00:02:18 <davb> anyone run qmail?
00:10:58 <jim> I tried to get acs webmail going
00:11:10 <jim> which for some reason needed qmail
00:11:20 <jim> got parts of it working
00:11:30 <davb> It is the MTA of choice at aD last time I checked.
00:11:50 <jim> because they made a package that requires you use it :)
00:12:14 <jim> it's not bad
00:12:27 <jim> it's got what some would consider anevil license
00:12:31 <davb> heh
00:12:48 <davb> yeah, but all of djb's stuff works really well
00:13:17 <jim> you can distribute source, but not modified source or modified bins... you can distribute a patch
00:13:29 <davb> ie: djbdns, daemontools, uscpi-tcp etc...
00:13:29 <jim> I guess that's the same as pine
00:13:41 <davb> yes, some people don't like the liscense.
00:14:07 <davb> I suspect I should learn an easier MTA one of these days. I have less then a half dozen email accounts and two domains. not a big deal.
00:14:29 <davb> Hotmail, Yahoo, that kind of place use qmail because its super fast.
00:14:47 <jim> I think the main reason for them using qmail is its ability to rewrite addresses
00:15:02 <davb> could be. I am not sure what that means :)
00:15:30 <davb> I just heard it was more secure than sendmail :)
00:15:49 <jim> it's used in qmail to get mail into acs webmail
00:16:01 <davb> aha
00:16:11 <jim> the rewriting stuff that is
00:16:26 <davb> That I think,, will eventually be totally rewritten.
00:16:37 <jim> I had it almost working...
00:16:37 <davb> probably more than once.
00:17:25 <jim> * jim pretty much finished the first ps of SICP as taught by aduni last term
00:17:54 <jim> got to the unix commands and said "come on :) I know unix :)"
00:18:02 <hazmat> i'd like to hear someone compare qmail and postfix on features.... 
00:18:08 <hazmat> someday
00:18:19 <jim> they're both pretty small
00:19:15 <davb> I think for a normal person there is no difference, except postfix seems a million times easier to configure :)
00:20:15 <hazmat> they both claim to be (and as far i can tell are) fast and secure. and yes, postfix is much easier to configure :)
00:21:03 <jim> the aD instructions for the webmail thing are pretty straightforward to follosw
00:21:50 <jim> their docs were always their strength
00:22:10 <davb> or weakness, there was no in between
00:22:12 <davb> :)
00:22:52 <jim> * jim -hated- writing the design spec
00:23:26 <jim> for his room reservation systme
00:23:29 <davb> because the design was changed by the time you wrote it ? :)
00:23:33 <davb> oh :)
00:23:57 <jim> sorry, changed the subject without telling you:)
00:24:44 <davb> I think I will start converting my little site over to OpenACS 4 tonight.
00:24:46 <davb> brb
00:24:48 <davb> davb has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.5 [Mozilla rv:0.9.7/20011221]")
00:25:10 <jim> how is openacs 4 coming?
00:25:36 <jim> the kernel and package system pretty stable?
00:25:41 <hazmat> yes
00:26:03 <jim> also, did someone get postgres to add "create or replace"?
00:27:18 <til> til (~tils@62.116.25.202) has joined #openacs
00:27:44 <hazmat> not sure...
00:28:14 <hazmat> * hazmat starts compiling pg7.2b4
00:28:58 <jim> is it done yet? :)
00:29:01 <davb> davb (~dave@alb-24-58-160-135.nycap.rr.com) has joined #OpenACS
00:29:27 <jim> davb, did someone get postgres to add "create or replace"?
00:29:45 <davb> I think its in 7.2 , or rather will be.
00:30:07 <jim> that would make porting quite a bit easier, yes?
00:30:18 <davb> yes. 
00:30:19 <hazmat> davb, does it keep the oid the same?
00:30:20 <anlater> jim: you have to use drop and after: create
00:30:39 <davb> hazmat: AFAIK. That is what I think donb said before.
00:31:38 <hazmat> * hazmat starts a jig, while he waits for the compile
00:31:54 <jim> anlater: "create or replace" has implications for data model development and backup/restore
00:33:15 <anlater> yes
00:33:39 <anlater> why for backup/restore?
00:34:03 <jim> if the object ID stays the same when you replace something, be it a function, package or something else, you don't need to completely backup the data before you do it and completely restore after :)
00:35:15 <davb> * davb hopes he was right after causing all this excitment :)
00:39:42 <hazmat> hmm.. thats cool, aolserver tries to reconnect automatically between between db restarts.
00:41:44 <davb> anyone ever run cvspserver with tcpserver?
00:44:12 <hazmat> create or replace works, although i haven't checked the oids yet.
00:45:24 <davb> cool.
00:46:55 <hazmat> actually i'm not sure what the function oid is in pg_proc? any idea?
00:47:37 <miguel> ok guys go to bed
00:47:38 <miguel> bye
00:47:51 <davb> bye miguel
00:48:05 <miguel> roberto and dave: thansk for your advices
00:48:50 <davb> np
00:48:53 <miguel> miguel has quit (" IRcap 6.999   http://www.ircap.com !!")
00:49:51 <davb> hazmat: I don;t see that there is a column for that in pg_proc
00:51:16 <hazmat> hmm.. well to my untrained eyes, the function  appears to be identical after a create or replace, although i still feel like i'm not seeing  its oid.
00:51:37 <hazmat> davb, i wonder what attribute is being indexed under pg_proc_oid_index ?
00:51:57 <davb> I am not sure. the docs don't mention a oid for the function.
00:52:34 <davb> I think the oids are special and not in those tables.
00:54:23 <hazmat> well enough playtime with pg, back to the movies.
00:55:05 <davb> ok :)
01:04:25 <jim> there's another way to test that, of course :)
01:07:44 <djg> djg has left #openacs
01:07:56 <davb> how do I specify the location of a repository to CVS?
01:11:52 <davb> aha -d before the command.
01:11:56 <til> do you mean this: cvs -d /path/to/location checkout bla ?
01:12:08 <til> aargh, too late :-)
01:18:06 <davb> thanks!
01:34:50 <davb> davb has quit ("I'm too lame to make a quit message")
01:44:15 <davb> davb (~dave@alb-24-58-160-135.nycap.rr.com) has joined #OpenACS
01:46:47 <davb> search is not in the openacs-4 CVS package?
01:46:55 <davb> its breaking my bootstrapping.
01:58:18 <davb> argh
02:05:48 <til> til has left #openacs
02:06:53 <til> til (~tils@62.116.25.202) has joined #openacs
02:30:51 <davb> apparently it was me.
02:30:57 <davb> aha. I did an update without -d
02:41:03 <rbm> I always do cvs update -PAd
02:41:23 <davb> I think I will from now on :)
02:41:28 <rbm> Alien Ant Farm's version of Smooth Criminal is pretty cool
02:41:42 <rbm> <-- Michael Jackson fan
02:42:55 <davb> also I was using the wrong database :)
02:43:10 <davb> that is cool, I am not so much a Michael Jackson fan.
02:43:55 <davb> I am going to start porting my personal site to OpenACS 4
02:44:00 <rbm> me too
02:44:22 <davb> cool.
02:44:43 <davb> I am finally going to use CVS to maintain my site's code :)
02:44:50 <rbm> heh. Nice shot.
02:45:10 <davb> I used to just fool around with the code on the live site :)
02:45:38 <davb> actually I really like the Alien Ant Farm one. I bear no grudge to your musical tastes :)
02:47:21 <rbm> IT would be okay if you did :)
02:47:36 <rbm> After all, music taste is something very personal.
02:47:50 <rbm> Just like at the millions of Country music fans :)
02:47:53 <davb> weird, my mail is being misrouted to my other address. only sometimes though. between virtual hosted mailboxes. that is weird.
02:47:58 <davb> heh
02:48:01 <davb> some of that is good.
02:48:17 <rbm> brb
05:00:53 <til> til has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
07:29:58 <anlater> anlater has quit ("Client Exiting")
07:41:57 <hazmat> hazmat has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
07:42:39 <hazmat> hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #openacs
14:07:40 <davb_> davb_ (~dave@208.136.23.203) has joined #openacs
14:07:53 <davb_> oops, forgot to log off at home :)
16:10:45 <rbm> morning all
16:12:16 <davb_> Hi rbm
16:14:55 <rbm> * rbm reads his morning spam
17:29:33 <Psychephylax> Roll call?
17:36:01 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax pokes dave
17:37:55 <davb_> !
17:39:09 <Psychephylax> §
17:39:17 <Psychephylax> It's my python about to bite you!
18:06:39 <lilo> Hi all.  Two channels, #!/bin/sh and #secrets, have recently become infested with Windows clonebots.  We've had to jupe (temporarily shut down) those channels off and on, and automatically kline clients as they joined.  Please don't try to join either channel, and if you see someone telling another user to join one of the channels, please let them know not to do it (and send us the /whois info for the person sending them there).  Thanks!
19:06:35 <rbm> * rbm compiles a new kernel in preparation to convert his file systems to ext3
19:07:43 <davb_> sounds exciting. it is ready for prime time then?
19:08:06 <Psychephylax> heh
19:08:09 <Psychephylax> Moo!
19:08:54 <rbm> ext3 has been ready for some time
19:09:14 <davb_> cool. I should keep better track :)
19:09:31 <rbm> I'm using it for convenience. I want to try XFS though. Everybody I talk to says it rocks.
19:09:45 <davb_> I have decied to rebuild the design of my site. The old stuff is scattered through a bunch of tcl procs.
19:10:12 <davb_> Plus then I can go XHTML CSS etc...
19:14:06 <Psychephylax> ?
19:14:09 <Psychephylax> syntax error in expression "$cmts_ip != vxr.eng.cv.net"
19:14:13 <Psychephylax> what the hell is wrong with that
19:14:42 <davb_> where is the rest of it?
19:15:04 <Psychephylax> that's the error
19:15:22 <Psychephylax> if {$cmts_ip != vxr.eng.cv.net} {
19:15:28 <Psychephylax> blah
19:15:29 <Psychephylax> }
19:16:01 <rbm> have you tried putting the latter string into ' ' ?
19:16:26 <rbm> brb. rebooting.
19:16:29 <rbm> (into new kernel)
19:16:33 <davb_> "" you mean
19:16:39 <rbm> "" or ''
19:16:51 <Psychephylax> well, one thing is that it's 167.206.9.33
19:16:53 <rbm> "" will try to evaluate the string. '' will save the trouble.
19:16:56 <davb_> aha
19:18:26 <Psychephylax> You sure equality is <> not !=
19:18:32 <Psychephylax> I mean, the other way around
19:20:19 <davb_> its !=
19:21:19 <Psychephylax> if {$cmts_ip != '167.206.9.33'} {
19:21:22 <Psychephylax> still not worky
19:22:16 <davb_> whats $cmts_ip equal?
19:22:22 <Psychephylax> should be that number
19:22:38 <davb_> orf course, but what is it really? 
19:22:51 <davb_> :)
19:23:00 <Psychephylax> hold onn
19:27:30 <Psychephylax> apparently nothing yet
19:28:48 <rbm> * rbm is fully ext3-enabled now
19:33:36 <davb_> argh the openacs error log QD messages are killing emacs :)
19:36:16 <Psychephylax> dave
19:36:20 <Psychephylax> it doesn't like that comparison
19:36:33 <Psychephylax> and I can't print it because it's inside a catch
19:37:12 <davb_> weird
19:38:27 <Psychephylax> definetly does not like that IP
19:38:31 <Psychephylax> i mean check
19:38:42 <davb_> its weird.
19:40:07 <Psychephylax> Do I have to do if {[eval blah != booh]}
19:40:08 <Psychephylax> ?
19:40:47 <davb_> you should not have to.
19:41:28 <Psychephylax> Aha
19:41:31 <Psychephylax> It wanted ""
19:45:08 <davb_> ok.
19:45:35 <davb_> I think it thought 167. etc was a proc name. that is a valid name in Tcl.
19:45:47 <Psychephylax> ah
20:20:00 <rbm> davb: I'll take the '' "" thing back. That's PHP *puke*
20:24:46 <davb_> http://www.csupomona.edu/~jelerma/springfield/map/index.html
20:24:46 <chump> A: http://www.csupomona.edu/~jelerma/springfield/map/index.html from davb_
20:25:01 <davb_> A:|Incredibly detailed map of Springfield (of the Simpson's)
20:25:01 <chump> titled item A
20:32:07 <anlater> anlater (~antonio@212.34.222.62) has joined #OpenACS
20:46:36 <talli> talli (~talli@ip64-75-147-181.dial.maui.net) has joined #openacs
20:47:35 <davb_> hi talli
20:47:56 <talli> hey davb
20:55:21 <talli> talli has left #openacs
21:32:57 <Psychephylax> dave?
21:33:43 <davb_> yes?
21:33:49 <Psychephylax> never mind
21:33:52 <Psychephylax> I figured it out :)
21:33:56 <Psychephylax> I think...
21:35:32 <davb_> ok
21:35:38 <Psychephylax> I shall now find out
21:36:16 <Psychephylax> Opera is sexy
21:36:56 <davb_> heh
21:37:05 <davb_> Its quirky. I prefer Mozilla.
21:39:37 <Psychephylax> Define quirky
21:40:46 <davb_> its interface does not conform to my version of reality :)
21:41:08 <davb_> If a small window pops up it minimizes all the windows. ick :(
21:41:39 <davb_> Do you know if tivo uses open source inside it?
21:42:28 <Psychephylax> No I did not
21:42:44 <davb_> I don't either I am trying to find out :)
21:43:46 <davb_> yes it does. Someone said the Tivo was a really important thing in 2001, but open source was a flop. There would be no tivo without Linux :)
21:44:04 <davb_> Also OS X :)
21:45:24 <Psychephylax> heh
21:45:32 <Psychephylax> How silly you are Dave
21:45:41 <Psychephylax> there would be no OS X if there was no BSD
21:45:47 <Psychephylax> BSD != Linux
21:46:57 <davb_> right you are :) I was referring to the open sourcedness of it 
21:47:20 <Psychephylax> heh
21:47:22 <Psychephylax> suuuure
21:47:29 <Psychephylax> You were just trying to say Linux is better than BSD
21:47:42 <davb_> I am totally not qualified for that :)
21:48:03 <davb_> Now I have to email this guy to tell him why he's wrong.
21:48:35 <Psychephylax> What do you mean
21:48:37 <davb_> Also I noticed the internet is still functioning, mostly using open source software is it not?
21:48:45 <davb_> He said open source was a big flop in 2001
21:48:54 <davb_> but Tivo was really cool.
21:49:16 <hazmat> .com's were a big flop in 2001
21:49:30 <davb_> yes, but not beacuse they used apache for their web servers :)
21:50:22 <hazmat> definitely, the ones who used open source software had more money for perks like parties and fooz ball tables ;)
21:50:30 <davb_> heh
21:51:55 <davb_> I certainly got a good education in networking, email, web servers, DNS etc... all for free because of open source.
21:52:09 <davb_> oh that was good, I'll have to remember it for the email :)
21:52:32 <davb_> bbl - time for me to head home
21:52:34 <Psychephylax> heh
21:52:37 <davb_> davb_ has quit ()
21:52:55 <Psychephylax> That's what probably killed all the .com startups
21:53:00 <Psychephylax> too much open source
21:53:06 <Psychephylax> too much extra money
21:53:09 <hazmat> lol
21:53:10 <Psychephylax> too many foos tables
21:53:18 <Psychephylax> foosball tables
21:53:26 <Psychephylax> They played too much
21:53:41 <Psychephylax> I bet ya the foosball manufacturers are laughing their butts off
21:53:52 <hazmat> i think it had more to do with too many pipe dreams.
21:55:01 <Psychephylax> bah
21:55:06 <Psychephylax> Bah I say! BAAAH!
21:55:15 <hazmat> um... ok.
21:56:58 <Psychephylax> :p
21:57:30 <Psychephylax> this sucks
21:57:35 <Psychephylax> I still don't know if I graduated or not
22:11:40 <beattiek2> beattiek2 (beattiek@a0hj120oy38yk.bc.hsia.telus.net) has joined #openacs
22:12:21 <beattiek2> hey guys, have you read the new name thread?
22:18:31 <hazmat> interesting
22:18:48 <hazmat> openacs should start hosting the panda book.
22:19:00 <hazmat> before it disappears.
22:22:15 <rbm> indeed
22:29:50 <hazmat> my 2 cents on the name, keep it, it is brand recogonition and synonymous (sp:) with a community centric approach that defines the toolkit. 
22:49:46 <anlater> anlater has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
22:52:06 <beattiek2> hazmat: OACS should host it, but i'm not sure we have the right.
22:54:10 <hazmat> why not, its copyrighted by philp not aD, and i dare speculate he be favorable to us doing it.
23:12:20 <jim> he might be favorable to it... otoh, he might be more favorable to hosting stuff wrt newer, post-acs stuff he's doing
23:13:16 <jim> new name? of what?
23:13:24 <hazmat> i thought he was just doing some education work now... if its related to the acs classic (3-4) why not.
23:13:31 <hazmat> new name of openacs.
23:14:17 <jim> does it need a new name?
23:14:26 <jim> has ad said somethnig?
23:16:20 <hazmat> no, there is some dicussion that changing the name will help clear up confusion since the openacs and aD are going in different directions on different platforms.
23:16:30 <hazmat> basically people want to cut references to aD.
23:19:08 <hazmat> http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0003Ye&topic_id=11&topic=OpenACS
23:19:09 <chump> B: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0003Ye&topic_id=11&topic=OpenACS from hazmat
23:19:17 <hazmat> beattiek: the great name game
23:19:29 <hazmat> ahh! 
23:19:33 <rbm> There's also a legal concern here
23:21:57 <hazmat> you mean the name infringement? i doubt that it would hold much water in court. esp. since it wasn't protested before.
23:22:15 <hazmat> as for the code, my understanding is that aD still holds the copyright.
23:22:50 <hazmat> its all fun and games till somebody talks to a lawyer.
23:24:15 <hazmat>  We have permitted the OpenACS project to use our product name, and will continue to do so, unless the OpenACS project bases future versions of its software on the ACS 4.6+ architecture.
23:24:20 <hazmat> from the adpl faq
23:24:52 <hazmat> considering the amount of love java gets around the openacs community that chances of that are about equal to hell freezing over.
23:27:43 <rbm> If anyone needs to do something with Java, they can use nsjavablend to instantiate Java objects (or Tcl stuff from Java).
23:31:14 <jim> would it make sense to use stored java procs?
23:34:43 <rbm> dunno
23:40:55 <hazmat> no, cause its not portable.
23:46:54 <jim> how would it not be portable? or, better question: can it be done in pg?
23:50:38 <hazmat> no, and hence the lack of portability. even if they were they would most likely be rely on rdbms support which is sure to be varying without a standard.