to problem reports 03:33:38 there are many ways to start learning to package... one good way, is get gnu hello source, read every file, then get several versions of gnu hello as packaged in debian (i.e., its source for each version). each will expose a different mode of packaging, or packaging for a specific version of debian for which certain specific features exist. 03:34:55 another aspect, is what's available in debian's base (marked as base or essential or both); you're guaranteed the presence of them 03:36:02 some shells, an editor or two, grep, a carving of perl meant for the base of debian, problem-solving tools. 03:37:43 there is a pretty well-factored tool used to carry out little specific pieces of package installs, removes, builds, called debhelper... it has a largish handful of small tools each having a man page 03:38:17 other than that... http://www.debian.org/devel/ is the developer's corner 03:39:22 there is a mailing list, debian-mentors, meant for packaging questions. archives and signup at http://lists.debian.org 03:50:32 bah! 03:51:00 Is it too much to ask for an ability to boot Linux, XP and Win2K from one menu without having to do weird things? 03:53:25 did you take SICP? 03:53:52 SICP? 03:54:00 No, I took a sledgehammer to my computers...or about to 03:54:23 Damn it! 03:54:26 HAL is missing 03:54:54 *shrug* at some point, you'll need to understand aspects of your computer... its hardware and how it boots are two 03:55:24 I know HOW it boots 03:55:34 the problem is trying to combine all these things correctly 03:55:43 XP lost HAL 03:55:59 See what happens when you let XP have ANY responsibility?! 03:57:03 see, microsoft claims ownership of several aspects of your computer in the name of making things simple for you, one of those is the master boot record 03:57:15 :P 03:57:50 the unfortunate consequence of that, is it will rewrite the boot record if it thinks it's been changed 03:58:16 in order to make sure it's the only thing that can boot 03:58:43 jim: you have made .debs right? 03:58:51 yeah, a few 03:59:33 I guess you probably should talk to Brent, or look at his packaging of openacs3 03:59:38 yeah 03:59:43 well 04:00:01 okay 04:00:34 but remember that bug in the aolserver pg driver, where if aolserver called up a non-existant table, aolserver would die without terminating? 04:01:24 this was a year or three ago 04:03:56 (if you don't set up your openacs correctly, and tables or views are missing, it's not nice to crash and never serve another page again just because some aolserver thread/tcl script called up one of those tables... 04:04:42 ) anyway, I reported this bug to Brent, and he -refused- to even consider that it might exist 04:05:12 as of that moment, I built my own: aolserver, postgres, driver 04:05:40 and never used/trusted his packages again 04:13:25 rbm: are you still around" 04:14:35 jim: I don't blame you 04:15:06 well, the packages were useless with a bug like that... 04:16:00 for my purposes, anyway... and the purposes of anyone connecting that aolserver to the postgres in that dist 04:16:07 6.5.3 or somethnig 04:16:20 something 04:18:15 and getting the brick-wall treatment from the maintainer didn't exactly garner my trust 04:22:09 I need to give this package a configurable install. 04:41:15 ok, hang onto your hat, the best thing to do is look into debconf 04:41:58 it's a mechanism for deferring and storing common questions asked in service of install of multiple packages 04:45:47 moo 04:46:06 hiya 04:46:48 jim: I read the backlog. I've talked to Brent before about taking ownership of the aolserver packages. He seemed okay with thta. 04:47:40 talli (~talli@ip64-75-146-64.dial.maui.net) has joined #openacs 04:47:42 I'd love to have good aolserver+openacs packages 04:48:52 The aolserver-postgres package seems to be up for adoption: http://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/rfa_bypackage 04:48:53 rbm: ok, that might be a cool thing... I'm not sure how it works, but under certain conditions, software authors can get maint status 04:49:09 talli has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:49:11 izzat so :) 04:49:22 and aolserver too 04:49:33 he orphaned em? 04:49:57 I would like to find a maintainer (preferably outside the US) who could 04:49:57 take over AOLserver. This would allow the packaging of SSL and other 04:49:57 security modules. 04:49:58 -Brent 04:50:41 maybe you and ben would be interested in talking to debian about maintaining ocs/oacs in debian 04:52:11 Yeah. I've never done a package though. 04:54:00 * rbm attempts to learn how to create Debian packages 04:54:43 you can look at packages from the opposite end than from the source... 04:54:47 a .deb 04:54:51 is an ar 04:54:58 I know 04:55:12 But packaging them into a deb is what I don't know 04:55:51 there's nothing as refined as problem sets to learn from 04:56:23 but in the scroll back I wrote up a buncha packaging stuff 04:56:31 plus, you could ask for a mento 04:56:32 r 04:59:18 Cool. 04:59:43 did you see all that stuff? :) 04:59:43 I think the psets are very important for OACS. I hope someone takes over "porting" them to OACS 4 (*hint hint*) 04:59:59 yep. 05:00:04 I don't -know- oacs 4 :P 05:00:16 however... 05:00:38 I envision the psets as part of a "Beginners' Guide" 05:01:46 if someone wants to do a slow bootcamp... " ... (*hint hint*)" 05:02:14 like over the net here, so I could take and alter and such 05:02:36 kill two birdies with one bogey! 05:02:40 a bootcamp? 05:02:55 analogous to, 05:03:19 There's not that needs to be changed from the ACS 4.x psets to the OACS 4.x psets, really. 05:03:27 s/not/not much/ 05:03:46 Wife called. Gotta go get her at work. 05:03:48 bbl 05:03:51 ok 05:08:42 jim: we already dicussed the IRC/bboard boot camp right? 05:09:03 to some degree 05:09:35 Ok. I think its probably the best way to approach it without a centralized entity to run a bootcamp. 05:10:09 Actually linux.org or someplace has IRC Linux installfests. I thought it would be good to get volunteers to hang out here after the release for an OpenACS 4 installfest. 05:10:36 IRC is more receptive to little annoying questions. You don't want your silly mistake emailed to 100s of people :) 05:11:19 Possibly even a FAQ bot so we wouldn't have to keep typing the answers to the common questions. 05:13:25 davb: thats a good idea 05:14:32 if I can get a couple volunteers :) 05:14:55 Probably a debian, redhat, etc... 05:15:19 this thing run on mac osx or win? 05:15:26 OS X yes. 05:15:29 Win, maybe. 05:15:57 AOLserver support on windows is iffy. AOLserver 4.0 removes all support for windows (if it is ever released) 05:16:45 talli (~talli@ip64-75-146-69.dial.maui.net) has joined #openacs 05:16:55 not released yet? lessee, ok, aD bought aolserver... hmmm, can't depend on that 05:17:08 ? 05:17:11 hey guys 05:17:16 hey talli 05:17:19 hi talli 05:17:49 is rbm still here? 05:18:09 According to the AOL developers, the windows support was messy. Taking it out made it better on the other platforms. 05:18:16 Wife called. Gotta go get her at work. 05:18:16 bbl 05:18:28 ah, thanks 05:18:55 that was 15 minutes ago. 05:19:15 talli: does that upload a file thing add a new ETP page? (on that demo site) 05:19:22 the fact that the aol guys took out win support is totally understandable, but a bit of a bummer. i know of at least one person who is porting OACS to win 05:19:39 hmm... the upload a file thing... 05:19:52 lemme check some of the emails between luke and jun 05:20:04 no big deal, just curious :) 05:20:13 i know it was an issue they were discussing about how to implement picture attachments 05:20:21 i don't know if it goes into the DB 05:20:24 that too :) 05:21:09 jim: the documentation status report has a potential Win2000 install guide, no volunteer to write it yet. 05:23:43 jim, if you're interested in the win stuff, i suggest you email john sequiera who is currently porting OACS to work on SQL2000 or SQL Server, whatever it's called 05:23:51 his email is johnseq@pobox.com 05:24:55 wow! 05:25:10 that would be cool. I might be able to sneak it in at work someday. 05:25:16 john is a HARDCORE programmer. he's great 05:25:43 he's a big perl fan so he hacked together some scripts to suck out the special stuff 05:26:04 and he gets a lot of gigs that are win based and he would like to use the OACS 05:26:15 really amazing. 05:26:25 * jim began work on a project to let perl be an aolserver language 05:26:33 also nifty. 05:26:56 jim, i would DEFINITELY suggest talking to john then 05:27:08 he loves perl, as it seems you do as well 05:27:47 i know there are others that would really like to work on rebuilding some of the core pieces of OACS in python using pywx 05:28:29 it would be really interesting, if modules could be in different languages. 05:28:43 not necessarily efficient, but interesting :) 05:29:00 that might become a big mess, if it did happen. just to maintain continuity between the modules 05:29:19 but python is a much more feature complete language, and it's got a much bigger community 05:29:41 i do really worry about tcl, only because there are about three or four people working on improving the language 05:29:59 too bad AOLserver wasn't designed to allow pluggable lanaguages. 05:30:11 yeah... if Phil's vision was any guiding light, you have as few languages as possible and stick with them 05:30:15 The tcl is embedded deep into AOLserver. 05:30:50 I embedded perl to a similar depth 05:30:54 That idea is more generic AOLserver than specific to OpenACS. 05:31:03 Really? Not as a module? 05:31:16 yes, it is a modules 05:31:32 originally, it wasn't 05:31:33 It will get great to see that code. 05:31:44 i think that philg's vision for the ACS was actually to be rather agnostic as far as languages. 05:31:51 sourceforge.net/projects/perl-aol 05:31:58 I have yet to learn C, but have heard that it's written nicely. 05:32:22 i spoke to him once and he said he wanted to maintain the data model, but he didn't care so much about the languages. 05:32:33 so he wanted one written in java, in VB, in tcl, etc. 05:32:35 then why was he resistant to java? 05:32:40 that would have been a nightmare 05:32:47 he wasn't resistant to java, AFAIK 05:32:58 in fact, he had jin port ACS3.4 to java at one point 05:33:17 the datamodel is the most important part. 05:33:46 agreed 05:34:24 someone should test the create or replace procedure thing of pg 05:34:50 jim, have you looked at pywx at all? 05:34:52 (create fn a, fn b that calls a, replace a... boom?) 05:35:09 no, sure haven;t, nor at python 05:35:56 http://pywx.idyll.org/ 05:35:56 A: http://pywx.idyll.org/ from talli 05:36:06 anlater: python module for AOLserver 05:36:18 anlater: python module for AOLserver 05:36:19 use a big A 05:36:23 i did 05:36:28 A: python module for AOLserver 05:36:28 commented item A 05:36:34 anyway, jim check it out 05:36:38 :) 05:36:50 it might interest you insofar as your development of the perl module 05:36:56 talli: the completion got you 05:37:04 pywx is fairly mature, and i've heard GREAT things about it 05:37:26 yeah, i'm using a new IRC client, which is very cool, but it does things differently 05:37:41 anyone ever use Klient on win boxen? 05:37:51 I noticed it, it started a bit after I started; I ran into problems, back back burnered the code 05:38:11 i noticed that there are notes about your progress from oct 2000 05:38:45 btw, if you have a page on debian.org, why are you worried about OACS on win? i came into the win convo late 05:39:09 never heard of it. I have been using Chatzilla. 05:39:22 yeah... I changed the internal data structures around, and the object destructors started crashing aolserver... 05:39:36 haven't gotten back to it yet 05:39:59 davb: http://www.klient.com 05:40:18 had a new "bright idea" about how to implement the aolserver structures... hasn't worked well 05:41:04 hmmm... like i said, talk to john sequiera 05:41:05 i'll send an intro email, if you would like 05:41:09 john is hardcore 05:41:19 well, I don't like windows much... but if oacs' goals include a port to it, I shouldn't stand in its way 05:41:42 is he deep into the internals? 05:41:53 of perl that is 05:42:20 he may be 05:42:28 my problem was one of reference counting 05:42:30 he's one of those freaks that likes to look at shit like that for fun 05:43:34 yeah, I was into parsing algorithms pretty deeply when I was a kid 05:44:37 got into lisp pretty heavily, got a copy of "Anatomy of Lisp", did some of the evaluators 05:44:52 well, john is married, so he has no excuse 05:45:33 Time for me to depart. 05:45:42 seeya davb 05:45:46 bye 05:45:49 davb has quit ("I'm too lame to make a quit message") 05:46:23 all right. i need to go shower. 05:46:28 just got off the beach :) 05:46:48 anyway, jim i suggest you ping john to intro yourself, or i can do it if you would like 05:47:01 i think he would be really into the perl module because he prefers developing in perl 05:47:19 if he could plug into aolserver with perl he would be real excited 05:47:59 like i said, his email is johnseq@pobox.com 05:48:02 I was looking into having perl scripts be aolserver config files 05:48:14 cool 05:48:19 all right, talk to you guys later 05:48:25 have a good night 05:48:27 seeya talli 05:48:30 talli has quit ("See ya!") 07:30:01 rbm_ (rmello@fslc.ser.usu.edu) has joined #openacs 07:47:05 rbm has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:13:26 anlater has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:40:21 rbm_ has quit (forward.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 08:40:44 rbm_ (rmello@fslc.ser.usu.edu) has joined #OpenACS 08:58:52 anlater (~antonio@212.34.222.62) has joined #openacs 11:11:36 anlater has quit (Remote closed the connection) 11:20:07 rbm_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 11:29:54 rbm_ (~rmello@fslc.ser.usu.edu) has joined #openacs 13:13:15 davb (~dave@alb-24-58-160-135.nycap.rr.com) has joined #OpenACS 13:14:45 djg (~dirk@pD9587ACE.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #openacs 13:16:43