IRC log of openacs on 2001-09-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:27:50 [loggy]
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00:27:50 [forward.openprojects.net]
topic is: Welcome to the OpenACS Helpline | http://www.openacs.org/
00:27:50 [forward.openprojects.net]
Users on #openacs: loggy xemacs5 vinod KarlL chump rbm abbaJ AaronSw shagster
00:27:51 [ChanServ]
This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
00:47:57 [Psychephylax]
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00:48:06 [Psychephylax]
Ahoy Matey
00:54:44 [xemacs5]
ahoy
00:54:49 [Psychephylax]
Hmmm
00:54:55 [Psychephylax]
I need to fix my resume :)
00:56:13 [Psychephylax]
what to write..what to write...
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01:20:31 [davb]
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01:22:38 [davb]
Yippee! Domain based subsite patches!
01:22:53 [davb]
http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/one-file.tcl?file_id=218
01:22:53 [chump]
F: http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/one-file.tcl?file_id=218 from davb
01:23:01 [davb]
F:|Patches for domain based subsites
01:23:01 [chump]
titled item F
01:23:21 [Psychephylax]
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01:23:33 [Psychephylax]
hi dave
01:23:44 [Psychephylax]
good idea
01:23:46 [Psychephylax]
ack
01:43:33 [davb]
hi
01:44:41 [Psychephylax]
Hey
01:44:47 [Psychephylax]
I need your creative genius
01:45:01 [Psychephylax]
I need to add stuff to my resume about my current employment
01:45:13 [Psychephylax]
how do I make it sound long complex and hard to do?
01:48:25 [davb]
yeah right.
01:48:30 [Psychephylax]
what?
01:48:35 [davb]
Like I have a cool job or something...
01:48:39 [davb]
Ok.
01:48:39 [Psychephylax]
lol
01:48:50 [davb]
You have experience with multi-tier client server applications
01:48:53 [davb]
or something like that.
01:48:56 [Psychephylax]
lol
01:49:01 [Psychephylax]
what the hell is it?
01:49:13 [davb]
Multi-tier = web server, database server, web client, or something like that.
01:49:20 [Psychephylax]
·Development of a support tool using TCL, Oracle and AOLServer for use by Customer Service Representatives.
01:49:40 [Psychephylax]
Aha!
01:49:44 [davb]
Not bad. Really. I am not kidding. Look at the arsdigita layer cake.
01:50:12 [davb]
good thing markd2's not around, he had enough cookies before.
01:50:15 [Psychephylax]
·Development of a support tool using TCL, Oracle and AOLServer for use by Customer Service Representatives. Using a multi-tier client server application toolkit from ArsDigita.
01:50:22 [Psychephylax]
:!
01:51:03 [davb]
That may or may not be accurate. Don't blame me if you can't explain it.
01:51:09 [Psychephylax]
lol
01:51:45 [davb]
Just list EVERY technology ever invetned like this:
01:51:55 [Psychephylax]
bahahaha
01:52:18 [davb]
Coldfusion, ASP, Access, Filemaker Pro, PHP, Perl, CGI, Apache, IIS, Word, Excel, Sybase,
01:52:22 [davb]
etc,etc,etc.
01:52:27 [Psychephylax]
Oh, good idea
01:52:30 [Psychephylax]
I know IIS
01:52:46 [davb]
If you search for Filemaker Pro on google. you will get a million resumes all the same. They must copy them from the same place.
01:53:09 [davb]
I am sure none of those people even know what CGI stands for, how you use it, etc...
01:53:24 [Psychephylax]
lol
01:53:30 [Psychephylax]
Well
01:53:35 [davb]
But hey, what do I know. I am getting paid to build a complex application in microsoft access.
01:53:42 [Psychephylax]
CGI can either be common gateway interface or Computer Generated Imagery
01:53:56 [Psychephylax]
:)
01:54:09 [davb]
Exactly!
01:54:23 [Psychephylax]
See...I know stuff
01:54:44 [Psychephylax]
but I never actually learned stuff to the point where I can safely say "Yes, I know ____"
01:55:04 [Psychephylax]
Take Java for example
01:55:14 [davb]
Aha. All you need to know is more than the interviewer :)
01:55:18 [Psychephylax]
I had one semester of Java
01:55:32 [davb]
Right. Is this you first real-live application?
01:55:35 [Psychephylax]
On my resume I write "I know Java"
01:55:38 [Psychephylax]
yes
01:55:44 [Psychephylax]
well
01:55:50 [Psychephylax]
What do you mean "real-live application"
01:55:53 [davb]
OK, lets see what if has. Workflow? Can a manager assign a ticket to someone else?
01:55:54 [Psychephylax]
I've written apps before
01:56:09 [Psychephylax]
huh?
01:56:11 [davb]
That someone would actually use as opposed to a class assignment.
01:56:26 [Psychephylax]
well, I wrote an app that I use myself
01:56:32 [Psychephylax]
In visual basic :)
01:56:34 [davb]
If something breaks, can the manager or supervisor send it to someone else to fix it?
01:56:53 [Psychephylax]
I'm lost
01:56:58 [Psychephylax]
what are we doing now?
01:56:58 [davb]
Ah, put it on there. Check the want ads they want 10 years of Java, Perl, VB, Access SQL server, oracle, etc,etc.
01:57:06 [davb]
I am trying to make up stuff more your resume.
01:57:14 [davb]
s/more/for
01:57:14 [Psychephylax]
Stop talking like Yoda
01:57:21 [davb]
heh
01:57:22 [Psychephylax]
lol
01:57:24 [davb]
ok.
01:57:31 [Psychephylax]
It would help for you to see my resume
01:57:34 [Psychephylax]
Correct?
01:57:55 [davb]
Actually at one point my wife and I were going to rewrite people's resumes for them as a business.
01:58:01 [davb]
URL?
01:58:02 [Psychephylax]
hehehe http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Stu/nblyumbe/resume.html should do the trick
01:58:47 [davb]
Put what you have learned and what you have accomplished. Not just a list of applications you have used.
01:58:59 [davb]
Thats general advice I haven't read it yet...
01:59:07 [Psychephylax]
heh
02:00:03 [davb]
OK. Its just a list. Try to come up with more of a narrative of what you actually did. LIke a project you worked on, what you did on it, how you contributed to the business.
02:00:13 [Psychephylax]
That's the problem
02:00:29 [Psychephylax]
I haven't done that kind of stuff yet
02:00:33 [davb]
Aha, like me, you haven't actually contributed anything... :)
02:00:38 [Psychephylax]
Precisely
02:00:43 [davb]
OK. Well wing it.
02:01:01 [Psychephylax]
Like that whole Programming Languages section was from my courses I took
02:01:24 [davb]
You did setup OpenACS for which is a web application toolkit. You customized it to build an application.
02:01:54 [Psychephylax]
yeah but see, being detailed is also bad
02:02:02 [davb]
One thing I think works well is to put actual sentences in the resume for what you have done, instead of a bulleted list. But I could be wrong.
02:02:12 [Psychephylax]
Interviewers will be more interested in asking for an interview to ask what the tool does and such :)
02:02:17 [davb]
Anyway the application letter is much more important.
02:02:33 [Psychephylax]
You mean the cover letter?
02:02:42 [davb]
I also have NEVER had a technology interview. I am the most sophisticated technology person at my organization.
02:02:44 [davb]
Yes.
02:02:52 [Psychephylax]
lol
02:02:55 [Psychephylax]
I had 2
02:03:31 [davb]
You need to tell them how you can contribute to the business. I am not kidding. Each application needs a custom letter written specifically fo the job. It really works. They read that before they even throw out your resume.
02:03:45 [Psychephylax]
Well, see
02:03:51 [davb]
Tell them what you can offer them in skills, experience, etc...
02:03:57 [Psychephylax]
Our school uses an online thing
02:04:03 [davb]
Ick.
02:04:06 [Psychephylax]
you just submit your resume
02:04:17 [davb]
LIke a web form?
02:04:24 [Psychephylax]
I am not sure if you can customize your cover letters to each business
02:04:54 [Psychephylax]
lemme bring it up
02:05:08 [Psychephylax]
Hey, you gonna be here in 15 minutes?
02:05:56 [davb]
sure.
02:05:59 [Psychephylax]
ok
02:06:04 [Psychephylax]
then I'll be back in 10 or so
02:06:05 [Psychephylax]
;)
02:07:13 [xemacs5]
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02:20:07 [Psychephylax]
back
02:20:55 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax nudges davb
02:21:22 [davb]
hey!
02:21:55 [Psychephylax]
Hi :)
02:22:18 [Psychephylax]
Well, life sux
02:22:26 [Psychephylax]
I've been waiting 4 years to buy my car
02:22:33 [davb]
sorry...
02:22:33 [Psychephylax]
And it's discontinued
02:22:39 [davb]
ACK! What car?
02:22:44 [Psychephylax]
I'm very tempted to go buy one right now
02:22:48 [davb]
Hey now you can get a 1 year old one cheap!
02:22:51 [Psychephylax]
F-body cars
02:22:58 [davb]
Whats an F body?
02:22:59 [Psychephylax]
Camaro, Firebird
02:23:03 [Psychephylax]
Trans Am
02:23:05 [davb]
Really!!!!!!!
02:23:06 [davb]
WOW!
02:23:08 [Psychephylax]
yes :(
02:23:11 [davb]
That really sucks!
02:23:18 [Psychephylax]
I was dying to buy a silver Trans Am
02:23:25 [Psychephylax]
or a Pearly white one
02:23:36 [davb]
I can't believe it. So the only american car company selling rear-drive cars like that is FORD??
02:23:40 [Psychephylax]
looks like I'm stuck getting a 'stang
02:23:48 [Psychephylax]
yep
02:23:49 [davb]
Really get a used one.
02:23:56 [Psychephylax]
I don't want a used one
02:23:59 [Psychephylax]
I want a new one
02:24:02 [Psychephylax]
I want my new car smell
02:24:36 [davb]
I am still praying Dodge brings back a car like that. They cheated for Nascar using the Intrepid. Its a 4-door family car. (actually I will probably buy with with the 4-door family)
02:25:24 [davb]
Buy a vette.
02:26:30 [davb]
I am going to take off soon....
02:26:33 [Psychephylax]
lol
02:26:35 [Psychephylax]
Vett
02:26:38 [Psychephylax]
If I had the money sure
02:26:46 [Psychephylax]
Well, back to the resume business
02:27:16 [davb]
OK.
02:27:41 [Psychephylax]
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/dai/sept01/20010926_dai_camaro_firebird.xml
02:27:41 [chump]
G: http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/dai/sept01/20010926_dai_camaro_firebird.xml from Psychephylax
02:27:51 [Psychephylax]
G:| 2002 Last Year for Camaro/Firebird
02:27:51 [chump]
titled item G
02:28:10 [Psychephylax]
G: Looks like Psyche will have to settle for a horse drawn carriage this time around!
02:28:10 [chump]
commented item G
02:28:49 [davb]
ha
02:29:09 [Psychephylax]
Hmmmmm
02:29:15 [davb]
Well demand is way down due to trucks. Since when is a truck a chick magnet?
02:29:30 [Psychephylax]
Now, if I can only find 40,000,000 dollars to buy out that Quebec plant that makes the cars I can spawn off my own car company
02:29:41 [Psychephylax]
Since you can have sex in the truck bed :)
02:29:48 [davb]
Yeah, except for GM will sue you of course....
02:29:55 [Psychephylax]
They can sue my fat russian butt
02:30:22 [davb]
Anyway if you had 40M you could just buy all the 35th anniversary firebirds and sell them for a incredible markup.
02:30:28 [Psychephylax]
lol
02:30:30 [Psychephylax]
I saw one
02:30:50 [Psychephylax]
It was already bought
02:30:52 [davb]
wait. do they still make the dodge viper? Get one of those!
02:31:06 [Psychephylax]
Gimme 60 g's
02:31:16 [Psychephylax]
I might pick up a Lexus IS300
02:31:18 [Psychephylax]
lol
02:31:33 [davb]
OK. Anyway I drive a used minivan... really cool...
02:31:44 [Psychephylax]
lol
02:31:47 [Psychephylax]
Hey
02:31:57 [Psychephylax]
If you take out the back seats and soup it up, you can race it!
02:32:01 [davb]
What??
02:32:06 [Psychephylax]
I've seen it done :)
02:32:18 [davb]
Oh yeah. I was actually going to race my daytona. Put a big V8 in it...
02:32:20 [Psychephylax]
Dude in a minivan beat a fool in a corvette
02:32:29 [Psychephylax]
lol
02:32:41 [davb]
But life happened...oh well...
02:33:16 [davb]
All I need to do is get my consulting revenue up to $1000/day then I will be all set.
02:33:20 [Psychephylax]
lol
02:33:26 [Psychephylax]
yeah
02:33:33 [Psychephylax]
I don't know what I'm gonna do about a job
02:33:40 [Psychephylax]
My friends say I am "smart"
02:33:44 [Psychephylax]
I disagree
02:33:59 [davb]
they are leaving off the last 3 letters there....
02:34:10 [Psychephylax]
yes I am that as well
02:34:15 [davb]
:)
02:34:24 [Psychephylax]
I impress them with things like my use of htaccess :)
02:34:28 [davb]
Anyway. Sorry I can't help you. No jobs up here.
02:34:32 [Psychephylax]
Eh
02:34:35 [Psychephylax]
plenty around here
02:34:46 [Psychephylax]
Salomon Smith Barney, Symbol, Cablevision, Chase, Citicorp
02:34:48 [davb]
But do you really want to be a waiter?
02:35:06 [Psychephylax]
heh
02:35:21 [davb]
I would recommend not working for a bank unless you don't mind hating your job. They do pay well though.
02:36:07 [Psychephylax]
Not banks
02:36:13 [Psychephylax]
they're financial corporations :)
02:36:45 [davb]
I am trying to get together some more people around here to work on OpenACS web sites. Everyone around here builds crappy static sites still. Mayeb they throw in a perl script or some ASP but nothing like OpenACS.
02:37:15 [Psychephylax]
heh
02:37:18 [davb]
I have one guy who wants to build one, but he doesn't have any money.
02:37:19 [Psychephylax]
Well, count me out
02:37:27 [davb]
Yeah you probably had enough huh?
02:37:33 [Psychephylax]
for now...
02:38:20 [davb]
Emphasis how you learned and implemented a complex system on Oracle in a short time frame.
02:38:32 [Psychephylax]
It's a good system
02:38:37 [Psychephylax]
I see where it can truly excel
02:38:43 [Psychephylax]
But it lacks one major thing now
02:38:51 [davb]
Stop back it 6-12 months.
02:38:55 [davb]
Documentation.
02:39:01 [Psychephylax]
yes
02:39:20 [davb]
I think aD expected you to learn how it worked from the code.
02:39:29 [Psychephylax]
hah
02:39:33 [davb]
Or they just quit before the docs were done.
02:40:12 [davb]
I think once the community starts building sites with it, we'll have alot of pratical HOW-TO type documents.
02:41:18 [Psychephylax]
Well..see...problem is that there won't be many people developing with it unless there's plenty of docs for it
02:41:32 [Psychephylax]
you think I'd be developing for it still if i didn't have to?
02:41:51 [davb]
Guess not...
02:42:03 [Psychephylax]
precisely
02:42:10 [davb]
I doubt you would find a better toolkit though. Different yes.
02:42:38 [davb]
Problem is NOONE ever built any sites with it. aD only built a couple.
02:42:45 [Psychephylax]
There needs to be a multi-tiered documentation for this
02:43:14 [Psychephylax]
There should be an API doc which they _kind_ of havew
02:43:15 [davb]
Right. The high-level technical stuff is great. But we need real plain language docs that say how to do common tasks.
02:43:24 [Psychephylax]
exactly
02:43:47 [davb]
Right, but the TCL docs have a page for every command. OpenACS needs that in the docs, not available AFTER installation.
02:44:07 [davb]
That just needs to all be extracted and every proc needs a code sample.
02:44:17 [davb]
That would go a long way.
02:44:44 [Psychephylax]
yeah but even that
02:45:03 [Psychephylax]
i don't think that will be enough
02:45:06 [davb]
I should check out the docs for like Zope or something else.
02:45:19 [Psychephylax]
I don't know about most people but if they are like me, time for them is of the essense
02:45:22 [davb]
To see how they compare.
02:45:29 [Psychephylax]
Check out the java2 api
02:46:04 [davb]
That is the direction aD was trying to go I think, but they dropped the ball.
02:46:19 [Psychephylax]
yeah
02:46:29 [Psychephylax]
But even Java Docs have a flaw :)
02:46:52 [davb]
I think the plan is to have a working system that someone can install in an afternoon and get working. No point in having excellent docs for a broken system.
02:46:54 [Psychephylax]
There's a billion classes each doing something and some classes are just extensions of another one adding 2 or 3 new methods or fields
02:47:14 [davb]
Aha. So you need a way to see how it all fits together.
02:47:31 [davb]
I don't see how you can do that without looking at code.
02:47:50 [davb]
Maybe that's just me though. Not everyone learns the same way.
02:47:55 [Psychephylax]
No, I agree
02:48:01 [Psychephylax]
Looking through code is important
02:48:08 [Psychephylax]
This whole programming business is catch 22
02:48:28 [Psychephylax]
hard to learn to code if you don't know the syntax...Hard to know the syntax if you don't know what the syntax is doing
02:48:39 [davb]
Yeah. Thing is who are the docs for? The system administrator/webmaster or the programmer customizing the system for a client?
02:48:45 [Psychephylax]
And you don't know what the syntax is doing until you learn the stuff
02:48:47 [davb]
You need two sets of docs.
02:48:51 [Psychephylax]
yes
02:49:02 [davb]
Yeah so What I do is take a page, break it, then fix it.
02:49:05 [Psychephylax]
Another thing is this
02:49:09 [Psychephylax]
AD vs. OACS
02:49:19 [davb]
What about it?
02:49:27 [Psychephylax]
the documentation is so intertwined I can't tell you where I read what
02:49:47 [davb]
Right. There isn't realy any docs available at Opeanacs.org
02:49:55 [Psychephylax]
yeah
02:49:57 [davb]
except what is embeeded in the distribution.
02:50:01 [davb]
The docs are all for 3.x
02:50:03 [Psychephylax]
yeah but see problem is
02:50:21 [Psychephylax]
You guys might not know be aware of what is in AD docs
02:50:25 [Psychephylax]
things might change
02:50:39 [Psychephylax]
I go read the docs, can't find what i'm looking for because the stuff is out of sync
02:50:43 [davb]
Not for OpenACS/Tcl. They have abandonded the code base.
02:51:02 [Psychephylax]
Well, that's diff but then who's adding to those docs if something new is implemented in OACS?
02:51:05 [Psychephylax]
See wht I mean?
02:51:32 [Psychephylax]
You guys go figure it'll make everyones life easier if you have a FooBar method
02:51:35 [davb]
Well the OpenACS team is responsible. Don't worry. The docs are coming. You are really on the bleeding edge here.
02:51:44 [Psychephylax]
;)
02:51:57 [Psychephylax]
Alpha was coming along a month ago
02:52:13 [Psychephylax]
I'm patient
02:52:19 [Psychephylax]
I'm not getting on anyones case
02:52:24 [davb]
I think once OpenACS 4 is actually released alot of new features and functionality will come out.
02:52:34 [Psychephylax]
I'm just pointing out that it's hard to develop when nobody knows anyting concrete
02:52:49 [davb]
Yeah, I have been waiting since last year. Alpha was supposed to be out about one year ago.
02:52:56 [Psychephylax]
lol
02:52:57 [Psychephylax]
Nice
02:52:59 [davb]
I don't think the APIs change.
02:53:12 [davb]
Hey its still the most productive open source project I have seen.
02:53:36 [davb]
checkout freshmeat.net
02:53:45 [Psychephylax]
ok
02:53:55 [davb]
"We changed the logo. This is the sixth logo we have had. Soon we will start coding the project"
02:54:02 [davb]
:)
02:54:13 [Psychephylax]
Hmmm?
02:54:18 [davb]
Well OK. There are alot of good projects, just hard to find them in all the crap.
02:54:35 [Psychephylax]
heh
02:54:40 [davb]
There are thousands of planned projects, that never even get started planning other than applying to sourceforge.
02:54:47 [Psychephylax]
yeah
02:54:56 [Psychephylax]
I'd think having something going first is the first step
02:55:03 [Psychephylax]
going public should be the last concern
02:55:12 [davb]
Exactly.
02:55:30 [Psychephylax]
But who/what am I?
02:55:32 [davb]
Some sort fo working code. You can throw it all out, but at least have something to show.
02:55:34 [Psychephylax]
I can't even code
02:55:46 [davb]
Me neither and I have a package at the OpenACS sdm!
02:55:52 [Psychephylax]
heh
02:55:59 [Psychephylax]
My problem is that I get bored easily
02:56:03 [Psychephylax]
With doing things
02:56:03 [davb]
At least you will have the paper that says you can.
02:56:09 [Psychephylax]
lol
02:56:21 [Psychephylax]
Like someone can tell me..."Go code me a ___"
02:56:29 [davb]
That is why I am working on Edit this page and ns_xmlrpc instead of static pages.
02:56:37 [Psychephylax]
I'll say..."Ok"...I'll have all the small ideas in my head on how to do parts of the project
02:56:54 [Psychephylax]
I'll do it for a month or so...then I'll say .. "This is too boring for me"...and I go searching for something new to do
02:57:02 [davb]
exactly.
02:57:11 [davb]
I think you are just normal.
02:57:15 [Psychephylax]
heh
02:57:38 [Psychephylax]
Some of the flaws OACS has are very easily fixable
02:57:41 [davb]
Now that I slacked off on porting, my brain is refreshed an I can think clearly about how to work on static-pages again.
02:57:49 [Psychephylax]
lol
02:58:15 [Psychephylax]
When I first started doing OACS stuff, I didn't know what SQL looked like and what ADP was
02:58:23 [davb]
really. I looked at the code for about 20 mins and I said "AHA" or eureaka or woohoo!
02:58:27 [Psychephylax]
I still don't
02:58:48 [Psychephylax]
One other suggestion you guys should post on the site is this
02:59:09 [davb]
Well I read Philip and Alex's guide first. I read Tcl for Web Nerds and Sql for Web nerds and absorbed none of it. I keep refering back every time I have a question. I learn a little at a time.
02:59:14 [Psychephylax]
OACS things should be developed with: a DBA, a developer and a designer
02:59:25 [Psychephylax]
yeah same here
02:59:27 [davb]
Yeah. that would be nice.
02:59:30 [davb]
That's me!
02:59:33 [Psychephylax]
I'm not joking
02:59:35 [davb]
and you!
02:59:37 [davb]
I know.
02:59:52 [Psychephylax]
If i have oracle questions I go bug our DBA Milton or Mark if he's around....
02:59:55 [davb]
don't forget a sysadmin.
03:00:03 [Psychephylax]
THANK GOD HE TAKES COOKIES as payment
03:00:22 [Psychephylax]
Don't tell him I said that, and I'll hope he doesn't read the log ;-/
03:00:24 [davb]
he needs to flex his Oracle brain cells.
03:00:44 [Psychephylax]
it's funny though
03:00:54 [Psychephylax]
Work stuff + school stuff = me going nuts
03:01:00 [davb]
I wish I had a DBA, sysadmin and designer. I can do graphic design, but I like to work on the code more these days.
03:01:08 [Psychephylax]
hehe
03:01:22 [Psychephylax]
yeah, I am the DBA, sysadmin, designer and developer
03:01:29 [Psychephylax]
and after I finish, I'm also a maintainer
03:01:43 [davb]
wow. aren't you lucky.
03:01:48 [davb]
Well put all that on the resume!
03:01:55 [Psychephylax]
lol
03:02:04 [davb]
User Interface designer
03:02:07 [Psychephylax]
I don't have a finished thing yet
03:02:14 [davb]
Oh yeah.... but you will.
03:02:37 [Psychephylax]
i don't even know if I should apply to other places
03:02:54 [Psychephylax]
I was hoping I'd get to code in Java for 6 months
03:03:02 [Psychephylax]
That would definetly boost my Java skills
03:03:08 [davb]
Hey. I have to convert an anceint flat file database to ACCESS!
03:03:15 [davb]
Java is a good marketable skill.
03:03:22 [Psychephylax]
yes I know
03:03:24 [davb]
It's on my list.
03:03:25 [Psychephylax]
everyone wants Java
03:03:41 [Psychephylax]
I struggled through the course last semester
03:03:45 [Psychephylax]
I don't think I know java
03:03:48 [davb]
They don;t even know WHY they want it though.
03:03:54 [Psychephylax]
but I guess I have to write that on my resume if I want a job
03:04:05 [davb]
Try rebuilding your app in ACS 4.6/Java!
03:04:16 [davb]
You can learn on the job like this one.
03:04:47 [Psychephylax]
I have plans to do things like rebuild things on my own
03:04:51 [Psychephylax]
I don't have one thing....
03:04:53 [Psychephylax]
time
03:05:16 [davb]
Yeah that is the tricky part. Luckily I can goof off and code at my "real job" most of the time.
03:05:18 [Psychephylax]
Monday, Wednesday, Friday I go work on OpenACS from 9 to 6 or 7
03:05:24 [Psychephylax]
I get home, grab food, then do homework
03:05:35 [davb]
that school thing....
03:05:49 [Psychephylax]
Then Tuesdays and Thursdays I get to spend my whole day at school
03:06:03 [davb]
I eventually plan on getting a CS degree. I should I fun!
03:06:05 [Psychephylax]
if I'm lucky, we don't have a group meeting for one of my classes so I get home before 8
03:06:18 [Psychephylax]
It's not all it's cut out to be
03:06:39 [Psychephylax]
I suspect that if i spend an equivalent time at home programming on my own I'd probably be much smarter
03:06:49 [davb]
No, but I am planning on Empire State College to give me credit for actually LEARNING stuff.
03:07:05 [davb]
Exactly. I will get credit for codeing on my own at home.
03:07:26 [davb]
not spellleng tho
03:07:32 [Psychephylax]
lol
03:07:50 [Psychephylax]
I have so many books I need to read but have no time to do that
03:07:50 [davb]
anyway. good luck.
03:07:56 [Psychephylax]
Gotta go eh?
03:07:58 [davb]
Yeah me too.
03:08:14 [davb]
(read alot of books)
03:08:16 [davb]
yeah. later.
03:08:18 [Psychephylax]
My C, C++, java books alone will take me a long time
03:08:27 [Psychephylax]
Ok, see ya on Friday probably
03:08:31 [davb]
ok.
03:08:35 [Psychephylax]
maybe we can continue our heated debate later
03:08:36 [Psychephylax]
:)
03:08:40 [davb]
sure.
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03:28:07 [Psychephylax]
http://odl-skopje.etf.ukim.edu.mk/uml-help/
03:28:07 [chump]
H: http://odl-skopje.etf.ukim.edu.mk/uml-help/ from Psychephylax
03:28:23 [Psychephylax]
H:| UML Tutoral
03:28:23 [chump]
titled item H
03:28:29 [Psychephylax]
H: Learn UML in 7 days!
03:28:29 [chump]
commented item H
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Disconnected from irc.openprojects.net (ERROR :Closing Link: loggy[xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net] by forward.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for loggy[xcdfddb76.ip.ggn.net]))
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07:37:04 [asimov.openprojects.net]
topic is: Welcome to the OpenACS Helpline | http://www.openacs.org/
07:37:04 [asimov.openprojects.net]
Users on #openacs: loggy chump rbm abbaJ AaronSw shagster
07:37:04 [ChanServ]
This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
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15:12:36 [yPsychephlax]
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15:12:44 [yPsychephlax]
Morning
15:15:02 [davb]
Hey.
15:15:46 [davb]
yPsychephlax check this out:
15:15:49 [davb]
http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0002rJ&topic_id=11&topi
15:15:49 [davb]
+c=OpenACS
15:15:49 [chump]
A: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0002rJ&topic_id=11&topi from davb
15:15:57 [davb]
A: SNMP Module for AOLserver
15:15:57 [chump]
commented item A
15:16:43 [davb]
thats not yours is it?
15:23:58 [GEM]
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15:29:34 [markd2]
http://badgertronics.com/hacks/trek-script.pdf
15:29:34 [chump]
B: http://badgertronics.com/hacks/trek-script.pdf from markd2
15:29:43 [markd2]
b: annotated Enterprise pilot script
15:29:50 [davb]
ARGH! I missed everything last night.
15:29:51 [markd2]
B| annotated Enterprise pilot script
15:30:25 [davb]
B:| annotated Enterprise pilot script
15:30:29 [chump]
titled item B
15:30:38 [markd2]
need both : and |?
15:31:15 [markd2]
the annotated script is hilarous
15:33:01 [davb]
yeah. chump picks up the B: and parses the rest
15:33:14 [davb]
I am only on page 1. How was the actual show?
15:35:20 [markd2]
not bad.
15:35:28 [markd2]
I'm not going to hook up my tv to the outside world for it
15:35:32 [markd2]
could have been a lot worse
15:35:44 [markd2]
but as you'll see in the script, there's still a lot of Trek Cliches in there
15:53:40 [yPsychephlax]
heh
15:53:47 [yPsychephlax]
* yPsychephlax catches up
15:55:10 [yPsychephlax]
heh
15:55:15 [yPsychephlax]
cool...thanks for the link dave
15:58:46 [davb]
np
15:59:18 [yPsychephlax]
I'm posting up a reply to see what exactly his module does
16:01:25 [markd2]
Vlad the Emailer
16:02:10 [yPsychephlax]
hmm?
16:02:15 [yPsychephlax]
yPsychephlax is now known as Psychephylax
16:02:19 [Psychephylax]
* Psychephylax gives Mark a cookie
16:02:33 [markd2]
coookie
16:07:03 [Psychephylax]
hehe
16:08:18 [Psychephylax]
Mmmm....Oracle
16:08:40 [Psychephylax]
Mark, now that i've played with Oracle for a bit...Am I allowed to write that on my resume? lol
16:08:55 [markd2]
sure!
16:09:07 [markd2]
"extensive introduction to Oracle systems integration"
16:09:13 [markd2]
EIOSI for short
16:10:06 [Psychephylax]
rofl
16:11:15 [Psychephylax]
how about TCL and AOLServer
16:12:20 [markd2]
sure
16:13:02 [Psychephylax]
what do I write for that? lol
16:13:37 [markd2]
Experience with AOL Web Service Infrastructural components
16:13:37 [Psychephylax]
Heh, I posted on the bboard about my groups thing, and it someone replied :)
16:13:48 [Psychephylax]
Ohhhhh..sounds good lol
16:13:55 [Psychephylax]
hell, now I'd give myself a job!
16:18:11 [davb]
ack. All the docs in arsdigita.com/doc/archive are broken links today.
16:21:17 [davb]
This is a bad design: "Note(s)
16:21:17 [davb]
An attempt to reference a variable that does not exist will cause an error message to appear in the browser
16:22:09 [Psychephylax]
lol
16:22:46 [davb]
Really. There has to be a better way. I am all for testing your code before putting it in production, but I think thats a mistake.
16:22:57 [Psychephylax]
hmmm
16:22:59 [Psychephylax]
hold on
16:23:02 [Psychephylax]
something is not right
16:23:04 [Psychephylax]
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16:23:28 [Psychephylax]
hmmm
16:23:41 [Psychephylax]
Iggle wiggle jiggle niggle?
16:23:44 [markd2]
aD moved a lot of boxes out of exodus yesterday
16:23:52 [markd2]
so there will probably be some down / broken links today
16:23:57 [Psychephylax]
d'oh
16:23:58 [Psychephylax]
:)
16:24:22 [davb]
Aha. I see.
16:24:31 [davb]
no problem I have my own copy.
16:30:31 [davb]
cool. Its pretty fast.
16:31:27 [davb]
my query that is.
16:32:31 [Psychephylax]
Heh
16:32:56 [davb]
Of course I only have 5 keywords.
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16:37:08 [Psychephylax]
hehehe
16:37:23 [Psychephylax]
shiznat
16:37:30 [Psychephylax]
I forgot to purchase a 11$ money order
16:39:35 [davb]
oops
16:40:34 [Psychephylax]
yeah
16:42:44 [davb]
get a checkbook!
16:42:44 [Psychephylax]
Who the hell names a town Kissimmee
16:42:48 [Psychephylax]
I have a checkbook
16:42:56 [davb]
Oh ok.
16:42:58 [Psychephylax]
I don't like waiting 10 days for my items from ebay
16:43:09 [Psychephylax]
:-/
16:43:17 [Psychephylax]
hah...Kiss-im-me-e
16:43:18 [Psychephylax]
lol
16:43:43 [Psychephylax]
I'm gonna idle in here :P
16:44:38 [davb]
right.
16:45:12 [davb]
I cannot believe how much SQL I have learned. I thought I would never get it.
16:49:43 [davb]
cool it works.!
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17:28:10 [davb]
http://projectliberty.org/index.html
17:28:11 [chump]
C: http://projectliberty.org/index.html from davb
17:28:24 [davb]
C:| The Liberty Alliance Project
17:28:24 [chump]
titled item C
17:28:39 [davb]
C: Sun's response to MS Passport
17:28:39 [chump]
commented item C
17:30:10 [davb]
C: Members include the Apache Software Foundation, Collabnet, and O'Reilly plus many more. Hopefully they will be enough to ensure that this system keeps options open for developers and users.
17:30:11 [chump]
commented item C
17:30:19 [rbm]
uhhh. that might be interesting
17:31:00 [rbm]
http://projectliberty.org/index.html <-- The Liberty Alliance Project (anyone heard of this?)
17:31:01 [chump]
D: http://projectliberty.org/index.html from rbm
17:31:09 [rbm]
errrrr. wrong window :)
17:31:17 [davb]
heh
17:33:44 [davb]
Cool. Google indexes the chump.
17:38:59 [davb]
Anyone have any ideas on making this page easier to use and read?
17:40:38 [davb]
Psychephylax: can you give me a list of tasks that an admin should be able to find and use right away? The most important functions that need to be accessed by a site admin (from your viewpoint anyway)?
17:43:38 [rbm]
* rbm heads to class
17:51:56 [Psychephylax]
Wooohooo
17:51:58 [Psychephylax]
free cable
17:51:59 [Psychephylax]
lol
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19:18:23 [davb]
OK. Say I want to execute a pl/pgsql function from tcl. Do I have to do
19:18:34 [davb]
db_exec_plsql or can I use db_1row or something?
19:18:48 [davb]
I don't need the value from the function so I don't care where it goes.
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19:40:27 [davb]
argh,
19:41:06 [davb]
I have a variable that is either an integer or NULL. If I pass it as a bind variable to the query it breaks on NULL because NULL is quoted.
19:41:24 [davb]
Do I need a bind variable? I have no idea when I need it and when i don't.
19:51:56 [markd2]
you don't have to use bind vars
19:52:04 [davb]
ever?
19:52:09 [markd2]
they're a perfomance and security enhancement
19:52:11 [markd2]
yep
19:52:16 [davb]
Ok. It works without it.
19:52:43 [markd2]
you're free to do "select * from users where user_name='$spamhog'
19:52:57 [davb]
This is not data entered by the user in the browser, but it is passed in the URL.
19:53:36 [davb]
But is it better to use them?
19:53:48 [davb]
I would rather use them if I can make it work.
19:54:28 [markd2]
yeah - someone can doctor the url
19:54:41 [markd2]
how are you setting your null bind var?
19:54:54 [davb]
just set parent_id NULL
19:55:01 [markd2]
oracle or PG?
19:55:04 [davb]
PG
19:55:10 [markd2]
hmmm...
19:55:11 [davb]
Maybe there is something else I need to do.
19:55:19 [markd2]
I don't use PG. there is that db_null function
19:55:28 [markd2]
does that return something othe than 'NULL'?
19:55:55 [davb]
I don't know.
19:56:36 [davb]
i'll try it.
19:56:52 [markd2]
yeah, try db_null and see if that works
19:56:59 [markd2]
er, [db_null]
19:57:37 [davb]
hey it works!
19:57:40 [davb]
Cool.
19:57:44 [davb]
thanks!
19:58:28 [davb]
That sends NULL to the query instead of 'NULL'
19:59:01 [markd2]
not sure what it does to tell the truth
19:59:17 [markd2]
in oracle-land it reutrns '', which is oracle's dumb behavior
19:59:56 [davb]
right. it is supposed to return whatever works for your database in OpenACS
20:01:16 [davb]
Aha, its really a bug, but it works. I think so anwyay. db_null returns ''
20:01:44 [davb]
the pg bind variable substitution switches it to NULL i think, which is also wrong for PG.
20:02:54 [davb]
aha: "
20:03:06 [davb]
Returns an empty string, which Oracle thinks is null. This routine was
20:03:06 [davb]
79 | invented to provide an RDBMS-specific null value but doesn't actually
20:03:06 [davb]
80 | work. I (DRB) left it in to speed porting - we should really clean up
20:03:06 [davb]
81 | the code an pull out the calls instead, though.
20:04:17 [markd2]
heh
20:04:58 [davb]
the plot thickens! For starters, the new driver that allows the use of bind variables treats empty Tcl variables as NULL.
20:05:26 [markd2]
cool (I think)
20:05:30 [davb]
Aha. So it is documented. I should just leave it as "" for an integer instead of switching it to NULL
20:06:27 [davb]
Aha just leaving it an empty string works. Now I know.
20:13:06 [davb]
Hmmmm... If I delete a keyword with children I wonder what happens to them...
20:13:37 [markd2]
they get sent to the orphanage
20:14:27 [davb]
Aha. So I will have to handle the invalid links to parent_id myself? Or is there a trigger...
20:14:55 [markd2]
dunno. I'm not sure if ad_orphanage ever got implemented
20:14:58 [markd2]
maybe we need a foster-mother
20:15:19 [davb]
haha
20:16:27 [davb]
I guess I need to think about it. What should happen. I don't think they should go to the top level. Maybe have a if you delete this keyword, all these will be deleted too.
20:16:49 [markd2]
yeah
20:17:12 [davb]
So it is a bad idea to delete keywords.
20:17:38 [davb]
I just had another idea. What if someone wants to move one around?
20:17:47 [davb]
That could be sticky.
20:32:21 [davb]
http://elvin.dstc.edu.au/
20:32:22 [chump]
E: http://elvin.dstc.edu.au/ from davb
20:32:42 [davb]
E:|Elvin is a notification/messaging service with a difference
20:32:43 [chump]
titled item E
20:33:39 [davb]
E: Messaging system that uses content based routing
20:33:39 [chump]
commented item E
20:33:54 [davb]
That is totally unrelated to OpenACS, but cool anyway
20:36:21 [davb]
gotta go
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21:47:48 [rbm]
moo
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22:14:35 [xemacs5]
rbm: r u there?
22:14:43 [rbm]
yeah
22:14:44 [xemacs5]
<-- patrick@zill.net
22:14:59 [rbm]
hola patrick
22:15:00 [xemacs5]
I am trying to track down something with OpenACS and internationalization
22:15:14 [xemacs5]
hola Roberto
22:15:36 [xemacs5]
I applied hqm's patches,
22:15:37 [rbm]
What OpenACS?
22:15:40 [rbm]
3.x?
22:15:48 [xemacs5]
3.2.5
22:15:54 [xemacs5]
with hqm's patches
22:16:28 [xemacs5]
now, the 3 parts that we want to use are registration, eg. /register/
22:16:43 [xemacs5]
the pvt/ directory
22:16:45 [xemacs5]
and ecommerce
22:17:01 [xemacs5]
the patches as they are now work fine, except for ecommerce
22:17:34 [xemacs5]
I *think* what is going on is the part where the tcl interp gets confused when it sees UTF encoding
22:17:52 [xemacs5]
when it parses the adp as part of ad_return_template
22:18:03 [rbm]
ecommerce is templated. That might be part of the equation.
22:18:05 [xemacs5]
you with me so far? am I being clear enough?
22:18:28 [rbm]
yeah
22:18:34 [rbm]
but I'm not familiar with those patches.
22:19:20 [xemacs5]
I looked over the forums, and the suggested patch has to do with exchanging ns_adp_eval with ns_adp_parse -string
22:20:06 [xemacs5]
it's a little hard to track down, because I am not sure where the proc is I need to change
22:20:24 [xemacs5]
if you look at http://205.247.253.66/ecommerce you will see the error I see
22:21:19 [rbm]
oops
22:21:31 [rbm]
I see the error. It's not closing a quote.
22:21:46 [rbm]
I mean, it's closing before the right time.
22:22:18 [xemacs5]
http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0001Th
22:22:18 [chump]
F: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0001Th from xemacs5
22:22:34 [xemacs5]
if you go to the above thread
22:23:04 [xemacs5]
I am trying the suggestions that are there
22:23:22 [xemacs5]
the thing is, I know that the forum software sometimes munches punctuation
22:23:32 [xemacs5]
if you look at the uplevel part
22:23:41 [xemacs5]
it seems to barf on that
22:24:50 [rbm]
Hmmm.
22:24:52 [xemacs5]
I am not-bad with tcl, but this part has been a little confusing
22:25:23 [xemacs5]
I "balanced" the quotes, but it doesn't like that; then I tried using [ .. ] instead of quotes
22:26:12 [xemacs5]
I tried Kenny Chiang's version
22:26:16 [rbm]
What's confusing about those posts? They seem right to me.
22:26:22 [xemacs5]
which starts with "Gaizka"
22:26:34 [xemacs5]
the posts are not confusing
22:26:45 [xemacs5]
why it is not working - that is the confusing part
22:27:58 [xemacs5]
does that part seem to look right from a tcl standpoint?
22:28:10 [xemacs5]
when I look at it, it looks ok
22:28:30 [rbm]
have you checked to make sure you don't have a quote somewhere wrong?
22:28:58 [rbm]
yes, it looks right
22:29:17 [xemacs5]
I have indeed, but will triple-check it now
22:32:46 [xemacs5]
eval "uplevel { ns_write "$http_header [ns_startcontent -type "$mimetype"] [ns_adp_eval -parser\ fancy {$template}]" }"
22:33:27 [xemacs5]
that is the cache_p if stmt
22:33:40 [xemacs5]
eval "uplevel { ns_return 200 "$mimetype" [ns_adp_eval -parser fancy {$template}] }"
22:33:45 [xemacs5]
that is the else stmt
22:34:06 [xemacs5]
the quotes are a little confusing
22:34:58 [xemacs5]
nut do appear to balance
22:35:05 [xemacs5]
but
22:36:23 [rbm]
do you really need that \ there?
22:36:54 [xemacs5]
the \ is in the emacs buffer, I cut and pasted from the xterm, sorry
22:37:11 [xemacs5]
it is not in the actual code
22:37:21 [rbm]
Notice that you have "$mimetype" but in the bboard it only says $mimetypeo
22:37:36 [rbm]
I need to leave. bbiab
22:37:53 [xemacs5]
ok, thanks
22:51:02 [davb]
davb has joined #OpenACS
22:53:23 [wtem]
wtem has joined #openacs
22:53:53 [wtem]
wow, i'm actually hanging out here during the day... haha
22:54:50 [wtem]
anyone have any experience with the oracle version of the function content.stringtoblob?
22:55:49 [xemacs5]
sorry, no, but what behavior are you seeing?
22:56:47 [wtem]
i need to figure out what i should stick in the blob_loc argument
22:57:03 [wtem]
if there is something funky cuz its a blob or not
22:57:49 [wtem]
i'm basically tring to stick a varchar value in the cr_revisions.content column from within a function
22:58:35 [wtem]
and content.string_to_blob calls for string and blob_loc parameters...
22:58:54 [xemacs5]
the ad doesn't seem to have any docs on the parameters yet
22:59:33 [wtem]
nope, that's why i'm here
22:59:45 [wtem]
and i haven't found any calls to it either
22:59:57 [wtem]
so i can't really learn from example either
23:00:17 [xemacs5]
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:6MwYcfFawSo:www.oradoc.com/ora816/appdev.816/a76940/adl09p11.htm++blob_loc&hl=en
23:00:17 [chump]
G: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:6MwYcfFawSo:www.oradoc.com/ora816/appdev.816/a76940/adl09p11.htm++blob_loc&hl=en from xemacs5
23:00:26 [xemacs5]
you could try that
23:00:26 [wtem]
thanks
23:01:27 [xemacs5]
according to that page, it seems that blob_loc is a bind variable
23:01:38 [xemacs5]
but still doesn't have a lot of info on it
23:01:43 [xemacs5]
they do have code samples though
23:02:33 [xemacs5]
does that help at all?
23:08:46 [wtem]
not really giving me the info i need...
23:08:58 [wtem]
i think i'll bug stas over at aD
23:09:44 [xemacs5]
that might work too
23:09:55 [xemacs5]
:-)
23:22:11 [davb]
wtem: are you using ACS or OpenACS?
23:22:38 [xemacs5]
sounds like he is using the Java ACS version
23:25:42 [wtem]
talked to stas
23:25:54 [wtem]
openacs
23:26:16 [xemacs5]
ok, thought you might be using the ad java libs
23:26:38 [wtem]
nah, there is some java in classic versions of acs and openacs 4 oracle
23:28:25 [wtem]
as i suspected from the doc that people linked to
23:29:04 [wtem]
to use string_to_blob, you have to initialize a bind variable with a blob value for the blob_loc...
23:29:19 [wtem]
however, a simpler workaround for what i wanted to do was
23:29:41 [wtem]
to just uses the the "i" view of the content type, in this case images
23:30:01 [wtem]
oh yeah, the text column of the "i" view
23:30:37 [wtem]
it has a on insert trigger which does the right thing...
23:31:28 [wtem]
in the process of implementing it, will let you know if it ended up working
23:35:36 [xemacs5]
wouldn't happen to be familiar with the internationalization patches, would you?
23:41:52 [wtem]
nope, sorry
23:42:21 [wtem]
you can't use an "update" with an "i" view
23:43:07 [wtem]
but, i was being dumb, i just had to use the cr_revision.new function (an overloaded function) with the text parameter
23:44:10 [wtem]
yep, it works
23:44:12 [wtem]
wahoo
23:49:15 [xemacs5]
congrats