IRC log of openacs on 2001-11-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:06:14 [rbm]

whazzuuuuuuup!

00:06:28 [rbm]

AHHH! The horror! Iostream!

00:06:38 [rbm]

Please, please, anything but iostream!

00:07:36 [markd2]

heh

00:07:46 [markd2]

I've got a postgres rtfm question I'm too lazy to look up

00:07:52 [rbm]

shoot it

00:08:23 [markd2]

I've compiled PG 7.2b1 for OS/X

00:08:39 [markd2]

I'm getting an error when starting the postbastard about semaphores

00:08:46 [markd2]

I can't figure out (easily) how to up my kernel to have more semaphore

00:08:53 [markd2]

so it says Alternatively, reduce PostgreSQL's

00:08:53 [markd2]

consumption of semaphores by reducing its max_connections parameter

00:08:54 [markd2]

(currently 32).

00:09:01 [markd2]

how do I set that?

00:09:07 [markd2]

I presume there's a config file somewhere

00:09:25 [rbm]

Yes. postgresql.conf

00:09:36 [markd2]

sweet

00:09:36 [markd2]

thanks

00:10:57 [rbm]

np

00:30:23 [markd2]

* markd2 asks another rtfm

00:30:31 [markd2]

proper way to shutdown postmaster

00:30:37 [markd2]

if it's been run by hand

00:34:17 [markd2]

never mind. createdb kills the server

00:34:20 [markd2]

* markd2 sighs

00:35:26 [rbm]

markd2: Use pg_ctl

00:35:32 [rbm]

Don't start it by hand.

00:35:32 [markd2]

thanks

00:44:34 [markd2]

* markd2 starts the db with -d 5 to try to find out what's wrong

00:44:57 [rbm]

go markd2!

00:46:00 [markd2]

DEBUG: BackendStartup: forked pid=6008 socket=27

00:46:00 [markd2]

. Which then segVs creating a database

00:52:36 [markd2]

ah ha

00:52:36 [markd2]

the shell limits where I was doing pg_start were absurdly small

00:52:36 [markd2]

cratedb is now chugging along happily

00:52:44 [markd2]

* markd2 spoke too soon

00:53:22 [rbm]

:(

00:54:40 [markd2]

but it got farther!

00:55:27 [markd2]

guests. gotta go!

00:55:31 [rbm]

later

00:55:34 [markd2]

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01:11:23 [Commutophylax]

Commutophylax is now known as Homophylax

01:11:26 [Homophylax]

errr...

01:11:30 [Homophylax]

that doesnt' sound very good

01:11:34 [Homophylax]

Homophylax is now known as Psychephylax

01:15:27 [Psychephylax]

i guess I missed all the fun

03:39:54 [davb]

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03:50:49 [davb]

davb has quit

06:27:27 [hazmat]

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09:07:56 [hazmat]

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13:24:35 [davb]

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13:56:42 [Psychephylax]

heh

13:56:44 [Psychephylax]

too early

13:56:49 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax codes up some java

14:31:50 [k2pts]

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14:31:58 [Psychephylax]

hi

14:32:04 [Psychephylax]

:)

14:32:05 [k2pts]

hey

14:32:17 [Psychephylax]

must be early there

14:32:21 [Psychephylax]

or..late

14:32:26 [Psychephylax]

whatever the case might be

14:32:32 [k2pts]

it's 1600 in the afternoon

14:32:37 [Psychephylax]

ah

14:32:41 [k2pts]

1630 actually

14:32:46 [Psychephylax]

09:30 here

14:33:02 [Psychephylax]

dang

14:33:04 [k2pts]

that's explains why there is low traffic at #openacs

14:33:07 [Psychephylax]

my box must have coughed up a lung

14:33:12 [Psychephylax]

Sat Nov 3 09:48:58 EST 2001

14:33:16 [Psychephylax]

it's 15 minutes off

14:33:46 [k2pts]

how's your project going

14:33:54 [k2pts]

?

14:34:49 [k2pts]

what does "commutophylax" means?

14:34:58 [Psychephylax]

heh

14:35:08 [Psychephylax]

well...it doesn't mean anything :)

14:35:15 [k2pts]

:)

14:35:19 [Psychephylax]

it's just that I was leaving work ... "Commuting home"

14:35:24 [Psychephylax]

so I set it to commutophylax

14:35:27 [k2pts]

ah ok

14:35:31 [Psychephylax]

makes sense now?

14:35:36 [k2pts]

yeap

14:35:39 [Psychephylax]

cool

14:35:41 [Psychephylax]

as for my project

14:35:47 [Psychephylax]

it's coming along but I have weird bugs

14:35:57 [Psychephylax]

i think it's the library's fault though

14:36:09 [k2pts]

you mean nssnmp?

14:36:23 [Psychephylax]

or the underlying snmp++ which is used by ns_snmp

14:36:51 [Psychephylax]

For some odd reason, if I poll a modem and it returns a positive value it's returning the proper one... 3.4 for example

14:37:23 [Psychephylax]

but if I poll a modem and it returns a negative value like -6.4 then I get a return that is ten times larger -64

14:37:51 [Psychephylax]

The fix is easy but i don't think it's a good one

14:37:59 [k2pts]

have you emailed the ns_snmp developers?

14:38:03 [Psychephylax]

It's not something I did that's for sure

14:38:28 [Psychephylax]

no not yet, I was trying to compile an SNMP++ console tool to check to see if it's SNMP++ or if it's Vlads code

14:38:40 [k2pts]

ok

14:39:27 [davb]

hi k2pts

14:39:30 [k2pts]

hi davb

14:39:41 [Psychephylax]

Sup Dave

14:40:39 [Psychephylax]

my databases professor is so mean! ugh!

14:40:48 [Psychephylax]

He totally redid the requirements to make them more confusing

14:42:48 [davb]

Score me 1000 points for not going to college for CS :)

14:44:22 [k2pts]

remember when I was evaluating the student's solutions?

14:46:25 [Psychephylax]

yeah

14:46:57 [Psychephylax]

did they all fail?

14:46:58 [Psychephylax]

hahaha

14:47:23 [k2pts]

the professor said I should be more strict (half the class got 8/10 for the second assignment, and 10/10 for the first one)

14:48:21 [Psychephylax]

heh

14:48:24 [Psychephylax]

You're a TA?

14:48:27 [k2pts]

yes

14:48:30 [Psychephylax]

ah

14:48:46 [Psychephylax]

you're the people we love to hate as students

14:48:47 [Psychephylax]

lol

14:49:49 [k2pts]

actually, I have a good relationship (with the students) and I like that

14:49:56 [Psychephylax]

well

14:50:02 [Psychephylax]

there are exceptions for course

14:50:12 [Psychephylax]

in general however

14:50:25 [Psychephylax]

that is not the case

14:50:27 [k2pts]

They have a midterm on Monday and we did a tutorial/recitation today. I quoted Einstein,

14:50:47 [Psychephylax]

nice

14:50:49 [k2pts]

"To me the worst thing seems to be a school principally

14:51:08 [k2pts]

to work with methods of fear, force and artificial authority.

14:51:22 [davb]

k2pts: for my keywords package I have several www/.tcl/.adp pages that do all the work. Do I need to abstract all of that into the tcl library to work with service contract.

14:51:38 [rbm]

k2pts: I have a professor that fits that exact description.

14:51:42 [k2pts]

Such a treatment destroys the sound sentiments, the sincerity and the self-confidence of pupils and produces subservient subject" -- Albert Einstein

14:51:55 [davb]

Wow.

14:52:02 [rbm]

Einstein rocks

14:52:15 [davb]

Now I forgot what I was going to say :)

14:52:35 [davb]

Anyway so my www pages should call the same procs that hook into the service contract?

14:53:11 [k2pts]

the keywords should be available upon calling the datasource function

14:53:33 [Psychephylax]

be back in a bit

14:53:37 [Psychephylax]

bank, then starbucks

14:53:46 [k2pts]

It would be nice if openfts could rank keywords differently as it does for title and body.

14:54:57 [k2pts]

Unfortunately, it doesn't so we have to decide what is best: a) to index the keywords as part of the title (so that they are ranked higher) or b) as part of the body.

14:56:35 [k2pts]

When I say "it doesn't", I mean "it doesn't (as is)". It could be modified but not an easy task at the moment.

14:56:56 [graszew]

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14:58:30 [k2pts]

hi graszew

14:58:53 [graszew]

hi

14:59:09 [k2pts]

davb: would you be able to test the wf package this weekend. I can send an updated tarball.

15:02:16 [rbm]

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15:03:29 [rbm]

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15:03:45 [k2pts]

hi rbm

15:03:53 [rbm]

Woot! Lost my connection.

15:04:22 [rbm]

Sharp is selling its PDA for $399: http://more.sbc.co.jp/slj/linux.asp

15:06:10 [k2pts]

rbm: do you have any good links for uml and/or rational rose?

15:08:30 [rbm]

k2pts: Don't use Rational Rose.

15:08:43 [rbm]

I use ArgoUML and Dia.

15:08:56 [rbm]

k2pts: You mean UML tutorials?

15:08:58 [talli]

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15:09:08 [talli]

hello all

15:09:20 [k2pts]

hi talli

15:09:25 [talli]

hey neophytos

15:09:29 [talli]

how's it going?

15:09:43 [rbm]

k2pts: Rational Rose is _huge_ (almost 1 Gb after installation), and ironically, doesn't support a bunch of the UML standard (it's made by the company owned by the guys who wrote UML)

15:09:50 [k2pts]

rbm: neither am I. I have to give a lecture on rational rose though

15:09:59 [rbm]

oooh

15:10:06 [rbm]

my sympathies then.

15:10:14 [k2pts]

talli: John helped a lot debugging the wf stuff

15:10:21 [k2pts]

rbm: :)

15:10:22 [talli]

killer. good to hear

15:10:51 [rbm]

k2pts: I forget the name of their company... rational I think?

15:11:00 [k2pts]

http://www.rational.com

15:11:16 [k2pts]

founded by: Grady Booch et al

15:11:36 [talli]

i have a book of theirs when i was studying OOP

15:11:51 [talli]

UML seems kind of neat

15:12:22 [rbm]

UML would be very neat if they weren't so vague in their formal definitions.

15:12:33 [talli]

true enough

15:12:51 [rbm]

The way it is right now, it leaves too much room for weird interpretations.

15:12:53 [talli]

but the concept of automatic documentation from code is cool

15:13:06 [rbm]

Heck, Rational Rose doesn't support a _bunch_ of it.

15:13:16 [rbm]

talli: eh?

15:13:21 [talli]

however, i've been around enough to know that "automatic" usually means "wrong"

15:13:41 [rbm]

UML has nothing to do with code. It's a language for models.

15:14:03 [rbm]

Especifically, OOP models.

15:14:03 [talli]

yes, but it can also build models from your code

15:14:11 [talli]

well, pretty much only OOP models

15:14:27 [rbm]

No. That's you _tool_ that builds the models from your code.

15:14:41 [rbm]

UML has no part in that except that it's being used by your tool.

15:14:45 [talli]

ah, ok

15:15:40 [talli]

i guess that's where reading a book by rational makes things a bit sketchy...

15:15:53 [talli]

anyway, it still seems that UML is pretty OOP specific

15:16:19 [davb]

k2pts: Sure I can take another look. Oracle is already installed, thats the hard part.

15:16:49 [k2pts]

I'll send it later

15:18:23 [davb]

k2pts: Aha, i just understood your previous post. Yes a pcakage will need to query my keyword package to deliver the keywords to the serach package :)

15:19:21 [k2pts]

right

15:19:40 [Psychephylax]

oh boy

15:19:44 [Psychephylax]

I'm missing a UML discussion

15:20:26 [Psychephylax]

and it can create code from models

15:20:29 [Psychephylax]

at least RR can

15:21:25 [k2pts]

are there any good Linux tools for viewing AVI files? (I'm completely ignorant)

15:21:35 [Psychephylax]

hmmm

15:21:44 [Psychephylax]

Multimedia in Linux is not my strong side

15:23:53 [k2pts]

thanks. brb.

15:25:18 [talli]

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15:30:48 [k2pts]

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15:53:27 [docwolf]

hi everybody

15:53:56 [davb]

hi

15:54:55 [docwolf]

looks like i'm in for a big storm.

15:55:17 [docwolf]

this should be entertaining, if nothing else.

16:27:06 [Psychephylax]

heh

17:00:54 [davb]

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17:10:47 [davb]

stupid OpenACS question. If a pl/pgsql function returns a value can I do set foo [db_exec_plsql query_name ""] ?

17:11:20 [rbm]

I think so. But IIRC, there's a return switch to db_exec_plsql

17:11:32 [davb]

Thanks.

17:13:40 [davb]

ok, can I do db_string query_name "select content_keyword__new(stuff) into keyword_id"?

17:17:48 [rbm]

Shouldn't it be :keyword_id ?

17:19:03 [davb]

not sure. do bind vars go in both directions?

17:19:09 [davb]

time to read the docs :)

17:20:53 [davb]

Aha. db_1row and db_0or1row set the variables to column names.

17:24:51 [davb]

Aha. "Postgres doesn't have PL/SQL, of course, but it does have PL/pgSQL and other procedural languages. Rather than assign the result to a bind variable which is then returned to the caller, the Postgres version of OpenACS requires the caller to perform a select query that returns the value of the function. We are no longer calling db_string, which screws up the bind variable stuff otherwise because of calling environments. (ben)

17:24:51 [davb]

":

17:25:01 [davb]

Reading the docs really _does_ work!

17:27:20 [davb]

so set blah [db_exec_plsql query_name "select function_name(params)"] sets the result of the function to blah.

17:28:46 [rbm]

:) I remember reading that.

17:28:57 [rbm]

I've been doing so much PHP that I'm being contaminated

17:29:13 [davb]

:)

17:29:22 [rbm]

AOLserver/OpenACS is so much better

17:34:55 [davb]

Have you seen any code that actually sets the creation user or creation_ip?

17:35:48 [Psychephylax]

anyone good with quotas here?

17:36:00 [davb]

for Oracle?

17:36:07 [Psychephylax]

no

17:36:09 [Psychephylax]

for unix =)

17:36:20 [davb]

oh...not me :)

17:36:20 [Psychephylax]

I'm trying to set up quotas

17:36:32 [rbm]

haven't done that yet

17:36:38 [Psychephylax]

people are starting to abuse my server by uploading cd images

17:36:49 [rbm]

How are they uploading?

17:36:51 [Psychephylax]

I figure I'll set up 50 meg quotas

17:36:52 [Psychephylax]

FTP

17:36:59 [davb]

turn off FTP :)

17:37:01 [rbm]

There's a HOWTO on that IIRC

17:37:07 [Psychephylax]

heh

17:37:11 [rbm]

(Quotas)

17:37:14 [Psychephylax]

Well, then I won't be able to ftp in

17:37:21 [davb]

Use SCP

17:37:30 [rbm]

use sftp

17:37:34 [davb]

right

17:37:38 [Psychephylax]

Roberto, I know _how_ I just don't remember the exact syntax of the quota file

17:37:48 [Psychephylax]

I have problems with sftp

17:37:54 [rbm]

Psychephylax: what problems?

17:38:00 [Psychephylax]

I can't log in

17:38:08 [davb]

that _is_ a problem!

17:38:12 [rbm]

DO you have the sftp subsystem enables?

17:38:16 [rbm]

s/enables/enabled?

17:38:17 [Psychephylax]

probably not

17:38:19 [Psychephylax]

lol

17:38:26 [Psychephylax]

let me check

17:38:32 [rbm]

Look in /etc/ssh/ssd_config

17:38:37 [rbm]

err. sshd_config

17:39:49 [Psychephylax]

aha

17:39:51 [Psychephylax]

it wasn't enabled

17:40:07 [rbm]

:-)

17:40:09 [davb]

Hey cool. I have it! didn't even know it.

17:40:19 [Psychephylax]

brb

17:40:26 [Psychephylax]

I don't remember how to restart sshd

17:40:28 [davb]

rbm: have you seen any code that sets creation_user and creation_ip?

17:40:34 [rbm]

BTW, you should uprade your SSHds. There was an exploit on sftp/ssh

17:40:40 [rbm]

Psychephylax: /etc/init.d/ssh restart

17:40:57 [rbm]

davb: of what?

17:41:25 [Psychephylax]

I don't have an init.d

17:41:41 [rbm]

is this bsd?

17:41:48 [davb]

whatever. in OpenACS. For example I am creating keywords. It has the params for creation_user and creation_ip. also static-pages, I know doesn't set them.

17:42:09 [Psychephylax]

brb

17:42:15 [Psychephylax]

Psychephylax has quit

17:42:29 [rbm]

You mean you don't know where to get that data from to put in the table?

17:42:43 [rbm]

I don't believe Psyche is going to reboot just to restart sshd

17:42:59 [davb]

Well yeah :) Actually I am building a service so it will get it from whoever uses the service I guess.

17:43:05 [rbm]

killall -HUP sshd

17:43:18 [rbm]

davb: Look at the params for ad_conn

17:43:28 [rbm]

I think it has user_id and ip address

17:43:30 [davb]

Ok. (duh)

17:43:37 [rbm]

:)

17:43:56 [syslogd]

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17:44:18 [rbm]

whoa! syslogd is visiting us! What an honor

17:44:34 [syslogd]

Howdy

17:44:36 [syslogd]

syslogd is now known as Spork

17:44:42 [Spork]

huh?

17:44:48 [rbm]

Spork: Did you just reboot to restart sshd?

17:44:57 [Spork]

I didn't reboot

17:45:10 [rbm]

Ah, good. I was about to twack you if you did :-)

17:45:11 [Spork]

I just went to single user mode

17:45:20 [rbm]

Spork: killall -HUP sshd

17:45:22 [Spork]

Works just as well as a reboot

17:45:52 [davb]

whats up with /etc/ssh/sshd_not_to_be_run? I just updated to the new sshd and not thats in there.

17:46:08 [Spork]

Roberto

17:46:14 [Spork]

I still get the same error

17:46:29 [Spork]

"Failed to open a secure file transfer session"

17:47:09 [rbm]

how are you connecting to the server?

17:47:26 [Spork]

I connect to my computer with ssh then hit the sftp button on the toolbar

17:47:49 [rbm]

What client?

17:47:56 [Spork]

the one from ssh.com

17:48:21 [rbm]

I never tried that way. I just the sftp client from ssh.com (when in windows)

17:48:44 [rbm]

If you enabled the sftp subsystem and restarted the ssh daemon, it should work.

17:48:45 [Spork]

Isn't that the same thing

17:48:54 [Spork]

ok, then you try connecting

17:48:56 [rbm]

Spork: I don't know if it's the same thing. I didn't write that client.

17:48:58 [Spork]

neverhere.com

17:49:26 [davb]

heh, it asks me for a password.

17:49:40 [rbm]

I can connect just fine

17:49:41 [Spork]

in sftp? or ssh?

17:49:45 [rbm]

in sftp

17:49:49 [Spork]

wwwweeeeeird

17:49:49 [davb]

sftp (openssh from Linux)

17:49:55 [rbm]

roberto@brasileiro:~/documents/work/egold$ sftp rmello@neverhere.com

17:49:56 [rbm]

Connecting to neverhere.com...

17:49:56 [rbm]

The authenticity of host 'neverhere.com (24.186.169.143)' can't be established.

17:49:56 [rbm]

DSA key fingerprint is 85:ed:a9:b0:5b:4a:06:cc:ab:1f:b8:60:97:ae:9b:75.

17:49:56 [rbm]

Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? yes

17:49:56 [rbm]

Warning: Permanently added 'neverhere.com,24.186.169.143' (DSA) to the list of known hosts.

17:49:58 [rbm]

rmello@neverhere.com's password:

17:50:09 [davb]

me too.

17:50:54 [Spork]

nblyumbe@wysoft../home/nblyumbe>sftp neverhere.com

17:51:01 [Spork]

Connecting to neverhere.com...

17:51:01 [Spork]

The authenticity of host 'neverhere.com (24.186.169.143)' can't be established.

17:51:01 [Spork]

DSA key fingerprint is 85:ed:a9:b0:5b:4a:06:cc:ab:1f:b8:60:97:ae:9b:75.

17:51:01 [Spork]

Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? yes

17:51:04 [rbm]

You have to pass a login name

17:51:24 [rbm]

sftp foo@bar.com

17:51:25 [Spork]

Failed to add the host to the list of known hosts (/home/nblyumbe/.ssh/known_hosts2).

17:51:38 [Spork]

nblyumbe@neverhere.com's password:

17:51:38 [Spork]

Request for subsystem 'sftp' failed on channel 0

17:51:38 [Spork]

Couldn't read packet: Undefined error: 0

17:51:38 [Spork]

nblyumbe@wysoft../home/nblyumbe>

17:51:49 [Spork]

What port does it use?

17:51:51 [rbm]

22

17:51:58 [rbm]

Is this BSD or Linux?

17:51:59 [Spork]

ok then

17:52:01 [Spork]

BSD

17:52:13 [rbm]

Maybe there's a separate "package" for sftp?

17:52:17 [Spork]

Linux is inferior to bsd in every shape form and color

17:52:23 [Spork]

=)

17:52:26 [Spork]

lemme checkj

17:52:43 [rbm]

Spork: I beg to difer, but I won't go down that path.

17:52:53 [Spork]

heh

17:52:54 [Spork]

=)

17:53:03 [rbm]

I've been down that road. I know exactly where it ends. And that's not where I want to be.

17:53:24 [rbm]

Can anybody catch where that line is from?

17:55:10 [rbm]

roberto@brasileiro:~/documents/work/egold$ ll /usr/lib/sftp-server

17:55:11 [rbm]

-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 22780 Sep 13 10:36 /usr/lib/sftp-server

17:55:44 [rbm]

You should check if you have the subsystem pointed to by the sftp entry in your sshd_config

17:55:59 [Spork]

it is

17:56:08 [Spork]

I have a /usr/libexec/sftp-server

17:57:08 [rbm]

Then it's something you have to work with the BSD gods you worship.

17:57:28 [rbm]

I love BSD btw.

17:57:37 [rbm]

But I don't worship the BSD or Linux gods.

17:57:48 [Spork]

hmmm

17:57:53 [Spork]

That's fscked up

17:58:00 [Spork]

I'd love to get sftp to work

17:58:05 [Spork]

one less port I have to leave open

18:03:16 [Spork]

odd...very odd

18:19:36 [til]

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18:39:53 [k2pts]

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18:42:07 [rbm]

welcome welcome

18:43:16 [k2pts]

I think, I've just found a paper that introduced contracts (like acs-sc) back in 1990 and I'm excited.

18:46:43 [rbm]

wow

18:48:22 [k2pts]

I'm so excited. Here's a quote that is referenced in that paper: "...no object is an island. All objects stand in relationship to others on whom they rely for services and control" -- Beck & Cunningham 1989

18:48:53 [k2pts]

The paper is "Contracts: Specifying Behavioral Compositions in Object-Oriented Systems" by Helm et al

18:52:04 [rbm]

cool

18:52:05 [rbm]

URL?

18:53:57 [k2pts]

I was so excited I lost the page. let me check. otherwise I'll send you the paper.

18:54:08 [rbm]

excellent

18:54:19 [k2pts]

http://www.cs.rice.edu/~robby/contract-reading-list/ec900169.pdf

18:55:14 [davb]

* davb looks and tries to learn something...

18:56:02 [rbm]

* rbm wgets for later reading

18:56:38 [rbm]

tks k2pts

18:57:00 [k2pts]

np. This is great for future work on acs-service-contract.

18:59:55 [k2pts]

I am going to post this on the forums. It's so cool.

19:20:25 [k2pts]

davb: are you reading it? it completely describes acs-sc. I am going to use this stuff to improve the documentation and maybe write an article (like ASJ)

19:59:23 [k2pts]

"A precursor to [Design] patterns is the work of Helm et al. 1990) on Contracts

19:59:23 [k2pts]

which are specifications of behavioral compositions." -- Dirk Riehle, Heinz Züllighoven (Understanding and Using Patterns in Software Development, 1996)

20:22:47 [jerryasher]

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20:25:55 [jerryasher]

http://members.home.net/k2pts/

20:30:00 [k2pts]

jerryasher: that's not my stuff. It's a guy whose nickname in radia amateurs is k2pts.

20:30:09 [k2pts]

s/radia/radio

20:30:28 [k2pts]

no relation. I found out about him after years that I choose k2pts for my email address

20:30:33 [jerryasher]

I know. It's still a fun page.

20:30:38 [k2pts]

yeap

20:31:01 [jerryasher]

I wish I had the time, money, and fun hobbies that guy has!

20:31:05 [k2pts]

have you seen the paper, I cited above? It's very interesting and very much related to acs-sc.

20:31:30 [jerryasher]

I saw your link, but haven't had a chance to take a look at it.

20:31:51 [jerryasher]

The link itself reminded me of something from another post today, about experts constantly reinventing the wheel

20:32:13 [jerryasher]

because they are often too cloistered or not interested in learning about other's activities.

20:32:45 [jerryasher]

Today though is really "clean the office" day.

20:33:00 [jerryasher]

God I hate "clean the office" day.

20:33:07 [k2pts]

it's incredible. I mean after we finished the acs-sc with Kapil, we found out that it was very much alike with the "Abstract Factory Pattern". My house is a mess :)

20:33:37 [jerryasher]

Is there any documentation on the acs-sc aside from that one posting I referenced?

20:33:44 [jerryasher]

(It's now six weeks later.)

20:34:11 [k2pts]

Kapil wrote a pretty nice guide. it's in acs-service-contract/www/doc/index.html

20:34:26 [jerryasher]

Okay, thanks I'll take a look at that too.

20:34:57 [k2pts]

the paper should help you understand the basic concept better. I intend to update the documentation now that we have some references (it will be much easier)

20:35:25 [jerryasher]

I'll have to look up the Abstract Factory Pattern once more. An underlying pattern for patterns is also the

20:35:41 [jerryasher]

experts reinvent the wheel because they don't want to learn about others stuff pattern

20:35:54 [k2pts]

while reading it, skip the code and the window stuff. It also suggests some things that need to be improved in acs-sc.

20:35:57 [jerryasher]

or because they want a new name.

20:36:10 [k2pts]

:)

20:36:45 [k2pts]

We had long discussions with Kapil on whether to use the name "interface" or "contract". I wanted "contract" for my own selfish reasons, I admit it.

20:36:50 [k2pts]

:)

20:37:03 [jerryasher]

Really? I like contract a lot.

20:37:21 [jerryasher]

Anyway, I think I need to fill up a few more boxes of crap and move them down the stairs. But I'll be lurking around

20:37:33 [k2pts]

it will be very useful in helping you implement the RSS package stuff

20:37:42 [k2pts]

that you were discussing on the forums the past few days

20:38:08 [k2pts]

ok, later

20:38:32 [jerryasher]

later.

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20:57:16 [docwolf]

hi all

20:57:37 [docwolf]

how was the networking, jerry? ;-)

21:03:18 [jerryasher]

Hey doc! I'm just lurking here today while trying to cleanup the office....

21:03:43 [jerryasher]

The networking was so so. At times like this it's

21:03:48 [jerryasher]

everyone just looking for jobs.

21:04:01 [jerryasher]

depressing, especially when I am one of them!

21:04:13 [jerryasher]

That of course, and talk of the homecoming game.

21:04:48 [docwolf]

ugh

21:04:50 [docwolf]

i know what you mean

21:04:56 [docwolf]

it's pretty bleak

21:04:59 [docwolf]

on the other hand...

21:05:05 [docwolf]

I think the IRS is getting soft.

21:05:21 [jerryasher]

uh, what's that mean

21:05:22 [docwolf]

they just informed me that i'm due for a refund -- from stuff filed 2 years ago

21:05:31 [docwolf]

it's like pennies from heaven ;-)

21:05:39 [docwolf]

maybe the organization really is cleaning itself up.

21:05:58 [docwolf]

but man, getting a really think envelope from the IRS

21:06:04 [docwolf]

is like one of the scariest moments :-)

21:06:27 [docwolf]

it's totally weird... i guess with the repubs in power

21:06:34 [jerryasher]

Hmm. I got just such an envelope yesterday at home, it's so scary it's still sitting unopened.

21:06:39 [docwolf]

haha

21:06:49 [jerryasher]

Maybe I should open it then....

21:06:51 [docwolf]

when i saw this envelope, i thought for sure: AUDIT

21:07:06 [docwolf]

but instead, it proposed a refund, and explained why... who am i to argue?

21:07:43 [jerryasher]

Interesting comparison of risk:

21:07:49 [jerryasher]

Poll Americans: ask

21:08:08 [jerryasher]

What's more likely, what's more likely to harm you, an envelope containing

21:08:15 [jerryasher]

a message from the irs?

21:08:19 [jerryasher]

or

21:08:25 [jerryasher]

anthrax?

21:09:33 [docwolf]

haha

21:09:42 [docwolf]

anthrax is easier to deal with

21:10:06 [jerryasher]

that's true: you can't get rid of the irs after exposure in just 60 days

21:12:34 [jerryasher]

Well, mentioning the IRS makes me think I need to get back to cleaning the office,

21:13:06 [jerryasher]

I am cleaning the office to clear a desk to prepare the records to take to an accountant to prepare the forms to file to the irs

21:13:15 [docwolf]

ugh

21:13:22 [jerryasher]

I died, of course.

21:22:29 [rbm]

any regexp experts around?

21:28:34 [rbm]

nm. got it.

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22:28:30 [talli]

hello all

22:30:20 [davb]

hi

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22:41:21 [docwolf]

hola davb

22:43:58 [davb]

hi docwolf

22:47:34 [docwolf]

i am getting worried

22:47:38 [docwolf]

about this hurricane issue

22:48:26 [davb]

Woah. I need to pay more attention to the news. I did now know.

22:49:24 [docwolf]

yeah. it looks a tad worrisome

22:51:38 [docwolf]

looks like i'm within the statistical margin of error for the storm path

22:51:41 [docwolf]

fantastic.

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23:29:22 [Spork]

heh

23:29:27 [Spork]

this rocks

23:29:49 [davb]

whats that?

23:30:12 [davb]

* davb fixes the laptop keyboard with some mild physical persuasion

23:36:23 [Spork]

anyone know how to tell if a monitor screen is polarized

23:42:07 [davb]

look in the manual?

23:42:20 [Spork]

I can't find it

23:42:21 [Spork]

lol

23:42:29 [davb]

I wish I understood half of this computer programming stuff...

23:43:20 [Spork]

hmmm?

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23:47:46 [davb]

hi hazmat

23:48:07 [hazmat]

hi davb, hows it going

23:48:18 [davb]

Spork: I was reading, or rather trying to read that paper on contracts and it makes almost no sense to me :)

23:48:24 [davb]

Not bad. taking it easy.

23:48:56 [davb]

distracting people from the main mission on the bboard, you know, regular stuff

23:49:32 [Spork]

what paper on contracts?

23:50:12 [hazmat]

i wanna check the paper out but i think there are much better intros to component oriented programming.

23:51:29 [davb]

http://www.cs.rice.edu/~robby/contract-reading-list/ec900169.pdf

23:51:48 [davb]

Do you mind mentioning which ones?

23:52:10 [hazmat]

first one that comes to mind is clemens syzperski's book, hold on a sec, i'll dig it up.

23:53:08 [davb]

thanks

23:53:31 [davb]

I think it will still be over my head, but I'll save it for future reference :)

23:54:34 [adler]

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23:54:41 [Spork]

in case anyone cares

23:54:57 [Spork]

I picked up a 200mb cd-rw and a a few mini cd-r's and 90 minute cd-r's

23:55:44 [hazmat]

its more of a high level overview, but it does some serious demystifying on component software, and helps get a better intuitive feel for the stuff (imo), Clemens Szyperski's Component Software http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201178885/qid=1004831760/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_7_2/103-4305794-8787802