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14:40:08 <sagan.openprojects.net> topic is: All hell breaks loose, Microsoft releases XP! Will this impact OpenACS? We shall wait and see.
14:40:08 <sagan.openprojects.net> Users on #openacs: loggy talli davb GEM ola abbaJ hazmat andrew rbm_ AaronSw 
14:40:09 <ChanServ> This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
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14:56:22 <talli> davb, where do you work?
15:05:45 <talli> davb: when you have a moment, do you mind elaborating on your post to the openacs.musea feedback forum? my graphic designer doesn't quite understand what you mean
15:06:15 <davb> ok.
15:06:26 <talli> thanks
15:09:56 <davb> Talli: it looks OK in Mozilla.
15:11:04 <talli> did you buy opera?
15:13:52 <davb> Nope. I am cheap. The ads aren't that annoying. I am switching to Mozilla anyway. 0.9.5 rocks.
15:15:05 <davb> Although I feel bad because Opera is a good browser and they can use the money.
15:15:26 <talli> has mozilla gotten it's s**t together finally? 
15:17:12 <davb> I think so. It is fast enough to use all the time. And it has optional tabbed windows that work correctly with popup windows. I haven't tried out the mail though. It is quite a bit better than 0.9.3.
15:17:32 <talli> cool. thanks. good to know.
15:17:50 <talli> i tried to use it on my windows box and it never even booted up (mozilla, that is)
15:17:55 <davb> Before on some long pages with a huge table it would take minutes to render. Now it starts drawing right away.
15:18:29 <davb> Anyway, make sure you test openacs.museatech.net on Netscape 4, there are alot of holdouts.
15:18:57 <talli> ok, thanks
15:19:03 <talli> 4.X, you mean?
15:20:20 <davb> yes.
15:20:43 <talli> yeah, i think we are testing it on that. at least logan, our ass kicking graphic designer and HTML monkey, does
15:20:49 <talli> she's pretty thorough
15:22:23 <davb> Cool. Yeah, I like all the designs I have seen from museatech.
15:23:31 <davb> Does she use windows or a Mac?
15:24:09 <talli> for design, she uses mac. but for testing she uses both.
15:25:01 <ola> ola has joined #openacs
15:25:06 <davb> right. 
15:25:09 <davb> Hey ola!
15:25:13 <ola> hi
15:25:28 <talli> hey ola
15:25:58 <ola> hi talli
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15:50:05 <ola> silence, at last!!
15:50:16 <ola> I just moved my "server farm" to one of my closets...
15:50:28 <ola> (I thought that would be nicer than having it below the kitchen table) 
15:52:08 <davb> heh
15:52:24 <davb> Make sure you have decent ventelation in there.
15:53:18 <davb> davb has changed the topic to: OpenACS | Free Web Toolkit | http://openacs.org
15:54:47 <ola> yeah. good point, dave.
15:56:54 <davb> Depends on what type of systems you have in there of course.
15:57:45 <davb> I keep mine in the garage.
16:04:39 <ola> a garage is probably a better ventilated place. the closet I have is about 20 square feet and I have two boxes, one monitor and an ups in there (plus the cable modem). I guess I'd better watch the temperature the coming hours..
16:06:43 <davb> Its probably fine. :)
16:07:24 <Spork> Spork has joined #openacs
16:07:29 <Spork> morning
16:07:34 <davb> Howdy.
16:07:36 <ola> hi Spork
16:08:05 <Spork> Hi ola Hola dave
16:08:18 <Spork> * Spork patiently waits for his domain to update
16:08:52 <davb> That is the main reason I have my sites on DSL. Static IP.
16:09:19 <Spork> Eh
16:09:20 <ola> yeah, static IP rules.
16:09:22 <Spork> it's no big deal
16:09:33 <Spork> my ip gets bumped once every 5-6 months
16:09:35 <davb> Does your cable company offer static IPs? Roadrunner doesn;t until you get to the $300/month business pacakge. Which is comparable to 1.1mb SDSL with 8 static ips.
16:09:35 <Spork> I can live with that
16:09:49 <Spork> No it doesn't, even with business cable
16:09:57 <Spork> Maybe soon though
16:10:01 <davb> That sucks.
16:10:21 <davb> oh well.
16:10:23 <Spork> Eh
16:10:27 <Spork> I won't cry about it
16:10:40 <vinod> vinod has joined #openacs
16:10:48 <ola> hi vinod!
16:10:52 <Spork> hey vinod 
16:11:01 <Spork> dave
16:11:02 <davb> Howdy vinod
16:11:03 <vinod> howdy!
16:11:09 <Spork> you still have that ip address I pasted in this morning?
16:11:19 <davb> I don't remember seeing one...
16:11:21 <Spork> maybe in the history of the browser
16:11:33 <Spork> Sure you do, this morning when I pasted it in 
16:11:40 <Spork> Bah
16:11:44 <Spork> where's the log
16:12:01 <davb> Yeah. 
16:12:03 <davb> I found it.
16:12:27 <davb> the 1300k/s one?
16:12:59 <Spork> yeah
16:13:02 <Spork> no
16:13:05 <Spork> the other one
16:13:09 <Spork> 24.xxxxx
16:13:28 <Spork> loggy wasn't here :(
16:13:44 <Spork> Dave, look in the history for "neverhere" or 24.x
16:14:10 <davb> I don't see it.
16:14:27 <Spork> 24.187 maybe
16:14:40 <davb> Nope. Sure you sent it?
16:14:44 <Spork> yes!
16:14:49 <davb> today?
16:14:51 <Spork> It was before the screen shot
16:14:53 <Spork> yes today
16:14:55 <davb> hmmm
16:15:05 <Spork> I asked you if this worked and pasted in www.neverhere.com
16:15:09 <Spork> then you said "nope" 
16:15:14 <Spork> Then you asked "Did your ip change"
16:15:17 <Spork> I said "maybe"
16:15:21 <Spork> I looked it up and pasted in the ip
16:15:34 <Spork> * Spork wonders what dave has been drinking of recent times
16:16:14 <davb> heh: check it out you didn't paste it in my window:
16:16:15 <davb> <Psychephylax> Morning dave
16:16:15 <davb> <davb> Hi. Interesting topic.
16:16:15 <davb> <Psychephylax> I juuust set it
16:16:15 <davb> <Psychephylax> i'm mad about my IP changing
16:16:15 <davb> <ola> hi davb.
16:16:17 <davb> <davb> Again?
16:16:19 <davb> <davb> Wow. I always have the same one.
16:16:21 <davb> <davb> Time for dynamicDNS
16:16:23 <davb> <Psychephylax> yeah oddly enough
16:16:25 <davb> <Psychephylax> Mine usually never changes
16:16:27 <davb> <Psychephylax> awwww crud
16:16:37 <Spork> OH!
16:16:44 <Spork> Damn you! You joined after I said it
16:16:44 <Spork> lol
16:16:48 <davb> heh
16:16:55 <Spork> ok now I have to remember who I was talking to
16:16:58 <Spork> I think it was ola 
16:17:07 <Spork> ola did I converse with you this morning about my ip changing?
16:17:19 <Spork> or maybe it was roberto
16:17:23 <Spork> oh crud I can't remember
16:18:43 <ola> Spork, it was I, but I don't have it anymore.
16:18:53 <vinod> Quote:  Love it or fear it, Gates says, Microsoft's Windows is ``the most important tool that's ever been created.''
16:19:15 <Spork> Ahahahahahaha
16:19:16 <Spork> No
16:19:20 <Spork> Bill Gates is wrong
16:19:26 <talli> what about the wheel?
16:19:34 <Spork> I am the most important tool that was ever created!
16:19:37 <talli> is it more important than the wheel?
16:19:43 <vinod> i dunno - i'm think about gettin me one of these Windows things
16:19:49 <vinod> talli: that's what master bill says
16:19:57 <talli> i guess it's true.
16:19:59 <Spork> How else could you have the pointiness of a fork yet the convenience of eating soup with a spoon like utensil
16:20:02 <talli> damn.
16:20:22 <vinod> can you say 'Inflated Self Importance'?
16:20:31 <vinod> not you Spork - gates :-)
16:20:44 <Spork> Hey! I am important
16:20:46 <vinod> well, maybe you too
16:20:49 <vinod> :-)
16:20:56 <Spork> * Spork gets pointier
16:21:25 <Spork> 20 minutes for domain name update
16:22:35 <vinod> i think i'm sorry i brought this topic up
16:22:40 <Spork> lol
16:22:50 <ola> spork: here it is! 
16:22:52 <ola> 24.186.169.143
16:22:56 <Spork> thank you!
16:23:20 <ola> you're welcome.
16:23:36 <davb> check it out:
16:23:36 <davb> http://www.livingwithoutmicrosoft.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index
16:23:48 <davb> crap. chump is gone too.
16:23:49 <davb> brb
16:24:07 <chump> chump has joined #openacs
16:24:55 <davb>  http://www.livingwithoutmicrosoft.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index
16:24:59 <davb> http://www.livingwithoutmicrosoft.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index
16:24:59 <chump> A: http://www.livingwithoutmicrosoft.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index from davb
16:25:09 <davb> A:|Living without Micro$oft
16:25:10 <chump> titled item A
16:25:47 <davb> A: A serious site compiling alternatives to MS products
16:25:47 <chump> commented item A
16:26:00 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax has joined #openacs
16:26:05 <Psychephylax> have no fear
16:26:12 <Psychephylax> Spork's less demented personality is here
16:27:08 <Psychephylax> I have to go hand in my homework
16:27:12 <Psychephylax> be back later
16:27:14 <Psychephylax> I hope
16:27:18 <Spork> Spork has quit
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16:27:28 <Spork> * Spork detaches
16:27:48 <rbm_> rbm_ is now known as rbm
16:27:58 <davb> Ok vinod: I need a couple of new applicaitons for a site I am working on.
16:28:37 <davb> I need a job/resume service. and a marketplace. I think both of them can be built on a generic buy/sell kind of thing. Is there anything in 4 that can do it?
16:28:43 <davb> :)
16:29:01 <vinod> hmmm.... 
16:29:16 <vinod> did the classified-ad system ever make it to 4.x
16:30:00 <davb> Its not in the openacs tree. I'll have to check the ACS repository.
16:31:28 <davb> nope.
16:31:31 <davb> darn.
16:32:58 <vinod> the classifieds.sql datamodel from 3.2.5 doesn't look *too* hairy (famous last words)
16:33:18 <davb> Heh. OK. I'll expect it in a week. You heard him rbm, right?
16:33:49 <davb> :) :)
16:34:11 <vinod> doh - gotta learn not to talk in this channel
16:34:13 <vinod> :-)
16:34:43 <davb> yeah!
16:34:43 <davb> http://www.smartdisk.com/Downloads/Software/FlashPath_for_Linux.htm
16:34:44 <chump> B: http://www.smartdisk.com/Downloads/Software/FlashPath_for_Linux.htm from davb
16:34:55 <davb> B:|Flashpath driver for Linux
16:34:55 <chump> titled item B
16:36:34 <davb> B: its source code! Cool.
16:36:34 <chump> commented item B
16:40:22 <davb> B: don't see a license anywhere though.
16:40:22 <chump> commented item B
16:43:02 <rbm> heheh
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16:49:46 <asimov.openprojects.net> topic is: OpenACS | Free Web Toolkit | http://openacs.org
16:49:46 <asimov.openprojects.net> Users on #openacs: loggy GEM Spork chump vinod talli til davb hazmat AaronSw 
16:49:47 <ChanServ> This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
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16:56:50 <davb> Does anyone find this ironic: Disney Monopoly game...
17:05:13 <ola> yeah. Monopoly is not a game - it's deadly serious...
17:05:58 <davb> I wonder when the MS edition will come out.
17:06:15 <talli> hey kapil, you here?
17:06:25 <talli> hazmat: you here?
17:06:26 <davb> The name will be changed to Innovation, but it will play the same.
17:07:34 <ola> right. MS could use *something* innovative.
17:12:50 <dwm> dwm has joined #openacs
17:13:24 <dwm> greetings
17:14:12 <ola> hi dwm.
17:14:29 <davb> hi dwm
17:16:50 <dwm> just tooling around with the alpha release
17:17:14 <dwm> i get an error when I try to finalize a simple workflow
17:17:50 <dwm> Can't execute graphviz binary at /usr/local/bin/dot
17:17:51 <dwm>     while executing
17:17:51 <dwm> "wf_graphviz_dot_exec -to_file -output gif $dot_text"
17:17:51 <dwm>     invoked from within
17:17:51 <dwm> "set tmpfile [wf_graphviz_dot_exec -to_file -output gif $dot_text]"
17:19:35 <vinod> hi dwm!
17:19:47 <vinod> we need to document that better (I think DanW is working on that)
17:20:01 <vinod> you need a piece of software called graphviz to draw the workflow maps
17:20:05 <vinod> it's available here:
17:20:15 <vinod> http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools/graphviz/download.html
17:20:16 <chump> C: http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools/graphviz/download.html from vinod
17:21:01 <vinod> i think DanW is working on making that an install-time parameter, so if you don't have it installed, it won't bomb out
17:21:34 <vinod> C:| graphviz tool for pretty workflow maps
17:21:34 <chump> titled item C
17:21:38 <dwm> thanks vinod
17:21:49 <vinod> C: on debian: apt-get install graphviz
17:21:50 <chump> commented item C
17:22:01 <vinod> dwm: sure
17:23:02 <dwm> looks like some snazzy software
17:23:28 <dwm> vinod-
17:23:43 <dwm> i harassed you yesterday about developing the brief install doc
17:24:05 <vinod> C: once installed, make sure the workflow parameter graphviz_dot_path points to the proper location
17:24:05 <chump> commented item C
17:24:23 <vinod> dwm: oh - are you mike adler?
17:24:29 <dwm> that's me
17:24:44 <dwm> if I can help with that, I would like to. 
17:25:00 <dwm> I just don't have much authoritative knowledge of the OACS
17:25:03 <vinod> cool! The more help the better
17:25:23 <vinod> that's ok - i didn't either til i started using it :-)
17:26:01 <dwm> i think we should convert that doc to the alpha - from -scratch  doc
17:26:11 <vinod> part of the problem with my guide was that i made it for *me*, so i assumed people had pg installed and were using CVS etc
17:26:20 <vinod> dwm: good idea
17:26:36 <dwm> is there anyone leading the documentation efforts
17:26:37 <dwm> ?
17:26:53 <dwm> roberto?
17:26:57 <vinod> yup!
17:27:15 <vinod> he's in the process of putting together a documentation roadmap
17:27:28 <dwm> can we peak?
17:27:35 <talli> and we need help designing the doc page on the new openacs.org
17:28:05 <vinod> dwm: i haven't seen it yet, but i hear it's coming soon
17:28:27 <dwm> talli  - I'd be will to participate with that. I have the drive to do the leg work, but I will need some oversight to get it right.
17:29:22 <dwm> I mean, can we peek at roberto's roadmap? 
17:29:42 <vinod> dwm: that's what i mean - i haven't seen the roadmap yet
17:30:14 <dwm> oh, i didn't see the reply
17:30:32 <dwm> this bitchx client is very loud...
17:31:20 <vinod> :-) as soon as i hear from rbm about the roadmap, i'll get in touch with you again.
17:32:58 <dwm> great. in the meanwhile, i think it would be worth it to edit in some ways to confirm the validity of each step in the doc.
17:34:17 <vinod> sounds good
17:34:17 <dwm> first time installs are always convoluted, including lots of back-ups and redos, so it's good to be able to confirm that the state is dandy before you proceed
17:34:59 <vinod> agreed - that would definitely make it more useful
17:36:08 <dwm> I think that's a matter of suggesting 'make tests' (assuming that's available) and then describing what aolserver should print out in the foreground.
17:43:59 <dwm> talli - I'd like some more information on hosting by Musea -- would it be possible to test 4.x on what you typically provide?
17:53:49 <nkd> nkd has joined #openacs
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17:55:12 <nkd> hi everyone
17:55:24 <nkd> spork, how did you do on your exam?
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17:58:17 <talli> dwm: yes, we would support 4.x
17:58:47 <talli> brb
17:59:06 <dwm> dwm has joined #openacs
18:16:53 <talli> dwm: we offer hosting support for 4.x
18:29:14 <hazmat> hello
18:29:33 <nkd> hi hazmat
18:29:35 <talli> hey kapil
18:29:41 <hazmat> hi  guys
18:29:48 <dwm> hello
18:30:14 <hazmat> talli: i responded to your rfc on the bboard. did you have any additional questions
18:30:15 <talli> thanks for that webmail note kapil
18:30:22 <hazmat> np
18:30:42 <talli> lemme check, but i think that was more or less the answer. i just remembered you mentioning it the other day adn wanted to get more info from you
18:31:40 <hazmat> adn?
18:32:58 <talli> i think everything i would have wanted to know is there. i'll wait till others respond. 
18:33:18 <talli> one could not use the ACS templating with python?
18:34:11 <hazmat> talli: i don't think so, its theoretically possible but acs templating is a nightmare of upvars to untangle, i know i don't feel like figuring it out:)
18:34:45 <talli> so what might you suggest?
18:37:41 <hazmat> talli: hmm.. i've been thinking about that, i know that the ZPL (zope public license) is supposed to become GPL compatible in a few months, i've looked at some of the templating systems mentioned on the webware.sf.net webpage, i need to investigate them and their licenses a little more.
18:38:29 <hazmat> hazmat: most of the webware users seem pretty happy with http://www.cheetahtemplate.org/
18:40:20 <talli> i'm not too enthusiastic about integrating zope templates, at least DTML, with ATP
18:40:54 <talli> if ATP is complicated, then it wouldn't make too much sense to try and mix the two, particularly since DTML is a bit odd (at first at least)
18:41:21 <talli> i guess they were planning on deprecating DTML, though, right?
18:42:25 <hazmat> i wouldn't mix dtml and atp, i would set variables in a tcl namespace and than call the acs templating system
18:43:05 <talli> so where would zope come in?
18:43:16 <jerryasher> jerryasher has joined #openacs
18:43:26 <davb> hi jerry
18:43:34 <jerryasher> Hi Dave,
18:43:38 <nkd> hi jerry
18:43:43 <hazmat> dtml isn't really deprecated, but most people are transitioning to ZPT since offers impressive functionality (in terms of separating content/logic) and colloboration with designers, but dtml won't be going away for a long time
18:44:38 <hazmat> talli: zope doesn't come in, it was an experiement to see if i could, however the zodb (the object store) might be useful for. in terms of webmail none of that is needed other than a templating system. dtml and zpt can be used apart from zope
18:45:35 <hazmat> talli: zodb useful for other things that don't nesc. mesh well with a relational system or for rapid prototyping...
18:46:30 <talli> i know an oodb is cool for some things, like CMS
18:47:03 <talli> and i'm not the person to argue about systems architecture.
18:47:12 <talli> but webmail would be really cool
18:47:28 <hazmat> i want to see how people respond first
18:47:37 <talli> if it could be rebuilt quickly using python, that would be awesome
18:47:40 <hazmat> hi jerry
18:48:49 <jerryasher> Okay, I had three hours sleep.  I should know hazmat, but...?
18:48:56 <jerryasher> (is your name Anne Thrax?)
18:49:19 <hazmat> closer to nuclear waste, kapil
18:49:36 <jerryasher> Hi Kapil!  I was reading with interest your python excursions.
18:50:17 <jerryasher> * jerryasher grumbling, all this damn python and tcl, just bring back LISP!
18:50:22 <hazmat> i'm here to answer questions if anyone has any?
18:50:41 <hazmat> come on jerry you know you want to use java :)
18:51:17 <jerryasher> Yes Java, that's the C meets SmallTalk and LISP right?
18:51:35 <jerryasher> Did any of you folks ever use Gosling's emacs?
18:51:52 <jerryasher> A complete version of emacs for the VAX, written in C, with a 
18:51:58 <hazmat> whats that?
18:52:02 <jerryasher> not quite LISP list built into it.
18:52:21 <jerryasher> Well I'll never be a Gosling level programmer, but
18:52:36 <jerryasher> he does have a history of taking LISP and other OOPy things and redoing them into C.
18:53:06 <hazmat> i'd rather be a james clark :)
18:53:17 <jerryasher> Or his banker.
18:56:57 <jerryasher> Hey Aaron, are you around?
18:57:09 <jerryasher> I have an RSS question for you.
18:57:18 <AaronSw> Yep, what's up?
18:57:48 <jerryasher> So I built this user blog module thing, and I want to make it spit out RSS when asked.
18:57:59 <AaronSw> Great!
18:58:07 <jerryasher> I'm currently using RSS 0.91
18:58:23 <jerryasher> Does that seem a reasonable choice?
18:58:37 <AaronSw> Well, as an author of RSS 1.0 I do recommend it. ;-)
18:58:59 <jerryasher> Ah, interesting!
18:59:03 <AaronSw> http://purl.org/rss/1.0/
18:59:03 <chump> D: http://purl.org/rss/1.0/ from AaronSw
18:59:10 <AaronSw> D:|RSS 1.0
18:59:10 <chump> titled item D
18:59:25 <jerryasher> Well then are a) folks writing RSS 1.0 clients?
18:59:32 <hazmat> AaronSw: do people actually rss1.0  for syndication purposes, i can't find many feeds?
18:59:44 <AaronSw> Yeah, there's a lot of users.
18:59:47 <hazmat> s/many/any
18:59:49 <jerryasher> b) is RSS 1.0 acceptable to the Userland keiretsu?
18:59:53 <AaronSw> RSS 1.0 is compliant with just about all RSS clients.
19:00:21 <AaronSw> Dave Winer made some fuss about RSS 1.0 for reasons that aren't clear to me, but it's perfectly comaptible with his software.
19:00:45 <jerryasher> That's what I wanted to hear.  I may have a weird skew of the world, but 
19:01:05 <hazmat> are many  people actually extending it with namespaces for public feeds?
19:01:06 <jerryasher> it appears that if you want any mindshare in RSSland, it's important to be compatible with Userland.
19:01:31 <AaronSw> Your world is skewed. ;)
19:01:46 <AaronSw> But, yes, it's definitely good to be compatible.
19:01:53 <AaronSw> So we worked very hard to ensure that we are.
19:01:55 <jerryasher> Oh I know.  I huddle in this room afraid of anthrax, and fluoridation.
19:02:05 <AaronSw> Heheh.
19:03:03 <jerryasher> Okay, well I think I'll go away for a little while and follow that link to rss 1.0.
19:03:52 <AaronSw> OK -- it's pretty similar to RSS 0.9 and friends -- just added some extensibility/compatibility features.
19:03:52 <talli> fluoridation is a post-WWII commie conspiracy
19:04:50 <jerryasher> That's not quite true....  I grew up figuring I was a fluoridated baby, but Los Angeles just went
19:05:03 <jerryasher> to fluoridation less than ten years ago.
19:05:24 <jerryasher> At the time there were some very interesting articles showing that fluoridation may
19:05:32 <talli> affect bodily fluids?
19:05:33 <jerryasher> have been dramatically overrated.
19:05:44 <jerryasher> (and purity of essense!)
19:06:02 <jerryasher> Folk's teeth improved as their diets improved and brushing habits improved.
19:06:05 <talli> i noticed something during the physical act of love which suggests fluoridation contaminated my essence
19:06:14 <jerryasher> It confounded most studies.
19:06:37 <jerryasher> And then comparisons of fluoridated vs. non fluoridated cities and counties showed no discernable
19:06:42 <jerryasher> effects of fluoridation.
19:06:56 <jerryasher> Except those that got fluoridated were all commie bastards.
19:07:02 <AaronSw> heh heh heh
19:08:15 <jerryasher> Anyway, off to read about RSS 1.0.  
19:09:31 <jerryasher> Hey this is great, the spec is only tens months old.  I'm powering up that technology curve!
19:10:15 <nkd> bye guys
19:10:39 <hazmat> AaronSw:  have you played around with the rdf support in mozilla?
19:10:54 <nkd> nkd has left #openacs
19:11:27 <talli> are IE5.5 or IE 6 capable of displaying XML/XSL?
19:11:38 <hazmat> yes
19:12:51 <talli> how? i'm trying to view DocBook files as something other than XML
19:13:59 <shagster> shagster has joined #openacs
19:14:04 <davb> Yes.
19:14:14 <shagster> No. :)
19:14:33 <davb> If its linked to a stylesheet it should render it if it can find the stylesheet.
19:14:57 <hazmat> how bout http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2000/05/03/msie/
19:14:57 <talli> i see. 
19:15:54 <hazmat> or http://www.w3schools.com/xsl/xsl_transformation.asp
19:16:11 <hazmat> google is your friend :)
19:21:05 <AaronSw> * AaronSw disconnects
19:21:13 <AaronSw> * AaronSw reconnects
19:21:53 <chump> chump has quit
19:22:13 <talli> i figured it out. the problem was that i am a retard
19:22:37 <dwm> it wasn't the flouridation?
19:23:12 <AaronSw> Aha!
19:23:25 <jerryasher> You don't get it!  He's a retard BECAUSE of the fluoridation!
19:24:13 <hazmat> i thought it was the lead in the pipes
19:25:10 <jerryasher> Poor Talli, lead in the pipes, lead in the paint, and fluoridation.
19:25:29 <dwm> * dwm resists jokes about lead in his pipe
19:26:04 <jerryasher> Oh man, poor talli, no lead in his pipe, lead in the paint and fluoridation....
19:26:59 <chump> chump has joined #openacs
19:27:26 <jerryasher> Have you folks obligatorily visited MSN today using Mozilla or Opera or anything not IE?
19:27:36 <talli> sorry, it took me a while to read your posts. i'm very slow
19:27:51 <talli> did they really block those browsers?
19:28:21 <jerryasher> yes, I just checked.
19:28:23 <davb> ack
19:28:34 <davb> Oh well. Good think I only use Opera and Mozilla.
19:28:39 <davb> s/think/thing
19:28:41 <talli> whoa
19:28:46 <jerryasher> I love how they claim the reason is that these browsers are NOT W3C compliant.
19:28:52 <davb> heh.
19:28:58 <jerryasher> I think it's idiocy not conspiracy.
19:29:04 <AaronSw>   Attention: Web Browser Upgrade Required to View MSN.com                       
19:29:04 <AaronSw>                                                                                 
19:29:05 <AaronSw>    If you are seeing this page, we have detected that the browser that you      
19:29:05 <AaronSw>    are using will not render MSN.com correctly. Additionally, you'll see the    
19:29:05 <AaronSw>    most advanced functionality of MSN.com only with the latest version of       
19:29:05 <AaronSw>    Microsoft Internet Explorer or MSN Explorer. If you wish to visit MSN.com,   
19:29:07 <AaronSw>    please select the appropriate download link below.                           
19:29:11 <AaronSw> bleech
19:29:38 <davb> will it work with IE 5.01?
19:29:49 <davb> or just 5.5/6?
19:30:01 <hazmat> wtf thats annoying...
19:30:06 <hazmat> not suprising though
19:30:17 <davb> I am now in no risk of getting a MS Passport.
19:30:31 <AaronSw> Not like anyone _wants_ to visit their site.
19:30:57 <dwm> finally a content filter I can appreciate
19:31:02 <jerryasher> YES!
19:31:08 <hazmat> hmm.. i wonder if  just changing the user agent string would work...
19:31:42 <jerryasher> What I find so funny/insulting is how they stole from WASP.
19:31:50 <jerryasher> I'd love to hear zeldman on this.
19:33:53 <davb> from news.com: "If you change the Opera string by one letter, it is letting us in."
19:37:34 <chump> chump has quit
19:38:32 <jerryasher> I apologize for being so chatty today: check out: http://www.executivechute.com/
19:38:36 <dwm> WASP?
19:38:55 <jerryasher> WASP: http://www.webstandards.org/upgrade/pr.html
19:39:21 <jerryasher> These are sort of self deploying parachutes for skyscrapers
19:39:25 <dwm> prescious
19:39:40 <jerryasher> the name executive gives me the message it's for the boss to escape while I burn
19:40:30 <dwm> they must require some extensive waivers before you purchase one of these
19:41:05 <jerryasher> seemingly not: http://www.executivechute.com/order.htm
19:41:31 <jerryasher> they do say it's risky.  they do say wait for the firemen to rescue you. and that this is for last resort.
19:41:55 <jerryasher> the same company also makes parachutes for ultralights....
19:43:17 <jerryasher> it's bizarre to imagine a world where terrorism is *almost everyday*, where skyscrapers are still built
19:43:25 <AaronSw> * AaronSw disconnects
19:43:30 <jerryasher> and where your chair cushion may contain a parachute.
19:45:00 <davb> jerry: where did you get those photos on your web site. I need something like that for a mockup I am doing. (unless its a trade secret.. :)
19:45:22 <jerryasher> it's an embarassment to me, more than a trade secret.
19:45:57 <davb> heh. OK, I'll find my own.
19:45:58 <jerryasher> They're from a web builder from a company recently mentioned on this blog
19:46:07 <davb> heh.
19:46:12 <davb> Then I won't have them.
19:48:49 <davb> * davb heads to photodisc.com
19:49:21 <davb> actually http://www.istockphoto.com is great if they have the image you want. totally free.
19:49:49 <jerryasher> Wow, that's worth bookmarking, thanks!
19:50:08 <davb> np. I got it from zeldman's site one day.
19:54:59 <davb> WHY does every web form make me scroll down to NEW YORK instead of letting me type 2 little letters?????
20:03:51 <nkd> nkd has joined #openacs
20:10:57 <davb> ack. My mail and web servers have stopped responding. hmmm
20:13:57 <nkd> nkd has left #openacs
20:25:22 <dwm> dwm has quit
20:28:49 <davb> davb has quit
20:30:12 <adler> adler has joined #openacs
20:31:58 <hazmat> firing up a fresh aolserver to play with python and openacs...
20:32:11 <ola> ola has quit
20:41:20 <jerryasher> jerryasher has quit
20:42:03 <adler> the (b)loggers are nice
20:44:42 <vinod> vinod has joined #openacs
20:49:38 <adler> adler has quit
20:49:45 <davb> davb has joined #openacs
20:50:18 <davb> phew. Its back up. I am paying way too much for recently flakey DSL.
20:50:38 <vinod> * vinod will take dave's DSL
20:51:09 <adler> adler has joined #openacs
21:02:40 <davb> heh
21:02:44 <davb> and the bill?
21:02:52 <vinod> no, you can keep that
21:02:59 <vinod> don't want to be greedy or anything
21:03:04 <vinod> :-)
21:03:58 <vinod> although, there have been times over the past month when i would have paid ANYTHING just to get some decent access :-)
21:07:24 <hazmat> vinod: where do you live? no dsl/cable?
21:07:42 <hazmat> boston, mass
21:08:05 <vinod> i live in dorchester, MA which is only 5 minutes from boston, but there's no high speed access here
21:08:15 <vinod> they keep saying it's coming soon, but i no longer believe them
21:08:24 <hazmat> thats incredible, is this dsl or cable?
21:08:43 <vinod> i've tried getting both - no luck
21:09:08 <hazmat> bummer
21:09:23 <vinod> i used to live in boston proper and had really reliable cable-modem service from RCN
21:09:42 <vinod> so i've had the good life and now i'm suffering (cue violins)
21:09:50 <hazmat> * hazmat would move for broadband :)
21:10:04 <vinod> i'm getting to that point :-) where are you kapil?
21:10:31 <hazmat> los angelos, or more specifically pasadena
21:11:00 <Spork> did I miss much?
21:11:11 <vinod> cool. yeah, whenever i do move, internet access will be #1 on my list of must-haves
21:11:14 <hazmat> we figured out the secret of the universe
21:11:26 <vinod> Spork: and we're not telling
21:12:23 <Spork> well shit
21:12:29 <Spork> I guess I will have to read the logs
21:12:31 <Spork> muhahaha
21:19:25 <Spork> I got my oil changed
21:19:27 <Spork> yippies
21:20:17 <Spork> anyone alive?
21:20:33 <davb> heh
21:20:40 <Spork> Dave
21:20:42 <Spork> you're awake
21:20:45 <Spork> do me a favor ;)
21:21:02 <Spork> tell me how the responce time and if you can still access it: www.neverhere.com
21:25:43 <davb> instant
21:26:51 <Spork> great
21:35:52 <adler> docomp$ ab -n100 -c45 http://www.neverhere.com/index.html
21:35:52 <adler> This is ApacheBench, Version 1.3c <$Revision: 1.45 $> apache-1.3
21:35:52 <adler> Copyright (c) 1996 Adam Twiss, Zeus Technology Ltd, http://www.zeustech.net/
21:35:52 <adler> Copyright (c) 1998-2000 The Apache Group, http://www.apache.org/
21:35:52 <adler> Server Software:        Apache/1.3.14
21:35:52 <adler> Server Hostname:        www.neverhere.com
21:35:54 <adler> Server Port:            80
21:35:56 <adler> Document Path:          /index.html
21:35:58 <adler> Document Length:        900 bytes
21:36:00 <adler> Concurrency Level:      45
21:36:02 <adler> Time taken for tests:   1.820 seconds
21:36:04 <adler> Complete requests:      100
21:36:06 <adler> Failed requests:        0
21:36:08 <adler> Total transferred:      104000 bytes
21:36:10 <adler> HTML transferred:       90000 bytes
21:36:12 <adler> Requests per second:    54.95
21:36:14 <adler> Transfer rate:          57.14 kb/s received
21:36:16 <adler> Connnection Times (ms)
21:36:18 <adler>               min   avg   max
21:36:20 <adler> Connect:       14    30    60
21:36:22 <adler> Processing:    91   465   757
21:36:24 <adler> Total:        105   495   817
21:36:35 <Spork> niiice
21:36:44 <Spork> What's a good concurrency level?
21:37:21 <adler> i have no clue
21:37:31 <Spork> heh
21:37:34 <Spork> alrighty
21:38:28 <Spork> here's a question 
21:38:30 <adler> common sense would suggest ~10 for a low volumn site and closer to 50 for a high volumn site
21:39:05 <Spork> My boss gave me this little thing to help me write my status report and to "improve my writing" but I just read it and found 2 grammar mistakes and 1 spelling mistake
21:39:20 <Spork> should I point this out to him or is that just like a bad thing to do
21:40:23 <adler> mark it up with obnoxious editting marks. with red pen, preferably
21:40:44 <Spork> lol
21:40:54 <Spork> He'll ask me if i'm trying to get fired again
21:41:16 <Spork> like the time i named the employee hierarchy table "corporate_slaves"
21:41:41 <adler> nice
21:41:54 <adler> did you see the jobs board on the openacs.museatech.net site?
21:42:15 <Spork> nope
21:42:17 <Spork> * Spork looks
21:43:04 <adler> \w
21:43:25 <Spork> can't find it
21:43:38 <Spork> heh
21:43:44 <Spork> there's talli and Dave
21:43:49 <adler> http://openacs.museatech.net/community/
21:43:54 <Spork> aha, til is on there
21:44:35 <Spork> lol
21:44:37 <Spork> who posted those jobs
21:44:43 <adler> my hero
21:44:46 <Spork> "I have a bridge to sell you"
21:44:47 <Spork> rofl
21:45:48 <Spork> Is that openacs.museatech.net site a replacement for openacs.com soon?
21:45:48 <davb> Yeah! I am free! (going back to linux!)
21:45:48 <Spork> it looks a million times better :)
21:45:48 <davb> yes
21:45:48 <Spork> lol
21:45:50 <davb> davb has quit
21:45:50 <Spork> Dave, what do you think
21:45:53 <Spork> doh
21:46:21 <adler> i like it.
21:46:27 <Spork> yeah I like it too
21:46:31 <Spork> looks more informative
21:47:27 <adler> i like the new look, although the blue feels a little weak
21:47:42 <Spork> my personal favorite website color is grey
21:47:57 <adler> i think it will eventually be more useful than the old site
21:48:09 <Spork> and not that wimpy light grey or that "crap i can't read the black text" grey
21:48:17 <adler> and basically, i think it's important to showcase the current technology.. but what do i know?
21:48:24 <Spork> lol
21:50:27 <Spork> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/20011025/tc/msn_com_shuts_out_non-microsoft_browsers_1.html
21:50:31 <Spork> aha
21:50:37 <Spork> loggy on
21:50:40 <Spork> or not
21:50:43 <Spork> * Spork gets mad
21:53:42 <adler> loggy?
21:53:49 <adler> the blogger?
21:53:54 <Spork> yeah
21:53:58 <Spork> loggy and chump
21:54:06 <adler> we never had those back in the 90's when I was IRCing too much
21:54:38 <Spork> oh
21:54:39 <Spork> heh
21:54:53 <Spork> yeah loggy is the channel logger and chump is the link logger
21:54:54 <adler> the resulting blogs are nice
21:55:06 <Spork> chump is the cute one
21:55:14 <Spork> loggy just dumps all the stuff into a text file
21:55:18 <talli> andrew: are you there?
21:55:25 <Spork> Hi talli 
21:55:46 <hazmat> we need a cool bot in here
21:55:54 <Spork> chump is cool
21:56:08 <Spork> he's just not cool enough to forget some things
21:56:18 <hazmat> :A
21:56:21 <hazmat> A:
21:56:23 <talli> hey guys
21:56:26 <Spork> he's not here :)
21:56:28 <hazmat> hi talli
21:56:29 <talli> bummer
21:56:35 <adler> hey talli
21:56:41 <Spork> yeah maybe AaronSw should get it back
21:56:45 <adler> we could replace him with a bot, though
21:56:50 <talli> he's got some scary data about the scalability of the OACS4 bboards
21:56:57 <Spork> Who?
21:56:58 <hazmat> where
21:57:02 <Spork> chump?
21:57:02 <talli> andrew spencer
21:57:04 <Spork> oh
21:57:20 <hazmat> new post?
21:57:24 <adler> scary/good as in halloween or scary bad?
21:57:49 <hazmat> talli: whats the link?
21:57:56 <talli> private emails
21:57:58 <talli> scary horrible
21:58:03 <talli> like they are useless 
21:58:04 <Spork> ok
21:58:06 <Spork> Simpsons are on
21:58:13 <Spork> time to spend my time eating chips and watching tv
21:58:17 <Spork> * Spork misses that
21:59:32 <gama> gama has joined #openacs
21:59:58 <andrew> talli
22:00:19 <andrew> sorry, I was away
22:01:14 <adler> ciao
22:01:20 <adler> adler has quit
22:01:22 <Spork> bye
22:03:41 <nkd> nkd has joined #openacs
22:04:55 <davb> davb has joined #OpenACS
22:05:48 <hazmat> has anyone done any work with clustering the openacs4 or acs4?
22:05:56 <Spork> wb
22:09:49 <talli> what is BitchX?
22:10:53 <davb> talli: IRC client
22:11:35 <talli> yes, i'm downloading it. thanks
22:16:55 <Spork> heh
22:17:05 <Spork> Comes in the more evil Windows console version too
22:19:12 <Spork> lol@!
22:19:20 <Spork> I just found a neat bug in someone's page
22:20:01 <talli> i can't even figure out how to start it
22:20:10 <talli> the fucker downloaded IBM sash for me, but nothing else
22:20:18 <Spork> talli what's the problem?
22:20:44 <talli> i downloaded the bitchx file for windows, the automatic setup one
22:20:49 <Spork> ok 
22:20:50 <Spork> and?
22:20:56 <talli> i started it,adn it immediately downloaded IBM Sash
22:21:02 <Spork> what's ibm sash?
22:21:04 <talli> am i supposed to do something afterwards?
22:21:18 <Spork> hold on
22:21:23 <Spork> I'll check
22:21:51 <talli> which version are you using?
22:22:18 <Spork> ωνω BitchX: Client: BitchX-1.0c17 (internal version 19990221)
22:22:31 <talli> okthanks
22:22:39 <Spork> i'm installing the NT one now
22:22:48 <Spork> are you using a windows or a unix version?
22:23:26 <talli> windows
22:23:29 <Spork> ok
22:23:31 <Spork> WinNT?
22:23:33 <talli> lemme see if the 1.0c17 works
22:23:40 <talli> i downloaded 1.0c11
22:23:40 <Spork> that one was from unix
22:23:45 <Spork> right
22:23:48 <Spork> that's the one I just got
22:26:23 <talli> are using it on windows or on unix?
22:26:41 <Spork> unix ... trying to get the windows version now
22:26:53 <Spork> I just need the right flag for connecting to a server
22:27:25 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax has joined #openacs
22:27:26 <Psychephylax> hi
22:28:12 <Spork> talli 
22:28:30 <talli> hey
22:28:35 <Spork> just cd to the directory and do BitchX -n talli2 irc.openprojects.net
22:28:39 <Spork> however
22:28:50 <Spork> but
22:28:53 <Spork> ack
22:28:56 <Spork> that's the same thing as however
22:28:57 <Spork> lol
22:29:05 <Spork> you need to set the dumb terminal flag
22:29:37 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax has quit
22:29:54 <talli> fuck it
22:29:56 <talli> that's too much work
22:30:00 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax has joined #openacs
22:30:03 <talli> thanks for your help, though
22:30:06 <Spork> no problem
22:30:07 <Spork> it runs
22:30:12 <Spork> it just doesn't know to scroll up lines
22:30:15 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax has quit
22:31:06 <Spork> I use mIRC for windows and BitchX for console chat in unix and XChat for an X client
22:31:23 <hazmat> chatzilla here
22:31:28 <talli> yeah, i'm using mIRC
22:31:32 <talli> how is chatzilla? 
22:31:39 <Spork> No idea
22:32:03 <hazmat> pretty good for me, but i'm still an irc newbie. its been stable though, my net conn is another story.
22:33:10 <talli> screw it. mIRC is stable
22:33:12 <talli> it sucks tough
22:33:16 <Spork> it's not too bad
22:33:36 <Spork> talli go to google.com and search for Peace and Protection
22:34:17 <Spork> it's an old script but it's still great
22:34:27 <Spork> I agree..plain mIRC lacks many features
22:35:25 <Spork> woohooo
22:35:30 <Spork> bitchx supports tcl scripts!
22:37:51 <hazmat> xchat supports python scripts... they've got them running as bots in #zope and #rdfig, it does google searches for you and other cool stuff, i'd like to get one here.
22:38:01 <talli> talli has quit
22:39:54 <talli> talli has joined #openacs
22:39:57 <talli> yo
22:39:59 <Spork> wb talli 
22:40:01 <talli> this one is better
22:40:07 <talli> peace and freedom, that is
22:40:16 <Spork> Good :)
22:40:16 <talli> i was using plain mIRC
22:40:30 <Spork> not peace and freedom..peace and protection
22:40:35 <talli> what ever
22:40:38 <Spork> :P
22:40:50 <Spork> It's got a lot of nice feature type things
22:40:57 <talli> i prefer peace and freedom. peace and protection is something dubyah says
22:41:04 <Spork> heh
22:41:05 <Spork> alright
22:41:28 <talli> * talli is trying to figure out the new UI, though
22:41:34 <Spork> Easy
22:41:39 <Spork> Most stuff is a popup
22:41:40 <hazmat> * hazmat realizes he knows nothing
22:41:41 <Spork> right click
22:41:54 <Spork> talli, look through all the P&P options 
22:42:20 <talli> dope
22:42:31 <talli> thanks for the link spork
22:42:56 <Spork> what link?
22:43:28 <gama> gama has quit
22:43:42 <talli> sorry. the lead to p&p
22:43:48 <Spork> ah
22:43:50 <Spork> no problme
22:44:00 <Spork> I use that exclusively for windows and bitchx for unix ;)
22:44:17 <davb> sounds cool.
22:47:45 <rbm> rbm has joined #openacs
22:47:50 <Spork> hi roberto
22:47:53 <talli> hey rbm
22:48:01 <nkd> hi rbm
22:48:07 <rbm> Geesh. I was disconnected for a long time and hadn't noticed.
22:48:08 <nkd> C: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00035k&topic_id=14&topic=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Testing
22:48:22 <rbm> * rbm waves to everyone 
22:48:58 <talli> hey rbm, did you get my email?
22:49:42 <davb> DSL is down again. This sucks.
22:50:42 <rbm> talli: just saw it
22:50:50 <talli> cool
22:56:44 <Spork> heh
22:56:58 <Spork> I am really tempted to mark up the page my boss wanted me to use as a template in red ink
22:57:07 <Spork> there are 3 spelling mistakes and one grammar one
22:57:08 <Spork> lol
22:58:03 <davb> Or just reproduce the spelling mistakes, etc ...
22:59:13 <Spork> heh
22:59:15 <Spork> First line
22:59:17 <davb> Aigh. My mail was working for about 30 secs, not the server is inaccessible again.
22:59:25 <Spork> "I have attempted to use proper grammer and spelling"
22:59:46 <rbm> wi spill things vary corectly here
23:02:26 <Spork> nah
23:02:28 <Spork> it wasn't that bad
23:02:39 <Spork> lol
23:02:57 <Spork> "Validate correctness of information, check grammer and punciations"
23:03:06 <Spork> That's right off the sheet I got
23:05:45 <vinod> you always gotta check your punciations
23:06:14 <Spork> heh
23:13:52 <talli> talli has quit
23:15:25 <rbm> * rbm goes to eat something. brb
23:15:43 <Spork> bye bye
23:19:24 <hazmat> does have any tips on clustering an openacs4/acs4 installation?
23:19:31 <hazmat> s/does/does anyone
23:21:03 <Spork> nope :(
23:24:29 <hazmat> hmm...
23:32:05 <vinod> hazmat: you've probably seen this... http://openacs.org/doc/server-cluster.html
23:32:25 <hazmat> no i hadn't. thanks vinod
23:32:30 <vinod> ahh - that's for openacs3 though
23:33:34 <hazmat> vinod the same principles should apply though.
23:34:03 <vinod> cool - i've never done clustering
23:50:35 <hazmat> hm... its seems kinda strange all the acs docs warn about storing content in the object metadata system cause it will presumably blow performance, yet the cr is basically doing just that by sticking all the content in one place...
23:56:48 <davb> interesting. Do they mean acs_attributes? 
23:57:36 <nkd> C: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0002Ge&topic_id=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Design&topic=12
23:57:55 <nkd> Check Richard Li's post.
23:58:17 <davb> thanks
23:58:20 <hazmat> that is serious
23:59:03 <davb> he doesn't say much. 
23:59:27 <davb> Well the permissions system was completely unusable, but they tweaked a few queries and it turned right around.
23:59:47 <rbm> davb: how are those CDs coming?L
23:59:55 <davb> But it looks like there will be quite a bit of optimization work after the release.