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00:18:56 <benford.openprojects.net> topic is: Welcome to the OpenACS Helpline | http://www.openacs.org/
00:18:56 <benford.openprojects.net> Users on #openacs: loggy til davb shagster_ AaronSw abbaJ chump rbm 
00:18:56 <ChanServ> This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
00:29:07 <davb> http://peterme.com/archives/00000063.html
00:29:08 <chump> F: http://peterme.com/archives/00000063.html from davb
00:29:19 <davb> F:|Innovation in Classification
00:29:20 <chump> titled item F
00:30:00 <davb> F: innovation refers to the use of faceted catgorization. Faceted categorization is not new, but its use it not as widespread according to this article.
00:30:01 <chump> commented item F
00:30:09 <davb> F: Plenty of links for further reading 
00:30:09 <chump> commented item F
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01:28:15 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  We'll be restarting services in a moment.  There will be the usual accompanying splits.  Thanks in advance for your understanding.
01:29:08 <shagster_> Hmmmm.....helping.org is an AOLserver site...
01:30:40 <davb> aha: "
01:30:40 <davb> Helping.org is an easy-to-use, one-stop online resource designed to help people find volunteer and giving opportunities in their own communities and beyond. With customizable services and comprehensive information, it's never been easier?or more secure?to donate your time, services, or financial support.
01:30:40 <davb> ".org" means we are nonprofit
01:30:40 <davb>     * 100% of all transaction and administrative costs are covered by the AOL Time Warner Foundation. We take 0% cut or commission from online donations
01:30:41 <davb>     * users pay no fees or costs
01:30:43 <davb>     * nonprofits pay no fees or costs
01:30:45 <davb>     * Helping.org accepts no advertising
01:30:47 <davb>     * lists of contributors and volunteers are private, not shared with or sold to anyone
01:30:49 <davb>     * users receive records of contribution for tax purposes
01:30:51 <davb> Customer Service
01:30:53 <davb> So that we may provide you with the best possible service, please click on the link that best applies to you: Nonprofit Professionals or Individuals.
01:30:56 <davb> Helping.org partners
01:30:59 <davb> Helping.org is a partnership between the AOL Time Warner Foundation and its nonprofit partner
01:31:00 <davb> "
01:31:06 <davb> argh!
01:31:15 <davb> anyway the last part is the bit I was trying to post.
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01:34:38 <ChanServ> ChanServ has changed the topic to: Welcome to the OpenACS Helpline | http://www.openacs.org/
01:34:46 <ChanServ> This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
01:34:48 <shagster_> yea, well I didn't see that till AFTER I sent that...
01:37:17 <davb> np. It's still an AOLserver site. We need all the support we can get. At least we know they are still using it.
01:42:15 <shagster_> Yea, I keep looking for things.
01:42:38 <shagster_> I'm moving more and more projects to AOLserver, always nice to have some sites to show them
01:44:13 <shagster_> shagster_ is now known as shagster
01:48:20 <davb> Right. Noone has asked me yet about my technology so I haven't had to worry about it.
01:59:40 <shagster> I usually don't either, but I still like to be prepared
02:01:12 <shagster> Ahh, after two weeks, I finally had a long enough time to collect my thoughts
02:01:15 <shagster> http://web.mminternetgroup.com/articles/aftermath
02:01:15 <chump> G: http://web.mminternetgroup.com/articles/aftermath from shagster
02:07:42 <davb> Nice. 
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02:11:20 <shagster> thanks...
02:11:43 <shagster> been a while since I wrote anything beyond techinical stuff
02:21:29 <shagster> Hmm, time to finish up acs-mail, acs-message testing...
02:22:26 <davb> time for me to finish rewriting static-pages. Lots of fun.
02:25:07 <shagster> yes, I need that! LOL
02:25:11 <shagster> Need any help?
02:27:42 <davb> I am not sure. I have to redesign it so that it takes more advantage of the content-repository. Right now it stores a copy of the static-page in the database, or rather it did. I hacked it to use the file method. It serves the file directly from static-pages. I think the way it is currently programmed the CR could not find the content to provide it for search.
02:28:39 <shagster> Hmm, that does sound a bit tricky...
02:29:19 <davb> for some reason static-pages has its own table sp-folders instead of using the folders in the CR. 
02:30:12 <shagster> aD must not have finished it...
02:30:14 <davb> Actually it stores the exact same data in the CR.
02:30:39 <shagster> ?!
02:30:42 <davb> Yeah I know they didn't. I am going to finish it up and hand it off to someone else who actually uses it :)
02:30:55 <davb> the sp-folders says : Holds the folder hierarchy, mirroring the structure of the folders in
02:30:56 <davb>         the content repository.  Used for navigating through the static
02:30:56 <davb>         pages in a hierarchical manner
02:31:59 <shagster> Hmpf
02:32:26 <davb> Aha. SP has a table that stores the filename. I don't need that table at all. The filename is in the CR now. not sure about show-comments-p though. I might need a helper table anyway.
02:35:25 <shagster> In a system like acs, static pages always going to be tricky
02:35:39 <shagster> Might be worth it to look for a "new way" to do it...
02:36:10 <davb> Sure. It's mainly for migrating an existing client site I would guess.
02:37:02 <shagster> I've used it to add comments and links to a mailing list archive, but I think there are better ways to approach it for that...
02:37:45 <shagster> I've just never done it...
02:38:55 <davb> I guess I need to keep sp_folders. It captures information thats not in cr_folders apparently.
02:39:34 <shagster> Of course it does, otherwise it would make things easy :)
02:49:43 <davb> Aha. After taking a month off I think I see how it has to be done. Constructive procrastination wins again!
02:49:57 <shagster> always does :)
02:54:52 <davb> The scary part is modifying the content-repository to support the changes to static-pages to allow filesystem storage outside the default CR file storage location.
03:00:53 <davb> thanks for typing with me about this...it's very helpful to be ablt to think outloud or on the keyboard.
03:01:06 <shagster> Sure, no problem....
03:01:27 <shagster> Just doing my part to help while the football game is on :)
03:04:50 <davb> :)
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13:01:08 <ola> how are you doing over yonder?
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13:19:30 <davb> I am just fine thanks.
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13:32:29 <ola> shagster helped you have a minor break-through on static-pages, I see.. 
13:32:46 <ola> shag is a good football coach:-)
13:33:26 <davb> well now I just have to write the code.
13:46:34 <ola> davb: have you tried that thing called XP. gummy bears and all that stuff?
13:57:13 <ola> Extreme Programming
13:58:21 <davb> Nope, I am not sure what I do can actually be called programming.
14:00:01 <shagster> * shagster wakes up..hey, I heard my name
14:00:17 <ola> hey shag!
14:00:23 <ola> thanks!
14:00:29 <davb> probably /msg
14:00:37 <davb> what client are you using?
14:00:49 <shagster> hello peoples :)
14:00:56 <davb> Hi shagster
14:01:32 <ola> davb: I'm using epic4
14:02:29 <shagster> if you are using epic /msg <nick> 'message test' should work for ya
14:03:43 <ola> cool. davb says it's working!
14:04:32 <davb> Aha. ola, your messages are a different color sometimes. How are you sending those?
14:04:49 <ola> shagster: are you using djbdns as well as daemontools?
14:05:25 <ola> I hacked my client a bit.
14:05:28 <davb> I use it. Very nice.
14:05:32 <davb> aha.
14:05:49 <shagster> I use dnscache, but I haven't moved to tiny-dns yet
14:06:08 <davb> yeah, actually I don't use dnscache, just tiny-dns
14:06:15 <ola> davb: no I was kidding, different colors? when?
14:06:31 <shagster> Now that i
14:06:35 <shagster> *grr*
14:06:57 <shagster> Now that I'm more comfortable with tiny-dns I'll be migrating to it
14:07:26 <davb> Aha. i
14:07:35 <davb> I think my client highlight messages with my nick in them.
14:07:37 <davb> Interesting.
14:08:23 <ola> I will migrate to tinydns as soon as possible because I have troubles with Bind -
14:08:54 <shagster> Actually, I never really had trouble with bind, tinydns is just some much easier to admin
14:08:55 <ola> every time granitecanyon goes down I go down:-(
14:09:37 <davb> I setup my tinydns to use granitecanyon as secondary DNS
14:10:21 <shagster> Hmmm, I never had a problem with the secondary going down
14:10:26 <ola> I never quite understood how to tell tinydns what is the secondary dns...
14:11:10 <shagster> for a ns record ?
14:11:25 <ola> yes.
14:12:20 <ola> its the delegation part I found hard to grasp.
14:12:22 <davb> I should have written it down, I forgot how I did it.
14:13:20 <ola> Well I will write it down as I make it all the way.
14:15:05 <shagster> For the most part, I keep internal DNS servers, with register DNS servers that are just secondaries that pull the info from the internal DNS servers
14:15:40 <ola> I love/hate being behind a firewall. dns and mail is so much harder to grasp for a non-admin like me.
14:17:57 <ola> I want to have the primary dns on a host behind the firewall. that's how it is now, but I'm not 100% sure it's working as it should:-)
14:18:44 <davb> Aha. You should just have to forward the correct port 53/UDP i think to the internal server
14:18:59 <shagster> My 'real' dns servers on in the DMZ, but they only do secondary hosting.....
14:19:10 <davb> I just put my DNS on a machine directly connected to the internet.
14:19:15 <shagster> I just have them pull records from various internal servers
14:19:15 <ola> if I understand DJB's FAQ correctly the primary dns ought to be ON the firewall itself.
14:19:34 <davb> That's the easiest way.
14:20:23 <ola> ok. ipfwadm 53/UDP. NOT 53/TCP?
14:20:39 <shagster> Well, I have about 15 different clients.  I just setup a small dns server, running webmin, let them control their own DNS on their own little box
14:20:52 <shagster> TCP is for transfers
14:21:02 <shagster> UDP is for look ups...
14:21:44 <davb> Aha.
14:21:50 <davb> * davb learns something.
14:22:04 <ola> * ola too!
14:22:13 <shagster> if you look at DJB's dns page, it gives a fairly good explaination of it (better than I could ever do )
14:23:10 <ola> yes, it' good - yours is too;-)
14:23:49 <ola> another question:
14:24:24 <shagster> sure, makes me look busy :)
14:24:37 <ola> I have two ip addresses. how can I access them on one ethernet card?
14:24:41 <ola> heh
14:25:00 <shagster> you can aliases them
14:25:13 <shagster> basically ifconfig eth0 <ipaddress> <netmask>
14:25:25 <shagster> ifconfig eth0:0 <ip address> <netmask>
14:25:26 <ola> maybe I can run my own secondary dns on the same host as primary..
14:25:33 <shagster> (that is for linux)
14:26:09 <shagster> You could, since djb's tinydns does bind to specific ip address
14:26:25 <shagster> of course, then if you lose one interface, you lose both :)
14:28:17 <ola> great. I wouldn't mind skipping granitecanyon altogether:-)
14:29:38 <davb> I used to use my ISP for secondary DNS. But my new ISP wants $10/month per domain and like $75 for setup. 
14:30:05 <ola> that sucks.
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14:30:57 <davb> Yes. I am in a DSL void. At least there is one provider. I am saving up for a new server so I can colocate it and be done.
14:32:58 <ola> I've sacrifised my closet and have a fast ADSL line so I mostly do my own colocation.
14:34:29 <markd2> * markd2 lives out in the sticks and relies on trained chipmonks with flashlights for connectivity
14:34:51 <ola> lol
14:35:58 <shagster> Me wonders why webalizer chaned the default language to french on a few sites! LOL
14:36:17 <ola> I was lol when I read something Don said about having servers under the kitchen table. - well, that's me:-)
14:38:30 <ola> davb: how much is your DSL a month? and what's the speed?
14:41:55 <davb> Its $99 for 128k/128k. Way overpriced. No competition around here since Covad pulled out.
14:42:33 <davb> Mine are actually in the garage of my parent's house. I live 7 miles away. No DSL here.
14:43:31 <davb> I would have shut it off since I moved except for that little "contract" i signed.
14:45:29 <markd2> mmm.. bondage
14:47:18 <ola> hmm.. hate to say this but i pay around 25$/month for 2.4MB downstream, 800kB upstream, including 1 ip.
14:48:04 <ola> you should move to Sweden...
14:50:50 <davb> Cool. 
14:50:52 <ola> hmm.. 128/128. is that ISDN?
14:51:10 <markd2> the price and speed sound like ISDN
14:51:16 <davb> No just cheapskate DSL. They max out at 786k due to cheap equipment.
14:51:25 <markd2> I've (supposedly) got 112/112 ISDN for extortionist fees
14:51:36 <davb> Its a rinky-dink local operation. 
14:51:42 <markd2> actual performance is much, much lower
15:03:27 <ola> 112/112 is strange. here the B-channels are 64kb/s each. different ISDN standards?
15:03:46 <markd2> our infrastructure is so old they only support 56kb/each
15:04:05 <ola> is that so?:-)
15:04:21 <markd2> my  gramma in law about 6 km from here still has pulse dialing
15:06:05 <ola> those were the days. taking a minute to dial a number.
15:06:15 <davb> Wow. 
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15:09:58 <talli> morning guys
15:10:07 <markd2> greetings
15:11:04 <davb> Hi
15:12:31 <ola> argh! I forgot my login and password. found out my user_id is 2215 at least...
15:17:10 <ola> cool. libertyunites.org runs on AOLserver3.4
15:18:04 <davb> Thats interesting because you can see both AOL and Microsoft are founding partners.
15:21:34 <davb> When should I use a switch instead of a series of If then elseif?
15:21:41 <davb> or does it not matter?
15:22:43 <markd2> styleistic more than anything
15:22:51 <markd2> I'd imagine the performance would be about the same
15:23:59 <davb> OK. Thats what I thought, but I have no experience to base it on.
15:28:36 <shagster> Wow, there are currently 663 sites @ uptime.openacs.org
15:32:59 <ola> cool. you are hosting it, right?
15:34:03 <shagster> yep...
15:34:51 <shagster> little SS1000 just keeps chugging along :)
15:36:00 <ola> SS1000?
15:36:11 <shagster> SparcServer 1000 
15:36:31 <ola> aha
15:37:26 <shagster> I figure it should be able to handle around ~5000 sites 
15:40:24 <ola> ok. I'd better hurry then:-)
15:42:11 <shagster> heh
15:56:55 <ola> has anyone any experience with iptables?
16:00:13 <ola> it would be nice to migrate to iptables soon since ipchains has some drawbacks.
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16:36:10 <talli> dave, you there?
16:36:33 <talli> i have a debian problem i can't figure out and the freaks at #debian ignored me
16:37:35 <markd2> damn those freaks!
16:37:52 <talli> tell me about it
16:40:24 <davb> Hi.
16:40:31 <talli> hey
16:40:37 <davb> What's up?
16:40:51 <talli> so my problem is that i get an error when i try and install X
16:41:18 <davb> using apt-get or dpkg or some other method?
16:41:19 <talli> after apt-get install x-window-system, it craps out on trying to install xlibs-4.1.0-6.deb
16:41:23 <talli> apt-get
16:41:35 <talli> but it breaks on dpkg 
16:41:39 <davb> aha. What sort of error message?
16:41:56 <talli> it says that it cannot overwrite a directory
16:42:30 <davb> You have not installed X previously? Which directory?
16:42:56 <talli> no, i haven't installed it before
16:43:26 <davb> OK. Mine was preinstalled with the system. I just changed the sources to unstable and did upgrade and it worked. 
16:43:32 <talli> lemme see if i can find which directory it is. i wrote it down. my guess is /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults
16:44:01 <talli> that's the one
16:44:09 <talli> it says it is also in package groff
16:44:30 <talli> i tried to delete the directory (i know, perhaps a bit extreme) but it gives me teh same error
16:44:43 <davb> weird. groff must have X settings that it stuffed in there even though you weren't using X.
16:45:25 <talli> any idea how to get rid of them?
16:45:30 <talli> should i deinstall groff?
16:45:36 <talli> can i deinstall groff?
16:46:01 <davb> You could try. Check whats in that directory. I bet a bunch of utilties have stashed stuff in there and groff is just the first.
16:46:21 <davb> What version of apt-get do you have? type apt-get by itself
16:47:51 <davb> Also did you upgrade your system to testing or unstable?
16:48:11 <talli> testing
16:48:13 <talli> woody
16:48:19 <talli> apt-get install dist :)
16:50:26 <davb> I suspect there is an apt option to force the install. I am not sure what it is or how it might screw up your system.
16:51:57 <rbm> moo?
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16:53:21 <rbm> what's up doc?
16:54:47 <davb> Yeah rbm is here! 
16:55:41 <docwolf> howdy
16:56:08 <talli> hey guys!
16:57:27 <talli> i did apt-get -f install and dpkg still crapped out
17:01:42 <davb> is there anything besides groff in that directory?
17:01:46 <rbm> talli: What are you trying to install?
17:02:51 <rbm> talli: I got it.
17:03:07 <rbm> talli: Have you tried removing groff then installing X and reinstalling groff?
17:04:57 <talli> how do i deinstall groff?
17:05:02 <talli> apt-get deinstall groff?
17:05:11 <rbm> apt-get remove groff
17:05:17 <talli> ah, remove
17:05:24 <talli> wait, i think i did apt-get -r groff
17:05:25 <rbm> Yeah. V! you know?
17:05:34 <rbm> errr.
17:06:09 <rbm> what does "dpkg -l | grep groff" tell you?
17:07:52 <talli> hmm... i'll have to reboot
17:08:25 <talli> i'll try apt-get remove groff, and see what happens. i think it mentions some dependencies, but i'll try anyway. -f forces the command, right?
17:09:01 <talli> anyway, see you on the other side ....
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17:24:31 <talli> hey
17:24:38 <talli> i'm having a really wierd time with debian
17:25:52 <talli> i can't install anything because there are packages with unment dependencies that rely on > xlibs_4.1.0
17:26:41 <talli> but i can't install xlibs_4.1.0-6.deb because it breaks dpkg, namely that it cannot overwrite the file /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/apt-defaults
17:26:44 <talli> any ideas?
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17:42:42 <markd2> is there a way in the acs4 UI to grant someone site-wide-admin?
17:47:03 <rbm> where the heck did tally go?
17:47:22 <rbm> What does he mean by "breaks dpkg"?
17:49:03 <rbm> * rbm heads to class
18:01:15 <til> markd2: grant admin to /permissions/one?object_id=0
18:07:52 <markd2> thanks
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20:56:41 <Psychephylax> Ahoy maties!
20:59:28 <markd2> arrrrrrrrrr.  avast ye!
20:59:35 <Psychephylax> Aye aye!
20:59:47 <markd2> * markd2 hands Psyche a bottle of rum
20:59:47 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax gives mark a cookie
20:59:54 <Psychephylax> Fair exchange! :)
20:59:56 <markd2> fair trade
20:59:59 <markd2> LOL
21:00:13 <Psychephylax> :/
21:00:18 <Psychephylax> What's new on the openacs front?
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21:58:26 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  One of our main hubs, farmer, is getting ready to reboot for an upgrade to FreeBSD 4.4.  It will be rebooting several times before the server comes back.  Please bear with us and apologies for the inconvenience.
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22:00:35 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Here we go.
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22:42:17 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  Services will be coming up momentarily.
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22:45:28 <ChanServ> This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
22:45:38 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] That should do it for now, thanks for your patience.
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