00:01:15 oh, Spaghetti, or whatever you have. 00:01:23 umm 00:01:25 I can't cook 00:01:29 I was thinking chinese 00:01:34 but then there's the "what to get" 00:01:48 I was thinking dumplings and maybe ribs or something :( 00:03:29 That sounds good. DO you have a buffet chinese place? You can decide and change your mind :) 00:04:14 til has quit 00:04:16 yeah but i'd rather eat home today 00:06:48 i guess I'll call and order 00:08:09 sounds good to me. 00:10:20 :) 00:24:39 * Psychephylax waits 5 min before he goes to get food 00:51:45 docwolf has joined #openacs 00:55:07 ok... the dudes at SuSE are now officially on my shit list. 00:57:08 lol 00:59:06 SuSE personal comes with a crippled samba 00:59:11 it only contains the client portion 00:59:25 and... to add insult to injury, they don't include the graphical samba config tools 01:01:19 lol 01:01:25 use FreeBSD =) 01:01:39 that is wacky. 01:01:44 Its all free right? 01:01:55 sort of... the thing is SuSE skirts the issue 01:02:01 you can't download ISOs from their web site 01:02:08 you can 01:02:16 not the newest ones 01:02:19 I think you just need to find them on a diff site 01:02:20 ah 01:02:24 they always lag by 1 release 01:02:26 (intentionally) 01:02:27 maybe but I could have sworn I've seen them 01:02:42 so.. i actually bought the SuSE disks 01:02:58 Anyway, the actual packages are free so you could intsall them yourself, of course, you didn't want to go finding a bunch or crap, you just want it to work. 01:02:59 You *gasp* actually spent money on a *nix 01:03:04 haha 01:03:09 insane, right? 01:03:13 Very! 01:03:14 ugh 01:03:19 FreeBSD! 01:03:25 but, i just wanted to see "the state of the art" so to speak 01:03:39 linux is getting better, but there are still lots of issues 01:04:28 You would think printing to printers on networked machines would be a pretty common task their customers would want to accomplish. 01:05:02 exactly.. the fact that I couldn't immediately see the other machines on this network is inexcusable 01:05:23 especially annoying b/c that WinME box that I can't print on actually _assigned_ my SuSE box its IP address through DHCP 01:05:30 heh 01:05:31 so, they can see each other... 01:06:11 did i forget to say...freebsd! 01:06:49 it has a nice automatic graphical installer? 01:07:08 SuSE has a great installer 01:07:18 it's just that it blew up the most crucial functions 01:07:35 this samba problem is inexcusable 01:07:40 really, it's pissing me off. 01:07:54 but... it's clear that linux is evolving 01:08:02 because everything else pretty much works as advertised. 01:08:24 (and the fact that KDE now has a _real_ media player, that can play every DVD & MPG i've thrown at it bodes well for linux. 01:09:03 * davb will have to try KDE one of these days. 01:09:04 maybe i should get a fresh copy of samba & recompile it 01:09:24 doesn't SUSE have a spiffy package manager? 01:09:45 yep, but i can't find the latest samba RPM for SuSE 01:09:51 it's like they gave up ;-) 01:10:08 ack. Debian is at least very easy to find the packages. 01:11:47 yeah, debian looks cool 01:11:57 *cough* BSD *cough cough* 01:12:02 heh 01:12:05 ports! 01:12:07 can BSD play my simpsons stuff? 01:12:09 ;-) 01:12:13 what simpsons stuff? 01:12:20 can it work with this super-odd 1400x1050 screen? 01:12:25 BSD can do everything 01:12:38 i should try it 01:12:39 infact, we're so cool we can even emulate Linux 01:13:14 heh 01:13:35 Can someone send me an email to see if its still working? 01:13:40 sure 01:13:43 where to 01:13:44 dave@thedesignexperience.org 01:13:46 thanks! 01:14:34 sent 01:14:47 cool. 01:14:59 I think my DNS/Mail setup is messed up. 01:15:05 heh 01:15:36 Weird. 01:15:46 (something else) 01:17:09 ? 01:17:14 duh! 01:17:19 I didn't create the MX records. 01:18:44 I wonder how long it will take for that to propragate through... 01:19:59 heh 01:20:23 now you know why I am not a professional sysadmin 01:22:01 or even amatuer 01:31:51 me neither 01:33:51 Who's your domain provider 01:33:55 registrar deal 01:34:01 buydomains.com 01:34:07 > thedesignexperience.org 01:34:07 Server: ns3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net 01:34:07 Address: 167.206.112.3 01:34:07 DNS request timed out. 01:34:07 timeout was 2 seconds. 01:34:08 timeout (2 secs) 01:34:10 DNS request timed out. 01:34:12 timeout was 2 seconds. 01:34:14 timeout (2 secs) 01:34:16 *** Request to ns3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net timed-out 01:34:20 not very good 01:34:22 I run the DNS myself. 01:34:28 then you run dns not well! 01:34:46 It was because it wasn't working, so I took everything out, and forgot to put it back in. 01:35:04 Its all in there now, but your ISP is caching the bogus data. 01:35:25 Of course I _gave_ them the bogus data :) 01:36:16 heh 01:36:18 well, then 01:36:22 Ok, 01:36:25 Now I am insane. 01:36:38 The stuff that was broken yesterday is working today 01:36:43 good, but annoying. 01:36:58 the navigation for the chump log works though, thats the good part. 01:40:13 cool 01:40:24 I think I need to write some sort of a socket exploit tool 01:50:00 > thedesignexperience.org 01:50:00 Server: localhost 01:50:00 Address: 127.0.0.1 01:50:00 *** localhost can't find thedesignexperience.org: Non-existent host/domain 01:50:00 > 01:50:03 That's no good 01:51:36 hmmmm 01:51:42 its working for me. 01:51:54 of course I am connected at the hub to the sever :) 01:52:02 :D 01:52:13 I just looked it up from 2 diff name servers so 01:53:09 Yeah, the valid info expired and was replaced with the screwed up info. 01:53:39 so now I have to wait for the invalid info to expire... 01:57:02 docwolf has left #openacs 01:57:20 I was trying to find out how long that was going to take 01:57:23 but 01:57:39 if it's not cached it grabs it off the new server 01:57:48 and as you can see it did not owrk 01:58:17 weird. 01:59:26 aha. 01:59:30 really weird. 01:59:34 ? 02:00:20 can you try again? 02:00:31 It looks like its still using the old server, which makes no sense. 02:00:37 because mail is not working. 02:00:51 docwolf has joined #openacs 02:01:22 well, I probably can't since it probably did cache the wrong info now 02:01:36 heh 02:01:53 Unless you know of other name servers 02:02:31 really weird. 02:02:56 I did a dnsquery from here and it said the old nameserver was the authority. 02:03:03 now 5 mins later its pointing to the new one. 02:03:58 maybe my ISPs nameserver updated... 02:04:51 only for the one domain, the other one is still not updated. 2days it says... 02:06:53 abbaJ has joined #openacs 02:10:07 oh well I have no understanding of DNS. I'll just wait. 02:10:29 lol 02:10:38 It works like a tree 02:10:48 where the root of the tree is the SoA server 02:11:00 yeah I kinda understand that. 02:11:07 The next level of the tree I believe are the regional servers 02:11:19 And afterwards are the ISP ones... 02:11:22 everything else is underneath 02:11:29 thats me! 02:11:37 right 02:12:01 Hang on 02:12:02 :) 02:12:48 http://www.howstuffworks.com/dns.htm 02:12:49 C: http://www.howstuffworks.com/dns.htm from Psychephylax 02:12:53 C:| How DNS works 02:12:53 titled item C 02:12:57 C: A DNS primer 02:12:58 commented item C 02:13:08 cool. 02:13:10 So, instead of me guessing here, I will educate myself by reading that :) 02:16:22 It looks like my ISP is caching my DNS data. 02:17:03 * davb misses his email... 02:17:09 lol 02:22:33 aegrumet has joined #openacs 02:22:51 hi aegrumet 02:22:58 heyas 02:23:42 hey, does oacs have a "url_from_package_id" function (tcl or pl/sql) ? 02:24:16 I don't think so, unless it was in ACS/Tcl... 02:24:26 okay. time to write one. 02:24:43 Can't a package be mounted in more than one location? 02:24:57 yeah; package_id actually refers to a package instance 02:25:03 Oh. 02:25:11 not the best choice of name 02:25:15 ok. 02:25:21 package_key refers to the package 02:25:24 wow 02:25:35 They should get rid of DNS for a day 02:25:36 lol 02:25:38 So if I mount the same bboard at /bboard/foo and subsite/foo there are two different package_ids? 02:25:39 that would be great 02:25:45 Why is that? 02:25:48 so I can get my mail? 02:25:51 everyone would have to memorize a bunch of IP addresses 02:25:52 lol 02:26:12 davb: not sure about your case 02:26:15 but if you do 02:26:30 Ok. I never tried it, just thinking :) 02:26:42 that is two package_id's 02:27:10 ah, I see your point 02:27:34 a package_id may not uniquely specify the url 02:27:57 Perhaps if the caller specified where it was, the proc could figure out which one you were talking about. 02:28:25 for what I'm doing "first_url_from_package_id" is fine 02:28:32 like a context_id of the calling package. 02:28:35 i.e. just need a working url 02:28:39 right. 02:29:02 I was doing that for the keyword stuff I am working on. Assuming it would only be installed once. 02:30:31 The tricky part is if the caller is in one subsite and the other package is in another subsite, but not the main site. 02:30:37 Just mounted the same application to two site nodes. 02:30:47 Still just one package_id. 02:30:53 Scary. 02:31:36 right. it IS the same package. Just accessible at two different URLs 02:31:43 I guess for repeatability I'll do an order by site_node.node_id and take the first row. 02:31:46 argh, that breaks my context_id also :) 02:32:09 if they are both directly under the main site, they will have the same context or whatever. 02:32:41 What do postgres programmers typically do to get connect by? 02:32:59 Perhaps I'll write a stored procedure which 02:33:03 loops through the nodes 02:33:15 building up the url is it goes. 02:33:30 hang on... 02:33:34 http://openacs.org/faq/one?scope=public&faq_id=23#11 02:33:34 D: http://openacs.org/faq/one?scope=public&faq_id=23#11 from davb 02:33:42 D:| Connect by thread 02:33:42 titled item D 02:33:58 D: the triggers have changed. Check the code 02:33:58 commented item D 02:34:12 We have to get some recent examples of how its used up there. 02:34:21 * davb points at the non-existant vinod 02:35:07 Ah, long thread. 02:35:16 The good stuff is at the end... 02:35:29 heh 02:35:31 DNS is cool 02:35:45 kicks the crap out of Oracle and all other database management systems =) 02:36:40 aegrumet: I was going to say. the package looking for the URL of the other package would have to cough up _its_ URL, then the other package could calculate the closest instance of itself. 02:36:49 which is what I think you are saying? 02:37:37 packages/static-pages/sql/postgresql/static-pages-create.sql has some examples. So does packages/acs-content-repository/sql/postgresql/content-create.sql 02:38:04 of the connect by replacement 02:38:18 okay I'm looking at this stuff 02:38:50 So much stuff to do 02:38:55 * davb types too much again :) 02:38:58 * Psychephylax wanders off to attemtp cleaning his room 02:42:44 Okay I can see that the site nodes are backed up by the postgres tree maintenance triggers 02:42:56 [GlobalNotice] Hi all. We're getting ready for another conversion attempt which we hope will occur sometime before 06.00 OPN time (UTC). Various problems, including a serious hash table corruption problem, have been resolved. The test net is currently up on irc.openprojects.net:9000, but the latest services database has not yet been converted. 02:43:07 so just a matter of getting the query right 02:43:15 by looking at other examples 02:44:10 [GlobalNotice] We believe that various access list conversion problems will be resolved this time around. We'll keep you posted on status. Thanks for your patience and thank you for using OPN. 02:53:14 * Psychephylax pokes Dave 02:53:16 you alive? 02:54:53 ow! 02:55:07 I have a dilemma 02:57:18 I am in need of strengthening my programming skills and I do not know where to start...I have all the books I could possibly want and I can pretty much start from C,C++,Java however, I am not sure what would be the wise way of doing it...Learning C followed by Java then C++ or something else 02:57:45 I also eventually want to master Oracle and a scripting language or two ... then get my consulting job and be happy =) 02:58:19 i was thinking Perl and PHP for scripting ;) 02:58:19 I find that the best way to learn a new language is when it helps me solve some problem I've been itching to solve 02:58:39 Right...but I am very bad at thinking up problems to solve 02:59:41 heh... 03:00:34 i hate how most books start of with "This is how your computer works..." and "this is an if statement..." 03:04:11 Start with Python. 03:04:43 Neither C++ or Java are good introductory programming languages. 03:05:22 C could be, but I'd start with Python and move to C. 03:09:58 i learned to program with pascal on a vax. And look at how well i turned out. ahem. 03:10:30 I leaned how to program with BASIC on an apple II plus. 03:10:40 I was probably a better programmer back then :P 03:11:54 I learned BASIC on a 1 Kb machine with silicon keys in Brazil. 03:13:05 i am actually installing kylix as we speak 03:13:12 why? 03:13:12 i am feeling nostalgic :-) 03:13:34 and i'm still a borland shareholder. want to see what tehy are up to. 03:14:16 docwolf has quit 03:14:54 Ah, I see from http://www.borland.com/kylix/ that Borland has bought into the Web Services religion 03:15:26 docwolf has joined #openacs 03:15:44 Psychephylax: haven't you learned to program already? 03:16:01 I mean the basics. 03:16:28 try this: 03:16:50 http://diveintopython.org 03:16:50 E: http://diveintopython.org from davb 03:16:58 E:|Python for experienced programmers 03:16:59 titled item E 03:17:24 diveintopython is cool 03:18:06 did someone say python :) 03:19:17 * rbm raises hand 03:19:40 If Python had a block delimiter it would be the perfect language. 03:20:07 Besides that peeve I have, I love everything else in the language. 03:22:51 heh 03:22:59 sorry, called one of my friends from High School for kicks 03:23:10 Dave, define "learned to program" 03:27:18 wow. delphi isn't the Turbo Pascal I remembered. 03:28:00 heh 03:28:12 kylix really looks good. I'm shocked. 03:31:06 Psychephylax: lets see... I know I haven't learned yet, so I am not quite sure how to describe it... 03:31:13 lol 03:31:16 Delphi/Kylix is very popular in Brazil. Almost viral. 03:31:21 rbm: python with a block delimiter and some more oo would be ruby 03:31:24 * davb programmed turbo pascal back in the day. 03:31:25 docwolf: Ready to start building a Web Services-enabled e-business? 03:31:39 hazmat: Ruby looks cool, someone is putting it into aolserver. 03:32:15 i hope they start with the swig bindings in the pywx, it would automate alot of the tedious work. 03:32:28 davb, do you have a link? 03:32:47 O 03:32:50 http://sourceforge.net/projects/nsruby 03:32:51 F: http://sourceforge.net/projects/nsruby from davb 03:32:55 I'll be back in a bit, going to call my other firend in college 03:33:05 cool 03:33:06 F:| NSRuby project - Ruby as AOLserver module 03:33:06 titled item F 03:33:39 rbm: why is delphi so popular? 03:33:39 ruby is in the japanese foundry on sf... i didn't even know there was a japanese foundry... 03:33:42 my plan was to learn Python, Java, C, then branch out. 03:34:03 me neither, I am pretty sure it did not say that last time I looked. 03:34:20 do you guys still think aolserver will be worthwile with apache 2.0 coming out? 03:34:30 docwolf: I'm not sure. I just know it is. 03:34:37 abbaJ: Yes. 03:34:42 i've got some friends who are going to stop programming in python and move over to lisp. 03:34:56 rbm: I'm not trolling, I'm just asking 03:35:09 why do you think so? 03:35:11 abbaJ: I'm not trolling, I'm just answering :) 03:35:16 ok 03:35:23 What will Apache 2.0 offer? 03:35:25 i just don't want it takent the wrong way 03:35:26 hehe 03:35:38 well 03:35:39 what AOLserver offered in 1994 03:35:44 exactly 03:35:51 because apache 2.0 is more about architectural changes than changes to what it offers to a programmer 03:35:57 with a bunch more bugs 03:36:36 rbm: apache certainly has a lot more programmers working to debug it tho 03:36:51 I think it's nice that Apache is going multithreaded. It's going to help in many areas. 03:36:54 abbaJ: Indeed. 03:37:00 so I wonder 03:37:08 if aolserver will still be worthwhile 03:37:10 abbaJ: That is its blessing and curse at the same time. 03:37:29 I've used it for quite a while w/ acs/openacs 03:37:36 well its not entirely multithreaded... its designed to have different run time environments based on platform specific performance considerations for threading vs. process models... 03:38:05 abbaJ: Apache, with its "voting system" is a huge mess inside already. I haven't looked at 2.0, but my guess is that it'll be worse just because multithreaded code is harder to do, especially when the app wasn't born threaded. 03:38:34 abbaJ: apache 2.0 won't offer any of the persistent db connections, shared data structures, or extensive scriptable api that aolserver does out of the box... 03:38:42 rbm: you really think it will be more buggy than aolserver? I mean, apache has proven itself to be very reliable.. 03:38:52 abbaJ: So has AOLserver. 03:38:59 I'm not doubting that 03:39:19 but if I've got two webserver's that do the same thing and one ha s amuch larger community to draw from 03:39:21 abbaJ: Not so much buggy, but messier. It is messy already. 03:39:46 abbaJ: Apache won't do the same that AOLserver does. 03:39:48 I'm just asking what the reasons are for staying with apache 03:39:54 abbaJ: apache has proven itself reliable only through going through many versions and fixes.... i'm not sure that really counts as more reliable, perhaps better tested, the move to a completely new architecture changes the map of reliability since it must undergo the test of time. 03:40:15 rbm: what kind of things? 03:40:17 how many bugs/holes have their been in apache vs. aolserver, the differential is astounding. 03:40:36 abbaJ: What hazmat just said: " abbaJ: apache 2.0 won't offer any of the persistent db connections, shared data structures, or extensive scriptable api that aolserver does out of 03:40:37 the box.." 03:40:50 * davb nods 03:40:53 those things are done in modules in apache right? 03:40:53 rbm: actually the apache2.0 source code is fairly clean. 03:41:05 hazmat: Really? Cool. 03:41:12 Nice to know. 03:41:27 the aolserver source code is amazing, imo. i've learned a bunch from it. 03:41:40 * rbm nods violently 03:42:00 It is pretty. 03:42:51 Yes. I actually can understand how ns_xml works. I went throught the code yesterday and investigated the C API. I know nothing about C, but it was very educational. 03:43:49 C is very clean. 03:44:00 hazmat_works has joined #openacs 03:44:22 playing around with xchat. 03:47:09 * rbm hands hazmat epic4+Light 03:47:31 hey, xchat is python scriptable... 03:47:45 * hazmat googles epic4 03:50:10 just compiled my first pascal app in over a decade. 03:50:14 hooray for me. 03:50:46 doc_wolf := "leet"; 03:56:06 heh 03:56:14 * Psychephylax has fun calling his friends in colleges 04:08:51 any debian users? 04:09:35 me. 04:09:38 rbm is a big fan of debian 04:10:53 i've been thinking about installing it now that i have a new box to play with... i've always had problems before. i've been debating www.gentoo.org or debian. 04:11:44 davb: are you happy with debian? 04:12:59 yes. 04:13:24 I wish I had known what I was doing when I installed it :) 04:13:29 * hazmat starts tinkering with his new box.. hazmat is a geek :) 04:13:47 I also hear Suse is very good. 04:14:16 i've been using suse for a long time, and i'm pretty happy with it, but i end up installing everything by source. 04:14:41 i'm ready to move on to one of these distros with automatic package installation and dependency resolution. 04:15:08 i played around with freebsd and the ports system, but i think i'd like to stick to a linux distro. 04:16:10 mainly because if i setup a client box, i want it to be very easy to adminster and update (why i want real package management) 04:16:26 hazmat: apt is very nice. I recommend you do what rbm does. use dselect to find out which packges it plans on installing/upgrading and double checking. 04:19:15 http://distro.conectiva.com.br/projetos/46/ 04:19:16 A: http://distro.conectiva.com.br/projetos/46/ from hazmat 04:20:09 A: gui frontend for apt 04:20:09 commented item A 04:20:14 that looks very cool. 04:20:28 Except I don't install X on my servers :( 04:21:48 :) 04:25:41 does anyone think there is a real market for a web site management product that runs on the desktop, and generates static html which it FTPs to the server? 04:25:50 besides FrontPage that is :) 04:26:25 docwolf has quit 04:28:49 i emailed richard li re the cr, re his message on the bboard, he's seems to think that architecturally its ok to have all your blobs in one table. 04:29:44 quote 04:29:59 I don't think that the idea of having a single table for all 04:30:01