IRC log of openacs on 2001-11-15
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 00:08:36 [Spork]
- bah
- 00:08:44 [docwolf]
- humbug
- 00:08:49 [Spork]
- no kidding
- 00:08:56 [Spork]
- I found out about that palm pilot deal
- 00:08:59 [Spork]
- They're discontinued
- 00:09:17 [docwolf]
- what deal?
- 00:12:00 [Spork]
- the CompUSA one
- 00:20:36 [til]
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- 00:20:46 [farmer.openprojects.net]
- farmer.openprojects.net has changed the topic to: Free Web Toolkit http://openacs.org
- 00:20:56 [ChanServ]
- [#openacs] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
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- 00:22:36 [Spork]
- hmmm
- 00:33:14 [docwolf]
- how much were pilots going for?
- 00:35:21 [Spork]
- I dunno, they're expensiveish
- 00:35:25 [Spork]
- depends on which one you get
- 00:36:20 [docwolf]
- palm really hosed themselves royally.
- 00:36:50 [docwolf]
- it's sad, too. their products are so good, but they just didn't evolve fast enough.
- 00:36:59 [docwolf]
- i'm still using my original Palm Pilot Pro (!)
- 00:37:17 [Spork]
- How do you like it?
- 00:37:18 [docwolf]
- and i'm not going to get rid of it until it dies, most likely.
- 00:37:39 [docwolf]
- 2 annoying things: 1) handwriting recognition isn't as good as later models and 2) it's bulky.
- 00:38:02 [Spork]
- I'm looking for an entry level one I guess
- 00:38:04 [docwolf]
- otherwise, it's fine. I think that's a large part of palm's problem. They didn't try to cram the device full of multimedia nonsense, etc... they just made a reliable filofax.
- 00:38:10 [Spork]
- The Visor Deluxe is 80$
- 00:38:19 [docwolf]
- (a fileofax that can play Dope Wars..)
- 00:38:40 [docwolf]
- wow... i didn't realize the vizor was that cheap.
- 00:38:59 [Spork]
- it's usually not
- 00:39:51 [Spork]
- it's 199$
- 00:39:56 [docwolf]
- actually, you've remided me.. i've got to try to hook my palm up to linux.
- 00:39:56 [Spork]
- -20$ instant rebate
- 00:40:06 [Spork]
- -100$ manufacturer rebate
- 00:40:10 [Spork]
- comes to 80$
- 00:43:16 [docwolf]
- sweet
- 00:43:27 [docwolf]
- it might be worth it, if you need an organizer.
- 00:44:32 [Spork]
- That's what I'm thinking
- 00:44:40 [Spork]
- the downside, it's discontinued
- 00:44:49 [Spork]
- So, I don't know if I should get it or not
- 00:44:57 [Spork]
- I can be a Palm 105v for like 100$
- 00:59:24 [donb]
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- 01:00:04 [Spork]
- hi don
- 01:00:12 [Spork]
- Don must have a handheld
- 01:00:27 [Spork]
- What you use for a palm piloty type gadget
- 01:02:08 [hazmat]
- hazmat (~chatzilla@adsl-66-123-57-58.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net) has joined #openacs
- 01:07:29 [docwolf]
- ugh... why must every app under linux be a baffling ordeal to use?
- 01:07:37 [docwolf]
- (trying to sync Evolution with the palm pilot...)
- 01:08:26 [hazmat]
- try building evolution...
- 01:09:28 [docwolf]
- the thing is they are trying to build an outlook clone, but I get the sense that the folks at ximian don't use outlook very often.
- 01:12:43 [donb]
- How did you get Evolution up on your Mandrake 8.1? Want to install it for me, I'll give you my password! :)
- 01:13:04 [Spork]
- lol
- 01:13:08 [donb]
- I don't own a handheld, actually, Spork.
- 01:13:19 [Spork]
- Don, that's a major security flaw
- 01:13:44 [donb]
- Adam is trustworthy, he's a venture capitalist, after all...
- 01:13:52 [Spork]
- lol
- 01:14:06 [Spork]
- yeah, he's venturing after your capital
- 01:14:29 [donb]
- (phew) I fixed the general permissions bug in the PG version, I can think about rolling an alpha2 release now...
- 01:14:43 [Spork]
- cool
- 01:15:34 [docwolf]
- don: i have the list of libraries that you need. let me dig it up.
- 01:15:39 [donb]
- I've got to finish writing a response to some e-mail, it's important because it's from Andrew Spencer, who with Peter Harper will start hacking on bboard efficiency (it's especially important to me, 'cause I don't want to get into it).
- 01:15:42 [docwolf]
- it's not as awful as it looks.. just a quick mass RPM install.
- 01:15:52 [donb]
- Adam: could you e-mail it to me? dhogaza@pacifier.com
- 01:16:24 [donb]
- Where did you find the up-to-date bonobo RPM?
- 01:16:36 [docwolf]
- yep. must find it first.
- 01:17:01 [donb]
- Maybe this would be easier if I downloaded the actual mandrake production rather than rc1 ISOs and upgraded my system...
- 01:22:08 [docwolf]
- don -- i just sent you the email
- 01:22:16 [docwolf]
- you can get all the up to date stuff at ximian
- 01:22:28 [docwolf]
- you only need like < 10 files total
- 01:22:37 [docwolf]
- throw them all in a directory, and do a mass RPM install.
- 01:22:53 [docwolf]
- if you can figure out how to sync evolution to a palm, i'll give you a medal.
- 01:23:21 [docwolf]
- its lapses in the user interface like that which make me concerned for ximian's future.
- 01:24:14 [docwolf]
- i had a good meeting with them last year, and they have lofty goals. But usability just isn't there yet. Getting close, but....
- 01:27:55 [donb]
- Hmmm...the only bonobo RPM was for 8.0 that was where I hit the wall ...
- 01:28:11 [donb]
- I that the one you used?
- 01:28:18 [docwolf]
- yup.. it seems to work
- 01:28:33 [donb]
- OK duh I should've just tried it I guess ...
- 01:28:56 [donb]
- Does it have decent mailing list support?
- 01:29:15 [docwolf]
- don't know. there's some pretty powerful filtering, from what i understand.
- 01:29:26 [docwolf]
- it looks sort of like a fusion between eudora and outlook
- 01:29:45 [donb]
- If it has nicknames like eudora (where you can specify a list of names) that would be great.
- 01:30:36 [docwolf]
- my big concern again is... from talking with the guys at ximian... is that they don't really use the populars windows clients on a daily basis. These are hardcore unix kids.
- 01:31:26 [docwolf]
- but more power to them if they can come up with a better client.
- 01:32:43 [donb]
- Here's an example of where our open source *nix hackers sometimes seem to be backwards. Old Unix mail had a personal configuration file (.mailrc) that let you say things like "alias my_list adam@farkas.com, rbm@rbm.com" etc etc. Eudora nicknames simply map to - get this - the unix config file. Under the hood they're using the old unix mail code (BSD-licensed variant). Now the GUI e-mail clients for Unix do just about everything but understand the
- 01:33:40 [donb]
- definitions...KMail has no mailing lists, Mozilla forces you to pump them through their address book (I don't *need* full contact info so it shouldn't be such a PITA), sylpheed (really nice otherwise) has no easy way to do this...
- 01:35:55 [docwolf]
- that is interesting -- i didn't realize that. does eudora use unix mboxes, too?
- 01:36:24 [donb]
- Yes, it does, this is why Kmail, sylpheed, and Mozilla can import them (or in some cases trick them)
- 01:37:02 [docwolf]
- hmm.. so maybe actually importing all my years of mail into evolution won't be too painful (?!)
- 01:37:48 [donb]
- If they haven't made this simple-tout-suite let's just shoot them and be done with it ...
- 01:38:06 [docwolf]
- haha
- 01:39:13 [docwolf]
- well, it was one year ago (almost to the day) that I met with nat friedman at helix code/ximian.
- 01:39:30 [docwolf]
- and we spoke about what they were trying to do/how much money they just got....
- 01:39:52 [docwolf]
- one year later, the question is: how much closer are they to building a viable alternative?
- 01:41:49 [donb]
- I think they've gotten a hell of a lot of work done, frankly. I'm impressed just looking at the screenshots. Of course, they're using Galeon/Gecko (i.e. poaching Mozilla's) rendering engine which is why their screenshots of mail look Mozilla-ish.
- 01:42:00 [Spork]
- I just love when windows randomly crashes
- 01:42:22 [donb]
- It's not random. It's only the amount of time between crashes that's random ...
- 01:42:26 [docwolf]
- haha
- 01:42:53 [docwolf]
- i agree, don, they've gotten a lot of code under their belt. I question the wisdom of continuing the gnome vs. KDE fight, when the focus really should be on good end-user apps
- 01:43:14 [Spork]
- oh
- 01:43:15 [Spork]
- heh
- 01:43:21 [docwolf]
- it seems like the two factions can't have a rational discussion about it.
- 01:43:22 [Spork]
- brb
- 01:43:39 [donb]
- The two factions?
- 01:44:01 [docwolf]
- gnome vs. kde
- 01:44:14 [docwolf]
- (whatever they call the two groups -- gnome foundation/kde justice league, etc..)
- 01:45:11 [donb]
- Oh ... yeah. Well, the kde people definitely have a reasonable basis for being annoyed at the Gnome folks. And I like kde a lot and they're building up steam. Fortunately now that things play well together I don't care much, I'll use gtk/bonobo stuff under kde if I like it.
- 01:48:03 [docwolf]
- heh. I find KDE to be more reliable. gnome is interesting though. But if only the helix guys could have really focused on getting evolution & red carpet to 100% of the time...
- 01:49:38 [hazmat]
- but if you were interested in building a desktop application would you rather build it with the gnome libraries or the kde/qt libs....
- 01:51:01 [markd2]
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- 01:52:09 [donb]
- Me? probably qt for portability ... flog my app like a whore for windows and give it away for linux.
- 01:52:27 [markd2]
- talk dirty to me
- 01:53:01 [donb]
- Philip. Winnebego. NY Times. Dirty enough?
- 01:54:08 [donb]
- Actually, kapil, I've not dug into the guts of either Qt or gtk. I'm not a big C++ fan (too many years working on C++ compiler guts).
- 01:55:04 [donb]
- But C++, written well, can be very readable ("written well" - resist the urge to use every damn feature in the language, speaking of whores, Bjorne just took whatever people tosse his way and stuck it in) (the language, that is!)
- 01:57:32 [donb]
- Adam - got your note. One of my problems was that I was building evolution from source, which led me down the real garden path of needing sources (devel packages) as well as binaries. I wanted to poke around the code, but I can do that even though I install from binaries. Your list is a lot shorter than the list I was coming up with ...
- 02:04:58 [donb]
- OK, I'm taking off. Cool, Andrew Spencer's mailing Peter Harper and me a dump of 70,000 forum posts and auxillary infrastructure data so we can all start doing performance hacking on bboard...
- 02:05:22 [donb]
- Should be interesting...hope it doesn't turn out depressing.
- 02:05:30 [donb]
- See y'all later.
- 02:05:35 [donb]
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- [#openacs] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
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- [#openacs] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
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- welcome to the aaronsw revolving door channel
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- 09:20:58 [sagan.openprojects.net]
- topic is: Free Web Toolkit http://openacs.org
- 09:20:58 [sagan.openprojects.net]
- Users on #openacs: loggy chump shagster Spork hazmat AaronSw docwolf
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- [#openacs] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
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- 11:51:56 [lilo]
- [GlobalNotice] Hi all. Brief rehubbing.
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- 12:28:08 [lilo]
- [GlobalNotice] Hi all. We will probably be experiencing routing problems for the next couple of days. We're working on the problem. Thanks.
- 13:17:10 [markd2]
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- 13:46:29 [lilo]
- [GlobalNotice] Hi all. If you are interested in taking a look at the CVS code on http://sourceforge.net/projects/openprojects/, we invite you to look for problems with the link counting code. As far as I know, we never modified it, and it's dropping link counts by Y line class. A usable patch could help get our routing back in shape a bit quicker. :)
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- 14:21:20 [Spork]
- mmmm
- 14:21:26 [Spork]
- skipping class
- 14:24:32 [markd2]
- did you find out how we did on the project?
- 14:24:40 [Spork]
- no not yet
- 14:24:43 [Spork]
- Maybe later today
- 14:24:53 [Spork]
- Or after thanksgiving
- 14:26:09 [Spork]
- hmmmm\
- 14:26:15 [Spork]
- 2 hours of cellular minutes left
- 14:29:44 [markd2]
- hey - if you were going to buy a 1U intel box for eventual colocation ,what would you get?
- 14:29:55 [markd2]
- for linux / postgrease / openacs, etc
- 14:29:55 [Spork]
- what would I get?
- 14:30:02 [markd2]
- yeah. manufacturer
- 14:30:16 [Spork]
- hehehehehe
- 14:30:21 [Spork]
- I'd build my own =)
- 14:30:28 [Spork]
- unless you have a budget here
- 14:31:37 [markd2]
- pretend there is a budget (this is for a friend of mine)
- 14:31:43 [Spork]
- doh
- 14:31:54 [docwolf]
- docwolf has quit ("KVIrc 2.1.1 'Monolith'")
- 14:31:54 [markd2]
- imagine great fountains of money
- 14:31:55 [Spork]
- I think dell makes decent 1u machines
- 14:32:06 [Spork]
- oh, if there's money
- 14:32:25 [Spork]
- then I'd build an Athlon MP setup with a Tyan Thunder
- 14:38:24 [markd2]
- thanks
- 14:43:42 [Spork]
- yeah it's expensive
- 14:43:51 [Spork]
- but it kicks the crap out of any intel based solution :)
- 14:44:23 [Spork]
- Let's just say, it's more expensive than intel, but less than Sun or any other non-WinTel box you can get
- 14:49:27 [AaronSw]
- * AaronSw reconnects
- 14:59:37 [lilo]
- [GlobalNotice] Hi all. This is a repeat message for those of you in different timezones. OPN expects some routing issues due to a server problem with bad link counting by Y line class. We hope to have it resolved within a day or so. You can help by taking a look at the CVS, project 'openprojects' on sourceforge. Thanks.
- 15:05:25 [til]
- til (tils@port-212-202-128-208.reverse.qsc.de) has joined #openacs
- 16:23:40 [Spork]
- hehehe
- 16:23:44 [Spork]
- not going to class rules
- 16:23:44 [Spork]
- :-D
- 16:30:32 [markd2]
- which class?
- 16:32:11 [Spork]
- Software Engineering
- 16:32:25 [Spork]
- but we had a guest lecturer from Computer Associates
- 16:32:34 [Spork]
- So I decided not to go because i hate CA
- 16:32:50 [markd2]
- bummer
- 16:35:16 [Spork]
- heh
- 16:35:20 [Spork]
- I love websites that suck
- 16:35:25 [Spork]
- Like they just don't work
- 16:35:31 [Spork]
- Further than the front page
- 16:47:13 [Spork]
- heh
- 16:47:19 [Spork]
- Our flight # got changed
- 17:45:17 [docwolf]
- docwolf (~docwolf@adsl-63-198-222.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #openacs
- 17:45:44 [docwolf]
- howdy
- 17:47:40 [donb]
- donb (~donb@dsl-dhogaza.pacifier.net) has joined #openacs
- 17:49:16 [donb]
- Howdy?
- 17:49:27 [donb]
- Howdy?
- 17:49:48 [markd2]
- hello
- 17:51:03 [talli]
- talli (~talli@xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net) has joined #openacs
- 17:51:28 [talli]
- hey guys
- 17:53:00 [docwolf]
- don: i'm feeling like a cowboy.
- 17:53:24 [docwolf]
- "howdy" always makes me think of the southwest.
- 17:53:26 [talli]
- docwolf: are you wearing your pick chaps again?
- 17:53:38 [markd2]
- * markd2 pictures docwolf in Village-people style chaps
- 17:53:43 [donb]
- Talli - we now officially have three people (including me) working on bboard and permissions performance issues for both Oracle and Postgres ...
- 17:53:52 [talli]
- wow! great.
- 17:54:04 [talli]
- what's the team?
- 17:54:06 [docwolf]
- talli: i'm more of the mustachioed-cop type, or maybe the construction worker.
- 17:54:12 [talli]
- so i'll know who to bug :)
- 17:55:01 [donb]
- Hopefully we'll have some answers in a couple of weeks - Peter Harper (of OpenMSG, the automated test tool guy), Andrew Spencer (with his 70,000 post database dump that he'll share with us) and me. BTW Dave Hill hasn't sent me those scripts, you can't bug me until he does...
- 17:55:01 [talli]
- docwolf: isn't there a male nurse or something in the village people? something where you can use your medical knowledge?
- 17:55:35 [talli]
- really? i was cc'ed on an email where he sent them.
- 17:55:38 [donb]
- Adam has a mustach now? If you've not met Adam he's kinda short and skinny, more Charlie Chaplin than cop!
- 17:55:39 [talli]
- let me forward them to you
- 17:56:16 [talli]
- donb: they never arrived at your dhogaza@pacifier.com email?
- 17:56:16 [docwolf]
- donb: haha. i've let myself go. being in florida makes you lazy.
- 17:56:30 [talli]
- what is a "hogaza" btw?
- 17:58:21 [markd2]
- sounds like a Japanese battle cry
- 17:58:36 [markd2]
- "and then the Samuri cried out HOGAZA!!!!! as they leaped from the tower's windows"
- 17:58:53 [docwolf]
- wow.. and pacifier.com looks like a mom & pop situation
- 17:59:05 [docwolf]
- so it's not like someone took the donb@pacifier.com address....
- 17:59:18 [talli]
- haha! sounds about right. don, are you a real samurai?
- 18:02:42 [donb]
- Talli - no I never saw them.
- 18:02:59 [talli]
- donb: ok, i just sent them to you again
- 18:03:24 [donb]
- It's "dhogaza" that could be part of the problem. It's really Dho Gaza, and it's Arab (don't tell anyone, the FBI will be here questioning me in a flash if you do!)
- 18:03:30 [donb]
- Arabic I meant...
- 18:03:54 [donb]
- It's a kind of trap used for catching raptors.
- 18:04:09 [hazmat]
- i always wondered bout that...
- 18:04:25 [docwolf]
- that brings up more questions than it answers....
- 18:04:28 [donb]
- There are few things in life as fun as catching hawks and eagles, sigh...last September 26th, 130 hawks in one day.
- 18:05:04 [hazmat]
- what do you with them?
- 18:05:11 [markd2]
- yeah. traps for dinosaurs?
- 18:05:19 [talli]
- like Toronto Raptors or Velociraptors? was it used in Jurrassic Park? Is that where you got the name? i loved that movie... all it needed was docwol in pink chaps and i would prefer it over Flashdance
- 18:05:23 [donb]
- Arabs were the first falconers, and the original design goes back over 1,000 years ...
- 18:05:26 [docwolf]
- well, birds are dinosaurs, right?
- 18:06:15 [donb]
- Birds == dinosaurs is a heavily debated topic in the world of evolutionary biology, mostly hinging around conflicting evidence as to whether or not dinosaurs were warm-blooded.
- 18:07:32 [donb]
- Kapil - we put US Fish and Wildlife bands on them and take a series of morphological measurements (quite a few when we're not busy, not as a many on a busy day, and less than we used to because we have a database of measurements on about 30,000 hawks now).
- 18:07:54 [talli]
- donb: how are birds of prey trained to obey a human? seems pretty amazing that an animal that can fly a mile into the air will return to some guy with a glove on.
- 18:08:58 [donb]
- Golden eagles and some red-tailed hawks and some young northern goshawks get satellite transmitters so we can watch their migratory progress north and south, measure their winter range area, their breeding area (if we can find them and verify they're nesting) etc for a couple of years (red-tails and goshawks) to five years (eagles).
- 18:09:06 [donb]
- (eagles can carry much heavier batteries).
- 18:09:30 [hazmat]
- hazmat has changed the topic to: The Nature Channel
- 18:09:38 [donb]
- Unfortunately satellite transmitters weigh too much, still, to put on smaller forest hawks, which are really the ones we're most interested in (since logging is a big deal in the west).
- 18:09:54 [donb]
- Hey - our project's been on public TV at least twice!
- 18:10:31 [markd2]
- markd2 has changed the topic to: The Nature Channel : eagles can carry much heavier batteries.
- 18:10:38 [hazmat]
- thats cool, so you track the birds via GPS?
- 18:11:24 [hazmat]
- never mind dumb question...
- 18:11:39 [donb]
- Talli - it's all about food. Falconers either take birds from the nest before they fledge (i.e. can fly) or catch them on migration like we do. Mostly first-year birds get caught 'cause they're hungry (we use pigeons, doves, starlings and house sparrows as lures). Many falconry birds fly off and go by-by the next spring when that migratory urge hits again...
- 18:12:15 [talli]
- ah, cool. thanks.
- 18:12:37 [donb]
- It's amazing that a 22 gram package (about 3/4 of an ounce for us non-metric yanks) can figure out where it is, radio it to a satellite, and do so once a day for two years!
- 18:13:01 [donb]
- The eagle package only weighs 80 oz with the five year battery ...
- 18:13:11 [donb]
- oops 80 GRAMS
- 18:13:47 [donb]
- We should put one on Adam ... "hey, he's been sitting in the same spot in Florida for six months now!"
- 18:14:16 [donb]
- Enough biology - the secret is that catching hawks is *fun*! Like fishing the sky ...
- 18:14:17 [docwolf]
- donb: not too far from the truth! though i had to go to indianapolis a couple of days ago. i wasn't thrilled about it. :-(
- 18:14:26 [talli]
- why don't we put one on philip too? then we wouldn't need the NYtimes anymore, or his website for that matter!
- 18:14:54 [donb]
- My ex-wife grew up on Indianola Avenue, Indianapolis, Indiana. Think she's a hoosier?
- 18:15:31 [docwolf]
- donb: what did she think of the town? i may do some contracting there for a pharmaco. though i'm not too fond of winters in the midwest.
- 18:15:32 [donb]
- Catching hawks is a lot more fun than travelling in a friggin' RV - Winnebagos have no style.
- 18:16:01 [docwolf]
- donb: you're wrong -- when you have Kiehls products, it's "classy" ;-)
- 18:16:01 [shagster]
- I love travelling in a RV
- 18:16:28 [shagster]
- Race on Sunday, travel on Monday :)
- 18:16:55 [donb]
- Adam - well, it was a lot different then than it is now, I'm sure. In the early 80s (we split up in 86) the downtown regrowth was just getting underway (in the mid-70s, when we hooked up, it was a dump)
- 18:18:02 [docwolf]
- don: it's still an odd place. it was like a "stepford city". there is 1 major employer, besides the government.
- 18:18:10 [docwolf]
- they should rename it "prozac place"
- 18:18:30 [talli]
- hey... that's my house! i've already TM'ed the name!
- 18:18:49 [donb]
- I know she's never considered moving back there, not for a minute. If you asked her I'm sure she could list 20-30 cities she'd rather live in than Indy.
- 18:19:18 [shagster]
- OH, every city has its charm, or lack of it :) (As a resident of Clevand, Oh I know about both)
- 18:19:22 [docwolf]
- i have lived in several midwestern cities. The primary feeling one gets in some of them is "claustrophobia".
- 18:19:37 [docwolf]
- I especially got that sense in kansas city... like it was the end of the earth.
- 18:19:53 [donb]
- I haven't been to KC in many, many years. Not enough years ...
- 18:20:01 [talli]
- docwolf: you grew up in NYC! everyplace is going to feel like that!
- 18:20:14 [donb]
- Talli - the scripts made it, thanks. Weird, I don't know why I didn't get it yesterday/last night.
- 18:20:21 [shagster]
- I spent the longest year of my life in KC one weekend
- 18:20:22 [docwolf]
- talli: i think it's the lack of water that makes me uncomfortable.
- 18:20:44 [talli]
- donb: yeah, that seemed a bit weird. maybe the InterWeb broke?
- 18:20:52 [docwolf]
- I was in KC for a summer, and I really felt like I was in jail; if you jump in a car and drive for hours, you still won't get anyplace.
- 18:21:51 [donb]
- Talli - it will probably arrive tomorrow or something ... hey, my shipment of 768MB of RAM should be showing up in the next hour or so!
- 18:22:08 [talli]
- mmm... more RAM
- 18:22:24 [donb]
- Southern Indiana's not too bad, rolling hill country, like southern OH or southern IL
- 18:22:45 [donb]
- Limestone cliffs, etc (my ex-wife learned to rock climb in southern IN)
- 18:22:49 [talli]
- from what i hear, South. Indiana is some serious Klan kountry
- 18:23:40 [docwolf]
- donb: northern indiana/kansas/iowa... it's all like death.
- 18:23:44 [donb]
- Undoubtably ... southern IN is very redneck. This is all that general area where pro-slave and anti-slave types murdered, raped and burned in uninhibited fashion during the Civil War ...
- 18:24:20 [donb]
- northern IN especially, all that industrial crap spilling over from Chicago ... (Gary, IN ugh!)
- 18:24:34 [docwolf]
- gary, indiana is totally epic. i got stuck there a couple of weeks ago.
- 18:24:55 [donb]
- Ouch ... the glamorous life of a venture vulture ...
- 18:25:16 [docwolf]
- haha. actually, i was driving to chicago to visit family, and there was an accident on the interstate.
- 18:25:27 [docwolf]
- ... so i drove some pretty backroads in indiana... then all of a sudden...
- 18:25:41 [docwolf]
- everything turned grey. the sky was filled with ash. and there were lots of liquor stores.
- 18:26:26 [docwolf]
- literally, all of the buildings in town had a grey coating on them. it was nasty, mad-max like.
- 18:26:32 [donb]
- I mostly remember the gray and ash and the absolute armpit-of-the-earth appearance. I mean, some industrial areas are at least interesting if you're into techno shit but Gary's just a friggin' armpit.
- 18:27:14 [docwolf]
- gary is hell on earth. dirty slums on one side, huge steel factories belching flames into the air on the other.
- 18:27:40 [docwolf]
- the only worse city that I can recall passing through is elizabeth, NJ.
- 18:28:16 [docwolf]
- both have the fitzgerald "valley of ashes" feel.
- 18:28:50 [donb]
- I've only driven through it a couple of times, probably 20 years ago, and the memory of Gary is still ingrained in my mind. I shall avoid Elizabeth, NJ. Is there a trend here? Avoid cities with first names of people?
- 18:29:16 [talli]
- i once spoke with someone from gary, indiana who went to school with Glenn Robinson, a pro basketball player who grew up in Indiana
- 18:29:36 [talli]
- his senior year in high school, the team went 32-1 and won teh state championships
- 18:30:14 [talli]
- the lost the one game because during the school day, the principal came on the speaker phone and announced that they would lose the game because they were afraid of racial rioting.
- 18:30:47 [talli]
- on the way into the rival high school's city, burning crosses were placed on the sides of the roads.
- 18:31:00 [donb]
- I once took a flight from Indiana to Chicago with the Philly 76ers on it, in 1978, the year after Portland beat them for the NBA championship in 1977. Dr. J was two rows back, Doug Collins just behind me, Steve Mix in the two seats next to me. Before charter flights became the norm, on a plane with no first class. I just had to point out that I was from Portland and a Blazer fan and hey, too bad about last year, guys!
- 18:31:15 [talli]
- while i fear the insanity of Osama bin Laden, i also don't feel so god about the fellas in our country to
- 18:31:32 [donb]
- Don't get me started about military tribunals ...
- 18:31:44 [talli]
- whoa. that is incredibly scary.
- 18:31:55 [talli]
- those tribunals are the end of it.
- 18:32:28 [talli]
- i was at least hoping the Bill of Rights would protect us from some things, but alas...
- 18:33:01 [donb]
- Ashcroft is just nasty. I think Bush is mostly clueless, Cheney an asshole, and Rumsfeld just your average militarist who would've been really, really bored if we hadn't given him an opportunity to play with his toys...
- 18:33:27 [k2pts]
- k2pts (~nkd@adsl-168-174.cytanet.com.cy) has joined #openacs
- 18:33:28 [docwolf]
- unfortunately, i think the "asshole" is actually the one running the show.
- 18:33:35 [shagster]
- Bush is just _mostly_ clueless?
- 18:34:00 [donb]
- Oh, yeah, Cheney's the guy. Yeah, mostly clueless ... I've heard he can shoot ducks and hit a golf ball, so he's not totally clueless, eh? :)
- 18:34:01 [shagster]
- docwolf, I think you absolutely right on that..
- 18:34:03 [talli]
- is the "asshole" dubyah, cheney or daddy?
- 18:34:10 [donb]
- Cheney ...
- 18:34:32 [talli]
- yeah, well he's in a "safe location" you know...
- 18:35:13 [docwolf]
- talli: i don't think bush is an "asshole"... he's just a product of his environment (and other substances)
- 18:35:14 [shagster]
- that is why I just hack code and turn a wrench :)
- 18:35:24 [talli]
- i fear that daddy bush has a little say in how the world is shaping up as well
- 18:35:49 [shagster]
- docwolf: Bush is the model for president for years to come, well liked puppets
- 18:35:51 [donb]
- oil greases that slippery slope we always seem to slide down ...
- 18:36:57 [shagster]
- nitro makes light weight cars go very fast, no much time for oil and grease to slide anywhere :)
- 18:37:41 [docwolf]
- donb: i really don't understand energy companies.
- 18:37:50 [donb]
- In what way?
- 18:38:54 [donb]
- That's a serious question ...
- 18:39:18 [docwolf]
- well... if I ran a company whose lifeblood depended upon a substance that was in foreign and unstable lands
- 18:39:33 [docwolf]
- i would probably consider investing in alternatives... so I could at least be in control of my future.
- 18:40:02 [docwolf]
- A great example is the pharmaceutical industry -- they know that their old drugs will eventually be obsolete.
- 18:40:24 [docwolf]
- but instead of running "alternative"/small biotech companies into the ground, they actively seek them out, fund them, then control their output.
- 18:40:37 [docwolf]
- this is a rational, long-term strategy.
- 18:40:46 [shagster]
- Well, quite a few enery companies do look at alternaives, but the bottom line is monkey
- 18:40:50 [shagster]
- Umm money :)
- 18:41:31 [talli]
- shagster: i would prefer it to be monkey. at least monkeys can do funny tricks. money just sits there.
- 18:41:39 [shagster]
- Until there is a long term alternative that will make them more money than oil they'll follow the money
- 18:41:47 [shagster]
- HA!
- 18:41:55 [shagster]
- "show me the monkey"
- 18:42:33 [docwolf]
- shagster: but revenue streams from oil are becoming increasingly risky. As the risk/return ratio changes, one would think that energy cos would get serious about alternatives.
- 18:42:39 [donb]
- Hmmm...the problem is partly that oil's so easy, and alternative both hard and expensive. We understand basic chemistry/physics a lot better than we do something as complex as the ecosystem represented by the human body and various infectious agents.
- 18:42:41 [docwolf]
- or at least in putting in real investment dollars in alternatives.
- 18:43:00 [shagster]
- docwolf, I'll agree with you completely but I'm not the one running the oil companies
- 18:43:09 [donb]
- There is investment money going into fuel cells, a lot, now that most of the technical problems have been solved.
- 18:43:28 [docwolf]
- donb: agreed. But consider this: in the "solar car" races that are held every year, it's always like a team of 10 students with meager investment that has a good showing.
- 18:43:30 [shagster]
- I know BP spends quite a bit of money researching alternatives (they are fairly big on solar power for heating)
- 18:43:59 [docwolf]
- in my world, those 10 students wouldn't even have the chance to compete, because the commercial alternative would be so much stronger.
- 18:44:32 [docwolf]
- (not that i'm downplaying the student's efforts.. Michigan always fields a good car, but.... it just blows my mind that private industry hasn't taken up serious research like that)
- 18:44:40 [shagster]
- The better idea doesn't always work economically, no matter the benifits
- 18:44:48 [donb]
- Solar power for transportation doesn't really hold a lot of promise unless someone can figure out how to make a photovoltaic device that's a lot more efficient than anything out there. Problem is that we've only seen incremental improvements in the base technology (while recently we've seen more of a quantum leap in solving problems with fuel cells).
- 18:45:23 [shagster]
- donb: most of BP's research is towards heating and building energy
- 18:45:24 [docwolf]
- donb: right, fuel cells are interesting. but I haven't heard Mobil come up with a plan for setting up fuel cell stations...
- 18:45:45 [AaronSw]
- * AaronSw disconnects
- 18:46:18 [donb]
- The auto manufacturers will be the ones to make the move then the oil companies will follow or lose their monopoly on supplying fuel
- 18:46:19 [shagster]
- not automotive power
- 18:46:58 [docwolf]
- well, the auto industry in america is doomed. We've become so addicted to SUVs that when the arabs do cut the oil, we're going to be in a mess.
- 18:47:51 [shagster]
- I just need enough fuel to power a car a 1/4 of a mile...usually around 7-13 gallons :)
- 18:48:15 [donb]
- Ford is coming out with a hybrid SUV (Exploder-based) ... thanks to California! If it weren't for CA you wouldn't see much investment at all in fuel cell development (it is the automotive market that's driving it)
- 18:48:41 [docwolf]
- don: what kind of milage does that Ford get?
- 18:48:51 [donb]
- Shagster - why not just buy yourself an old Russian solid-fuel rocket or JATO booster and be done with it? Nice, low-tech, no moving parts ...
- 18:49:20 [shagster]
- Well because IHRA and NHRA doesn't like those that much :)
- 18:49:54 [docwolf]
- i'm just waiting for a humble sedan like my subaru that can get 80mpg. I want a bladder-busting 1000 mile range.
- 18:49:55 [donb]
- Probably 30-something? Hybrids have a different consumption profile than normal cars, typically getting about the same in the city as on the highway. Shagster, Question Authority!
- 18:50:57 [docwolf]
- the thing about detroit is (at least my experience, from going to the business school that turns out most of their execs..) is that "innovation" is not high on the priority list.
- 18:51:18 [shagster]
- donb: Actually, I just don't want to get the license to drive a jet car, call me chicken
- 18:51:20 [docwolf]
- (or, not _real_ innovation.. just stuff like more cup holders, etc..
- 18:51:47 [donb]
- Most gasoline is consumed within what, 25 miles of your home? And that's where the pollution problem is. The hybrid solution actually works surprisingly well at helping cut pollution where it's needed. They're not great highway cars, though, at the moment - that's not the focus (again, CA is driving this and the Southland particularly so)
- 18:52:30 [donb]
- I used to band hawks with an interesting couple, the husband was a retired fighter pilot, the wife a retired race car driver...
- 18:53:08 [shagster]
- now there is a couple
- 18:53:09 [donb]
- The hybrid solution's a short- or mid-term kludge though, I don't think anyone at Toyota or Honda would tell you otherwise.
- 18:54:02 [shagster]
- until people set there expectations differently on transporation there will still be this problem
- 18:54:53 [docwolf]
- donb: i'd feel really uncomfortable buying a hybrid... i suspect i'm not alone. I guess i'd lease one though.
- 18:54:53 [donb]
- I'm surprised the German auto companies aren't doing more. It's easy to understand why Japanese companies are. Not only are their cars very popular here on the west coast meaning they'll pay particular attention to CA, but Japan's 100% dependent on foreign oil. I presume the government encourages them to a great degree ...
- 18:56:35 [donb]
- Adam ... they've been sold in Japan for at least two-three years before their introduction here, so one isn't *entirely* a guinea pig. Still, I'd rather see what the ten-year life cycle looks like. They do warranty the batteries, and they're losing money on each car sold (like MS on the Xbox and for the same reason, except in Honda/Toyota's case they're field testing something which actually *is*, at some level, innovative).
- 18:56:44 [docwolf]
- donb: it looks like the germans are still way focused on building high-milage diesels. Though i think that DC is working on fuel cell cars.
- 18:57:15 [donb]
- Hmmm...yeah I think you're right about DC and fuel cells, I forgot about that...
- 18:59:04 [donb]
- I've always liked Honda. Their CVCC engine, introduced in the mid-80s, beat CA's emissions standards without a catylitic converter, which no one else was able to do (later the federal law required catalytic convertors on all cars regardless, sorta robbing Honda of the fruits of their labor to some degree)
- 19:00:22 [donb]
- Well ... I should go off and be productive. I'm actually about ready to cut an alpha2 release of OACS 4, believe it or not, just need to do some sanity checking on packages right-and-left...
- 19:00:33 [shagster]
- kewl...
- 19:01:04 [donb]
- It's going to be a lot more solid than the first two tarballs. Still aways to go for a decent beta and then release.
- 19:01:07 [shagster]
- I'm waiting on work from my current employer if I can use some code for a webmail app I just finished
- 19:01:32 [talli]
- this is a crazy idea, but a very interesting article about innovate engine approaches: http://www.business2.com/articles/mag/print/0,1643,17377,FF.html
- 19:01:52 [shagster]
- Ummm _word_ from , not work
- 19:02:05 [talli]
- Called the McMaster Rotary Engine (MRE), it has no oil, no seals, no rings, and no coolant; it is designed to run completely dry. The burnished-steel apparatus weighs just 220 pounds -- about a third lighter than a typical six-cylinder car engine -- yet McMaster claims that it could theoretically generate more than 1,000 horsepower, enough to drive an M-1 tank. In a car it would eliminate the need for the transmission, the drivetrain, and the exhaust sy
- 19:06:50 [docwolf]
- that can't possibly work...
- 19:07:05 [docwolf]
- it sounds like something you read about in popular mechanics
- 19:07:22 [talli]
- read the article.
- 19:07:31 [docwolf]
- it must have some Tragic Flaw
- 19:07:32 [talli]
- it seems that some people are taking it reasonably seriously
- 19:07:58 [docwolf]
- "it worked fine, but after 30,000 miles turned into a mass of high-speed shrapnel.."
- 19:08:07 [donb]
- This guy is actually famous for inventing something and making a Big Pile Of Money off it, but I forget what it was. Talli, do you remember since you just read the article?
- 19:08:11 [markd2]
- well, if it works for microsoft...
- 19:08:35 [talli]
- he started a couple of glass companies
- 19:08:55 [talli]
- i believe he is famous for inventing some processes for making glass more flexible and durable
- 19:09:07 [talli]
- then he sold his companies.
- 19:09:19 [docwolf]
- oh man.. he's from Toledo-tucky
- 19:09:33 [talli]
- all in all, he seems like an inventive genius.
- 19:09:49 [markd2]
- flexiglass
- 19:10:03 [talli]
- i think that's why some people are taking it rather seriously. he's also been working on the design of the engine for 40+ yeras
- 19:12:37 [donb]
- I just googled, yeah, a process for bending and tempering glass so we can have those nice curved back windows that shatter into little not-very-sharp bits when you hit them.
- 19:13:06 [donb]
- "but does it scale?" :)
- 19:13:59 [docwolf]
- i'll have to find out about this dude when i get back to detroit.
- 19:14:03 [donb]
- At least he's not responsible for developing whatever technology is used to bond the Airbuses composite vertical stablizer to its bolted-on composite base.
- 19:14:15 [docwolf]
- see what the word is in the local investment community.
- 19:14:34 [talli]
- ugh. that's pretty bad about the airbus. ugh
- 19:14:44 [donb]
- I think we're going to learn something about "composite fatigue" or some other interesting materials science kinda stuff ...
- 19:15:08 [donb]
- Unfortunately we only learn about the long-term life of machines by running them until they break.
- 19:15:09 [docwolf]
- the plane wasn't even that old
- 19:15:09 [talli]
- but at least he wasn't the material scientist who designed the B2 bombers stealth skin...
- 19:15:48 [donb]
- It had a turbulence event in 1994 that injured 46 people, so it had been stressed in an interesting way in the past.
- 19:16:26 [docwolf]
- that must have been some turbulence! 46 injured? jeez...
- 19:16:37 [donb]
- That's a rare turbulence event ... injuries due to turbulence only happen a dozen? or so times a year in large airliners worldwide, so 46 injured is a *big* whack.
- 19:18:17 [donb]
- Yeah ... you can start thinking of scenarios like some undetected weakness in the lamination joint at the bottom of the stabilizer slowly weakening year after year (after the initial stress) then wake turbulence from an 747 only two miles ahead being enough to finish the job. The roll, loss of control and shedding engines can fit into a sheared vertical stabilizer scenario.
- 19:18:45 [k2pts]
- k2pts has left #openacs
- 19:21:33 [donb]
- I think this will be "interesting" like the DC-9 in Hawaii that lost the top half of the fuselage in first class and landed safely (that is a bizarre picture if you've ever seen it). "interesting" because that was caused by metal fatigue in a very old airplane that spent its life flying back-and-forth on little hops between the islands. Each takeoff/landing cycle causes the fuselage to expand/contract (due to being pressurized) and engineers just ha
- 19:21:41 [donb]
- like that plane's would cause such a problem...
- 19:22:12 [donb]
- Oh well ... actually conspiracy theories are more fun ...
- 19:22:34 [docwolf]
- i'm actually getting sort of nervous about flying on certain airlines with old fleets.
- 19:22:56 [docwolf]
- or heterogeneous fleets.
- 19:23:41 [donb]
- The things that are known to fail get replaced, and every crash teaches them about something else that needs to be replaced. I flew in a Lockheed Electra in South America once. I didn't tell my ex-wife the famous history of the plane (early in its career two different ones shed their wings in flight due to metal fatigue) until after we landed ...
- 19:24:06 [donb]
- They actually had fixed the problem once it was understood why the wings fell off, but still ...
- 19:24:12 [docwolf]
- good lord.
- 19:24:42 [donb]
- Heterogeneous fleets are worse IMO because maintenance overhead will be higher and airlines are broke.
- 19:24:46 [docwolf]
- southwest is my favorite airline, b/c it's all 737s, all the time. their crews are uniformly trained, etc...
- 19:25:03 [donb]
- Southwest had it right, all 737s all the same model with all the same engines.
- 19:25:10 [docwolf]
- yup. no room for error.
- 19:25:16 [donb]
- many parts are interchangable :)
- 19:25:40 [docwolf]
- and the capacities are all the same, so if a plane goes out of service they can replace it with an identical one immediately.
- 19:25:43 [donb]
- Still ... airliners are incredibly rugged. They're actually relatively hard to break.
- 19:25:56 [donb]
- Yes, it really helps with route scheduling, too.
- 19:26:13 [talli]
- well, the fact that 20K airplanes take off and land everyday is pretty impressive to me.
- 19:26:25 [donb]
- They're always going to land, one way or another :(
- 19:27:14 [docwolf]
- looks like Jetblue has picked up the southwest model & moved it slightly upscale.
- 19:27:17 [docwolf]
- i hope they survive.
- 19:29:07 [donb]
- You can fly without a vertical stabilizer. A B-17 apparently crashed in the NYC area in WWII after the vertical stabilizer blew off. So the Army Air Force sent another B-17 into a thunderstorm to try to see if turbulence could indeed be responsible. It also lost its vertical stabilizer ... and the crew flew it home. Unfortunately, the airbus lost its flying low and slow right after takeoff, no altitude to recover and they probably totally stalled
- 19:29:30 [donb]
- Jetblue used to have the most obnoxious online ordering system on the planet!
- 19:30:33 [docwolf]
- the ordering system was down last week.. doesn't look too reliable.
- 19:32:19 [donb]
- Their first incarnation had links on the front page to "fun games you can play" and crap like that, just using icons that lit up with text as you rolled your mouse randomly around the page. It's a lot better now, the icons have words like "buy tickets" under them.
- 19:33:08 [donb]
- I actually e-mailed them when they first rolled out the website and got a "thank you" letter with comments on some of my observations, telling me that they were going back to the web designers to talk about usability. I was pleasantly surprised ...
- 19:33:21 [docwolf]
- whoa! don strikes again...
- 19:33:23 [donb]
- (a thank you e-mail letter, I should say)
- 19:33:28 [docwolf]
- "Dear Jet Blue, You Suck"
- 19:34:10 [docwolf]
- i just had an interesting experience with ATA
- 19:34:17 [donb]
- Naw, not that bad, I was polite but pointed out that if a computer freak needed five minutes to find their schedule and prices Joe Public would find it harder and be long-gone to Travelocity and a real airline before figuring it out ...
- 19:34:43 [docwolf]
- so, ATA is one of the worst discount airlines ever
- 19:34:59 [donb]
- I've never flown them ...
- 19:35:02 [docwolf]
- but they actually had better security than the major airlines when i flew them last week.
- 19:35:05 [docwolf]
- i was impressed.
- 19:35:10 [docwolf]
- they profiled me.
- 19:35:30 [donb]
- Really? You don't look the least bit middle-eastern but ... awww ... "farkas"?
- 19:35:31 [docwolf]
- when they handed me (and several other people) our boarding passes, there was a huge "S" on them.
- 19:35:48 [docwolf]
- when we were ready to board the plane, anyone with an "S" had to go to a "special line"
- 19:36:02 [docwolf]
- our bags were searched, we were frisked (!), and a metal detector was run over us.
- 19:36:16 [docwolf]
- (of course, everyone who was boarding got to watch this spectacle..)
- 19:36:32 [hazmat]
- yikes, i'm not lookin forward to holiday travels this year.
- 19:36:45 [docwolf]
- we determined that we all had a few things in common...
- 19:36:50 [markd2]
- docwolf: that happened to me on both legs of my pittsburgh -> omaha trip
- 19:37:01 [docwolf]
- young male, one-way tix, no baggage checked through.
- 19:37:13 [donb]
- Wow ... the reputation of aD is really sticking, eh?
- 19:37:17 [docwolf]
- haha
- 19:37:22 [donb]
- Oh ... one way ticket right ...
- 19:37:38 [donb]
- If I were a terrorist I'd buy a HALF-WAY ticket!
- 19:37:43 [markd2]
- heh
- 19:38:52 [donb]
- A greek doctor (resident, actually) on his way to a daylong conference up in Seattle or Juneau was pulled off an Alaskan Airline flight here because another passenger said "he looks 'strange' and 'nervous'". Just pulled him off, told him he could board a later flight (too late to hit the talk he was going to, so he declined).
- 19:39:26 [docwolf]
- whoa... other passengers can get you thrown off for looking "nervous"?!
- 19:39:42 [markd2]
- maybe I can get all those screaming children thrown off...
- 19:39:48 [donb]
- In this case, at least ... The Oregonian wrote a fairly scathing editorial, that's how I know about it.
- 19:39:49 [markd2]
- "that crying baby sure looks strange and nervous to me"
- 19:40:03 [donb]
- Yeah, really.
- 19:40:03 [docwolf]
- "so does that 400 pound man..."
- 19:40:19 [docwolf]
- americans really need to slim down.. :-(
- 19:40:46 [docwolf]
- last flight from atlanta i was pinned in my seat by an enormous fellow.
- 19:41:02 [donb]
- Of course people look nervous! Sheesh ... this was like a day after the airbus crash, people are always "looking nervous" on airplanes after a horrible accident (not to mention all those with white knuckles normally)
- 19:41:25 [docwolf]
- donb: the cure for nerves = drugs. and lots of them.
- 19:42:03 [donb]
- Adam's not into homeopathy :) (neither am I, I'm a rationalist!)
- 19:42:18 [docwolf]
- "anything worth doing is worth overdoing" ;-)
- 19:42:43 [donb]
- Like hanging prints of your own photographs?
- 19:42:52 [docwolf]
- haha
- 19:43:13 [ola]
- ola (~ola@as3-1-3.mal.s.bonet.se) has joined #openacs
- 19:44:29 [markd2]
- heh
- 19:45:00 [donb]
- Next time I'm seated with a really obnoxious person I'll have to see if I can get them tossed off the plane. It would be an interesting exercise, no?
- 19:45:38 [donb]
- Just think about the pleasure of being seated next to Jerry Falwell and getting him booted off ...
- 19:46:00 [donb]
- (ola, you've dropped into the midst of a very off-topic discussion)
- 19:46:25 [talli]
- my father was born in Iraq but was smuggled to Israel after his father was jailed in the early 50's (long story)...
- 19:46:59 [talli]
- he is dark, but doesn't look particularly arabic. he does, however, have Iraq in his passport as place of birth
- 19:47:16 [talli]
- he travels an outrageous amount and now gets stopped reasonably regularly.
- 19:47:32 [donb]
- I've wondered about the derivation of "Somekh"...I bet he does get stopped a lot.
- 19:47:33 [docwolf]
- uh-oh. guess the FBI has logged this whole conversatio.
- 19:47:45 [docwolf]
- hi echelon!
- 19:47:59 [talli]
- my mother's family is from poland, so my bro and i are a nice mix of east and west.
- 19:48:22 [talli]
- but i look more "jewish" while my bro looks more "arabic", especially when he hasn't shaved
- 19:48:51 [talli]
- he got profiled a couple of weeks ago while driving in Tennessee on his book tour. pulled over by a Tenn state trooper.
- 19:49:13 [donb]
- What's his book? Can Tenn state troopers even read?
- 19:49:17 [docwolf]
- uh-oh.
- 19:49:39 [talli]
- haha
- 19:49:42 [donb]
- (illiteracy is our best hope for escaping the FBI...)
- 19:49:42 [talli]
- the balloon hat book
- 19:49:49 [donb]
- Oh, right!!!
- 19:49:55 [donb]
- Sheesh I'd forgotten about that.
- 19:50:27 [talli]
- http://www.balloonhat.com/purchase/index.html
- 19:50:27 [chump]
- A: http://www.balloonhat.com/purchase/index.html from talli
- 19:50:29 [donb]
- I think Bush should wear a balloon hat for all his speeches and press conferences.
- 19:50:40 [talli]
- AaronSw: talli must push his bros wares as much as possible
- 19:50:59 [talli]
- AaronSw: talli must push his bros wares as much as possible
- 19:51:39 [docwolf]
- you've gotta be kidding me.... what year is this??? : http://www.tolerance.org/news/feature/auburn/
- 19:51:48 [talli]
- talli has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- 19:52:13 [talli]
- talli (~talli@205.253.219.118) has joined #openacs
- 19:52:21 [markd2]
- yeah. you'd think they'd do a better make-up job
- 19:52:34 [docwolf]
- this is the tragedy of the south. Beautiful country, horrible people.
- 19:53:11 [markd2]
- most of the people are quite hospitable.
- 19:53:17 [markd2]
- but it's the rotten apples spoiling the bunch thing
- 19:53:37 [markd2]
- I'd chalk it up more to frat boys being involved
- 19:53:59 [docwolf]
- markd2: that's what is so strange about it. Like, i was driving through kentucky the other day... and most people were totally friendly. I just wonder what lurks beneath...
- 19:54:22 [donb]
- Kentucky's not really the south, though ...
- 19:54:35 [docwolf]
- heh.. it's darn close.
- 19:54:39 [markd2]
- heh
- 19:54:42 [markd2]
- I grew up in Arkansas
- 19:54:48 [donb]
- That's the south ...
- 19:54:55 [docwolf]
- actually, that whole region kentucky/tennessee, etc... is so pretty
- 19:55:05 [docwolf]
- it makes me really sad that it's such an economic hellhole.
- 19:55:25 [donb]
- My dad grew up in southern Illinois, just across the river from Paducah, Kentucky.
- 19:55:28 [markd2]
- I blame the bozos that are elected to office, and general bureaucracy
- 19:55:46 [markd2]
- Fedex would have been based in Little Rock, had the airport and local government not screwed it up
- 19:55:58 [donb]
- You don't blame the North, what kinda southerner are you? :)
- 19:56:01 [docwolf]
- whoa.. that is a major screw-up.
- 19:56:31 [donb]
- The guy who ghost-wrote Bill Gates' autobiography was Little Rock ...
- 19:56:33 [markd2]
- and when you consider that companies like TCBY (I think), Tysons, and Wal-Mart are all based in Arkasnas, and the state is still down there on the poverty scale, it's pretty sad
- 19:56:45 [markd2]
- * markd2 blames the War of Northern Agression
- 19:56:52 [donb]
- Well ... choking chickens doesn't pay much ...
- 19:57:05 [docwolf]
- haha
- 19:57:47 [docwolf]
- i'm not sure if florida is actually in the south
- 19:58:55 [docwolf]
- every third person here is an obnoxious new yorker.
- 19:58:58 [docwolf]
- (me included)
- 19:58:58 [hazmat]
- ot: the workflow builder rocks!
- 19:59:25 [donb]
- Yeah ... I've got to find time to play with that ...
- 19:59:47 [donb]
- Sigh ... after we make things run faster ...
- 20:00:40 [donb]
- Adam - go further south and every third person still thinks Batista is alive and ready to take over Cuba!
- 20:00:42 [hazmat]
- i'm just trying to make an end run around performance issues by ignoring the cr and having as little iintegrated admin stuff as possible, (fingers crossed).
- 20:02:03 [donb]
- The CR isn't really the problem ... I think Richard Li's mistaken. It is obnoxious that every item has a minimum of two objects. Just minimize your use of permissions ... that's the best way to avoid problems at the moment.
- 20:02:42 [donb]
- (every CR item, I mean, but if your content's large there's really not much additional overhead due to cr_item/cr_revision pairing).
- 20:03:31 [hazmat]
- actually i have an email from richard li re the cr, he doesn't think its a bottleneck either...
- 20:03:38 [hazmat]
- * hazmat digs through email
- 20:04:17 [donb]
- OK, Neophytos seemed to say yesterday that he did ... maybe he was just referring to the space overhead (cluttering object space with paired item/revisions)
- 20:04:27 [hazmat]
- hope nobody mines if i just dump it here As for the CR, I think that a big part of the problem was that putting
- 20:04:28 [hazmat]
- objects in the CR was expensive and you got a lot of features you
- 20:04:30 [hazmat]
- didn't
- 20:04:31 [hazmat]
- necessarily want. For instance, everything is versioned, which is
- 20:04:33 [hazmat]
- * hazmat has said too much
- 20:05:34 [donb]
- Right about everything being versioned being unneccessary, that was one of the things I had in mind when I posted that the CR and CMS are too closely coupled.
- 20:07:07 [donb]
- I've thought about ways to restructure that, just a bit. But overall I don't really think it's enough overhead to worry too much about compared to other stuff.
- 20:07:24 [donb]
- As far as overall whacking at the toolkit goes, that is ...
- 20:08:54 [hazmat]
- btw. re python ats integration, i have things working for a single content page (the *well*) but it doesn' handle recursive elements with python logic... do you think it needs to? are other people interested in python acs integration stuff?
- 20:09:28 [donb]
- I think at some point we do need to make sure the CR meets the needs of packages, otherwise we'll slip back into "package anarchy" like back in 3.x ...
- 20:09:34 [ola]
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- 20:09:44 [donb]
- I don't know how much interest there is, you should probably ask around.
- 20:11:18 [ola]
- ola (~ola@as3-1-3.mal.s.bonet.se) has joined #openacs
- 20:11:22 [hazmat]
- ok.
- 20:13:11 [talli]
- hazmat: we would be interested as one of the alternative suggestions we make to people, after AOLserver+tcl, is AOLserver+python
- 20:13:22 [talli]
- so yes, it would be cool to see python work nicely with OACS
- 20:13:46 [talli]
- as far as workflow goes, i think we may be building the first really unique app using that module
- 20:14:34 [talli]
- this is still very much in pre-alpha, and i don't know how much of it is made public to the average registered or unregistered user, but http://journals.museatech.net/ce
- 20:15:26 [talli]
- this is a double blind peer review system that has much of the workflow and process of PR automated and built it
- 20:15:58 [talli]
- for instance, nagging emails, selecting reviews, submiting transcripts, publising stuff, etc.
- 20:20:50 [hazmat]
- cool
- 20:21:57 [donb]
- Regarding fuel cells, check this out (Adam, still around?): http://www.hfcletter.com/letter/October01/feature.html
- 20:37:23 [til]
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- 20:47:26 [docwolf]
- whoa! don.. a fuel cell for laptops? yikes.
- 20:48:56 [donb]
- It's interesting ... not rechargable but slap in a new little thingy of methanol and off you go. They'd have to make the refills really cheap ...
- 20:49:10 [donb]
- Still ... the people at NEC aren't exactly idiots ...
- 20:50:10 [docwolf]
- looks really interesting
- 20:50:19 [docwolf]
- they could make a whole new revenue stream out of "methanol refills"
- 20:50:30 [docwolf]
- sort of like HP with their heinous printer carts
- 20:51:31 [markd2]
- is methanol one of the ones that can be drunk?
- 20:51:35 [donb]
- Given that current batteries die after a couple of hundred full recharge cycles, there's already a hidden cost to recharging (since you have to replace it after it dies). So total costs might not be higher.
- 20:51:42 [markd2]
- imagine being able to use the same cartrige for your laptop and a weekend bender
- 20:51:56 [docwolf]
- markd2: they only drink methanol in the south
- 20:51:57 [donb]
- Sure, you can drink methanol. You can drink gasoline, too ... I don't recommend it
- 20:52:10 [docwolf]
- you go blind.
- 20:52:14 [donb]
- Heh heh that's a good one, Adam.
- 20:52:30 [docwolf]
- it's really dangerous stuff.
- 20:52:32 [donb]
- And after you go blind you can participate in one of Talli's double-blind surveys!
- 20:53:44 [talli]
- donb: it's peer review
- 20:54:15 [donb]
- One of Talli's double-blind beer reviews!
- 20:54:16 [talli]
- so you would have to go in front of two other toothless hillbillies who are as loaded as you are and do a little mountain dance
- 20:54:44 [donb]
- Hey ... we could do a double-blind beer review as an example ...
- 20:55:11 [talli]
- i'm in... as long as donb brings some of that deeelish northwest beer.
- 20:55:19 [donb]
- Instead of testing a drug against a placebo we could test beer vs. near-beer...
- 20:55:52 [donb]
- "is there any difference in your ability to drive after a six-pack?"
- 20:57:02 [donb]
- Near-beer ... decaffienated coffee ... concepts I've never been able to understand ...
- 20:57:14 [talli]
- or "is your sister any more attractive after all that moonshine?"
- 20:57:37 [donb]
- They all look the same after you're blinded by moonshine methanol ...
- 20:57:59 [talli]
- lemme add THC-less hemp to that list, donb...
- 20:58:33 [talli]
- tie your battle ship to port, and smoke the extra!
- 20:58:34 [donb]
- Well ... you can use that to make rope, at least ... to hang those that use THC-full hemp ...
- 20:58:51 [markd2]
- the family tree is a cyclic graph
- 20:59:03 [donb]
- in the south, Mark?
- 20:59:23 [markd2]
- WV at least
- 21:00:19 [donb]
- I knew a woman from the south whose father was a lifer Sgt. in the Army (southern crackers, really)
- 21:00:49 [donb]
- He not only sexually abused her but took her to Germany in her mid-teens and had her living on base as his supposed *wife*.
- 21:01:02 [talli]
- yowch
- 21:01:20 [donb]
- She's really bright, attractive and ... totally messed up.
- 21:01:46 [donb]
- Her mother knew and raised no fuss about it...
- 21:02:13 [talli]
- well, you know how it is... as long as the spitoon is cleaned every day, who cares?
- 21:02:36 [donb]
- Of course in rural Oregon it's all about meth ... there's an unbelievable amount of crank used in the redneck portions of my state.
- 21:02:38 [markd2]
- wow
- 21:02:44 [talli]
- oh man, the Klan is really gonna come after me now when they go to check out the IRC logs
- 21:03:04 [docwolf]
- meth is some nasty business.
- 21:03:07 [talli]
- meth is a weird weird drug
- 21:03:12 [donb]
- In Afghanistan the women have to wear veils ... in the south it's the men! :)
- 21:03:18 [talli]
- haha!
- 21:03:29 [donb]
- Meth is one drug I've never messed with ...
- 21:03:52 [talli]
- me neither. i was talking about the weird worlds people enter when they start doing it. the lifestyles
- 21:04:10 [hazmat]
- i wonder if meth is stil the number one cause for trailer home fires...
- 21:04:17 [talli]
- it really is the waste of the world. i have a friend who lived in the central valley for a while, actually closer to death valley
- 21:04:19 [donb]
- My favorite meth story comes from Hines, Oregon ... a small town in SE Oregon (our part of the Great Basin, so much like cowboy Nevada) ...
- 21:04:24 [donb]
- Kapil - I'm getting to the fire part! :)
- 21:04:50 [talli]
- he said that the meth heads were always stealing auto parts and selling them to the scrap dealers
- 21:05:12 [talli]
- who would break it down into auto parts to be stolen by the meth heads who would sell it back to them
- 21:05:17 [donb]
- Motel 6 built a fine new motel there several years ago. The very first winter (Burns is known for -20 or worse weather) a guy and his girlfriend were cooking meth in their Motel 6 room ...
- 21:06:13 [donb]
- (that's funny, talli) anyway it blew up in their face. Burned the new Motel 6 down to the ground. There's nothing left but the pool, even today, it's surrounded by a chain link fence, just a vacant lot.
- 21:06:48 [docwolf]
- fascinating drug.
- 21:06:52 [talli]
- whoa. that musta been some good meth!
- 21:06:59 [hazmat]
- sounds like someone forget to the pay their insurance bill, unless meth fires qualifies as an act of god..
- 21:07:03 [donb]
- The couple ran off, the man seriously burned. Since it was so friggin' cold (Kapil, you'll like this!) they broke into a vacant trailer (it's a trailer park kinda town)...
- 21:07:25 [donb]
- Authorities found them in bed, the man with both ears burned off and serious burns elsewhere ...
- 21:07:47 [donb]
- I think Motel 6 just figured it might be a recurring event in that part of the country ...
- 21:08:12 [donb]
- So they didn't burn down a trailer but the story has a trailer in it!
- 21:08:20 [hazmat]
- :)
- 21:08:45 [docwolf]
- ugh. moral of the story: just say no :-)
- 21:08:50 [docwolf]
- at least to crank and heroin.
- 21:08:58 [donb]
- That's for sure ...
- 21:09:20 [donb]
- PCP's a good one to add to that list, too ...
- 21:09:30 [docwolf]
- yeah.. can't think of a good use for PCP.
- 21:10:13 [markd2]
- sounds like an aD acronym
- 21:10:13 [donb]
- Slip it to the people running those new military tribunals ...
- 21:10:21 [markd2]
- Person / Collaboration / Process
- 21:10:29 [markd2]
- and I can't think of a good use for that either
- 21:10:41 [donb]
- Ooooohhhhhh ... that's good .... maybe you can sell it to them, Mark!
- 21:11:29 [docwolf]
- haha
- 21:11:37 [docwolf]
- i have no idea what's going on in aD land these days.
- 21:11:43 [docwolf]
- no one responds to the bboard posts.
- 21:11:57 [docwolf]
- and it looks like they haven't even confessed that allen has been dumped
- 21:12:07 [hazmat]
- on that note its time for a smoke break :)
- 21:12:24 [talli]
- hey hazmat, should i remind you of the cigarrete stories i have?
- 21:12:29 [talli]
- i mean cancer stories?
- 21:13:18 [donb]
- Hey, there's a war on! Time to put the coffin nails back into the MREs ...
- 21:13:22 [hazmat]
- talli save em for a few years whens it relevant
- 21:13:30 [talli]
- ok :)
- 21:13:43 [donb]
- (my dad got hooked on cigs in WWII - a free pack in every ration pack!)
- 21:14:11 [docwolf]
- donb: if i was in a situation that required me to eat ration packs, i'd smoke too.
- 21:14:14 [talli]
- hazmat: i hear cancer doesn't hit people when they're young anyway
- 21:14:39 [donb]
- Depends on the cancer...
- 21:14:53 [shagster]
- Hmm 1250 sites on uptime, only 3% stale...
- 21:14:58 [docwolf]
- young men typically have little to worry about.
- 21:15:01 [docwolf]
- testicular cancer
- 21:15:05 [docwolf]
- some odd leukemias
- 21:15:19 [docwolf]
- melanoma, always.
- 21:15:19 [shagster]
- well, something is going to kill ya
- 21:15:42 [donb]
- It's the latter you always hear about ... we keep rotting nuts stories swept under the rug ...
- 21:15:42 [talli]
- i had a bit of a scare on my tongue a few weeks back
- 21:16:06 [donb]
- (but then he woke up and remembered getting it pierced the night before while drunk...)
- 21:16:09 [talli]
- the america dental association has a big ad campaign to get people to pay attention to oral cancer
- 21:16:13 [docwolf]
- not to scare all of you to death
- 21:16:21 [docwolf]
- but.. when i was an intern i had a patient in the ICU
- 21:16:30 [talli]
- i just so happened to have something on my tongue just as they started the ad
- 21:16:35 [docwolf]
- who was like 30, and had a sore on his gum-line that wouldn't heal.
- 21:16:53 [docwolf]
- he went to the dentist... and sure enough.. he had some weird lymphoma.
- 21:17:01 [docwolf]
- dead 6 months later.
- 21:17:04 [docwolf]
- it happens.
- 21:17:07 [talli]
- i haven't smoked for a year and a half, and hadn't chewed tobacco since freshman year in college, and then not regularly
- 21:17:31 [docwolf]
- talli: cancer is a multi-hit process. time will not save you.
- 21:17:36 [shagster]
- I had a buddy that live the "perfectly healthy lifestyle", died 2 years ago
- 21:17:45 [talli]
- but when they find something on your lip, the scary story was that they had to take a piece of your ass and make you a new lip
- 21:18:02 [docwolf]
- talli: it's even worse than it sounds.
- 21:18:04 [talli]
- docwolf: that's what Osama says!
- 21:18:27 [donb]
- The head of the Taliban sez they've put plans in place to destroy the US over the next few days ...
- 21:18:29 [talli]
- wait, we really should be talking abotu this when hazmat is arond
- 21:18:41 [shagster]
- (or course if he wouldn't have been fooling around with the guy's wife)
- 21:19:32 [hazmat]
- reading logs is fine by me.
- 21:20:03 [shagster]
- so I guess smoking and drinking is fine then don :)
- 21:20:11 [hazmat]
- i wonder what happens when a new study shows that computer work causes cancer...
- 21:20:28 [talli]
- the head of the taliban is probably a clinical schizophrenic with some shrapnel in his head. at least that was the story one of his dr. told...
- 21:20:50 [docwolf]
- yes, he does act like a psychotic person --
- 21:20:54 [talli]
- shagster: seriously. if that's true... light up!
- 21:20:59 [docwolf]
- he is delusional, frequently hears voices, etc..
- 21:21:10 [docwolf]
- and has bad epilepsy. all which adds up to brain damage.
- 21:21:23 [talli]
- my uncle quit smoking when he was around 50. but he told his wife that when he hits 80, he's gonna start again
- 21:21:58 [shagster]
- well, on the openacs front :) Anybody made an decisions on webmail yet?
- 21:22:09 [donb]
- "delusional, frequently hears voices, has bad epilepsy" ... sounds like your average religious prophet to me!
- 21:22:28 [donb]
- No decisions on webmail that I know of ...
- 21:22:31 [hazmat]
- shagster: i was working on a python version, but i've tabled it for the time being to work on a site.
- 21:22:31 [shagster]
- donb: or many of my ex-girlfriends :)
- 21:23:19 [donb]
- What we're going to need is someone with a compelling need for webmail on a client or similar site, I think ...
- 21:23:19 [shagster]
- Ahh, because I was just working on gmime and putting some TCL wrappers around it...
- 21:23:21 [hazmat]
- of course if anyone wants to pick it up...
- 21:24:05 [shagster]
- donb: Depends on what type of webmail. I'd love to replace sqwebmail, but then is maildir only
- 21:24:29 [donb]
- I'm thinking of something that will please almost everyone most of the time ...
- 21:24:30 [shagster]
- Umm that is maildir only...
- 21:25:03 [shagster]
- Well, if I get gmime with some TCL wrappers, it should be trival to move that to AOLserver...
- 21:25:25 [shagster]
- the mime support is really the only _bad_ part
- 21:25:35 [donb]
- Right ... you could look into putting it into an AOLserver module - is it threadsafe?
- 21:26:02 [shagster]
- It appears to be, I'm still looking into it a bit
- 21:27:29 [donb]
- OK ... hey, I've really got to run ... see you all later ...
- 21:27:33 [donb]
- donb has quit ("changing universes")
- 21:27:38 [shagster]
- I actually wanted to use some I wrote for my present employer but then don't want to
- 21:28:06 [talli]
- shagster: why the change of heart?
- 21:28:26 [shagster]
- I don't know.
- 21:28:42 [shagster]
- They aren't much on explaination
- 21:29:10 [shagster]
- So I think gmime might be the way to go...
- 21:29:21 [talli]
- oh, they don't want to
- 21:29:21 [shagster]
- (I have to check on threadsafe though)
- 21:29:48 [shagster]
- Yea, they want to keep it "internal"
- 21:30:06 [shagster]
- I have know idea why. I must have pissed somebody off here (again) :)
- 21:31:47 [talli]
- what kind of scripts did you write?
- 21:36:39 [hazmat]
- A:
- 21:36:39 [chump]
- http://www.balloonhat.com/purchase/index.html
- 21:36:46 [AaronSw]
- * AaronSw reconnects
- 21:39:08 [hazmat]
- hmm.. just saw this moz.zope.org
- 21:41:40 [talli]
- you just saw what?
- 21:42:24 [hazmat]
- a zope cmf based mozilla.org
- 21:43:43 [AaronSw]
- It's a bird... it's a plane, no it's Zop!
- 21:43:44 [AaronSw]
- err Zope
- 21:44:54 [hazmat]
- hi AaronSw
- 21:45:14 [hazmat]
- AaronSw: i was wondering if you knew of any good intros to rdf schema?
- 21:45:23 [AaronSw]
- Hmm..
- 21:45:33 [AaronSw]
- As in learning how to write schemas?
- 21:45:38 [AaronSw]
- why don't you ask in #rdfig?
- 21:46:16 [hazmat]
- ok, just thought i'd ask the local rdf guru :)
- 21:47:53 [hazmat]
- yes, i'm looking for material on writing schemas.
- 21:51:04 [hazmat]
- of course asking on rdfig means i get laughed at :( ... sigh where is xena
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- farmer.openprojects.net has changed the topic to: The Nature Channel : eagles can carry much heavier batteries.
- 22:16:01 [ChanServ]
- [#openacs] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
- 22:23:37 [Spork]
- hi
- 22:44:25 [hazmat]
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- 23:06:44 [davb]
- * davb returns from the dorky conference...
- 23:24:33 [Spork]
- heh
- 23:24:42 [Spork]
- Are you preparing to be more dorky than usual?
- 23:24:48 [davb]
- heh
- 23:24:49 [Spork]
- I did not think it was possible...
- 23:24:59 [davb]
- yeah I thought I had it down
- 23:25:13 [Spork]
- i thought so too =)
- 23:25:48 [Spork]
- lol
- 23:25:55 [Spork]
- nice circuit city commercial
- 23:27:16 [Spork]
- Saveeeee meeee jeeeeebus!!!!!!
- 23:30:29 [ola]
- hi guys!
- 23:30:53 [davb]
- Hi ola!
- 23:31:19 [ola]
- what do you think of my new logo? www.infogettable.net/px-logo-l.gif
- 23:32:01 [davb]
- * davb checks...
- 23:32:09 [ola]
- I made it in image ready...
- 23:32:37 [davb]
- Cool, that is a nice app.
- 23:32:53 [davb]
- The slanted lines in the top look funny.
- 23:33:16 [Spork]
- it's craptacular as bart woulkd say ;)
- 23:33:19 [Spork]
- needs columns
- 23:33:28 [davb]
- it is 2 color? you should anti-alias it and save it in a higher color depth.
- 23:33:48 [davb]
- Notice how the type looks really smooth...
- 23:33:54 [davb]
- Did you create it and shrink it down?
- 23:34:11 [davb]
- * davb has alot to say about digital graphics design... :)
- 23:34:54 [Spork]
- i also have a lot to say
- 23:34:57 [ola]
- I think it's 70 colors and dither 100%...
- 23:34:59 [davb]
- A little hint of columness on the outside might be cool, just a couple lines to suggest it, not a whole column
- 23:34:59 [Spork]
- but I think it will be best said after I sleep
- 23:35:05 [davb]
- heh
- 23:35:13 [davb]
- Hmmmm.
- 23:35:24 [ola]
- but you're right it looks quite craptacular:-)
- 23:35:46 [davb]
- Try it as a jpg to see what happens...
- 23:36:38 [davb]
- Oh yeah, handy tip. If you use type as a main design element, don't just use a stock font. do something to it. Squash it stretch it, change one of the letters around... it is very effective.
- 23:37:02 [davb]
- definitely kern it by hand...
- 23:37:17 [Spork]
- I think after facing two failures in one day I need a nap
- 23:37:34 [davb]
- yes you deserve a nap.
- 23:37:49 [Spork]
- heh
- 23:37:54 [ola]
- So you actually recognized the temple? amazing:-)
- 23:39:05 [ola]
- thanks for the tips! I'll try and redo it tomorrow.
- 23:45:43 [davb]
- np
- 23:51:56 [ola]
- doh! it's almost 1 am. gotta get my beauty sleep. :-))
- 23:52:06 [ola]
- ola has quit ("changing universes")