00:01:48 I go study 00:01:57 Check ya laters 00:02:05 Mmm...databases algebra 00:03:30 * Psychephylax detaches 01:16:38 docwolf has joined #openacs 01:16:44 good evening 01:17:11 hiya 01:18:14 my comment about MIT proved prophetic. 01:18:31 i'm now convinced that many people at aD rode the "short bus" to school. 01:19:23 LOL 01:19:33 what inspired the epiphany> 01:19:36 check this out 01:19:46 so, there was a thread on slashdot about some "virtual server" patch 01:20:09 where you can turn a craptacular intel clone into a bunch of virtual machines under linux 01:20:41 heh 01:20:46 that sounds.. exciting. 01:20:46 I had experience with a closed-source package for RH that did just that (ensim), so i posted a little message about it 01:21:12 check out what some AC from aD posted as a reply... 01:21:18 http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=23452&cid=2531405 01:21:19 H: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=23452&cid=2531405 from docwolf 01:21:28 short bus. 01:21:30 all of them. 01:21:46 * markd2 loads over his pitifully slow link 01:23:05 "Piss off, marketting droid. We don't need your kind around here." 01:23:17 that is so wrong -- on SO MANY levels :-) 01:23:26 heh 01:23:38 is that an aD guy? sounds like a normal slashdot flame 01:23:44 no, it's an aD 01:23:54 whoa 01:24:02 aD person -- they recognized my handle. Many developers at aD for whatever reason are hostile 01:24:22 I have no idea what I did.... other than tell them to shut their pie holes & stop flaming the ACS community. 01:24:36 I always thought you were cool 01:24:38 i'm fairly sure I know who posted that message 01:25:11 their hostility is misplaced. it's very sad. 01:25:12 Personally, I don't think anyone (no matter where there degree is from) should do professional development without going through a year or two of tech support 01:25:19 we'd have fewer abortions like ACS/Java 01:26:05 yeah. that project seemed screwed from the outset. 01:32:57 * markd2 is imagining the fantasy where microsoft programmers have to support their own code 01:33:10 * rbm reads the backlog 01:33:18 * rbm things docwolf is cool 01:33:24 s/things/thinks/ 01:37:28 * rbm plays with Pythons 01:37:34 s/s$// 01:43:49 * rbm heads to the meeting 01:44:08 (our Free Software and Linux Club meeting that is) 01:49:32 Mark? 01:49:41 yep 01:51:45 can you check something out? 01:52:01 sure 01:52:04 cool :) 01:52:05 cvs checkout spork 01:52:15 * Psychephylax checks himself out of the insane asylum 01:52:34 pdf or doc? 01:52:44 ugh 01:52:49 put a pdf on a website 01:52:54 affirmative 01:53:31 oh 01:53:33 I can do HTML 01:53:51 html would rule(tm) 01:54:24 © 01:55:21 ok 01:55:49 Oh 01:55:59 Do you know about 3NF and BCNF? 01:56:19 remind me what BC is 01:56:48 and are you wanting stuff to be 3NF? 01:56:57 Boyce Codd Normal Form 01:57:40 Well, my stuff is in some sort of a form, I have to say what it is in 01:57:45 vaguely 01:57:46 i think it's in BCNF except maybe 2 tables 01:58:10 there's some things, like the book I'd do differently 01:58:21 Explain how 01:58:25 like only store Publisher_city once (looking at the diagram) 01:58:42 why is that? 01:58:48 you have it there twice! 01:58:55 Book Entity 01:59:04 the picture 01:59:18 publisher_city at 1:00 and 3:00 01:59:36 heh 01:59:37 fixed 01:59:40 the publisher to be real normal form would break the publisher_city out into another table 01:59:51 What do you want from college students who lack sleep and have presentations for boss :P 02:00:09 hang on 02:00:24 My stuff that is on the site (less the mistake you just told me) is correct? 02:00:27 so if you have 20 books from O'Reilley, you'd only have Stevastapol, CA in once. vs 20 times with what you have 02:00:53 right 02:01:04 I still don't like author having a direct reference to isbn, but we've been throug hthat before 02:01:26 the diagram doesn't ahve any date, which means you'll have duplicate authors if you ahve more than one title from them 02:01:41 I take that back 02:01:43 my eyes stopped working 02:01:51 ah yes...the lazy eye syndrome 02:01:56 I take back my take back 02:02:05 you'll still have duplicate author data 02:02:16 the birthdate handles the "two john smith" case 02:03:55 the DaysINQueue and DaysOut, are those stored? 02:04:00 yeah 02:04:09 if so, how do you update them? some periodic sweep through the db to update them? 02:04:16 trigger 02:04:21 trigger on what? 02:04:27 trigger on rollday 02:04:35 ok 02:04:40 Remember, we have the librarians manually triggering next day events 02:04:47 I trigger on that :) 02:04:49 ugh 02:04:57 Uh huh.. 02:05:03 * Psychephylax points at the spec sheet...NOT MY IDEA! 02:05:11 heh 02:06:04 i just wanna know if that system satisfies the stupid spec requirement (obviously would be modified for real world data) and what forms might this be in 02:06:31 hmm.. can't help much in the forms department 02:06:52 Well, what about the first part 02:07:08 I'm pretty much 'put it into 3NF, and denormalize if you run into performance problems' 02:07:18 right 02:07:27 BCNF is a little stricter than 3NF 02:08:20 the author thing is not 3NF, and the publisher_city is arguable 02:10:29 * markd2 finishes reading 02:10:31 looks pretty good to me 02:12:00 ok cool 02:12:22 so everything but author is in 3NF 02:13:32 I think so 02:13:35 ok 02:14:27 heh 02:14:44 I think everything is in BCNF or 3NF because of the assumptions we made about authors 02:14:57 Technically, you're correct...It's not in 3NF by real world standards 02:15:05 but it is since authors have unique names 02:15:23 the names is taken care of 02:15:29 I'm talking about if one author has two books 02:17:02 Ah 02:17:03 right 02:33:17 arhg, A domain for a website I am hosting expired last month. 02:34:42 its still active though. 02:36:57 and its still at network solutions ... 02:49:44 markd2 has quit 02:53:13 bah 02:53:18 This is soooooooooooooo confusing 02:53:24 * Psychephylax pokes mark 02:58:01 he has departed. whats up? 02:58:20 databases 02:58:24 Functional Dependencies 02:58:33 Normal forms 02:58:35 Ahhhhhhhh! 02:58:37 Aha. 02:58:50 Oh My I think is the correct exclamation there :) 02:58:59 Ahd people insist on arguing about a network I have seen on paper and they only imagine in their heads 02:59:09 Well of course! 03:03:02 I don't claim to be a pro of the network since I did not design it 03:03:14 but half the people I talk to on a daily basis did 03:03:19 It kinda rubs off 03:03:55 yes. 03:04:28 * davb comtemplates building a new PC for the 3-year-old 03:05:18 Sounds like where I work, we need to duplicate this data in another table because I don't want to have to do a query to run a report. 03:05:38 ? 03:06:22 =) 03:06:23 sorry...the alleged "programmer" at work says its too much effort to do a join of two tables, so just duplicate the data. 03:06:27 Not bad! 03:07:06 these people are getting paid ALOT more than me to spout off crazy stuff like that. 03:07:34 ok, can I come down to "work" and smack this `programmer`? 03:07:51 heh. sure! be my guest. 03:07:54 ok 03:08:02 just give me directions 03:08:10 I'll email them :) 03:08:55 I don't think that will be necessary. He installed windows XP on his computer at home. 03:09:09 hahahahahaha 03:09:15 His death will come soon........ 03:09:17 * Psychephylax hides 03:09:42 Thing is he has windows 2000 also. In fact he has EVERY version of windows. 03:10:49 Aha. I just figured it out. We need more programmable toys! 03:11:15 heh 03:11:18 All the electronic computer-like toys are not programmable. 03:11:42 They are if they work at VB 03:11:43 ack 03:11:44 CV 03:11:47 Like LEGO, you can build anything you want. Also they have robots which are programmable. 03:11:58 ? 03:12:03 heh 03:12:13 Also, then I can play with them. 03:13:38 MINDSTORMS Dark Side Developer Kit (9754) 03:14:24 Which is a robot kit to build an AT-AT 03:14:26 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004T30V/ref=cm_list/002-3543771-4665619 03:14:26 I: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004T30V/ref=cm_list/002-3543771-4665619 from davb 03:14:39 I:|Mindstorms Dark Side Developer Kit 03:14:39 titled item I 03:14:57 MS should change the .NET framework to the Dark Side Developer Kit :) 03:19:13 rofl 03:19:46 Anyway that is an ultimate nerd toy. Star Wars, Lego, its a robot, what else do you need? 03:24:45 time for me to sleep. g'night! 03:24:54 later 03:24:56 davb has quit 03:52:56 jerryasher has joined #openacs 03:57:18 jerryasher has changed the topic to: 'openacs | libre web toolkit | http://openacs.org' 04:19:51 docwolf has quit 04:32:25 aegrumet has joined #openacs 04:36:52 jerryasher has quit 04:52:14 [GlobalNotice] Currently scheduled dancer-ircd conversion: 01/10/10 10:10:10. Details to follow. 05:04:07 [GlobalNotice] YY-MM-DD 01-11-11 11:11:11 PST is the now set conversion time. Oops. So I got the month wrong ;). 05:09:34 tcl question, what does prepending a \# to uplevel signify ? 05:10:18 as in uplevel \#[adp_level] {codeblock} 05:14:58 [GlobalNotice] I really shouldn't be doing these messages today... proper date: YY-MM-DD 01-11-10 11:11:11 PST 05:20:53 hazmat has quit 05:31:02 mooooo 05:40:48 hey rbm 05:49:26 aegrumet has left #openacs 12:17:22 ola has joined #openacs 14:07:31 davb has joined #openacs 14:11:14 * AaronSw reconnects 14:14:44 good morning davb! 14:16:09 brr! woke up this morning and there was snow outside... 14:17:00 Woah! we don't have any yet, but it was 20 degress F 14:17:34 how much is that in Celcius? 14:17:52 too tired to thing about it. Approx -10 I think. 14:18:39 * davb installs tinydns on his debian box. 14:19:16 -6.66 according to this: http://www.pitt.edu/~rsup/tempconv.html 14:19:27 cool. 14:19:55 * davb has no idea why the US is so dumb about C/F and metric etc... 14:20:09 I intalled tinydns erlier today.. 14:20:31 s/erlier/earlier 14:20:37 Cool. I am attempting to move my DNS over to the cable and be free of DSL. I have to transer a domain at network solutions. Its evil. 14:21:19 heh 14:21:35 Cool. the debian installer creates all the proper users/groups for tinuydns. 14:21:38 I hate DNS stuff and firewalls:-) 14:22:58 Yeah. I also have to duplicate my email setup. that is tricky. its qmail/courier-imap/vpopmail 14:23:14 DJ Bernstein's documentation is mighty good but he doesn't cover *my* case. 14:23:33 Oh, that is not fun. Did you try the mailing list archives? 14:24:23 I learned alot from the qmail archive. 14:25:17 Wow. that was easy. 14:25:23 not yet but I think I'll have to consult it. 14:25:48 oops, I forgot to START tinydns :) 14:26:24 don't tell me it's because of Debian it's easy. :-) 14:26:48 markd2 has joined #openacs 14:26:56 hi markd2 14:27:06 greetings 14:27:14 No its easy because of daemontools! 14:27:26 :) 14:28:25 0.76? 14:29:11 I think so. 14:29:25 Whatever was new two months ago or so when I reinstalled this box. 14:29:44 ok 14:29:46 maybe 0.75 14:31:26 cool. I just got my new company domain. 14:31:34 excellent 14:31:48 it's greek. polyxena.net 14:31:49 ola-master-of-the-universe.com 14:32:02 almost:-) 14:32:15 Cool. 14:33:03 it translates to something like "many guests"... 14:33:39 * davb installs qmail from debian package 14:33:52 the real challange is customizing it for my wacky setup. 14:34:18 after this I will be 100% debian for my servers :) 14:36:03 ola has quit 14:36:25 Or "collector of many episodes of Xena, Warrior Princess" 14:37:56 ola has joined #openacs 14:39:55 Or "collector of many episodes of Xena, Warrior Princess" 14:40:09 argh. ucspi-tcp is not building... 14:41:34 time to do it the old-fashioned way :) 14:42:53 That worked. 14:44:54 davb: are you going to install qmail the old-fashioned way as well? 14:45:20 if so you might want to tru my qumailinst script. 14:45:39 s/tru/try 14:46:16 s/qumailinst/qmailinst 14:48:09 I am trying the debian package, but its not working because the ucspi pacakge is not installed. argh. I'll try that. where can I get it? 14:48:19 I'm not sure it works with the latest daemontools though: http://www.infogettable.net/software//qmailinst.txt 14:49:13 oops. I already installed daemontools and uscpi. 14:50:37 now I need to install qmail by hand. The debian package at least creates all the users/groups I needed. 14:57:39 dumb questions. in passwd whats the name after the second number for? ie 14:58:05 qmaill:*:11111:11111:what is this homedir 15:00:58 from the man page: The gecos field can be set by the 15:00:58 user. It is expected to be a comma separated list of personal data where 15:01:00 the first item is the full name of the user. 15:01:21 oh ok. 15:01:26 cool, thanks. 15:01:33 np 15:02:27 The debian installer uses a different group than the life with qmail instructions. 15:03:58 damn traitors. 15:04:46 * AaronSw disconnects 15:05:33 well its installed. now to make it RUN and customize it. 15:18:59 well, shit 15:19:02 I'm going to fail my test 15:23:22 aegrumet has joined #openacs 15:23:33 which test? 15:23:52 databases 15:25:35 you seemed to be doing pretty well last night 15:25:58 Yeah but that's diff from what he will ask on the test 15:26:07 by the way, I modified it some more 15:27:39 cool. lemme know what we got on it :-) 15:28:03 yeah one question I had for you 15:28:05 was... 15:28:30 My friend did a "Wrote" table mapping authors to books 15:28:40 I didn't think it was necessary but I could be wrong 15:28:54 in the Real World you'd want it 15:28:57 and...the second question is...do I need a table for relations such as "book is a copy" 15:29:00 but we know this isn't the real world 15:29:18 hello aegrumet 15:29:40 Or something like BookCopy IsOn shelf 15:30:12 the IsOn is a relation but I satisfy it by having an attribute of BookCopy that binds it to a specific book so I did not see a need to have a "IsOn" table 15:31:46 that works 15:31:53 ok 15:31:54 a copy can't be on more than one shelf at a time, 15:31:59 so no need for a seperate table 15:32:02 right 15:32:22 I vaguely recall my professor stating something along the lines of "You need a table for every relation" but maybe that was just a dream 15:32:42 abbaJ has quit 15:32:45 Psychephylax: as long as you know everything about normalization and Codd's twelve rules you should be ok (and if you can spell "orcle" that might give you an extra point). 15:32:53 s/orcle/oracle 15:33:04 ola doesn't ge tan extra point 15:33:09 go back to your Xena tapes 15:33:11 abbaJ has joined #openacs 15:33:51 heh 15:33:57 lol 15:34:03 ola what are these 12 rules 15:34:17 * AaronSw reconnects 15:34:18 i want the "No Frills" version of the rules too 15:40:54 I don't even know what they will ask me 15:41:08 eh..I guess that's why they call it a test... ;-/ 15:41:23 Rule 1: no pooftas 15:41:30 pooftas? 15:41:33 Rule 2: No member of the faculty is to 15:41:33 maltreat the Abbos in any way at all .... if 15:41:33 there's anybody watching 15:41:40 Rule 3: no pooftas 15:41:48 Rule 4: Now this term, I don't want to catch 15:41:48 anybody not drinking 15:41:51 etc etc 15:41:54 * Psychephylax gives Mark a cookie in hopes of distracting him 15:42:08 (Monty Python routine involving close to 12 rules) 15:42:15 oh 15:44:32 can't find it 15:46:00 http://www.rraz.co.uk/alexs/python/MontyPython3.htm 15:46:00 A: http://www.rraz.co.uk/alexs/python/MontyPython3.htm from markd2 15:46:09 A: Monty Python Bruces Sketch 15:46:09 commented item A 15:47:16 http://www.mwscomp.com/visrules.html 15:47:17 B: http://www.mwscomp.com/visrules.html from ola 15:47:45 :B|Afew of Codd's twelve rules 15:47:57 :B| Afew of Codd's twelve rules 15:48:09 hmm 15:48:52 heh 15:48:53 B:| A few of Codd's twelve rules 15:48:53 titled item B 15:49:53 hmmmmm 15:50:11 * davb checks yesterdays log because qmail is not repsponding on port 25 15:50:18 heh 15:50:29 qmail-smtp 15:50:40 I'm copying over a tcpserver config now 15:50:56 * Psychephylax listens 15:51:13 yep 15:51:16 I like the 4th rule 15:51:24 (i didn;t get far enough in life with qmail apparently) 15:53:33 lol 15:53:46 I am printing out the 12 rules now 15:53:56 On the test i will write 1 sentence and get an A :) 15:54:19 "This database does not satisfy these rules so I refuse to do the problems" 15:54:27 and staple the rules on top 15:54:28 lol 15:54:49 You have to explain WHY is doesn't satify the rules. 15:54:55 i can do that 15:54:57 :-D 15:55:07 It's rather simple too 15:55:17 because the person who designed the database did not understand the rules 15:55:19 lol 15:57:01 yeah! 15:57:07 qmailsmtpd is listening! 15:57:55 qool 15:58:25 here too! 15:58:26 woo hoo! 16:01:05 yeah! 16:01:14 Now I have to install the rest of the crap I need. 16:01:46 WTF, courier-imap installs EMACS20??! 16:02:07 and Python 1.5 and Python 2.1 16:02:30 also POSTGRESQL??? 16:02:33 weird. 16:03:13 mmmm 16:03:15 emacs 16:03:23 I think my apt is going insane. 16:03:42 oh wait... 16:03:44 maybe not. 16:03:53 Still thats alot of crap for a little mail package. 16:04:24 i'm going to travel to school 16:04:33 this box hasn't been updated in awhile. 16:10:15 good luck on the test 16:10:39 thanks 16:10:53 * Psychephylax leaves 16:11:18 * davb wait impatiently for the email from network solutions 16:20:27 I think I will disable POP3 and just use IMAP. 16:40:23 wow. Rzolf has a mention. http://www.ftrain.com/cute_animals.html 16:40:39 * AaronSw disconnects 17:18:25 adler has joined #openacs 17:18:31 hello 17:18:38 greetings 17:18:53 is there I can participate in off-topic converstations? 17:19:08 s/there/this where/ 17:19:14 sure! 17:19:43 markd2 has changed the topic to: Welcome to #openacs, the OpenACS hotline and off-topic cnversation channel. Now fortified with docwolf! 17:19:54 markd2 has changed the topic to: Welcome to #openacs, the OpenACS hotline and off-topic conversation channel. Now fortified with docwolf! 17:19:57 damn O key 17:20:05 great. I'll just idle in the background and occasionally chime in with a worthless and personal remark 17:20:23 excellent 17:24:14 Great. 17:24:43 So I need to setup virutal domain support for Qmail. I am choosing vpopmail because I set it up before and it works with courier IMAP. Anyone else ever use this? 17:25:26 or any other package? 17:25:33 no, but if you need help with a good custard recipe, /msg me 17:26:31 Ok. 17:27:59 argh! 17:28:11