00:09:20 <davb> Excellent. 
00:09:27 <davb> I agree, I am just super cheap :)
00:09:33 <davb> go firewire.
00:09:54 <davb> What is SCSI up to now anyway? Last I heard 160M/s
00:13:20 <rbm> The truth is that IDE can never sustain the bandwidth is claims to.
00:13:30 <rbm> s/is$/it/
00:13:34 <davb> right, most people don't need it though :)
00:13:45 <rbm> I'm not "most people"
00:13:56 <davb> Ok. good point.
00:14:37 <davb> Also as donb has said before I think, SCSI drives are sometimes made to last longer than IDE drives.
00:15:03 <rbm> I'd disagree with the point that "most people don't need it". If people didn't need it, why do they keep buying faster and faster drives when slower ones (that "most people" could live with) are available for cheaper"
00:15:41 <davb> they do? 
00:16:08 <rbm> Just go to any computer store and you'll see people asking "Is it ATA 66? Is it ATA 100?"
00:16:23 <jim> those are still inexpensive drives
00:16:32 <jim> here's a thought tho...
00:16:32 <davb> THats called marketing :) We all know that no harddrive can sustain those rates. 
00:16:36 <Psychephylax> bah
00:17:07 <jim> you could get a 3ware card and hook ide drives to that :)
00:17:14 <davb> All I know if Windows 98 requires a pile of RAM to run :)
00:17:17 <Psychephylax> Heh
00:17:37 <Psychephylax> The reason people as "Is it ATA100 or ATA66" is because they don't know any better
00:17:59 <jim> unfortunately I lost most of my trust in Quantum... they made the best scsi drives for a long time
00:18:07 <Psychephylax> Same thing with processor speeds
00:18:32 <jim> processor speeds are largely irrelevent as compared to ram size
00:18:39 <Psychephylax> Right
00:18:48 <Psychephylax> Same thing with hard drives
00:19:02 <jim> but scsi vs ide is a very large difference
00:19:02 <Psychephylax> Exactly what does ATA100 do much much better than ATA66?
00:19:14 <Psychephylax> Right, I'm not talking about scsi vs. ide now
00:19:23 <davb> It can possibly in the best case transmit 100Mb/sec.
00:19:47 <davb> But it supports what, 2 devices per channel? No harddrive can sustain 50Mb/sec that I am aware of anyway...
00:20:11 <jim> cable tight, both sides can do it, etc
00:20:43 <Psychephylax> it all depends on the rest of the components
00:21:07 <davb> Right. Anyway, I wish I had the $$$ for a real server with actual SCSI Drivers etc...
00:21:17 <Psychephylax> heh don't we all?
00:21:25 <Psychephylax> I have one at work :) as a desktop lol
00:21:31 <jim> yep... other components on the same cable can cause the controller to negotiate a slower rate
00:21:36 <davb> Although if I can find a bargain like rbm did for a controller, and maybe a couple of drives...
00:21:53 <Psychephylax> It's funny
00:22:17 <rbm> davb: eBay has pretty good deals on controllers :)
00:22:21 <jim> the drives are the money bottleneck... even scsi burners are relatively cheap
00:22:30 <Psychephylax> I'm still using an Athlon 550 as my primary computer while people with Athlon XP 1900's are soon to be a norm
00:23:04 <davb> Hey, I have an AMD K6-2/400
00:23:06 <jim> pentiums are still trying to seem faster :)
00:23:22 <Psychephylax> Funny thing is, the only reason why you might need a top of the line computer is to play games
00:23:23 <jim> I have a coppermine 667
00:23:28 <rbm> I have a K6-2 300
00:23:39 <Psychephylax> That's what my parents use
00:23:44 <davb> But I am running out of room to stuff RAM in. It only takes 384M max.
00:24:12 <jim> rbm: which probably compares in the ballpark (better than the ratio between our respective processor speeds)
00:25:05 <jim> mine takes 1.5g, but I'm not spending on 512 mb sticks :P
00:25:23 <jim> so 768 mb is the best I'm gonna get anytime soon
00:25:43 <Psychephylax> heh
00:26:08 <jim> and I own the third 256mb stick too :P
00:26:48 <jim> (not a big feat, got it sorta recently when ram prices dropped)
00:27:08 <Psychephylax> 20$ 
00:27:11 <Psychephylax> can't beat that! lol
00:27:20 <jim> well
00:27:28 <jim> probably true...
00:27:58 <jim> are 512mb sticks proportionally priced atm?
00:28:26 <Psychephylax> I don't think so
00:28:32 <Psychephylax> Memory prices are up on the rise
00:28:43 <jim> I figured as much
00:28:52 <jim> 256 mb is already passe
00:29:00 <jim> sheesh :)
00:29:05 <Psychephylax> lol
00:29:11 <jim> everyone in the country can run oracle :P
00:29:18 <Psychephylax> I'm thinking of buying a new processor and motherboard and ram
00:29:25 <rbm> I found this Plextor 16/10/40 on buy.com (IDE) for $98 after $30 rebate
00:29:31 <davb> Excellent.
00:29:37 <davb> too bad its IDE.
00:29:37 <Psychephylax> Yeah but only 1/100000 of them will know what Oracle actually is...and it's not that chick from The Matrix
00:30:20 <rbm> I am winning an auction for a 12x SCSI plextor on ebay right now. Cross your fingers/
00:30:37 <jim> how much?
00:30:38 <Psychephylax> What is it at?
00:30:39 <rbm> $100
00:30:43 <jim> wow
00:30:45 <Psychephylax> How much time left?
00:30:53 <rbm> 1 hour an 30 mins
00:30:55 <Psychephylax> Are you going to snipe it?
00:31:01 <Psychephylax> Or just hope nobody bids more
00:31:04 <rbm> snipe it?
00:31:17 <Psychephylax> heh..yeah...wait for the last few seconds then umm...do stuff :p
00:31:33 <Psychephylax> I find that bidding in the last 5 minutes works well
00:32:01 <jim> you better have your clock synced to an ntp server :P
00:32:10 <rbm> I do :)
00:32:19 <Psychephylax> at 3 min left..place a tiny bid just to see if anyone else is watching....Then, in the last 20 seconds make the bid that I am actually willing to make
00:33:02 <jim> not a bad idea
00:33:31 <jim> I need a good ps laser printer
00:34:14 <jim> not an hp 5si or anything, but maybe slower and comparable
00:35:09 <Psychephylax> 4M 
00:35:28 <Psychephylax> They're big...but you can drop it off a 3rd story building and it will print like it's brand new
00:35:35 <jim> wow
00:35:39 <jim> how much?
00:35:45 <Psychephylax> Let's just say the guys from Office Space can't do much to it lol
00:35:51 <Psychephylax> Ummm, not sure, they're ooold 
00:36:11 <jim> hmm, I'm not so sure I want old...
00:36:19 <Psychephylax> :-/
00:36:22 <jim> especially not any apple laser printers
00:36:54 <jim> this lab had a color one... always broken
00:37:09 <jim> then they got 2 5sis, which rocked
00:38:58 <Psychephylax> 4L is not bad
00:39:01 <Psychephylax> They're small 
00:45:26 <rbm> * rbm goes home
00:45:36 <rbm> keep your fingers crossed for my auction.
00:57:02 <jim> rbm: good luck. but keep watch
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02:36:06 <rbm> I won the auction at eBay for the SCSI burner!
02:36:23 <rbm> $100 for a 12x SCSI Plextor burner
02:40:22 <Psychephylax> cool
04:10:31 <Psychephylax> hmm
04:33:44 <rbm> hmmm
04:42:28 <Psychephylax> roberto is awake
04:42:36 <Psychephylax> everyone stop what you're doing :-/
04:42:40 <Psychephylax> Moo!
04:48:01 <rbm> heheh
04:48:13 <rbm> Still 9:50 PM here in Utah :)
04:48:36 <Psychephylax> bah
04:48:46 <Psychephylax> What should I install
04:48:52 <Psychephylax> FreeBSD 4.4 or Mandrake 8.1
04:49:15 <rbm> What's the machine for?
04:49:26 <Psychephylax> nothing
04:49:27 <Psychephylax> lol
04:49:30 <Psychephylax> I have too many
04:49:42 <rbm> Then Debian.
04:49:43 <Psychephylax> Actually...It's this machine but I want to dual boot it...
04:49:46 <Psychephylax> why Debian?
04:49:57 <rbm> Because Debian is awesome :)
04:50:03 <Psychephylax> ;)
04:50:07 <Psychephylax> FreeBSD is not too shabby
04:50:20 <rbm> I haven't playes with BSD in a while
04:50:26 <Psychephylax> i like it
04:50:29 <Psychephylax> So easy to maintain
04:50:49 <Psychephylax> Only thing that bugs me about BSD is the fact that it's hardware support is a bit behind Linux
04:51:04 <rbm> Debian is absurdly easy to maintain.
04:51:22 <Psychephylax> really?
04:52:06 <rbm> Yep. And the distribution is very well laid out. Things really make sense in Debian
04:52:15 <Psychephylax> cool
04:52:26 <Psychephylax> How's it's install and hardware support?
04:52:42 <Psychephylax> It sounds like a LinSD ;)
04:52:53 <Psychephylax> bad joke
04:52:56 <rbm> The install is for someone who knows what Linux is. It's not for computer-illiterate folks.
04:52:56 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax hangs his head
04:53:11 <Psychephylax> What is li-nu-x?
04:53:18 <rbm> The hardware support is a kernel-dependent thing
04:53:38 <Psychephylax> hmmm
04:53:43 <Psychephylax> I'll give FreeBSD a try
04:53:51 <Psychephylax> I think having too many OSes confuses me easily
04:54:15 <rbm> If you're going the BSD route, you should probably look at OpenBSD instead. FreeBSD will just be like Linux.
04:54:32 <Psychephylax> I know
04:54:35 <Psychephylax> I used FreeBSD
04:54:39 <Psychephylax> and still do on my server
04:54:46 <rbm> * rbm waits for a BSD zealot to come after him with a machete for daring to say FreeBSD is like linux
04:54:47 <Psychephylax> I want a *nix desktop system
04:54:55 <Psychephylax> lol
04:55:06 <Psychephylax> See, FreeBSD is great
04:55:13 <Psychephylax> it's like "Set it and forget it" type deals
04:55:31 <Psychephylax> hell, I haven't rebooted the server for 5 months
04:55:54 <Psychephylax> I like Mandrake..but it's a bitch to update
04:55:54 <rbm> That's how Debian is
04:56:07 <rbm> (set it and forget it)
04:56:07 <Psychephylax> Their update system just plain sucks
04:56:17 <rbm> updating and maintaining Debian is of course, very easy
04:56:44 <Psychephylax> Does it recursively fetch dependencies it needs?
04:56:49 <rbm> Yep
04:57:03 <Psychephylax> is there a quick and easy way to update the installed system?
04:57:35 <rbm> Yes. Very easy. apt-get update; apt-get upgrade
04:57:36 <rbm> That's all.
04:57:45 <Psychephylax> Hmmmmm
04:57:54 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax adds "Try Debian" to his List of things to do
04:58:01 <rbm> I'm going home now. bbiab
04:58:06 <Psychephylax> ok
04:58:07 <Psychephylax> later
04:58:11 <Psychephylax> I'm going to install BSD ;)
04:58:14 <Psychephylax> I love it too much
04:58:23 <Psychephylax> Then once I get frustrated I'll install Deb
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11:42:34 <beattiek> Psychephylax: Debian ownz. ;p
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17:26:32 <davb> Cool, emas 21 is available for Windows.
18:10:47 <Psychephylax> bah!
18:10:59 <Psychephylax> brb
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19:55:38 <Psychephylax> hey dave
19:55:55 <davb> hi
19:55:58 <Psychephylax> :-)
19:56:03 <Psychephylax> Computers suck!
19:56:20 <davb> I am trying to use ETP and I am stuck. Luckily everyone at musea is on vacation :)
19:56:26 <davb> Yeah I know.
19:56:26 <Psychephylax> lol
19:56:36 <Psychephylax> what are you stuck on
19:57:41 <davb> It is supposed to be able to be mounted on the home page, but it redirected to /etp/ instead, screwing up  my navigation.
19:58:05 <davb> I want to have different sections off the root, but it is putting them under /etp/
19:58:16 <davb> I probably did something dumb.
19:59:07 <Psychephylax> Did you create an /etp mount in APM?
19:59:31 <davb> yep.
19:59:55 <davb> you are supposed to be able to symlink the URL handler into www/ 
20:02:11 <Psychephylax> i think you're supposed to add it under / not /etp
20:02:13 <Psychephylax> :0
20:02:57 <davb> could be, I think I had it working before 
20:11:28 <Psychephylax> :p
20:12:49 <davb> I know it works, etp.museatech.net does it :)
20:16:05 <jim> ok...
20:16:25 <jim> what are the current versions of things for oacs 4?
20:16:48 <jim> (aolserver/pg/any drivers)
20:17:03 <davb> Aolserver I think 3.3+ad13 is the best.
20:17:10 <davb> pg 7.1.3
20:17:14 <davb> ns_xml 1.4
20:17:18 <davb> pgdriver 2.1
20:17:25 <jim> is ad13 gpl?
20:17:32 <davb> Yes. It has to be :)
20:18:05 <jim> heh, now those VCs are working for us :)
20:18:10 <davb> or at least it has to be the AOLserver license
20:18:24 <jim> which in turn allows gpl
20:18:24 <davb> but I think its GPL because AOLserver is dual licensed.
20:18:36 <davb> right.
20:19:03 <davb> I found the code that is supposed to trick the system to serve ETP pages from the pageroot.
20:19:40 <jim> not pg 7.2?
20:19:59 <davb> There is a bug or discrepency that breaks OpenACS 4.
20:20:12 <davb> is 7.2 released yet?
20:20:23 <jim> ahh
20:23:26 <hazmat> pg7.2 not released yet.
20:23:30 <davb> ok.
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20:32:01 <Psychephylax> bah
20:32:02 <Psychephylax> it's cold
20:32:20 <davb> yes it is.
20:35:15 <davb> yep, its broken.
20:35:18 <davb> ETP that is.
20:35:23 <davb> I think :)
20:36:22 <davb> hmmm.
20:43:16 <davb> weird.
20:43:42 <davb> oops.
20:43:48 <davb> I seem to have killed the database.
20:47:40 <davb> Ok, I have had enough. I guess I'll wait for Luke to answer my email.
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23:06:10 <davb> hi talli
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23:07:00 <davb> well...
23:14:31 <rbm> hey davb
23:14:56 <davb> hi rbm
23:31:28 <rbm> how are you doing?
23:31:50 <talli> talli (~talli@ip64-75-146-41.dial.maui.net) has joined #openacs
23:35:23 <rbm> hi talli
23:35:42 <rbm> How's that double blind peer review package you told me Musea was working on coming?
23:36:51 <rbm> and do you still want to have docs.openacs.org or something like that?
23:37:38 <talli> it's coming along reasonably well.
23:37:43 <talli> and yes, docs.openacs.org
23:37:43 <talli> is a good idea
23:37:55 <rbm> hang on, phone
23:37:55 <talli> that is a piece i can work on, if you would like
23:39:13 <Psychephylax> bah
23:39:16 <Psychephylax> bah bah bah!
23:39:20 <Psychephylax> Stupid computers
23:39:27 <Psychephylax> oh, hi talli and roberto
23:39:57 <davb> Talli: do you know if anything changed in OpenACS that affected ETP?
23:40:03 <Psychephylax> hey dave
23:40:10 <davb> hi Psychephylax
23:40:15 <Psychephylax> :-D
23:40:21 <davb> Psychephylax: you should get a slide rule.
23:40:27 <Psychephylax> I should
23:40:30 <rbm> talli: What piece? docs.openacs.org?
23:40:31 <Psychephylax> And lots of board games
23:40:41 <davb> yes.
23:40:52 <davb> We got the Lord of the Rings board game. It looks pretty cool.
23:41:02 <Psychephylax> Really/
23:41:06 <Psychephylax> cooooool
23:41:08 <Psychephylax> :-D
23:41:11 <talli> yes, docs.openacs.org
23:42:04 <rbm> talli: What do you plan to have there?
23:42:05 <Psychephylax> Does anyone know how XFree86 4.1 work?
23:42:13 <Psychephylax> what the hell is this xdm crap
23:42:21 <rbm> Psychephylax: I have an idea. I'm not familiar with the internals.
23:42:27 <rbm> xdm is a login manager
23:42:27 <Psychephylax> heh
23:42:36 <Psychephylax> I just want to start X damn it
23:42:50 <rbm> Is this on FreeBSD?
23:42:52 <Psychephylax> yes
23:43:01 <Psychephylax> I compiled the new X
23:43:04 <rbm> You're probably on runlevel 5 (graphical login)
23:43:04 <talli> rbm: dunno. i need to see your doc roadmap
23:43:17 <Psychephylax> just waiting for xfce to compile
23:43:57 <Psychephylax> Roberto, I don't think I am on 5
23:43:59 <Psychephylax> I think it's 3
23:44:06 <rbm> I'm tempted to scrape the "aD DocBook Primer" almost entirely. The LDP Author Guide is much better.
23:44:19 <rbm> Psychephylax: Then kill the xdm process.
23:44:48 <Psychephylax> none are running
23:45:01 <talli> rbm: i think it's entirely fine to drop the aD stuff. if the LDP author guide is indeed better
23:45:13 <rbm> talli: The "roadmap" hes been written, scraped, re-written, scraped, and finally split over the acs-core-docs
23:45:23 <Psychephylax> :-/
23:46:43 <talli> rbm: that's fine, things go through phases. but perhaps it's a good idea to, like OACS4 in general, clean stuff up and release something now.
23:46:57 <talli> then for the next release do an upgrade after actually seeing how it is used
23:48:12 <rbm> talli: Almost done with that "status" page
23:48:50 <talli> cool
23:48:59 <talli> i think that will be much appreciated by the community
23:49:06 <Psychephylax> must find out how to start x
23:49:18 <talli> X is a terrible horror
23:49:57 <Psychephylax> heh
23:50:02 <Psychephylax> 3.6 wasn't bad
23:50:09 <Psychephylax> I just want it to start 
23:50:35 <rbm> Why is X an horror? XFree4 is much much much easier to configure that 3.x
23:50:40 <rbm> s/an/a/
23:51:22 <talli> i don't know. i've tried to get Xfree4.4 running on my laptop with at least 4 differnet OSes
23:51:23 <rbm> You just need to know 3 things to get X 4 to work: The driver, The Horiz. Refresh Rate, The Vertical Refresh Rate
23:51:30 <Psychephylax> yeah I have those
23:51:33 <rbm> 4.4?
23:51:40 <rbm> I think the latest version is 4.1
23:51:50 <talli> wait, you're right
23:51:52 <talli> 4.1
23:52:16 <rbm> talli: phewww! You got me scared there :-)
23:52:40 <rbm> talli: What's the video card on the laptop?
23:53:02 <rbm> To get the monitor rates, I usually just head to http://www.monitorworld.com/
23:55:02 <talli> hmm... i didn't know that
23:55:31 <rbm> know what?
23:55:33 <talli> the prob with X was that it wouldn't totally install on my computer either
23:55:44 <rbm> It wouldn't install?
23:55:50 <talli> i tried with debian, netbsd and freebsd
23:56:07 <talli> i couldn't even run Xf86setup on them
23:56:29 <talli> or whatever the proper config command is for 4.1
23:56:31 <rbm> weird
23:56:47 <talli> i think that it's the peculiarities of my laptop.
23:56:53 <Psychephylax> bah
23:56:55 <talli> dell. i hate dell, at least now i do
23:57:07 <Psychephylax> I think it doesn't know how to do stuff with my card
23:57:41 <talli> i'm going to try and swindle a G4 out of someone to run OSX
23:58:11 <rbm> talli: Do you know what's the video card you have in the laptop?
23:58:30 <talli> ATI 128 Rage Mobility
23:58:58 <jim> any good deals on 80g drives? I'm looking to get the aduni stuff
23:59:55 <rbm> talli: and the monitor?