00:11:24 <davb> What is good for ripping MP3s in Linux?
00:12:02 <Psychephylax> dave hold on
00:12:07 <davb> ok
00:12:08 <Psychephylax> oh phone I will give you music
00:12:14 <Psychephylax> and places for music
00:12:16 <davb> heh
00:12:34 <davb> thanks
00:13:03 <Psychephylax> ugh
00:13:08 <Psychephylax> stupid voice recognition help
00:13:21 <Psychephylax> What happened to regular "hold music"
00:14:16 <Psychephylax> dave i think there's a problem with either OACS or AOLServer
00:14:42 <Psychephylax> Remember don trying to figure it out why it kept crapping out selecting manager from acs_privileges?
00:14:58 <Psychephylax> or perhaps my oracle install
00:15:05 <davb> yeah.
00:15:14 <Psychephylax> because it did the same thing today
00:15:22 <Psychephylax> But after a while it just started working again
00:15:25 <davb> weird. 
00:15:27 <davb> Really weird.
00:15:32 <davb> People are using it though.
00:15:37 <davb> I wonder what it could be.
00:16:00 <davb> You might need to put some logging code in there to see what's happening.
00:17:47 <Psychephylax> hmmmm
00:20:42 <davb> freeamp keeps crashing.
00:22:22 <Psychephylax> ok
00:22:25 <Psychephylax> you're sooo wrong :P
00:22:27 <Psychephylax> get XMMS
00:22:30 <Psychephylax> It never crashes
00:22:32 <davb> I have it.
00:22:38 <davb> Freeamp sounded cool.
00:22:42 <Psychephylax> for streaming music: http://www.spinner.com
00:22:55 <Psychephylax> and http://www.sputnik7.com
00:23:01 <rbm> rbm has quit
00:23:09 <davb> Thanks.
00:23:17 <Psychephylax> no problem
00:23:21 <davb> * davb needs some new music to work by
00:23:24 <Psychephylax> heh
00:23:29 <Psychephylax> oh www.digitallyimported.com
00:23:37 <Psychephylax> I don't know if you have all the plugins installed
00:23:45 <Psychephylax> they _should_ be supported
00:25:16 <davb> cool.
00:25:44 <Psychephylax> Sure
00:27:56 <davb> Ok. I figured it out. Freeamp is not working for me. Can I get my browser to play these things in XMMS automagically?
00:28:28 <donb> donb has joined #openacs
00:28:37 <davb> Hi donb.
00:28:46 <donb> Howdy, Dave ...
00:29:36 <donb> Is "andrew" Andrew Spencer?
00:29:45 <Psychephylax> hey don
00:29:50 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax is now known as Spork
00:29:54 <Spork> Spork is now known as Psychephylax
00:30:15 <Psychephylax> Remember you trying to help me with that problem where it couldn't find manager in privileges?
00:30:18 <Psychephylax> It happened again
00:30:24 <donb> You're kidding!
00:30:27 <Psychephylax> No
00:30:35 <Psychephylax> and once again the problem went away on it's own
00:30:48 <donb> That is too weird ... which db is this, Oracle???
00:30:48 <Psychephylax> I think there might be some sort of a cache 
00:30:51 <Psychephylax> Oracle
00:30:59 <donb> There must be some caching going on, yes.
00:31:05 <talli> talli has joined #openacs
00:31:07 <Psychephylax> ok
00:31:11 <Psychephylax> Odd though but ok
00:31:25 <talli> hey guys
00:31:43 <talli> it's a friday night. i live in new york city. i love IRC!!!
00:31:46 <davb> hi talli
00:31:51 <davb> uh....
00:32:07 <talli> where's rbm?
00:32:14 <donb> I'm seeing some weird, caching-related results with the glossary package, where a templated page returns a different result than you'd expect from the query that I see run in the log file, both Oracle and PG ...
00:32:32 <Psychephylax> heh
00:32:33 <Psychephylax> odd
00:32:40 <donb> Talli?  Dial-up?  Sheesh ... and you live in NYC and can't find anything better to do on a Friday night than hang out here?
00:32:58 <Psychephylax> talli me and my friend are hanging out....You up for getting drunk?
00:33:32 <talli> my mother is in town
00:33:39 <talli> how's that for extra loser?
00:33:41 <Psychephylax> She can get drunk too
00:33:43 <donb> Ohhhh....
00:33:51 <Psychephylax> :-)
00:34:08 <talli> i need to finish a proposal due monday too
00:34:21 <talli> so my life does not journey far from OPenACS
00:34:23 <donb> Poor talli ...
00:35:11 <talli> well, donb, if i lived in the thriving metropolis of portland, OR, i would be out playing music with my ewok friends.
00:35:20 <davb> Psychephylax: should I be able to open a .pls file in the browser and send it to XMMS?
00:35:29 <donb> I guess andrew's not around, eh?
00:35:35 <Psychephylax> I'm not sure
00:35:41 <Psychephylax> I don't recall how XMMS stores them
00:35:56 <davb> ok. maybe I'll read the docs one of these days.
00:36:06 <Psychephylax> I just usually "Select directory" and then it reads in all the mp3s from my dir so I can play them
00:36:56 <donb> So everyone's bought XP and uses Windows Media Player now? :)
00:37:29 <Psychephylax> no
00:37:33 <davb> Oh yeah, i forgot. That makes everything better :)
00:37:40 <Psychephylax> I use win2k, freebsd4.3 and mandrake :P
00:37:45 <Psychephylax> and win98se for games
00:37:48 <talli> on tv yesterday, i saw that XP makes people fly!
00:37:54 <Psychephylax> rofl
00:38:36 <donb> Yes, I saw that too the other day.  Followed by a Southwest Airlines commercial that said "you can't e-mail a kiss, can't fax a hug" etc etc, which I thought was hilarious and which I bet didn't make MS too happy.  Followed one after the other ...
00:39:08 <talli> you can't? are you saying all that porn is NOT real?
00:39:37 <talli> christ, don, you're screwing with my world!
00:42:12 <donb> Heh ... someone I know here who has OS/X on their laptop hooked it up to their DSL line and gave me root access via sudo so I could help with some admin stuff.  Apparently OS X stores your browsing history (the domain names, anyway) in your /etc/hosts file.  Along with the mac help, portland-oriented and similar sites in the list were a couple of dozen porn sites (obvious from their domain names).  You can find out strange things about people when you 
00:43:03 <Psychephylax> hah
00:44:20 <davb> darn freeamp has somehow hijacked my settings.
00:44:35 <Psychephylax> :/
00:44:43 <donb> I wonder how well XP will perform for games?
00:46:58 <donb> Ahh, well, I'm going to take off.  Enjoy your mother, talli (not literally, of course!)
00:47:22 <donb> donb has quit
00:50:54 <davb> I can't get it to work.
00:54:05 <talli> talli has quit
00:58:07 <davb> aha. i have found the secret. 
00:58:21 <davb> .pls playlists don't seem to work with xmms
01:09:05 <davb> brb
01:09:06 <davb> davb has quit
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01:27:09 <davb> davb has quit
01:57:16 <rbm> rbm has joined #openacs
01:57:28 <rbm> AHA! I knew I had been disconnecte.d
01:57:30 <rbm> * rbm hates the USU flakey network
02:10:20 <davb> davb has joined #openacs
02:11:26 <davb> how exactly do you nework the flakeys?
02:15:02 <rbm> The morpheus and gnutella users keep screwing up thing.s
02:15:08 <rbm> Not to mention the ISS users.
02:15:52 <davb> aha. They need one of those things I saw at some trade show. You can configure it to allow a set amount of bandwidth for various protocols. pretty spiffy.
02:16:24 <davb> Of course, I think you can do the same thing with a Linux box and the right softare.
02:16:40 <davb> Aha. It was called Packeteer. 
02:18:20 <rbm> or the kernel traffic shaper
02:18:35 <davb> oh yeah. same thing.
02:19:04 <davb> Anyway they can't even get their graphic designer to create graphic test correctly.
02:19:55 <rbm> they who?
02:20:42 <davb> Packeteer
02:21:27 <rbm> oh
02:21:47 <davb> * davb is tired, its not the time for jokes...
02:25:01 <davb> http://web.siliconvalley.com/content/sv/2001/10/26/opinion/dgillmor/weblog/tbl.htm
02:25:01 <chump> C: http://web.siliconvalley.com/content/sv/2001/10/26/opinion/dgillmor/weblog/tbl.htm from davb
02:25:32 <davb> C:|Dan Gillmor interview Tim Berners-Lee about the new MSN Compliance strategy
02:25:32 <chump> titled item C
02:26:21 <davb> Running the msn.com homepage through the validator on Friday showed the site did not use valid XHTML and did not meet the Web Content
02:26:21 <davb> Accessibility Guidelines.
02:26:28 <davb> C: "Running the msn.com homepage through the validator on Friday showed the site did not use valid XHTML and did not meet the Web Content
02:26:28 <chump> commented item C
02:26:28 <davb> Accessibility Guidelines.
02:26:43 <davb> C: Accessibility Guidelines. "
02:26:44 <chump> commented item C
02:39:21 <docwolf> docwolf has joined #openacs
02:39:32 <davb> Hi docwolf
02:39:34 <davb> C:
02:39:34 <chump> http://web.siliconvalley.com/content/sv/2001/10/26/opinion/dgillmor/weblog/tbl.htm
02:39:35 <chump> Dan Gillmor interview Tim Berners-Lee about the new MSN Compliance strategy
02:39:36 <docwolf> good evening.
02:39:36 <chump> (davb) "Running the msn.com homepage through the validator on Friday showed the site did not use valid XHTML and did not meet the Web Content
02:39:37 <chump> (davb) Accessibility Guidelines. "
02:40:19 <davb> http://www.obdev.at/products/launchbar/index.html
02:40:19 <chump> D: http://www.obdev.at/products/launchbar/index.html from davb
02:40:29 <davb> D:|Launchbar for Mac OS X
02:40:30 <chump> titled item D
02:40:41 <davb> D: cool. I need this. I might have to buy a Mac.
02:40:41 <chump> commented item D
02:41:01 <davb> D: this builds a library of short abbreviations for commonly used program, web sites, etc...
02:41:01 <chump> commented item D
03:20:33 <davb> davb has quit
04:18:48 <rbm> hmm
04:39:22 <chump> chump has quit
04:40:28 <Psychephylax> wow
04:40:59 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax pokes rbm in the eye with a loggy the size of jerryasher coated with abbaJ 
04:41:14 <rbm> AHHHHH! My eye! My eye!
04:41:22 <rbm> * rbm is doing UML hmwk
04:41:32 <Psychephylax> Oh boy! 
04:41:53 <Psychephylax> Collaboration, sequence, deployment (diagrams) oh my!
04:42:54 <Psychephylax> I had fun tonight
04:43:41 <rbm> You need drugs to see this surreal stuff
04:44:00 <Psychephylax> UML?
04:44:07 <Psychephylax> I always did mine with a bottle of beer
04:44:23 <rbm> Alcohol will do as a drug :)
04:44:50 <Psychephylax> i know
04:45:07 <Psychephylax> I remember last semester I was doing one of my projects
04:46:35 <Psychephylax> and it just did not work
04:46:35 <Psychephylax> I went out Friday night and got a 12 pack of beer....Saturday night and 11 bottles later my project not only made sence it also worked 
04:46:35 <rbm> heheh
04:48:13 <Psychephylax> :)
04:48:16 <Psychephylax> Try it! It works!
04:49:03 <Psychephylax> Anyone ever see "The Professional"
04:49:55 <rbm> yes. Good show.
04:54:20 <Psychephylax> show?
04:54:22 <Psychephylax> You mean movie>
04:55:55 <rbm> yes. flick, show, movie.
04:56:00 <Psychephylax> ah
04:56:09 <Psychephylax> yeah I got the DVD
04:56:24 <Psychephylax> The Replacement killers is also good
04:57:38 <rbm> Stop talking about movies! I wish I could be watching one instead of working on this @#$*(!@#%! assignment :)
04:57:48 <Psychephylax> lol
04:57:56 <Psychephylax> What's the ass-in-gnment
04:58:10 <rbm> design a bunch of diagrams for a system
04:58:15 <Psychephylax> ic
04:58:21 <rbm> class and interaction diagrams specifically
04:58:22 <Psychephylax> which diagrams and what system
04:58:26 <Psychephylax> oh
04:58:29 <Psychephylax> class diagrams are easy
04:58:56 <Psychephylax> Interaction..ummmm...don't remember...you mean use case diagrams?
04:59:09 <rbm> no. sequence and collaboration diagrams.
04:59:23 <Psychephylax> ah
04:59:29 <Psychephylax> yeah sequence ones are annoying
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13:18:50 <rbm> * rbm wakes up
13:21:59 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax follows rbm's lead
13:22:34 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax pokes dave in the eye with a loggy the size of a abbaJ 
13:23:44 <rbm> man it's too early for me
13:23:48 <Psychephylax> me too
13:23:59 <Psychephylax> It's 9:22 and I was supposed to go somewhere
13:24:00 <rbm> * rbm is writing a presentation about PostgreSQL
13:24:03 <Psychephylax> ANd I think my parents left
13:24:06 <rbm> It's 7:25 here :)
13:24:06 <Psychephylax> without me
13:24:42 <Psychephylax> yikes
13:25:17 <rbm> * rbm tries to make breakfast magically appear by saying "Alakhazam!", uncessucssessfully
13:25:39 <rbm> I think I have one too many "s" in there
13:25:52 <Psychephylax> yeah 
13:25:59 <Psychephylax> some of them got left over from "suck" lol
13:26:09 <Psychephylax> Because your process of making food appear sucks!
13:26:17 <rbm> heh
13:26:18 <Psychephylax> Everyone knows you gotta dial the phone
13:26:47 <Psychephylax> just gotta figure out who or where to dial it to
13:29:49 <Psychephylax> i'm gonna go sleep some more
13:36:04 <rbm> :)
13:54:44 <davb> damn, I can get to MSN.com again.
13:55:07 <davb> although the new site looks pretty good.
13:57:05 <davb> darn. I got that stubborn CD to copy, but it looks like the file is corrupted.
14:01:36 <davb> davb has quit
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14:27:54 <davb> Hi vinod
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15:03:05 <davb> * davb downloads OpenFTS to attempt adding searchabilty to static-pages
15:04:41 <talli> talli has joined #openacs
15:04:49 <talli> hey guys
15:04:51 <talli> good morning
15:04:57 <davb> hi
15:07:24 <davb> hmmmm.. i don't think I have the psotgresql source. uhoh.
15:07:58 <rbm> morning
15:08:11 <davb> rbm have you looked at the search pacakge?
15:09:09 <rbm> davb: no
15:09:14 <rbm> Who's heading it?
15:09:18 <rbm> Isn't it Dan?
15:09:31 <rbm> Dan and Neophytos I mean
15:09:49 <davb> yeah. 
15:09:58 <davb> Ok.
15:10:57 <rbm> davb: If Dan is heading it, there's no need for me to look at it. It's awesome.
15:13:17 <davb> I can't find the openfts-driver....
15:13:39 <vinod> hey guys
15:14:15 <rbm> davb: Isn't it in the openfts tarball?
15:15:41 <davb> could be. didn't check there...i thought it was in the CVS
15:15:44 <davb> for openacs4
15:16:02 <davb> aha!
15:16:04 <davb> thanks rbm
15:16:37 <rbm> np
15:20:19 <vinod> * vinod *loves* bandwidth
15:20:30 <davb> argh. its screwing up.
15:23:15 <davb> i think it can;t find postgresql
15:24:21 <vinod> i haven't tried to mess with search or openfts yet... sorry
15:24:40 <talli> rbm and vinod: did you get my email last night?
15:24:45 <talli> i replied to rbm's
15:28:19 <davb> Ok. how come libpq.sql in is /usr/lib?
15:28:37 <davb> libpq.so i mean.
15:36:31 <rbm> talli: yes
15:37:13 <vinod> talli: yup. got em. overall i think it looks like a great start. i'm working this wknd, so i'll reply ASAP
15:37:36 <talli> ok, cool
15:37:45 <talli> i'll write up some more thoughts in a bit
15:37:52 <talli> going to the office, so i'll do it there.
15:38:41 <talli> talli has quit
15:38:53 <davb> phew. what a pain. I got OpenFTS built.
15:51:52 <davb> oops no i didn't.
16:01:41 <davb> wowhoo.
16:02:02 <davb> What a pain. I don't know if its debian's fault for putting stuff in an unexpected place or what/
16:05:17 <davb> I created the C module, but I can't find the SQL file I need.
16:10:41 <davb> never mind.
16:12:04 <talli> talli has joined #openacs
16:12:38 <shagster> shagster has joined #openacs
16:30:51 <davb> ok i got everything installed but I am getting an error message with OpenFTS
16:32:13 <yPsychephlax> yPsychephlax has joined #openacs
16:32:19 <yPsychephlax> yPsychephlax is now known as Spork
16:32:53 <Mugatu-404> Mugatu-404 has joined #openacs
16:32:57 <Spork> Spork is now known as eep
16:33:03 <Mugatu-404> Mugatu-404 is now known as Spork
16:34:32 <davb> oh no, they're multiplying!
16:36:14 <eep> eep is now known as Spork^2
16:36:49 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax is now known as Spork^3
16:37:10 <Spork> I can get a few more in here and it won't clone =)
16:38:54 <Spork> ummm
16:39:04 <Spork> stupid question but why isn't #openacs registered?
16:39:09 <Spork> oh
16:39:13 <Spork> nm..needed a #
16:39:29 <Spork> Spork is now known as Psychephylax
16:39:51 <Psychephylax> ok now that my nicks are registered =)
16:40:06 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax has quit
16:40:22 <Spork^3> Spork^3 is now known as Spork
16:41:09 <Spork> :-)
16:41:24 <Spork^2> *sigh*
16:41:31 <Spork^2> time to go travel to Brooklyn
16:41:34 <Spork^2> be back l8r
16:41:38 <Spork^2> Spork^2 has quit
16:45:52 <talli> crooklyn in the house!
16:48:29 <adler> adler has joined #openacs
16:48:59 <adler> hola amigos
16:51:36 <talli> adler, do you work at sixgirls.org?
16:59:40 <davb> hello adler
17:00:33 <adler> talli - not exactly, though I do collaborate. why do you ask?
17:00:51 <adler> hey davb. 
17:00:55 <talli> just wodnering. the org (or is it a company) seems really cool
17:01:05 <talli> i like the idea of wireless in thompkins square park!
17:01:31 <adler> yeah. John (who runs sixgirls) gave me a WavLAN card for my VAIO, but I don't think it works. 
17:02:14 <adler> I wasn't all that interested before it happened, but now that it's available, it has got me all 'hot and bothered'
17:02:17 <talli> the wavlan or the wireless in thompkins?
17:02:24 <adler> just the card
17:02:27 <talli> if there is wireless there, i'm going!
17:02:42 <talli> my friend lives right there. too bad i didn't know about this summer :(
17:02:53 <talli> where in NYC are you adler?
17:03:03 <adler> Yeah, it should be working. Plus, John has IPv6 working, which can very useful in some circumstances. 
17:03:14 <adler> actually, it was just installed a few weeks ago
17:03:23 <talli> cool. i'm gonna check it out!
17:03:40 <adler> I live in Brooklyn. Today, I'm in the NYPL (another place for free bandwidth)
17:03:41 <talli> my friend lives on 7th bet a and b (or is it b and c?)
17:03:54 <talli> anyway looks onto thompkin
17:04:02 <talli> they have free bandwidth there? wireless?
17:04:09 <adler> John's trying to set up a variety of wireless connections.
17:04:40 <talli> that's awesome. who is sixgirls? is it a company or an org?
17:04:52 <adler> up in the Rose Reading Room on 42nd/5th there is a beautiful large room and ethernet ports 
17:05:02 <talli> killer!
17:05:13 <talli> another reason to love NYC, i guess...
17:05:16 <adler> yeah. it's the primary reason i got a tiny laptop
17:05:27 <talli> and that's not love in the fucked up, commercial giuliani/disney way either
17:06:06 <adler> sixgirls is basically just John. He's a friendly hacker who does sysadmin consulting, but mostly enjoys collaborating on fun stuff. He has many netbsd boxes set up around manhattan.
17:06:18 <talli> killer!
17:06:21 <talli> is he good?
17:06:30 <talli> we actually need a sysadmin consultant...
17:06:44 <adler> no, its the old-school, civic minded and cool architecture way
17:06:45 <talli> and we're also a bunch of friendly hackers
17:07:07 <talli> what do you do adler?
17:07:30 <adler> John is very skilled. I've learned alot from him. I'm happy to recommend him, though he enjoys doing things his own way.
17:07:55 <talli> that's cool. i have some musea needs but also some other things that i need a good sysadmin for
17:08:14 <adler> I'm a freelance web/db guy, eager to participate with OACS.
17:08:24 <talli> cool. and you're in nyc... good to know.
17:08:25 <docwolf> docwolf has quit
17:08:49 <adler> Yeah. If there's another 'social' I will appear. Perhaps with beer. 
17:08:54 <talli> cool!
17:09:05 <talli> good to know. we need to set up another one soon.
17:09:18 <talli> we can always have adhoc OACS socials, you know
17:09:31 <vinod> did i hear beer?
17:09:37 <talli> the thing with the socials is sometimes people come from all over
17:09:47 <talli> like the freak show named dr. kurup
17:10:04 <vinod> i got 2 patients waiting, but i can be in nyc in 3 hrs
17:10:08 <talli> vinod, you've been to every oacs social on the east coas, right?
17:10:15 <talli> bring them along!
17:10:17 <davb> wow. 
17:10:22 <adler> I'm working with the Park Slope Food coop. They could really use a OACS setup. The trouble is that don't devote a whole lot of resources to their site (just a few hours from various folks, each month) and so suggesting they explore OACS is a little grandiose, at least to their ears
17:10:29 <talli> oh, right!
17:10:35 <vinod> talli: they're kinda sick
17:10:36 <talli> we met at the boston social!
17:10:54 <adler> briefly.
17:11:03 <talli> you were speaking with pat, right?
17:11:23 <adler> yes. He revived my interest in WFMU.
17:11:45 <talli> we're working with the brooklyn museum of art right now on an acs site, so maybe you'll be able to point them to that afterwards
17:11:54 <adler> I chatted with most of the musea folks and had a nice time. 
17:12:10 <adler> Actually, I'll just mention it. 
17:12:31 <talli> both of the guys that we work with at BMA live in brooklyn. i spoke with one, actually, about community grocery
17:12:39 <talli> so they may be of help, too
17:13:27 <adler> Talli - how much managed hosting does musea do? Is it just a side show as a community support thing?
17:13:41 <talli> well, that's a good quetsion...
17:13:51 <talli> we going to get out of hosting because it's just too damn much work
17:14:08 <adler> that's a shame. 
17:14:15 <talli> but we can do managed hosting, which would be, probably, between 500-1K
17:14:17 <talli> a month
17:14:18 <adler> but I can see how that's the case.
17:14:33 <talli> yeah, at some point i will work something out creatively to make it happen
17:15:03 <talli> but MAH (managed app hosting) usually consists of more than just "here's some space and go to it"
17:15:09 <adler> Yeah. I could pitch the ~35 /month to the coop, then sneakily start integrating templates and user-services before they knew what hit them.
17:15:12 <talli> it includes all the monitoring and backups nad updates and so on
17:16:07 <talli> let's talk about tihs some more
17:16:10 <adler> plus it comes with the panix seal of approval.
17:16:15 <talli> is john @ sixgirls expensive?
17:16:54 <adler> No, john generally goes for whatever. The issue is that he typically runs NetBSD, which doesn't mix well with AOLserver..
17:17:27 <talli> :)
17:17:30 <talli> do they like panix?
17:17:45 <talli> it's weird, those in the know and in NYC know that panix can't be beat
17:18:29 <talli> but when i suggested that we host the openacs server at panix one of the gatekeepers (i won't say who) did not respond favorably to the "level of service" at panix
17:18:36 <adler> The coop? I wouldn't quite call them 'in the know', but yeah panix has earned approval from some venerable nyc hackers..
17:19:42 <adler> I've never had any experience with them ..
17:20:04 <talli> they are very good, although they are also grouchy sysadmins
17:21:46 <adler> adler has quit
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17:22:17 <adler> little glitch.
17:23:06 <adler> so you folks have some office space in downtown Brooklyn
17:23:07 <adler> ?
17:28:06 <adler> does anyone ever use OACS with lynx/links?
17:28:53 <talli> adler: our office is in DUMBO
17:29:31 <talli> Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass, for those non-hipster, nonNYC livin' OACSers. and vinod
17:30:06 <adler> do you still notice the 'wtc smell'?
17:31:12 <talli> no. and i live about 10 blocks from there in Manhattan. but my nose doesn't work very well
17:32:23 <adler> People keep remarking about it. I suggest that they would benefit from therapy.
17:32:46 <talli> yeah, i might agree.
17:32:52 <talli> i think NYC always smells weird
17:33:24 <talli> sometimes when i come out of my buildign there is a distinct smoky smell, sometimes it's a bit chemical. but mostly it's fine
17:33:36 <adler> at least it's not chinatown
17:34:02 <talli> oh christ. thank god it's not chinatown. that place actually smells like china.
17:34:08 <adler> haha
17:34:36 <talli> adler: you ever go to tonic on the lower east side?
17:34:58 <adler> i actually played there once *beems proudly*
17:35:03 <talli> whoa
17:35:05 <talli> whoa whoa
17:35:12 <talli> what do you play?
17:35:40 <adler> it's more like I am fortunate to have some serious musicians as friends.
17:35:50 <talli> nice. that's even cooler.
17:35:54 <talli> who did you play with?
17:36:18 <talli> for me, tonic and the downtown jazz scene are THE reason to love NYC
17:36:22 <adler> I was one in  ~10 people on stage. I played a hand drum and some homemade electronics.
17:36:47 <talli> killer
17:36:58 <adler> yeah, that's a bonus if there ever was one. 
17:37:11 <talli> my bro is a dj in California at a college radio station called KFJC
17:37:38 <talli> he did a show called "Late,Lit and Live" where he played a whole bunch of live Sexmob shows
17:37:49 <talli> he got the cds from steve bernstein
17:37:58 <talli> i'm listening to a mix of those cds right now
17:38:04 <talli> those dudes are amazing
17:38:29 <adler> I met the quasi-girlfriend of that Sexmob drummer. I was instantly in-crush
17:38:37 <adler> Kenny.. someone
17:38:43 <talli> kenny wolleson
17:38:54 <talli> one of the weirder dudes in the world. he's from santa cruz
17:38:59 <adler> I haven't heard that stuff, much. 
17:39:05 <talli> sexmob?
17:39:08 <adler> right. 
17:39:12 <talli> go get Solid Sender, their second album
17:39:25 <talli> they just came out with a cd called Sexmob does Bond
17:39:32 <adler> I generally mooch off my accumulator-type friend.
17:39:42 <adler> as in James Bond?
17:39:45 <talli> which is awesome. but Solid Sender is unique
17:39:46 <talli> yeah.
17:39:50 <talli> you have earphones with you?
17:39:54 <adler> yep
17:40:07 <adler> listening to mouse on mars.
17:40:08 <talli> go to sexmob.com and check out the Nobody Does it Better mp3
17:40:15 <talli> don't know them
17:40:37 <talli> medeski plays organ on that song
17:40:45 <talli> i listened to it this morning on earphones
17:40:49 <talli> it made me cry
17:40:59 <talli> literally. i had tears in my eyes
17:41:31 <adler> heh. I get that sometimes. But not generally from the jazz vein.
17:42:02 <adler> the song is tender.
17:42:24 <adler> the encoding is not so tender.
17:42:43 <adler> I'd play this at my wedding.
17:43:20 <talli> what? the sexmob song?
17:43:38 <talli> i'd play it in the midst of passion. it will be my sex songtrack
17:44:18 <adler> yeah, it may be a little too steamy for a wedding..
17:47:50 <adler> and it ends with a very post-ejaculatory mode
17:48:27 <talli> sexmob music is amazing. bernstein, the leader, is a totally obsessed with sex
17:49:25 <adler> i wish my fascination with sex could make me amazing. it generally secures a different stigma.
17:49:27 <talli> and so many of the songs are arranged using the, uhm, process of sex
17:50:09 <talli> so the beginning the song is foreplay, then it gets a little faster until it hits climax and then there's a post-coitus segment
17:50:13 <talli> it's hilarious
17:50:41 <talli> yes, i wish my perversions would bring out something unique and creative as well.
17:50:54 <talli> at least, i wish OTHER PEOPLE would recognize they were unique and creative
17:50:59 <talli> other than vinod, that is\
17:51:04 <adler> :)
17:51:32 <talli> openacs IRC on saturdays - jazz, sex and software
17:52:06 <adler> I think it would be better to be a repressed homosexual--then all the passion would be sublimated into something practical
17:53:08 <adler> this mating stuff hasn't made me any money or fame.
17:53:35 <adler> :)
17:54:30 <talli> yes, homosexual repression would be a much preferred mental state, wouldn't it. at least from a max weber, protestant productivity view point.
17:54:55 <talli> i don;t think i would enjoy wearing such tight pants, though
17:56:51 <adler> have you done much work with ecommerce package?
17:57:22 <talli> no, neither the 3.x version nor the 4 version
17:57:43 <adler> do you know of someone who has?
17:59:35 <talli> gilbert wong is working on the OACS4 version.
17:59:53 <talli> and walter mcginnis has ported the ACS3.4 ecommerce package to work with ACS4.2
18:00:19 <talli> but i must admit i'm not too familiar with anyone who worked with ecommerce 3.2.x, or OACS ecommer
18:00:25 <talli> and i pity anyone that may have tried
18:00:29 <talli> what are you looking to use it for?
18:00:45 <talli> have you looked at interchange? the ecommerce product that redhat is supporting now?
18:00:57 <talli> i beleive it is at akopia.redhat.com or interchange.redhat.com
18:01:30 <talli> it's a perl based system that supposedly works with PG and i think AOLserver
18:01:41 <talli> for sure it works with PG, i don't really know about AOLserver
18:01:46 <adler> I did take a look a little while back. 
18:02:03 <adler> I want to build some auction management tools
18:02:11 <talli> cool
18:02:13 <talli> for what?
18:02:43 <vinod> shoot - i missed the perversions discussion
18:02:46 <adler> small businesses. right now, there's a jewelry company and record shop.
18:03:06 <talli> one way you might be able to get the PS food coop to think about OACS is not so much for a website but for their db aps
18:03:12 <talli> yeah, sorry vinod
18:03:24 <adler> vinod - i'm sure we're not spent.
18:03:25 <talli> i tried to get you in there. i even singled you out as a pervert!
18:03:38 <vinod> i saw that - much appreciated
18:03:43 <talli> anytime
18:03:58 <vinod> i probably shouldn't be talkin about perversions while i'm seeing patients though
18:04:09 <vinod> they think i'm weird enough as it is
18:04:17 <adler> talli- actually, i think i have to start very small with the coop. they work very incrementally there since there enormous overhead in large scale organization
18:04:23 <talli> you probably shouldn't be chatting in IRC when your seeing patients either :)
18:04:43 <vinod> talli: ssshhhh - they  think i'm looking up labs or something
18:04:52 <vinod> just kidding, of course
18:05:13 <talli> adler: what i was goign to say is that the techrocks, a major foundation backed by the rockefeller fdn, is planning on building their OSS donor management system on OACS
18:05:44 <talli> so i don't know what the coop uses right now for managing its members, but within 6 months or so there will be a very powerful, free donor management system
18:06:24 <talli> i don;t know what they use right now, but if it's any of the commercial products out there then they are probably spending a lot for performance that is so so
18:06:45 <vinod> talli: cool!
18:07:03 <talli> vinod: we also can talk about your repressed homosexuality, if you would like
18:07:39 <adler> I forget what db technology they use.. probably 10 year old, custom MAC technology. It goes beyond donor management since every shopper is a member and so there is a great deal to keep track of. 
18:08:39 <adler> Actually, I think they will be expanding there use of 'electronic' dbs.. and it would be great to steer them towards open source. 
18:08:58 <talli> well, when they do, we would love to work with you.
18:09:18 <vinod> talli: is my homosexuality really repressed? - i've been making passes at you for months
18:09:44 <talli> i'm actually working on an RFP right now for an AIDS org in SF that delivers meals to homebound patients. they have everything in a DOS based clipper db
18:09:50 <talli> it's so bad it's funny
18:10:06 <talli> they have over 5K members, 25 staffers and 2 offices
18:10:18 <talli> but it take 3 MINUTES for the DB to process an add
18:11:04 <talli> vinod: you have??!! damn. i always miss that stuff. or maybe you're just really bad at it.
18:11:07 <adler> I need to test the waters and see how close they are to investing in new infrastructure. If it's anytime soon, I would appreciate your insite into designing/marketing such a large installation (a bit larger than what I've managed so far).
18:11:31 <talli> sure, no prob. we can talk about it whenever you would like.
18:11:52 <talli> how many members do they currently have?
18:12:21 <adler> I'm going over there this week for the first time in several months. I'll size up where they are. 
18:12:29 <vinod> talli needs to start giving us marketing/business lessons
18:12:35 <talli> ha!
18:12:55 <talli> if you saw our revenue stream, you would head on over to some other IRC channel. or ban me.
18:13:07 <vinod> haha
18:13:38 <vinod> who cares about revenue - business 2.0 said it was all about hits and eyeballs and stuff
18:13:58 <adler> There are about 5k members. But there is considerable complexity in the sense that it is 'grassroots'. ever shopper is a member is a worker, so the tools end up getting used by many semi-trained personel.
18:14:24 <talli> ah. yes, well that's where roles and a good permissioning scheme comes in
18:15:21 <talli> when it comes time to discuss this stuff with them, the first move is to introduce the openacs idea. then, the very next thing you do is hand the Philip and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing
18:15:36 <adler> Plus, since everyone must work about 3 hours a month (saving huge costs of salaries), they willoften opt for brute force solutions, rather than elegant, machine oriented ones.
18:15:50 <talli> everybuddy that reads that book immediately wants to build an ACS system
18:15:55 <talli> everybody
18:16:02 <donb> donb has joined #openacs
18:16:16 <talli> then it's important to get the ear of one of the big fancies in the org
18:16:25 <talli> like the coops don baccus.
18:16:37 <talli> whoever that guy is
18:16:40 <adler> and then that become complex, because we have to convince a large number of member that this is good thing-- not just a CIO
18:16:45 <adler> hi don
18:17:00 <donb> Looks like I've arrived in the middle of something, what's up?
18:17:27 <talli> the complex and varied strategies of convincing a slow moving nonprofit to use openacs
18:17:37 <adler> precisely
18:17:40 <donb> Oh ...
18:18:06 <talli> adler: patience is an important thing in this. for small NPO projects, we know it usually takes a 2-4 month lead time
18:18:26 <talli> for larger projects that has not yet written or defined an RFP, it's much longer
18:18:46 <talli> so as you said, a 6 month time frame for them to start thinking about this is reasonable
18:18:52 <adler> My strategy remains incremental. I've promised some basic web apps. If I can find a place to host it, I'll implement with OACS and then slowly get them hooked.
18:19:09 <talli> i'll host it for you.
18:19:39 <talli> if you can squeeze a small amount of money out of them, you'd be really surprised at how much can be done in a couple of weeks
18:20:03 <talli> so you would be able to show them a nice demo that handles multiple roles, has bboards, some basic ETP templates and so on
18:20:10 <adler> that would be excellent. I would like them to pay you for it, but i'm not sure for how long they've prepaid other hosting providers.
18:20:41 <talli> that's cool. see how much they have and we can work around that
18:21:15 <talli> but the best way to do it is to do a little infiltration and figure out what pieces of the system they simply can't do
18:21:20 <adler> excellent. at the very least, we can stick a 'built with Museatech/OACS' sticker on there.
18:21:27 <talli> sounds fine by me
18:22:11 <talli> also, try and organize a group of members who can test the system and will have postive comments
18:22:21 <adler> supposing that they appreciate the site, they should ditch the old hosting provider and move all the static stuff over and at least pay you what they pay them.
18:22:42 <talli> so if you could get 15-20 members to log on to the system, post some content to the bboards, etc
18:22:57 <talli> what's the site's current URL?
18:23:02 <adler> I work on the 'web committee'. I think the OACS will solve some of the problems they are working on. 
18:23:36 <adler> Plus, i'm likely to pour many hours into to the site since it now provides an opportunity to be intimate with the OACS (something I've wished for quite some time)
18:23:51 <talli> hey now
18:23:55 <talli> don't get all vinod on us.
18:24:06 <adler> http://www.foodcoop.com
18:24:06 <chump> A: http://www.foodcoop.com from adler
18:24:11 <talli> participating is one thing. "intimate" is a whole other one :)
18:24:11 <adler> whoops
18:24:31 <adler> I'm just a passionate fella.
18:24:38 <adler> D
18:24:46 <adler> how do i describe that link? 
18:24:56 <talli> that's ok.
18:24:58 <talli> :)
18:25:22 <talli> AaronSw: Park Slope Food Coop
18:25:36 <adler> nice try.
18:25:43 <talli> weird, this peace and protection skin for my mIRC client screws with that
18:26:01 <adler> AaronSw: Park Slope Food Coop - for crunchy, organic, Brooklyn types
18:26:21 <talli> well, you're *suppsed* to take the letter and the colon of the link and write a comment after it
18:26:25 <talli> so A: something
18:26:34 <adler> ah
18:26:43 <adler> A: Park Slope Food Coop - for crunchy, organic, Brooklyn types
18:26:43 <chump> commented item A
18:26:47 <adler> done.
18:27:03 <adler> what's up with permissions scalability these days? 
18:27:13 <donb> Good question...
18:27:14 <talli> it seems that there is already some personalization functionality in there
18:27:49 <talli> scalability in general is a bit of a scary issue in OACS4
18:28:08 <talli> not because it's bad, but it seems that no one really knows
18:28:20 <talli> how has furfly's ACS4 sites been doing, don?
18:28:42 <adler> is this an issue of not yet testing on a large scale install?
18:29:11 <talli> more or less, from what i understand, yes
18:29:45 <talli> adler: what personalization stuff is foodcoop.com running now? it looks like cgi/perl stuff, yeah?
18:30:20 <donb> They're really not that busy.  NY Review gets plenty of traffic but doesn't make all that heavy use of ACS 4 other than the CMS with a custom UI.  Granta makes heavier use of ACS community features like bboard, but they don't get much traffic.  I don't think Granta's done much pushing of the site.  These literary types, you know ... for them the big deal was being able to use the CMS to generate content in London with editorial staff, rather than ship 
18:30:21 <talli> i like the URLs it generates, at least. they are at least 900 chars long :)
18:30:24 <donb> publish onsite.
18:30:30 <adler> i think there is some of that. I could implement the new stuff with cgis, but I'd much prefer digging into OACS
18:31:20 <talli> i am so proud that the pre-eminate lefty publication of the US runs ACS
18:31:33 <talli> any chance they'll ever switch to OACS and PG, don?
18:31:54 <donb> You talking about the NY Review of Books being ultra-lefty?
18:31:58 <talli> yeah
18:32:07 <adler> talli - are you talking about the classifieds?
18:32:09 <talli> well, not ultra-left
18:32:21 <talli> adler: yes
18:32:57 <adler> they were so happy to get access to free cgis. if only they knew about what was available.
18:33:03 <donb> I don't think they'll switch to PG at this point, they've paid for Oracle.  The tech guy in charge there was interested in PG but wanted the CMS and this was a year ago so ... no choice.
18:33:08 <talli> donb: i don't trust radical leftists that are still waiting for the revolution. i prefer the dumb chimp dubyah to the crazy spartacists
18:33:27 <talli> donb: how did you guys implement the CMS?
18:33:50 <adler> talli- when the revolution comes, we can no longer be friends 
18:34:25 <talli> adler: sorry comrade. by the time the revolution comes, i will already have converted to islam.
18:34:56 <donb> Janine did all the work.  I was busy first with CQMi (the members-only site for the Center for Quality of Management, a nice capitalistic counterbalence to NY Books) and then the SloanSpace stuff.
18:35:06 <donb> Another counterbalance, come to think of it.  
18:35:07 <adler> we all know you're doing it only for the polygamy
18:35:25 <talli> the polygamy and the couscous
18:35:46 <adler> i might be arabic for halloween.
18:36:00 <donb> CQM - a non-profit that helps its poor members (come to think of it, HP is rapidly becoming poor, I wonder if it's because of TQM?)
18:36:07 <talli> nice. maybe you should carry a box cutte too
18:36:37 <adler> TQM?
18:36:41 <talli> donb: CQM sounds like the same kind of nonprofit that Sloan and Harvard is
18:36:48 <donb> We had an quote-unquote anthrax scare about ten blocks away from me two nights ago ...
18:36:52 <talli> sloan and harvard are, sorry
18:37:05 <adler> don - you're out west, right?
18:37:09 <talli> donb: what happened?
18:37:29 <donb> TQM - Total Quality of Management - a management philosophy.
18:37:36 <donb> Yes, I'm out west...
18:38:38 <talli> donb: so you were a member of the famed spotted owl protest and action? nice. how did you guys pull it off?
18:38:52 <donb> Someone left a paper bag in a 7-11 parking lot boldly marked "ANTHRAX!".  I was driving up the boulevard and saw the police tape surrounding the parking lot, people milling around, etc.  I thought there must've been a murder/robbery on the store or something and was kind of bummed since it's not usual here.
18:39:10 <donb> one story at a time - anyway I found out the next day the paper bag had an empty six pack in it ...
18:39:28 <talli> mmm... anthrax beer.
18:39:33 <adler> gents- I must be going, but it's be horrendously fun while it lasted.
18:39:42 <donb> Yes, I was on the board of Portland Audubon at the time, proud to be the second largest chapter in the country and co-plaintiff (with Seattle Audubon) of the famous spotted owl suit.
18:40:08 <donb> I was disappointed that I never got any death threats.
18:40:28 <adler> donb - I am obliged to thank you for the work you're doing, since I've not yet done so.
18:40:46 <donb> Hey, thanks!  A lot of folks are doing good work here ...
18:40:46 <adler> talli- i'll be in touch re: PSFC
18:41:03 <adler> and you're not so useless yourself, talli
18:41:05 <talli> cool. drop me a line at my email
18:41:12 <talli> i am though!
18:41:17 <adler> we'll see abou that.
18:41:18 <talli> i can't even install PG!
18:41:29 <adler> * adler smacks forehead
18:41:34 <donb> Really, he is, he thought Redbones had better BBQ than Blue Ribbon ...
18:41:47 <vinod> mmm redbones...
18:41:58 <donb> Blue Ribbon, far superior...and cheaper.
18:42:12 <vinod> yeah, i like blue ribbon better, but the beer is better at redbones
18:42:22 <adler> enough salivating. I'm gone. See yall later.
18:42:25 <adler> adler has quit
18:42:37 <donb> Redbones is a far superior hangout, that's for sure ...
18:43:08 <talli> i never said that redbones had better bbq - just that i had never been to blue ribbon
18:43:21 <talli> now that i have had blue ribbon, i agree wholeheartedly
18:43:33 <donb> It's a good thing you do!
18:43:39 <talli> but redbones and beer....
18:43:50 <donb> We have a lot of great beer here in Portland ...
18:43:56 <vinod> i'll be back - off to lunch
18:43:59 <talli> * talli passes out from an ecstatic fantasy
18:44:18 <talli> yeah, that's why redbones is so cool - they have oregon beers
18:44:51 <talli> what's up with that anyway? have all the oregon hippies moved over to brewing good beer from growing good weed?
18:45:16 <donb> Well ... "moved over" isn't probably the right expression, "diversified" might be better ...
18:45:39 <talli> haha
18:46:25 <donb> Oregon was the first state to pass a modern microbrew law, i.e. lifted the prohibition against a brewery owning a pub and selling its beer directly (making small batch production more profitable).  Lifted that prohibition that dated from the lifting of Prohibition, speaking recursively (and accurately).
18:46:59 <talli> nice
18:47:01 <donb> The big brewers got that into the repeal of Prohibition ... small breweries were the norm early this century.
18:47:20 <talli> hmm.. i didn't know that. one more reason to hate Bud
18:47:45 <donb> It was two old hippies actually that got it passed.  They'd owned a pub called Produce Row (still around, near me) that carried tons of European beers and wanted to brew and sell their own.
18:48:03 <talli> killer!
18:48:35 <talli> good to know hippies can actually get off their asses and pull something off! of course, they may not have been stoners...
18:48:54 <talli> btw, remember when i told you about the mess at tufts with their janitors when i was a student there?
18:49:01 <donb> Now they own 20-30 pubs here in town, including two movie theaters.  One, the Bagdhad, is in my neighborhood.  Classic mid-30s ornate theatre that had gone broke.  They bought it, spent $300,000 restoring it, took out every other row and put in tables so you can eat, drink beer, and enjoy a second-run movie ...
18:49:03 <talli> they're pulling the same stunt again
18:49:10 <donb> Are they really?  Grrr ...
18:49:11 <talli> whoa
18:49:18 <talli> that is killer!
18:49:21 <talli> http://www.justiceforjanitors.org/campaign/fastfacts_tufts.cfm
18:49:21 <chump> B: http://www.justiceforjanitors.org/campaign/fastfacts_tufts.cfm from talli
18:50:08 <talli> note: SEIU has decided to not use OACS in favor of CFM because CFM provides "more rapid development" and allows "non-programmers" to build apps
18:50:15 <talli> another grr...
18:50:32 <donb> They also own what used to be the poor farm, in essence, and rent rooms, have a couple of restaurants, big fields for playing frisbee, etc etc.
18:50:58 <donb> Bummer about SEIU...they'll learn soon enough that this ain't true.  Who sold them that line?  The Taliban?
18:50:59 <talli> whoa, they sound cool! what are their names. ben and jerry? :)
18:51:58 <talli> the taliban prefer living in the past where they can revel in the beauty of ancient tools. so they usually advocate the use of COBOL and Pascal
18:52:04 <donb> The McMennamin brothers.  Ironically, their beer's not really that good.  Nor is their food.  But they do a lot of cool things.  They also own an old elementary school in town that has rooms you can rent to stay overnight (The Detention Room, etc).
18:52:25 <talli> i believe it was an oil consortium that convinced SEIU to use CFM after Java achieved no traction
18:52:33 <donb> Heh.
18:52:42 <donb> At least they didn't fall for ACS Java.
18:53:23 <donb> I need to get going pretty soon, I'm procrastinating instead of working
18:53:30 <talli> you too? :)
18:54:12 <donb> Yeah, I just filed 80 slides that I labelled a couple of days ago (there are 80 labels per page) and now I have to sort slides on my light table.
18:54:26 <talli> nice. bird slides?
18:54:40 <donb> Some.  Travel slides from cruising across Canada this summer, too.
18:54:59 <talli> cool
18:55:15 <talli> all right, i need to get some food and try to make some money
18:55:17 <talli> talk to you later.
18:55:22 <donb> Tedious, though ... I could never sell stock for a full-time living...
18:55:29 <donb> later, talli ... bye all.
18:55:32 <donb> donb has quit
18:55:38 <talli> talli has quit
19:16:03 <ola> ola has joined #openacs
19:16:29 <ola> hi
19:19:18 <davb> hi ola
19:21:11 <ola> so how's your secret "gig" coming along?
19:21:52 <davb> Not bad. I have to work some more on the graphics. 
19:26:23 <ola> cool. are you self taught when it comes to graphics or do you have a formal education?
19:26:33 <ola> * ola longs for his first customer to come along, *sigh*
19:26:56 <ola> I have my own site to work on in the meantime, I suppose...
19:28:22 <ola> * ola woners if his brother has finished the work on the content :-))
19:28:53 <ola> s/woners/wonders
19:32:21 <davb> heh
19:32:23 <davb> me too.
19:32:32 <davb> This guy isn't paying yet.
19:32:51 <davb> I took graphic design for 2 years. I learned a little.
19:33:23 <davb> I learned more actually doing stuff.
19:33:40 <ola> aha.
19:34:16 <davb> Right now I am using my skills to make the chest part of a Darth Vader costume :)
19:35:31 <ola> COOL!
19:35:50 <ola> can you make him speak too? :-)
19:36:32 <ola> or isn't this for the web?
19:36:40 <davb> Maybe. We have a toy that can do a kinda deep voice. Maybe if I take it apart.
19:36:48 <davb> No, this is for a real live person.
19:37:34 <ola> that's even more cool.
19:37:49 <ola> is Gimp any good in your opinion or shall I go with Photo Shop?
19:37:49 <davb> we'll see...I hope so.
19:38:39 <davb> Depends. For buttons and stuff, gimp is good. If you are willing to work with Script-Fu, its very good. Photoshop is better for photo editing. 
19:39:09 <davb> I use Macromedia Fireworks for web work though. If its a photo, i prepare it in Photoshop and finish with Fireworks.
19:40:53 <davb> ola: did you ever get the search package working?
19:41:20 <ola> yes, for notes, that is.
19:41:37 <ola> about a month ago..
19:41:55 <davb> hmm. I created the AOLserver module and its loading. I installed OpenFTS-driver from the APM, but its not showing up in the list of installed packages...
19:43:09 <ola> hmmm... have you visited the service-contract page?
19:43:59 <davb> yes. All the service-contracts are in there. According to Gilbert Wong's doc he wrote, you need to mount Openfts-driver in the site map. does that sound right?
19:48:46 <ola> well, it rings a bell. I think that was what I did.
19:49:10 <ola> but it isn't available, you say...
19:50:03 <davb> right. I did install new packages. It went through and said OpenFTS driver installed sucessfully. I restarted the server and its not there.
19:50:15 <davb> I will have to do more work to figure out what is happening.
19:52:06 <ola> you've probably read this...:http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0002er&topic_id=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Design&topic=12
19:56:20 <ola> I remenber that the ORDER in which you did things like mounting "stuff" and regitering the contracts mattered more than I at first realized...
19:56:55 <davb> ok. 
19:57:21 <davb> like "Search"?
19:59:22 <ola> I can't remember, the gory details. sorry! :-(
20:00:07 <davb> np
20:10:02 <k2pts> k2pts has joined #openacs
20:10:57 <k2pts> hi everybody
20:11:06 <davb> hi!
20:11:14 <k2pts> davb: have you had any success with the search package?
20:11:25 <ola> hi k2pts.
20:11:33 <k2pts> I was busy with stuff all day and I am reading the forums and the logs right now.
20:11:34 <k2pts> hi ola
20:12:26 <davb> heh, we were just discussing that.
20:12:38 <k2pts> yes I have read that (started reading from the end)
20:12:50 <davb> I got the nsfts aolserver module compiled and load.sql applied to my database.
20:13:04 <k2pts> ok, now you need to install openfts-driver
20:13:32 <davb> Right, I tried to install notes, serach and openfts-driver all at the same time. is this not the way?
20:13:49 <k2pts> np
20:14:02 <k2pts> search is a core package
20:14:21 <davb> because after I install openfts-driver, it does not appear in the APM list of installed packages.
20:15:37 <k2pts> let me check
20:15:51 <davb> BUT, the contracts are listed in acs-service-contract.
20:16:08 <davb> thanks
20:16:38 <k2pts> it's there under services
20:16:47 <davb> duh
20:17:08 <k2pts> ok, install the contracts and mount openfts-driver
20:17:12 <davb> wow, there's all kinds of stuff in there. I should pay more attention.
20:17:15 <davb> ok.
20:17:40 <davb> install the contracts first?
20:17:50 <k2pts> doesn't matter
20:17:59 <davb> ok
20:18:43 <k2pts> have you restarted aolserver since you installed openfts-driver?
20:19:15 <davb> Yes.
20:19:25 <k2pts> ok, let me know when you are done
20:19:26 <davb> Ok. I see what happened.
20:19:35 <davb> I created a subfolder
20:19:41 <davb> then looked under "new application"
20:19:43 <davb> its not there.
20:19:47 <k2pts> mount
20:19:48 <davb> its under mount->
20:20:06 <davb> "these are services and probably should not be mounted..."
20:20:09 <davb> Ok. so its there.
20:20:16 <k2pts> yes, go ahead
20:20:46 <davb> i installed all the contracts.
20:21:04 <k2pts> go to openfts-driver
20:21:08 <k2pts> admin
20:21:13 <k2pts> initialize engine
20:21:20 <k2pts> accept default settings
20:22:03 <k2pts> ack
20:22:27 <davb> good.
20:22:50 <k2pts> restart aolserver so that the contract bindings will take effect
20:22:54 <davb> Ok.
20:23:23 <davb> This is easy. Compiling the module was tricky. It didn't like any of my file locations.
20:24:45 <k2pts> you mean nsfts
20:24:46 <k2pts> ?
20:25:52 <davb> yes
20:26:10 <davb> hmmm. I got the same error.
20:26:18 <k2pts> what error?
20:26:48 <davb> invalid command name "Search::OpenFTS::Index::init"
20:26:48 <davb>     while executing
20:26:48 <davb> "Search::OpenFTS::Index::init opt"
20:26:48 <davb>     invoked from within
20:26:48 <davb> "array set idx [Search::OpenFTS::Index::init opt]"
20:26:49 <davb>     ("uplevel" body line 35)
20:26:50 <davb>     invoked from within
20:26:52 <davb> "uplevel {
20:26:54 <davb>     	  ad_page_contract {
20:26:58 <k2pts> ok
20:27:22 <k2pts> post the directory where the source code of openfts is
20:28:13 <davb> mine? tmp/Search-OpenFTS-tcl-0.2/aolserver
20:28:49 <k2pts> ok, goto the parameters of openfts-driver and change the default to /tmp/Search-OpenFTS-tcl-0.2/
20:29:08 <davb> ok.
20:29:22 <k2pts> it would be easier if you had followed the guidelines in www/doc/INSTALL
20:30:32 <davb> heh. I am not the best at reading instructions. I am impatient. :)
20:30:45 <k2pts> aren't we all? when you are done, restart aolserver.
20:31:11 <davb> right.
20:31:12 <k2pts> upon restart the openfts-driver will source tcl libraries from /tmp/Search-OpenFTS-tcl-0.2/
20:32:16 <davb> Aha. I didn't know it was looking for that. Is that a good idea to require the source to stick around? For example. I compile and install everything on a development server. Then move the site over to production, but I don't copy /usr/local/src directory...
20:32:31 <davb> Great! it works!
20:32:52 <k2pts> you mean the initialization, right?
20:33:51 <k2pts> davb???
20:34:47 <k2pts> davb wrote: Is that a good idea?
20:35:36 <k2pts> you can always copy the openfts tcl libraries into openfts-driver/tcl but I thought that this is the best way to update to newer versions of openfts
20:36:01 <davb> Right
20:36:09 <davb> Ok. I will just have to read the instructions.
20:36:14 <davb> Thanks for putting up with me!
20:36:19 <k2pts> np
20:36:47 <k2pts> to index/search notes: install notes, make new application node, and then add some notes
20:37:08 <k2pts> in 30 seconds they will be indexed and you should be able to search
20:37:19 <davb> Cool
20:38:04 <k2pts> let us know if you succeed
20:38:12 <ola> we will have a choice to store pages in the db OR in the file system with static-pages, right?
20:38:19 <k2pts> right
20:38:31 <k2pts> actually, you can try that right now with cms
20:38:36 <ola> am I going to be able to search my pages with OpenFTS if I choose "file system storage" for my pages?
20:38:49 <ola> ok. cool.
20:39:07 <k2pts> first, try the notes package
20:39:14 <k2pts> and then we will try with cms
20:39:18 <k2pts> it should work with both
20:39:58 <k2pts> ola wrote:we will have a choice to store pages in the db OR in the file system with static-pages, right?
20:40:03 <k2pts> right, or lob
20:40:18 <davb> ola: no.
20:40:54 <k2pts> the search package supports all three given that the other package (e.g. static-pages) support that
20:40:59 <davb> ola: no you can't choose for static-pages. Yes they are searchable. or will be.
20:41:21 <k2pts> davb: right
20:41:51 <k2pts> ola: you can try all three (filesystem,db,lob) using cms and creating cr_revisions.
20:42:34 <k2pts> the next release cycle will include stuff like indexing pdf and other format files (given the right converter)
20:42:35 <ola> k2pts: ok, good.
20:42:46 <davb> I think I did something silly with static-pages.
20:42:53 <k2pts> what's that?
20:43:01 <davb> THe old version kept a copy in the db and served content from there. 
20:43:08 <davb> So it compared the db copy with the file copy.
20:43:32 <davb> Now what it does is retrieve the db copy from the filesystem and compare it with itself.
20:43:56 <k2pts> ok
20:44:12 <k2pts> have you tried the search package with notes?
20:44:13 <davb> We might need to store the text in the db to compare to see when a file changes so it can be reindexed.
20:44:18 <davb> Almost there.
20:44:38 <k2pts> davb: right
20:45:07 <talli> talli has joined #openacs
20:45:13 <k2pts> on a second thought, almost right
20:45:23 <k2pts> there are ways to go around that
20:45:30 <k2pts> but let us know worry about it right now
20:45:31 <k2pts> hi talli
20:45:37 <talli> hey
20:45:42 <k2pts> s/know/not
20:45:55 <davb> ok, i have no problem with that :)
20:46:13 <k2pts> ok waiting for the notes test results
20:46:31 <ola> hey talli
20:46:35 <davb> uhoh
20:46:36 <davb> Database operation "0or1row" failed (exception NSDB, "Query was not a statement returning rows.")
20:46:36 <davb>     while executing
20:46:36 <davb> "ns_pg_bind 0or1row nsdb0 {
20:46:36 <davb>         select count(*)
20:46:36 <davb>         from txt
20:46:37 <davb>         where 
20:46:39 <davb>             
20:46:42 <davb>             (  txt.fts_index @ '{2539164}' )
20:46:49 <davb> when I type a serach term and hit search i am getting that.
20:47:29 <k2pts> have you added "ns_param   nsfts           ${bindir}/nsfts.so" to nsd.tcl
20:48:19 <k2pts> correction: check that the directories in load.sql correspond to your installation
20:48:31 <k2pts> s/directories/paths
20:48:59 <davb> Ok.
20:49:10 <davb> It said CREATE CREATE when I ran it. I had to fix them.
20:49:11 <k2pts> davb: can I have your attention for a while? a few questions
20:49:25 <davb> and yes the nsfts.so is loading.
20:49:28 <davb> k2pts: Sure.
20:49:39 <k2pts> did you do "gmake install-all-headers"
20:50:08 <davb> For postgresql? No I cheated. I am using Debian. I am the Debian pain in the ass tester :)
20:50:28 <davb> I installed the postgresql-dev package. Which is the headers.
20:50:53 <k2pts> don't know I always compile. gmake install-all-headers is needed in order to compile the intarray module under the postgresql contrib directory
20:51:18 <k2pts> the message you get shows that the intarray package was not compiled correctly
20:51:54 <davb> Right. I also installed postgresql-contrib. 
20:52:01 <davb> Aha, but I stupidly did not compile it.
20:52:02 <k2pts> @ is the "contains" operator for arrays of integers
20:52:19 <k2pts> ok try do it now
20:53:22 <davb> aha. I am missing something to compile it....
20:53:38 <k2pts> what's that
20:54:01 <k2pts> probably spi.h (which is installed when you do gmake install-all-headers)
20:54:17 <davb> Database operation "0or1row" failed (exception NSDB, "Query was not a statement returning rows.")
20:54:17 <davb>     while executing
20:54:17 <davb> "ns_pg_bind 0or1row nsdb0 {
20:54:17 <davb>         select count(*)
20:54:17 <davb>         from txt
20:54:18 <davb>         where 
20:54:20 <davb>             
20:54:22 <davb>             (  txt.fts_index @ '{2539164}' )
20:54:26 <davb> oops
20:54:28 <davb> include $(top_builddir)/src/Makefile.global
20:54:30 <davb> is missing.
20:54:38 <davb> because I don;t have the postgresql src. :)
20:54:55 <k2pts> well, you will need that to compile intarray
20:55:18 <davb> yes. THis is fun. I can help GEM and rbm install search on their debian systems
20:56:03 <k2pts> personally, I like to download the postgresql tarball and then just compile what I need
20:56:19 <davb> Right. 
20:56:23 <davb> I think that is a good idea.
20:56:59 <davb> looks like I have to do that. There does not seem to be a source package for debian.
20:59:34 <k2pts> ok, everything will work ok when you get the intarray stuff compile. you will probably need to reload load.sql and you might need to drop the things you created earlier (when you run load.sql)
20:59:49 <davb> thanks alot.
21:01:39 <k2pts> let me know when you are ready. I will be available for a bit longer tonight (midnight here in Cyprus), otherwise we will have to continue tomorrow. However, you only need my help if you need to drop stuff that you created earlier with load.sql (without intarray compiled).
21:02:05 <davb> Thanks. Don't worry about me. Now that I know what I need to do, I will figure itout.
21:03:02 <k2pts> you can always try on a fresh oacs installation. follow the www/doc/INSTALL guidelines and it will be ok. most of the things are already there so you won't have to replicate effort (like compiling nsfts etc)
21:03:37 <k2pts> here are the steps now that you have compiled nsfts and running:
21:03:37 <davb> right. I will probably do that. I am an expert at reloading the datamodel.
21:03:43 <k2pts> :)
21:03:49 <k2pts> a. gmake install-all-headers
21:03:50 <k2pts> b.
21:03:54 <k2pts> b. install intarray
21:04:16 <k2pts> c. the steps we did together to install openfts-driver and the contracts
21:05:04 <k2pts> d. change the parameter (if you insist on /tmp/Search-OpenFTS-tcl-0.2/)
21:05:16 <davb> heh I moved it :)
21:05:29 <k2pts> e. try to search some notes
21:05:45 <k2pts> f. try to create some cr_revisions and then search for them.
21:05:59 <k2pts> that's it
21:06:10 <davb> Great.
21:06:33 <k2pts> I like to demonstrate stemming to my friends. they think it's cool
21:06:56 <k2pts> create a note with body "this is a test" and then search for "testing"
21:07:00 <davb> You have interesting friends. 
21:07:04 <davb> Cool.
21:07:06 <davb> :)
21:07:24 <ola> Does this mean that ETP is also searchable?
21:07:27 <k2pts> create a note with body "play football" and then search for "playing"
21:07:37 <k2pts> ola: give me a sec
21:07:53 <k2pts> you can also try rankings
21:08:26 <k2pts> create two notes one that includes the word "hello world" in the title and one that has it in the body
21:08:37 <k2pts> search for world. the former will appear first
21:09:41 <k2pts> also to test proximity (how close the search keywords are),
21:10:59 <k2pts> create a note with body "full text search" and body "full davb text search". then search for the words "full" and "search". the former will appear first
21:11:03 <ola> k2pts: hey, this package beats PLS and interMedia!:-)
21:11:09 <k2pts> :)
21:11:11 <k2pts> thanx
21:11:28 <k2pts> this is mostly due to the efforts of Oleg and Teodor
21:12:06 <ola> nah, don't be so modest.;-)
21:12:36 <k2pts> forgot Dan. Dan did an excellent job porting openfts to tcl
21:12:51 <donb> donb has joined #openacs
21:12:57 <k2pts> hi Don
21:13:07 <donb> Hey there ...
21:13:08 <ola> hi donb
21:13:21 <k2pts> almost done with acs-workflow
21:13:52 <donb> talli ... I've been poking around bboard ... I think it can be sped up a lot, especially for Postgres (Oracle may optimize some of the uses of views I'm seeing, but may not)
21:14:06 <donb> Neophytos - I would, sure.
21:14:15 <k2pts> ok give me a sec
21:14:21 <talli> donb: yeah, i saw your post
21:14:38 <donb> I just made another, you saw that one already?
21:15:05 <talli> i was going to write something yesterday about how In Don I Trust and i hpoe that i am always on your side
21:15:31 <talli> i liked how you offered one sql query in one post and seconds later offered another
21:15:37 <donb> Not necessarily true for Oracle, though I did figure out why those "foo in (select bar from ...)" queries can run fast.
21:15:40 <talli> so yes, i saw all that stuff, adn thanks
21:15:58 <talli> is it bad hacking on aD's part or something that is just peculiar to PG?
21:16:51 <ola> donb: do you know you can't browse other packages than acs-* in the code repository? 
21:17:55 <docwolf> docwolf has joined #openacs
21:18:05 <docwolf> hi everybody
21:18:07 <k2pts> hi docwolf
21:18:11 <davb> hi docwolf
21:18:28 <docwolf> hey, is don around?
21:18:38 <ola> donb: also, how come some packages cannot be "checked-out" but must be "updated"?
21:18:48 <talli> yo doc
21:19:22 <donb> Well ... the views I'm concerned with in bboard are used in queries that can only run fast if Oracle's smart about views.   Several of the queries that use the views in essence throw away parts of the views that are expensive to compute.  If Oracle figures out that it can simply not do the computation the queries are OK.
21:19:25 <ola> donb: mp3-jukebox, for instance... 
21:19:30 <donb> But I bet it's not, for instance...
21:19:37 <donb> OK ... one thing at a time...
21:20:25 <donb> Neophytos: That looks nice.  I haven't gotten graphiz to install on my workstation (missing stuff) so haven't seen the existing UI so don't know how much better this is.  DanW did say he liked the existing graphical output though ...
21:20:49 <k2pts> i think it's been improved
21:20:51 <k2pts> a lot
21:21:09 <k2pts> also noticed the roles instead of static assignments?
21:21:22 <donb> Ola: It's because I haven't declared them modules in CVS and you can only check out modules.  I should do that.  I'd forgotten about this over the last few months...
21:23:15 <ola> donb: aha, I see.
21:23:21 <donb> ND: It is nice ... the HTML display's not bad, either.  Will the HTML display work now if you don't have graphiz installed?  I thought it was kinda dumb to have that dependency ...
21:23:22 <chump> Label ND not found.
21:23:44 <k2pts> haven't check. I 
21:23:46 <donb> What's this "chump" thing ...
21:23:58 <k2pts> it's the logger
21:24:04 <donb> Ahhhh....
21:24:10 <davb> Chump records every line that starts with http://
21:24:15 <davb> loggy records everything.
21:25:22 <docwolf> hey don..
21:25:28 <donb> Yeah?
21:25:29 <docwolf> funny coincidence..
21:25:38 <docwolf> i live in the land of anthrax, boca raton, fla.
21:25:56 <docwolf> we have a university here whose mascot is The Owl
21:26:00 <docwolf> they are using your photographs.
21:26:15 <docwolf> i was amused to see it when i was surfing their site.
21:26:26 <docwolf> donb is everywhere...
21:26:55 <docwolf> http://www.fau.edu/admin/admin.htm
21:26:55 <chump> C: http://www.fau.edu/admin/admin.htm from docwolf
21:26:58 <donb> Yeah ... they asked me if they could use them oh about three years ago.  They have burrowing owls on campus so wanted some burrowing owl shots.  The people working on the website were really nice folks .
21:27:34 <docwolf> it's a fairly laid-back, anonymous institution.
21:28:02 <donb> The same photo is on Warner Brothers official Harry Potter website.  They *didn't* ask and they *don't* have my permission to use them and I'm rather pissed.
21:28:07 <docwolf> !!!
21:28:11 <docwolf> i smell lawsuit :-)
21:28:13 <davb> Wow.
21:28:22 <ola> http://www.infogettable.net/bg/
21:28:22 <chump> D: http://www.infogettable.net/bg/ from ola
21:28:27 <ola> D:|Free OpenACS 3.2.5 based Backgammon for the people
21:28:27 <chump> titled item D
21:28:33 <ola> :-)
21:29:18 <donb> Yes indeed.  Actually ... I look at it as a sales opportunity.  They already made a reasonable offer to one of the other photographers, but he does want to sue (vengence!).  Of course, it's not WB's fault as it is the design firm that's 'fessed up to the deed.
21:30:00 <donb> But it is funny given the fact that WB's part of RIAA and we all know how they feel about DeCSS, napster, etc etc.
21:30:09 <docwolf> haha
21:30:14 <docwolf> give 'em hell!
21:30:16 <talli> donb: given that WB sent very intimidating letters to every child who had a harry potter fan site, i think you should threaten them with everything you have,
21:30:25 <talli> which is, uh, considerable?
21:30:32 <donb> Did WB do that?  I didn't know that.
21:30:37 <k2pts> ola: nice site
21:31:04 <donb> I've thought about submitting it to slashdot but I'm not sure they'd pick up on the DMCA irony.
21:31:06 <ola> k2pts: thanks.
21:31:16 <docwolf> slashdot may be your most cost-effective avenue
21:32:18 <talli> that would be cool
21:32:18 <donb> Ola - that's a nice looking site, did you do the board graphics?
21:33:48 <ola> donb: yes. it took some time but it loads faster than GIF segments.
21:34:00 <k2pts> ola: you should try chess next. you might also come up with a general game package
21:34:07 <donb> Suing WB's not attractive because the copyright's not registered.  I could get actual damages (i.e. market value for the sale) but not lawyer's fees or punative (3x) damages.
21:34:37 <donb> A general game package with presentation handled by the template engine.  Now, that would be ambitious!
21:34:48 <k2pts> ola: monitoring ratings, game status, etc
21:35:50 <donb> use service contract to connect to game-specific layout engines, rule checkers, etc...
21:35:58 <k2pts> exactly
21:35:59 <ola> heh
21:36:08 <donb> That would keep you busy for awhile ...
21:36:36 <ola> k2pts: if you register you'll see some of that;-)
21:36:47 <k2pts> ok, heading there now
21:38:35 <ola> k2pts: pick me in the player pool!
21:38:36 <talli> donb: one of the aD prize winners, heather something, was the girl that brought WB to their knees for taking down the harry potter fan sites
21:38:54 <talli> she actually won her prize for her harrry potter site, i think
21:39:13 <donb> Well ... I'm going to head off in a minute to finish up porting the glossary package.  It's lame as it stands (as Walter says in the alpha release notes he wrote for aD).   I'm starting to understand aD alpha releases - "25% complete"
21:39:39 <donb> Ahhh ... I should e-mail her, she'd be humored by this.
21:39:51 <donb> Sure ...
21:39:58 <talli> i'm sure she would be
21:40:21 <talli> i laughed when i heard that, because she's also the girl who is taking on aD to get that server back
21:40:25 <talli> poor, poor aD
21:40:29 <talli> don't fuck with harry potter
21:40:31 <docwolf> haha
21:41:52 <donb> ?
21:42:55 <donb> neophytos: I don't know how to post back in private, though this might've done it?
21:43:09 <donb> k2pts: I mean this ...
21:43:26 <k2pts> pick my nick and then choose dialog
21:43:36 <k2pts> which irc client are you using
21:43:39 <donb> epic
21:44:11 <k2pts> nevermind, i'll email you
21:45:02 <donb> OK ... that's fine.  I might not get back to you until Monday though as we're going to spend tomorrow at a friends ...
21:45:34 <vinod> donb: to send a private msg it's: /msg k2pts this msg is private
21:47:52 <k2pts> talli: I accepted but it failed
21:48:04 <talli> yeah, don't worry about it
21:48:08 <talli> i was playing with my client
21:48:15 <k2pts> np
21:48:22 <talli> at your expense ;)
21:57:14 <donb> cd /msg k2pts cms, cms-news-demo, glossary, ticket tracker, wf-ticket-tracker (which can be ignored)
21:57:57 <talli> whoa
21:57:59 <talli> http://www.aolserver.com/
21:57:59 <chump> E: http://www.aolserver.com/ from talli
21:58:08 <talli> E: AOLserver.com redesign
21:58:09 <chump> commented item E
21:58:27 <talli> E: actually looks like you can find documentation and stuff
21:58:27 <chump> commented item E
21:58:37 <donb> That's old news, dude ...
21:59:24 <talli> how old?
21:59:33 <talli> i go there once a week or so
21:59:40 <davb> If the chump was searchable I would show you :)
21:59:41 <talli> or maybe not
21:59:46 <talli> ah, ok
22:00:13 <k2pts> davb: stop kidding around and compile pgsql :)
22:00:21 <talli> E: talli apologizes, however, for adding a link to chump which already exists. as donb said, "that's old news dude..."
22:00:22 <chump> commented item E
22:00:55 <davb> Its done. I am reinstalling OpenACS. 
22:00:58 <donb> Oh right Dave needs intarray ...
22:01:17 <davb> Among other things. I think I screwed up EVERY step of the install :)
22:01:48 <k2pts> lol
22:01:55 <k2pts> :)
22:02:12 <davb> But I learned alot.
22:02:55 <donb> Don't feel bad I had to get Janine Sisk to help me figure out why my Intermedia install didn't make OpenACS happy ...
22:03:01 <k2pts> pcychephylax should teach me how to give cookies (the asterisk post)
22:03:03 <ola> E: yeah! fish n' chips paper by now!
22:03:03 <chump> commented item E
22:03:28 <donb> She had to log into my laptop from NH...
22:04:45 <donb> Well folks I need to go off, get some coffee, and finish up the glossary package.
22:04:46 <davb> We definitely need to go through the default OpenACS admin pages and read all the instructions to make sure they are correct and make sense.
22:05:20 <donb> Yeah ... I'm still waiting for Roberto to get our XML docs compiling before worrying about changing them.
22:05:41 <donb> OK bye folks!
22:05:43 <donb> donb has quit
22:10:37 <k2pts> I am leaving too guys.
22:10:47 <k2pts> davb: we can continue tomorrow
22:10:51 <davb> thanks. goodnight
22:10:56 <k2pts> bye
22:10:58 <k2pts> k2pts has left #openacs
22:11:41 <talli> talli has quit
22:24:25 <ola> ola has quit
22:29:25 <vinod> vinod has quit
23:10:35 <davb> davb has quit
23:19:00 <Spork> * Spork is about to watch office space
23:19:04 <rbm> :)
23:19:22 <Spork> hahaha
23:19:25 <Spork> I love the intro
23:19:30 <Spork> Almost like my daily commute
23:20:33 <rbm> Watch the beloved office printer
23:33:40 <Spork> All you gotta do is just replace Inatech with Cablevision and you have my life