IRC log of openacs on 2001-09-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:06:44 [loggy]

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00:06:44 [forward.openprojects.net]

topic is: Welcome to the OpenACS Helpline | http://www.openacs.org/

00:06:44 [forward.openprojects.net]

Users on #openacs: loggy markd2 AaronSw abbaJ KarlL rbm chump shagster

00:06:44 [ChanServ]

This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog

00:07:24 [markd2]

loggy loggy fo foggy bananna fanna bo boggy. me mi mo moggy. loggy!

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05:12:18 [wtem]

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05:12:29 [wtem]

howdy

05:13:04 [wtem]

anyone available for some pl-pgsql debugging fun?

05:14:03 [chump]

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05:15:00 [wtem]

hey chump

05:15:05 [wtem]

hah

05:16:58 [wtem]

damn

05:17:47 [wtem]

after fixing this bit of pl-pgsql i'm basically done with the photo-album...

05:18:22 [wtem]

and noone's around to help me fix what is probably a stupid mistake on my part, damn

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06:05:53 [xemacs5]

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10:03:31 [alekhine]

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10:03:35 [alekhine]

hello

10:07:20 [alekhine]

when will openacs go with java?

10:07:33 [alekhine]

or perhaps PHP?

10:07:44 [alekhine]

tcl is a strange language for webdevelopment

10:21:28 [ola]

OpenACS won't go with java anytime soon but ACS 4.6/5.0 is written in java and they will release a postgres version in October, I believe.

10:25:40 [ola]

why do you think tcl is strange for web developement?

10:31:25 [alekhine]

re

10:32:36 [alekhine]

well, because tcl was never meant for webdevelopment and therefore lacks functionalities to do complex stuff

10:32:42 [alekhine]

like regular expression

10:36:50 [alekhine]

the way arsdigita validate email addresses is so primitive

10:39:58 [ola]

aha. you mean the regexp?

10:40:54 [alekhine]

yes

10:42:39 [alekhine]

ACS with PHP would be cool

10:43:01 [alekhine]

I am having trouble with the install of the new ACS with Java

10:43:31 [alekhine]

my motivation dropped

10:43:43 [alekhine]

now I'm looking for a new framework :)

10:43:55 [alekhine]

you guys happen to know another good framework?

10:47:40 [ola]

dunno a thing about ACS java, sorry. noone's stopping you from porting ACS to PHP;-)

10:48:01 [alekhine]

can't do that on my own :)

10:48:09 [alekhine]

I'm also new to ACS :)

11:13:13 [ola]

I'm glad I found ACS/OpenACS so I never have to look for another framework:-)

11:13:29 [ola]

It works well enough for me...

11:15:27 [alekhine]

ola, how flexible is ACS/OpenACS?

11:15:38 [alekhine]

can you show a sample site that you've done?

11:16:19 [ola]

hmm. I've only done one site thus far: infogettable.net

11:16:28 [alekhine]

okay, checking :)

11:16:55 [ola]

let's play a game:-)

11:17:02 [alekhine]

:)

11:17:41 [alekhine]

did it help decreasing the development time?

11:17:50 [alekhine]

and did you have to tweak a lot?

11:18:40 [ola]

well, I couldn't have done it without OpenACS or a similar tool.

11:19:15 [ola]

I tweaked it somewhat but not so much.

11:19:38 [alekhine]

cool

11:19:42 [alekhine]

well

11:19:47 [alekhine]

the page doesn't work well

11:20:09 [alekhine]

but that's probably because you didn't spend enough to on tweaking :)

11:20:21 [ola]

this is done with OpenACS 3.2.5. - 4.0 is much more interesting.

11:20:45 [alekhine]

ola, is it easy to install openacs?

11:20:49 [ola]

what doesn't work?

11:21:13 [alekhine]

ola, try to search in the forum

11:21:14 [ola]

fairly easy. takes about a day.

11:21:51 [alekhine]

:)

11:22:05 [ola]

ok. things could have been tweaked better...

11:23:47 [alekhine]

have you ever write some functionalities upon the default features?

11:24:04 [alekhine]

and how does that go?

11:24:07 [alekhine]

flexible?

11:24:08 [alekhine]

:)

11:26:12 [alekhine]

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11:26:41 [ola]

yes I wrote a whole module for backgammon using a range of useful built-in procedures.

11:28:53 [ola]

darn. noone wants to play with me:-(

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11:37:29 [alekhine]

:)

11:37:33 [alekhine]

wrong button :)

11:39:57 [ola]

if you know how to play backgammon you can go to the "player pool" and choose to play against me.

11:40:19 [ola]

you'll have to register with my site, though.

11:41:33 [ola]

the game is turn based, so I need your correct email to send notifications when it's your turn.

11:44:51 [ola]

(or icq#)

12:24:31 [alekhine]

:)

12:24:32 [alekhine]

re

12:24:33 [alekhine]

sorry

12:24:36 [alekhine]

I don't know how to play

12:24:42 [alekhine]

and I'm not in the mood :)

12:24:55 [alekhine]

doing a new site for a hotel

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13:09:33 [shagster]

moo

13:10:24 [xemacs5]

moo to you toooooo

13:10:33 [shagster]

* shagster steals rbm's call, hopes it is not a GPL violation

13:11:33 [xemacs5]

I have an openacs install that is giving me some problems

13:11:45 [shagster]

what version of openacs?

13:11:48 [davb]

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13:12:00 [shagster]

morning davb

13:12:27 [xemacs5]

3.2.5, with the internationalization patches

13:12:39 [xemacs5]

specifically the ecommerce module

13:12:47 [shagster]

Hmm, I haven't tried that international.... patches...

13:14:03 [xemacs5]

that's ok, I will hang around some more... everything else about the software is working properly

13:15:32 [ola]

I thought the internationalization (phew) was in aolserver ad patches.

13:15:53 [xemacs5]

I am using the patches from Henry Minsky

13:16:13 [ola]

patches to acs?

13:16:49 [xemacs5]

yes, see www.ai.mit.edu/users/hqm/openacs, i think that is the proper url

13:20:00 [ola]

that url is wrong.

13:20:37 [xemacs5]

ok, hold on, will get the right one

13:22:04 [xemacs5]

replace users with people in the above URL

13:25:25 [xemacs5]

got it now?

13:25:44 [ola]

Yes. that reminds me, I must learn japanese some day.

13:28:11 [xemacs5]

I would like to learn it as well, but haven't found the time yet

14:10:44 [markd2]

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14:11:16 [markd2]

âllo

14:17:10 [xemacs5]

hello

14:17:45 [xemacs5]

hi Mark, do you have any familiarity with internationalization issues?

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14:28:11 [davb]

* davb is having fun converting flat file database to relational...

14:29:13 [shagster]

davb has a wierd definition of "fun"

14:32:10 [davb]

I am trying to convince myself its fun. Luckily it has infinite duplication with no consistency

14:39:29 [ola]

how far would you get on a 10GB/month transfer limit with an OACS4 site?

14:39:45 [ola]

enough for a small site? a big site?

14:39:52 [xemacs5]

about 10000 MB's

14:40:04 [ola]

hehe

14:40:43 [davb]

Depends, alot of graphics and file downloads? I think 10GB is like 56kbs average over 1 month.

14:40:57 [xemacs5]

ok, really it depends on how much graphics you have

14:41:17 [xemacs5]

one site I have done work for has a HUGE 125k home page

14:41:27 [xemacs5]

and they do about 1GB per month traffic

14:41:53 [xemacs5]

another site has smaller graphics, they do about 5GB due to much higher traffic

14:42:40 [davb]

You have to figure out have many visitors/page views and the average page size.

14:43:15 [ola]

xemacs5: how many hits are we talking about, per day?

14:43:23 [xemacs5]

you can get a decent amount of users and traffic with 10GB

14:43:34 [xemacs5]

I don't have access to their logs, so I can't tell you that

14:44:07 [xemacs5]

if you have 10GB transfer, you can certainly get started and run for a few months

14:44:16 [ola]

cool

14:44:30 [xemacs5]

when a customer's site of mine got slashdotted, they sent out 2GB in about 14 hours

14:45:05 [ola]

my oh my.

14:45:05 [davb]

Get a host that doens't rip you off if you go over.

14:46:13 [Psychephylax]

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14:46:14 [shagster]

I still do it by sustained usage, this GB month is BS in my book

14:46:21 [Psychephylax]

ahoy maties

14:46:42 [davb]

hey Psychephylax

14:46:46 [xemacs5]

full disclosure: xemacs5 = patrick@zill.net = www.zill.net, which does hosting of Openacs

14:46:47 [shagster]

Hey

14:47:26 [Psychephylax]

hey dave and others

14:47:44 [ola]

hey psyche

14:47:47 [shagster]

* shagster does hosting too, I'll hosting anything :)

14:50:27 [ola]

xemacs5: I wondered who you were. guess I asked at the right moment;-)

14:51:26 [xemacs5]

:-)

14:54:59 [Psychephylax]

ugh...*reminds himself of what he has to figure out now*...permissions

14:54:59 [xemacs5]

now you know...

14:55:36 [Psychephylax]

anyone have that "Permissions tediously explained" link handy?

15:00:06 [Psychephylax]

this: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog is broken

15:00:17 [Psychephylax]

or at least slow to respond

15:00:31 [ola]

the price per transfered GB seems fairly standardized here among co-location companies.

15:00:41 [davb]

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15:00:51 [ola]

about 10$/GB. damn those cartels..

15:01:22 [ola]

but wait! this seems cheap.

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15:02:20 [Psychephylax]

lol

15:02:30 [xemacs5]

my charges are $5 per GB over included bandwidth

15:02:49 [davb]

not bad.

15:02:52 [xemacs5]

expect bandwidth charges to drop further

15:03:04 [xemacs5]

in maybe 6 months, my prediction anyways

15:03:22 [ola]

psyche: http://openacs.org/new-file-storage/download/permissions-notes-vadim.html?version_id=229

15:03:47 [davb]

Psychephylax

15:03:50 [Psychephylax]

thanks Ola

15:03:51 [davb]

Works ok for me.

15:03:59 [Psychephylax]

yeah it timed out the first time

15:04:12 [davb]

Crappy ISP.

15:07:12 [Psychephylax]

mine? or the hosting one?

15:07:33 [davb]

Mine. The hosting one.

15:07:48 [Psychephylax]

oh ok

15:08:06 [davb]

Also slow machine.

15:08:47 [davb]

My pentium 200 server with 32mb ram can serve up static pages alot faster than the 500Mhz AMD 256MB ram OpenACS machine.

15:10:26 [davb]

Aha. I am out of RAM according to top. Must be aolserver.

15:10:28 [Psychephylax]

hehe

15:10:40 [Psychephylax]

time to drop down to single user and back :)

15:11:12 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax enjoys the tingling superior caffeeinated taste of Dr. Pepper

15:17:25 [davb]

* davb wonders if its AOLserver 3.2+ad12 and nsvhr.

15:17:42 [davb]

I have 20 nsd's running and 7 postmasters.

15:18:02 [davb]

I think its time to spring for some more RAM.

15:19:11 [ola]

there's a memory leak in ad12, I think.

15:19:12 [Psychephylax]

how much do you have?

15:19:48 [Psychephylax]

AHA!

15:19:57 [Psychephylax]

the contexts are hierarchial

15:20:38 [ola]

huh?

15:20:50 [Psychephylax]

I'm reading the permissions thing

15:20:59 [ola]

ah.

15:21:03 [Psychephylax]

There is a top level object

15:21:08 [Psychephylax]

and all other objects are it's children

15:21:33 [Psychephylax]

And if you grant someone read on that object, they can automatically read/write/etc on all the children

15:22:03 [Psychephylax]

And of course, if you go down the tree and grand permissions there, you can read/write/etc below but not above

15:22:29 [Psychephylax]

Now this dude is speaking my language: "As Rafael Schloming

15:22:30 [Psychephylax]

put it so aptly, Oracle can't deal with hierarchies for shit. "

15:22:40 [Psychephylax]

We need more textbooks like that

15:22:41 [ola]

heh

15:23:17 [ola]

we need more people like Rafael Schloming.

15:23:23 [Psychephylax]

indeed

15:23:49 [davb]

If I still all the nsds will I get the RAM back from a memoery leak?

15:24:15 [davb]

s/still/KILL

15:24:15 [ola]

and of course, there's inheritance.......

15:24:53 [davb]

right, an object can inherit its permissions frm the parent, or not.

15:25:03 [ola]

no, it's lost in a black hole;-)

15:25:08 [Psychephylax]

Dave, it should get rid of the memory leak but you gotta wait until the OS reclaims the memory

15:25:43 [davb]

Aha. I wonder how long that takes. So that is the secret of "You computer will be restarted now"

15:26:03 [Psychephylax]

lol

15:26:17 [Psychephylax]

Dave, I usually drop down to single user mode, then exit it

15:26:39 [Psychephylax]

frees up all the memory, kills all the zombies and such

15:26:58 [Psychephylax]

it's like brushing teeth without having to go to the dentist :)

15:27:13 [Psychephylax]

dentist = evil = reboot/shutdown

15:27:44 [Psychephylax]

11:36AM up 64 days, 1:33, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00

15:27:46 [Psychephylax]

:)

15:29:42 [Psychephylax]

aha

15:29:47 [Psychephylax]

I need to define my own privileges

15:33:20 [ola]

grant yourself write on /bin/laden and erase it...

15:33:56 [Psychephylax]

i'd rather have the execute one

15:35:08 [Psychephylax]

anyone good with sed?

15:36:58 [Psychephylax]

i want to edit the output and replace "file or directory" with "terrorist"

15:38:30 [davb]

argh. My server won't restart. It closed, but its not starting back up.

15:38:35 [davb]

AOLserver that is.

15:38:43 [Psychephylax]

did you drop down to single user mode?

15:39:05 [davb]

nope.

15:39:09 [davb]

Perhaps I should.

15:39:15 [davb]

Too bad I don't know what to type...

15:39:17 [Psychephylax]

indeed you should

15:39:20 [Psychephylax]

shutdown now

15:39:25 [Psychephylax]

then when it exits

15:39:27 [Psychephylax]

type "exit"

15:39:33 [Psychephylax]

to go back to multi

15:39:59 [davb]

I am accessing this machine remotely. I suspect that won't work.

15:40:09 [Psychephylax]

heh

15:40:14 [Psychephylax]

i suspect so either

15:40:21 [Psychephylax]

how remote is it?

15:40:33 [davb]

15 miles or so.

15:40:36 [Psychephylax]

heh

15:40:42 [Psychephylax]

you can always do shutdown -r now

15:40:44 [davb]

The other AOLserver restarted fine.

15:41:58 [davb]

Weird. The two other servers restarted fine. The OpenACS one is the only one that's screwed up.

15:42:16 [Psychephylax]

any errors?

15:42:36 [davb]

Not in the log. It says it shut down. But nothing else every goes into the log.

15:42:52 [Psychephylax]

hmmm

15:42:56 [Psychephylax]

just reboot it then

15:43:27 [chump]

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15:43:38 [davb]

There it goes

15:43:54 [davb]

it was up for 45 days or so.

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15:45:57 [ola]

* ola prays for davb's server to boot

15:46:01 [davb]

oh yeah, it was a memory leak

15:46:10 [davb]

49MB used.

15:48:20 [ola]

you might bypass the leak by setting minthreads = maxthreads

15:49:20 [davb]

probably not a bad idea. I am going to upgrade to aolserver 3.3 with jerry's patch.

15:49:58 [davb]

Where do I put that in my config file?

15:50:12 [davb]

And is 50 too many?

15:50:41 [ola]

In ns/server/servername I think

15:51:39 [ola]

but you don't need that with 3.3ad13

15:51:51 [davb]

Ok.

15:51:57 [ola]

only 3.2ad12

15:53:42 [davb]

Has anyone used 3.3+ad12 with the nsvhr patch?

15:53:50 [davb]

3.3+ad13 that is.

15:55:43 [ola]

yes, I have tried it out. not in production, though.

15:56:16 [davb]

I will let you know.

15:56:26 [ola]

ok

15:57:36 [Psychephylax]

aha

15:58:34 [ola]

that's the way, aha, aha......

15:58:38 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax puts out a cookie for Mark...

15:58:48 [Psychephylax]

He'll be here shortly

15:58:53 [davb]

argh! I can't download aolserver because arsdigita.com redirects my to HTTPS and I am in lynx.

15:59:05 [Psychephylax]

d'oh :(

16:00:05 [ola]

davd: I can email it to you.

16:00:17 [davb]

Thanks. dave@thedesignexperience.org

16:00:30 [Psychephylax]

This "Permissions Tediously Explained" doc is good...now it actually makes sense to me

16:01:08 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax recalls his Set Theory knowledge

16:01:31 [Psychephylax]

I remember sitting in class saying "When the hell am I ever going to use that....

16:01:38 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax realizes - The time has come

16:03:01 [alekhine]

later guys

16:03:05 [alekhine]

alekhine has quit

16:04:40 [Psychephylax]

What does "nuke this group" do?

16:05:52 [davb]

I think it removes all traces of the group from the database.

16:06:32 [Psychephylax]

hmmm

16:07:03 [Psychephylax]

Ok, I'm gonna write an e-mail to this guy asking him to rewrite every Computer Science book I have read

16:07:14 [Psychephylax]

With his explanations, stuff is actually VERY clear

16:07:16 [Psychephylax]

The above script would never get around to deleting this entry because it had to loop through a gazillion rows in

16:07:16 [Psychephylax]

the humongous acs_object_party_privilege_map view.

16:07:28 [Psychephylax]

makes sense to me!

16:07:57 [Psychephylax]

The textbook way of saying the same thing:

16:09:45 [Psychephylax]

This code is not the recommended way of executing a deletion due to the time constraints of the database

16:09:51 [ola]

grr. the darn thing is too big to attach..what to do?

16:10:00 [Psychephylax]

how big is it?

16:10:14 [ola]

~3400

16:10:24 [Psychephylax]

3.4 gigs?

16:10:37 [Psychephylax]

damn!

16:10:39 [davb]

I think rbm has it somewhere..

16:10:50 [Psychephylax]

Is it 3.4 megs?

16:10:53 [davb]

Really? You can't attach it? It pays you have your own mail server.

16:10:59 [ola]

no, megs

16:11:13 [Psychephylax]

well, 3400 megs = 3.4 gigs :)

16:11:21 [Psychephylax]

approximately of course

16:11:25 [Psychephylax]

stupid metric system

16:11:28 [ola]

3.4 MB

16:11:32 [Psychephylax]

ok

16:11:35 [Psychephylax]

give me the link

16:12:53 [ola]

it's my friggin webmail..

16:13:14 [Psychephylax]

you want 3.3+ad13

16:13:16 [davb]

Run you own. Qmail is cool.

16:13:19 [davb]

Yes, please.

16:13:22 [Psychephylax]

k

16:13:34 [ola]

I don't know how to attach in emacs client

16:14:43 [davb]

my neither I use mutt.

16:15:20 [Psychephylax]

here ya go -> http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Stu/nblyumbe/aolserver-src.tar.gz

16:15:53 [Psychephylax]

works?

16:16:19 [ola]

hey, fast server!

16:16:19 [davb]

yippee!

16:16:35 [Psychephylax]

:)

16:16:39 [Psychephylax]

OC4

16:16:41 [Psychephylax]

ack

16:16:42 [Psychephylax]

OC3

16:16:57 [ola]

~84kB/sec

16:17:01 [Psychephylax]

pshhh

16:17:06 [Psychephylax]

my cable modem goes that fast

16:17:07 [Psychephylax]

lol

16:17:14 [Psychephylax]

uploading

16:17:20 [ola]

sorry...~84kb/sec

16:17:21 [davb]

* davb hates Psychephylax's cable modem too.

16:17:30 [Psychephylax]

:)

16:17:39 [Psychephylax]

ok

16:17:46 [Psychephylax]

I read permissions tediously explained

16:17:48 [davb]

Mine is still DLing, Cheap DSL.

16:17:51 [Psychephylax]

got more permissions info?

16:18:26 [davb]

The rest of the secrets are encodeding the the code. Hey when you figure it out, right a howto for the rest of us :)

16:19:35 [Psychephylax]

right

16:19:36 [Psychephylax]

:P

16:19:44 [ola]

* ola wonders when his DocBook howto will be done

16:20:17 [davb]

The O'Reilly docbook book is free online now.

16:21:34 [davb]

12KB/s. Cheapskates. They actually are limiting the bandwidth.

16:21:43 [Psychephylax]

who?

16:21:48 [davb]

DSL ISP.

16:21:50 [ola]

yes. it's quite good, but too extensive

16:22:02 [davb]

Cool. I didn't know if you had read it.

16:24:49 [Psychephylax]

ok

16:25:00 [Psychephylax]

You guys are familiar with /admin stuff at all?

16:25:22 [davb]

in what way? I have used the pages, but not looked at the code.

16:25:52 [Psychephylax]

ok

16:25:58 [Psychephylax]

that's what I need help with..the pages

16:26:20 [Psychephylax]

I see: Site Map, Groups, Group Types, Relational Segments and Relationship types

16:26:46 [ola]

I hope Jerry hasn't run out of patches.. I downloaded a few erlier....

16:26:49 [ola]

:-)

16:27:12 [davb]

I think you can simplify that to just what you application needs. That is the full-features engineer interface.

16:27:19 [davb]

ola: I took the last one.

16:27:55 [Psychephylax]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong but the default ACS install has 2 parties

16:28:00 [Psychephylax]

administrator and main site member

16:29:43 [davb]

sounds good to me.

16:29:47 [Psychephylax]

Dave, what's the difference between "Group types" and "Groups"

16:30:11 [davb]

no idea. Probably an extra layer of permissions.

16:30:30 [davb]

So that you can have two groups inside a group type with similar basic permssions.

16:30:56 [davb]

The group system is very complex. The whole ACS is overengineered for the worst possible case application.

16:31:38 [davb]

But it is flexible and powerful. The impossible takss are possible and the simple tasks are incredibly complex.

16:31:42 [Psychephylax]

yeah they should have given a slimmer interface depending on needs

16:31:53 [davb]

That's your job :)

16:32:05 [Psychephylax]

heh

16:32:11 [Psychephylax]

so how do I define a group?

16:32:17 [davb]

We need a war stories bboard for OpenACS 4.

16:32:47 [ola]

war stories?

16:33:09 [Psychephylax]

ok

16:33:11 [davb]

Yeah like all the hell you went through actually building a site. Pratical experiences.

16:33:19 [Psychephylax]

yeah

16:33:23 [Psychephylax]

that's a good idea

16:33:42 [Psychephylax]

this way you can look at the info the other person read to get an idea of things

16:33:46 [til]

Psychephylax: to define a group first add a group type

16:33:53 [Psychephylax]

What is the "Application Groups"?

16:33:54 [til]

and then add a group of this type

16:34:23 [til]

in a group type you can define attributes that groups of this type will have

16:34:47 [Psychephylax]

ok, so I just added a supervisors group

16:35:20 [Psychephylax]

ok

16:35:26 [Psychephylax]

and defined a group SNMP Supervisor

16:35:49 [Psychephylax]

til, can you explain the attribute things a bit?

16:35:54 [til]

i think you need to decide which group type you new group belongs to

16:37:28 [Psychephylax]

so I have (Group) <-- Supervisor (Group type) <--SNMP Supervisors (group)

16:37:31 [til]

add a group type - you will see that there you can define attributes that can be used to characterize groups of this type

16:38:41 [Psychephylax]

like what kind of attributes?

16:39:12 [til]

i think if there will only be one group of this type and you dont need attributes then you could just make your snmp supervisors a group of a pre-existing type

16:40:26 [Psychephylax]

i'm going to have: manager, supervisor, user, admin

16:40:31 [Psychephylax]

admin is the openacs default

16:40:44 [Psychephylax]

user is the openacs regular member

16:40:52 [Psychephylax]

The manager is above a supervisor

16:41:08 [davb]

Cool 3.3+ad13 nsvhr works!

16:41:12 [Psychephylax]

And the special privileges of supervisors and managers is that they can create users

16:43:25 [til]

ah, group types can have child group types, like inherited classes. quite confusing at the beginning. the default group type "Groups" has a child "Application Groups"

16:44:05 [Psychephylax]

right

16:44:11 [Psychephylax]

What is this Application Groups?

16:44:24 [til]

don't know what Application Groups is for

16:44:34 [davb]

Look at it. Does it have any extra attributes?

16:44:46 [til]

define a new group type and you will see what is meant by attributes (i am still thinking for an example)

16:44:47 [Psychephylax]

Not sure how to look that up

16:44:57 [davb]

Click on it.

16:44:57 [Psychephylax]

i did define a new group type

16:45:02 [Psychephylax]

Supervisor

16:45:24 [Psychephylax]

oh i c

16:45:27 [Psychephylax]

Attributes:

16:45:33 [Psychephylax]

Group name

16:45:34 [til]

til has quit

16:45:48 [til]

til has joined #openacs

16:46:01 [markd2]

markd2 has joined #openacs

16:46:05 [Psychephylax]

aha!

16:46:24 [Psychephylax]

You must have been far away from the computer...this cookie *points* has been waiting for you for quiet a while

16:46:32 [markd2]

I felt a disturbance in the force

16:46:50 [Psychephylax]

:)

16:46:57 [Psychephylax]

I smelled the rum

16:47:03 [markd2]

heh

16:47:06 [Psychephylax]

Ahoy Matey!

16:47:13 [markd2]

arrrrrrrrr

16:47:25 [Psychephylax]

til, I see what attributes are used for

16:47:46 [Psychephylax]

here's a question for you

16:47:56 [Psychephylax]

I am not quiet clear on this

16:48:26 [Psychephylax]

Do I define my groups like Supervisor, Manager using sql code in my package-create.sql script or do I do this through OpenACS

16:48:46 [Psychephylax]

or can I technically do both...

16:49:21 [markd2]

if ya want the package to be reusable, do it in the sql script

16:49:34 [markd2]

e.g. you deploy your package in a production environemt, or sell it to someone

16:49:57 [markd2]

or donate your smntp pacakge to openacs :-)

16:50:28 [Psychephylax]

ok

16:50:57 [ola]

* ola wonders why AD has started running downloads via https

16:50:58 [Psychephylax]

Well, for now, I'll use the simpler UI

16:51:25 [markd2]

they've moved our intranet to https only / more frequent logins

16:51:33 [markd2]

so the download may have gotten sucked under that umbrella

16:51:52 [markd2]

maybe drop the webmonsters a note - I can imagine they don't want to be serving big files with https

16:51:53 [ola]

aha

16:52:37 [Psychephylax]

quick question

16:52:41 [Psychephylax]

I have a group

16:52:44 [Psychephylax]

Supervisor

16:53:08 [Psychephylax]

But i'm not exactly sure what I check against to see if a memeber is in that group

16:53:13 [Psychephylax]

How can I find this info out?

16:53:30 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax flashes a cookie to peak Mark's interest

16:53:50 [Psychephylax]

s/memeber/member

16:55:49 [davb]

You don't.

16:56:11 [Psychephylax]

Then how am I supposed to check to see if the user belongs to that group before serving him a page?

16:56:13 [davb]

You grant permissions on an object to that group.

16:56:30 [davb]

Then do ad_permission_p to see if that user has permission.

16:56:36 [Psychephylax]

ok

16:56:41 [Psychephylax]

how do I grant him permissions?

16:56:48 [Psychephylax]

in the user interface that is

16:56:48 [davb]

Aha.

16:57:10 [davb]

I don't know if there is a UI for that.

16:57:26 [davb]

I think each package has its own UI for permissions.

16:57:33 [Psychephylax]

hmmmm

16:57:54 [davb]

You should just do it all in an SQL file. What if your server dies and you need to reinstall the package.

16:58:52 [Psychephylax]

well, I am not 100% sure on how to do it in an sql file yet either

16:59:04 [davb]

You need the acs_permissions.grant_permission

16:59:06 [ola]

davb: do you know that, with new nsvhr, it is now possible to add/remove hosts without restarting the server?

16:59:08 [Psychephylax]

i was hoping that I can get some insight on how ACS does it first, then do it in an SQL file myself

16:59:17 [davb]

ola: no. thats cool.

16:59:33 [ola]

I think the permissions stuff is centralized

16:59:39 [davb]

I should read the doc for something before running it on my production server huh?

17:00:05 [KarlL]

KarlL has quit

17:00:12 [KarlL]

KarlL has joined #openacs

17:01:49 [markd2]

awww, live on the edge!

17:01:53 [davb]

Psychephylax: "To give a user permission to perform a particular operation on a particular object you call acs_permission.grant_permission like this:

17:01:53 [davb]

acs_permission.grant_permission (

17:01:53 [davb]

object_id => some_object_id,

17:01:53 [davb]

grantee_id => some_party_id,

17:01:53 [davb]

privilege => 'some_privilege_name'

17:01:54 [davb]

);

17:01:57 [davb]

17:02:08 [davb]

thats in doc/permissions.html

17:02:41 [Psychephylax]

hmmm

17:02:49 [Psychephylax]

ok

17:02:50 [Psychephylax]

I have that

17:03:06 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax shows his code

17:03:14 [Psychephylax]

declare

17:03:14 [Psychephylax]

v_group_id integer;

17:03:14 [Psychephylax]

default_context acs_objects.object_id%TYPE;

17:03:14 [Psychephylax]

begin

17:03:20 [Psychephylax]

default_context := acs.magic_object_id('default_context');

17:03:20 [Psychephylax]

select count(group_id) into v_group_id

17:03:20 [Psychephylax]

from groups

17:03:32 [Psychephylax]

where group_name='Manager';

17:03:32 [Psychephylax]

17:03:32 [Psychephylax]

if v_group_id = 0 then

17:03:32 [Psychephylax]

v_group_id :=acs_group.new (group_name => 'Manager');

17:03:32 [Psychephylax]

else

17:03:33 [Psychephylax]

select group_id into v_group_id from groups where group_name='Manager';

17:03:35 [Psychephylax]

end if;

17:03:58 [Psychephylax]

acs_privilege.create_privilege ( 'manager' );

17:03:58 [Psychephylax]

acs_privilege.add_child( 'manager' );

17:03:58 [Psychephylax]

17:03:58 [Psychephylax]

acs_permission.grant_permission( default_context, v_group_id, 'manager');

17:03:58 [Psychephylax]

end;

17:04:09 [davb]

* davb goes to lunch

17:04:33 [Psychephylax]

d'oh

17:05:54 [Psychephylax]

See, shouldn't my code cause ACS to show that there are Managers when I go to Groups or Group types?

17:15:46 [Psychephylax]

hmmmm

17:17:38 [davb]

not sure.

17:18:29 [talli]

talli has joined #openacs

17:18:29 [Psychephylax]

they are being stored

17:18:34 [Psychephylax]

Hey talli

17:18:36 [talli]

hey

17:18:37 [davb]

Hi talli.

17:18:57 [talli]

whoa. xemacs is here! call RMS!!! this is GPL land, buddy!

17:19:07 [talli]

hey daev

17:19:15 [Psychephylax]

lol

17:19:17 [davb]

I am not sure what you are trying to create with acs_privilige.create_privilege('manager')

17:19:59 [davb]

The privileges are read,write,create,delete,admin...

17:20:12 [Psychephylax]

create a new privilege?

17:20:35 [davb]

Ok. I get it now.

17:21:20 [davb]

You need to actually add something in add_child though. ('manager', 'read') etc...

17:22:29 [davb]

Are you trying to give permission for managers to create other users under their level?

17:24:19 [davb]

Psychephylax check out the cms-permssions.sql inside the CMS package. It is doing the kind of thing you want, only alot more of it.

17:24:35 [Psychephylax]

yes!

17:24:56 [Psychephylax]

where's the cms-permissions.sql?

17:25:11 [markd2]

in the cms package - an extra download

17:25:14 [davb]

in the CMS package. You probably have to check it out.

17:25:33 [Psychephylax]

I have the cms package

17:25:44 [davb]

its int he sql/oracle directory

17:25:50 [Psychephylax]

found it :)

17:25:52 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax reads

17:26:20 [Psychephylax]

but yes, Dave, I need to ive permission for managers to create other users

17:26:21 [Psychephylax]

under their level?

17:26:31 [Psychephylax]

as well as their own

17:26:36 [Psychephylax]

managers can create other managers

17:26:43 [Psychephylax]

but supervisors can only create regular users

17:27:11 [Psychephylax]

wow...Comments...

17:28:36 [davb]

Aha.

17:31:13 [Psychephylax]

hmmm

17:31:21 [Psychephylax]

not very good comments but ok...at least some comments

17:34:02 [Psychephylax]

ok

17:34:10 [Psychephylax]

is it me or is there no acs_privilege api?

17:34:21 [Psychephylax]

No results found

17:34:47 [davb]

acs_privilige

17:34:51 [davb]

?

17:35:00 [Psychephylax]

yeah

17:35:17 [markd2]

ugh. I hope it's not spelled privilige.

17:35:19 [Psychephylax]

acs_privilege.create_privilege('cm_admin', 'Administrator', 'Administrators');

17:35:49 [Psychephylax]

i tried looking for acs_privilege and create_privilege in both PL/SQL api and in TCL api and found nothing

17:35:58 [davb]

weird.

17:36:11 [Psychephylax]

yeah

17:36:50 [Psychephylax]

see

17:36:53 [Psychephylax]

my stuff is indeed there

17:36:54 [davb]

acs_permission.grant

17:36:57 [markd2]

cd /web/cookies; find . -name "*.sql" -exec grep acs_privilege {} \; -print

17:36:57 [Psychephylax]

GROUP_ID GROUP_NAME

17:36:57 [Psychephylax]

---------- ----------

17:36:57 [Psychephylax]

-2 Registered

17:36:57 [Psychephylax]

Users

17:36:57 [Psychephylax]

2177 Super User

17:36:58 [Psychephylax]

2180 Manager

17:37:00 [Psychephylax]

2183 Supervisor

17:37:02 [Psychephylax]

2239 Main Site

17:37:04 [Psychephylax]

Parties

17:37:04 [davb]

no wiat. thats for permission.

17:37:06 [Psychephylax]

2324 SNMP Super

17:37:08 [Psychephylax]

visor

17:37:51 [Psychephylax]

is there a way to find out if a user is in a group_id?

17:38:16 [davb]

\q

17:38:18 [davb]

oops

17:39:44 [davb]

Psychephylax: i think you need to look into the relationships stuff that is related to groups and permissions.

17:40:52 [Psychephylax]

Read that

17:41:23 [Psychephylax]

see, the problem is that the docs talk about how the system works in general

17:41:40 [Psychephylax]

like the hierarchy of parties and how groups relate to each other

17:41:54 [Psychephylax]

That's not the problem I have :/ it's the coding part

17:42:02 [davb]

right.

17:43:33 [Psychephylax]

Heh

17:43:48 [Psychephylax]

I just need some documentation on Roles and I think I got everything covered

17:49:05 [davb]

Yeah! My query does not require a connect by or similar structure.

17:49:18 [markd2]

woo hoo!

17:53:51 [Psychephylax]

0k

17:55:15 [markd2]

markd2 has left #openacs

17:55:29 [Psychephylax]

hrmmm

17:55:41 [Psychephylax]

so would I have to create my own context?

18:00:31 [Psychephylax]

Is there like a history type thing in Oracle?

18:02:25 [Psychephylax]

interesting

18:02:29 [Psychephylax]

very very interesting

18:04:20 [davb]

very^3 interesting

18:04:20 [talli]

talli has quit

18:05:13 [Psychephylax]

lol

18:05:21 [Psychephylax]

well

18:05:27 [Psychephylax]

my sql stuff definetly does work

18:05:34 [davb]

excellent

18:05:45 [Psychephylax]

I see my entries in all these places that according to the docs define relationships

18:05:46 [Psychephylax]

BUT

18:05:58 [Psychephylax]

It still does not answer the question of "WHY does it not work"

18:06:22 [Psychephylax]

and the fact that I don't know oracle is not helping

18:06:32 [Psychephylax]

I'm building queries that are like 8 times longer than mark can make

18:06:46 [davb]

It is possible that OpenACS is broken.

18:07:00 [Psychephylax]

Well, that doesn't help me very much! :p

18:07:19 [Psychephylax]

OpenACS better have a job for me when I get fired from here for not providing working stuff! :P

18:07:32 [davb]

It will work. Don't worry.

18:07:44 [Psychephylax]

deadlines!! deadlines!!!!!!

18:07:51 [Psychephylax]

Not yours...mine! :P

18:08:00 [Psychephylax]

That's why I wish they gave me something to code on my own

18:08:06 [Psychephylax]

not pick through stuff someone already coded for me

18:08:52 [Psychephylax]

Is it possible to create a query that does not stop?

18:08:58 [Psychephylax]

Like an infinite loop type deal?

18:09:05 [davb]

Probably.

18:09:16 [Psychephylax]

lol

18:09:20 [davb]

Yeah, I bet that doesn't help either.

18:09:27 [Psychephylax]

nope

18:09:47 [davb]

Ask a question on the bboard. People are actually using ACS 4 and OpenACS 4.

18:09:52 [davb]

Just not any of us yet...

18:11:30 [Psychephylax]

5100 rows selected.

18:11:39 [davb]

not too bad.

18:12:10 [ola]

davb: what did you do on ETP?

18:14:07 [ola]

you added keyword functionality, didn't you?

18:16:55 [davb]

yes. I am still working on it.

18:17:15 [ola]

I'm sure this is very useful, but, can you explain how?

18:17:57 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax shouts

18:17:59 [davb]

Well, basically I created procs to assign keywords to the content items. Basically its a UI. All the functions are in the CR

18:18:02 [Psychephylax]

Write a how-to!

18:18:14 [davb]

When I am done... good idea.

18:18:31 [davb]

BLURB: DavB will write a how-to-categorize your package

18:18:31 [chump]

A: DavB will write a how-to-categorize your package from davb

18:19:23 [davb]

oops. need a <br> in there.

18:20:04 [ola]

is it something like <meta> tags for search engines?

18:20:47 [davb]

no. Well you could do that if you wanted to in a template.

18:21:06 [davb]

It is for internal ACS use. I think the search package might use them, maybe not.

18:21:21 [ola]

ok.

18:21:22 [Psychephylax]

so what bboard should I post into?

18:21:41 [Psychephylax]

aand, what should I tell them to bypass all the "read the 'Permissions tediously explained'" answers

18:21:55 [davb]

Yeah, nicely though.

18:22:30 [davb]

Hopefully someone who has used the system will be able to point you in the right direction.

18:22:52 [Psychephylax]

i don't get it though

18:23:00 [Psychephylax]

If you guys are porters how come you're not running 4?

18:23:02 [davb]

ola: there is a table of keywords cr_keywords and a map cr_content_keyword_map or something like that.

18:23:16 [davb]

We are way to busy to fool with the group system.

18:23:25 [davb]

I only have 1 user.

18:23:56 [davb]

I am going to convert my site as soon as I finish working on ETP.

18:24:32 [davb]

ola: the keyword maps links any acs_object with a keyword.

18:25:15 [davb]

Say there are 100 keywords available. Would you like to click on each one to assign it and wait for the page to reload, or have a checkbox for each one?

18:25:20 [davb]

and one submit button.

18:26:19 [ola]

checkboxes, I guess.

18:26:51 [davb]

ok thanks.

18:27:08 [ola]

np:-)

18:27:52 [Psychephylax]

Hah!

18:28:00 [Psychephylax]

See --> http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0002cT&topic_id=12&topic=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Design

18:28:05 [Psychephylax]

I'm not the only one

18:28:11 [Psychephylax]

And nobody posted an answer

18:30:20 [ola]

well, that's just a fact of life - noone really knows this stuff...

18:31:05 [Psychephylax]

heh

18:31:08 [Psychephylax]

then why is it there?

18:31:09 [Psychephylax]

:P

18:31:21 [ola]

good point.

18:32:07 [Psychephylax]

If you put it there...at least document it! :)

18:32:12 [Psychephylax]

and document it well

18:36:45 [davb]

hey Psychephylax, we are on your side.

18:37:36 [Psychephylax]

I'm on your side too :)

18:37:57 [Psychephylax]

And I see that OACS has lots of potential

18:38:19 [Psychephylax]

but lacking of proper (looks around for Roberto) documentation is what makes it really hard to develop for it

18:42:47 [Psychephylax]

Hmmm: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0002r2&topic_id=12&topic=OpenACS%204%2e0%20Design

18:43:00 [Psychephylax]

i am out of dr. pepper

18:43:57 [davb]

break time.

18:44:15 [ola]

psyche: why don't you take out one of your cookies, so markd2 comes to your rescue?

18:46:33 [davb]

hmmmm...

18:47:24 [davb]

anyone know about ACS templating? I am trying to compare one tcl variable to another one in ane <if>

18:47:58 [ola]

I fiddled with it a bit.

18:48:18 [ola]

..so you can try and ask me...

18:48:31 [davb]

I have something like this: <if @all_keywords.keyword_id@ in @assigned_keywords@>

18:48:45 [davb]

I am trying to see if a keyword is already assigned so I can pre-check the checkbox.

18:50:13 [davb]

All the examples have literals after the operator.

18:50:23 [Psychephylax]

because mark probably won't help me

18:50:51 [ola]

is @assigned_keywords@ a list?

18:50:59 [davb]

yes. it should be anyway.

18:51:52 [ola]

hmm... lemme think.

18:52:09 [davb]

If I do @assigned_keywords@ i get 3317 3319 etc... all the ids.

18:52:49 [davb]

aha. it appears that keyword_id is not defined.

18:53:25 [ola]

well, have you tried the above code? it may work.

18:54:47 [davb]

It doesn't work. I do have the keyword ids. I can display them in the adp page.

18:56:09 [ola]

try: <if @all_keywords.keyword_id@ in

18:56:09 [ola]

@assigned_keywords@>

18:56:14 [ola]

err.

18:56:27 [ola]

try: <if "@all_keywords.keyword_id@" in

18:57:20 [Psychephylax]

oh man

18:57:22 [davb]

cool.

18:57:47 [davb]

nope, darn.

18:58:41 [davb]

Aha.

18:59:05 [davb]

If I hard code in the numbers it works fine. @all_keywords.keyword_id@ in 3373 3184 3372

18:59:21 [ola]

join the list to a string.

18:59:43 [davb]

How does that work?

19:00:42 [ola]

set string [join $list " "]

19:00:58 [davb]

cool.

19:02:01 [davb]

darn. that squishs them all together into one string.

19:02:26 [davb]

Seems like I might want to compare one passed in value with another one.

19:03:42 [Psychephylax]

lemme get this straight

19:04:44 [Psychephylax]

basically a party is like a mailing list, where you can add users or other mailing lists to the mailing list

19:06:27 [Psychephylax]

cool...an M&M that looks like a butt

19:06:39 [davb]

siamese M&M

19:06:44 [Psychephylax]

yup

19:07:08 [davb]

I think you have to use <list> to iterate through a list otherwise it doesn;t work.

19:07:42 [davb]

Then I would have to do <multiple>

19:08:18 [Psychephylax]

hmmm

19:08:24 [Psychephylax]

Interesting...

19:08:25 [davb]

It would be impossible. I think I can do it in the query so it ends up in the multirow datasource. But then I have to run a plpgsql function on every keyword.

19:08:39 [davb]

Could be time consuming.

19:08:54 [davb]

I think I need to write my OWN function to do a check like that.

19:09:57 [davb]

I still think the <if> should just work like that though.

19:11:21 [davb]

Now I know how Psychephylax feels. Every time he tries to do something, he almost has to reprogram another part of the ACS kernel to make it work.

19:12:54 [ola]

davb: maybe you can use a flag column in the multirow? and not ue "in"

19:13:30 [davb]

Yeah, I think I have to do it that way in the tcl file.

19:13:35 [ola]

what's wrong with the string? no spaces?

19:13:38 [davb]

I am just thinking of the best way.

19:14:06 [davb]

No the string looks great. I just think the template parser is not evaluating the @assigned_keywords@

19:14:28 [davb]

on the right side of the operator anyway.

19:14:41 [davb]

there is a function content_keyword__is_assigned

19:14:47 [Psychephylax]

aha!

19:14:53 [davb]

I don't want to have to run that for every row in cr_keywords.

19:14:54 [Psychephylax]

composition is transitive

19:15:01 [Psychephylax]

but membership is not

19:15:04 [davb]

ow, stop my head hurts!

19:15:09 [Psychephylax]

lol

19:16:05 [xemacs5]

xemacs5 has quit

19:16:22 [Psychephylax]

woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

19:16:27 [davb]

how can I serach for <if ?????? in ??????> with grep?

19:16:28 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax dances around his desk

19:16:41 [davb]

it is customary to say eureaka!

19:16:44 [Psychephylax]

was that enough 0's?

19:16:48 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax apologizes

19:17:02 [Psychephylax]

EUREKA! (and the bathtub overflows)

19:17:46 [davb]

* davb wishes he could do regexp

19:17:49 [Psychephylax]

now i Just have to remember how i did it

19:17:58 [Psychephylax]

for tcl?

19:18:04 [davb]

grep

19:18:19 [davb]

or whatever I need to find all the <if statements that have in in them.

19:18:57 [Psychephylax]

oh

19:19:09 [Psychephylax]

i think grep uses perl type regexps

19:19:23 [davb]

yeah I don't know perl or tcl regexp.

19:20:27 [Psychephylax]

muahahahahahaha!

19:22:24 [Psychephylax]

http://www.scriptics.com/doc/howto/regexp81.html

19:22:24 [ola]

too much Dr.Pepper?;-)

19:22:24 [chump]

B: http://www.scriptics.com/doc/howto/regexp81.html from Psychephylax

19:22:46 [Psychephylax]

B:| New Regular Expression Features in Tcl 8.1

19:22:46 [chump]

titled item B

19:23:14 [Psychephylax]

B: Tcl 8.1 now handles advanced regular expressions (REs). Previous regular expression handling is almost unchanged except that clumsy handling of escapes like \n has been much improved, and a few escapes that were previously legal (but useless) now won't work.

19:23:15 [chump]

commented item B

19:23:40 [Psychephylax]

TCL regexps

19:24:51 [Psychephylax]

ok

19:24:57 [Psychephylax]

my turn to ask another question about TCL :P

19:25:00 [Psychephylax]

<if @snmp_admin@ eq 1>

19:25:07 [Psychephylax]

checks to see if snmp_admin equals one

19:25:10 [davb]

yes

19:25:22 [Psychephylax]

is there a way to do if admin or supervisor eq 1?

19:25:54 [davb]

if @snmp_admin@ eq 1 or @snmp_supervisor@ ep 1>

19:26:02 [Psychephylax]

ok

19:26:04 [Psychephylax]

thanks

19:26:13 [davb]

you can use as many and or not as you want in there.

19:26:41 [davb]

All documentation should have examples.

19:27:10 [Psychephylax]

ok

19:27:24 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax gives Dave a cookie

19:28:17 [ola]

I think the templating system rocks. <include> is VERY poverful.

19:28:38 [ola]

powerful

19:28:40 [davb]

I like the templating system very much,

19:28:56 [davb]

I suspect it is because I am half designer/half programmer though

19:29:54 [ola]

<group> is also very cool.

19:31:12 [davb]

that is cool...

19:32:43 [Psychephylax]

anyone seen vinod around recently?

19:32:56 [davb]

no.

19:33:08 [Psychephylax]

is he on vacation or something?

19:33:50 [davb]

not sure. His web page was updated 9/18

19:34:04 [Psychephylax]

What's his webpage?

19:35:55 [ola]

http://www.kurup.com

19:35:56 [chump]

C: http://www.kurup.com from ola

19:37:46 [Psychephylax]

cool

19:37:49 [ola]

I like the design of that indexpage!

19:39:11 [markd2]

markd2 has joined #openacs

19:39:22 [davb]

Hey markd2

19:40:34 [markd2]

yo

19:40:39 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax gives Mark a cookie

19:40:51 [markd2]

* markd2 gains weight

19:41:39 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax gives mark money for liposuction

19:43:27 [Psychephylax]

Woohooo

19:43:32 [Psychephylax]

I solved my problem of the day

19:43:40 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax eats one of the cookies designated "For Mark"

19:43:43 [markd2]

huzzah! play time now

19:43:51 [Psychephylax]

yeah

19:44:03 [Psychephylax]

The next problem of the day is "What exactly happens when you click on the add user button"

19:44:23 [markd2]

"magic"

19:44:30 [Psychephylax]

yeah

19:44:36 [Psychephylax]

I'd like to just tell that to my boss

19:44:40 [davb]

read the code

19:45:44 [Psychephylax]

i know

19:45:51 [markd2]

use the source, fluke

19:45:56 [markd2]

fluke, I am your father.

19:46:05 [Psychephylax]

and modify it to insert his group types too

19:46:06 [markd2]

* markd2 breathes heavily

19:46:10 [Psychephylax]

Heh

19:46:19 [Psychephylax]

we joked like that when we were on the boat fishing for Fluke

19:46:42 [Psychephylax]

Caught one, open it's mouth saying "Fluuuuuke...*deep breath*...I am your father!"

19:46:56 [markd2]

heh

19:47:20 [Psychephylax]

hehe

19:47:28 [Psychephylax]

You guys gotta see this...

19:48:04 [Psychephylax]

d'oh

19:48:18 [Psychephylax]

I need to set up a terminal client so I can get to my desktop at home

19:49:49 [Psychephylax]

We got stuck on a sand bar when we went out

19:50:01 [Psychephylax]

I have pictures from that

19:50:15 [Psychephylax]

time lapse photography...sandbar getting bigger...and bigger...and BIGGER

19:50:21 [markd2]

heh

19:50:26 [Psychephylax]

That trip cost my friend and I 600$

19:50:36 [markd2]

I'm on a slow slow slow connection, so my imagination is probably more effective

19:50:39 [markd2]

ouch!

19:50:41 [davb]

http://gnosis.cx/publish/programming/regular_expressions.html

19:50:41 [chump]

D: http://gnosis.cx/publish/programming/regular_expressions.html from davb

19:50:53 [davb]

D:|Regular Expressions Tutorial

19:50:53 [chump]

titled item D

19:51:04 [Psychephylax]

for what language?

19:51:11 [Psychephylax]

:)

19:51:55 [markd2]

cool pictures

19:52:50 [Psychephylax]

?

19:52:54 [davb]

Anyway. All I want to go is give the regexp to grep. I am not sure how to pass it in. Do i need quotes or something?

19:53:00 [markd2]

on the regex site

19:53:10 [markd2]

davb: if it has shell metacharacters in it, yes

19:53:23 [markd2]

grep "*.spoons" file1 file2 file*

19:53:32 [davb]

Aha.

19:53:41 [davb]

cool thanks. That is not documented anywhere I could find.

19:53:42 [markd2]

or ls -1 | grep "*.ack"

19:54:01 [Psychephylax]

does anyone know how to make apache listen on a differnet port as well as 80?

19:54:02 [davb]

New junkyard wars on tonight.

19:54:12 [markd2]

Enterprise(tm) premiers tonight too

19:54:14 [davb]

edit httpd.conf

19:54:19 [Psychephylax]

yeah I know that

19:54:21 [davb]

yeah I just heard. Time for Tivo.

19:54:24 [davb]

:)

19:54:32 [markd2]

we're heading over to a friend's house to watch

19:54:42 [markd2]

* markd2 doesn have the teevee hooked up to the Outside World

19:54:47 [Psychephylax]

lol

19:54:50 [Psychephylax]

teevee is good

19:55:07 [markd2]

I easily slip very easily into Couch Potato mode

19:55:24 [markd2]

so it's dangerous to have a working tv around

19:55:29 [markd2]

save for the B5 and TNG tapes we already have

19:55:39 [Psychephylax]

lol

19:55:44 [Psychephylax]

you'd fit in with my bosses well

19:56:48 [Psychephylax]

See, I edit the Listen part of httpd.conf but it still does not listen

19:57:09 [Psychephylax]

and yes, I restarted

19:57:12 [davb]

Oh.

19:57:47 [Psychephylax]

aha!

19:57:49 [Psychephylax]

I goofed

19:59:00 [Psychephylax]

it listens to on 1084 but not on 8000

19:59:14 [davb]

weird. SOmething is already on there.

19:59:18 [Psychephylax]

nope

19:59:22 [Psychephylax]

but I'll try a diff port

19:59:34 [davb]

ok, just weird then.

19:59:53 [markd2]

nothing there as in verified with trying to telnet to that port?

20:00:43 [Psychephylax]

I portscan localhost

20:00:48 [Psychephylax]

doh

20:00:51 [Psychephylax]

stupid ass I am

20:02:22 [markd2]

ohwha tanass eyeam

20:02:37 [Psychephylax]

yes I am

20:02:52 [Psychephylax]

my firewall blocked the requests :P

20:02:59 [markd2]

heh

20:03:15 [davb]

well at least you know it works.

20:03:27 [Psychephylax]

i don't know that it works just yet

20:03:51 [davb]

the firewall :)

20:03:57 [Psychephylax]

oh

20:03:57 [Psychephylax]

lol

20:04:00 [davb]

egrep: better than grep

20:04:03 [Psychephylax]

yeah I knew that it works before I did that

20:04:09 [markd2]

I've never really used egrep

20:04:19 [markd2]

I always get confused oer what egrep vs fgrep vs regular grep do

20:04:58 [davb]

oh, just that the regexp seems to be easer to use. I have no clue.

20:05:05 [Psychephylax]

anyone familiar with ipfw?

20:05:21 [davb]

nope

20:10:59 [davb]

I don;t think there is an <if in> in the whole ACS

20:11:06 [davb]

but I can;t be sure, my regexp sucks.

20:14:39 [Psychephylax]

hmmm

20:15:08 [davb]

I think I am right. I found <if @info and <if @mime_type@ eq text/plain>

20:15:29 [davb]

So no where in the whole ACS is <if @stuff@ in "other stuff"> used.

20:15:35 [davb]

no wonder it doesn't work.

20:16:30 [vinod]

vinod has joined #openacs

20:16:43 [markd2]

yo vinod

20:16:49 [ola]

hi vinod

20:16:59 [vinod]

howdy everyone!

20:17:40 [Psychephylax]

It's Vinod!

20:17:48 [Psychephylax]

We were just talking about you

20:18:09 [vinod]

uh oh

20:18:12 [Psychephylax]

hehe

20:18:19 [Psychephylax]

Just wondering if you were alive

20:18:34 [vinod]

most of me seems to be working. the jury's still out though

20:18:49 [davb]

Hi vinod

20:18:50 [Psychephylax]

hmmm?

20:18:56 [vinod]

hey dave!

20:19:09 [davb]

markd2: did I ask you before about domain-based subsites in ACS 4/Tcl?

20:19:23 [vinod]

i've been taking a semi-self-imposed hiatus from the internet. family stuff, work stuff, etc..

20:19:30 [davb]

Good idea.

20:20:21 [markd2]

devb: no

20:20:26 [markd2]

I dunno if they exist / work or not

20:20:36 [davb]

I figured as much.

20:21:04 [davb]

I will email the person who said that a patch existed. He should know.

20:21:41 [Psychephylax]

Vinod, you check your e-mail recently?

20:22:39 [vinod]

yeah, i'm still a few days behind though... why?

20:23:05 [Psychephylax]

I e-mailed you :)

20:23:19 [vinod]

ahh... lemme search

20:24:16 [Psychephylax]

i've made progress since that e-mail though

20:24:53 [vinod]

what are you having trouble with now?

20:25:37 [Psychephylax]

Figuring out how to create a user (but when creating a user setting him to belong in a group) instead of just creating a user

20:25:48 [talli]

talli has joined #openacs

20:25:55 [Psychephylax]

wb talli

20:26:12 [talli]

whoa. vinod's here

20:26:18 [Psychephylax]

:)

20:26:32 [vinod]

hey talli!

20:27:34 [Psychephylax]

hmm

20:27:51 [Psychephylax]

I think I'll have to create a relation on my own

20:28:09 [Psychephylax]

hmmmm

20:28:50 [Psychephylax]

Do I do sql insert/update statements in my tcl thing or do I write a function somewhere to use for that instead?

20:28:51 [vinod]

Psychephylax: have you created a group yet?

20:28:54 [Psychephylax]

yes

20:29:01 [Psychephylax]

And I can add members to those groups as well

20:29:34 [Psychephylax]

The code I used for reference did almost what I needed

20:29:50 [Psychephylax]

it just never added the new uber-people to the group

20:30:17 [davb]

Psychephylax: you need a special two-step page. That creates the user then adds him to the group.

20:30:54 [Psychephylax]

technically I only need one..but I need a separate function/procedure dealie to add the user to the group

20:31:06 [davb]

yes. thats it.

20:31:14 [Psychephylax]

i just have to figure out what to insert where

20:31:23 [talli]

vinod: where have you been? did you get lost in the radiology department again?

20:31:37 [Psychephylax]

lol

20:31:58 [vinod]

no one told me that 'Xray' wasn't the same as 'eXit'

20:32:07 [Psychephylax]

bahaha

20:32:20 [markd2]

heh

20:32:20 [talli]

did hey make you where those little gowns that show your ass?

20:32:32 [talli]

wish i was there for that one.

20:32:44 [vinod]

i know you do, you sick puppy

20:32:48 [Psychephylax]

:/

20:34:25 [Psychephylax]

Maps the specified user to the specified group in the specified role; if the mapping already exists,

20:34:26 [Psychephylax]

does nothing.

20:34:45 [Psychephylax]

is this saying that I can tell ACS to have user belong to a group as manager?

20:34:49 [vinod]

Psychephylax: that sounds like what you need

20:35:12 [Psychephylax]

aha

20:35:35 [vinod]

user: user121321, group: manager, role: member

20:35:57 [davb]

BLURB: All the TCL proc APIs and PL/Pgsql APIs need to be in the docs, not just the API browser

20:35:58 [chump]

E: All the TCL proc APIs and PL/Pgsql APIs need to be in the docs, not just the API browser from davb

20:36:03 [Psychephylax]

so first I need a select to find out what user_id is the person, then one for the group and then run that with those 2 arguments?

20:36:39 [vinod]

well, if you've just created the user, you'll already have the user_id

20:36:49 [Psychephylax]

right

20:36:56 [Psychephylax]

what's this role thing they're talking about?

20:37:03 [Psychephylax]

I'm not quiet sure about "role" stuff yet

20:37:07 [davb]

bye (going home)

20:37:07 [vinod]

each group can have any number of roles

20:37:10 [davb]

davb has quit

20:37:12 [Psychephylax]

is that derived from the db

20:37:28 [vinod]

for now, you can ignore it and just make everyone in the 'member' role

20:37:36 [Psychephylax]

oh

20:37:38 [markd2]

dismembers only

20:37:47 [vinod]

it's just more fine-grained permissions within a group

20:38:31 [vinod]

markd2: that was that popular jacket back in the 80's, right?

20:38:47 [Psychephylax]

so my call would be [ad_user_group_add $user_id, 'member', $group_id] where group_id is determined from a select statement that finds the actual group_id when searching for "Manager"

20:39:06 [vinod]

correct

20:39:10 [Psychephylax]

woohoo

20:39:18 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax goes to figure out the way to find out the manager ids

20:39:46 [markd2]

vinod: or that great cinematic masterpiece "I dismember mama, may she rest in pieces"

20:39:59 [vinod]

haha

20:40:07 [Psychephylax]

Aha!

20:40:16 [Psychephylax]

select group_id from groups where group_name='Manager';

20:40:40 [vinod]

bingo.

20:41:11 [Psychephylax]

I can abstract it by reading what user type the person is adding by passing it from the forms page into the next tcl page

20:41:16 [Psychephylax]

:0

20:41:28 [Psychephylax]

This ADP stuff is cake once you spend 2 months figuring it out

20:41:43 [vinod]

correct again

20:41:45 [Psychephylax]

The key is not to get fired before your 2 months are up

20:41:48 [ola]

dismember is a swedish death metal band

20:41:49 [vinod]

Psychephylax is on a roll

20:41:56 [markd2]

ooooh

20:42:00 [Psychephylax]

death..that sounds so violent

20:42:17 [ola]

heh

20:42:29 [markd2]

I get really confused about all the different kinds of Heavy Metal:

20:42:29 [markd2]

deathcore, grindcore, hardcore, bellcore. Which kind is which?

20:43:06 [markd2]

(for those who don't get the joke, BellCore was the telco research wing before it got turned into Lucent)

20:43:22 [vinod]

* vinod pulls out his death metal classification workbook

20:43:22 [Psychephylax]

lol

20:43:33 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax gives Mark a cookie

20:43:45 [Psychephylax]

Mmmm...Dr. Pepper

20:43:46 [markd2]

gonna ruin my appetite for dinner

20:43:49 [markd2]

but I take it anyway

20:43:53 [Psychephylax]

Vinod, is Dr. Pepper deadly?

20:43:57 [Psychephylax]

:)

20:44:05 [vinod]

markd2: hey.. i'm watchin you

20:44:08 [Psychephylax]

I'm about to go get my 3rd can

20:44:30 [vinod]

Psychephylax: well, if you're eating the cans...

20:45:59 [Psychephylax]

no just sucking the liquid out of them

20:46:29 [vinod]

i think you're ok then. anything endorsed by a Doctor has to be good ;-)

20:46:33 [Psychephylax]

rofl

20:46:35 [Psychephylax]

ok then!

20:47:12 [Psychephylax]

ok

20:47:16 [Psychephylax]

I'm confused on this command

20:47:24 [Psychephylax]

set user_id [ad_user_new $email $first_names $last_name $password "" "" "" "t"

20:47:29 [Psychephylax]

"approved" $user_id]

20:47:31 [Psychephylax]

now

20:47:35 [Psychephylax]

that's how they add a user

20:47:47 [Psychephylax]

but why is it set user_id [function]

20:48:05 [markd2]

the function creates a new user.

20:48:08 [markd2]

and then returns the id of that user

20:48:13 [markd2]

since you don't know the id before you call it

20:48:55 [Psychephylax]

oh

20:49:28 [Psychephylax]

so the function has a return value of type int which happens to be the user_id

20:50:11 [Psychephylax]

why isn't ad_user_new in the API?!

20:50:29 [markd2]

yeah

20:50:33 [markd2]

although there ar no types in tcl :-)

20:51:24 [talli]

talli has quit

20:51:38 [Psychephylax]

yeah yeah

20:51:41 [Psychephylax]

they're all strings or ints

20:51:42 [Psychephylax]

:P

20:52:11 [markd2]

just strings :-)

20:52:18 [markd2]

which sometimes get interpreted as ints

20:52:31 [markd2]

actually, strings and arrays are the types

20:52:57 [Psychephylax]

ok, well, http://www.arsdigita.com/api-doc/proc-view?proc=ad%5fuser%5fgroup%5fuser%5fadd

20:53:02 [Psychephylax]

does not tell me if it has any returns

20:53:32 [Psychephylax]

so I don't actually "set " anything i just tell it to go [ad_user_group_user_add par1 par2 par3]

20:53:37 [Psychephylax]

and hope it does what it's supposed to?

20:54:47 [markd2]

yep

20:54:57 [vinod]

correct. click on the 'show source' button. it's a pretty simple proc

20:55:10 [markd2]

having the user_id would probably be handy for doing things to the user

20:57:39 [Psychephylax]

like killing him

20:57:40 [Psychephylax]

hehe

20:58:13 [vinod]

we don't kill users. we 'dismember' them

20:59:10 [markd2]

gotta learn the lingo

20:59:17 [Psychephylax]

gah

20:59:30 [Psychephylax]

are the parameters separated by commas or just spaces?

20:59:38 [markd2]

in tcl, spaces

20:59:44 [Psychephylax]

aha

20:59:55 [Psychephylax]

last question

21:00:03 [Psychephylax]

what's the default role? member?

21:00:49 [vinod]

i think it's 'member', but that's just off the top of my head

21:00:58 [Psychephylax]

aha

21:01:07 [Psychephylax]

I can use my handy dandy l33t oracle skillz to look that stuff up

21:01:57 [vinod]

gotta go eat! see y'all later

21:02:16 [Psychephylax]

bye bye

21:02:36 [til]

til has quit

21:05:35 [Psychephylax]

member it is

21:06:38 [Psychephylax]

hmmm

21:06:51 [Psychephylax]

This is a question about bridging oracle to tcl

21:07:19 [markd2]

suspension bridges, definitely

21:07:35 [Psychephylax]

what's that?

21:07:39 [Psychephylax]

oh

21:07:40 [Psychephylax]

heh

21:08:19 [Psychephylax]

I need to take the number my select query returns and set a tcl variable to that

21:08:24 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax looks at Vinod's code

21:08:52 [Psychephylax]

aha

21:09:02 [Psychephylax]

declare

21:09:07 [markd2]

* markd2 declares

21:09:08 [Psychephylax]

variable type;

21:09:19 [Psychephylax]

select bah into variable;

21:09:29 [Psychephylax]

close?

21:11:09 [markd2]

in pl/sql, I think so

21:12:58 [Psychephylax]

do I need pl/sql for this?

21:13:03 [Psychephylax]

or is there a shortcut of some sorts?

21:13:35 [markd2]

I dunno

21:13:57 [Psychephylax]

ok

21:13:59 [markd2]

if you're just doing a query into a var, you can use set var [db_string blah "select count(*) rom cookies where recipient = 'markd2']

21:14:09 [markd2]

er, From cookies

21:14:13 [markd2]

my 'F' key is failing me

21:14:14 [Psychephylax]

lol

21:15:06 [Psychephylax]

so I could do set group_id [db_string <what's blah> "select user_id from acs_relations]

21:15:15 [Psychephylax]

what's blah?

21:15:30 [markd2]

check db_String docs

21:15:35 [markd2]

it's like the name of the query

21:15:51 [Psychephylax]

k

21:16:03 [markd2]

and the query has to return one row

21:16:07 [markd2]

use a different command for multiple rows

21:16:50 [Psychephylax]

what's the other command for multiple rows?

21:17:01 [markd2]

db_foreach?

21:17:59 [Psychephylax]

oh

21:19:13 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax tries and hopes this works

21:24:51 [Psychephylax]

hmmmm

21:24:54 [Psychephylax]

Here's a problem

21:25:21 [Psychephylax]

aside from Manager and supervisor in my groups table how do I find out what the normal users are

21:29:13 [markd2]

ugly?

21:29:26 [Psychephylax]

no

21:29:45 [Psychephylax]

I'm trying to figure out what regular users are

21:29:58 [Psychephylax]

i mean what group they go to

21:31:21 [Psychephylax]

it's gotta be somewhere here in the db

21:32:30 [Psychephylax]

any ideas?

21:32:40 [Psychephylax]

oh

21:32:45 [markd2]

dunno

21:32:46 [Psychephylax]

here's a nice workaround

21:32:48 [Psychephylax]

lol

21:32:49 [markd2]

they might not be a member of any group

21:32:53 [Psychephylax]

you're right

21:33:01 [Psychephylax]

that's why I'm going to check to see who the person is...

21:33:06 [Psychephylax]

before running a tcl script

21:34:35 [Psychephylax]

hmmmm

21:35:09 [Psychephylax]

hmm

21:35:09 [Psychephylax]

ok

21:35:27 [Psychephylax]

I suppose I can do:

21:35:55 [Psychephylax]

if user_type eq 'manager' or user_type eq 'supervisor' then select group_id from the table

21:35:57 [Psychephylax]

else nothing

21:36:13 [Psychephylax]

this way, if the person is trying to add a manager or supervisor I will find out what group they are in

21:36:17 [Psychephylax]

otherwise, it's just a regular user

21:38:15 [Psychephylax]

now if I can only figure out how to do what i just said I'll be in business

21:39:21 [markd2]

heh

21:40:00 [Psychephylax]

ok

21:40:44 [Psychephylax]

my form passes user_type over to user-add-2.tcl

21:40:58 [Psychephylax]

user-add-2.tcl yanks that out in the contract part

21:41:09 [Psychephylax]

then I compare user_type to 2 strings

21:44:52 [Psychephylax]

Aha!

21:44:56 [Psychephylax]

How does this look:

21:45:07 [Psychephylax]

if { $user_type = "Manager" or $user_type = "Supervisor" } {

21:45:07 [Psychephylax]

set group_id [db_string group_find "select group_id from groups where group_name = $user_type];

21:45:07 [Psychephylax]

21:45:07 [Psychephylax]

[ad_user_group_user_add $user_id 'member' $group_id]

21:45:08 [Psychephylax]

}

21:45:48 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax departs to recycle 3 cans of Dr. Pepper.

21:47:21 [ola]

ola has quit

21:47:28 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax returns weighing 3 pounds less

21:47:36 [Psychephylax]

no sorry....24 ounces less

21:49:18 [markd2]

heh

21:49:59 [Psychephylax]

Mark, that look right to you?

21:50:38 [markd2]

24 ounces?

21:50:38 [Psychephylax]

or should I be using string compare?

21:50:49 [markd2]

oh. more stuf scrolled by. lemme read

21:50:51 [Psychephylax]

well, technically 36 but I didn't finish 1 more

21:50:58 [markd2]

well, == instead of =

21:51:01 [Psychephylax]

ok

21:51:05 [KarlL]

no need to use string compare

21:51:19 [markd2]

yeah

21:51:34 [markd2]

you'd need to use sting compare if there's a chance you could have a string that's just digits

21:51:34 [Psychephylax]

ok

21:51:40 [Psychephylax]

oh

21:51:45 [markd2]

then tcl tries to do "manager == 23" as integer math

21:51:49 [markd2]

and barfs quite messily

21:52:04 [Psychephylax]

lol

21:52:07 [Psychephylax]

how about this

21:52:10 [KarlL]

unless you are comparing really long strings of digits, like credit cards, which can cause direct comparison to blow out because of integer conversion

21:52:17 [Psychephylax]

Things I'm not positive about

21:52:41 [Psychephylax]

($user_type == 'Manager"

21:52:48 [Psychephylax]

Which quotes am I using

21:52:55 [Psychephylax]

and...are they even necessary?

21:53:09 [KarlL]

Quotes are necessary for comparison in if statements. this special rule...

21:53:10 [Psychephylax]

man, I really need to go pick up that TCL book

21:53:31 [Psychephylax]

ok, then which ones are the correct ones?

21:53:38 [KarlL]

prevents many programming errors, where you say ... if {bar == 4} { ... instead of ... if {$bar == 4} ...

21:53:43 [Psychephylax]

I know one set allows for variable expansion while another one does not

21:53:50 [KarlL]

if {$user_type == "Manager"} ...

21:53:53 [Psychephylax]

ok

21:55:14 [KarlL]

if it's in curly brackets, variable expansion doesn't occur before execution, but "if" knows that its first argument is an expression, so it will call Tcl_ExprObj or whatever the C function is for evaluating expressions, and that function will perform variable expansion where it's needed

21:59:51 [KarlL]

in fact, it is dangerous or a guaranteed bug to write while statements like this ... while [condition] {stuff} ... instead of this ... while {[condition]} stuff ... because in the former case the interpreter will evaluate the square bracketed stuff before while even begins, so if the condition returns true, the while will be an infinite loop

22:00:10 [KarlL]

biab

22:02:57 [Psychephylax]

Psychephylax has quit

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Psychephylax has joined #openacs

22:10:27 [Psychephylax]

lovely

22:10:56 [Psychephylax]

Our building had a brownout

22:11:02 [Psychephylax]

Killed all of the servers

22:11:29 [Psychephylax]

ping 167.206.9.143

22:11:31 [Psychephylax]

ack

22:12:11 [Psychephylax]

gonna go try to get rednet up

22:12:16 [Psychephylax]

hopefully my files are safe

22:12:50 [Psychephylax]

Oh well

22:12:52 [Psychephylax]

this bites

22:12:57 [Psychephylax]

So I'm going home

22:12:59 [Psychephylax]

Psychephylax has quit

23:06:07 [markd2]

markd2 has left #openacs

23:14:48 [xemacs5]

xemacs5 has joined #openacs

23:15:04 [rbm]

FSF Emacs!! :)

23:15:28 [rbm]

brb

23:15:30 [xemacs5]

jumping back on to see if ne1 can answer my internationalization q's

23:32:31 [Psychephylax]

Psychephylax has joined #openacs

23:32:35 [Psychephylax]

Hey all

23:35:57 [xemacs5]

hey

23:40:49 [Psychephylax]

* Psychephylax ctl+x ctl+f /usr/vinod

23:41:08 [xemacs5]

rm -rf /bin/laden/*

23:58:31 [Psychephylax]

brb

23:58:48 [Psychephylax]

Psychephylax has quit