IRC log of openacs on 2001-12-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

01:17:42 [til]
til has quit (forward.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
01:20:05 [til]
til (~tils@62.116.25.202) has joined #OpenACS
03:38:21 [markd2]
markd2 (~markd2@r-41.39.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
03:44:53 [markd2]
markd2 has quit (forward.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
03:45:14 [markd2]
markd2 (~markd2@r-41.39.alltel.net) has joined #OpenACS
03:56:51 [markd2]
markd2 has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
06:12:55 [Psychephylax]
Psychephylax has quit (Remote closed the connection)
06:12:55 [Psychephylax]
Psychephylax (proxy@ool-18baa98f.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #openacs
06:34:31 [til]
til has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
06:54:31 [Psychephylax]
w
07:35:19 [jim]
jim (~jim@12-233-187-5.client.attbi.com) has joined #openacs
13:53:59 [davb]
davb (~dave@208.136.23.203) has joined #openacs
13:54:04 [davb]
Hello
14:32:17 [davb]
http://www.skipping.net
14:32:17 [chump]
A: http://www.skipping.net from davb
14:32:22 [davb]
A:|Skipping Dot Net
14:32:22 [chump]
titled item A
14:32:34 [davb]
A:"Building Next-Generation Web Services and Apps Without Paying The Microsoft Tax"
14:32:34 [chump]
commented item A
15:33:59 [markd2]
markd2 (~markd2@r-41.116.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
15:34:47 [jim]
re markd2
15:34:54 [markd2]
greets
15:36:19 [davb]
Hi
15:36:46 [jim]
are most of you folks on the east coast us?
15:38:20 [markd2]
I am
15:38:33 [davb]
me too, also Psychephylax
15:39:39 [jim]
hmm... I had what I thought was a good idea; I thought maybe openacs or someone using it might hold bootcamps
15:40:36 [jim]
I said so here, and every place suggested for holding them was somewhere like 3000 mi away from me...
15:41:38 [markd2]
* markd2 prefers acs bootcamps in Botswana
15:42:30 [davb]
That woudl be nice.
15:42:35 [jim]
wouldn't be able to make those either :P
15:42:38 [davb]
I prefer Hawaii myself.
15:43:08 [davb]
I was thinking of a virtual bootcamp.
15:43:32 [davb]
Each participant would need their own system...
15:43:42 [markd2]
that'd didn't work out well with aD's bootcamps
15:43:50 [jim]
who would be available to be buddies?
15:44:03 [markd2]
the "I'm gonna go away because I'm frustrated" factor was high
15:44:10 [markd2]
oacs may have a better shot
15:44:12 [davb]
We would have to get volunteers. Basically anyone who comes here is a buddy.
15:44:15 [markd2]
maybe with bboard monitors or something
15:44:21 [davb]
That too.
15:44:29 [markd2]
or have folks hang out on IRC
15:44:42 [jim]
I'm -hardly- qualified to be a buddy
15:44:46 [jim]
but,
15:44:49 [markd2]
that actually might rule(tM)
15:44:57 [jim]
I'm working on a java whiteboard
15:46:13 [markd2]
cool
15:46:29 [jim]
it's coming along... it doesn't save anything, and 2 out of 5 types of shapes don't serialize... but I'll figure that out
15:47:27 [jim]
to give you an idea, I'm still on-and-off workin on ps2
15:49:13 [jim]
how's MIT doing on their tuition-free thing? maybe this could be expanded to include SICP
15:49:34 [davb]
The book is free and you can get lectures from aduni.org
15:49:38 [davb]
:)
15:49:57 [jim]
videos?
15:50:13 [jim]
ahh, looking
15:51:55 [davb]
yes. the used to have excellent MIT lectures but they aren't available right now.
15:53:35 [jim]
sheeit. for 6.916?
16:00:54 [jim]
or 6.001?
16:10:31 [miguel]
miguel (root@cable192a061.usuarios.retecal.es) has joined #openacs
16:11:47 [davb]
6.916 I think
16:11:58 [davb]
Hi miguel
16:12:49 [miguel]
hi how are you doing?
16:13:11 [miguel]
what do you get if you do a who on my nickname? i am checking a linux irc client
16:15:55 [miguel]
dave?
16:16:06 [rbm]
rbm (rmello@fslc.ser.usu.edu) has joined #openacs
16:16:17 [rbm]
MOO!
16:17:18 [davb]
Holy RBM!
16:17:31 [davb]
I am fine thanks.
16:17:34 [rbm]
hey davb
16:17:48 [rbm]
hehe. I was actually going to ask "how are you?"
16:17:58 [davb]
:)
16:18:05 [rbm]
Happy Hollidays everybody
16:18:17 [miguel_]
miguel_ (root@cable192a061.usuarios.retecal.es) has joined #openacs
16:18:35 [miguel_]
miguel_ has quit (Client Quit)
16:18:46 [miguel]
miguel has quit (Remote closed the connection)
16:20:41 [rbm]
davb: Any chance I'll get those CDs?
16:21:07 [davb]
Yes! I am all ready to send them out. Sorry about the delay. Life happens.
16:23:27 [rbm]
It's no problem. I appreciate you doing this.
16:23:44 [rbm]
davb: That's awesome!
16:24:09 [davb]
No problem at all. I hopefully can get a nice 80Gig drive to send to them and get the whole set.
16:24:36 [davb]
I recall on the bboard someone asking if they had the original videos, but I don't know if anyone followed up.
16:24:42 [davb]
A DVD would be real nice.
16:25:50 [rbm]
indeed. It would be awesome
16:26:40 [markd2]
wow. rbm in the haus
16:27:27 [rbm]
markd2!
16:27:35 [rbm]
markd2: The prodigal son always returns :)
16:28:56 [rbm]
Linux brasileiro.net 2.4.17 #1 Sat Dec 22 11:31:24 MST 2001 i586 unknown
16:29:03 [rbm]
ph33r my n3w k3rn3l
16:29:46 [rbm]
I compiled it with the preemptible kernel patch. Seems fairly nice.
16:30:36 [rbm]
Can anyone get the ip of postgresql.org for me please?
16:30:48 [rbm]
It seems like the USU DNS is b0rken
16:33:17 [markd2]
neither postgresql.org or www.postgresql.org resolve for me
16:33:39 [davb]
works ok for me...please hold
16:33:45 [rbm]
Weird. They don't resolve to me either.
16:33:48 [markd2]
weird
16:34:16 [davb]
64.39.15.238
16:34:19 [markd2]
am I spelling it right?
16:34:20 [markd2]
www.postgresql.org
16:34:20 [rbm]
davb: tks
16:34:25 [davb]
thats it.
16:34:26 [rbm]
markd2: Yes.
16:34:28 [markd2]
doing nslookup against ns1.arsdigita.com doesn't work
16:34:47 [miguel]
miguel (root@cable192a061.usuarios.retecal.es) has joined #openacs
16:35:14 [rbm]
davb: is that www.postgresql.org ?
16:36:08 [davb]
says it is :)
16:36:34 [davb]
www.postgresql.org. 21h37m44s IN A 64.39.15.238
16:36:34 [miguel]
hi guys
16:36:37 [davb]
wb
16:37:04 [miguel]
would you mind to check whether the virtual protection on my ip is working?
16:40:06 [davb]
ok.
16:43:58 [davb]
how should I test it?
16:44:13 [miguel]
just try to get my info from the whois command
16:44:29 [miguel]
and see if you got my real ip or just a virtual ip
16:45:06 [markd2]
markd2 has quit ("Bork")
16:47:24 [miguel]
dave: have you figured out how to do it?
16:47:41 [davb]
I just see the host name. It doesn't show an IP address to me in mIRC
16:49:07 [miguel]
what do you get exactly?
16:49:54 [rbm]
you really really really really shouldn't be IRC'ing as root
16:50:31 [miguel]
ok i am going to reboot doesnt know whats going on
16:50:36 [miguel]
miguel has left #openacs
16:51:11 [rbm]
reboot?
16:54:14 [miguel]
miguel (miguel@cable192a061.usuarios.retecal.es) has joined #openacs
16:54:28 [miguel]
miguel has quit (Client Quit)
16:55:25 [rbm]
anyone worked with docbook in Red Hat and derivatives here?
16:55:36 [miguel]
miguel (miguel@cable192a061.usuarios.retecal.es) has joined #openacs
16:55:44 [davb]
sorry, no.
16:55:48 [miguel]
hi again
16:55:55 [miguel]
now changed to a different user
16:56:17 [miguel]
but i think you still got my ip ? dont you?
16:56:39 [davb]
Its the same as before.
16:56:52 [rbm]
miguel: Did you really reboot?
16:57:04 [miguel]
yes i did
16:57:07 [rbm]
why?
16:57:13 [miguel]
i mean
16:57:23 [miguel]
i logged out
16:57:32 [rbm]
Oh. That's significantly different :)
16:57:34 [miguel]
and log in with a normal user
16:57:44 [rbm]
Don't ever do as root what you can do as a regular user.
16:57:46 [miguel]
anyway i have RH 6.2 gnome
16:57:51 [miguel]
i know
16:57:54 [miguel]
i just forgot
16:57:57 [miguel]
;)
16:58:02 [rbm]
RH 6.2?!?!?!?
16:58:05 [miguel]
yes
16:58:09 [rbm]
That's very old. Have you updated that thing?
16:58:19 [rbm]
(the packages I mean)
16:58:30 [miguel]
i have the XIRC client but i have set it up for being invisible
16:58:40 [miguel]
but there is no virtual protection
16:58:52 [miguel]
i have to update it
16:59:05 [miguel]
anyway 7.0 was very crappy
16:59:09 [miguel]
7.1 still buggy
16:59:14 [miguel]
and 7.2 seems to be more stable
16:59:20 [rbm]
* rbm hands miguel Debian
16:59:40 [miguel]
i know....but i started with RH and transition takes time
16:59:41 [miguel]
;)
16:59:45 [rbm]
Bah.
16:59:57 [rbm]
It takes much more time to deal with the crap RH puts out
17:00:05 [miguel]
hehehe
17:00:25 [miguel]
anyway you know how to have virtual ip in XIRC client?
17:02:49 [miguel]
roberto: boa passagem do ano novo i dont know very much portuguese
17:03:50 [rbm]
miguel: :-)
17:04:10 [rbm]
miguel: That's about right. You should have used "de" instead of "do" but everything else is right.
17:04:29 [rbm]
Tengas un bueno nuevo ano
17:04:37 [rbm]
and Feliz Navidad
17:04:42 [miguel]
thanks
17:04:49 [miguel]
gracias
17:04:51 [miguel]
tu tambien
17:05:06 [rbm]
* rbm looks for Pascal to write in Dutch
17:06:47 [davb]
Mozilla 0.9.7 is available.
17:07:07 [rbm]
davb: That's old news :)
17:09:07 [davb]
I know, I have been off the computer all weekend :)
17:09:18 [miguel]
switch over back to the channel
17:09:47 [miguel]
well i just want to explain you a little bit my situation
17:09:58 [miguel]
and my groups situation
17:10:16 [miguel]
I am an intern in a small research institute in the university of leon
17:11:12 [rbm]
okay
17:11:23 [miguel]
and my director suggested me to do my final project to join a small group of people
17:11:23 [miguel]
who is trying to set up a company using ACS
17:12:02 [miguel]
actually their management seems to be not very good, they have been trying to get a bunch of people who is interested in working for nothing to set up such company
17:12:12 [miguel]
that has been for two years already
17:13:03 [rbm]
Trying to get employees to work for free is not a very good business model
17:13:23 [miguel]
but nobody is adhering to that project
17:13:23 [miguel]
i agree with you
17:13:47 [miguel]
well they want to pay two people (i would be one of them) through a university grant
17:14:03 [miguel]
to teach more people how to use ACS
17:14:54 [miguel]
but the university grants havent arrived yet ;)
17:14:54 [miguel]
there are few students doing their final project with ACS+Oracle
17:15:20 [miguel]
me as i knew PostgreSQL before i said i would prefer not to move into Oracle, because it would be more work for me
17:15:29 [miguel]
so they said ok, lets try openacs and postgresql
17:15:45 [miguel]
when i have started i have noticed that there was not very much docs about how
17:15:50 [miguel]
to set up such system
17:15:55 [miguel]
or the psets
17:16:02 [miguel]
using postgresql
17:16:05 [rbm]
True
17:16:25 [miguel]
well so far after being working 3-4 weeks i have set up the system
17:16:31 [miguel]
with olas help
17:16:32 [rbm]
But there are docs showing how to setup OpenACS with both Oracle PostgreSQL
17:17:02 [miguel]
yes but there is really missing a doc explaining step-by-step how to set up OACS
17:17:14 [miguel]
i successfully installed from sources aolserver
17:17:16 [miguel]
and postgresql
17:17:18 [miguel]
7.1.3
17:17:31 [miguel]
but there were things that i didnt know about OACS
17:17:37 [rbm]
It's not missing. It's there. But we need to improve it.
17:17:40 [miguel]
besides i had experience with Apache
17:17:53 [rbm]
Why did you install PG from sources?
17:17:55 [miguel]
but not with Aolserver and was difficult to debug log error
17:18:31 [miguel]
well, i tried first to install with the rpms but didnt work
17:18:31 [miguel]
for RH 7.2 neither RH 6.2
17:18:31 [rbm]
What did you do in Apache? I use the error log in apache all the time, especially when working with PHP *puke*
17:18:39 [rbm]
miguel: Get Debian.
17:18:51 [miguel]
yes, but i didnt know well all the commands of the nsd daemon
17:18:56 [miguel]
ola helped me about it
17:19:05 [miguel]
it was just a few two things that i missed out
17:19:09 [miguel]
not very importatn
17:19:16 [rbm]
We need to document better that we have AOLserver RPMs available
17:19:33 [rbm]
You could have used them.
17:19:35 [miguel]
the rpms for aolserver+pg and OACS dont work
17:19:51 [miguel]
at least i downloaded them from a web site
17:19:58 [miguel]
that says that they should work
17:20:06 [miguel]
but they didnt
17:20:10 [miguel]
neither aolserver
17:20:13 [miguel]
nor pg
17:20:13 [rbm]
"a web site"?
17:20:26 [miguel]
well, web page
17:20:31 [miguel]
sorry for my english
17:20:36 [miguel]
i cant remember the url
17:20:39 [rbm]
No, I meant to ask which website
17:20:39 [miguel]
i could check it out
17:20:52 [rbm]
The aolserver rpms are available from openacs.org
17:20:59 [rbm]
OpenACS 4 doesn't have RPMs yet.p
17:21:56 [rbm]
miguel: If you couldn't install the PostgreSQL RPMs your distribution is probably broken.
17:22:09 [rbm]
They should install fine.
17:22:18 [miguel]
no, i tried with oacs 3.2.5
17:22:58 [rbm]
I have been using Debian for long enough to almost forget the hell Red Hat users go through just to install a simple package.
17:22:59 [rbm]
miguel: Oh, I see.
17:23:04 [rbm]
So this is all for 3.2.5?
17:23:10 [miguel]
yes
17:23:13 [rbm]
I thought you were referring to OACS 4
17:23:16 [miguel]
no no
17:23:28 [miguel]
we didnt want to move to OACS 4 because it is still not stable
17:23:36 [rbm]
OACS 4 is pretty stable
17:23:42 [rbm]
OACS 3.x is a dead end
17:23:56 [miguel]
well, my coordinator doesnt know a thing about this then
17:24:04 [miguel]
he told me so
17:24:18 [miguel]
so which is the alpha version of OACS?
17:24:31 [rbm]
We will probably only do one more maintenance release of 3.x and then stop developing it.
17:24:43 [rbm]
miguel: OACS 4 is effectively in Beta.
17:24:45 [miguel]
ok
17:25:01 [miguel]
so thats what he meant
17:25:12 [rbm]
OACS 4 is officially in "alpha" but it really is beta quality software.
17:25:18 [miguel]
ok
17:25:37 [rbm]
The API is frozen and is stable. The packages work, and Don recently did some significant performance improvements in the PostgreSQL version.
17:25:52 [miguel]
well my coordinator thought that it would be better to wait until you guys have released a stable"
17:25:56 [miguel]
version
17:26:14 [rbm]
It would be _a lot_ of work to move a project from 3.x to 4.x
17:26:18 [miguel]
thats why i am using oacs 3
17:26:21 [rbm]
It's much better to start with 4.x
17:26:29 [miguel]
jesus christ
17:26:32 [miguel]
i am going to kill
17:26:34 [miguel]
my coordinator
17:26:41 [rbm]
We had to do just that recently at work, and it's not fun.
17:26:53 [miguel]
good to have your opinion
17:27:34 [miguel]
actually i am going to tell you about which kind of bigmouth is the guy who is coordinating the "technical" part of that future company
17:27:53 [miguel]
he told me because i am "experienced" using linux
17:28:13 [miguel]
that with rpms that would only took me one evening to have the whole system working
17:28:24 [miguel]
but i got problems as i have told you
17:29:20 [miguel]
then he told me that in one week i could have the pset 1, considering the differences between PG and Oracle and a few things you have to set up in OACS 3.x, it took me 8 working days
17:29:44 [miguel]
that thought that was not very good
17:29:51 [miguel]
providing i am normal it guy
17:29:56 [rbm]
It should have been very simple to setup PostgreSQL and AOLserver with RPMs
17:30:18 [miguel]
not a MIT guy
17:30:39 [rbm]
This is what you'd do with Debian: apt-get install postgresql aolserver
17:30:39 [miguel]
roberto dont know what happened but they didnt work
17:30:39 [rbm]
miguel: I believe you.
17:30:46 [miguel]
well now the system works, i will try that after my finals in february
17:31:35 [miguel]
considering that i had to look for all the docs in internet, and finally i found this lovely channel where ola helped me
17:32:02 [miguel]
and i had to do everything alone, without any help, you can imagine which kind of coordination he is doing
17:33:42 [miguel]
then after i got the system working and started to work with the pset 1 i noticed that even a person that knows programming like me and have worked with linux might get into some troubles
17:34:00 [rbm]
what problems did you face?
17:34:01 [miguel]
besides there are students at my uni who have problems understanding the docs in english
17:34:23 [miguel]
for instance the apis for using db calls you have to add them in
17:35:11 [miguel]
your tcl library
17:35:11 [miguel]
its just things that you have to mention in a future pset edition for OACS 3.x
17:35:11 [rbm]
miguel: You mean the AOLserver DB procs?
17:35:16 [miguel]
yes
17:35:21 [miguel]
for instance db_foreach
17:35:23 [miguel]
and things like that
17:35:35 [rbm]
Well, that's the 4.x DB api, not 3.x
17:35:42 [miguel]
oh sorry
17:36:12 [rbm]
Someone ported the 4.x api to 3.x, but AFAIK it's part of the 3.x library already (maybe I'm wrong)
17:36:19 [miguel]
i am using the psets for ACS 3.x or something like that
17:36:37 [rbm]
You're probably using the psets for ACS 3.4, which we never ported
17:36:39 [miguel]
yes there is a tcl file with all those definitions
17:36:53 [miguel]
hold on a sec i am going to check it out
17:37:02 [rbm]
3.4 was a transition release from 3.2 to 4.0
17:37:45 [davb]
That would be very confusing.
17:37:48 [miguel]
the html file says 3.x problem set 1
17:38:08 [rbm]
davb: It is.
17:38:28 [miguel]
i am using oacs 3.2.5
17:38:57 [davb]
bbiab - lunch
17:39:54 [miguel]
you mean that with OACS 4 i wouldn have such problem?
17:40:29 [rbm]
Well, with OACS 4 that API is already part of the kernel
17:41:06 [rbm]
ACS 4 adds _a lot_ more to the 3.x base (which gives you more power and flexibility), but that also means added complexity.
17:41:21 [rbm]
The templating system is awesome for example.
17:41:29 [miguel]
ok
17:41:51 [miguel]
so i am learning OACS 3.x for nothing?
17:41:55 [rbm]
That's why I say it's better to start with 4.x.
17:42:08 [rbm]
Not for nothing, but you'll have to bend your brain a little bit to adjust to 4.x.
17:42:26 [rbm]
Whereas if you were starting with 4.x, this bending wouldn't need to take place.
17:42:29 [miguel]
bend my brain?
17:42:47 [miguel]
i mean i am planning just to do the psets
17:42:47 [rbm]
Yeah.
17:42:59 [miguel]
that would make a big difference?
17:43:25 [rbm]
Are you planning to just do the psets and nothing else evermore?
17:43:28 [miguel]
i mean probably until march i would have them finished
17:43:45 [miguel]
wouldnt sorry
17:44:09 [miguel]
then i guess OACS 4.x would have a release
17:44:12 [rbm]
Most people do the psets to get familiar with the system so they can develop applications using oacs 4
17:44:54 [miguel]
so if i am planning to move to OACS 4.x later on it is no good to start over with the psets for ACS 3.x
17:44:55 [miguel]
?
17:45:16 [miguel]
neither using OACS 3.x?
17:45:18 [rbm]
It'd be better to start with 4.x psets
17:45:39 [miguel]
say again: i am going to kill my coordinator ;)
17:46:01 [rbm]
Doing the 3.x psets is not bad. But doing the 4.x psets is better.
17:46:13 [rbm]
IMHO that is
17:46:21 [miguel]
IMHO?
17:46:30 [rbm]
In My Humble Opinion
17:46:36 [miguel]
ok
17:46:45 [miguel]
didnt know what is standed for
17:46:51 [miguel]
didnt know what it standed for
17:46:56 [rbm]
np
17:46:58 [miguel]
ok
17:47:05 [miguel]
after this preliminary
17:47:26 [miguel]
i sent my post to the forums because i thought it was good to start over some collaboration
17:47:38 [miguel]
with people of the spanish community who is using OACS
17:47:52 [miguel]
not so many actually
17:48:31 [miguel]
for instance i am planning with ola to fix my notes to do some kind of step-by-step guide of how to set up from sources the OACS system
17:48:55 [rbm]
Vinod has a preliminary installation guide written
17:48:58 [miguel]
besides i was thinking of adding just a few corrections
17:49:15 [miguel]
i think that was the one ola showed me
17:49:27 [miguel]
of course my coordinator didnt know that that one existed
17:49:50 [miguel]
i was thinking of adding just a few corrections for using PG to the pset1
17:50:28 [miguel]
also to translate that one to spanish for the people of the spanish community and for those students in my uni who have problems with English
17:50:53 [miguel]
when i sent that post to the forums my coordinator got upset
17:51:07 [rbm]
why?
17:51:17 [miguel]
he thought that you roberto would think that i would translate all the docs into Spanish
17:51:57 [miguel]
and that was not my "duty" (considering i am doing this for free and hes not paying me that comment upset me)
17:52:27 [miguel]
they want to leader the spanish community of OACS
17:52:54 [miguel]
i think he has a very corporate mind
17:53:26 [rbm]
interestinsg
17:53:54 [miguel]
my director told me that he might be jealous
17:54:50 [miguel]
i just wanted to start some collaboration, for sure there might be people who know better the tool than us
17:55:05 [miguel]
in the spanish community
17:55:37 [rbm]
I think you're right and he's wring
17:55:43 [rbm]
s/wring/wrong/
17:55:56 [miguel]
i dont know if i will get the grant, he is not valueing my work so far
17:56:07 [miguel]
very much
17:56:27 [miguel]
but actually i am reconsidering if i would join that group
17:57:07 [miguel]
they think that we (that we are just starting) we can learn the tool in less than 6 months, teach other people and start over a team to develop an intranet for a medium corporate
17:57:22 [miguel]
maybe in September more or less
17:58:02 [miguel]
i think you need more time to build up a team who get real experience of how to adjust OACS to the needs of the client
17:59:10 [miguel]
besides it would be better not doing it in a corporate environment, maybe starting with a small project for the uni, with no contracts liability
18:00:32 [miguel]
but i think the tool is very interesting and i am insterested in improving my skills with PG and later with Oracle
18:00:44 [miguel]
and I want to help out the community
18:01:17 [miguel]
so i will just give you such docs that i talked about you and not doing it through my coordinator
18:01:42 [miguel]
roberto are you sleeping ? did i bore you too much?
18:04:56 [rbm]
I'm here, with brother on the phone
18:05:37 [miguel]
ok
18:05:38 [miguel]
sorry
18:07:02 [miguel]
dave are you there?
18:33:40 [miguel]
roberto: are you still on the phone ?
18:34:47 [rbm]
Just got out
18:34:54 [miguel]
ok
18:36:47 [miguel]
have you my "testament"?
18:37:15 [rbm]
?
18:37:37 [miguel]
sorry
18:37:53 [miguel]
have you read my comments above?
18:37:55 [rbm]
yes
18:37:59 [rbm]
I think it's a good path
18:38:16 [miguel]
so whats ur recommendation?
18:38:46 [miguel]
and ur impression
18:39:20 [miguel]
i know that you are one of the big guys in OACS so i will take seriously ur suggestions
18:41:44 [davb]
* davb returns
18:41:52 [rbm]
MY suggestion is for you to go with OACS 4. It's not unstable, we just haven't felt like it's the right time to release a .0 release
18:42:11 [rbm]
About the spanish translation, whatever you translate we'll take
18:42:15 [davb]
Now is a good time. the datamodel is very stable.
18:42:52 [rbm]
We're just polishing 4.x now, but all the major stuff is pretty stable.
18:42:59 [miguel]
ok
18:43:10 [miguel]
and about my coordinator approach?
18:43:54 [rbm]
I can't tell your coordinator what to do
18:44:24 [rbm]
It seems that he needs to get to understand how open source and OpenACS function a little better.
18:45:11 [rbm]
I don't think he's trying to do it the wrong way, but the open source process is not really something you 'get' without some prior involvement.
18:45:44 [miguel]
ACS is now in a dead end?
18:45:57 [miguel]
what do you mean with prior involvement?
18:46:48 [rbm]
If you don't get involved with some open source project, it's hard to understand how it works.
18:46:57 [rbm]
miguel: Define "ACS"
18:47:04 [rbm]
ACS != OpenACS
18:47:26 [miguel]
i know its just the rest of our students they are working with ACS + Oracle
18:47:47 [rbm]
ACS is the toolkit ArsDigita wrote.
18:48:01 [rbm]
We took it and ported it to PostgreSQL and made lots of improvements.
18:48:10 [davb]
We are finishing the toolkit.
18:48:13 [rbm]
ArsDigita no longer develops the Tcl version, only the Java version.
18:48:17 [miguel]
ok
18:48:30 [miguel]
but they will still develop that java version right?
18:49:06 [rbm]
So there are: ACS/Java, ACS 3 (Oracle-only), OpenACS 3 (PostgreSQL-only) and OpenACS 4 (Tcl, Oracle and PostgreSQL)
18:49:17 [rbm]
miguel: Yes, for how long I don't know.
18:49:29 [miguel]
ok
18:50:00 [rbm]
davb is right in that we are finishing the toolkit. ACS 4/Tcl was never really finished.
18:50:25 [miguel]
so in ur opinion which path would be better to take for my coordinator or me in the case i want to use OACS
18:50:53 [miguel]
philip greenspun is not involved in OACS right?
18:51:18 [rbm]
Nope
18:51:26 [rbm]
He's not involved in ACS Java either
18:51:50 [rbm]
miguel: Learn OpenACS 4.
18:52:58 [miguel]
and how i could get involved as you have suggested?
18:53:06 [davb]
http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2833542,00.html
18:53:06 [chump]
B: http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2833542,00.html from davb
18:53:13 [davb]
B:|Content Mismanagement
18:53:14 [chump]
titled item B
18:53:50 [davb]
B:"The moral of this story? Model rational processes before applying software. "
18:53:50 [chump]
commented item B
19:01:32 [miguel]
what do you mean dave? i read ur link
19:01:54 [miguel]
roberto and after learning OACS 4.x
19:01:55 [miguel]
?
19:03:03 [davb]
I don't mean anything, I just post interesting links to the channel and they are recorded at http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openac/ircblog
19:03:38 [miguel]
ok ;)
19:03:43 [rbm]
miguel: After learning? Do whatever you want with it.
19:04:09 [rbm]
Develop packages, write applications, contribute code, write documentation. Whatever.
19:04:57 [miguel]
ok
19:05:33 [miguel]
i didnt get your point when you said my coordinator need to know that you need to get some involvement with open source projects
19:06:38 [rbm]
What I meant with that was that he needs to understand open source a little better if he wants to take full advantage of an open source product.
19:07:03 [rbm]
Sharp, with its Zaurus PDA, is a good example of a company that understands open source.
19:07:22 [miguel]
why?
19:07:31 [rbm]
Because they are doing it right.
19:07:38 [miguel]
which steps did they take?
19:07:59 [miguel]
where is their web site?
19:08:01 [rbm]
You're too concerned about steps. This is not a midterm.
19:08:09 [miguel]
hehehe
19:08:41 [rbm]
There was an article about the Zaurus somewhere...
19:08:49 [miguel]
well lets say which is their approach and why my coords is wrong
19:09:01 [rbm]
It showed how Sharp was doing the right thing (tm) with the open source technologies they chose
19:09:27 [rbm]
I don't know your coordinator's approach in full.
19:09:38 [rbm]
I just know what you told me.
19:10:17 [miguel]
i know ;)
19:10:28 [miguel]
but considering my comments you took that impression
19:10:39 [rbm]
yes
19:10:55 [miguel]
may i ask why? ;)
19:11:27 [davb]
http://www.uwm.edu/~radcliff/math/mathdir.html
19:11:27 [chump]
C: http://www.uwm.edu/~radcliff/math/mathdir.html from davb
19:11:29 [rbm]
again?
19:11:41 [davb]
C:|Online Books and Lecture Notes in Mathematics
19:11:41 [chump]
titled item C
19:11:46 [miguel]
i would like to know because maybe i will try to set up a company working with open source tools
19:12:07 [rbm]
mainly because of his attitude when you posted to the bboards. But then, I don't know the whole story behind it.
19:12:56 [miguel]
i think his problem about it, was that they want to be the best among the spanish community
19:13:07 [miguel]
because they want to be well considered in the OACS community
19:14:09 [miguel]
and if they start collaborating with others, they would be only part of the bunch of Spanish people who work with OACS
19:14:29 [rbm]
The only way to be the best in open source is if you collaborate.
19:14:30 [miguel]
besides they could take their "idea"
19:14:34 [davb]
They can do that by contributing back to the community :)
19:15:42 [davb]
Its not a popularity contest. Most people who contribute to OpenACS are just getting work done with the toolkit, so they contribute back what they can.
19:15:48 [miguel]
do you think that you can build a team for developing an intranet for a corporate in 6 months?
19:16:06 [miguel]
considering none of us has experience
19:16:10 [miguel]
in web development
19:16:12 [davb]
With OpenACS? tricky, but not impossible.
19:16:21 [miguel]
yes, with OACS
19:17:00 [davb]
You need to become initmately familiar with the toolkit. To extend it you need to know how the different parts work together.
19:17:27 [davb]
http://web.comlab.ox.ac.uk/oucl/publications/books/PfS/
19:17:28 [chump]
D: http://web.comlab.ox.ac.uk/oucl/publications/books/PfS/ from davb
19:17:30 [miguel]
as far as i am concerned i think you need to get real experience with a heavily loaded server, sorting out things with the db server
19:17:40 [davb]
D:|Programming From Specifications
19:17:41 [chump]
titled item D
19:17:47 [davb]
D: book available online
19:17:48 [chump]
commented item D
19:18:10 [davb]
That too, but that is tuning. First you need to have a working system to test.
19:18:12 [miguel]
sort out things like interconection stuff
19:18:51 [miguel]
yes but i think you cannot be learning how to tune the system at the same time you are developing something for a corporate
19:19:28 [miguel]
some kind of still be getting familiar with the insides of the toolkit when you actually are trying to develop something
19:19:45 [miguel]
for a corporate
19:19:52 [rbm]
s/corporate/corporation/
19:19:58 [miguel]
sorry
19:20:08 [davb]
The whole community is working on improving the basic toolkit. You will need to focus on mostly the improvments, additions you make to it.
19:20:09 [rbm]
Tuning is intimately connected with the technology you're using.
19:20:24 [rbm]
If you're using Java for example, the best way to tune it is not to use it :-)
19:20:36 [miguel]
hehehe
19:21:34 [miguel]
but they think that because i know programming i could become an expert in 6 months
19:22:05 [davb]
The best way to get started is to start. Just start working with the toolkit. The templating system and other features make it relatively easy to customize the system.
19:22:27 [miguel]
one thing is to add some tcl code for my purposes and another different one is to adjust the toolkit for a medium-size corporation
19:23:12 [miguel]
i agree with you dave
19:23:17 [miguel]
but they want results
19:23:44 [davb]
Also dotLRN is going to be released soon which will hopefully have code to start moving in the right direction to build an intranet.
19:24:20 [miguel]
they have been "working" for two years with no results at all because all the people who were worth have gone
19:24:43 [miguel]
they needed to live and without money can be tricky ;)
19:24:55 [miguel]
dotLRN? whats that?
19:25:14 [davb]
http://www.dotlrn.org
19:25:14 [chump]
E: http://www.dotlrn.org from davb
19:28:48 [miguel]
so dotlrn has more features on top
19:28:49 [miguel]
OACS?
19:29:05 [davb]
Yes. It is an application built using OpenACS.
19:29:07 [rbm]
dotLRN is a package built on top of OACS 4
19:29:37 [miguel]
its for setting up a web site for learning whatever right?
19:29:44 [davb]
IS it one package?
19:29:58 [rbm]
They are using the toolkit to build an application, not really messing with the toolking (although this brings improvements to the toolkit)
19:30:15 [rbm]
davb: Not sure if it's only one package. Most likely a set of packages.
19:30:22 [Psychephylax]
hey
19:30:24 [Psychephylax]
It's roberto
19:30:27 [Psychephylax]
everyone hide
19:30:35 [rbm]
It's psychephylax!
19:30:39 [Psychephylax]
Hey Roberto!
19:30:41 [davb]
Psychephylax: hi
19:30:44 [rbm]
I missed the channel.
19:30:45 [Psychephylax]
Hey dave
19:30:51 [Psychephylax]
We missed Roberto :)
19:30:56 [miguel]
hi psychephylax
19:30:58 [rbm]
* rbm blushes
19:30:58 [Psychephylax]
We need documentation for everything!
19:31:02 [Psychephylax]
Hey miguel
19:31:10 [rbm]
Psychephylax: Working on it. I'm actually commiting a bunch of stuff right now.
19:31:29 [Psychephylax]
Psychephylax has changed the topic to: Ho Ho Ho...Happy OACSing Holidays! Please drive thru!
19:31:37 [Psychephylax]
Cool
19:32:22 [Psychephylax]
How's everyone's holidays going?
19:32:45 [rbm]
About to go to shower to get ready to leave. Just have to do this one commit.
19:32:50 [miguel]
fine working ;)
19:32:57 [Psychephylax]
hehe
19:33:20 [Psychephylax]
hmmm
19:33:25 [Psychephylax]
What to do about my email....
19:33:50 [miguel]
roberto: thank you for hearing my newbie things
19:34:19 [davb]
Fine thanks, Psychephylax
19:34:58 [Psychephylax]
heh
19:35:01 [Psychephylax]
Dave, guess what
19:35:31 [davb]
What?
19:35:46 [Psychephylax]
I got loaned to a different group
19:35:53 [Psychephylax]
I don't know if that means no ACS for a while :(
19:37:06 [davb]
Oh.
19:37:11 [davb]
In the same company?
19:37:14 [Psychephylax]
yeah
19:37:20 [davb]
Who will work on that app now?
19:37:28 [Psychephylax]
Nobody probably
19:37:45 [davb]
Aha. Wel good luck in your new position.
19:37:48 [miguel]
roberto: i just wanted some advices. you guys in the US have lot of experience in Web development but here in Spain things are very different
19:38:07 [miguel]
roberto: besides none trust open source over here
19:38:13 [rbm]
miguel: A lot of people here in the U.S. are doing very stupid things in web development :-)
19:38:27 [miguel]
lol
19:38:52 [rbm]
miguel: If they don't trust open source, they haven't been doing their homework.
19:39:39 [miguel]
this people want to offer information under suscription which i think could be good to get money but i dont think that will work, people in spain try to get everything for free
19:39:39 [rbm]
There are so many horrible proprietary web development stuff out there that it should be enough to speak for itself.
19:39:57 [rbm]
Everybody tries to get everything for free.
19:40:00 [miguel]
hehehe yes you are right
19:40:25 [miguel]
but in spain even when it is not for free
19:40:35 [rbm]
If it's information that people really need, they'll pay for it, provided the cost is not higher than the benefit.
19:40:52 [rbm]
Well, I'm off to shower.
19:40:55 [miguel]
ok
19:41:03 [rbm]
I just made a commit to CVS. Just the XML files for now. Will generate new HTML soon.
19:41:10 [miguel]
well talk much more about the translation thing
19:41:51 [miguel]
other time
19:43:11 [miguel]
people in spain mainly use internet for chatting and sending text messages to mobiles ;)
19:43:26 [miguel]
flat rates have just arrived here
19:44:00 [miguel]
so i think we are lot of years behind from you guys about technology use by the general public
19:44:15 [Psychephylax]
te-chno-lo-gy?
19:44:20 [Psychephylax]
what is that term you speak of?
19:44:43 [miguel]
i mean that you guys for instance have internet for already a few years
19:44:45 [miguel]
for free
19:44:56 [miguel]
we just have started to have flat rates 2 years ago
19:45:22 [miguel]
that doesnt help that people use internet for their routinely tasks
19:45:45 [Psychephylax]
heh
19:46:19 [miguel]
if you go to any university in Spain, nobody knows how to send an email
19:46:34 [miguel]
neither how to find interesting information for them on the net
19:47:06 [miguel]
and we are meant to be the people who will change things in the future
19:48:44 [Psychephylax]
sounds like you better get your butt in gear =)
19:48:50 [rbm]
A lot of people in universities here can't send e-mail
19:49:00 [miguel]
my butt in gear?
19:49:02 [Psychephylax]
Art majors eh?
19:49:22 [miguel]
roberto i am talking about people who are studying engineering
19:49:24 [Psychephylax]
miguel I was joking because of the statement you made before
19:49:26 [miguel]
which is very sad
19:49:44 [rbm]
Heck, a lot of BIS (Business Information Systems) majors are not much more than business majors that read a "Microsofs Development" book.
19:49:54 [miguel]
hehehe
19:49:54 [rbm]
miguel: Oh. In that case..
19:50:01 [rbm]
Psychephylax: No. Not only art majors.
19:50:32 [rbm]
Made the commit, posted to the bboards.
19:50:35 [miguel]
psychephylax what do you mean? my english is quite limited where it comes about expressions
19:50:37 [rbm]
Now i'm really off to shower.
19:50:40 [rbm]
unmoo for now.
19:50:51 [miguel]
ok roberto bye
19:50:56 [Psychephylax]
bye Roberto
19:50:58 [Psychephylax]
happy holidays!
19:51:27 [Psychephylax]
Miguel, You said "and we're the people who have to change that" (or something similar) so I made a little joke out of it saying you alone must change the world
19:52:09 [miguel]
puff i am not that good if you meant that
19:52:30 [Psychephylax]
i know, it was a joke
19:52:36 [miguel]
ok
19:53:19 [miguel]
its just that its very sad that you see that most of our teachers at college dont know programming at all
19:54:06 [miguel]
so that gives you an idea of how we need to learn by ourselves if we want to get a job
19:55:38 [davb]
Happy Holidays to all, hopefully I won't be back until after Christmas.
19:55:43 [Psychephylax]
heh
19:55:47 [Psychephylax]
ok, bye bye dave
19:55:49 [Psychephylax]
happy holidays
19:56:05 [miguel]
ok dave
19:56:08 [miguel]
happy holidays
19:56:19 [davb]
davb has quit ()
19:57:45 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax leaves too
19:57:56 [Psychephylax]
Bye miguel happy holidays!
19:58:06 [miguel]
you too
19:58:10 [miguel]
bye guys
19:58:16 [miguel]
miguel has quit ("[x]chat")
20:20:35 [rbm]
* rbm leaven
20:20:37 [rbm]
* rbm leaves
23:16:47 [hazmat]
hazmat has quit (forward.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
23:31:31 [chump]
chump has quit (forward.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
23:31:31 [rbm]
rbm has quit (forward.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
23:31:31 [jim]
jim has quit (forward.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net)
23:31:58 [hazmat]
hazmat (~ender@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #OpenACS
23:31:58 [rbm]
rbm (rmello@fslc.ser.usu.edu) has joined #OpenACS
23:31:58 [jim]
jim (~jim@12-233-187-5.client.attbi.com) has joined #OpenACS
23:31:58 [chump]
chump (~chump@alb-24-58-160-41.nycap.rr.com) has joined #OpenACS
23:32:26 [ChanServ]
[#OpenACS] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog