00:27:50 loggy has joined #openacs 00:27:50 topic is: Welcome to the OpenACS Helpline | http://www.openacs.org/ 00:27:50 Users on #openacs: loggy xemacs5 vinod KarlL chump rbm abbaJ AaronSw shagster 00:27:51 This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog 00:47:57 Psychephylax has joined #openacs 00:48:06 Ahoy Matey 00:54:44 ahoy 00:54:49 Hmmm 00:54:55 I need to fix my resume :) 00:56:13 what to write..what to write... 01:15:21 KarlL has quit 01:20:31 davb has joined #OpenACS 01:22:38 Yippee! Domain based subsite patches! 01:22:53 http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/one-file.tcl?file_id=218 01:22:53 F: http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/one-file.tcl?file_id=218 from davb 01:23:01 F:|Patches for domain based subsites 01:23:01 titled item F 01:23:21 Psychephylax has left #openacs 01:23:28 Psychephylax has joined #openacs 01:23:33 hi dave 01:23:44 good idea 01:23:46 ack 01:43:33 hi 01:44:41 Hey 01:44:47 I need your creative genius 01:45:01 I need to add stuff to my resume about my current employment 01:45:13 how do I make it sound long complex and hard to do? 01:48:25 yeah right. 01:48:30 what? 01:48:35 Like I have a cool job or something... 01:48:39 Ok. 01:48:39 lol 01:48:50 You have experience with multi-tier client server applications 01:48:53 or something like that. 01:48:56 lol 01:49:01 what the hell is it? 01:49:13 Multi-tier = web server, database server, web client, or something like that. 01:49:20 ·Development of a support tool using TCL, Oracle and AOLServer for use by Customer Service Representatives. 01:49:40 Aha! 01:49:44 Not bad. Really. I am not kidding. Look at the arsdigita layer cake. 01:50:12 good thing markd2's not around, he had enough cookies before. 01:50:15 ·Development of a support tool using TCL, Oracle and AOLServer for use by Customer Service Representatives. Using a multi-tier client server application toolkit from ArsDigita. 01:50:22 :! 01:51:03 That may or may not be accurate. Don't blame me if you can't explain it. 01:51:09 lol 01:51:45 Just list EVERY technology ever invetned like this: 01:51:55 bahahaha 01:52:18 Coldfusion, ASP, Access, Filemaker Pro, PHP, Perl, CGI, Apache, IIS, Word, Excel, Sybase, 01:52:22 etc,etc,etc. 01:52:27 Oh, good idea 01:52:30 I know IIS 01:52:46 If you search for Filemaker Pro on google. you will get a million resumes all the same. They must copy them from the same place. 01:53:09 I am sure none of those people even know what CGI stands for, how you use it, etc... 01:53:24 lol 01:53:30 Well 01:53:35 But hey, what do I know. I am getting paid to build a complex application in microsoft access. 01:53:42 CGI can either be common gateway interface or Computer Generated Imagery 01:53:56 :) 01:54:09 Exactly! 01:54:23 See...I know stuff 01:54:44 but I never actually learned stuff to the point where I can safely say "Yes, I know ____" 01:55:04 Take Java for example 01:55:14 Aha. All you need to know is more than the interviewer :) 01:55:18 I had one semester of Java 01:55:32 Right. Is this you first real-live application? 01:55:35 On my resume I write "I know Java" 01:55:38 yes 01:55:44 well 01:55:50 What do you mean "real-live application" 01:55:53 OK, lets see what if has. Workflow? Can a manager assign a ticket to someone else? 01:55:54 I've written apps before 01:56:09 huh? 01:56:11 That someone would actually use as opposed to a class assignment. 01:56:26 well, I wrote an app that I use myself 01:56:32 In visual basic :) 01:56:34 If something breaks, can the manager or supervisor send it to someone else to fix it? 01:56:53 I'm lost 01:56:58 what are we doing now? 01:56:58 Ah, put it on there. Check the want ads they want 10 years of Java, Perl, VB, Access SQL server, oracle, etc,etc. 01:57:06 I am trying to make up stuff more your resume. 01:57:14 s/more/for 01:57:14 Stop talking like Yoda 01:57:21 heh 01:57:22 lol 01:57:24 ok. 01:57:31 It would help for you to see my resume 01:57:34 Correct? 01:57:55 Actually at one point my wife and I were going to rewrite people's resumes for them as a business. 01:58:01 URL? 01:58:02 hehehe http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Stu/nblyumbe/resume.html should do the trick 01:58:47 Put what you have learned and what you have accomplished. Not just a list of applications you have used. 01:58:59 Thats general advice I haven't read it yet... 01:59:07 heh 02:00:03 OK. Its just a list. Try to come up with more of a narrative of what you actually did. LIke a project you worked on, what you did on it, how you contributed to the business. 02:00:13 That's the problem 02:00:29 I haven't done that kind of stuff yet 02:00:33 Aha, like me, you haven't actually contributed anything... :) 02:00:38 Precisely 02:00:43 OK. Well wing it. 02:01:01 Like that whole Programming Languages section was from my courses I took 02:01:24 You did setup OpenACS for which is a web application toolkit. You customized it to build an application. 02:01:54 yeah but see, being detailed is also bad 02:02:02 One thing I think works well is to put actual sentences in the resume for what you have done, instead of a bulleted list. But I could be wrong. 02:02:12 Interviewers will be more interested in asking for an interview to ask what the tool does and such :) 02:02:17 Anyway the application letter is much more important. 02:02:33 You mean the cover letter? 02:02:42 I also have NEVER had a technology interview. I am the most sophisticated technology person at my organization. 02:02:44 Yes. 02:02:52 lol 02:02:55 I had 2 02:03:31 You need to tell them how you can contribute to the business. I am not kidding. Each application needs a custom letter written specifically fo the job. It really works. They read that before they even throw out your resume. 02:03:45 Well, see 02:03:51 Tell them what you can offer them in skills, experience, etc... 02:03:57 Our school uses an online thing 02:04:03 Ick. 02:04:06 you just submit your resume 02:04:17 LIke a web form? 02:04:24 I am not sure if you can customize your cover letters to each business 02:04:54 lemme bring it up 02:05:08 Hey, you gonna be here in 15 minutes? 02:05:56 sure. 02:05:59 ok 02:06:04 then I'll be back in 10 or so 02:06:05 ;) 02:07:13 xemacs5 has quit 02:20:07 back 02:20:55 * Psychephylax nudges davb 02:21:22 hey! 02:21:55 Hi :) 02:22:18 Well, life sux 02:22:26 I've been waiting 4 years to buy my car 02:22:33 sorry... 02:22:33 And it's discontinued 02:22:39 ACK! What car? 02:22:44 I'm very tempted to go buy one right now 02:22:48 Hey now you can get a 1 year old one cheap! 02:22:51 F-body cars 02:22:58 Whats an F body? 02:22:59 Camaro, Firebird 02:23:03 Trans Am 02:23:05 Really!!!!!!! 02:23:06 WOW! 02:23:08 yes :( 02:23:11 That really sucks! 02:23:18 I was dying to buy a silver Trans Am 02:23:25 or a Pearly white one 02:23:36 I can't believe it. So the only american car company selling rear-drive cars like that is FORD?? 02:23:40 looks like I'm stuck getting a 'stang 02:23:48 yep 02:23:49 Really get a used one. 02:23:56 I don't want a used one 02:23:59 I want a new one 02:24:02 I want my new car smell 02:24:36 I am still praying Dodge brings back a car like that. They cheated for Nascar using the Intrepid. Its a 4-door family car. (actually I will probably buy with with the 4-door family) 02:25:24 Buy a vette. 02:26:30 I am going to take off soon.... 02:26:33 lol 02:26:35 Vett 02:26:38 If I had the money sure 02:26:46 Well, back to the resume business 02:27:16 OK. 02:27:41 http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/dai/sept01/20010926_dai_camaro_firebird.xml 02:27:41 G: http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/dai/sept01/20010926_dai_camaro_firebird.xml from Psychephylax 02:27:51 G:| 2002 Last Year for Camaro/Firebird 02:27:51 titled item G 02:28:10 G: Looks like Psyche will have to settle for a horse drawn carriage this time around! 02:28:10 commented item G 02:28:49 ha 02:29:09 Hmmmmm 02:29:15 Well demand is way down due to trucks. Since when is a truck a chick magnet? 02:29:30 Now, if I can only find 40,000,000 dollars to buy out that Quebec plant that makes the cars I can spawn off my own car company 02:29:41 Since you can have sex in the truck bed :) 02:29:48 Yeah, except for GM will sue you of course.... 02:29:55 They can sue my fat russian butt 02:30:22 Anyway if you had 40M you could just buy all the 35th anniversary firebirds and sell them for a incredible markup. 02:30:28 lol 02:30:30 I saw one 02:30:50 It was already bought 02:30:52 wait. do they still make the dodge viper? Get one of those! 02:31:06 Gimme 60 g's 02:31:16 I might pick up a Lexus IS300 02:31:18 lol 02:31:33 OK. Anyway I drive a used minivan... really cool... 02:31:44 lol 02:31:47 Hey 02:31:57 If you take out the back seats and soup it up, you can race it! 02:32:01 What?? 02:32:06 I've seen it done :) 02:32:18 Oh yeah. I was actually going to race my daytona. Put a big V8 in it... 02:32:20 Dude in a minivan beat a fool in a corvette 02:32:29 lol 02:32:41 But life happened...oh well... 02:33:16 All I need to do is get my consulting revenue up to $1000/day then I will be all set. 02:33:20 lol 02:33:26 yeah 02:33:33 I don't know what I'm gonna do about a job 02:33:40 My friends say I am "smart" 02:33:44 I disagree 02:33:59 they are leaving off the last 3 letters there.... 02:34:10 yes I am that as well 02:34:15 :) 02:34:24 I impress them with things like my use of htaccess :) 02:34:28 Anyway. Sorry I can't help you. No jobs up here. 02:34:32 Eh 02:34:35 plenty around here 02:34:46 Salomon Smith Barney, Symbol, Cablevision, Chase, Citicorp 02:34:48 But do you really want to be a waiter? 02:35:06 heh 02:35:21 I would recommend not working for a bank unless you don't mind hating your job. They do pay well though. 02:36:07 Not banks 02:36:13 they're financial corporations :) 02:36:45 I am trying to get together some more people around here to work on OpenACS web sites. Everyone around here builds crappy static sites still. Mayeb they throw in a perl script or some ASP but nothing like OpenACS. 02:37:15 heh 02:37:18 I have one guy who wants to build one, but he doesn't have any money. 02:37:19 Well, count me out 02:37:27 Yeah you probably had enough huh? 02:37:33 for now... 02:38:20 Emphasis how you learned and implemented a complex system on Oracle in a short time frame. 02:38:32 It's a good system 02:38:37 I see where it can truly excel 02:38:43 But it lacks one major thing now 02:38:51 Stop back it 6-12 months. 02:38:55 Documentation. 02:39:01 yes 02:39:20 I think aD expected you to learn how it worked from the code. 02:39:29 hah 02:39:33 Or they just quit before the docs were done. 02:40:12 I think once the community starts building sites with it, we'll have alot of pratical HOW-TO type documents. 02:41:18 Well..see...problem is that there won't be many people developing with it unless there's plenty of docs for it 02:41:32 you think I'd be developing for it still if i didn't have to? 02:41:51 Guess not... 02:42:03 precisely 02:42:10 I doubt you would find a better toolkit though. Different yes. 02:42:38 Problem is NOONE ever built any sites with it. aD only built a couple. 02:42:45 There needs to be a multi-tiered documentation for this 02:43:14 There should be an API doc which they _kind_ of havew 02:43:15 Right. The high-level technical stuff is great. But we need real plain language docs that say how to do common tasks. 02:43:24 exactly 02:43:47 Right, but the TCL docs have a page for every command. OpenACS needs that in the docs, not available AFTER installation. 02:44:07 That just needs to all be extracted and every proc needs a code sample. 02:44:17 That would go a long way. 02:44:44 yeah but even that 02:45:03 i don't think that will be enough 02:45:06 I should check out the docs for like Zope or something else. 02:45:19 I don't know about most people but if they are like me, time for them is of the essense 02:45:22 To see how they compare. 02:45:29 Check out the java2 api 02:46:04 That is the direction aD was trying to go I think, but they dropped the ball. 02:46:19 yeah 02:46:29 But even Java Docs have a flaw :) 02:46:52 I think the plan is to have a working system that someone can install in an afternoon and get working. No point in having excellent docs for a broken system. 02:46:54 There's a billion classes each doing something and some classes are just extensions of another one adding 2 or 3 new methods or fields 02:47:14 Aha. So you need a way to see how it all fits together. 02:47:31 I don't see how you can do that without looking at code. 02:47:50 Maybe that's just me though. Not everyone learns the same way. 02:47:55 No, I agree 02:48:01 Looking through code is important 02:48:08 This whole programming business is catch 22 02:48:28 hard to learn to code if you don't know the syntax...Hard to know the syntax if you don't know what the syntax is doing 02:48:39 Yeah. Thing is who are the docs for? The system administrator/webmaster or the programmer customizing the system for a client? 02:48:45 And you don't know what the syntax is doing until you learn the stuff 02:48:47 You need two sets of docs. 02:48:51 yes 02:49:02 Yeah so What I do is take a page, break it, then fix it. 02:49:05 Another thing is this 02:49:09 AD vs. OACS 02:49:19 What about it? 02:49:27 the documentation is so intertwined I can't tell you where I read what 02:49:47 Right. There isn't realy any docs available at Opeanacs.org 02:49:55 yeah 02:49:57 except what is embeeded in the distribution. 02:50:01 The docs are all for 3.x 02:50:03 yeah but see problem is 02:50:21 You guys might not know be aware of what is in AD docs 02:50:25 things might change 02:50:39 I go read the docs, can't find what i'm looking for because the stuff is out of sync 02:50:43 Not for OpenACS/Tcl. They have abandonded the code base. 02:51:02 Well, that's diff but then who's adding to those docs if something new is implemented in OACS? 02:51:05 See wht I mean? 02:51:32 You guys go figure it'll make everyones life easier if you have a FooBar method 02:51:35 Well the OpenACS team is responsible. Don't worry. The docs are coming. You are really on the bleeding edge here. 02:51:44 ;) 02:51:57 Alpha was coming along a month ago 02:52:13 I'm patient 02:52:19 I'm not getting on anyones case 02:52:24 I think once OpenACS 4 is actually released alot of new features and functionality will come out. 02:52:34 I'm just pointing out that it's hard to develop when nobody knows anyting concrete 02:52:49 Yeah, I have been waiting since last year. Alpha was supposed to be out about one year ago. 02:52:56 lol 02:52:57 Nice 02:52:59 I don't think the APIs change. 02:53:12 Hey its still the most productive open source project I have seen. 02:53:36 checkout freshmeat.net 02:53:45 ok 02:53:55 "We changed the logo. This is the sixth logo we have had. Soon we will start coding the project" 02:54:02 :) 02:54:13 Hmmm? 02:54:18 Well OK. There are alot of good projects, just hard to find them in all the crap. 02:54:35 heh 02:54:40 There are thousands of planned projects, that never even get started planning other than applying to sourceforge. 02:54:47 yeah 02:54:56 I'd think having something going first is the first step 02:55:03 going public should be the last concern 02:55:12 Exactly. 02:55:30 But who/what am I? 02:55:32 Some sort fo working code. You can throw it all out, but at least have something to show. 02:55:34 I can't even code 02:55:46 Me neither and I have a package at the OpenACS sdm! 02:55:52 heh 02:55:59 My problem is that I get bored easily 02:56:03 With doing things 02:56:03 At least you will have the paper that says you can. 02:56:09 lol 02:56:21 Like someone can tell me..."Go code me a ___" 02:56:29 That is why I am working on Edit this page and ns_xmlrpc instead of static pages. 02:56:37 I'll say..."Ok"...I'll have all the small ideas in my head on how to do parts of the project 02:56:54 I'll do it for a month or so...then I'll say .. "This is too boring for me"...and I go searching for something new to do 02:57:02 exactly. 02:57:11 I think you are just normal. 02:57:15 heh 02:57:38 Some of the flaws OACS has are very easily fixable 02:57:41 Now that I slacked off on porting, my brain is refreshed an I can think clearly about how to work on static-pages again. 02:57:49 lol 02:58:15 When I first started doing OACS stuff, I didn't know what SQL looked like and what ADP was 02:58:23 really. I looked at the code for about 20 mins and I said "AHA" or eureaka or woohoo! 02:58:27 I still don't 02:58:48 One other suggestion you guys should post on the site is this 02:59:09 Well I read Philip and Alex's guide first. I read Tcl for Web Nerds and Sql for Web nerds and absorbed none of it. I keep refering back every time I have a question. I learn a little at a time. 02:59:14 OACS things should be developed with: a DBA, a developer and a designer 02:59:25 yeah same here 02:59:27 Yeah. that would be nice. 02:59:30 That's me! 02:59:33 I'm not joking 02:59:35 and you! 02:59:37 I know. 02:59:52 If i have oracle questions I go bug our DBA Milton or Mark if he's around.... 02:59:55 don't forget a sysadmin. 03:00:03 THANK GOD HE TAKES COOKIES as payment 03:00:22 Don't tell him I said that, and I'll hope he doesn't read the log ;-/ 03:00:24 he needs to flex his Oracle brain cells. 03:00:44 it's funny though 03:00:54 Work stuff + school stuff = me going nuts 03:01:00 I wish I had a DBA, sysadmin and designer. I can do graphic design, but I like to work on the code more these days. 03:01:08 hehe 03:01:22 yeah, I am the DBA, sysadmin, designer and developer 03:01:29 and after I finish, I'm also a maintainer 03:01:43 wow. aren't you lucky. 03:01:48 Well put all that on the resume! 03:01:55 lol 03:02:04 User Interface designer 03:02:07 I don't have a finished thing yet 03:02:14 Oh yeah.... but you will. 03:02:37 i don't even know if I should apply to other places 03:02:54 I was hoping I'd get to code in Java for 6 months 03:03:02 That would definetly boost my Java skills 03:03:08 Hey. I have to convert an anceint flat file database to ACCESS! 03:03:15 Java is a good marketable skill. 03:03:22 yes I know 03:03:24 It's on my list. 03:03:25 everyone wants Java 03:03:41 I struggled through the course last semester 03:03:45 I don't think I know java 03:03:48 They don;t even know WHY they want it though. 03:03:54 but I guess I have to write that on my resume if I want a job 03:04:05 Try rebuilding your app in ACS 4.6/Java! 03:04:16 You can learn on the job like this one. 03:04:47 I have plans to do things like rebuild things on my own 03:04:51 I don't have one thing.... 03:04:53 time 03:05:16 Yeah that is the tricky part. Luckily I can goof off and code at my "real job" most of the time. 03:05:18 Monday, Wednesday, Friday I go work on OpenACS from 9 to 6 or 7 03:05:24 I get home, grab food, then do homework 03:05:35 that school thing.... 03:05:49 Then Tuesdays and Thursdays I get to spend my whole day at school 03:06:03 I eventually plan on getting a CS degree. I should I fun! 03:06:05 if I'm lucky, we don't have a group meeting for one of my classes so I get home before 8 03:06:18 It's not all it's cut out to be 03:06:39 I suspect that if i spend an equivalent time at home programming on my own I'd probably be much smarter 03:06:49 No, but I am planning on Empire State College to give me credit for actually LEARNING stuff. 03:07:05 Exactly. I will get credit for codeing on my own at home. 03:07:26 not spellleng tho 03:07:32 lol 03:07:50 I have so many books I need to read but have no time to do that 03:07:50 anyway. good luck. 03:07:56 Gotta go eh? 03:07:58 Yeah me too. 03:08:14 (read alot of books) 03:08:16 yeah. later. 03:08:18 My C, C++, java books alone will take me a long time 03:08:27 Ok, see ya on Friday probably 03:08:31 ok. 03:08:35 maybe we can continue our heated debate later 03:08:36 :) 03:08:40 sure. 03:08:42 davb has quit 03:10:24 Psychephylax has quit 03:28:00 Psychephylax has joined #openacs 03:28:07 http://odl-skopje.etf.ukim.edu.mk/uml-help/ 03:28:07 H: http://odl-skopje.etf.ukim.edu.mk/uml-help/ from Psychephylax 03:28:23 H:| UML Tutoral 03:28:23