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06:54:31 <Psychephylax> w
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13:54:04 <davb> Hello
14:32:17 <davb> http://www.skipping.net
14:32:17 <chump> A: http://www.skipping.net from davb
14:32:22 <davb> A:|Skipping Dot Net
14:32:22 <chump> titled item A
14:32:34 <davb> A:"Building Next-Generation Web Services and Apps Without Paying The Microsoft Tax"
14:32:34 <chump> commented item A
15:33:59 <markd2> markd2 (~markd2@r-41.116.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
15:34:47 <jim> re markd2
15:34:54 <markd2> greets
15:36:19 <davb> Hi
15:36:46 <jim> are most of you folks on the east coast us?
15:38:20 <markd2> I am
15:38:33 <davb> me too, also Psychephylax
15:39:39 <jim> hmm... I had what I thought was a good idea; I thought maybe openacs or someone using it might hold bootcamps
15:40:36 <jim> I said so here, and every place suggested for holding them was somewhere like 3000 mi away from me...
15:41:38 <markd2> * markd2 prefers acs bootcamps in Botswana
15:42:30 <davb> That woudl be nice.
15:42:35 <jim> wouldn't be able to make those either :P
15:42:38 <davb> I prefer Hawaii myself.
15:43:08 <davb> I was thinking of a virtual bootcamp. 
15:43:32 <davb> Each participant would need their own system...
15:43:42 <markd2> that'd didn't work out well with aD's bootcamps
15:43:50 <jim> who would be available to be buddies?
15:44:03 <markd2> the "I'm gonna go away because I'm frustrated" factor was high
15:44:10 <markd2> oacs may have a better shot
15:44:12 <davb> We would have to get volunteers. Basically anyone who comes here is a buddy.
15:44:15 <markd2> maybe with bboard monitors or something
15:44:21 <davb> That too.
15:44:29 <markd2> or have folks hang out on IRC
15:44:42 <jim> I'm -hardly- qualified to be a buddy
15:44:46 <jim> but, 
15:44:49 <markd2> that actually might rule(tM)
15:44:57 <jim> I'm working on a java whiteboard
15:46:13 <markd2> cool
15:46:29 <jim> it's coming along... it doesn't save anything, and 2 out of 5 types of shapes don't serialize... but I'll figure that out
15:47:27 <jim> to give you an idea, I'm still on-and-off workin on ps2
15:49:13 <jim> how's MIT doing on their tuition-free thing? maybe this could be expanded to include SICP
15:49:34 <davb> The book is free and you can get lectures from aduni.org
15:49:38 <davb> :)
15:49:57 <jim> videos?
15:50:13 <jim> ahh, looking
15:51:55 <davb> yes. the used to have excellent MIT lectures but they aren't available right now.
15:53:35 <jim> sheeit. for 6.916?
16:00:54 <jim> or 6.001?
16:10:31 <miguel> miguel (root@cable192a061.usuarios.retecal.es) has joined #openacs
16:11:47 <davb> 6.916 I think 
16:11:58 <davb> Hi miguel
16:12:49 <miguel> hi how are you doing?
16:13:11 <miguel> what do you get if you do a who on my nickname? i am checking a linux irc client
16:15:55 <miguel> dave?
16:16:06 <rbm> rbm (rmello@fslc.ser.usu.edu) has joined #openacs
16:16:17 <rbm> MOO!
16:17:18 <davb> Holy RBM!
16:17:31 <davb> I am fine thanks.
16:17:34 <rbm> hey davb
16:17:48 <rbm> hehe. I was actually going to ask "how are you?"
16:17:58 <davb> :)
16:18:05 <rbm> Happy Hollidays everybody
16:18:17 <miguel_> miguel_ (root@cable192a061.usuarios.retecal.es) has joined #openacs
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16:18:46 <miguel> miguel has quit (Remote closed the connection)
16:20:41 <rbm> davb: Any chance I'll get those CDs? 
16:21:07 <davb> Yes! I am all ready to send them out.  Sorry about the delay. Life happens.
16:23:27 <rbm> It's no problem. I appreciate you doing this.
16:23:44 <rbm> davb: That's awesome!
16:24:09 <davb> No problem at all. I hopefully can get a nice 80Gig drive to send to them and get the whole set.
16:24:36 <davb> I recall on the bboard someone asking if they had the original videos, but I don't know if anyone followed up.
16:24:42 <davb> A DVD would be real nice.
16:25:50 <rbm> indeed. It would be awesome
16:26:40 <markd2> wow.  rbm in the haus
16:27:27 <rbm> markd2!
16:27:35 <rbm> markd2: The prodigal son always returns :)
16:28:56 <rbm> Linux brasileiro.net 2.4.17 #1 Sat Dec 22 11:31:24 MST 2001 i586 unknown
16:29:03 <rbm> ph33r my n3w k3rn3l
16:29:46 <rbm> I compiled it with the preemptible kernel patch. Seems fairly nice.
16:30:36 <rbm> Can anyone get the ip of postgresql.org for me please?
16:30:48 <rbm> It seems like the USU DNS is b0rken
16:33:17 <markd2> neither postgresql.org or www.postgresql.org resolve for me
16:33:39 <davb> works ok for me...please hold
16:33:45 <rbm> Weird. They don't resolve to me either.
16:33:48 <markd2> weird
16:34:16 <davb> 64.39.15.238
16:34:19 <markd2> am I spelling it right?
16:34:20 <markd2> www.postgresql.org 
16:34:20 <rbm> davb: tks
16:34:25 <davb> thats it.
16:34:26 <rbm> markd2: Yes.
16:34:28 <markd2> doing nslookup against ns1.arsdigita.com doesn't work
16:34:47 <miguel> miguel (root@cable192a061.usuarios.retecal.es) has joined #openacs
16:35:14 <rbm> davb: is that www.postgresql.org ?
16:36:08 <davb> says it is :)
16:36:34 <davb> www.postgresql.org.     21h37m44s IN A  64.39.15.238
16:36:34 <miguel> hi guys
16:36:37 <davb> wb
16:37:04 <miguel> would you mind to check whether the virtual protection on my ip is working?
16:40:06 <davb> ok.
16:43:58 <davb> how should I test it?
16:44:13 <miguel> just try to get my info from the whois command
16:44:29 <miguel> and see if you got my real ip or just a virtual ip
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16:47:24 <miguel> dave: have you figured out how to do it?
16:47:41 <davb> I just see the host name. It doesn't show an IP address to me in mIRC
16:49:07 <miguel> what do you get exactly?
16:49:54 <rbm> you really really really really shouldn't be IRC'ing as root
16:50:31 <miguel> ok i am going to reboot doesnt know whats going on
16:50:36 <miguel> miguel has left #openacs
16:51:11 <rbm> reboot?
16:54:14 <miguel> miguel (miguel@cable192a061.usuarios.retecal.es) has joined #openacs
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16:55:25 <rbm> anyone worked with docbook in Red Hat and derivatives here?
16:55:36 <miguel> miguel (miguel@cable192a061.usuarios.retecal.es) has joined #openacs
16:55:44 <davb> sorry, no.
16:55:48 <miguel> hi again
16:55:55 <miguel> now changed to a different user
16:56:17 <miguel> but i think you still got my ip ? dont you?
16:56:39 <davb> Its the same as before.
16:56:52 <rbm> miguel: Did you really reboot?
16:57:04 <miguel> yes i did
16:57:07 <rbm> why?
16:57:13 <miguel> i mean
16:57:23 <miguel> i logged out
16:57:32 <rbm> Oh. That's significantly different :)
16:57:34 <miguel> and log in with a normal user
16:57:44 <rbm> Don't ever do as root what you can do as a regular user.
16:57:46 <miguel> anyway i have RH 6.2 gnome
16:57:51 <miguel> i know
16:57:54 <miguel> i just forgot 
16:57:57 <miguel> ;)
16:58:02 <rbm> RH 6.2?!?!?!?
16:58:05 <miguel> yes
16:58:09 <rbm> That's very old. Have you updated that thing?
16:58:19 <rbm> (the packages I mean)
16:58:30 <miguel> i have the XIRC client but i have set it up for being invisible
16:58:40 <miguel> but there is no virtual protection
16:58:52 <miguel> i have to update it
16:59:05 <miguel> anyway 7.0 was very crappy
16:59:09 <miguel> 7.1 still buggy
16:59:14 <miguel> and 7.2 seems to be more stable
16:59:20 <rbm> * rbm hands miguel Debian
16:59:40 <miguel> i know....but i started with RH and transition takes time
16:59:41 <miguel> ;)
16:59:45 <rbm> Bah.
16:59:57 <rbm> It takes much more time to deal with the crap RH puts out
17:00:05 <miguel> hehehe
17:00:25 <miguel> anyway you know how to have virtual ip in XIRC client?
17:02:49 <miguel> roberto: boa passagem do ano novo i dont know very much portuguese
17:03:50 <rbm> miguel: :-)
17:04:10 <rbm> miguel: That's about right. You should have used "de" instead of "do" but everything else is right.
17:04:29 <rbm> Tengas un bueno nuevo ano
17:04:37 <rbm> and Feliz Navidad
17:04:42 <miguel> thanks 
17:04:49 <miguel> gracias
17:04:51 <miguel> tu tambien
17:05:06 <rbm> * rbm looks for Pascal to write in Dutch
17:06:47 <davb> Mozilla 0.9.7 is available.
17:07:07 <rbm> davb: That's old news :)
17:09:07 <davb> I know, I have been off the computer all weekend :)
17:09:18 <miguel> switch over back to the channel
17:09:47 <miguel> well i just want to explain you a little bit my situation
17:09:58 <miguel> and my groups situation
17:10:16 <miguel> I am an intern in a small research institute in the university of leon
17:11:12 <rbm> okay
17:11:23 <miguel> and my director suggested me to do my final project to join a small group of people
17:11:23 <miguel> who is trying to set up a company using ACS
17:12:02 <miguel> actually their management seems to be not very good, they have been trying to get a bunch of people who is interested in working for nothing to set up such company
17:12:12 <miguel> that has been for two years already
17:13:03 <rbm> Trying to get employees to work for free is not a very good business model
17:13:23 <miguel> but nobody is adhering to that project
17:13:23 <miguel> i agree with you
17:13:47 <miguel> well they want to pay two people (i would be one of them) through a university grant
17:14:03 <miguel> to teach more people how to use ACS
17:14:54 <miguel> but the university grants havent arrived yet ;)
17:14:54 <miguel> there are few students doing their final project with ACS+Oracle
17:15:20 <miguel> me as i knew PostgreSQL before i said i would prefer not to move into Oracle, because it would be more work for me
17:15:29 <miguel> so they said ok, lets try openacs and postgresql
17:15:45 <miguel> when i have started i have noticed that there was not very much docs about how
17:15:50 <miguel> to set up such system
17:15:55 <miguel> or the psets
17:16:02 <miguel> using postgresql
17:16:05 <rbm> True
17:16:25 <miguel> well so far after being working 3-4 weeks i have set up the system
17:16:31 <miguel> with olas help
17:16:32 <rbm> But there are docs showing how to setup OpenACS with both Oracle PostgreSQL
17:17:02 <miguel> yes but there is really missing a doc explaining step-by-step how to set up OACS
17:17:14 <miguel> i successfully installed from sources aolserver
17:17:16 <miguel> and postgresql
17:17:18 <miguel> 7.1.3
17:17:31 <miguel> but there were things that i didnt know about OACS
17:17:37 <rbm> It's not missing. It's there. But we need to improve it.
17:17:40 <miguel> besides i had experience with Apache
17:17:53 <rbm> Why did you install PG from sources?
17:17:55 <miguel> but not with Aolserver and was difficult to debug log error
17:18:31 <miguel> well, i tried first to install with the rpms but didnt work
17:18:31 <miguel> for RH 7.2 neither RH 6.2
17:18:31 <rbm> What did you do in Apache? I use the error log in apache all the time, especially when working with PHP *puke*
17:18:39 <rbm> miguel: Get Debian.
17:18:51 <miguel> yes, but i didnt know well all the commands of the nsd daemon
17:18:56 <miguel> ola helped me about it
17:19:05 <miguel> it was just a few two things that i missed out
17:19:09 <miguel> not very importatn
17:19:16 <rbm> We need to document better that we have AOLserver RPMs available
17:19:33 <rbm> You could have used them.
17:19:35 <miguel> the rpms for aolserver+pg and OACS dont work
17:19:51 <miguel> at least i downloaded them from a web site
17:19:58 <miguel> that says that they should work
17:20:06 <miguel> but they didnt
17:20:10 <miguel> neither aolserver
17:20:13 <miguel> nor pg
17:20:13 <rbm> "a web site"?
17:20:26 <miguel> well, web page
17:20:31 <miguel> sorry for my english
17:20:36 <miguel> i cant remember the url
17:20:39 <rbm> No, I meant to ask which website
17:20:39 <miguel> i could check it out
17:20:52 <rbm> The aolserver rpms are available from openacs.org
17:20:59 <rbm> OpenACS 4 doesn't have RPMs yet.p
17:21:56 <rbm> miguel: If you couldn't install the PostgreSQL RPMs your distribution is probably broken.
17:22:09 <rbm> They should install fine.
17:22:18 <miguel> no, i tried with oacs 3.2.5
17:22:58 <rbm> I have been using Debian for long enough to almost forget the hell Red Hat users go through just to install a simple package.
17:22:59 <rbm> miguel: Oh, I see.
17:23:04 <rbm> So this is all for 3.2.5?
17:23:10 <miguel> yes
17:23:13 <rbm> I thought you were referring to OACS 4
17:23:16 <miguel> no no
17:23:28 <miguel> we didnt want to move to OACS 4 because it is still not stable
17:23:36 <rbm> OACS 4 is pretty stable
17:23:42 <rbm> OACS 3.x is a dead end
17:23:56 <miguel> well, my coordinator doesnt know a thing about this then
17:24:04 <miguel> he told me so
17:24:18 <miguel> so which is the alpha version of OACS?
17:24:31 <rbm> We will probably only do one more maintenance release of 3.x and then stop developing it.
17:24:43 <rbm> miguel: OACS 4 is effectively in Beta.
17:24:45 <miguel> ok
17:25:01 <miguel> so thats what he meant
17:25:12 <rbm> OACS 4 is officially in "alpha" but it really is beta quality software.
17:25:18 <miguel> ok
17:25:37 <rbm> The API is frozen and is stable. The packages work, and Don recently did some significant performance improvements in the PostgreSQL version.
17:25:52 <miguel> well my coordinator thought that it would be better to wait until you guys have released a stable"
17:25:56 <miguel> version
17:26:14 <rbm> It would be _a lot_ of work to move a project from 3.x to 4.x
17:26:18 <miguel> thats why i am using oacs 3
17:26:21 <rbm> It's much better to start with 4.x
17:26:29 <miguel> jesus christ
17:26:32 <miguel> i am going to kill
17:26:34 <miguel> my coordinator
17:26:41 <rbm> We had to do just that recently at work, and it's not fun.
17:26:53 <miguel> good to have your opinion
17:27:34 <miguel> actually i am going to tell you about which kind of bigmouth is the guy who is coordinating the "technical" part of that future company
17:27:53 <miguel> he told me because i am "experienced" using linux 
17:28:13 <miguel> that with rpms that would only took me one evening to have the whole system working
17:28:24 <miguel> but i got problems as i have told you
17:29:20 <miguel> then he told me that in one week i could have the pset 1, considering the differences between PG and Oracle and a few things you have to set up in OACS 3.x, it took me 8 working days
17:29:44 <miguel> that thought that was not very good
17:29:51 <miguel> providing i am normal it guy
17:29:56 <rbm> It should have been very simple to setup PostgreSQL and AOLserver with RPMs
17:30:18 <miguel> not a MIT guy
17:30:39 <rbm> This is what you'd do with Debian: apt-get install postgresql aolserver
17:30:39 <miguel> roberto dont know what happened but they didnt work
17:30:39 <rbm> miguel: I believe you.
17:30:46 <miguel> well now the system works, i will try that after my finals in february
17:31:35 <miguel> considering that i had to look for all the docs in internet, and finally i found this lovely channel where ola helped me
17:32:02 <miguel> and i had to do everything alone, without any help, you can imagine which kind of coordination he is doing
17:33:42 <miguel> then after i got the system working and started to work with the pset 1 i noticed that even a person that knows programming like me and have worked with linux might get into some troubles
17:34:00 <rbm> what problems did you  face?
17:34:01 <miguel> besides there are students at my uni who have problems understanding the docs in english
17:34:23 <miguel> for instance the apis for using db calls you have to add them in
17:35:11 <miguel> your tcl library
17:35:11 <miguel> its just things that you have to mention in a future pset edition for OACS 3.x
17:35:11 <rbm> miguel: You mean the AOLserver DB procs?
17:35:16 <miguel> yes
17:35:21 <miguel> for instance db_foreach
17:35:23 <miguel> and things like that
17:35:35 <rbm> Well, that's the 4.x DB api, not 3.x
17:35:42 <miguel> oh sorry
17:36:12 <rbm> Someone ported the 4.x api to 3.x, but AFAIK it's part of the 3.x library already (maybe I'm wrong)
17:36:19 <miguel> i am using the psets for ACS 3.x or something like that
17:36:37 <rbm> You're probably using the psets for ACS 3.4, which we never ported
17:36:39 <miguel> yes there is a tcl file with all those definitions
17:36:53 <miguel> hold on a sec i am going to check it out
17:37:02 <rbm> 3.4 was a transition release from 3.2 to 4.0
17:37:45 <davb> That would be very confusing.
17:37:48 <miguel> the html file says 3.x problem set 1
17:38:08 <rbm> davb: It is.
17:38:28 <miguel> i am using oacs 3.2.5
17:38:57 <davb> bbiab - lunch
17:39:54 <miguel> you mean that with OACS 4 i wouldn have such problem?
17:40:29 <rbm> Well, with OACS 4 that API is already part of the kernel
17:41:06 <rbm> ACS 4 adds _a lot_ more to the 3.x base (which gives you more power and flexibility), but that also means added complexity.
17:41:21 <rbm> The templating system is awesome for example.
17:41:29 <miguel> ok
17:41:51 <miguel> so i am learning OACS 3.x for nothing?
17:41:55 <rbm> That's why I say it's better to start with 4.x.
17:42:08 <rbm> Not for nothing, but you'll have to bend your brain a little bit to adjust to 4.x.
17:42:26 <rbm> Whereas if you were starting with 4.x, this bending wouldn't need to take place.
17:42:29 <miguel> bend my brain?
17:42:47 <miguel> i mean i am planning just to do the psets
17:42:47 <rbm> Yeah. 
17:42:59 <miguel> that would make a big difference?
17:43:25 <rbm> Are you planning to just do the psets and nothing else evermore?
17:43:28 <miguel> i mean probably until march i would have them finished
17:43:45 <miguel> wouldnt sorry
17:44:09 <miguel> then i guess OACS 4.x would have a release
17:44:12 <rbm> Most people do the psets to get familiar with the system so they can develop applications using oacs 4
17:44:54 <miguel> so if i am planning to move to OACS 4.x later on it is no good to start over with the psets for ACS 3.x
17:44:55 <miguel> ?
17:45:16 <miguel> neither using OACS 3.x?
17:45:18 <rbm> It'd be better to start with 4.x psets
17:45:39 <miguel> say again: i am going to kill my coordinator ;)
17:46:01 <rbm> Doing the 3.x psets is not bad. But doing the 4.x psets is better.
17:46:13 <rbm> IMHO that is
17:46:21 <miguel> IMHO?
17:46:30 <rbm> In My Humble Opinion
17:46:36 <miguel> ok
17:46:45 <miguel> didnt know what is standed for
17:46:51 <miguel> didnt know what it standed for
17:46:56 <rbm> np
17:46:58 <miguel> ok
17:47:05 <miguel> after this preliminary
17:47:26 <miguel> i sent my post to the forums because i thought it was good to start over some collaboration
17:47:38 <miguel> with people of the spanish community who is using OACS
17:47:52 <miguel> not so many actually
17:48:31 <miguel> for instance i am planning with ola to fix my notes to do some kind of step-by-step guide of how to set up from sources the OACS system
17:48:55 <rbm> Vinod has a preliminary installation guide written
17:48:58 <miguel> besides i was thinking of adding just a few corrections
17:49:15 <miguel> i think that was the one ola showed me
17:49:27 <miguel> of course my coordinator didnt know that that one existed
17:49:50 <miguel> i was thinking of adding just a few corrections for using PG to the pset1
17:50:28 <miguel> also to translate that one to spanish for the people of the spanish community and for those students in my uni who have problems with English
17:50:53 <miguel> when i sent that post to the forums my coordinator got upset
17:51:07 <rbm> why?
17:51:17 <miguel> he thought that you roberto would think that i would translate all the docs into Spanish
17:51:57 <miguel> and that was not my "duty" (considering i am doing this for free and hes not paying me that comment upset me)
17:52:27 <miguel> they want to leader the spanish community of OACS
17:52:54 <miguel> i think he has a very corporate mind
17:53:26 <rbm> interestinsg
17:53:54 <miguel> my director told me that he might be jealous
17:54:50 <miguel> i just wanted to start some collaboration, for sure there might be people who know better the tool than us
17:55:05 <miguel> in the spanish community
17:55:37 <rbm> I think you're right and he's wring
17:55:43 <rbm> s/wring/wrong/
17:55:56 <miguel> i dont know if i will get the grant, he is not valueing my work so far
17:56:07 <miguel> very much
17:56:27 <miguel> but actually i am reconsidering if i would join that group
17:57:07 <miguel> they think that we (that we are just starting) we can learn the tool in less than 6 months, teach other people and start over a team to develop an intranet for a medium corporate
17:57:22 <miguel> maybe in September more or less
17:58:02 <miguel> i think you need more time to build up a team who get real experience of how to adjust OACS to the needs of the client
17:59:10 <miguel> besides it would be better not doing it in a corporate environment, maybe starting with a small project for the uni, with no contracts liability 
18:00:32 <miguel> but i think the tool is very interesting and i am insterested in improving my skills with PG and later with Oracle
18:00:44 <miguel> and I want to help out the community
18:01:17 <miguel> so i will just give you such docs that i talked about you and not doing it through my coordinator
18:01:42 <miguel> roberto are you sleeping ? did i bore you too much?
18:04:56 <rbm> I'm here, with brother on the phone
18:05:37 <miguel> ok
18:05:38 <miguel> sorry
18:07:02 <miguel> dave are you there?
18:33:40 <miguel> roberto: are you still on the phone ?
18:34:47 <rbm> Just got out
18:34:54 <miguel> ok
18:36:47 <miguel> have you my "testament"?
18:37:15 <rbm> ?
18:37:37 <miguel> sorry
18:37:53 <miguel> have you read my comments above?
18:37:55 <rbm> yes
18:37:59 <rbm> I think it's a good path
18:38:16 <miguel> so whats ur recommendation?
18:38:46 <miguel> and ur impression
18:39:20 <miguel> i know that you are one of the big guys in OACS so i will take seriously ur suggestions
18:41:44 <davb> * davb returns
18:41:52 <rbm> MY suggestion is for you to go with OACS 4. It's not unstable, we just haven't felt like it's the right time to release a .0 release
18:42:11 <rbm> About the spanish translation, whatever you translate we'll take
18:42:15 <davb> Now is a good time. the datamodel is very stable. 
18:42:52 <rbm> We're just polishing 4.x now, but all the major stuff is pretty stable.
18:42:59 <miguel> ok
18:43:10 <miguel> and about my coordinator approach?
18:43:54 <rbm> I can't tell your coordinator what to do
18:44:24 <rbm> It seems that he needs to get to understand how open source and OpenACS function a little better. 
18:45:11 <rbm> I don't think he's trying to do it the wrong way, but the open source process is not really something you 'get' without some prior involvement.
18:45:44 <miguel> ACS is now in a dead end?
18:45:57 <miguel> what do you mean with prior involvement?
18:46:48 <rbm> If you don't get involved with some open source project, it's hard to understand how it works.
18:46:57 <rbm> miguel: Define "ACS"
18:47:04 <rbm> ACS != OpenACS
18:47:26 <miguel> i know its just the rest of our students they are working with ACS + Oracle
18:47:47 <rbm> ACS is the toolkit ArsDigita wrote.
18:48:01 <rbm> We took it and ported it to PostgreSQL and made lots of improvements.
18:48:10 <davb> We are finishing the toolkit.
18:48:13 <rbm> ArsDigita no longer develops the Tcl version, only the Java version.
18:48:17 <miguel> ok
18:48:30 <miguel> but they will still develop that java version right?
18:49:06 <rbm> So there are: ACS/Java, ACS 3 (Oracle-only), OpenACS 3 (PostgreSQL-only) and OpenACS 4 (Tcl, Oracle and PostgreSQL)
18:49:17 <rbm> miguel: Yes, for how long I don't know.
18:49:29 <miguel> ok
18:50:00 <rbm> davb is right in that we are finishing the toolkit. ACS 4/Tcl was never really finished.
18:50:25 <miguel> so in ur opinion which path would be better to take for my coordinator or me in the case i want to use OACS
18:50:53 <miguel> philip greenspun is not involved in OACS right?
18:51:18 <rbm> Nope
18:51:26 <rbm> He's not involved in ACS Java either
18:51:50 <rbm> miguel: Learn OpenACS 4.
18:52:58 <miguel> and how i could get involved as you have suggested?
18:53:06 <davb> http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2833542,00.html
18:53:06 <chump> B: http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2833542,00.html from davb
18:53:13 <davb> B:|Content Mismanagement
18:53:14 <chump> titled item B
18:53:50 <davb> B:"The moral of this story? Model rational processes before applying software. "
18:53:50 <chump> commented item B
19:01:32 <miguel> what do you mean dave? i read ur link
19:01:54 <miguel> roberto and after learning OACS 4.x
19:01:55 <miguel> ?
19:03:03 <davb> I don't mean anything, I just post interesting links to the channel and they are recorded at http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openac/ircblog
19:03:38 <miguel> ok ;)
19:03:43 <rbm> miguel: After learning? Do whatever you want with it.
19:04:09 <rbm> Develop packages, write applications, contribute code, write documentation. Whatever.
19:04:57 <miguel> ok
19:05:33 <miguel> i didnt get your point when you said my coordinator need to know that you need to get some involvement with open source projects
19:06:38 <rbm> What I meant with that was that he needs to understand open source a little better if he wants to take full advantage of an open source product.
19:07:03 <rbm> Sharp, with its Zaurus PDA, is a good example of a company that understands open source. 
19:07:22 <miguel> why?
19:07:31 <rbm> Because they are doing it right.
19:07:38 <miguel> which steps did they take?
19:07:59 <miguel> where is their web site?
19:08:01 <rbm> You're too concerned about steps. This is not a midterm.
19:08:09 <miguel> hehehe
19:08:41 <rbm> There was an article about the Zaurus somewhere...
19:08:49 <miguel> well lets say which is their approach and why my coords is wrong
19:09:01 <rbm> It showed how Sharp was doing the right thing (tm) with the open source technologies they chose
19:09:27 <rbm> I don't know your coordinator's approach in full.
19:09:38 <rbm> I just know what you told me.
19:10:17 <miguel> i know ;)
19:10:28 <miguel> but considering my comments you took that impression
19:10:39 <rbm> yes
19:10:55 <miguel> may i ask why? ;)
19:11:27 <davb> http://www.uwm.edu/~radcliff/math/mathdir.html
19:11:27 <chump> C: http://www.uwm.edu/~radcliff/math/mathdir.html from davb
19:11:29 <rbm> again?
19:11:41 <davb> C:|Online Books and Lecture Notes in Mathematics
19:11:41 <chump> titled item C
19:11:46 <miguel> i would like to know because maybe i will try to set up a company working with open source tools
19:12:07 <rbm> mainly because of his attitude when you posted to the bboards. But then, I don't know the whole story behind it.
19:12:56 <miguel> i think his problem about it, was that they want to be the best among the spanish community
19:13:07 <miguel> because they want to be well considered in the OACS community
19:14:09 <miguel> and if they start collaborating with others, they would be only part of the bunch of Spanish people who work with OACS
19:14:29 <rbm> The only way to be the best in open source is if you collaborate.
19:14:30 <miguel> besides they could take their "idea"
19:14:34 <davb> They can do that by contributing back to the community :)
19:15:42 <davb> Its not a popularity contest. Most people who contribute to OpenACS are just getting work done with the toolkit, so they contribute back what they can.
19:15:48 <miguel> do you think that you can build a team for developing an intranet for a corporate in 6 months?
19:16:06 <miguel> considering none of us has experience
19:16:10 <miguel> in web development
19:16:12 <davb> With OpenACS? tricky, but not impossible.
19:16:21 <miguel> yes, with OACS
19:17:00 <davb> You need to become initmately familiar with the toolkit. To extend it you need to know how the different parts work together.
19:17:27 <davb> http://web.comlab.ox.ac.uk/oucl/publications/books/PfS/
19:17:28 <chump> D: http://web.comlab.ox.ac.uk/oucl/publications/books/PfS/ from davb
19:17:30 <miguel> as far as i am concerned i think you need to get real experience with a heavily loaded server, sorting out things with the db server
19:17:40 <davb> D:|Programming From Specifications
19:17:41 <chump> titled item D
19:17:47 <davb> D: book available online
19:17:48 <chump> commented item D
19:18:10 <davb> That too, but that is tuning. First you need to have a working system to test.
19:18:12 <miguel> sort out things like interconection stuff
19:18:51 <miguel> yes but i think you cannot be learning how to tune the system at the same time you are developing something for a corporate
19:19:28 <miguel> some kind of still be getting familiar with the insides of the toolkit when you actually are trying to develop something
19:19:45 <miguel> for a corporate
19:19:52 <rbm> s/corporate/corporation/
19:19:58 <miguel> sorry
19:20:08 <davb> The whole community is working on improving the basic toolkit. You will need to focus on mostly the improvments, additions you make to it.
19:20:09 <rbm> Tuning is intimately connected with the technology you're using.
19:20:24 <rbm> If you're using Java for example, the best way to tune it is not to use it :-)
19:20:36 <miguel> hehehe
19:21:34 <miguel> but they think that because i know programming i could become an expert in 6 months
19:22:05 <davb> The best way to get started is to start. Just start working with the toolkit. The templating system and other features make it relatively easy to customize the system.
19:22:27 <miguel> one thing is to add some tcl code for my purposes and another different one is to adjust the toolkit for a medium-size corporation 
19:23:12 <miguel> i agree with you dave
19:23:17 <miguel> but they want results
19:23:44 <davb> Also dotLRN is going to be released soon which will hopefully have code to start moving in the right direction to build an intranet.
19:24:20 <miguel> they have been "working" for two years with no results at all because all the people who were worth have gone
19:24:43 <miguel> they needed to live and without money can be tricky ;)
19:24:55 <miguel> dotLRN? whats that?
19:25:14 <davb> http://www.dotlrn.org
19:25:14 <chump> E: http://www.dotlrn.org from davb
19:28:48 <miguel> so dotlrn has more features on top 
19:28:49 <miguel> OACS?
19:29:05 <davb> Yes. It is an application built using OpenACS.
19:29:07 <rbm> dotLRN is a package built on top of OACS 4
19:29:37 <miguel> its for setting up a web site for learning whatever right?
19:29:44 <davb> IS it one package?
19:29:58 <rbm> They are using the toolkit to build an application, not really messing with the toolking (although this brings improvements to the toolkit)
19:30:15 <rbm> davb: Not sure if it's only one package. Most likely a set of packages.
19:30:22 <Psychephylax> hey
19:30:24 <Psychephylax> It's roberto
19:30:27 <Psychephylax> everyone hide
19:30:35 <rbm> It's psychephylax!
19:30:39 <Psychephylax> Hey Roberto!
19:30:41 <davb> Psychephylax: hi
19:30:44 <rbm> I missed the channel.
19:30:45 <Psychephylax> Hey dave
19:30:51 <Psychephylax> We missed Roberto :)
19:30:56 <miguel> hi psychephylax
19:30:58 <rbm> * rbm blushes
19:30:58 <Psychephylax> We need documentation for everything!
19:31:02 <Psychephylax> Hey miguel 
19:31:10 <rbm> Psychephylax: Working on it. I'm actually commiting a bunch of stuff right now.
19:31:29 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax has changed the topic to: Ho Ho Ho...Happy OACSing Holidays! Please drive thru!
19:31:37 <Psychephylax> Cool
19:32:22 <Psychephylax> How's everyone's holidays going?
19:32:45 <rbm> About to go to shower to get ready to leave. Just have to do this one commit.
19:32:50 <miguel> fine working ;)
19:32:57 <Psychephylax> hehe
19:33:20 <Psychephylax> hmmm
19:33:25 <Psychephylax> What to do about my email....
19:33:50 <miguel> roberto: thank you for hearing my newbie things
19:34:19 <davb> Fine thanks, Psychephylax
19:34:58 <Psychephylax> heh
19:35:01 <Psychephylax> Dave, guess what
19:35:31 <davb> What?
19:35:46 <Psychephylax> I got loaned to a different group
19:35:53 <Psychephylax> I don't know if that means no ACS for a while :(
19:37:06 <davb> Oh. 
19:37:11 <davb> In the same company?
19:37:14 <Psychephylax> yeah
19:37:20 <davb> Who will work on that app now?
19:37:28 <Psychephylax> Nobody probably
19:37:45 <davb> Aha. Wel good luck in your new position.
19:37:48 <miguel> roberto: i just wanted some advices. you guys in the US have lot of experience in Web development but here in Spain things are very different
19:38:07 <miguel> roberto: besides none trust open source over here
19:38:13 <rbm> miguel: A lot of people here in the U.S. are doing very stupid things in web development :-)
19:38:27 <miguel> lol
19:38:52 <rbm> miguel: If they don't trust open source, they haven't been doing their homework.
19:39:39 <miguel> this people want to offer information under suscription which i think could be good to get money but i dont think that will work, people in spain try to get everything for free
19:39:39 <rbm> There are so many horrible proprietary web development stuff out there that it should be enough to speak for itself.
19:39:57 <rbm> Everybody tries to get everything for free.
19:40:00 <miguel> hehehe yes you are right
19:40:25 <miguel> but in spain even when it is not for free
19:40:35 <rbm> If it's information that people really need, they'll pay for it, provided the cost is not higher than the benefit.
19:40:52 <rbm> Well, I'm off to shower. 
19:40:55 <miguel> ok
19:41:03 <rbm> I just made a commit to CVS. Just the XML files for now. Will generate new HTML soon.
19:41:10 <miguel> well talk much more about the translation thing 
19:41:51 <miguel> other time
19:43:11 <miguel> people in spain mainly use internet for chatting and sending text messages to mobiles ;)
19:43:26 <miguel> flat rates have just arrived here
19:44:00 <miguel> so i think we are lot of years behind from you guys about technology use by the general public
19:44:15 <Psychephylax> te-chno-lo-gy?
19:44:20 <Psychephylax> what is that term you speak of?
19:44:43 <miguel> i mean that you guys for instance have internet for already a few years
19:44:45 <miguel> for free
19:44:56 <miguel> we just have started to have flat rates 2 years ago
19:45:22 <miguel> that doesnt help that people use internet for their routinely tasks
19:45:45 <Psychephylax> heh
19:46:19 <miguel> if you go to any university in Spain, nobody knows how to send an email
19:46:34 <miguel> neither how to find interesting information for them on the net
19:47:06 <miguel> and we are meant to be the people who will change things in the future
19:48:44 <Psychephylax> sounds like you better get your butt in gear =)
19:48:50 <rbm> A lot of people in universities here can't send e-mail
19:49:00 <miguel> my butt in gear?
19:49:02 <Psychephylax> Art majors eh?
19:49:22 <miguel> roberto i am talking about people who are studying engineering
19:49:24 <Psychephylax> miguel I was joking because of the statement you made before
19:49:26 <miguel> which is very sad
19:49:44 <rbm> Heck, a lot of BIS (Business Information Systems) majors are not much more than business majors that read a "Microsofs Development" book.
19:49:54 <miguel> hehehe
19:49:54 <rbm> miguel: Oh. In that case..
19:50:01 <rbm> Psychephylax: No. Not only art majors.
19:50:32 <rbm> Made the commit, posted to the bboards.
19:50:35 <miguel> psychephylax what do you mean? my english is quite limited where it comes about expressions
19:50:37 <rbm> Now i'm really off to shower.
19:50:40 <rbm> unmoo for now.
19:50:51 <miguel> ok roberto bye
19:50:56 <Psychephylax> bye Roberto
19:50:58 <Psychephylax> happy holidays!
19:51:27 <Psychephylax> Miguel, You said "and we're the people who have to change that" (or something similar) so I made a little joke out of it saying you alone must change the world 
19:52:09 <miguel> puff i am not that good if you meant that
19:52:30 <Psychephylax> i know, it was a joke 
19:52:36 <miguel> ok
19:53:19 <miguel> its just that its very sad that you see that most of our teachers at college dont know programming at all
19:54:06 <miguel> so that gives you an idea of how we need to learn by ourselves if we want to get a job
19:55:38 <davb> Happy Holidays to all, hopefully I won't be back until after Christmas.
19:55:43 <Psychephylax> heh
19:55:47 <Psychephylax> ok, bye bye dave
19:55:49 <Psychephylax> happy holidays
19:56:05 <miguel> ok dave
19:56:08 <miguel> happy holidays
19:56:19 <davb> davb has quit ()
19:57:45 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax leaves too
19:57:56 <Psychephylax> Bye miguel happy holidays!
19:58:06 <miguel> you too
19:58:10 <miguel> bye guys
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