IRC log of openacs on 2001-11-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:01:15 [davb]

oh, Spaghetti, or whatever you have.

00:01:23 [Psychephylax]

umm

00:01:25 [Psychephylax]

I can't cook

00:01:29 [Psychephylax]

I was thinking chinese

00:01:34 [Psychephylax]

but then there's the "what to get"

00:01:48 [Psychephylax]

I was thinking dumplings and maybe ribs or something :(

00:03:29 [davb]

That sounds good. DO you have a buffet chinese place? You can decide and change your mind :)

00:04:14 [til]

til has quit

00:04:16 [Psychephylax]

yeah but i'd rather eat home today

00:06:48 [Psychephylax]

i guess I'll call and order

00:08:09 [davb]

sounds good to me.

00:10:20 [Psychephylax]

:)

00:24:39 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax waits 5 min before he goes to get food

00:51:45 [docwolf]

docwolf has joined #openacs

00:55:07 [docwolf]

ok... the dudes at SuSE are now officially on my shit list.

00:57:08 [Psychephylax]

lol

00:59:06 [docwolf]

SuSE personal comes with a crippled samba

00:59:11 [docwolf]

it only contains the client portion

00:59:25 [docwolf]

and... to add insult to injury, they don't include the graphical samba config tools

01:01:19 [Psychephylax]

lol

01:01:25 [Psychephylax]

use FreeBSD =)

01:01:39 [davb]

that is wacky.

01:01:44 [davb]

Its all free right?

01:01:55 [docwolf]

sort of... the thing is SuSE skirts the issue

01:02:01 [docwolf]

you can't download ISOs from their web site

01:02:08 [Psychephylax]

you can

01:02:16 [docwolf]

not the newest ones

01:02:19 [Psychephylax]

I think you just need to find them on a diff site

01:02:20 [Psychephylax]

ah

01:02:24 [docwolf]

they always lag by 1 release

01:02:26 [docwolf]

(intentionally)

01:02:27 [Psychephylax]

maybe but I could have sworn I've seen them

01:02:42 [docwolf]

so.. i actually bought the SuSE disks

01:02:58 [davb]

Anyway, the actual packages are free so you could intsall them yourself, of course, you didn't want to go finding a bunch or crap, you just want it to work.

01:02:59 [Psychephylax]

You *gasp* actually spent money on a *nix

01:03:04 [docwolf]

haha

01:03:09 [docwolf]

insane, right?

01:03:13 [Psychephylax]

Very!

01:03:14 [Psychephylax]

ugh

01:03:19 [Psychephylax]

FreeBSD!

01:03:25 [docwolf]

but, i just wanted to see "the state of the art" so to speak

01:03:39 [docwolf]

linux is getting better, but there are still lots of issues

01:04:28 [davb]

You would think printing to printers on networked machines would be a pretty common task their customers would want to accomplish.

01:05:02 [docwolf]

exactly.. the fact that I couldn't immediately see the other machines on this network is inexcusable

01:05:23 [docwolf]

especially annoying b/c that WinME box that I can't print on actually _assigned_ my SuSE box its IP address through DHCP

01:05:30 [davb]

heh

01:05:31 [docwolf]

so, they can see each other...

01:06:11 [Psychephylax]

did i forget to say...freebsd!

01:06:49 [davb]

it has a nice automatic graphical installer?

01:07:08 [docwolf]

SuSE has a great installer

01:07:18 [docwolf]

it's just that it blew up the most crucial functions

01:07:35 [docwolf]

this samba problem is inexcusable

01:07:40 [docwolf]

really, it's pissing me off.

01:07:54 [docwolf]

but... it's clear that linux is evolving

01:08:02 [docwolf]

because everything else pretty much works as advertised.

01:08:24 [docwolf]

(and the fact that KDE now has a _real_ media player, that can play every DVD & MPG i've thrown at it bodes well for linux.

01:09:03 [davb]

* davb will have to try KDE one of these days.

01:09:04 [docwolf]

maybe i should get a fresh copy of samba & recompile it

01:09:24 [davb]

doesn't SUSE have a spiffy package manager?

01:09:45 [docwolf]

yep, but i can't find the latest samba RPM for SuSE

01:09:51 [docwolf]

it's like they gave up ;-)

01:10:08 [davb]

ack. Debian is at least very easy to find the packages.

01:11:47 [docwolf]

yeah, debian looks cool

01:11:57 [Psychephylax]

*cough* BSD *cough cough*

01:12:02 [docwolf]

heh

01:12:05 [Psychephylax]

ports!

01:12:07 [docwolf]

can BSD play my simpsons stuff?

01:12:09 [docwolf]

;-)

01:12:13 [Psychephylax]

what simpsons stuff?

01:12:20 [docwolf]

can it work with this super-odd 1400x1050 screen?

01:12:25 [Psychephylax]

BSD can do everything

01:12:38 [docwolf]

i should try it

01:12:39 [Psychephylax]

infact, we're so cool we can even emulate Linux

01:13:14 [davb]

heh

01:13:35 [davb]

Can someone send me an email to see if its still working?

01:13:40 [Psychephylax]

sure

01:13:43 [Psychephylax]

where to

01:13:44 [davb]

dave@thedesignexperience.org

01:13:46 [davb]

thanks!

01:14:34 [Psychephylax]

sent

01:14:47 [davb]

cool.

01:14:59 [davb]

I think my DNS/Mail setup is messed up.

01:15:05 [Psychephylax]

heh

01:15:36 [davb]

Weird.

01:15:46 [davb]

(something else)

01:17:09 [Psychephylax]

?

01:17:14 [davb]

duh!

01:17:19 [davb]

I didn't create the MX records.

01:18:44 [davb]

I wonder how long it will take for that to propragate through...

01:19:59 [Psychephylax]

heh

01:20:23 [davb]

now you know why I am not a professional sysadmin

01:22:01 [davb]

or even amatuer

01:31:51 [Psychephylax]

me neither

01:33:51 [Psychephylax]

Who's your domain provider

01:33:55 [Psychephylax]

registrar deal

01:34:01 [davb]

buydomains.com

01:34:07 [Psychephylax]

> thedesignexperience.org

01:34:07 [Psychephylax]

Server: ns3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net

01:34:07 [Psychephylax]

Address: 167.206.112.3

01:34:07 [Psychephylax]

DNS request timed out.

01:34:07 [Psychephylax]

timeout was 2 seconds.

01:34:08 [Psychephylax]

timeout (2 secs)

01:34:10 [Psychephylax]

DNS request timed out.

01:34:12 [Psychephylax]

timeout was 2 seconds.

01:34:14 [Psychephylax]

timeout (2 secs)

01:34:16 [Psychephylax]

*** Request to ns3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net timed-out

01:34:20 [Psychephylax]

not very good

01:34:22 [davb]

I run the DNS myself.

01:34:28 [Psychephylax]

then you run dns not well!

01:34:46 [davb]

It was because it wasn't working, so I took everything out, and forgot to put it back in.

01:35:04 [davb]

Its all in there now, but your ISP is caching the bogus data.

01:35:25 [davb]

Of course I _gave_ them the bogus data :)

01:36:16 [Psychephylax]

heh

01:36:18 [Psychephylax]

well, then

01:36:22 [davb]

Ok,

01:36:25 [davb]

Now I am insane.

01:36:38 [davb]

The stuff that was broken yesterday is working today

01:36:43 [davb]

good, but annoying.

01:36:58 [davb]

the navigation for the chump log works though, thats the good part.

01:40:13 [Psychephylax]

cool

01:40:24 [Psychephylax]

I think I need to write some sort of a socket exploit tool

01:50:00 [Psychephylax]

> thedesignexperience.org

01:50:00 [Psychephylax]

Server: localhost

01:50:00 [Psychephylax]

Address: 127.0.0.1

01:50:00 [Psychephylax]

*** localhost can't find thedesignexperience.org: Non-existent host/domain

01:50:00 [Psychephylax]

>

01:50:03 [Psychephylax]

That's no good

01:51:36 [davb]

hmmmm

01:51:42 [davb]

its working for me.

01:51:54 [davb]

of course I am connected at the hub to the sever :)

01:52:02 [Psychephylax]

:D

01:52:13 [Psychephylax]

I just looked it up from 2 diff name servers so

01:53:09 [davb]

Yeah, the valid info expired and was replaced with the screwed up info.

01:53:39 [davb]

so now I have to wait for the invalid info to expire...

01:57:02 [docwolf]

docwolf has left #openacs

01:57:20 [Psychephylax]

I was trying to find out how long that was going to take

01:57:23 [Psychephylax]

but

01:57:39 [Psychephylax]

if it's not cached it grabs it off the new server

01:57:48 [Psychephylax]

and as you can see it did not owrk

01:58:17 [davb]

weird.

01:59:26 [davb]

aha.

01:59:30 [davb]

really weird.

01:59:34 [Psychephylax]

?

02:00:20 [davb]

can you try again?

02:00:31 [davb]

It looks like its still using the old server, which makes no sense.

02:00:37 [davb]

because mail is not working.

02:00:51 [docwolf]

docwolf has joined #openacs

02:01:22 [Psychephylax]

well, I probably can't since it probably did cache the wrong info now

02:01:36 [davb]

heh

02:01:53 [Psychephylax]

Unless you know of other name servers

02:02:31 [davb]

really weird.

02:02:56 [davb]

I did a dnsquery from here and it said the old nameserver was the authority.

02:03:03 [davb]

now 5 mins later its pointing to the new one.

02:03:58 [davb]

maybe my ISPs nameserver updated...

02:04:51 [davb]

only for the one domain, the other one is still not updated. 2days it says...

02:06:53 [abbaJ]

abbaJ has joined #openacs

02:10:07 [davb]

oh well I have no understanding of DNS. I'll just wait.

02:10:29 [Psychephylax]

lol

02:10:38 [Psychephylax]

It works like a tree

02:10:48 [Psychephylax]

where the root of the tree is the SoA server

02:11:00 [davb]

yeah I kinda understand that.

02:11:07 [Psychephylax]

The next level of the tree I believe are the regional servers

02:11:19 [Psychephylax]

And afterwards are the ISP ones...

02:11:22 [Psychephylax]

everything else is underneath

02:11:29 [davb]

thats me!

02:11:37 [Psychephylax]

right

02:12:01 [Psychephylax]

Hang on

02:12:02 [Psychephylax]

:)

02:12:48 [Psychephylax]

http://www.howstuffworks.com/dns.htm

02:12:49 [chump]

C: http://www.howstuffworks.com/dns.htm from Psychephylax

02:12:53 [Psychephylax]

C:| How DNS works

02:12:53 [chump]

titled item C

02:12:57 [Psychephylax]

C: A DNS primer

02:12:58 [chump]

commented item C

02:13:08 [davb]

cool.

02:13:10 [Psychephylax]

So, instead of me guessing here, I will educate myself by reading that :)

02:16:22 [davb]

It looks like my ISP is caching my DNS data.

02:17:03 [davb]

* davb misses his email...

02:17:09 [Psychephylax]

lol

02:22:33 [aegrumet]

aegrumet has joined #openacs

02:22:51 [davb]

hi aegrumet

02:22:58 [aegrumet]

heyas

02:23:42 [aegrumet]

hey, does oacs have a "url_from_package_id" function (tcl or pl/sql) ?

02:24:16 [davb]

I don't think so, unless it was in ACS/Tcl...

02:24:26 [aegrumet]

okay. time to write one.

02:24:43 [davb]

Can't a package be mounted in more than one location?

02:24:57 [aegrumet]

yeah; package_id actually refers to a package instance

02:25:03 [davb]

Oh.

02:25:11 [aegrumet]

not the best choice of name

02:25:15 [davb]

ok.

02:25:21 [aegrumet]

package_key refers to the package

02:25:24 [Psychephylax]

wow

02:25:35 [Psychephylax]

They should get rid of DNS for a day

02:25:36 [Psychephylax]

lol

02:25:38 [davb]

So if I mount the same bboard at /bboard/foo and subsite/foo there are two different package_ids?

02:25:39 [Psychephylax]

that would be great

02:25:45 [davb]

Why is that?

02:25:48 [davb]

so I can get my mail?

02:25:51 [Psychephylax]

everyone would have to memorize a bunch of IP addresses

02:25:52 [Psychephylax]

lol

02:26:12 [aegrumet]

davb: not sure about your case

02:26:15 [aegrumet]

but if you do

02:26:30 [davb]

Ok. I never tried it, just thinking :)

02:26:42 [aegrumet]

that is two package_id's

02:27:10 [aegrumet]

ah, I see your point

02:27:34 [aegrumet]

a package_id may not uniquely specify the url

02:27:57 [davb]

Perhaps if the caller specified where it was, the proc could figure out which one you were talking about.

02:28:25 [aegrumet]

for what I'm doing "first_url_from_package_id" is fine

02:28:32 [davb]

like a context_id of the calling package.

02:28:35 [aegrumet]

i.e. just need a working url

02:28:39 [davb]

right.

02:29:02 [davb]

I was doing that for the keyword stuff I am working on. Assuming it would only be installed once.

02:30:31 [davb]

The tricky part is if the caller is in one subsite and the other package is in another subsite, but not the main site.

02:30:37 [aegrumet]

Just mounted the same application to two site nodes.

02:30:47 [aegrumet]

Still just one package_id.

02:30:53 [aegrumet]

Scary.

02:31:36 [davb]

right. it IS the same package. Just accessible at two different URLs

02:31:43 [aegrumet]

I guess for repeatability I'll do an order by site_node.node_id and take the first row.

02:31:46 [davb]

argh, that breaks my context_id also :)

02:32:09 [davb]

if they are both directly under the main site, they will have the same context or whatever.

02:32:41 [aegrumet]

What do postgres programmers typically do to get connect by?

02:32:59 [aegrumet]

Perhaps I'll write a stored procedure which

02:33:03 [aegrumet]

loops through the nodes

02:33:15 [aegrumet]

building up the url is it goes.

02:33:30 [davb]

hang on...

02:33:34 [davb]

http://openacs.org/faq/one?scope=public&faq_id=23#11

02:33:34 [chump]

D: http://openacs.org/faq/one?scope=public&faq_id=23#11 from davb

02:33:42 [davb]

D:| Connect by thread

02:33:42 [chump]

titled item D

02:33:58 [davb]

D: the triggers have changed. Check the code

02:33:58 [chump]

commented item D

02:34:12 [davb]

We have to get some recent examples of how its used up there.

02:34:21 [davb]

* davb points at the non-existant vinod

02:35:07 [aegrumet]

Ah, long thread.

02:35:16 [davb]

The good stuff is at the end...

02:35:29 [Psychephylax]

heh

02:35:31 [Psychephylax]

DNS is cool

02:35:45 [Psychephylax]

kicks the crap out of Oracle and all other database management systems =)

02:36:40 [davb]

aegrumet: I was going to say. the package looking for the URL of the other package would have to cough up _its_ URL, then the other package could calculate the closest instance of itself.

02:36:49 [davb]

which is what I think you are saying?

02:37:37 [davb]

packages/static-pages/sql/postgresql/static-pages-create.sql has some examples. So does packages/acs-content-repository/sql/postgresql/content-create.sql

02:38:04 [davb]

of the connect by replacement

02:38:18 [aegrumet]

okay I'm looking at this stuff

02:38:50 [Psychephylax]

So much stuff to do

02:38:55 [davb]

* davb types too much again :)

02:38:58 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax wanders off to attemtp cleaning his room

02:42:44 [aegrumet]

Okay I can see that the site nodes are backed up by the postgres tree maintenance triggers

02:42:56 [lilo]

[GlobalNotice] Hi all. We're getting ready for another conversion attempt which we hope will occur sometime before 06.00 OPN time (UTC). Various problems, including a serious hash table corruption problem, have been resolved. The test net is currently up on irc.openprojects.net:9000, but the latest services database has not yet been converted.

02:43:07 [aegrumet]

so just a matter of getting the query right

02:43:15 [aegrumet]

by looking at other examples

02:44:10 [lilo]

[GlobalNotice] We believe that various access list conversion problems will be resolved this time around. We'll keep you posted on status. Thanks for your patience and thank you for using OPN.

02:53:14 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax pokes Dave

02:53:16 [Psychephylax]

you alive?

02:54:53 [davb]

ow!

02:55:07 [Psychephylax]

I have a dilemma

02:57:18 [Psychephylax]

I am in need of strengthening my programming skills and I do not know where to start...I have all the books I could possibly want and I can pretty much start from C,C++,Java however, I am not sure what would be the wise way of doing it...Learning C followed by Java then C++ or something else

02:57:45 [Psychephylax]

I also eventually want to master Oracle and a scripting language or two ... then get my consulting job and be happy =)

02:58:19 [Psychephylax]

i was thinking Perl and PHP for scripting ;)

02:58:19 [aegrumet]

I find that the best way to learn a new language is when it helps me solve some problem I've been itching to solve

02:58:39 [Psychephylax]

Right...but I am very bad at thinking up problems to solve

02:59:41 [davb]

heh...

03:00:34 [Psychephylax]

i hate how most books start of with "This is how your computer works..." and "this is an if statement..."

03:04:11 [rbm]

Start with Python.

03:04:43 [rbm]

Neither C++ or Java are good introductory programming languages.

03:05:22 [rbm]

C could be, but I'd start with Python and move to C.

03:09:58 [docwolf]

i learned to program with pascal on a vax. And look at how well i turned out. ahem.

03:10:30 [aegrumet]

I leaned how to program with BASIC on an apple II plus.

03:10:40 [aegrumet]

I was probably a better programmer back then :P

03:11:54 [rbm]

I learned BASIC on a 1 Kb machine with silicon keys in Brazil.

03:13:05 [docwolf]

i am actually installing kylix as we speak

03:13:12 [rbm]

why?

03:13:12 [docwolf]

i am feeling nostalgic :-)

03:13:34 [docwolf]

and i'm still a borland shareholder. want to see what tehy are up to.

03:14:16 [docwolf]

docwolf has quit

03:14:54 [aegrumet]

Ah, I see from http://www.borland.com/kylix/ that Borland has bought into the Web Services religion

03:15:26 [docwolf]

docwolf has joined #openacs

03:15:44 [davb]

Psychephylax: haven't you learned to program already?

03:16:01 [davb]

I mean the basics.

03:16:28 [davb]

try this:

03:16:50 [davb]

http://diveintopython.org

03:16:50 [chump]

E: http://diveintopython.org from davb

03:16:58 [davb]

E:|Python for experienced programmers

03:16:59 [chump]

titled item E

03:17:24 [rbm]

diveintopython is cool

03:18:06 [hazmat]

did someone say python :)

03:19:17 [rbm]

* rbm raises hand

03:19:40 [rbm]

If Python had a block delimiter it would be the perfect language.

03:20:07 [rbm]

Besides that peeve I have, I love everything else in the language.

03:22:51 [Psychephylax]

heh

03:22:59 [Psychephylax]

sorry, called one of my friends from High School for kicks

03:23:10 [Psychephylax]

Dave, define "learned to program"

03:27:18 [docwolf]

wow. delphi isn't the Turbo Pascal I remembered.

03:28:00 [Psychephylax]

heh

03:28:12 [docwolf]

kylix really looks good. I'm shocked.

03:31:06 [davb]

Psychephylax: lets see... I know I haven't learned yet, so I am not quite sure how to describe it...

03:31:13 [Psychephylax]

lol

03:31:16 [rbm]

Delphi/Kylix is very popular in Brazil. Almost viral.

03:31:21 [hazmat]

rbm: python with a block delimiter and some more oo would be ruby

03:31:24 [davb]

* davb programmed turbo pascal back in the day.

03:31:25 [aegrumet]

docwolf: Ready to start building a Web Services-enabled e-business?

03:31:39 [davb]

hazmat: Ruby looks cool, someone is putting it into aolserver.

03:32:15 [hazmat]

i hope they start with the swig bindings in the pywx, it would automate alot of the tedious work.

03:32:28 [hazmat]

davb, do you have a link?

03:32:47 [Psychephylax]

O

03:32:50 [davb]

http://sourceforge.net/projects/nsruby

03:32:51 [chump]

F: http://sourceforge.net/projects/nsruby from davb

03:32:55 [Psychephylax]

I'll be back in a bit, going to call my other firend in college

03:33:05 [hazmat]

cool

03:33:06 [davb]

F:| NSRuby project - Ruby as AOLserver module

03:33:06 [chump]

titled item F

03:33:39 [docwolf]

rbm: why is delphi so popular?

03:33:39 [hazmat]

ruby is in the japanese foundry on sf... i didn't even know there was a japanese foundry...

03:33:42 [davb]

my plan was to learn Python, Java, C, then branch out.

03:34:03 [davb]

me neither, I am pretty sure it did not say that last time I looked.

03:34:20 [abbaJ]

do you guys still think aolserver will be worthwile with apache 2.0 coming out?

03:34:30 [rbm]

docwolf: I'm not sure. I just know it is.

03:34:37 [rbm]

abbaJ: Yes.

03:34:42 [hazmat]

i've got some friends who are going to stop programming in python and move over to lisp.

03:34:56 [abbaJ]

rbm: I'm not trolling, I'm just asking

03:35:09 [abbaJ]

why do you think so?

03:35:11 [rbm]

abbaJ: I'm not trolling, I'm just answering :)

03:35:16 [abbaJ]

ok

03:35:23 [davb]

What will Apache 2.0 offer?

03:35:25 [abbaJ]

i just don't want it takent the wrong way

03:35:26 [abbaJ]

hehe

03:35:38 [abbaJ]

well

03:35:39 [rbm]

what AOLserver offered in 1994

03:35:44 [abbaJ]

exactly

03:35:51 [hazmat]

because apache 2.0 is more about architectural changes than changes to what it offers to a programmer

03:35:57 [rbm]

with a bunch more bugs

03:36:36 [abbaJ]

rbm: apache certainly has a lot more programmers working to debug it tho

03:36:51 [rbm]

I think it's nice that Apache is going multithreaded. It's going to help in many areas.

03:36:54 [rbm]

abbaJ: Indeed.

03:37:00 [abbaJ]

so I wonder

03:37:08 [abbaJ]

if aolserver will still be worthwhile

03:37:10 [rbm]

abbaJ: That is its blessing and curse at the same time.

03:37:29 [abbaJ]

I've used it for quite a while w/ acs/openacs

03:37:36 [hazmat]

well its not entirely multithreaded... its designed to have different run time environments based on platform specific performance considerations for threading vs. process models...

03:38:05 [rbm]

abbaJ: Apache, with its "voting system" is a huge mess inside already. I haven't looked at 2.0, but my guess is that it'll be worse just because multithreaded code is harder to do, especially when the app wasn't born threaded.

03:38:34 [hazmat]

abbaJ: apache 2.0 won't offer any of the persistent db connections, shared data structures, or extensive scriptable api that aolserver does out of the box...

03:38:42 [abbaJ]

rbm: you really think it will be more buggy than aolserver? I mean, apache has proven itself to be very reliable..

03:38:52 [rbm]

abbaJ: So has AOLserver.

03:38:59 [abbaJ]

I'm not doubting that

03:39:19 [abbaJ]

but if I've got two webserver's that do the same thing and one ha s amuch larger community to draw from

03:39:21 [rbm]

abbaJ: Not so much buggy, but messier. It is messy already.

03:39:46 [rbm]

abbaJ: Apache won't do the same that AOLserver does.

03:39:48 [abbaJ]

I'm just asking what the reasons are for staying with apache

03:39:54 [hazmat]

abbaJ: apache has proven itself reliable only through going through many versions and fixes.... i'm not sure that really counts as more reliable, perhaps better tested, the move to a completely new architecture changes the map of reliability since it must undergo the test of time.

03:40:15 [abbaJ]

rbm: what kind of things?

03:40:17 [hazmat]

how many bugs/holes have their been in apache vs. aolserver, the differential is astounding.

03:40:36 [rbm]

abbaJ: What hazmat just said: "<hazmat> abbaJ: apache 2.0 won't offer any of the persistent db connections, shared data structures, or extensive scriptable api that aolserver does out of

03:40:37 [rbm]

the box.."

03:40:50 [davb]

* davb nods

03:40:53 [abbaJ]

those things are done in modules in apache right?

03:40:53 [hazmat]

rbm: actually the apache2.0 source code is fairly clean.

03:41:05 [rbm]

hazmat: Really? Cool.

03:41:12 [rbm]

Nice to know.

03:41:27 [hazmat]

the aolserver source code is amazing, imo. i've learned a bunch from it.

03:41:40 [rbm]

* rbm nods violently

03:42:00 [rbm]

It is pretty.

03:42:51 [davb]

Yes. I actually can understand how ns_xml works. I went throught the code yesterday and investigated the C API. I know nothing about C, but it was very educational.

03:43:49 [rbm]

C is very clean.

03:44:00 [hazmat_works]

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03:44:22 [hazmat]

playing around with xchat.

03:47:09 [rbm]

* rbm hands hazmat epic4+Light

03:47:31 [hazmat]

hey, xchat is python scriptable...

03:47:45 [hazmat]

* hazmat googles epic4

03:50:10 [docwolf]

just compiled my first pascal app in over a decade.

03:50:14 [docwolf]

hooray for me.

03:50:46 [docwolf]

doc_wolf := "leet";

03:56:06 [Psychephylax]

heh

03:56:14 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax has fun calling his friends in colleges

04:08:51 [hazmat]

any debian users?

04:09:35 [davb]

me.

04:09:38 [docwolf]

rbm is a big fan of debian

04:10:53 [hazmat]

i've been thinking about installing it now that i have a new box to play with... i've always had problems before. i've been debating www.gentoo.org or debian.

04:11:44 [hazmat]

davb: are you happy with debian?

04:12:59 [davb]

yes.

04:13:24 [davb]

I wish I had known what I was doing when I installed it :)

04:13:29 [hazmat]

* hazmat starts tinkering with his new box.. hazmat is a geek :)

04:13:47 [davb]

I also hear Suse is very good.

04:14:16 [hazmat]

i've been using suse for a long time, and i'm pretty happy with it, but i end up installing everything by source.

04:14:41 [hazmat]

i'm ready to move on to one of these distros with automatic package installation and dependency resolution.

04:15:08 [hazmat]

i played around with freebsd and the ports system, but i think i'd like to stick to a linux distro.

04:16:10 [hazmat]

mainly because if i setup a client box, i want it to be very easy to adminster and update (why i want real package management)

04:16:26 [davb]

hazmat: apt is very nice. I recommend you do what rbm does. use dselect to find out which packges it plans on installing/upgrading and double checking.

04:19:15 [hazmat]

http://distro.conectiva.com.br/projetos/46/

04:19:16 [chump]

A: http://distro.conectiva.com.br/projetos/46/ from hazmat

04:20:09 [hazmat]

A: gui frontend for apt

04:20:09 [chump]

commented item A

04:20:14 [davb]

that looks very cool.

04:20:28 [davb]

Except I don't install X on my servers :(

04:21:48 [hazmat]

:)

04:25:41 [davb]

does anyone think there is a real market for a web site management product that runs on the desktop, and generates static html which it FTPs to the server?

04:25:50 [davb]

besides FrontPage that is :)

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04:28:49 [hazmat]

i emailed richard li re the cr, re his message on the bboard, he's seems to think that architecturally its ok to have all your blobs in one table.

04:29:44 [hazmat]

quote

04:29:59 [hazmat]

I don't think that the idea of having a single table for all

04:30:01 [hazmat]

your

04:30:02 [hazmat]

BLOBs is intrinsically unscalable, though.

04:30:18 [davb]

Thats good to know. I am using all "text" types I think anyway. binary is in the filesystem (postgresql)

04:30:29 [davb]

but did he test it?

04:31:31 [davb]

:)

04:31:58 [hazmat]

no... i was asking more as a general question of the design and use cases, esp. concern wrt to his message to the bboard.

04:32:37 [hazmat]

using text types is little different than using blobs, in terms of storage concerns of the cr_revisions table.

04:33:36 [davb]

I will take your word for it, my knowledge does not extend to that area...

04:34:27 [davb]

The one thing I saw was acs-content which was created because bboard performed poorly. I think it was NOT the CR causing the problem and noone bothered to find out.

04:35:03 [davb]

acs-content basically replaces the CR by not making content an acs-object. you just create and object that links to a row in acs-content.

04:35:15 [hazmat]

well alot of objects don't nescessarily need all the capabilities the cr provides, i think bboards is one of them.

04:35:32 [hazmat]

ie, bboard messages don't need versioning.

04:35:46 [davb]

That is true.

04:36:25 [davb]

Well then we have _two_ tables with all the BLOBs in them :)

04:36:27 [hazmat]

actually i wonder if using a text field is worse than a blob, if the text is stored in the table directly vs with a blob which works as a pointer... i need to read up on postgres...

04:36:42 [davb]

nope. only if its under 4k i believe.

04:37:00 [davb]

otherwise it automagically is put into some large text thingy that I don't fully understand

04:37:24 [hazmat]

it gets toasted

04:38:12 [davb]

yes, exactly.

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04:44:52 [rbm]

hazmat: debian rocks. I haven't come accross anything that beats it for ease of administration and maintenance

04:45:08 [davb]

good night

04:45:21 [davb]

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04:45:30 [rbm]

I just watched the new Britney Spears video.

04:46:09 [hazmat]

words of advice, words of terror

04:46:23 [rbm]

I'm so sick of this packaged music. If you put most today's music (in their categories) side-by-side, it's all the same thing.

04:46:45 [rbm]

Everybody seems to be fighting for the most sexual video.

04:47:09 [hazmat]

mtv becomes ptv

04:47:25 [rbm]

No kidding.

04:47:56 [rbm]

I thought the most sexual "pop" video I'd seen was one from Ricky Martin. But Britney Spears' new one beat it.

04:49:43 [rbm]

I'm 25, the beatles were long gone when I was born, but I love their music. And I never saw them in a steamy video or doing acrobatics on a stage.

04:50:03 [hazmat]

* hazmat killed his tv

04:50:21 [rbm]

Why are "artists" degrading themselves to such level is what baffles me.

04:51:29 [rbm]

I say "artists" because today's "musicians" are actually only performers. They don't write their songs, they don't put any feelings into the lyrics. They just perform.

04:51:44 [hazmat]

because corporations are feeding the masses 4 profit

04:52:01 [rbm]

"feeding"? With what?

04:52:09 [hazmat]

pop culture

04:52:14 [hazmat]

new

04:52:30 [hazmat]

er.. news, media, information

04:52:45 [hazmat]

products

04:53:19 [rbm]

So true.

04:54:02 [hazmat]

http://www.commondreams.org/

04:54:03 [chump]

B: http://www.commondreams.org/ from hazmat

04:54:23 [hazmat]

B: shed your illusions, and watch the world from another perspective.

04:54:24 [chump]

commented item B

04:54:45 [rbm]

What's the "progressive community"?

04:56:35 [hazmat]

its the granola eating, peace loving, humanity havin, hippies.... well thats another perspective. in actuality it tries to give a voice to a human rights and environmental concerns througout the world

04:57:49 [rbm]

M$ is losing $100 in every single Xbox.

04:58:01 [rbm]

They really do want that market.

04:58:33 [hazmat]

another link in the same vien, http://www.webactive.com/

04:58:47 [hazmat]

its a big market, it keeps sony in the black..

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05:22:51 [rbm]

hmmm. Anyone knows how to tell a2ps to print 2 pages side-by-side in a single sheet of paper?

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08:51:38 [dent]

[GlobalNotice] Well, services is up and running on the testnet-soontoberealnet. PLEASE come and try the testnet out and report any bugs to #OpenProjects. Any OPN server port 9000. Now is the time we want to find out....

09:32:23 [ChanServ]

ChanServ has changed the topic to: Welcome to the OpenACS Helpline | http://www.openacs.org/

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09:54:05 [ddent]

[GlobalNotice] So that was an OPN minute, not a real one. Sorry for the delay, we have a few eleventh hour fixups.

10:10:57 [ddent]

[GlobalNotice] All engines tuned and ready. Please get ready for launch, and buckle your seatbelt. The servers will be converted one by one, with a downtime on each of about 5 seconds. Thanks for using OPN, and have a nice day.

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10:35:30 [niven.openprojects.net]

topic is: Welcome to the OpenACS Helpline | http://www.openacs.org/

10:35:30 [niven.openprojects.net]

Users on #openacs: loggy shagster jabba_ Psychephylax rbm GEM donb

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10:39:05 [asimov.openprojects.net]

Users on #openacs: loggy jabba_ donb

10:39:12 [GlobalNotice]

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Daniel Dent

10:39:12 [GlobalNotice]

dancer-ircd conversion project manager

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Welcome to the new OPN network!

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[GlobalNotice] Hi all. The problem with services is being looked at now. Apologies for the weekend conversion madness, and thanks for using the network. Please stop by #conversion if you run into any problems. 8)

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[GlobalNotice] Hi all. The problem with services is still being looked at actively. Apologies again for the weekend conversion madness, and thank you for using OPN. Expect some problems with access lists, but things look stable enough to stay up, so we'll have to bull on through. Please stop by #conversion if you have any problems!

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17:16:20 [Psychephylax]

:-/

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17:21:52 [davb]

Hi Psychephylax. My mail is back!! :)

17:46:52 [Psychephylax]

hey

17:46:53 [Psychephylax]

cool

17:47:03 [Psychephylax]

<--compiling his custom kernel now

17:47:52 [Psychephylax]

i think I'm going to start transitioning my old server to this machine

17:50:06 [davb]

Excellent.

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17:51:14 [Psychephylax]

odd

17:51:17 [Psychephylax]

it did not install

17:51:22 [Psychephylax]

hi Mark

17:51:41 [davb]

Darnies.

17:51:44 [Psychephylax]

yeah

17:51:47 [Psychephylax]

it SAID it installed

17:51:50 [Psychephylax]

but it really did not

17:52:14 [markd2]

greets

17:52:20 [Psychephylax]

:/

17:52:25 [davb]

That is no fun.

17:52:42 [Psychephylax]

heh, I'll figure it out, it just needs a kick in the ass

17:53:57 [Psychephylax]

brb..will try in single user mode

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18:06:36 [Psychephylax]

weeeeird

18:07:05 [Psychephylax]

i removed /usr/obj and did make buildkernel=KERNNAME

18:07:14 [Psychephylax]

and i think it's compiling the whole system again not just the kernel

18:07:57 [davb]

Oh, BSD?

18:10:10 [Psychephylax]

yeah

18:10:35 [Psychephylax]

i don't know how to compile linux kernels :)

18:10:41 [Psychephylax]

last time I did it

18:11:15 [Psychephylax]

i wound up with an unbootable system

18:11:28 [docwolf]

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18:11:33 [davb]

Psychephylax: thanks for that link to the wallpaper at digitalblasphemy last week! That is a really cool site. I am going to have to get restarted on my digital art one of these days.

18:11:49 [Psychephylax]

hehe

18:12:06 [davb]

Psychephylax: I always keep a spare working kernel, then just select that in the boot loader menu when I inevitably screw up :)

18:12:10 [Psychephylax]

yeah that site is good, but I wish they made the backgrounds 1600x1200

18:12:41 [Psychephylax]

bbiab

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18:18:29 [Psychephylax]

hmm

18:18:33 [Psychephylax]

I don't like this very much

18:18:54 [Psychephylax]

it doesn't look like it's compiling the right thing

18:24:28 [Psychephylax]

heh

18:24:36 [Psychephylax]

it's compiling the system

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18:26:05 [Psychephylax]

wb foodkram

18:26:17 [Psychephylax]

doh

18:26:40 [davb]

bbl

18:26:42 [davb]

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18:26:45 [Psychephylax]

bye

18:29:19 [markdfoo]

heh

18:29:24 [markdfoo]

markdfoo is now known as markd2

18:29:26 [Psychephylax]

doritos for breakfast

18:29:28 [Psychephylax]

yuuum

18:31:00 [Psychephylax]

:)

18:31:20 [Psychephylax]

what happened to Gilbert ?

18:31:27 [Psychephylax]

he never comes anymore

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18:58:57 [docwolf]

hmm

18:59:04 [docwolf]

aD is having a auction next week?

18:59:11 [markd2]

that's the rumor

18:59:16 [markd2]

haven't heard anything solid yet

18:59:43 [docwolf]

lots of aeron chairs, burned-out sun LCDs, and fish tanks i'm sure.

19:01:56 [markd2]

that's what I want!

19:01:57 [markd2]

now!

19:02:24 [AaronSw]

"That's right, you can relive the golden days of aD in your own home! Call now!"

19:02:48 [markd2]

maybe they have some audio tapes of direct personal abuse from Philip to get the whole effect

19:04:08 [Psychephylax]

doh

19:04:14 [Psychephylax]

I got banned too hehe

19:04:18 [markd2]

good

19:04:20 [markd2]

it's not just me then :-)

19:04:21 [Psychephylax]

just Chanserv is in there

19:04:27 [markd2]

what a bitch

19:04:30 [Psychephylax]

Why do you care?

19:04:37 [markd2]

that's my other main hang-out

19:04:41 [AaronSw]

where?

19:04:43 [Psychephylax]

oh

19:04:44 [Psychephylax]

heh

19:04:49 [Psychephylax]

It got taken over by ChanServ

19:04:52 [markd2]

Western Pennsylvania Linux Users Group

19:04:56 [markd2]

Death to ChanServ!

19:04:59 [AaronSw]

Chanserv hates me!

19:05:13 [Psychephylax]

lol

19:05:18 [Psychephylax]

Anyone use FreeBSD?

19:05:18 [AaronSw]

Tell Gerr to cut it out

19:05:29 [Psychephylax]

who's gerr?

19:05:36 [AaronSw]

Founder of wplug

19:05:39 [Psychephylax]

oh

19:06:07 [markd2]

just got mail from him - he's looking into it

19:06:09 [markd2]

he gets banned too :-)

19:06:12 [markd2]

You know Gerr?

19:06:24 [AaronSw]

no, but chanserv knows all

19:06:28 [markd2]

LOL

19:06:33 [Psychephylax]

hmmm

19:06:55 [AaronSw]

Chanserv seems to be in a bad mood today.

19:15:03 [docwolf]

have any of you folks tried Redmond Linux?

19:15:21 [markd2]

Redmond Linx XP

19:15:28 [docwolf]

haha

19:15:39 [docwolf]

i'm serious...this distro actually looks decent

19:15:47 [docwolf]

i can't figure out if its RPM or DEB based

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19:19:39 [docwolf]

it looks like it makes linux way less painful for desktop use

19:19:40 [Psychephylax]

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19:19:48 [Psychephylax]

bah

19:30:54 [Psychephylax]

hmmm

19:30:55 [Psychephylax]

very odd

19:31:06 [rbm]

docwolf: redmond Linux?

19:31:27 [docwolf]

yeah...

19:31:33 [docwolf]

5 dudes in a shack outside of MS HQ

19:31:40 [rbm]

URL?

19:31:52 [docwolf]

http://www.redmondlinux.org/

19:31:53 [chump]

C: http://www.redmondlinux.org/ from docwolf

19:31:55 [Psychephylax]

lol

19:32:47 [docwolf]

it looks like they took the installer from caldera

19:33:13 [docwolf]

and built a new distro around it, with the most up-to-date versions of KDE, etc... explicitly for desktop use.

19:36:50 [rbm]

Isn't the whole point of Mandrake?

19:36:57 [rbm]

How do they deal with updates?

19:37:03 [docwolf]

I think so, but these guys have removed a ton of the cruft

19:37:11 [docwolf]

i think caldera is debian based (?)

19:37:19 [docwolf]

or is it not?

19:38:04 [docwolf]

i'm not sure, actually.. I may just download and play with it. But i think the point is that these guys aren't ashamed to recycle other people's work.

19:39:04 [rbm]

Caldera is based on no-one.

19:39:12 [docwolf]

really? uh-oh....

19:39:17 [rbm]

It's RPM-based.

19:39:30 [docwolf]

ok, so these guys aren't totally insane.

19:39:59 [docwolf]

it looks like they are focusing on a very select set of packages, rather than going for the whole enchilada.

19:43:31 [rbm]

too bad it doesn't have any documentation

19:43:50 [rbm]

It doesn't say if it's RPM or DEB based.

19:44:14 [docwolf]

it looks like they're really trying to dumb it down.

19:44:17 [rbm]

AFAICS, they are just packaging Linux and KDE.

19:44:28 [rbm]

But all these things are available on KDE already.

19:44:43 [rbm]

The Network neigborhood has been around forever.

19:44:54 [rbm]

s/neighborhood/neighborhood thing/

19:45:29 [rbm]

The only "improvement" I've seen so far was the extra menus on the KDE "start" menu

19:48:40 [rbm]

So, how's your eXPerience going?

19:49:04 [rbm]

I mean, your eXtra Proprietary experience

19:49:16 [docwolf]

hehe. XP actually installed cleanly.

19:49:24 [docwolf]

it's win2k with extra lipstick.

19:49:31 [docwolf]

and a bunch of spies

19:49:56 [rbm]

The spies are what worry me

19:50:02 [docwolf]

it's also probably the last real OS that MS will produce.

19:50:08 [rbm]

Plus the phenomenal minimum requirements

19:50:23 [rbm]

docwolf: why?

19:51:00 [docwolf]

they have solved the problem. Win2k works well enough. No one will tolerate paying $300 for an OS in the future.

19:51:16 [docwolf]

that's why they are trying to get to a subscription model as fast as they can.

19:51:26 [rbm]

you think M$ will push everybody to buy xbox'es if they want mindows?

19:51:38 [docwolf]

i don't know. Xbox seems half-baked to me.

19:52:10 [docwolf]

they will lose billions on it, and unless there are some stellar games available for it that you can't get anywhere else, i think it'll be a dud.

19:52:25 [rbm]

It's sick that if you develop with Visual Studio.CRAP you can't even license the software YOU write the way you want. You can't license it underc the GPL for example

19:52:49 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw wonders if rbm has signed up for .CRAP My Services ;)

19:53:01 [docwolf]

... or Frontpage, where it states you can't build sites that criticize MS

19:53:39 [rbm]

That's even worse

19:54:10 [rbm]

AaronSw: I have a hotmail account since before it was 0wned by M$, so I guess I have a Passport account. But I won't sign up for the My Services stuff

19:55:07 [rbm]

I'm just going to wait until they are giving away Xboxes for free and grab one. By then someone will have ported Linux for the Xbox and I'll enjoy the free Linux box.

19:55:54 [docwolf]

haha. good move, roberto.

19:56:18 [docwolf]

as a console, the Xbox is a disgrace. Have you seen how big it is?

19:56:31 [rbm]

I haven't. I hear it's big.

19:56:44 [markd2]

"my Xbox is soooo big" "how big is it?"

19:56:58 [docwolf]

haha. it's enormous. It's a PC.

19:57:01 [rbm]

I remember reading about the forged screenshots in slashdot a couple months ago

19:57:04 [davb]

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19:57:17 [markd2]

hasn't MS already pulled the forged screenshots gimmick before?

19:57:22 [docwolf]

http://videogames.about.com/library/weekly/blxboxpicshard3.htm

19:57:22 [chump]

D: http://videogames.about.com/library/weekly/blxboxpicshard3.htm from docwolf

19:57:28 [markd2]

you'd think they'd come up with Innovative Fraud

19:57:31 [docwolf]

haha

19:58:44 [docwolf]

that x-box looks like a betamax that's been hit with a can of black krylon.

19:58:51 [rbm]

I saw the controller at Wal-mart yesterday and thought it was big and ugly.

19:59:39 [rbm]

M$ will also pull the MHz Illusion fraud.

20:00:24 [docwolf]

right.. but in the end, it's PC architecture, running winNT.. what will happen 2 years from now, when the specs look totally sad compared to a normal desktop PC?

20:00:46 [docwolf]

with sega, et al there's no real basis for comparison, b/c it's all proprietary.

20:01:12 [docwolf]

... and will this also mean that people will stop developing bleeding edge games for PC's, becasue they will only program to the Xbox spec?

20:07:58 [rbm]

I dunno.

20:51:32 [robster]

[GlobalSpam] :We are just going to a bit of european rerouting, those on european servers may experiance some ugliness. Sorry.

20:52:27 [markd2]

is there a new windows virus going around?

21:27:13 [ddent]

[GlobalNotice] Due to problems with virtually every channel on the network, I'm considering re-converting the services database. The changes will fix founder access to channels, and nickname last user hosts, but will set the database back 24 hours. If you have any objections please tell me now.

21:30:03 [ddent]

[Global] Well, there are certainly lots of objections. I will see about fixing the access without rolling back the db.

21:35:11 [donb]

donb has quit

21:37:42 [Psychephylax]

:D

21:37:52 [Psychephylax]

Who's awake?

21:41:29 [docwolf]

here

21:41:34 [docwolf]

not really awake

21:41:45 [Psychephylax]

hehe

21:43:13 [Psychephylax]

mozilla takes ages to compile

21:43:24 [docwolf]

!!

21:43:29 [docwolf]

you're compilng it?

21:43:37 [docwolf]

getting the nightly?

21:44:13 [Psychephylax]

no just trying to get a functional browser

21:44:14 [Psychephylax]

lol

21:44:42 [Psychephylax]

ahhhhhhhhhhhh!

21:44:44 [Psychephylax]

Not AGAIN

21:45:42 [Psychephylax]

"The program must close to allow a previous installation attempt to complete. Please restart."

21:46:04 [docwolf]

ugh

21:46:14 [davb]

davb has quit

21:47:07 [Psychephylax]

I don't know how to fix that either

22:51:34 [AaronSw]

* AaronSw disconnects

22:58:04 [davb]

davb has joined #openacs

23:19:15 [davb]

davb has quit

23:19:19 [chump]

chump has quit

23:25:08 [davb]

davb has joined #openacs

23:25:16 [davb]

argh: stupid cat unplugged the hub

23:25:37 [chump]

chump has joined #openacs

23:26:10 [markd2]

heh

23:26:17 [markd2]

"isn't it cute!"

23:26:27 [markd2]

that's what we say whenever the cat does anything entertaining

23:30:14 [davb]

If my cat ever does something entertaining I'll have to remember that. Mostly he is just fat and occaisioanlly leaves a half-eaten rodent around.

23:31:10 [rbm]

davb: I thought that's the whole point of having cats

23:31:18 [rbm]

s/'s/was/

23:31:33 [rbm]

(watching them get fat)

23:31:52 [davb]

Oh, then I am very sucessful.

23:35:45 [docwolf]

cats have the best lifestyle.

23:36:04 [rbm]

* rbm is reminded of the "Cats & Dogs" movie

23:36:37 [docwolf]

so i've downloaded this Redmond Linux

23:36:55 [docwolf]

i'm up in the air about whether or not to try it.

23:37:12 [rbm]

* rbm encourages docwolf to try it (and then report :-))

23:37:27 [docwolf]

docwolf = guinea pig

23:37:30 [davb]

http://www.textism.com/bucket/fib.html

23:37:30 [chump]

E: http://www.textism.com/bucket/fib.html from davb

23:37:35 [rbm]

I think the name is unfortunate. "Redmond" won't gain them adepts in either Linux or Windows arenas

23:37:48 [davb]

E:|What the Hell is the Fibonacci Series?

23:37:48 [chump]

titled item E

23:37:54 [davb]

E: Flash

23:37:55 [chump]

commented item E

23:38:36 [docwolf]

that was cool.

23:38:42 [markd2]

heh

23:40:09 [davb]

E: go ahead and check out the entire site, cool stuff all around [http://www.textism.com]

23:40:09 [chump]

commented item E

23:42:10 [davb]

http://www.blackbeltjones.com/dogme.html

23:42:10 [chump]

F: http://www.blackbeltjones.com/dogme.html from davb

23:42:19 [davb]

F:|WebDogme '01

23:42:19 [chump]

titled item F

23:50:53 [ChanServ]

[#openacs] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog

23:51:38 [docwolf]

ok roberto.. i'm the guinea pig. Burning Redmond Linux to disk

23:53:32 [Psychephylax]

Psychephylax has quit

23:54:20 [markd2]

whoa

23:57:17 [ChanServ]

[#openacs] This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog

23:57:53 [davb]

they are getting tough!

23:58:14 [docwolf]

what exactly is going on there?

23:59:29 [davb]

not sure, perhaps using someone elses nickname?