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01:59:00 <Spork> MishuPishu!
01:59:05 <Spork> Spork is now known as MishuPishu
01:59:12 <docwolf> mushi mushi!
01:59:18 <MishuPishu> hehehe
01:59:26 <MishuPishu> * MishuPishu jabs a banana at Mark
02:00:59 <markd2> hello
02:01:12 <MishuPishu> hey
02:01:41 <MishuPishu> I got my tests back
02:01:50 <markd2> how'd ya do?
02:01:59 <MishuPishu> very very very bad
02:02:04 <markd2> :-(
02:02:12 <MishuPishu> yeah
02:02:34 <MishuPishu> on the digital design test I got a 30 out of 90...I thought I did much much worse than that even
02:02:37 <MishuPishu> he was generous
02:03:03 <markd2> how'd the rest of teh class do?
02:03:20 <MishuPishu> Average was a 60
02:03:44 <MishuPishu> but oh well
02:03:52 <MishuPishu> The databases test I did bad on too
02:04:00 <MishuPishu> but he made it worth only 15% of the grade
02:04:09 <MishuPishu> so I can do well on the final, I'm getting an A 
02:04:13 <MishuPishu> And the project
02:06:16 <MishuPishu> i need to lose some weight
02:06:28 <MishuPishu> i think I've been eating too many of your cookies
02:11:33 <markd2> I don't need the extra weight either
02:12:06 <MishuPishu> yeah but I'm too fat to die!!!!
02:12:12 <MishuPishu> I mean, i'm too young to have a stroke!!!
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02:13:32 <MishuPishu> * MishuPishu pokes talli with a cookie
02:14:10 <talli> * talli pulls out an automatic rifle and fills MishuPishu with lead
02:14:22 <MishuPishu> mmmm....lead cookies
02:15:55 <MishuPishu> anyone know when the Nimbda worm is going to die off?
02:16:22 <MishuPishu> if at all
02:19:56 <MishuPishu> heh
02:20:04 <MishuPishu> I hope I see some monkeys in Santo Domingo
02:27:37 <markd2> * markd2 avoids the 'look in a mirror' line
02:30:04 <MishuPishu> :/
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02:42:08 <MishuPishu> * MishuPishu heads to bed
02:42:38 <markd2> nite
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04:21:06 <ElectricElf> [GlobalNotice] Okeydokey :) We'll be disconnecting services in about 60 seconds. We're moving them to a beefier server with a better connection. Isn't it nice we can do that now? :) Anyways, them to be back in a few minutes.
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15:22:44 <MishuPishu> yikes
15:27:23 <markd2> ?
15:27:44 <MishuPishu> all them splits and joins
15:27:57 <MishuPishu> MishuPishu is now known as MachuPichu
15:29:20 <MachuPichu> stupid html/adp question
15:29:26 <MachuPichu> why can't I do <!--
15:29:28 <MachuPichu> --> 
15:29:32 <MachuPichu> to code out my code
15:30:22 <MachuPichu> comment out my code
15:30:23 <MachuPichu> lol
15:45:53 <MachuPichu> roll call?
15:46:07 <MachuPichu> Mark, want a cookie?
15:54:09 <markd2> hi
15:54:19 <MachuPichu> hi :)
15:54:21 <MachuPichu> want a cookie?
15:54:24 <markd2> are you trying to comment out code in an ADP with <!-- --> ?
15:54:31 <MachuPichu> yes
15:54:39 <MachuPichu> well, I was
15:55:06 <markd2> remember where the comments are processed
15:55:18 <markd2> the browser does <!-- -->, long after your code has executed
15:55:32 <MachuPichu> heh
15:55:43 <MachuPichu> so what's the "proper" way
15:56:13 <markd2> or wrap it with if  { 0 } 
15:56:25 <markd2> or change the <% tag to something else
15:56:33 <markd2> like <blink
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15:56:52 <MachuPichu> hi talli
15:56:58 <MachuPichu> that confused me
15:57:21 <MachuPichu> I wrapped the whole plain old html block in an adp page in <!-- --> and it did not work
15:59:32 <markd2> right
15:59:39 <markd2> the ADP parser doesn't interpret those tags!
15:59:56 <MachuPichu> but the browser does
15:59:58 <markd2> all the ADP parser looks at is <% <%= and any tags registered manually (and <!-- aren't in there )
16:00:04 <markd2> browser != server
16:00:05 <MachuPichu> Right
16:00:05 <markd2> that's wht the browser does
16:00:12 <MachuPichu> oh
16:00:13 <MachuPichu> i see
16:00:15 <markd2> <!-- are HTML comments, not ADP  or TCL  comments
16:00:15 <MachuPichu> lol
16:00:32 <MachuPichu> So it still errors out because it doesn't get that far
16:00:35 <MachuPichu> :(
16:00:37 <MachuPichu> makes sense
16:01:14 <MachuPichu> Another question
16:01:23 <MachuPichu> Say I have 5 tables in a page
16:01:27 <MachuPichu> they all have to look the same
16:01:30 <markd2> I have 5 tables in a page
16:01:38 <MachuPichu> * MachuPichu gives Mark a cookie
16:01:57 <MachuPichu> * MachuPichu makes mental note to use "Picture" instead of "Say"
16:02:18 <MachuPichu> picture/imagine that there's a page with 5 tables
16:02:24 <MachuPichu> left cells are 35% of the table
16:02:31 <MachuPichu> right are 65%
16:02:49 <markd2> ok
16:02:57 <MachuPichu> Instead of having to do this in a very ugly cell by cell way
16:03:03 <MachuPichu> is there a better adp'ish way?
16:03:22 <MachuPichu> the way the other script does it is that it registers a proc to do that but it seems a waste here
16:03:31 <markd2> can you do in one row <td width='35%'>
16:03:46 <markd2> that might percolate down to the rest of the table
16:03:55 <MachuPichu> I tried, and no
16:03:59 <MachuPichu> it takes the largest 
16:06:34 <markdfoo> markdfoo (~markd@r-41.36.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
16:06:41 <MachuPichu> Craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap!
16:06:47 <markdfoo> damn ISP
16:07:00 <MachuPichu> Congratulations!  You have been selected for an on-campus
16:07:00 <MachuPichu> first round interview with Lehman Brothers IT on Tuesday,
16:07:01 <MachuPichu> November 27th.
16:07:08 <MachuPichu> Problem is
16:07:12 <markdfoo> you'll be gone
16:07:18 <MachuPichu> sign up time is when I'll be far far away
16:07:28 <MachuPichu> i won't be gone
16:07:33 <markd2> markd2 has quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds)
16:07:35 <MachuPichu> I'll be back, but I need to sign up in 4 days
16:07:36 <markdfoo> markdfoo is now known as markd2
16:07:51 <markd2> I've worked with some folks from Lehman.  they were dorks
16:08:09 <MachuPichu> <--dork
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16:08:15 <MachuPichu> will fit right in
16:08:24 <MachuPichu> correction
16:08:27 <MachuPichu> eDork©
16:08:53 <markd2> heh
16:10:19 <MachuPichu> want to make some real(Not cookie) $?
16:10:26 <MachuPichu> not a lot but hey...
16:10:30 <MachuPichu> gotta find a way
16:12:08 <markd2> looks like you need the size in each row
16:12:11 <markd2> http://badgertronics.com/hacks/spork.html
16:12:32 <markd2> unless there's some other magical property I'm unaware of
16:12:46 <MachuPichu> 404...
16:12:48 <MachuPichu> page not found
16:12:59 <MachuPichu> nm
16:13:00 <markd2> http://badgertronics.com/hacks/spork.html
16:13:00 <markd2> try again
16:13:01 <MachuPichu> my mistake
16:13:01 <markd2> it loads for me
16:13:42 <markd2> nochump?
16:14:02 <MachuPichu> aack
16:14:14 <MachuPichu> do I have to escape " in an adp_puts
16:14:32 <MachuPichu> and what about the %?
16:14:37 <markd2> \"
16:14:39 <markd2> or use single quotes
16:14:49 <markd2> I use single quotes - much simpler than escaping
16:15:15 <MachuPichu> eh
16:15:22 <MachuPichu> it was only 12 things to escape
16:18:15 <MachuPichu> how can I stick one big cell over the thing
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16:29:13 <markd2> hello
16:29:41 <vinod> hey markd2!
16:29:47 <MachuPichu> * MachuPichu pokes vinod with a markd2 
16:30:35 <vinod> hey MachuPichu - what have you done with sporkiephylax?
16:30:48 <MachuPichu> I have sent him to the river to get cleaned
16:31:32 <markd2> heh
16:36:50 <MachuPichu> heh
16:36:55 <MachuPichu> Vinod, guess what
16:37:12 <MachuPichu> I was really lying when I told you that Sporkiephylax went to the river
16:40:18 <vinod> * vinod waits with bated breath to hear the true story of the demise of psycephyspork
16:40:38 <MachuPichu> He's on a job interview with Lehman brothers
16:40:46 <MachuPichu> if he can ever sign up 
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16:58:20 <MachuPichu> shweeet
17:05:03 <vinod> vinod (~vinod@216-164-247-92.s2314.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com) has joined #openacs
17:08:08 <MachuPichu> hi vinod 
17:12:01 <MachuPichu> Mark?
17:12:56 <markd2> hi
17:14:16 <MachuPichu> hello
17:14:32 <MachuPichu> the db_null procedure in the API leads me to believe it does not work
17:14:46 <MachuPichu> "This routine was invented to provide an
17:14:47 <MachuPichu>       RDBMS-specific null value but doesn't actually work."
17:14:59 <MachuPichu> I'm trying to do this
17:14:59 <markd2> yeah.  it doesn't work
17:15:25 <MachuPichu> I have a comment box which I set to default to "Input an optional description"
17:15:55 <MachuPichu> In the tcl page I'm trying to check to see if that is the text in the box, and if it is, I want to set description to null
17:16:03 <MachuPichu> otherwise, I use whatever is entered
17:16:14 <markd2> oracle has a nice (?) side effect, in that empty strings are treated as null
17:16:19 <MachuPichu> ok
17:16:29 <MachuPichu> so if I set description to "" it should work?
17:16:41 <markd2> yeah
17:16:51 <MachuPichu> if {$description = "Input an optional description} { 
17:16:51 <MachuPichu> set description "" 
17:16:51 <MachuPichu> } 
17:16:55 <MachuPichu> ok coolness
17:18:56 <MachuPichu> hmmm
17:19:01 <MachuPichu> it doesn't like my $description
17:19:26 <markd2> are you using one equals sign?
17:19:37 <MachuPichu> * MachuPichu nods
17:19:43 <markd2> why?  the comparison operator is two.  ==
17:19:45 <markd2> just like java
17:19:50 <MachuPichu> damn it!
17:20:06 <MachuPichu> C, C++, Java, TCL make it all backwards!!!
17:20:18 <markd2> get used to it
17:20:44 <MachuPichu> heh
17:23:12 <MachuPichu> I know there's a way to edit queries
17:23:18 <MachuPichu> in sqlplus
17:23:41 <markd2> run a shell in emacs - you can use all the nifty emacs stuff there
17:23:50 <markd2> otherwise it's just subtitution
17:23:50 <markd2> c/oldstring/newstring
17:23:57 <markd2> c for change
17:24:00 <markd2> c for cookie!
17:24:07 <MachuPichu> hehehehe
17:24:34 <MachuPichu> C is for cookie, that's good enough for me!
17:28:08 <MachuPichu> is there a way to show the last query?
17:28:13 <MachuPichu> like "history" in *nix?
17:28:36 <markd2> L
17:28:36 <markd2> L is for list
17:28:52 <MachuPichu> shweeeet!
17:28:54 <markd2> and to execute that query,, do
17:28:54 <markd2>   /
17:28:57 <markd2> just a slash
17:29:06 <markd2>    / is for slashie, and that's good enough for me
17:29:33 <MachuPichu> excellent
17:29:39 <MachuPichu> rofl
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17:47:55 <MachuPichu> hmmm
17:52:10 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  We're aware that our routing has problems.  We're awaiting a patch we hope will arrive in the next 8 hours to resolve the link counting problem.  Thanks in advance for your patience. *Sighrin*
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18:00:52 <ChanServ> [#openacs] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
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18:02:50 <MachuPichu> ooooorgle!
18:02:50 <davb> hmm wher _is_ chump...
18:02:52 <davb> ack... the whole box appears unresponsive...
18:03:01 <lilo> [ServerNotice] Hi all.  The server you are on will probably a bit unstable for a while and is being removed from the rotation for now.  You might want to try reconnecting
18:03:01 <lilo> [ServerNotice] Hi all.  The server you are on will probably a bit unstable for a while and is being removed from the rotation for now.  You might want to try reconnecting
18:03:01 <davb> weird it lost its DHCP settings...
18:03:30 <lilo> [ServerNotice] Hi all.  The server you are on will probably a bit unstable for a while and is being removed from the rotation for now.  You might want to try reconnecting.
18:03:30 <chump> chump (~chump@alb-66-24-204-217.nycap.rr.com) has joined #openacs
18:03:30 <davb> aha
18:03:32 <davb> really weird.
18:03:47 <donb> donb (~donb@dsl-dhogaza.pacifier.net) has joined #openacs
18:06:28 <donb> Anyone around?
18:06:36 <markd2> yep
18:07:18 <davb> hi
18:08:15 <donb> Neophytos sez you're helping with Oracle/workflow?
18:09:16 <davb> Yes, I tested it a little. I haven't been able to look into whats wrong with it though.
18:09:47 <markd2> markd2 has quit ("Bork")
18:11:30 <donb> OK ... I'm personally planning to work on finishing up the ETP/Oracle port and then want to roll a new tarball for folks (there have been a *lot* of fixes, including your static pages stuff which seems to work fine in my testing)
18:12:24 <donb> After that I want to dive into performance issues, so if you and Neophytos can get the Oracle workflow stuff working (or find others to pitch in if you don't have time) we can get it into a beta release (two weeks from Monday, maybe, hope hope hope?)
18:14:27 <davb> Sure. Next week I plan on looking into the errors I am getting in workflow. Either that or leave it running at night and let neophytos login to the machine to check it out.
18:14:37 <k2pts> k2pts (~nkd@adsl-168-174.cytanet.com.cy) has joined #openacs
18:14:39 <k2pts> hi guys
18:14:54 <davb> hello
18:14:54 <k2pts> don -- i'm starting on the upgrade script right now.
18:15:29 <k2pts> hi dave
18:15:35 <davb> hi
18:16:09 <donb> OK, that sounds good Dave (and Neophytos that sounds good, too - how's your cold?)
18:16:27 <k2pts> i'm feeling a lot better
18:16:51 <k2pts> actually, that's why I have some time today (I didn't have to prepare for my research meeting). thank you for asking
18:17:14 <donb> I'm sitting here staring at 768M of PC133 ECC RAM that arrived yesterday.  $79.  Oh boy!
18:17:27 <davb> great!
18:17:33 <k2pts> any links?
18:17:55 <donb> I bought it from Crucial if that's your question (free 2nd-day FedEx shipping here in the US)
18:18:20 <k2pts> btw, I had trouble with credit card verification the past month (with amazon). very strange since I'm using the same credit card as I've always been and it has more money than ever :)
18:18:33 <the_docwolf> crucial rocks.  it's a great example of mail order gone right.
18:18:33 <k2pts> donb: yes, thanx
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18:19:05 <donb> k2pts - someone's database was probably down for a bit.  
18:19:52 <k2pts> donb - do you mean amazon?
18:19:56 <donb> Yeah, ordering off the Crucial website was a very pleasant experience. 
18:20:40 <donb> k2pts - I don't know who amazon uses for authentication, but that service could've been down or the credit card authentication server could've been down ...
18:20:51 <donb> Or network communication or ... 
18:21:15 <k2pts> ah, ok. it's probably the ccvs here in cyprus (a monopoly or better a confederation of the banks)
18:21:32 <donb> Probably BSOD'd :)
18:22:58 <donb> So what do folks think we need for a beta, assuming this next tarball I put together survives testing reasonably well? (things are looking pretty solid)
18:23:35 <donb> I'm thinking: new acs-workflow, search tied into intermedia, some improvements in performance, documentation and of course bug fixes.
18:23:54 <donb> That's a fair amount of work, actually ...
18:24:07 <k2pts> donb: sounds good. I think we should have some kind of disclaimer for the first release
18:24:19 <k2pts> for some packages. 
18:24:23 <donb> I've been writing various disclaimers in my mind for weeks :)
18:24:33 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  Things seem to be a bit more stable, but let us know if you are having any unusual problems accessing the servers at this point.  Thanks.
18:25:01 <k2pts> we don't want to restrict ourselves in improving some packages with upgrades
18:25:31 <k2pts> some packages are actually not usable
18:25:59 <donb> What we may do is just fork them - "old-fubar" vs. "fubar" - if we make such extensive changes that an upgrade isn't practical.  Then folks who are already using an old package could continue to fix bugs, etc...
18:26:14 <k2pts> sounds good to me
18:26:26 <donb> Right - folks will hack them into usable shape out of necessity but if they fix bugs in the process we might as well collect them...
18:26:43 <k2pts> donb: you 've been working on the glossary package right.
18:26:46 <k2pts> ?
18:27:18 <donb> I've *ported* it I haven't put work into fixing its deficiencies (other than making admin a parent priv of glossary_admin)
18:28:04 <k2pts> yes that's what I'm asking: do you know why the "Short Name for URL (no spaces)" is needed for? I think it's not being used and it breaks the whole thing
18:28:31 <donb> That just happens to be the main deficiency that's in my mind ...
18:28:39 <k2pts> ok
18:28:57 <k2pts> i'm going to test package specific search with the news package.
18:29:29 <donb> Before we digress ...
18:29:36 <k2pts> digress?
18:29:48 <donb> I'm not done with talking about names/URLs ...
18:30:06 <k2pts> ok
18:30:25 <donb> This is an example of too-close coupling of the CMS and CR.  content items in folders should, of course, have names and those names should be unique within the folder, no argument there ...
18:31:11 <donb> But you can also create content items with non-folder parents, i.e. that aren't part of a "psuedo-filesystem".  You shoudn't need to give a name at all for such items, as you find them via your (packages) knowledge of the object tree it is building...
18:31:55 <donb> Some packages get around the problem by making an artificial name that is unique because it contains the object_id as part of the string.  Walter, in glossary, choose to ask the user for a "URL name" ...
18:32:09 <donb> Not really the best decision, but the fundamental flaw is in the CR.
18:32:17 <donb> Make sense?
18:32:21 <k2pts> yes
18:32:29 <donb> Second release cycle :)
18:32:41 <k2pts> sure
18:32:48 <k2pts> i have a porting question
18:33:07 <donb> Ask and you shall receive ... something ... maybe an answer, if you're lucky!
18:33:30 <k2pts> i have an alter drop constraint.
18:33:42 <donb> Tough luck :(
18:33:55 <k2pts> pgsql docs say that I have to drop the table and recreate. is this the only way
18:34:11 <k2pts> 7.1.3 docs
18:34:15 <donb> At the moment PG only allows the adding and dropping of "check" constraints.
18:34:47 <k2pts> it's a fk
18:35:07 <donb> You can also sneak around and drop referential integrity triggers ... yep, just as I suspected, an fk!
18:35:25 <donb> Do you control the fk constraint?  PG does support deferrable RI constraints.
18:35:42 <k2pts> what do you mean by "control"
18:36:05 <donb> Is it defined in your package or do you need to drop constraints in other packages...
18:36:20 <k2pts> i control it
18:36:59 <donb> Why do you need to drop it? (ETP kills RI checks on one table because of the "triggered data change violation" problem, which is going away but not until PG 7.3 unfortunately)
18:37:14 <k2pts> i'm porting the upgrade script of the wf package
18:37:50 <k2pts> alter table wf_context_transition_info 
18:37:50 <k2pts>   drop constraint wf_context_trans_context_fk;
18:37:50 <k2pts> alter table wf_context_transition_info 
18:37:50 <k2pts>   add constraint wf_context_trans_context_fk
18:37:50 <k2pts>   foreign key (context_key) references wf_contexts (context_key);
18:38:00 <donb> I see ... copying the table back-and-forth is messy but is an OK solution for this.  It only needs to be run once so concurrency and performance concerns aren't a big deal.
18:38:26 <k2pts> no problem with performance. just asking whether this was added to PG
18:38:34 <k2pts> and it's not in the docs
18:38:59 <donb> Hmmm...I don't *think* it exists in PG at the moment but it might, RI constraints and ALTER were being looked at by Stephen Szabo at one point.  Try it, I guess ...
18:39:19 <k2pts> also some of them are combined :) alter table wf_context_assignments add (
18:39:19 <k2pts>   role_key			   varchar(100),
18:39:19 <k2pts>   constraint wf_context_assign_role_fk
18:39:19 <k2pts>     foreign key (workflow_key, role_key) references wf_roles (workflow_key, role_key)
18:39:20 <k2pts>     on delete cascade
18:39:20 <k2pts> );
18:39:21 <donb> Don't you wish I were still working on PG RI constraint issues instead of OpenACS 4? :)
18:39:32 <k2pts> right now i am
18:39:34 <k2pts> :)
18:39:55 <donb> I'd like to get back into PG internals ... maybe someday.
18:40:25 <k2pts> lars did a good job with the 4.3 version and John Sequeira helped a lot with testing
18:40:45 <donb> Lars is a good hacker, no doubt of that ...
18:41:38 <k2pts> I'll contact him if he had done any scalability testing (talli told me he was on vacation)
18:41:59 <k2pts> when he's back
18:42:31 <donb> I don't expect workflow to be a big bottleneck because it most often is used during content creation by some package or another.  Which is a much more rare event than (say) hitting the "forums" link on the front page of a site.
18:43:06 <k2pts> I was thinking that it could also be used in some other cases (like forum moderation, user approval,...)
18:43:19 <k2pts> but I want to know what the performance cost will be
18:43:56 <davb> aha, I have found the offending query for one of the workflow errors.
18:44:12 <davb> ah, there are TWO queries with the same name...
18:44:12 <donb> Sure content creation and management, still not that common compared to checking perms for reading, etc.
18:44:24 <k2pts> davb: send it by email. I'll work on the oracle version once I'm done with the upgrade script
18:44:38 <k2pts> that's an issue with the query extractor
18:44:48 <davb> ok. Want a patch? its just a one-liner.
18:45:00 <donb> Oh, damn, I *hate* that - the query extractor actually mentions that in its warning or error file, people need to remember to look (I always forget myself and get annoyed when I find two with the same name)
18:45:14 <k2pts> davb:just the name of the query the file
18:45:21 <davb> ok
18:45:22 <donb> Hmmm...I think the QE mentions it in one of its files, maybe I'm wrong.
18:45:41 <k2pts> donb: found them in the PG version. it's a rare event but it still occurs. It replaces all queries with the first one
18:45:46 <k2pts> with the same name
18:46:18 <donb> Right but I think it tells you in one of the report files that it found a dupe.  It would be nice if it didn't destroy the second query, of course ...
18:46:18 <markd2> markd2 has quit ("running to postoffice")
18:46:54 <k2pts> to be honest: I didn't check. I found out about it the hard way
18:47:09 <donb> Well, as I mentioned above I always forget to check ...
18:47:57 <davb> I never checked. I was going through the whole thing because one of the queries was missing and I just happened to notice.
18:48:20 <AaronSw> * AaronSw reconnects
18:48:27 <davb> btw, I love the reload package link!
18:48:34 <k2pts> donb: some questions for object-display and community-member.tcl. have time?
18:48:56 <donb> Sure ... I can hang out for about ten minutes more ...
18:48:59 <davb> k2pts: it works now on my copy.
18:49:12 <k2pts> davb: great want to send me the file
18:49:13 <donb> community-member sucks bigtime at the moment.
18:49:31 <k2pts> donb: as you know I have given this some thought,...
18:49:37 <donb> Right ...
18:49:48 <davb> k2pts: ok.
18:49:53 <k2pts> i'm worrying about the performance of calling a datasource operation for each object
18:50:33 <donb> I've been thinking that community-member should call each *package* for summaries of contributions (bboard posts, wimpy point presentations, etc)...
18:51:03 <k2pts> so I suggest we have the community-member page show the last 10 objects that the user created and also show some links for more details...donb right
18:51:16 <donb> The user really only needs a high-level view.  They don't need to know each attachment a user has tacked onto each slide of each presentation - just the presentations!
18:51:35 <k2pts> yes, that could be restricted using the bindings
18:51:47 <donb> That doesn't mean we don't want an object-display facility, though ... packages might want to use that route to build their display in some cases, for instance.
18:52:27 <donb> Yeah, we could use restrictions as you mention, but most packages can really do a prettier job of building a display if it has full control...
18:53:09 <k2pts> donb: sure, that depends only on the way we are going to rewrite the community-member.tcl pages
18:54:09 <donb> Currently the community-member page really does expose each and every object built by (say) wimpy point...yeah I'm suggesting we provide an object-display and package-level display as well.  community-member doesn't really need object-level detail but it would be useful elsewhere I'm sure.
18:54:10 <k2pts> currently, it's object-oriented. if i understand well what you say, it's going to be object-group-oriented
18:54:19 <donb> Both ?
18:54:24 <k2pts> great
18:55:27 <donb> Whatever ... community-member sucks.  Maybe this should go on my "must have by beta" list - it's a disgrace as it stands and will cause folks evaluating the toolkit to gag in disgust.
18:55:57 <k2pts> ok, if everything goes well by tomorrow (with wf and search) i might be able to help
18:56:00 <donb> They'll start sending us hate-mail filled with white powder ...
18:56:05 <k2pts> :)
18:56:20 <donb> I can't believe they released the toolkit with that page ...
18:56:41 <donb> (aD that is) it and the perms management page are the two worst individual pages in the toolkit.
18:57:01 <k2pts> here's a story about the powder: one of the students that we graduated together...
18:57:48 <k2pts> prepare an exam for her high school students and asked them to write differences between email and traditional mail. One of them answered that by email they can send you a virus
18:58:29 <k2pts> they are completely clueless: she asked them to close the windows [on their display] before leaving the class and one of them closed the window of the room
18:58:45 <donb> That's is *funny*!
18:59:35 <donb> OK ... I need to leave now ... good chat, sounds like you guys are getting a lot done ...
19:00:13 <donb> Hopefully I'll finish ETP/Oracle today then can wrap a new tarball for release (finally, sheesh)
19:00:13 <vinod> vinod has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:00:16 <k2pts> later, donb
19:00:21 <donb> donb has quit ("changing universes")
19:00:38 <k2pts> later, guys, i'm leaving too. davb: i'll email you later
19:00:41 <davb> Ok
19:00:43 <k2pts> k2pts has left #openacs
19:02:11 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  Just a note.  Please help us test the new channel forwarding features.  To do so, join #forwardfrom.  You should be sent to #forwardto.  If your client crashes, if you don't get the proper window presence or focus, or can't type into the channel, let us know.  support@openprojects.net.  Thanks.
19:03:43 <davb> aha.
19:07:17 <davb> If a pl/sql function has a param and it doesn't have a default is it _required_?
19:08:56 <hazmat> hazmat (~chatzilla@66.123.57.58) has joined #openacs
19:09:46 <davb> hi hazmat
19:09:54 <hazmat> hi davb
19:10:27 <hazmat> davb, have you setup ns_openssl before?
19:11:19 <davb> sorry, no.
19:12:13 <davb> hazmat: do you know if  a pl/sql function has a param and it doesn't have a default is it _required_ in oracle?
19:12:41 <markd2> markd2 (~markd2@r-41.36.alltel.net) has joined #openacs
19:15:01 <hazmat> davb, i believe so all parameters of type IN without defaults are required.
19:16:04 <davb> thanks
19:16:44 <davb> anyone know anything about workflow? i.e. what is a valid "direction" for a transition
19:17:29 <hazmat> a transition moves from one state to another state, the direction goes names the start and end states (also called places in the workflow package)
19:17:40 <davb> ok.
19:17:48 <hazmat> s/goes/
19:18:03 <davb> I am a little confused. There are multiple pl/sql procedures with the same name.
19:18:05 <hazmat> are you using the workflow builder or hand writing it?
19:18:30 <davb> I used the wizard. Its broken in oracle so I am trying to fix it. the new workflow.
19:18:43 <hazmat> ah...
19:19:35 <davb> can oracle have overloaded functions like PG?
19:21:14 <markd2> like same name, diffrent signature?
19:21:18 <davb> yes.
19:21:28 <markd2> yep.  urkle does tahat
19:21:39 <davb> ?
19:22:00 <davb> ok. It seems to be picking up the wrong one causing the wrong 
19:22:45 <davb> anyway the way it is used is really wacky. doesn't seem necessary at all.
19:24:54 <davb>  but there is a very good chance i am wrong :)
19:28:39 <davb> stupid oracle question, is there a way to see what functions/procedures are defined for a name?
19:28:47 <davb> ie in sql*plus
19:29:41 <markd2> maybe smething frm user_source
19:30:28 <hazmat> describe obj;
19:30:45 <hazmat> hold let me get my oracle beast started.
19:31:02 <davb> thanks. I can look it up... :)
19:31:18 <MachuPichu> hey dave
19:32:20 <davb> Hi nick
19:32:27 <davb> :)
19:32:48 <MachuPichu> :)
19:33:20 <MachuPichu> Dave, you said you had dynamic forms ?
19:33:35 <davb> I don't think i did :)
19:33:51 <MachuPichu> Dynamic dropdowns?
19:36:56 <davb> aha.
19:37:02 <davb> * davb thinks....
19:39:03 <davb> I used a <multiple> I think with a <select> tag for each one. There is a special template:: prco to build a dropdown also.
19:40:19 <MachuPichu> hmm?
19:41:14 <davb> I created a multiple row variable in the TCL file, then did the HTML inside the <multiple> in the ADP file.
19:42:07 <MachuPichu> hang on
19:42:26 <davb> ok.
19:44:15 <MachuPichu> had to send an e-mail to my friend so she can sign me up for an interview with Lehman brothers
19:44:23 <MachuPichu> ok
19:44:28 <MachuPichu> this is what I have to do
19:44:43 <MachuPichu> I'm gonna have to create a new table
19:44:46 <MachuPichu> wait
19:44:46 <MachuPichu> I have one
19:45:12 <davb> cool.
19:45:23 <davb> of the selection choices?
19:45:36 <davb> so like this I think
19:45:47 <MachuPichu> what's the use of LIKE
19:46:02 <davb> To select things that are LIKE something else :) 
19:46:02 <MachuPichu> is it where table_name like %B ?
19:46:34 <davb> yes..... 
19:47:18 <davb> select name from address_book where address like '%main stree' 
19:47:26 <davb> or something like that. 
19:49:34 <MachuPichu> ok
19:50:01 <MachuPichu> I have a table "incident_map" that maps integers to descriptions
19:50:05 <MachuPichu> like 1 = New Call
19:50:09 <MachuPichu> 2 = Firmware check
19:50:10 <MachuPichu> ..etc
19:50:31 <MachuPichu> so
19:50:44 <MachuPichu> I want to be able to add/hide reasons
19:51:30 <davb> ok... depending on permissions?
19:51:45 <MachuPichu> no
19:51:57 <MachuPichu> just to be able to hide, remove for now
19:52:14 <davb> add a column hidden
19:52:14 <MachuPichu> like say you have 1 and 2 like above
19:52:47 <MachuPichu> then, a car knocks down a pole in Atlanta and takes out the whole internet in New York
19:53:00 <davb> ok...
19:53:11 <MachuPichu> So I want authorized users to be able to add "Atlanta car accident" as a reason #3
19:53:37 <davb> * davb had disconnected from IRC ( a car knocks down a pole in Atlanta and takes out the whole internet in New York)
19:53:41 <MachuPichu> Then, when a technician goes to run the tool, Atlanta car accident will appear in the dropdown list
19:53:50 <davb> Ok.
19:54:08 <davb> and then later turn them off. so they are not selectable.
19:54:22 <davb> yeah you need a "incident_status" column.
19:54:23 <MachuPichu> Right
19:54:35 <MachuPichu> right
19:55:08 <davb> Ok, so you just query for the valid results and make the list.
19:56:59 <MachuPichu> yep
19:57:36 <davb> I will look for the code I used, but I have to do it later :)
19:57:42 <MachuPichu> ok
19:57:52 <MachuPichu> I'll probably do that after vacation
20:00:31 <donb> donb (~donb@dsl-dhogaza.pacifier.net) has joined #openacs
20:00:48 <donb> Anyone here interested in LDAP?
20:01:06 <MachuPichu> I'm interested in caffeine
20:01:17 <MachuPichu> DOes that count?
20:01:53 <donb> Nope, this is a serious question.  Caffeine's serious, too, and I intend to go off an enjoy some in about an hour...
20:02:10 <MachuPichu> humph...I wish I had some right now
20:02:17 <markd2> * markd2 has pretty much cut out caffiene
20:02:32 <markd2> I just apply it when I need the drug
20:02:36 <donb> I'm asking because someone e-mailed me a tarball of an ns_ldap AOLserver module that they thought we (OpenACS) might e interested in.
20:02:53 <markd2> cool
20:02:57 <MachuPichu> yes
20:02:58 <MachuPichu> very cool
20:03:03 <MachuPichu> I might need ldap later
20:03:32 <donb> Some I'm looking for someone who might be willing to take a look, try it out, etc so I can give the guy some feedback.
20:03:34 <MachuPichu> Mark, how do I set up a 2 value domain in oracle?
20:03:41 <markd2> what's a 2 value domain?
20:03:45 <MachuPichu> t or f
20:03:59 <donb> In Postgres we just say "boolean"...
20:04:06 <MachuPichu> heh
20:04:10 <markd2> search through the ACS sql files for columns that end in _p
20:04:16 <markd2> you use a char(1) and a check constraint
20:06:29 <jerryasher> jerryasher (~jerry-opn@adsl-209-233-238-162.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #openacs
20:06:38 <MachuPichu> hi jerry
20:06:51 <jerryasher> Hi!
20:07:15 <MachuPichu> I solved that router problem =)
20:07:17 <donb> Maybe Jerry would be interested in testing ths ns_ldap module ...
20:07:18 <MachuPichu> not efficient
20:07:23 <MachuPichu> but it works
20:07:54 <jerryasher> I would be happy to take a look at it, what do I need? (I don't have an ldap server handy...)
20:08:32 <MachuPichu> how do I tell grep to recurse?
20:09:14 <jerryasher> -r will have it travel down directories
20:09:18 <donb> There is some sort of OpenLDAP available I think but I don't know anything about it ... someone e-mailed me a tarball of what purports to be a first cut at an ns_ldap module for AOLserver.  He thought we (OpenACS) might want it.  It needs documentation and testing, he sez ...
20:10:02 <donb> I'm looking for a volunteer to do an evaluation, so we can at least get an idea if there's any hope of it's being well-down and easily integratable into OpenACS 4.
20:10:48 <jerryasher> Forward me the email, and I will take a look and see what it takes to do more....
20:11:01 <markd2> spork: you can also use find
20:11:23 <markd2> find /web/spork -name "*.tcl" -exec grep urgle {} \; -print
20:11:35 <jerryasher> Look, I know you guys are busy at the moment, but can anyone identify this building? http://www.theashergroup.com/junk/building.jpg
20:12:11 <markd2> never seen it before
20:12:26 <donb> OK, I appreciate it...on another subject, have you guys figured out what you want in the way of an ACS 3.4 tree on openacs.org, who should own it, etc?
20:12:35 <markd2> looks vaguely mosquish
20:12:38 <donb> I've never seen it before either, Jerry ...
20:13:01 <jerryasher> No, you haven't seen it, but what does it remind you of?  I hear mosque, what else?
20:13:37 <markd2> the three archways seem to imply something Xtian
20:13:55 <jerryasher> Don, I am not really involved in the ACS 3.4 project (at this point), so I'm going to defer.
20:14:29 <jerryasher> Oh man, I guess I'm just too much of a suburbanite.
20:14:40 <jerryasher> Clearly, it's the Kandahar Circuit City: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1632000/1632925.stm
20:14:50 <jerryasher> Or the future home....
20:15:24 <donb> OK ... this came up in the general "archive ad.com" discussion (as well as alone, of course) ... are you still thinking about archiving content from ad.com?  Just curious ... 
20:16:06 <jerryasher> Yes, in fact, I was just carving up my weekend with the intent to get started.  It's really not clear how much longer aD is going to be serving those pages up.
20:16:31 <jerryasher> I'm going to start on the ASJ and downloads and move on to the bboard....
20:17:03 <donb> Good ...
20:17:20 <donb> It's a domed mausoleum, that's what it (the building) is!
20:17:37 <donb> Popular tourist destination!
20:18:03 <jerryasher> Well, domed mausoleum and tourist destination sounds like a description of Circuit City too.
20:18:10 <markd2> heh
20:18:44 <hazmat> donb: i'm interested in ldap
20:19:45 <donb> Do you want a copy of this, too?  Maybe you and Jerry could compare notes ... Jerry knows AOLserver internals so I'll be interested in his thoughts as to how well it's integrated with AOLserver...
20:21:10 <donb> I hate Circuit City ... if I were in charge I'd demand a Fry's with my McDonald's (you know they're going to get stuck with McDonald's as part of any negotiated settlement...)
20:22:37 <hazmat> ok. i'm looking over acs-ldap now.
20:23:27 <talli> talli (~talli@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #openacs
20:23:42 <talli> hey guys
20:23:51 <jerryasher> When I travel out of the country (not as much as I would like), I've been struck with how much KFC is copied in the most out of the way places.
20:24:41 <jerryasher> Anyway, I would certainly better at analzying ldap wrt AOLserver internals 
20:24:41 <jerryasher> than ldap wrt ACS 4.
20:26:37 <donb> acs-ldap's really simple, Kapil ... you need to replace your login pages to use it.   I'd rather have it be more seamless (i.e. have the login pages check ldap if it's been set up)
20:26:40 <hazmat> cool, i think i can handle the ldap wrt acs4
20:28:52 <donb> What's your favorite e-mail address du jour, Kapil?
20:29:51 <hazmat> kvthan@wm.edu
20:29:58 <hazmat> for large files anyways
20:30:55 <donb> OK I've sent it off to both of you, let me know if you don't get it soon.
20:32:49 <jerryasher> Ack.
20:33:05 <hazmat> it looks like the acs-ldap is only for logins, ie permission info is still kept in the db.
20:33:15 <donb> Yes ... 
20:33:59 <donb> It's very basic ... it's meant as an integration tool, not as a full-blown replacement for ACS user management.
20:34:51 <donb> We (furfly) have been asked about doing this a couple of times and getting username and password information has been all that the client's been interested in.
20:35:08 <donb> I'm almost certain aD wrote this for a client job ...
20:35:39 <jerryasher> Don, is there any other information that came with it?
20:35:48 <jerryasher> Here's the contents of the readme file
20:35:51 <jerryasher> To be filled in
20:35:52 <jerryasher> .
20:36:09 <donb> Heh ... he did say he hadn't done any documentation, I didn't realize he was that serious :(
20:36:44 <donb> If it looks like there's any promise at all, my thoughts are to send him back a friendly critique and ask if he's willing to finish up ...
20:37:09 <donb> I'll send you guys his e-mail address ...
20:39:03 <jerryasher> okay, I gotta go.
20:39:09 <jerryasher> ballet class for the 4 year old.
20:39:11 <jerryasher> bye.
20:39:21 <jerryasher> jerryasher has quit ()
20:40:37 <hazmat> * hazmat always thinks about doing it in python
20:42:53 <talli> talli has quit ("Peace & Protection 4.00 FINAL BETA")
20:44:23 <hazmat> ack re recieving file
20:47:39 <hazmat> there is some documentation  in the source... argh.. not fun
20:54:35 <MachuPichu> brb
20:54:42 <MachuPichu> pulled out the ps/2 mouse on accident
20:58:53 <MachuPichu> w
20:58:54 <MachuPichu> ack
21:00:07 <loggy> loggy (~openacs-l@205.253.219.118) has joined #openacs
21:00:07 <niven.openprojects.net> topic is: The Nature Channel : eagles can carry much heavier batteries.
21:00:07 <niven.openprojects.net> Users on #openacs: loggy donb markd2 hazmat chump AaronSw andrew davb MachuPichu the_docwolf shagster 
21:00:07 <ChanServ> [#openacs] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
21:04:33 <MachuPichu> hmmm
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21:31:43 <MachuPichu> Mark?
21:32:26 <markd2> hi
21:32:36 <MachuPichu> hello
21:32:41 <MachuPichu> what's wrong with this
21:32:59 <MachuPichu> alter table incident_map create constraint visible_ck check (visible in ('t','f'));
21:35:36 <talli> talli (~talli@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #openacs
21:35:54 <talli> hey guys
21:36:09 <talli> anyone see the slashdot article today about open source leadership?
21:37:14 <markd2> spork: what's the error you're getting?
21:37:20 <markd2> maybe it's 'add constraint'
21:39:09 <MachuPichu> I got it
21:39:13 <MachuPichu> it was add not create
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21:45:51 <MachuPichu> crud!
21:46:16 <MachuPichu> Mark, is there a way to start a sequence from 1?
21:46:21 <MachuPichu> or do they start from 1?
21:49:29 <markd2> new sequences start from 1
21:49:41 <markd2> note that they're not guarnanteed to be compact seuqnces, just monotonically increasing
21:49:49 <MachuPichu> SQL> create sequence problem_number start with 1 increment by 1;
21:50:00 <MachuPichu> Can I make it to be compact?
21:50:04 <markd2> so if you depend on there being no holes in the sequence, you'll need to do your own thing
21:50:17 <MachuPichu> arg
21:51:24 <MachuPichu> so is this doable
21:51:34 <MachuPichu> oh I'm so confused
21:51:39 <MachuPichu> I think I'll put this off for now
21:54:29 <MachuPichu> I guess I don't really need them sequential
21:58:49 <markd2> time to cook
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22:01:55 <MachuPichu> mmmm
22:01:58 <MachuPichu> cooooook-ies
22:13:36 <talli> talli (~talli@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #openacs
22:15:14 <MachuPichu> hi talli
22:15:38 <MachuPichu> How do you like Peace and Protection?
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23:47:54 <the_docwolf> holy biliary colic, batman
23:48:32 <the_docwolf> i shouldn't have had that last slice
23:51:13 <k2pts> k2pts (~nkd@adsl-168-174.cytanet.com.cy) has joined #openacs
23:51:21 <k2pts> hi everybody
23:51:34 <k2pts> donb?
23:51:48 <the_docwolf> howdy
23:52:00 <k2pts> how are you doing docwolf?
23:52:30 <k2pts> is donb online?
23:52:51 <k2pts> davb?
23:53:09 <k2pts> anybody?
23:53:32 <the_docwolf> haven't seen anyone around
23:53:48 <k2pts> i'm done with the upgrade script of the acs-wf package.
23:54:01 <k2pts> that means that we'll have the new version checked in to the CVS soon
23:54:02 <the_docwolf> sweet
23:54:10 <k2pts> as soon as we test the oracle version
23:54:14 <markd2> the_docwolf?  as opposed to a_docwolf?
23:54:25 <the_docwolf> IAMTHEDOCWOLF
23:54:26 <the_docwolf> phear me
23:54:28 <the_docwolf> :-)
23:54:34 <k2pts> noticed the change. thanx markd2
23:54:34 <markd2> markd2 is now known as arbitrary_docwolf
23:54:37 <the_docwolf> I HUNGER
23:54:58 <arbitrary_docwolf> blah blah blah Medical Junket  VCs  markd2 sucks blah blah blah
23:55:02 <arbitrary_docwolf> arbitrary_docwolf is now known as markd2
23:55:14 <the_docwolf> thanks for changing your name back
23:55:17 <markd2> wow.  I didn't kn ow what came over me
23:55:26 <the_docwolf> i felt like there was a whole michael knight/garth thing going on
23:55:38 <markd2> party on Docwolf
23:55:59 <k2pts> did I told you guys that I met prof Papadimitriou (chair of the Berkeley CS department) last weekend?
23:56:13 <the_docwolf> really? what was he like?
23:56:18 <the_docwolf> ... and how did you meet him?
23:56:24 <k2pts> one of the professors I work with introduced me to him. he is a great guy. really...
23:56:39 <k2pts> it was awesome...
23:57:05 <k2pts> he was walking with the chair of the telecommunications authority and high profile guys from the ministry...
23:57:23 <k2pts> and my advisor drag him to meet us. it was awesome...
23:57:47 <k2pts> anyways, he offered to advice us for graduate school and I emailed him...
23:58:33 <the_docwolf> excellent. work those contacts!
23:58:36 <k2pts> with my CV and a photo. he suggested washincton (which is his favorite after berkeley), princeton, ucla
23:58:55 <k2pts> upenn, and ucsd
23:59:10 <hazmat> hazmat (~ender@66.123.57.58) has joined #openacs
23:59:21 <the_docwolf> what? no michigan? the nerve.
23:59:24 <k2pts> he is very friendly guy, really. he recently authored a novel named "Turing"
23:59:29 <k2pts> hey hazmat
23:59:37 <hazmat> hi k2pts