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00:06:44 <forward.openprojects.net> Users on #openacs: loggy markd2 AaronSw abbaJ KarlL rbm chump shagster 
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00:07:24 <markd2> loggy loggy fo foggy bananna fanna bo boggy. me mi mo moggy.  loggy!
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05:12:29 <wtem> howdy
05:13:04 <wtem> anyone available for some pl-pgsql debugging fun?
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05:15:00 <wtem> hey chump
05:15:05 <wtem> hah
05:16:58 <wtem> damn
05:17:47 <wtem> after fixing this bit of pl-pgsql i'm basically done with the photo-album...
05:18:22 <wtem> and noone's around to help me fix what is probably a stupid mistake on my part, damn
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10:03:35 <alekhine> hello
10:07:20 <alekhine> when will openacs go with java?
10:07:33 <alekhine> or perhaps PHP?
10:07:44 <alekhine> tcl is a strange language for webdevelopment
10:21:28 <ola> OpenACS won't go with java anytime soon but ACS 4.6/5.0 is written in java and they will release a postgres version in October, I believe.
10:25:40 <ola> why do you think tcl is strange for web developement?
10:31:25 <alekhine> re
10:32:36 <alekhine> well, because tcl was never meant for webdevelopment and therefore lacks functionalities to do complex stuff
10:32:42 <alekhine> like regular expression
10:36:50 <alekhine> the way arsdigita validate email addresses is so primitive
10:39:58 <ola> aha. you mean the regexp?
10:40:54 <alekhine> yes
10:42:39 <alekhine> ACS with PHP would be cool
10:43:01 <alekhine> I am having trouble with the install of the new ACS with Java
10:43:31 <alekhine> my motivation dropped
10:43:43 <alekhine> now I'm looking for a new framework :)
10:43:55 <alekhine> you guys happen to know another good framework?
10:47:40 <ola> dunno a thing about ACS java, sorry. noone's stopping you from porting ACS to PHP;-) 
10:48:01 <alekhine> can't do that on my own :)
10:48:09 <alekhine> I'm also new to ACS :)
11:13:13 <ola> I'm glad I found ACS/OpenACS so I never have to look for another framework:-)
11:13:29 <ola> It works well enough for me...
11:15:27 <alekhine> ola, how flexible is ACS/OpenACS?
11:15:38 <alekhine> can you show a sample site that you've done?
11:16:19 <ola> hmm. I've only done one site thus far: infogettable.net
11:16:28 <alekhine> okay, checking :)
11:16:55 <ola> let's play a game:-)
11:17:02 <alekhine> :)
11:17:41 <alekhine> did it help decreasing the development time?
11:17:50 <alekhine> and did you have to tweak a lot?
11:18:40 <ola> well, I couldn't have done it without OpenACS or a similar tool.
11:19:15 <ola> I tweaked it somewhat but not so much.
11:19:38 <alekhine> cool
11:19:42 <alekhine> well
11:19:47 <alekhine> the page doesn't work well
11:20:09 <alekhine> but that's probably because you didn't spend enough to on tweaking :)
11:20:21 <ola> this is done with OpenACS 3.2.5. - 4.0 is much more interesting.
11:20:45 <alekhine> ola, is it easy to install openacs?
11:20:49 <ola> what doesn't work?
11:21:13 <alekhine> ola, try to search in the forum
11:21:14 <ola> fairly easy. takes about a day.
11:21:51 <alekhine> :)
11:22:05 <ola> ok. things could have been tweaked better...
11:23:47 <alekhine> have you ever write some functionalities upon the default features?
11:24:04 <alekhine> and how does that go?
11:24:07 <alekhine> flexible?
11:24:08 <alekhine> :)
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11:26:41 <ola> yes I wrote a whole module for backgammon using a range of useful built-in procedures.
11:28:53 <ola> darn. noone wants to play with me:-(
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11:37:29 <alekhine> :)
11:37:33 <alekhine> wrong button :)
11:39:57 <ola> if you know how to play backgammon you can go to the "player pool" and choose to play against me.
11:40:19 <ola> you'll have to register with my site, though.
11:41:33 <ola> the game is turn based, so I need your correct email to send notifications when it's your turn.
11:44:51 <ola> (or icq#)
12:24:31 <alekhine> :)
12:24:32 <alekhine> re
12:24:33 <alekhine> sorry
12:24:36 <alekhine> I don't know how to play
12:24:42 <alekhine> and I'm not in the mood :)
12:24:55 <alekhine> doing a new site for a hotel
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13:09:33 <shagster> moo
13:10:24 <xemacs5> moo to you toooooo
13:10:33 <shagster> * shagster steals rbm's call, hopes it is not a GPL violation
13:11:33 <xemacs5> I have an openacs install that is giving me some problems
13:11:45 <shagster> what version of openacs?
13:11:48 <davb> davb has joined #openacs
13:12:00 <shagster> morning davb
13:12:27 <xemacs5> 3.2.5, with the internationalization patches
13:12:39 <xemacs5> specifically the ecommerce module
13:12:47 <shagster> Hmm, I haven't tried that international.... patches...
13:14:03 <xemacs5> that's ok, I will hang around some more... everything else about the software is working properly
13:15:32 <ola> I thought the internationalization (phew) was in aolserver ad patches.
13:15:53 <xemacs5> I am using the patches from Henry Minsky
13:16:13 <ola> patches to acs?
13:16:49 <xemacs5> yes, see www.ai.mit.edu/users/hqm/openacs, i think that is the proper url
13:20:00 <ola> that url is wrong.
13:20:37 <xemacs5> ok, hold on, will get the right one
13:22:04 <xemacs5> replace users with people in the above URL
13:25:25 <xemacs5> got it now?
13:25:44 <ola> Yes. that reminds me, I must learn japanese some day.
13:28:11 <xemacs5> I would like to learn it as well, but haven't found the time yet
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14:11:16 <markd2> âllo
14:17:10 <xemacs5> hello
14:17:45 <xemacs5> hi Mark, do you have any familiarity with internationalization issues?
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14:28:11 <davb> * davb is having fun converting flat file database to relational...
14:29:13 <shagster> davb has a wierd definition of "fun"
14:32:10 <davb> I am trying to convince myself its fun. Luckily it has infinite duplication with no consistency
14:39:29 <ola> how far would you get on a 10GB/month transfer limit with an OACS4 site?
14:39:45 <ola> enough for a small site? a big site?
14:39:52 <xemacs5> about 10000 MB's
14:40:04 <ola> hehe
14:40:43 <davb> Depends, alot of graphics and file downloads? I think 10GB is like 56kbs average over 1 month. 
14:40:57 <xemacs5> ok, really it depends on how much graphics you have
14:41:17 <xemacs5> one site I have done work for has a HUGE 125k home page
14:41:27 <xemacs5> and they do about 1GB per month traffic
14:41:53 <xemacs5> another site has smaller graphics, they do about 5GB due to much higher traffic
14:42:40 <davb> You have to figure out have many visitors/page views and the average page size. 
14:43:15 <ola> xemacs5: how many hits are we talking about, per day?
14:43:23 <xemacs5> you can get a decent amount of users and traffic with 10GB
14:43:34 <xemacs5> I don't have access to their logs, so I can't tell you that
14:44:07 <xemacs5> if you have 10GB transfer, you can certainly get started and run for a few months
14:44:16 <ola> cool
14:44:30 <xemacs5> when a customer's site of mine got slashdotted, they sent out 2GB in about 14 hours
14:45:05 <ola> my oh my.
14:45:05 <davb> Get a host that doens't rip you off if you go over.
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14:46:14 <shagster> I still do it by sustained usage, this GB month is BS in my book
14:46:21 <Psychephylax> ahoy maties
14:46:42 <davb> hey Psychephylax
14:46:46 <xemacs5> full disclosure:  xemacs5 = patrick@zill.net = www.zill.net, which does hosting of Openacs
14:46:47 <shagster> Hey
14:47:26 <Psychephylax> hey dave and others
14:47:44 <ola> hey psyche
14:47:47 <shagster> * shagster does hosting too, I'll hosting anything :)
14:50:27 <ola> xemacs5: I wondered who you were. guess I asked at the right moment;-)
14:51:26 <xemacs5> :-)  
14:54:59 <Psychephylax> ugh...*reminds himself of what he has to figure out now*...permissions 
14:54:59 <xemacs5> now you know...
14:55:36 <Psychephylax> anyone have that "Permissions tediously explained" link handy?
15:00:06 <Psychephylax> this: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog is broken
15:00:17 <Psychephylax> or at least slow to respond
15:00:31 <ola> the price per transfered GB seems fairly standardized here among co-location companies. 
15:00:41 <davb> davb has quit
15:00:51 <ola> about 10$/GB. damn those cartels..
15:01:22 <ola> but wait! this seems cheap.
15:02:00 <davb> davb has joined #openacs
15:02:20 <Psychephylax> lol
15:02:30 <xemacs5> my charges are $5 per GB over included bandwidth
15:02:49 <davb> not bad.
15:02:52 <xemacs5> expect bandwidth charges to drop further
15:03:04 <xemacs5> in maybe 6 months, my prediction anyways
15:03:22 <ola> psyche: http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/download/permissions-notes-vadim.html?version_id=229
15:03:47 <davb> Psychephylax
15:03:50 <Psychephylax> thanks Ola
15:03:51 <davb> Works ok for me.
15:03:59 <Psychephylax> yeah it timed out the first time
15:04:12 <davb> Crappy ISP.
15:07:12 <Psychephylax> mine? or the hosting one?
15:07:33 <davb> Mine. The hosting one.
15:07:48 <Psychephylax> oh ok
15:08:06 <davb> Also slow machine.
15:08:47 <davb> My pentium 200 server with 32mb ram can serve up static pages alot faster than the 500Mhz AMD 256MB ram OpenACS machine.
15:10:26 <davb> Aha. I am out of RAM according to top. Must be aolserver.
15:10:28 <Psychephylax> hehe
15:10:40 <Psychephylax> time to drop down to single user and back :)
15:11:12 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax enjoys the tingling superior caffeeinated taste of Dr. Pepper
15:17:25 <davb> * davb wonders if its AOLserver 3.2+ad12 and nsvhr.
15:17:42 <davb> I have 20 nsd's running and 7 postmasters.
15:18:02 <davb> I think its time to spring for some more RAM.
15:19:11 <ola> there's a memory leak in ad12, I think.
15:19:12 <Psychephylax> how much do you have?
15:19:48 <Psychephylax> AHA!
15:19:57 <Psychephylax> the contexts are hierarchial
15:20:38 <ola> huh?
15:20:50 <Psychephylax> I'm reading the permissions thing
15:20:59 <ola> ah.
15:21:03 <Psychephylax> There is a top level object
15:21:08 <Psychephylax> and all other objects are it's children
15:21:33 <Psychephylax> And if you grant someone read on that object, they can automatically read/write/etc on all the children
15:22:03 <Psychephylax> And of course, if you go down the tree and grand permissions there, you can read/write/etc below but not above
15:22:29 <Psychephylax> Now this dude is speaking my language: "As Rafael Schloming
15:22:30 <Psychephylax> put it so aptly, Oracle can't deal with hierarchies for shit. "
15:22:40 <Psychephylax> We need more textbooks like that
15:22:41 <ola> heh
15:23:17 <ola> we need more people like Rafael Schloming.
15:23:23 <Psychephylax> indeed
15:23:49 <davb> If I still all the nsds will I get the RAM back from a memoery leak?
15:24:15 <davb> s/still/KILL
15:24:15 <ola> and of course, there's inheritance.......
15:24:53 <davb> right, an object can inherit its permissions frm the parent, or not.
15:25:03 <ola> no, it's lost in a black hole;-)
15:25:08 <Psychephylax> Dave, it should get rid of the memory leak but you gotta wait until the OS reclaims the memory
15:25:43 <davb> Aha. I wonder how long that takes. So that is the secret of "You computer will be restarted now" 
15:26:03 <Psychephylax> lol
15:26:17 <Psychephylax> Dave, I usually drop down to single user mode, then exit it
15:26:39 <Psychephylax> frees up all the memory, kills all the zombies and such
15:26:58 <Psychephylax> it's like brushing teeth without having to go to the dentist :)
15:27:13 <Psychephylax> dentist = evil = reboot/shutdown
15:27:44 <Psychephylax> 11:36AM  up 64 days,  1:33, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
15:27:46 <Psychephylax> :)
15:29:42 <Psychephylax> aha
15:29:47 <Psychephylax> I need to define my own privileges
15:33:20 <ola> grant yourself write on /bin/laden and erase it... 
15:33:56 <Psychephylax> i'd rather have the execute one
15:35:08 <Psychephylax> anyone good with sed?
15:36:58 <Psychephylax> i want to edit the output and replace "file or directory" with "terrorist"
15:38:30 <davb> argh. My server won't restart. It closed, but its not starting back up. 
15:38:35 <davb> AOLserver that is.
15:38:43 <Psychephylax> did you drop down to single user mode?
15:39:05 <davb> nope. 
15:39:09 <davb> Perhaps I should. 
15:39:15 <davb> Too bad I don't know what to type...
15:39:17 <Psychephylax> indeed you should
15:39:20 <Psychephylax> shutdown now
15:39:25 <Psychephylax> then when it exits
15:39:27 <Psychephylax> type "exit"
15:39:33 <Psychephylax> to go back to multi
15:39:59 <davb> I am accessing this machine remotely. I suspect that won't work.
15:40:09 <Psychephylax> heh
15:40:14 <Psychephylax> i suspect so either
15:40:21 <Psychephylax> how remote is it?
15:40:33 <davb> 15 miles or so. 
15:40:36 <Psychephylax> heh
15:40:42 <Psychephylax> you can always do shutdown -r now
15:40:44 <davb> The other AOLserver restarted fine.
15:41:58 <davb> Weird. The two other servers restarted fine. The OpenACS one is the only one that's screwed up.
15:42:16 <Psychephylax> any errors?
15:42:36 <davb> Not in the log. It says it shut down. But nothing else every goes into the log.
15:42:52 <Psychephylax> hmmm
15:42:56 <Psychephylax> just reboot it then
15:43:27 <chump> chump has quit
15:43:38 <davb> There it goes
15:43:54 <davb> it was up for 45 days or so.
15:44:26 <chump> chump has joined #openacs
15:45:57 <ola> * ola prays for davb's server to boot
15:46:01 <davb> oh yeah, it was a memory leak
15:46:10 <davb> 49MB used.
15:48:20 <ola> you might bypass the leak by setting minthreads = maxthreads
15:49:20 <davb> probably not a bad idea. I am going to upgrade to aolserver 3.3 with jerry's patch.
15:49:58 <davb> Where do I put that in my config file?
15:50:12 <davb> And is 50 too many?
15:50:41 <ola> In ns/server/servername I think
15:51:39 <ola> but you don't need that with 3.3ad13
15:51:51 <davb> Ok.
15:51:57 <ola> only 3.2ad12
15:53:42 <davb> Has anyone used 3.3+ad12 with the nsvhr patch?
15:53:50 <davb> 3.3+ad13 that is.
15:55:43 <ola> yes, I have tried it out. not in production, though.
15:56:16 <davb> I will let you know.
15:56:26 <ola> ok
15:57:36 <Psychephylax> aha
15:58:34 <ola> that's the way, aha, aha......
15:58:38 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax puts out a cookie for Mark...
15:58:48 <Psychephylax> He'll be here shortly
15:58:53 <davb> argh! I can't download aolserver because arsdigita.com redirects my to HTTPS and I am in lynx.
15:59:05 <Psychephylax> d'oh :(
16:00:05 <ola> davd: I can email it to you.
16:00:17 <davb> Thanks. dave@thedesignexperience.org
16:00:30 <Psychephylax> This "Permissions Tediously Explained" doc is good...now it actually makes sense to me
16:01:08 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax recalls his Set Theory knowledge
16:01:31 <Psychephylax> I remember sitting in class saying "When the hell am I ever going to use that....
16:01:38 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax realizes - The time has come
16:03:01 <alekhine> later guys
16:03:05 <alekhine> alekhine has quit
16:04:40 <Psychephylax> What does "nuke this group" do?
16:05:52 <davb> I think it removes all traces of the group from the database.
16:06:32 <Psychephylax> hmmm
16:07:03 <Psychephylax> Ok, I'm gonna write an e-mail to this guy asking him to rewrite every Computer Science book I have read
16:07:14 <Psychephylax> With his explanations, stuff is actually VERY clear
16:07:16 <Psychephylax> The above script would never get around to deleting this entry because it had to loop through a gazillion rows in
16:07:16 <Psychephylax> the humongous acs_object_party_privilege_map view. 
16:07:28 <Psychephylax> makes sense to me!
16:07:57 <Psychephylax> The textbook way of saying the same thing:
16:09:45 <Psychephylax> This code is not the recommended way of executing a deletion due to the time constraints of the database
16:09:51 <ola> grr. the darn thing is too big to attach..what to do?
16:10:00 <Psychephylax> how big is it?
16:10:14 <ola> ~3400
16:10:24 <Psychephylax> 3.4 gigs?
16:10:37 <Psychephylax> damn!
16:10:39 <davb> I think rbm has it somewhere..
16:10:50 <Psychephylax> Is it 3.4 megs?
16:10:53 <davb> Really? You can't attach it? It pays you have your own mail server.
16:10:59 <ola> no, megs
16:11:13 <Psychephylax> well, 3400 megs = 3.4 gigs :)
16:11:21 <Psychephylax> approximately of course
16:11:25 <Psychephylax> stupid metric system 
16:11:28 <ola> 3.4 MB
16:11:32 <Psychephylax> ok
16:11:35 <Psychephylax> give me the link
16:12:53 <ola> it's my friggin webmail..
16:13:14 <Psychephylax> you want 3.3+ad13
16:13:16 <davb> Run you own. Qmail is cool.
16:13:19 <davb> Yes, please.
16:13:22 <Psychephylax> k
16:13:34 <ola> I don't know how to attach in emacs client
16:14:43 <davb> my neither I use mutt.
16:15:20 <Psychephylax> here ya go -> http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Stu/nblyumbe/aolserver-src.tar.gz
16:15:53 <Psychephylax> works?
16:16:19 <ola> hey, fast server!
16:16:19 <davb> yippee!
16:16:35 <Psychephylax> :)
16:16:39 <Psychephylax> OC4
16:16:41 <Psychephylax> ack
16:16:42 <Psychephylax> OC3
16:16:57 <ola> ~84kB/sec
16:17:01 <Psychephylax> pshhh
16:17:06 <Psychephylax> my cable modem goes that fast
16:17:07 <Psychephylax> lol
16:17:14 <Psychephylax> uploading
16:17:20 <ola> sorry...~84kb/sec
16:17:21 <davb> * davb hates Psychephylax's cable modem too.
16:17:30 <Psychephylax> :)
16:17:39 <Psychephylax> ok
16:17:46 <Psychephylax> I read permissions tediously explained
16:17:48 <davb> Mine is still DLing, Cheap DSL.
16:17:51 <Psychephylax> got more permissions info?
16:18:26 <davb> The rest of the secrets are encodeding the the code. Hey when you figure it out, right a howto for the rest of us :)
16:19:35 <Psychephylax> right
16:19:36 <Psychephylax> :P
16:19:44 <ola> * ola wonders when his DocBook howto will be done
16:20:17 <davb> The O'Reilly docbook book is free online now.
16:21:34 <davb> 12KB/s. Cheapskates. They actually are limiting the bandwidth.
16:21:43 <Psychephylax> who?
16:21:48 <davb> DSL ISP.
16:21:50 <ola> yes. it's quite good, but too extensive
16:22:02 <davb> Cool. I didn't know if you had read it.
16:24:49 <Psychephylax> ok
16:25:00 <Psychephylax> You guys are familiar with /admin stuff at all?
16:25:22 <davb> in what way? I have used the pages, but not looked at the code.
16:25:52 <Psychephylax> ok
16:25:58 <Psychephylax> that's what I need help with..the pages
16:26:20 <Psychephylax> I see: Site Map, Groups, Group Types, Relational Segments and Relationship types
16:26:46 <ola> I hope Jerry hasn't run out of patches.. I downloaded a few erlier....
16:26:49 <ola> :-)
16:27:12 <davb> I think you can simplify that to just what you application needs. That is the full-features engineer interface. 
16:27:19 <davb> ola: I took the last one.
16:27:55 <Psychephylax> Now, correct me if I'm wrong but the default ACS install has 2 parties
16:28:00 <Psychephylax> administrator and main site member
16:29:43 <davb> sounds good to me.
16:29:47 <Psychephylax> Dave, what's the difference between "Group types" and "Groups"
16:30:11 <davb> no idea. Probably an extra layer of permissions.
16:30:30 <davb> So that you can have two groups inside a group type with similar basic permssions.
16:30:56 <davb> The group system is very complex. The whole ACS is overengineered for the worst possible case application.
16:31:38 <davb> But it is flexible and powerful. The impossible takss are possible and the simple tasks are incredibly complex.
16:31:42 <Psychephylax> yeah they should have given a slimmer interface depending on needs
16:31:53 <davb> That's your job :)
16:32:05 <Psychephylax> heh
16:32:11 <Psychephylax> so how do I define a group?
16:32:17 <davb> We need a war stories bboard for OpenACS 4.
16:32:47 <ola> war stories?
16:33:09 <Psychephylax> ok
16:33:11 <davb> Yeah like all the hell you went through actually building a site. Pratical experiences.
16:33:19 <Psychephylax> yeah
16:33:23 <Psychephylax> that's a good idea
16:33:42 <Psychephylax> this way you can look at the info the other person read to get an idea of things
16:33:46 <til> Psychephylax: to define a group first add a group type
16:33:53 <Psychephylax> What is the "Application Groups"?
16:33:54 <til> and then add a group of this type
16:34:23 <til> in a group type you can define attributes that groups of this type will have
16:34:47 <Psychephylax> ok, so I just added a supervisors group
16:35:20 <Psychephylax> ok
16:35:26 <Psychephylax> and defined a group SNMP Supervisor
16:35:49 <Psychephylax> til, can you explain the attribute things a bit?
16:35:54 <til> i think you need to decide which group type you new group belongs to
16:37:28 <Psychephylax> so I have (Group) <-- Supervisor (Group type) <--SNMP Supervisors (group)
16:37:31 <til> add a group type - you will see that there you can define attributes that can be used to characterize groups of this type
16:38:41 <Psychephylax> like what kind of attributes?
16:39:12 <til> i think if there will only be one group of this type and you dont need attributes then you could just make your snmp supervisors a group of a pre-existing type
16:40:26 <Psychephylax> i'm going to have: manager, supervisor, user, admin 
16:40:31 <Psychephylax> admin is the openacs default
16:40:44 <Psychephylax> user is the openacs regular member
16:40:52 <Psychephylax> The manager is above a supervisor 
16:41:08 <davb> Cool 3.3+ad13 nsvhr works!
16:41:12 <Psychephylax> And the special privileges of supervisors and managers is that they can create users
16:43:25 <til> ah, group types can have child group types, like inherited classes. quite confusing at the beginning. the default group type "Groups" has a child "Application Groups"
16:44:05 <Psychephylax> right
16:44:11 <Psychephylax> What is this Application Groups?
16:44:24 <til> don't know what Application Groups is for
16:44:34 <davb> Look at it. Does it have any extra attributes?
16:44:46 <til> define a new group type and you will see what is meant by attributes (i am still thinking for an example)
16:44:47 <Psychephylax> Not sure how to look that up
16:44:57 <davb> Click on it.
16:44:57 <Psychephylax> i did define a new group type
16:45:02 <Psychephylax> Supervisor
16:45:24 <Psychephylax> oh i c
16:45:27 <Psychephylax> Attributes:
16:45:33 <Psychephylax> Group name
16:45:34 <til> til has quit
16:45:48 <til> til has joined #openacs
16:46:01 <markd2> markd2 has joined #openacs
16:46:05 <Psychephylax> aha!
16:46:24 <Psychephylax> You must have been far away from the computer...this cookie *points* has been waiting for you for quiet a while
16:46:32 <markd2> I felt a disturbance in the force
16:46:50 <Psychephylax> :)
16:46:57 <Psychephylax> I smelled the rum 
16:47:03 <markd2> heh
16:47:06 <Psychephylax> Ahoy Matey!
16:47:13 <markd2> arrrrrrrrr
16:47:25 <Psychephylax> til, I see what attributes are used for
16:47:46 <Psychephylax> here's a question for you
16:47:56 <Psychephylax> I am not quiet clear on this
16:48:26 <Psychephylax> Do I define my groups like Supervisor, Manager using sql code in my package-create.sql script or do I do this through OpenACS 
16:48:46 <Psychephylax> or can I technically do both...
16:49:21 <markd2> if ya want the package to be reusable, do it in the sql script
16:49:34 <markd2> e.g. you deploy your package in a production environemt, or sell it to someone
16:49:57 <markd2> or donate your smntp pacakge to openacs :-)
16:50:28 <Psychephylax> ok
16:50:57 <ola> * ola wonders why AD has started running downloads via https
16:50:58 <Psychephylax> Well, for now, I'll use the simpler UI 
16:51:25 <markd2> they've moved our intranet to https only / more frequent logins
16:51:33 <markd2> so the download may have gotten sucked under that umbrella
16:51:52 <markd2> maybe drop the webmonsters a note - I can imagine they don't want to be serving big files with https
16:51:53 <ola> aha
16:52:37 <Psychephylax> quick question 
16:52:41 <Psychephylax> I have a group
16:52:44 <Psychephylax> Supervisor
16:53:08 <Psychephylax> But i'm not exactly sure what I check against to see if a memeber is in that group
16:53:13 <Psychephylax> How can I find this info out?
16:53:30 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax flashes a cookie to peak Mark's interest
16:53:50 <Psychephylax> s/memeber/member
16:55:49 <davb> You don't.
16:56:11 <Psychephylax> Then how am I supposed to check to see if the user belongs to that group before serving him a page?
16:56:13 <davb> You grant permissions on an object to that group.
16:56:30 <davb> Then do ad_permission_p  to see if that user has permission.
16:56:36 <Psychephylax> ok
16:56:41 <Psychephylax> how do I grant him permissions?
16:56:48 <Psychephylax> in the user interface that is
16:56:48 <davb> Aha. 
16:57:10 <davb> I don't know if there is a UI for that.
16:57:26 <davb> I think each package has its own UI for permissions.
16:57:33 <Psychephylax> hmmmm
16:57:54 <davb> You should just do it all in an SQL file. What if your server dies and you need to reinstall the package.
16:58:52 <Psychephylax> well, I am not 100% sure on how to do it in an sql file yet either
16:59:04 <davb> You need the acs_permissions.grant_permission
16:59:06 <ola> davb: do you know that, with new nsvhr, it is now possible to add/remove hosts without restarting the server?
16:59:08 <Psychephylax> i was hoping that I can get some insight on how ACS does it first, then do it in an SQL file myself
16:59:17 <davb> ola: no. thats cool.
16:59:33 <ola> I think the permissions stuff is centralized
16:59:39 <davb> I should read the doc for something before running it on my production server huh?
17:00:05 <KarlL> KarlL has quit
17:00:12 <KarlL> KarlL has joined #openacs
17:01:49 <markd2> awww, live on the edge!
17:01:53 <davb> Psychephylax: "To give a user permission to perform a particular operation on a particular object you call acs_permission.grant_permission like this: 
17:01:53 <davb>     acs_permission.grant_permission (
17:01:53 <davb>       object_id => some_object_id,
17:01:53 <davb>       grantee_id => some_party_id,
17:01:53 <davb>       privilege => 'some_privilege_name'
17:01:54 <davb>       );
17:01:57 <davb>  
17:02:08 <davb> thats in doc/permissions.html
17:02:41 <Psychephylax> hmmm
17:02:49 <Psychephylax> ok
17:02:50 <Psychephylax> I have that
17:03:06 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax shows his code
17:03:14 <Psychephylax> declare 
17:03:14 <Psychephylax>         v_group_id      integer; 
17:03:14 <Psychephylax>         default_context acs_objects.object_id%TYPE; 
17:03:14 <Psychephylax> begin 
17:03:20 <Psychephylax>  default_context := acs.magic_object_id('default_context'); 
17:03:20 <Psychephylax>         select count(group_id) into v_group_id 
17:03:20 <Psychephylax>         from groups 
17:03:32 <Psychephylax> where group_name='Manager'; 
17:03:32 <Psychephylax>  
17:03:32 <Psychephylax>         if v_group_id = 0 then 
17:03:32 <Psychephylax>                 v_group_id :=acs_group.new (group_name => 'Manager'); 
17:03:32 <Psychephylax>         else 
17:03:33 <Psychephylax>                 select group_id into v_group_id from groups where group_name='Manager'; 
17:03:35 <Psychephylax>         end if; 
17:03:58 <Psychephylax> acs_privilege.create_privilege ( 'manager' ); 
17:03:58 <Psychephylax>         acs_privilege.add_child( 'manager' ); 
17:03:58 <Psychephylax>  
17:03:58 <Psychephylax>         acs_permission.grant_permission( default_context, v_group_id, 'manager'); 
17:03:58 <Psychephylax> end; 
17:04:09 <davb> * davb goes to lunch
17:04:33 <Psychephylax> d'oh
17:05:54 <Psychephylax> See, shouldn't my code cause ACS to show that there are Managers when I go to Groups or Group types?
17:15:46 <Psychephylax> hmmmm
17:17:38 <davb> not sure.
17:18:29 <talli> talli has joined #openacs
17:18:29 <Psychephylax> they are being stored
17:18:34 <Psychephylax> Hey talli 
17:18:36 <talli> hey
17:18:37 <davb> Hi talli.
17:18:57 <talli> whoa. xemacs is here! call RMS!!! this is GPL land, buddy!
17:19:07 <talli> hey daev
17:19:15 <Psychephylax> lol
17:19:17 <davb> I am not sure what you are trying to create with acs_privilige.create_privilege('manager')
17:19:59 <davb> The privileges are read,write,create,delete,admin...
17:20:12 <Psychephylax> create a new privilege?
17:20:35 <davb> Ok. I get it now.
17:21:20 <davb> You need to actually add something in add_child though. ('manager', 'read') etc...
17:22:29 <davb> Are you trying to give permission for managers to create other users under their level?
17:24:19 <davb> Psychephylax check out the cms-permssions.sql inside the CMS package. It is doing the kind of thing you want, only alot more of it.
17:24:35 <Psychephylax> yes!
17:24:56 <Psychephylax> where's the cms-permissions.sql?
17:25:11 <markd2> in the cms package - an extra download
17:25:14 <davb> in the CMS package. You probably have to check it out.
17:25:33 <Psychephylax> I have the cms package
17:25:44 <davb> its int he sql/oracle directory
17:25:50 <Psychephylax> found it :)
17:25:52 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax reads
17:26:20 <Psychephylax> but yes, Dave, I need to ive permission for managers to create other users
17:26:21 <Psychephylax>           under their level?
17:26:31 <Psychephylax> as well as their own
17:26:36 <Psychephylax> managers can create other managers
17:26:43 <Psychephylax> but supervisors can only create regular users
17:27:11 <Psychephylax> wow...Comments...
17:28:36 <davb> Aha.
17:31:13 <Psychephylax> hmmm
17:31:21 <Psychephylax> not very good comments but ok...at least some comments
17:34:02 <Psychephylax> ok
17:34:10 <Psychephylax> is it me or is there no acs_privilege api?
17:34:21 <Psychephylax> No results found 
17:34:47 <davb> acs_privilige
17:34:51 <davb> ?
17:35:00 <Psychephylax> yeah
17:35:17 <markd2> ugh.  I hope it's not spelled privilige.
17:35:19 <Psychephylax> acs_privilege.create_privilege('cm_admin', 'Administrator', 'Administrators');
17:35:49 <Psychephylax> i tried looking for acs_privilege and create_privilege in both PL/SQL api and in TCL api and found nothing
17:35:58 <davb> weird.
17:36:11 <Psychephylax> yeah
17:36:50 <Psychephylax> see
17:36:53 <Psychephylax> my stuff is indeed there
17:36:54 <davb> acs_permission.grant
17:36:57 <markd2> cd /web/cookies;  find . -name "*.sql" -exec grep acs_privilege {} \; -print
17:36:57 <Psychephylax> GROUP_ID GROUP_NAME
17:36:57 <Psychephylax> ---------- ----------
17:36:57 <Psychephylax>         -2 Registered
17:36:57 <Psychephylax>             Users
17:36:57 <Psychephylax>       2177 Super User
17:36:58 <Psychephylax>       2180 Manager
17:37:00 <Psychephylax>       2183 Supervisor
17:37:02 <Psychephylax>       2239 Main Site
17:37:04 <Psychephylax>            Parties
17:37:04 <davb> no wiat. thats for permission.
17:37:06 <Psychephylax>       2324 SNMP Super
17:37:08 <Psychephylax>            visor
17:37:51 <Psychephylax> is there a way to find out if a user is in a group_id?
17:38:16 <davb> \q
17:38:18 <davb> oops
17:39:44 <davb> Psychephylax: i think you need to look into the relationships stuff that is related to groups and permissions.
17:40:52 <Psychephylax> Read that
17:41:23 <Psychephylax> see, the problem is that the docs talk about how the system works in general
17:41:40 <Psychephylax> like the hierarchy of parties and how groups relate to each other
17:41:54 <Psychephylax> That's not the problem I have :/ it's the coding part
17:42:02 <davb> right.
17:43:33 <Psychephylax> Heh
17:43:48 <Psychephylax> I just need some documentation on Roles and I think I got everything covered
17:49:05 <davb> Yeah! My query does not require a connect by or similar structure.
17:49:18 <markd2> woo hoo!
17:53:51 <Psychephylax> 0k
17:55:15 <markd2> markd2 has left #openacs
17:55:29 <Psychephylax> hrmmm
17:55:41 <Psychephylax> so would I have to create my own context?
18:00:31 <Psychephylax> Is there like a history type thing in Oracle?
18:02:25 <Psychephylax> interesting
18:02:29 <Psychephylax> very very interesting
18:04:20 <davb> very^3 interesting
18:04:20 <talli> talli has quit
18:05:13 <Psychephylax> lol
18:05:21 <Psychephylax> well
18:05:27 <Psychephylax> my sql stuff definetly does work
18:05:34 <davb> excellent
18:05:45 <Psychephylax> I see my entries in all these places that according to the docs define relationships
18:05:46 <Psychephylax> BUT
18:05:58 <Psychephylax> It still does not answer the question of "WHY does it not work"
18:06:22 <Psychephylax> and the fact that I don't know oracle is not helping
18:06:32 <Psychephylax> I'm building queries that are like 8 times longer than mark can make
18:06:46 <davb> It is possible that OpenACS is broken.
18:07:00 <Psychephylax> Well, that doesn't help me very much! :p
18:07:19 <Psychephylax> OpenACS better have a job for me when I get fired from here for not providing working stuff! :P
18:07:32 <davb> It will work. Don't worry.
18:07:44 <Psychephylax> deadlines!! deadlines!!!!!!
18:07:51 <Psychephylax> Not yours...mine! :P
18:08:00 <Psychephylax> That's why I wish they gave me something to code on my own
18:08:06 <Psychephylax> not pick through stuff someone already coded for me
18:08:52 <Psychephylax> Is it possible to create a query that does not stop?
18:08:58 <Psychephylax> Like an infinite loop type deal?
18:09:05 <davb> Probably.
18:09:16 <Psychephylax> lol
18:09:20 <davb> Yeah, I bet that doesn't help either.
18:09:27 <Psychephylax> nope
18:09:47 <davb> Ask a question on the bboard. People are actually using ACS 4 and OpenACS 4.
18:09:52 <davb> Just not any of us yet...
18:11:30 <Psychephylax> 5100 rows selected.
18:11:39 <davb> not too bad.
18:12:10 <ola> davb: what did you do on ETP?
18:14:07 <ola> you added keyword functionality, didn't you?
18:16:55 <davb> yes. I am still working on it.
18:17:15 <ola> I'm sure this is very useful, but, can you explain how?
18:17:57 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax shouts
18:17:59 <davb> Well, basically I created procs to assign keywords to the content items. Basically its a UI. All the functions are in the CR
18:18:02 <Psychephylax> Write a how-to!
18:18:14 <davb> When I am done... good idea.
18:18:31 <davb> BLURB: DavB will write a how-to-categorize your package
18:18:31 <chump> A: DavB will write a how-to-categorize your package from davb
18:19:23 <davb> oops. need a <br> in there.
18:20:04 <ola> is it something like <meta> tags for search engines?
18:20:47 <davb> no. Well you could do that if you wanted to in a template. 
18:21:06 <davb> It is for internal ACS use. I think the search package might use them, maybe not.
18:21:21 <ola> ok.
18:21:22 <Psychephylax> so what bboard should I post into?
18:21:41 <Psychephylax> aand, what should I tell them to bypass all the "read the 'Permissions tediously explained'" answers
18:21:55 <davb> Yeah, nicely though.
18:22:30 <davb> Hopefully someone who has used the system will be able to point you in the right direction.
18:22:52 <Psychephylax> i don't get it though
18:23:00 <Psychephylax> If you guys are porters how come you're not running 4?
18:23:02 <davb> ola: there is a table of keywords cr_keywords and a map cr_content_keyword_map or something like that.
18:23:16 <davb> We are way to busy to fool with the group system.
18:23:25 <davb> I only have 1 user.
18:23:56 <davb> I am going to convert my site as soon as I finish working on ETP.
18:24:32 <davb> ola: the keyword maps links any acs_object with a keyword.
18:25:15 <davb> Say there are 100 keywords available. Would you like to click on each one to assign it and wait for the page to reload, or have a checkbox for each one? 
18:25:20 <davb> and one submit button.
18:26:19 <ola> checkboxes, I guess.
18:26:51 <davb> ok thanks.
18:27:08 <ola> np:-)
18:27:52 <Psychephylax> Hah!
18:28:00 <Psychephylax> See --> http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0002cT&topic_id=12&topic=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Design
18:28:05 <Psychephylax> I'm not the only one
18:28:11 <Psychephylax> And nobody posted an answer
18:30:20 <ola> well, that's just a fact of life - noone really knows this stuff...
18:31:05 <Psychephylax> heh
18:31:08 <Psychephylax> then why is it there?
18:31:09 <Psychephylax> :P
18:31:21 <ola> good point.
18:32:07 <Psychephylax> If you put it there...at least document it! :)
18:32:12 <Psychephylax> and document it well
18:36:45 <davb> hey Psychephylax, we are on your side.
18:37:36 <Psychephylax> I'm on your side too :)
18:37:57 <Psychephylax> And I see that OACS has lots of potential
18:38:19 <Psychephylax> but lacking of proper (looks around for Roberto) documentation is what makes it really hard to develop for it
18:42:47 <Psychephylax> Hmmm: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0002r2&topic_id=12&topic=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Design
18:43:00 <Psychephylax> i am out of dr. pepper
18:43:57 <davb> break time.
18:44:15 <ola> psyche: why don't you take out one of your cookies, so markd2 comes to your rescue?
18:46:33 <davb> hmmmm...
18:47:24 <davb> anyone know about ACS templating? I am trying to compare one tcl variable to another one in ane <if>
18:47:58 <ola> I fiddled with it a bit.
18:48:18 <ola> ..so you can try and ask me...
18:48:31 <davb> I have something like this: <if @all_keywords.keyword_id@ in @assigned_keywords@>
18:48:45 <davb> I am trying to see if a keyword is already assigned so I can pre-check the checkbox.
18:50:13 <davb> All the examples have literals after the operator.
18:50:23 <Psychephylax> because mark probably won't help me
18:50:51 <ola> is @assigned_keywords@ a list?
18:50:59 <davb> yes. it should be anyway.
18:51:52 <ola> hmm... lemme think.
18:52:09 <davb> If I do @assigned_keywords@ i get 3317 3319 etc... all the ids.
18:52:49 <davb> aha. it appears that keyword_id is not defined.
18:53:25 <ola> well, have you tried the above code? it may work.
18:54:47 <davb> It doesn't work. I do have the keyword ids. I can display them in the adp page.
18:56:09 <ola> try: <if @all_keywords.keyword_id@ in
18:56:09 <ola>        @assigned_keywords@>
18:56:14 <ola> err.
18:56:27 <ola> try: <if "@all_keywords.keyword_id@" in
18:57:20 <Psychephylax> oh man
18:57:22 <davb> cool.
18:57:47 <davb> nope, darn.
18:58:41 <davb> Aha. 
18:59:05 <davb> If I hard code in the numbers it works fine. @all_keywords.keyword_id@ in 3373 3184 3372
18:59:21 <ola> join the list to a string.
18:59:43 <davb> How does that work?
19:00:42 <ola> set string [join $list " "]
19:00:58 <davb> cool.
19:02:01 <davb> darn. that squishs them all together into one string.
19:02:26 <davb> Seems like I might want to compare one passed in value with another one.
19:03:42 <Psychephylax> lemme get this straight
19:04:44 <Psychephylax> basically a party is like a mailing list, where you can add users or other mailing lists to the mailing list
19:06:27 <Psychephylax> cool...an M&M that looks like a butt
19:06:39 <davb> siamese M&M
19:06:44 <Psychephylax> yup
19:07:08 <davb> I think you have to use <list> to iterate through a list otherwise it doesn;t work.
19:07:42 <davb> Then I would have to do <multiple>
19:08:18 <Psychephylax> hmmm
19:08:24 <Psychephylax> Interesting...
19:08:25 <davb> It would be impossible. I think I can do it in the query so it ends up in the multirow datasource. But then I have to run a plpgsql function on every keyword. 
19:08:39 <davb> Could be time consuming.
19:08:54 <davb> I think I need to write my OWN function to do a check like that.
19:09:57 <davb> I still think the <if> should just work like that though.
19:11:21 <davb> Now I know how Psychephylax feels. Every time he tries to do something, he almost has to reprogram another part of the ACS kernel to make it work.
19:12:54 <ola> davb: maybe you can use a flag column in the multirow? and not ue "in"
19:13:30 <davb> Yeah, I think I have to do it that way in the tcl file.
19:13:35 <ola> what's wrong with the string? no spaces?
19:13:38 <davb> I am just thinking of the best way. 
19:14:06 <davb> No the string looks great. I just think the template parser is not evaluating the @assigned_keywords@ 
19:14:28 <davb> on the right side of the operator anyway.
19:14:41 <davb> there is a function content_keyword__is_assigned
19:14:47 <Psychephylax> aha!
19:14:53 <davb> I don't want to have to run that for every row in cr_keywords.
19:14:54 <Psychephylax> composition is transitive
19:15:01 <Psychephylax> but membership is not
19:15:04 <davb> ow, stop my head hurts!
19:15:09 <Psychephylax> lol
19:16:05 <xemacs5> xemacs5 has quit
19:16:22 <Psychephylax> woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
19:16:27 <davb> how can I serach for <if ?????? in ??????> with grep?
19:16:28 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax dances around his desk
19:16:41 <davb> it is customary to say eureaka!
19:16:44 <Psychephylax> was that enough 0's?
19:16:48 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax apologizes
19:17:02 <Psychephylax> EUREKA! (and the bathtub overflows)
19:17:46 <davb> * davb wishes he could do regexp
19:17:49 <Psychephylax> now i Just have to remember how i did it
19:17:58 <Psychephylax> for tcl?
19:18:04 <davb> grep
19:18:19 <davb> or whatever I need to find all the <if statements that have in in them.
19:18:57 <Psychephylax> oh
19:19:09 <Psychephylax> i think grep uses perl type regexps
19:19:23 <davb> yeah I don't know perl or tcl regexp.
19:20:27 <Psychephylax> muahahahahahaha!
19:22:24 <Psychephylax> http://www.scriptics.com/doc/howto/regexp81.html
19:22:24 <ola> too much Dr.Pepper?;-)
19:22:24 <chump> B: http://www.scriptics.com/doc/howto/regexp81.html from Psychephylax
19:22:46 <Psychephylax> B:| New Regular Expression Features in Tcl 8.1
19:22:46 <chump> titled item B
19:23:14 <Psychephylax> B: Tcl 8.1 now handles advanced regular expressions (REs). Previous regular expression handling is almost unchanged except that clumsy handling of escapes like \n has been much improved, and a few escapes that were previously legal (but useless) now won't work.
19:23:15 <chump> commented item B
19:23:40 <Psychephylax> TCL regexps
19:24:51 <Psychephylax> ok
19:24:57 <Psychephylax> my turn to ask another question about TCL :P
19:25:00 <Psychephylax>  <if @snmp_admin@ eq 1>
19:25:07 <Psychephylax> checks to see if snmp_admin equals one
19:25:10 <davb> yes
19:25:22 <Psychephylax> is there a way to do if admin or supervisor eq 1?
19:25:54 <davb> if @snmp_admin@ eq 1 or @snmp_supervisor@ ep 1>
19:26:02 <Psychephylax> ok
19:26:04 <Psychephylax> thanks
19:26:13 <davb> you can use as many and or not as you want in there.
19:26:41 <davb> All documentation should have examples.
19:27:10 <Psychephylax> ok
19:27:24 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax gives Dave a cookie
19:28:17 <ola> I think the templating system rocks. <include> is VERY poverful.
19:28:38 <ola> powerful
19:28:40 <davb> I like the templating system very much,
19:28:56 <davb> I suspect it is because I am half designer/half programmer though
19:29:54 <ola> <group> is also very cool.
19:31:12 <davb> that is cool...
19:32:43 <Psychephylax> anyone seen vinod around recently?
19:32:56 <davb> no.
19:33:08 <Psychephylax> is he on vacation or something?
19:33:50 <davb> not sure. His web page was updated 9/18
19:34:04 <Psychephylax> What's his webpage?
19:35:55 <ola> http://www.kurup.com
19:35:56 <chump> C: http://www.kurup.com from ola
19:37:46 <Psychephylax> cool
19:37:49 <ola> I like the design of that indexpage!
19:39:11 <markd2> markd2 has joined #openacs
19:39:22 <davb> Hey markd2
19:40:34 <markd2> yo
19:40:39 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax gives Mark a cookie
19:40:51 <markd2> * markd2 gains weight
19:41:39 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax gives mark money for liposuction
19:43:27 <Psychephylax> Woohooo
19:43:32 <Psychephylax> I solved my problem of the day
19:43:40 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax eats one of the cookies designated "For Mark"
19:43:43 <markd2> huzzah!  play time now
19:43:51 <Psychephylax> yeah
19:44:03 <Psychephylax> The next problem of the day is "What exactly happens when you click on the add user button"
19:44:23 <markd2> "magic"
19:44:30 <Psychephylax> yeah
19:44:36 <Psychephylax> I'd like to just tell that to my boss
19:44:40 <davb> read the code
19:45:44 <Psychephylax> i know
19:45:51 <markd2> use the source, fluke
19:45:56 <markd2> fluke, I am your father.
19:46:05 <Psychephylax> and modify it to insert his group types too
19:46:06 <markd2> * markd2 breathes heavily
19:46:10 <Psychephylax> Heh
19:46:19 <Psychephylax> we joked like that when we were on the boat fishing for Fluke
19:46:42 <Psychephylax> Caught one, open it's mouth saying "Fluuuuuke...*deep breath*...I am your father!"
19:46:56 <markd2> heh
19:47:20 <Psychephylax> hehe
19:47:28 <Psychephylax> You guys gotta see this...
19:48:04 <Psychephylax> d'oh
19:48:18 <Psychephylax> I need to set up a terminal client so I can get to my desktop at home
19:49:49 <Psychephylax> We got stuck on a sand bar when we went out 
19:50:01 <Psychephylax> I have pictures from that 
19:50:15 <Psychephylax> time lapse photography...sandbar getting bigger...and bigger...and BIGGER
19:50:21 <markd2> heh
19:50:26 <Psychephylax> That trip cost my friend and I 600$
19:50:36 <markd2> I'm on a slow slow slow connection, so my imagination is probably more effective
19:50:39 <markd2> ouch!
19:50:41 <davb> http://gnosis.cx/publish/programming/regular_expressions.html
19:50:41 <chump> D: http://gnosis.cx/publish/programming/regular_expressions.html from davb
19:50:53 <davb> D:|Regular Expressions Tutorial
19:50:53 <chump> titled item D
19:51:04 <Psychephylax> for what language?
19:51:11 <Psychephylax> :)
19:51:55 <markd2> cool pictures
19:52:50 <Psychephylax> ?
19:52:54 <davb> Anyway. All I want to go is give the regexp to grep. I am not sure how to pass it in. Do i need quotes or something?
19:53:00 <markd2> on the regex site
19:53:10 <markd2> davb: if it has shell metacharacters in it, yes
19:53:23 <markd2> grep "*.spoons" file1 file2 file*
19:53:32 <davb> Aha.
19:53:41 <davb> cool thanks. That is not documented anywhere I could find.
19:53:42 <markd2> or ls -1 | grep "*.ack"
19:54:01 <Psychephylax> does anyone know how to make apache listen on a differnet port as well as 80?
19:54:02 <davb> New junkyard wars on tonight. 
19:54:12 <markd2> Enterprise(tm) premiers tonight too
19:54:14 <davb> edit httpd.conf
19:54:19 <Psychephylax> yeah I know that
19:54:21 <davb> yeah I just heard. Time for Tivo.
19:54:24 <davb> :)
19:54:32 <markd2> we're heading over to a friend's house to watch
19:54:42 <markd2> * markd2 doesn have the teevee hooked up to the Outside World
19:54:47 <Psychephylax> lol
19:54:50 <Psychephylax> teevee is good
19:55:07 <markd2> I easily slip very easily into Couch Potato mode
19:55:24 <markd2> so it's dangerous to have a working tv around
19:55:29 <markd2> save for the B5 and TNG tapes we already have
19:55:39 <Psychephylax> lol
19:55:44 <Psychephylax> you'd fit in with my bosses well
19:56:48 <Psychephylax> See, I edit the Listen part of httpd.conf but it still does not listen
19:57:09 <Psychephylax> and yes, I restarted
19:57:12 <davb> Oh.
19:57:47 <Psychephylax> aha!
19:57:49 <Psychephylax> I goofed
19:59:00 <Psychephylax> it listens to on 1084 but not on 8000
19:59:14 <davb> weird. SOmething is already on there.
19:59:18 <Psychephylax> nope
19:59:22 <Psychephylax> but I'll try a diff port
19:59:34 <davb> ok, just weird then.
19:59:53 <markd2> nothing there as in verified with trying to telnet to that port?
20:00:43 <Psychephylax> I portscan localhost
20:00:48 <Psychephylax> doh
20:00:51 <Psychephylax> stupid ass I am
20:02:22 <markd2> ohwha  tanass eyeam
20:02:37 <Psychephylax> yes I am 
20:02:52 <Psychephylax> my firewall blocked the requests :P
20:02:59 <markd2> heh
20:03:15 <davb> well at least you know it works.
20:03:27 <Psychephylax> i don't know that it works just yet
20:03:51 <davb> the firewall :)
20:03:57 <Psychephylax> oh
20:03:57 <Psychephylax> lol
20:04:00 <davb> egrep: better than grep
20:04:03 <Psychephylax> yeah I knew that it works before I did that
20:04:09 <markd2> I've never really used egrep
20:04:19 <markd2> I always get confused oer what egrep vs fgrep vs regular grep do
20:04:58 <davb> oh, just that the regexp seems to be easer to use. I have no clue.
20:05:05 <Psychephylax> anyone familiar with ipfw?
20:05:21 <davb> nope
20:10:59 <davb> I don;t think there is an <if in> in the whole ACS
20:11:06 <davb> but I can;t be sure, my regexp sucks.
20:14:39 <Psychephylax> hmmm
20:15:08 <davb> I think I am right. I found <if @info and <if @mime_type@ eq text/plain>
20:15:29 <davb> So no where in the whole ACS is <if @stuff@ in "other stuff"> used.
20:15:35 <davb> no wonder it doesn't work.
20:16:30 <vinod> vinod has joined #openacs
20:16:43 <markd2> yo vinod
20:16:49 <ola> hi vinod
20:16:59 <vinod> howdy everyone!
20:17:40 <Psychephylax> It's Vinod!
20:17:48 <Psychephylax> We were just talking about you
20:18:09 <vinod> uh oh
20:18:12 <Psychephylax> hehe
20:18:19 <Psychephylax> Just wondering if you were alive
20:18:34 <vinod> most of me seems to be working. the jury's still out though
20:18:49 <davb> Hi vinod
20:18:50 <Psychephylax> hmmm?
20:18:56 <vinod> hey dave!
20:19:09 <davb> markd2: did I ask you before about domain-based subsites in ACS 4/Tcl?
20:19:23 <vinod> i've been taking a semi-self-imposed hiatus from the internet. family stuff, work stuff, etc..
20:19:30 <davb> Good idea.
20:20:21 <markd2> devb: no
20:20:26 <markd2> I dunno if they exist / work or not
20:20:36 <davb> I figured as much.
20:21:04 <davb> I will email the person who said that a patch existed. He should know.
20:21:41 <Psychephylax> Vinod, you check your e-mail recently?
20:22:39 <vinod> yeah, i'm still a few days behind though... why?
20:23:05 <Psychephylax> I e-mailed you :)
20:23:19 <vinod> ahh... lemme search
20:24:16 <Psychephylax> i've made progress since that e-mail though
20:24:53 <vinod> what are you having trouble with now?
20:25:37 <Psychephylax> Figuring out how to create a user (but when creating a user setting him to belong in a group) instead of just creating a user
20:25:48 <talli> talli has joined #openacs
20:25:55 <Psychephylax> wb talli 
20:26:12 <talli> whoa. vinod's here
20:26:18 <Psychephylax> :)
20:26:32 <vinod> hey talli!
20:27:34 <Psychephylax> hmm
20:27:51 <Psychephylax> I think I'll have to create a relation on my own
20:28:09 <Psychephylax> hmmmm
20:28:50 <Psychephylax> Do I do sql insert/update statements in my tcl thing or do I write a function somewhere to use for that instead?
20:28:51 <vinod> Psychephylax: have you created a group yet?
20:28:54 <Psychephylax> yes
20:29:01 <Psychephylax> And I can add members to those groups as well
20:29:34 <Psychephylax> The code I used for reference did almost what I needed
20:29:50 <Psychephylax> it just never added the new uber-people to the group
20:30:17 <davb> Psychephylax: you need a special two-step page. That creates the user then adds him to the group.
20:30:54 <Psychephylax> technically I only need one..but I need a separate function/procedure dealie to add the user to the group
20:31:06 <davb> yes. thats it.
20:31:14 <Psychephylax> i just have to figure out what to insert where
20:31:23 <talli> vinod: where have you been? did you get lost in the radiology department again?
20:31:37 <Psychephylax> lol
20:31:58 <vinod> no one told me that 'Xray' wasn't the same as 'eXit'
20:32:07 <Psychephylax> bahaha
20:32:20 <markd2> heh
20:32:20 <talli> did hey make you where those little gowns that show your ass?
20:32:32 <talli> wish i was there for that one.
20:32:44 <vinod> i know you do, you sick puppy
20:32:48 <Psychephylax> :/
20:34:25 <Psychephylax> Maps the specified user to the specified group in the specified role; if the mapping already exists,
20:34:26 <Psychephylax>       does nothing. 
20:34:45 <Psychephylax> is this saying that I can tell ACS to have user belong to a group as manager?
20:34:49 <vinod> Psychephylax: that sounds like what you need
20:35:12 <Psychephylax> aha
20:35:35 <vinod> user: user121321, group: manager, role: member
20:35:57 <davb> BLURB: All the TCL proc APIs and PL/Pgsql APIs need to be in the docs, not just the API browser
20:35:58 <chump> E: All the TCL proc APIs and PL/Pgsql APIs need to be in the docs, not just the API browser from davb
20:36:03 <Psychephylax> so first I need a select to find out what user_id is the person, then one for the group and then run that with those 2 arguments?
20:36:39 <vinod> well, if you've just created the user, you'll already have the user_id
20:36:49 <Psychephylax> right
20:36:56 <Psychephylax> what's this role thing they're talking about?
20:37:03 <Psychephylax> I'm not quiet sure about "role" stuff yet
20:37:07 <davb> bye (going home)
20:37:07 <vinod> each group can have any number of roles
20:37:10 <davb> davb has quit
20:37:12 <Psychephylax> is that derived from the db
20:37:28 <vinod> for now, you can ignore it and just make everyone in the 'member' role
20:37:36 <Psychephylax> oh
20:37:38 <markd2> dismembers only
20:37:47 <vinod> it's just more fine-grained permissions within a group
20:38:31 <vinod> markd2: that was that popular jacket back in the 80's, right?
20:38:47 <Psychephylax> so my call would be [ad_user_group_add $user_id, 'member', $group_id] where group_id is determined from a select statement that finds the actual group_id when searching for "Manager"
20:39:06 <vinod> correct
20:39:10 <Psychephylax> woohoo
20:39:18 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax goes to figure out the way to find out the manager ids
20:39:46 <markd2> vinod: or that great cinematic masterpiece "I dismember mama, may she rest in pieces"
20:39:59 <vinod> haha
20:40:07 <Psychephylax> Aha!
20:40:16 <Psychephylax> select group_id from groups where group_name='Manager';
20:40:40 <vinod> bingo.
20:41:11 <Psychephylax> I can abstract it by reading what user type the person is adding by passing it from the forms page into the next tcl page
20:41:16 <Psychephylax> :0
20:41:28 <Psychephylax> This ADP stuff is cake once you spend 2 months figuring it out
20:41:43 <vinod> correct again
20:41:45 <Psychephylax> The key is not to get fired before your 2 months are up
20:41:48 <ola> dismember is a swedish death metal band
20:41:49 <vinod> Psychephylax is on a roll
20:41:56 <markd2> ooooh
20:42:00 <Psychephylax> death..that sounds so violent
20:42:17 <ola> heh
20:42:29 <markd2> I get really confused about all the different kinds of Heavy Metal:
20:42:29 <markd2>    deathcore, grindcore, hardcore, bellcore.  Which kind is which?
20:43:06 <markd2> (for those who don't get the joke, BellCore was the telco research wing before it got turned into Lucent)
20:43:22 <vinod> * vinod pulls out his death metal classification workbook
20:43:22 <Psychephylax> lol
20:43:33 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax gives Mark a cookie
20:43:45 <Psychephylax> Mmmm...Dr. Pepper
20:43:46 <markd2> gonna ruin my appetite for dinner
20:43:49 <markd2> but I take it anyway
20:43:53 <Psychephylax> Vinod, is Dr. Pepper deadly?
20:43:57 <Psychephylax> :)
20:44:05 <vinod> markd2: hey.. i'm watchin you
20:44:08 <Psychephylax> I'm about to go get my 3rd can
20:44:30 <vinod> Psychephylax: well, if you're eating the cans...
20:45:59 <Psychephylax> no just sucking the liquid out of them
20:46:29 <vinod> i think you're ok then. anything endorsed by a Doctor has to be good ;-)
20:46:33 <Psychephylax> rofl
20:46:35 <Psychephylax> ok then!
20:47:12 <Psychephylax> ok
20:47:16 <Psychephylax> I'm confused on this command
20:47:24 <Psychephylax> set user_id [ad_user_new $email $first_names $last_name $password "" "" "" "t"
20:47:29 <Psychephylax> "approved" $user_id] 
20:47:31 <Psychephylax> now
20:47:35 <Psychephylax> that's how they add a user
20:47:47 <Psychephylax> but why is it set user_id [function]
20:48:05 <markd2> the function creates a new user.
20:48:08 <markd2> and then returns the id of that user
20:48:13 <markd2> since you don't know the id before you call it
20:48:55 <Psychephylax> oh
20:49:28 <Psychephylax> so the function has a return value of type int which happens to be the user_id
20:50:11 <Psychephylax> why isn't ad_user_new in the API?!
20:50:29 <markd2> yeah
20:50:33 <markd2> although there ar no types in tcl :-)
20:51:24 <talli> talli has quit
20:51:38 <Psychephylax> yeah yeah
20:51:41 <Psychephylax> they're all strings or ints
20:51:42 <Psychephylax> :P
20:52:11 <markd2> just strings :-)
20:52:18 <markd2> which sometimes get interpreted as ints
20:52:31 <markd2> actually, strings and arrays are the types
20:52:57 <Psychephylax> ok, well, http://www.arsdigita.com/api-doc/proc-view?proc=ad%5fuser%5fgroup%5fuser%5fadd
20:53:02 <Psychephylax> does not tell me if it has any returns
20:53:32 <Psychephylax> so I don't actually "set " anything i just tell it to go [ad_user_group_user_add par1 par2 par3]
20:53:37 <Psychephylax> and hope it does what it's supposed to?
20:54:47 <markd2> yep
20:54:57 <vinod> correct. click on the 'show source' button. it's a pretty simple proc
20:55:10 <markd2> having the user_id would probably be handy for doing things to the user
20:57:39 <Psychephylax> like killing him
20:57:40 <Psychephylax> hehe
20:58:13 <vinod> we don't kill users. we 'dismember' them
20:59:10 <markd2> gotta learn the lingo
20:59:17 <Psychephylax> gah
20:59:30 <Psychephylax> are the parameters separated by commas or just spaces?
20:59:38 <markd2> in tcl, spaces
20:59:44 <Psychephylax> aha
20:59:55 <Psychephylax> last question
21:00:03 <Psychephylax> what's the default role? member?
21:00:49 <vinod> i think it's 'member', but that's just off the top of my head
21:00:58 <Psychephylax> aha
21:01:07 <Psychephylax> I can use my handy dandy l33t oracle skillz to look that stuff up
21:01:57 <vinod> gotta go eat! see y'all later
21:02:16 <Psychephylax> bye bye
21:02:36 <til> til has quit
21:05:35 <Psychephylax> member it is
21:06:38 <Psychephylax> hmmm
21:06:51 <Psychephylax> This is a question about bridging oracle to tcl
21:07:19 <markd2> suspension bridges, definitely
21:07:35 <Psychephylax> what's that?
21:07:39 <Psychephylax> oh
21:07:40 <Psychephylax> heh
21:08:19 <Psychephylax> I need to take the number my select query returns and set a tcl variable to that
21:08:24 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax looks at Vinod's code
21:08:52 <Psychephylax> aha
21:09:02 <Psychephylax> declare
21:09:07 <markd2> * markd2 declares
21:09:08 <Psychephylax> variable type;
21:09:19 <Psychephylax> select bah into variable;
21:09:29 <Psychephylax> close?
21:11:09 <markd2> in pl/sql, I think so
21:12:58 <Psychephylax> do I need pl/sql for this?
21:13:03 <Psychephylax> or is there a shortcut of some sorts?
21:13:35 <markd2> I dunno
21:13:57 <Psychephylax> ok
21:13:59 <markd2> if you're just doing  a query into a var, you can use set var [db_string blah "select count(*) rom cookies where recipient = 'markd2']
21:14:09 <markd2> er, From cookies
21:14:13 <markd2> my 'F' key is failing me
21:14:14 <Psychephylax> lol
21:15:06 <Psychephylax> so I could do set group_id [db_string <what's blah> "select user_id from acs_relations]
21:15:15 <Psychephylax> what's blah?
21:15:30 <markd2> check db_String docs
21:15:35 <markd2> it's like the name of the query
21:15:51 <Psychephylax> k
21:16:03 <markd2> and the query has to return one row
21:16:07 <markd2> use a different command for multiple rows
21:16:50 <Psychephylax> what's the other command for multiple rows?
21:17:01 <markd2> db_foreach?
21:17:59 <Psychephylax> oh
21:19:13 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax tries and hopes this works
21:24:51 <Psychephylax> hmmmm
21:24:54 <Psychephylax> Here's a problem
21:25:21 <Psychephylax> aside from Manager and supervisor in my groups table how do I find out what the normal users are
21:29:13 <markd2> ugly?
21:29:26 <Psychephylax> no
21:29:45 <Psychephylax> I'm trying to figure out what regular users are
21:29:58 <Psychephylax> i mean what group they go to
21:31:21 <Psychephylax> it's gotta be somewhere here in the db
21:32:30 <Psychephylax> any ideas?
21:32:40 <Psychephylax> oh
21:32:45 <markd2> dunno
21:32:46 <Psychephylax> here's a nice workaround
21:32:48 <Psychephylax> lol
21:32:49 <markd2> they might not be a member of any group
21:32:53 <Psychephylax> you're right
21:33:01 <Psychephylax> that's why I'm going to check to see who the person is...
21:33:06 <Psychephylax> before running a tcl script
21:34:35 <Psychephylax> hmmmm
21:35:09 <Psychephylax> hmm
21:35:09 <Psychephylax> ok
21:35:27 <Psychephylax> I suppose I can do:
21:35:55 <Psychephylax> if user_type eq 'manager' or user_type eq 'supervisor' then select group_id from the table
21:35:57 <Psychephylax> else nothing
21:36:13 <Psychephylax> this way, if the person is trying to add a manager or supervisor I will find out what group they are in
21:36:17 <Psychephylax> otherwise, it's just a regular user
21:38:15 <Psychephylax> now if I can only figure out how to do what i just said I'll be in business
21:39:21 <markd2> heh
21:40:00 <Psychephylax> ok
21:40:44 <Psychephylax> my form passes user_type over to user-add-2.tcl
21:40:58 <Psychephylax> user-add-2.tcl yanks that out in the contract part
21:41:09 <Psychephylax> then I compare user_type to 2 strings
21:44:52 <Psychephylax> Aha!
21:44:56 <Psychephylax> How does this look:
21:45:07 <Psychephylax> if { $user_type = "Manager" or $user_type = "Supervisor" } { 
21:45:07 <Psychephylax> set group_id [db_string group_find "select group_id from groups where group_name = $user_type]; 
21:45:07 <Psychephylax>  
21:45:07 <Psychephylax> [ad_user_group_user_add $user_id 'member' $group_id] 
21:45:08 <Psychephylax> } 
21:45:48 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax departs to recycle 3 cans of Dr. Pepper.
21:47:21 <ola> ola has quit
21:47:28 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax returns weighing 3 pounds less
21:47:36 <Psychephylax> no sorry....24 ounces less
21:49:18 <markd2> heh
21:49:59 <Psychephylax> Mark, that look right to you?
21:50:38 <markd2> 24 ounces?
21:50:38 <Psychephylax> or should I be using string compare?
21:50:49 <markd2> oh.  more stuf scrolled by.  lemme read
21:50:51 <Psychephylax> well, technically 36 but I didn't finish 1 more
21:50:58 <markd2> well, == instead of =
21:51:01 <Psychephylax> ok
21:51:05 <KarlL> no need to use string compare
21:51:19 <markd2> yeah
21:51:34 <markd2> you'd need to use sting compare if there's a chance you could have a string that's just digits
21:51:34 <Psychephylax> ok
21:51:40 <Psychephylax> oh
21:51:45 <markd2> then tcl tries to do "manager == 23" as integer math
21:51:49 <markd2> and barfs quite messily
21:52:04 <Psychephylax> lol
21:52:07 <Psychephylax> how about this
21:52:10 <KarlL> unless you are comparing really long strings of digits, like credit cards, which can cause direct comparison to blow out because of integer conversion
21:52:17 <Psychephylax> Things I'm not positive about
21:52:41 <Psychephylax> ($user_type == 'Manager"
21:52:48 <Psychephylax> Which quotes am I using
21:52:55 <Psychephylax> and...are they even necessary?
21:53:09 <KarlL> Quotes are necessary for comparison in if statements.  this special rule...
21:53:10 <Psychephylax> man, I really need to go pick up that TCL book
21:53:31 <Psychephylax> ok, then which ones are the correct ones?
21:53:38 <KarlL> prevents many programming errors, where you say ... if {bar == 4} { ... instead of ... if {$bar == 4} ...
21:53:43 <Psychephylax> I know one set allows for variable expansion while another one does not
21:53:50 <KarlL> if {$user_type == "Manager"} ...
21:53:53 <Psychephylax> ok
21:55:14 <KarlL> if it's in curly brackets, variable expansion doesn't occur before execution, but "if" knows that its first argument is an expression, so it will call Tcl_ExprObj or whatever the C function is for evaluating expressions, and that function will perform variable expansion where it's needed
21:59:51 <KarlL> in fact, it is dangerous or a guaranteed bug to write while statements like this ... while [condition] {stuff} ... instead of this ... while {[condition]} stuff ... because in the former case the interpreter will evaluate the square bracketed stuff before while even begins, so if the condition returns true, the while will be an infinite loop
22:00:10 <KarlL> biab
22:02:57 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax has quit
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22:10:27 <Psychephylax> lovely
22:10:56 <Psychephylax> Our building had a brownout
22:11:02 <Psychephylax> Killed all of the servers
22:11:29 <Psychephylax> ping 167.206.9.143
22:11:31 <Psychephylax> ack
22:12:11 <Psychephylax> gonna go try to get rednet up
22:12:16 <Psychephylax> hopefully my files are safe
22:12:50 <Psychephylax> Oh well
22:12:52 <Psychephylax> this bites
22:12:57 <Psychephylax> So I'm going home
22:12:59 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax has quit
23:06:07 <markd2> markd2 has left #openacs
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23:15:04 <rbm> FSF Emacs!! :)
23:15:28 <rbm> brb
23:15:30 <xemacs5> jumping back on to see if ne1 can answer my internationalization q's
23:32:31 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax has joined #openacs
23:32:35 <Psychephylax> Hey all
23:35:57 <xemacs5> hey
23:40:49 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax ctl+x ctl+f /usr/vinod
23:41:08 <xemacs5> rm -rf /bin/laden/*
23:58:31 <Psychephylax> brb
23:58:48 <Psychephylax> Psychephylax has quit