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00:23:29 <sagan.openprojects.net> Users on #openacs: loggy rbm davb AaronSw chump GEM shagster_ abbaJ 
00:23:30 <ChanServ> This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
00:59:34 <davb> moo
01:01:44 <rbm> hey davb
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14:28:36 <Psychephylax> morning
14:28:40 <markd2> hiya
14:28:43 <Psychephylax> :)
14:28:49 <Psychephylax> Wooohoooo it's friday
14:29:50 <davb> Hi.
14:30:38 <Psychephylax> :)
14:34:56 <Psychephylax> must debug code :(
14:35:07 <davb> that's what we do
14:35:14 <Psychephylax> affirmative
14:35:38 <davb> I am renaming all the procs and variables in my code that I am building...
14:35:50 <Psychephylax> hehe
14:35:53 <Psychephylax> been there, done that
14:36:24 <davb> luckily its one tcl library file and two tcl www pages and one adp
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14:39:09 <Psychephylax> hmmm
14:40:50 <Psychephylax> Say in my package-create file, I need to have multiple special groups
14:41:01 <davb> OK you do.
14:41:08 <davb> create them.
14:41:10 <Psychephylax> Would those be separate procedures
14:41:24 <Psychephylax> or would I do it in one single block?
14:41:29 <davb> I think so. 
14:41:32 <Psychephylax> k
14:41:34 <davb> seperate i think.
14:41:46 <davb> but it will work either way. thats a style issue.
14:42:18 <Psychephylax> heh
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14:46:32 <forward.openprojects.net> topic is: http://openacs.org Free Web Toolkit
14:46:32 <forward.openprojects.net> Users on #openacs: loggy til GEM scribe-Aaron rbm chump Psychephylax davb abbaJ 
14:46:32 <ChanServ> This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
14:49:59 <davb> wheeeeee!
14:50:53 <Psychephylax> lol
14:52:45 <davb> I need to compare two lists. old_keywords and new_keywords. If a keyword is in old, but not new delete it. If its in new, but not old, add it. Do I need to make two passes through the lists?
14:54:18 <Psychephylax> Well, you'd need more than 2
14:55:03 <Psychephylax> I would do this:
14:55:21 <Psychephylax> nested loops to check to see if the keyword in old exists in new...If it does then delete it
14:55:47 <Psychephylax> that'll take one word from old, and check every word in new to see if it exists
14:56:05 <Psychephylax> then, after you're done cleaning out the old list...
14:56:31 <Psychephylax> take the new list and check to see if the word is new but not in old using the same strategy but add it instead to old
14:56:36 <rbm> moo
14:56:39 <davb> i don't necessaryily need to do that. I can use lsearch to detemine if exists in both or not. TCL is handy for manipulating lists.
14:56:42 <Psychephylax> Look, a lame cow!
14:56:45 <davb> hi rbm
14:57:13 <davb> * davb wishes he knew what he was doing instead of just winging it...
14:57:24 <Psychephylax> Don't we all?
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14:59:52 <davb> namespace question: if I am in a proc in the etp:: namespace and want to call another proc in the etp:: namepsace I can just call the name without etp:: right?
15:03:33 <Psychephylax> mmmmm..mini donuts
15:04:28 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax gives loggy and chump a b0t cookie
15:04:47 <davb> hey Psychephylax are those out of a machine?
15:05:02 <Psychephylax> yup!
15:05:07 <davb> I thought so.
15:05:11 <Psychephylax> :-)
15:05:16 <Psychephylax> Gotta feed myself somehow!
15:06:55 <Psychephylax> I wouldn't get them at my school though
15:07:17 <Psychephylax> infact, I wouldn't get many things at my school...like an education! 
15:07:23 <Psychephylax> *rim shot*
15:08:14 <Psychephylax> Look! A lame cow!
15:08:23 <Psychephylax> ummm
15:08:29 <Psychephylax> I'm seeing things 
15:08:43 <davb> uhoh... what's in those donuts??
15:08:48 <Psychephylax> i dunno
15:09:05 <Psychephylax> maybe I looked up instead of down
15:09:09 <davb> good. don't look.
15:10:26 <Psychephylax> if {[ad_permission_p $package_id admin]} { 
15:10:36 <Psychephylax> does this check to see if the person is of admin status?
15:10:55 <rbm> * rbm has to go to class. bbl
15:11:00 <Psychephylax> and would it be if {[ad_permission_p $package_id supervisor]} { if I have a supervisor
15:11:04 <Psychephylax> bye bye rbm 
15:11:05 <davb> seems to be. 
15:11:16 <davb> check the api browser...
15:11:21 <Psychephylax> k
15:11:32 <davb> admin might be a magic keyword, not a row in a table
15:11:42 <Psychephylax> lol
15:11:44 <Psychephylax> oops
15:13:34 <Psychephylax> ummm
15:13:41 <Psychephylax> These don't really tell you much :)
15:13:56 <Psychephylax> Not like java api where it tells you what it does, how to use it and a nice primer too
15:14:18 <davb> sometimes it does... or you can guess. Perhaps a look at the code...
15:20:11 <Psychephylax> Dave, was it you that was telling me about file watch?
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15:20:51 <davb> yeah
15:21:02 <Psychephylax> ok
15:21:19 <Psychephylax> how you turn that on?
15:22:11 <davb> go to apm, pick a package, manage file information, then click watch for the file.
15:22:29 <davb> If you have added files, they might not show up on that screen. at the bottom you can scan for new file.
15:25:19 <Psychephylax> hrm
15:25:24 <Psychephylax> I don't have the option to watch them
15:25:37 <davb> weird. what kinda files are they?
15:25:46 <Psychephylax> adp/tcl
15:26:20 <davb> aha, no need. they are read when you hit the page. Just hit reload if it loads a cached version.
15:26:34 <Psychephylax> hmm?
15:26:47 <Psychephylax> oh
15:26:52 <Psychephylax> It's done automatically?
15:28:11 <davb> No, its not done at all. They are web pages so they are sourced when someone accesses the page. 
15:28:25 <Psychephylax> oh
15:28:33 <Psychephylax> what files were you talking about then?
15:28:48 <davb> tcl library files in package/yourpackage/tcl
15:28:53 <davb> and xql files that go with them.
15:29:01 <Psychephylax> oh...library files
15:29:03 <Psychephylax> :D
15:29:20 <davb> The XQL files in the www directory also can be watched I believe because they are cached on startup.
15:30:53 <davb> I am closing in on basic categorization functionality for ETP
15:31:24 <Psychephylax> hmmm
15:31:26 <Psychephylax> i'm confused
15:32:05 <davb> about?
15:32:09 <Psychephylax> well
15:32:19 <davb> I have that effect on people...
15:32:25 <davb> :)
15:32:25 <Psychephylax> in my sql creation script, I create group definitions - correct?
15:32:34 <davb> Sure. 
15:32:48 <davb> if they are special groups for your package.
15:33:05 <davb> IT WORKED!!
15:33:05 <Psychephylax> indeed they are
15:33:07 <davb> cool.
15:33:19 <Psychephylax> ok, then in my tcl/adp pages, I can check with ACS  to see if a person is a member of that group
15:33:25 <davb> oops its broken again/
15:33:28 <Psychephylax> lol
15:33:32 <davb> I would say that is a good idea.
15:33:39 <Psychephylax> Right, that's what I figured
15:33:41 <davb> you went to all that trouble to create the group.
15:33:45 <Psychephylax> then why am I getting this:
15:34:04 <Psychephylax> snmp_manager isn't a valid privilege
15:34:04 <Psychephylax>     while executing
15:34:06 <Psychephylax> "error "$privilege isn't a valid privilege""
15:34:46 <davb> aha. its not expanding the variable... I wonder why.
15:34:52 <davb> Show me the whole line of code.
15:35:33 <Psychephylax> if {[ad_permission_p $package_id snmp_manager]} { 
15:35:33 <Psychephylax>         set snmp_manager 1 
15:35:33 <Psychephylax> } else { 
15:35:33 <Psychephylax>         set snmp_manager 0 
15:35:33 <Psychephylax> } 
15:35:58 <davb> aha, so its in ad_permission_p that its screwing up, not your script.
15:36:19 <Psychephylax> but why is it screwing up?
15:36:26 <Psychephylax> Because I didn't create users properly, right?
15:36:36 <davb> you can probably do set snmp_manager [ad_permission_p $package_id snmp_manager]
15:36:54 <Psychephylax> back up
15:36:57 <davb> no. It is passing $privilige to the query instead of 'privilige'
15:37:13 <Psychephylax> shouldn't it be privilege?
15:37:32 <davb> it should be whatever privilige you pass in, snmp_manager in this case.
15:37:41 <Psychephylax> hold on
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15:37:58 <Psychephylax> lemme check to make sure my creation script does it properlt
15:38:02 <Psychephylax> properly
15:38:04 <talli> hey guys
15:38:08 <Psychephylax> hi talli 
15:38:11 <davb> hi talli!
15:39:27 <Psychephylax> hmm
15:39:33 <Psychephylax> I think I know
15:39:51 <Psychephylax> in my script I create manager not snmp_manager
15:40:43 <davb> that would do it.
15:40:45 <Psychephylax> w00t!
15:40:47 <Psychephylax> :D
15:40:54 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax 's brain comes to a screeching halt
15:43:26 <davb> Cool. Now I can add and delete keyword categories.
15:44:09 <Psychephylax> cool
15:44:15 <Psychephylax> you'll have to help me when I get to that part :D
15:44:27 <Psychephylax> ok, I got a silly question
15:44:36 <davb> ok.
15:44:41 <Psychephylax> I have no need for site/pvt/home
15:44:49 <Psychephylax> for separate users
15:44:54 <davb> So don't link to it.
15:44:57 <Psychephylax> how do I get rid of it?
15:45:10 <davb> Good question. I am not sure. what package is it part of?
15:45:15 <Psychephylax> sub-site
15:45:23 <Psychephylax> I was thinking of symlinking it back to the root
15:45:37 <Psychephylax> go here: http://spot.eng.cv.net:8080
15:45:40 <Psychephylax> and register
15:45:42 <davb> Yeah or just replace it with ad_returnredirect "/"
15:45:56 <davb> or is it ns_...
15:46:01 <Psychephylax> :D
15:46:08 <davb> whatever just a redirect. I don't know which is better.
15:46:12 <davb> same result.
15:46:35 <Psychephylax> :D
15:46:46 <Psychephylax> hmmm
15:47:01 <Psychephylax> I need to host my website somewhere until my ISP removes the port 80 block
15:47:32 <davb> yeah. Thats annoying. Albany Roadrunner is wide open still. They reprogrammed the modems yesterday, but it still works.
15:48:59 <Psychephylax> hmm?
15:49:06 <Psychephylax> The block or the lack thereof?
15:49:09 <davb> port 80. my ISP didn;t block anything.
15:49:15 <Psychephylax> That's a good thing!
15:49:28 <Psychephylax> It's mad funny
15:49:44 <davb> yeah its cool. I thought it might be blocked.
15:50:17 <Psychephylax> the reason we got blocked (it pays to work for Cablevision) is that the ACK packets were flooding the 3Com sharkfin modems and the USB drivers could not handle it
15:50:23 <Psychephylax> from code red
15:53:30 <davb> aha
15:53:34 <Psychephylax> hmm?
15:53:43 <davb> nevermind.
15:59:19 <Psychephylax> work is such a drag
15:59:24 <Psychephylax> I wanna set up a game server instead :D
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15:59:41 <Psychephylax> wb
15:59:47 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax gives Mark a cookie
15:59:57 <markd2> mmm.. cookies
15:59:59 <markd2> * markd2 fills out expense reports
16:00:10 <Psychephylax> :)
16:01:13 <Psychephylax> i'm glad my company has an open policy on messaging clients
16:01:59 <Psychephylax> ok
16:02:01 <Psychephylax> I got a question =D
16:02:05 <markd2> oke
16:02:12 <markd2> "can't be done, sorry"
16:02:20 <markd2> * markd2 holds out his hand for another cookie
16:02:23 <Psychephylax> in my index.tcl I have a check to see what type of a user the person is
16:02:30 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax gives mark another cookie
16:02:45 <markd2> mmmm.. cookies...
16:02:59 <Psychephylax> Then according to type he can see links related to him..like a manager can see manager links but not supervisor links
16:03:09 <Psychephylax> which redirect him to snmp/manager
16:03:15 <Psychephylax> which happens to be a folder
16:03:36 <markd2> ok
16:03:55 <Psychephylax> in the folder there's an index.adp for his menu...Now, do I have to check his permissions again...so people can't just type host/snmp/manager and use manager tools?
16:04:17 <markd2> yep
16:04:25 <Psychephylax> so I have to do this for every page?
16:04:39 <markd2> there may be some way you can do it for the whole hierarchy
16:04:47 <markd2> I don't know enough to say if there's something like that or not
16:04:50 <Psychephylax> I could have sworn you can do that
16:05:08 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax goes "doc hunting"
16:05:18 <markd2> * markd2 quacks
16:05:37 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax gets out his 12 gauge Remi
16:13:07 <Psychephylax> hmmmm
16:13:32 <Psychephylax> hmmmm
16:13:49 <davb> I need to pass the results from a multiple select box to a tcl page. How do I set that up in ad_page_contract so the resulting page can accept the values?
16:14:15 <Psychephylax> Is there a way to prevent people from registering ?
16:14:50 <markd2> davb: can yo udo it as a list?
16:14:59 <markd2> psyche: you could always remove the /register pages :-)
16:15:15 <davb> retrict register pages to admins
16:15:24 <Psychephylax> well
16:15:33 <Psychephylax> that's good
16:15:40 <Psychephylax> since everyone needs to be added
16:15:52 <davb> anyway. I know I need a list in the tcl page. But I don't know how to setup the select box on the adp page to pass it in the correct format so the tcl page can read it.
16:16:26 <davb> I have this<select name="new_keyword_list" multiple size="2"><option value="2691">Information Design</option><option value="2706 " selected>Design</option>
16:16:53 <davb> anyway it passes new_keyword_list=value1&new_keywordlist=value2 etc...
16:17:11 <Psychephylax> someone wanna try registering?
16:17:16 <Psychephylax> http://spot.eng.cv.net:8080
16:17:16 <chump> A: http://spot.eng.cv.net:8080 from Psychephylax
16:17:21 <Psychephylax> yesh
16:17:26 <Psychephylax> A:|Ignore please!
16:17:27 <chump> titled item A
16:17:41 <Psychephylax> A: Chump needs a "remove link" feature
16:17:42 <chump> commented item A
16:17:50 <davb> I'll get it!
16:17:52 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax chokes chump 
16:18:30 <davb> nope. it gets me to the enter your password again page. its not checking for privilege before serving up the register/index page
16:18:33 <markd2> how much choke could a chump choke choke if a chump choke could choke chumps?
16:19:18 <Psychephylax> ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
16:19:49 <Psychephylax> Dave, you're trying to register and it's not letting you?
16:20:07 <davb> no it is!
16:20:13 <Psychephylax> arg!
16:20:19 <Psychephylax> I told it to have a "closed" policy
16:20:25 <davb> It should not even display the login page.
16:20:30 <davb> I would hope anyway.
16:20:34 <Psychephylax> well
16:20:37 <Psychephylax> No, it should
16:20:43 <Psychephylax> existing users with acounts should be able to log in
16:20:56 <Psychephylax> But you shouldn't be able to register
16:21:06 <davb> oh yeah. Well I typed in my email and password and it brought me to the next screen.
16:21:28 <davb> I didn't go any farther. But that is the new registration screen. which I assume you want closed.
16:23:45 <davb> aha, the docs actually do have the answer to my question!
16:25:02 <markd2> woo hoo!
16:25:03 <davb> yippee! It works.
16:26:43 <davb> I have the basic feature that allows you to specify if an ETP application is categorized or not. If it is it allows you to add or remove categories from a content_item. 
16:26:57 <talli> you are dope, dave
16:26:59 <talli> excellente
16:27:01 <talli> tanks
16:27:39 <davb> Now the tricky part is to create a couple of procs to allow template designers/programmers to use the categories.
16:27:50 <Psychephylax> my boss is on the phone
16:27:53 <Psychephylax> blech
16:28:01 <Psychephylax> *sigh*
16:28:07 <davb> it must be hard to answer that way. Ask him to sit somewhere else.
16:28:08 <Psychephylax> I love how he's "managing" blindly :D
16:30:12 <markd2> * markd2 has no management skills
16:30:21 <markd2> that why I've kept myself out of the management track so far
16:36:09 <Psychephylax> hmmm
16:36:16 <Psychephylax> Do I design new pages for adding users
17:00:21 <Psychephylax> ok
17:00:25 <Psychephylax> this might be a stupid question
17:00:32 <Psychephylax> but how do i add people to specific groups I created?
17:03:45 <talli> talli has quit
17:11:12 <davb> theres a page somewhere.
17:11:28 <davb> look at /admin/
17:11:36 <davb> I think theres a link to groups or something.
17:13:01 <davb> OK I am on the url_omitted.org mailing list. Everyone lost this login to the web site, so the admin said email ME you username and password. So they all reply to the list with their username and password.
17:13:27 <davb> I would have thought after they all got the first persons email, it would have stopped.
17:14:02 <davb> I think we should start teaching mailing list remark that I have not mounted the search package. Does it only happen as long
17:14:02 <davb> as the search package hasn't been mounted? Looking in the current log (now that
17:14:02 <davb> I have mounted the search package), search-init loaded fine.
17:14:10 <davb> oops.
17:14:29 <davb> I think we should start teaching mailing list etiquette in school.
17:17:29 <Psychephylax> lol
17:19:51 <Psychephylax> geez
17:19:54 <Psychephylax> Ram is so cheap
17:19:58 <Psychephylax> 256mb for 28$
17:20:06 <Psychephylax> I remember paying 90$ for 64mb
17:20:19 <Psychephylax> in the "Great memory shortage of '00"
17:29:58 <davb> Psychephylax I rememeber paying $40 for 1 meg. (and I walked 15 miles to school uphill both ways too, yeah)
17:30:14 <davb> Oh yeah, $40 for 1 meg was considered cheap at that time...
17:30:49 <davb> I mean "we were glad to pay it!"
17:31:06 <markd2> a meg!  Gee, I remember when an extra 16K was a luxury
17:31:14 <markd2> * markd2 gets out his walker and scoots around the living room
17:32:31 <davb> I do too, but I don't remember the price...
17:32:55 <til> til has quit
17:33:03 <Psychephylax> lol
17:36:00 <Psychephylax> hmmm
17:36:01 <Psychephylax> lost again
17:40:11 <Psychephylax> ok
17:40:19 <Psychephylax> how should I remove users?
17:40:29 <Psychephylax> ack
17:40:43 <Psychephylax> instead of me typing this all out, can someone tell me where most of the /admin scripts are?
17:42:10 <markd2> I always forget
17:42:59 <Psychephylax> admin/relations/add?exact%5f
17:43:02 <Psychephylax> i need that page
17:43:42 <Psychephylax> aha!
17:43:46 <Psychephylax> sub-site/admin/
17:44:18 <davb> remember the whole ACS is a subsite that can have subsites of its own. 
17:47:00 <Psychephylax> d'oh they use form templating
17:47:14 <davb> that is a pain...
17:47:43 <Psychephylax> i need to see the code to write one of my own! damn it
17:47:45 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax hacks oracle
17:47:47 <davb> Is there an official opinion on that. Supposedly it the templating stuff is only when you are not using the rest of the ACS according to the templating systems docs.
17:48:49 <Psychephylax> I'm trying to make some forms for adding/removing users of different powers
17:49:03 <Psychephylax> And the /subsite/admin/ stuff uses templating as far as I can tell
17:49:03 <davb> you should only need one page.
17:49:14 <Psychephylax> how's that?
17:49:24 <Psychephylax> I'll need at least 2 sets
17:49:38 <Psychephylax> 1 for supervisors to be able to add users
17:49:44 <davb> It checks the level of the admin and only lets him creat the level below himself...
17:49:52 <davb> or one for create and one for delete anyway...
17:50:05 <Psychephylax> and 2 for managers to add managers and supervisors
17:52:10 <davb> just have a dynamic drop down for group. it only displays the groups the user is allowed to create.
17:53:20 <Psychephylax> hah
17:53:29 <Psychephylax> If i knew how to do that I wouldn't have a problem would I :P
17:53:56 <davb> Oh yeah. well anyway, get it working first. You can always tweak that stuff later.
17:57:49 <Psychephylax> heh
18:01:46 <Psychephylax> aha!
18:01:55 <Psychephylax> I can just check on what type of a user the person is
18:02:01 <Psychephylax> and give him a different box
18:02:16 <davb> that will work.
18:26:54 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax sighs deeply
18:27:14 <markd2> * markd2 tries it on for sighs
18:27:36 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax hoots
18:27:40 <markd2> * markd2 hollers
18:27:59 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax offers Mark a cookie for some database advice
18:28:09 <markd2> sure
18:28:13 <markd2> * markd2 never turns down cookies
18:28:15 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax gives mark a cookie
18:28:29 <Psychephylax> ok, I need to have a hierarchy table
18:28:32 <Psychephylax> of who works for whom
18:28:42 <Psychephylax> my boss suggested I do it in a 2 column table
18:28:57 <ola> ola has joined #openacs
18:29:03 <markd2> have an id column, and a 'parent' id
18:29:11 <markd2> then look at 'CONNECT BY' in your oracle book
18:29:20 <Psychephylax> where one column stores numbers of the boss_id and the other is the employee id
18:29:20 <markd2> that'll turn it into a hierarchy
18:29:58 <davb> * davb hugs Oracle trees
18:30:15 <Psychephylax> you silly tree hugger you!
18:30:53 <davb> You haven;t looked at the postgresql solution to handling trees apparently.
18:30:57 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax reads about connect by
18:31:24 <markd2> figure if he's using Oracle, he can use connect by
18:32:31 <davb> yeah. connect by is cool. 
18:35:48 <Psychephylax> hmm
18:35:57 <Psychephylax> is connect by like a view?
18:36:02 <Psychephylax> or is it more like a table deal?
18:36:11 <markd2> it's a thing in the where clause (I think)
18:36:24 <Psychephylax> yeah
18:36:30 <rbm> It's like a join.
18:36:45 <Psychephylax> so it's more of a querying thing not a db setup thing
18:36:52 <rbm> yes
18:37:11 <Psychephylax> ok
18:37:24 <markd2> yeah
18:37:29 <Psychephylax> so how do i set up my table for this connect by is the info I'm looking for
18:37:45 <rbm> You don't have to setup anything special on the table structure
18:38:02 <markd2> you just Use It
18:38:11 <rbm> Take a look at the trees chapter of "SQL For Web Nerds": http://www.arsdigita.com/books/sql/
18:38:11 <Psychephylax> so how do I set up the table then
18:38:38 <rbm> You setup a table with CREATE TABLE, as usual. 
18:38:46 <Psychephylax> obviously
18:38:55 <markd2> do you have your big Oracle Complete Reference book?
18:38:58 <rbm> I guess I don't understand your questien thon.
18:38:59 <markd2> it's got a good chapter on connect by
18:38:59 <Psychephylax> but do the columns have to be set up in a special way?
18:39:18 <Psychephylax> Yes I do...on cd...so it's more of a small round big Oracle Complete Reference book
18:39:34 <Psychephylax> I was reading it :)
18:39:41 <markd2> heh
18:39:52 <markd2> I prefer dead trees references myself
18:40:01 <markd2> I can usually flip pages faster than it takes to search and render
18:41:23 <Psychephylax> ok
18:41:46 <Psychephylax> this is my question
18:42:07 <Psychephylax> I have to keep track of employee hierarchy
18:42:09 <Psychephylax> who works for whom
18:42:24 <Psychephylax> I need a data structure to hold this...naturally, a table comes to mind :)
18:43:01 <rbm> Psychephylax:  that's exactly the example on SQL For Web Nerds
18:43:35 <rbm> * rbm prefers dead tree references too
18:43:40 <Psychephylax> I'm looking through the book, you know what chapter it is in?
18:43:42 <rbm> * rbm hugs his books
18:44:26 <rbm> chapter 10 should jump to your attention.
18:44:48 <Psychephylax> i thought he was talking about green woody trees
18:44:49 <Psychephylax> lol
18:45:43 <Psychephylax> perrrrrfect
18:45:54 <Psychephylax> thanks Roberto
18:51:20 <rbm> np
18:51:29 <rbm> my Pay Pal address is rmello@cc.usu.edu :-)
18:51:38 <markd2> heh
18:51:47 <markd2> gee, maybe I better stop working for cookies
18:51:55 <markd2> or cooking for wookies
18:52:55 <Psychephylax> or mooking for lookies?
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18:59:41 <davb> How can I tell if CR keywords are dependent on a subsite. That is, if they belong to a subsite or are global sitewide.
19:00:23 <davb> I want to know if I create a keword if it will be applicable to the entire site or just a subsite.
19:00:34 <markd2> * markd2 has no clue
19:00:40 <markd2> I really need to carve out some time to get up to speed on this stuff
19:01:10 <davb> I wonder if the CR itself is subsite aware or if its up to the application to keep track itself.
19:01:34 <markd2> may be up to the application
19:01:45 <davb> yeah. hmmmmm...
19:01:54 <markd2> to do a little essay package that could be mounted multiple times, I had to do some hoop jumping to support that
19:02:25 <davb> But I would hope that keywords would be site wide. So that if I do a search it will find everything. I wonder exactly how subsite works... I gues I will read the docs.
19:02:53 <davb> What I am thinking is where or how there should be an interface to add keywords to the list of available keywords.
19:03:23 <davb> I just used psql and called the functions from there to add a couple of experimental keywords.
19:04:18 <davb> I think CMS has its own interface for that. 
19:04:36 <davb> and I noticed all the other packages that have categories have thier own keyword tables etc...
19:04:59 <davb> So it looks like noone ever addressed this because there aren't any other packages that used the CR keywords.
19:05:38 <davb> I suspect that most sites will use ETP or CMS or some other custom content management system.
19:06:14 <davb> * davb goes to the bboard...
19:06:57 <rbm> how do you re-indent something in vim?
19:14:59 <Psychephylax> with tab? :P
19:15:25 <Psychephylax> Do I have to write another package for a table I have?
19:15:33 <Psychephylax> For that user hierarchy
19:15:56 <markd2> not if you don't want to
19:16:05 <markd2> you're free to use whatever tables you want anywhere
19:16:14 <Psychephylax> hmmm
19:16:25 <Psychephylax> what are the advantages of writing a package for my table?
19:16:28 <rbm> * rbm heads out to class
19:16:32 <Psychephylax> heh
19:16:34 <Psychephylax> enjoy!
19:16:46 <davb> How will you update that table. Will it be related to the acs users?
19:17:09 <Psychephylax> update with sql statements probably
19:17:20 <Psychephylax> I'm not exactly sure why my boss wants it
19:18:58 <talli> talli has joined #openacs
19:19:11 <talli> hey guys... gotta question.
19:19:22 <Psychephylax> hi talli 
19:19:25 <Psychephylax> 42!
19:19:44 <talli> i'm going to write an article called OOP and the OpenACS tookit or How I learned to stop worrying and love AOLserver.
19:20:08 <markd2> heh
19:20:10 <talli> i was wondering whether anyone has any good literature i can collect to build my argument that eitehr:
19:20:29 <talli> a) OOP is not the best thing for the web or
19:21:33 <talli> b) the use of AOLserver takes some of the best pieces of both paradigms (code reuse, rapid prototyping and development and the maintenance of teh relational paradigm) 
19:21:41 <talli> any ideas?
19:22:02 <Psychephylax> i would go with a :)
19:22:17 <markd2> I kinda like b)
19:22:18 <talli> well, i think it will be a mix of a and b
19:22:47 <davb> hmmmm....
19:22:51 <markd2> OOP in the limited sense that acs4/tcl uses it is nice
19:22:51 <talli> i think b is a more diplomatic argument, a is a more code geek/code warrior argument
19:22:58 <davb> is OOP not the best thing for web development?
19:23:40 <talli> many people i've spoken with seem to think OOP in the web arena is like using a nuclear bomb to hammer in a nail
19:23:54 <markd2> but OOP in the acs./java is just overkill
19:23:54 <talli> but everyone has a different perspective
19:24:10 <talli> is it mark? really?
19:24:30 <markd2> from what little I've done with it so far, it seems frightfully complex
19:24:56 <davb> I don't think OOP is necessarily inappropriate. ie Zope, Manila
19:24:58 <talli> that's he sense i've gotten from looking a teh API docs - it seems very intericate
19:25:46 <talli> when i looked at that stuff i was struck by the sense that code should have a warning on it like action figure ...
19:26:06 <ola> talli: there was an interesting thread/flame war on this subject: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0000Dl
19:26:22 <talli> there are small pieces herein that children will swallow or stick up their nose
19:26:27 <talli> thanks ola
19:26:36 <talli> ah yes.
19:26:41 <ola> np
19:26:47 <talli> the infamous zope vs. openacs flameware
19:27:11 <talli> i don't want this to be a openacs vs acs-java piece
19:28:05 <talli> just something that explains what the openacs-tcl approach is, i.e. code reuse via AOLserver procs, maintenance of teh relational aradigm,e tc.
19:29:01 <davb> Aha, thats the thing. Manila and Zope have an Object database. 
19:30:15 <talli> well, an OODB is nice if all you're doing is serving content, which is what those systems were built for
19:30:47 <talli> but zope can be connected to an RDB if necessary, and it employs the same persistence thing that acs-java shoots for
19:31:47 <talli> thing is, that the system is built for an OODB adn it kind of has to cheat to connect to te RDB. 
19:31:55 <davb> I really have no knowledge of which is better or why. I suspect I need to accelerate my CompSci learning...
19:32:17 <talli> i think that ACS-java probably does a much better job than zope with RDBs
19:32:36 <davb> interesting.
19:34:13 <davb> I found this page which seems to have links to an incredible amount of articles on OOP
19:34:14 <davb> http://www.csis.pace.edu/~bergin/
19:34:15 <chump> B: http://www.csis.pace.edu/~bergin/ from davb
19:34:29 <davb> B:|Joseph Bergin, Ph.D.
19:34:30 <chump> titled item B
19:34:44 <davb> B: many papers,etc on Object Oriented Programming
19:34:44 <chump> commented item B
19:35:16 <davb> I doubt it will help talli though...
19:35:38 <talli> dave, if you begin reading about OOP, you'll quickly realize what the potential problem is
19:35:56 <talli> at least when linking it with a RDBMS which uses SQL
19:36:11 <davb> yeah I am going to read that stuff. 
19:36:22 <talli> it's actually quite clear and easy to understand
19:36:40 <talli> in an OOP system, you abstract the SQL quieries into objects
19:37:15 <talli> rather...
19:37:44 <talli> the sql queries are abstracted out of the program, and each object is responsible for a part of teh query
19:38:02 <davb> http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/oopbad.htm
19:38:02 <chump> C: http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/oopbad.htm from davb
19:38:15 <davb> C:|Object Oriented Programming Oversold
19:38:15 <chump> titled item C
19:38:25 <davb> C: OOP Myths Debunked
19:38:25 <chump> commented item C
19:38:26 <talli> yeah, check out the slashdot forum about that article
19:38:30 <talli> the guy is a little bananas
19:38:39 <davb> I didn't read it yet.
19:38:57 <markd2> the tablizer guy. heh
19:39:27 <talli> anyway, if you have a form, adn you want to do a complex query about, say, a CD's title, date and artist, you have to call the title, date and artist objects
19:39:43 <talli> each of these objects then need to perform the query which was assigned to them
19:40:04 <davb> really? isn't the CD the object? and those are properties?
19:40:22 <davb> http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Software/Object-Oriented/Criticism/
19:40:22 <chump> D: http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Software/Object-Oriented/Criticism/ from davb
19:40:43 <AaronSw> what is this OOP-bashing session or something?
19:40:48 <talli> this is nice because when you want to play with one of these objects (rewrite the code or something) all you have to do is change the associated object (title, date or artist)
19:40:57 <davb> D: Google Object Oriented Crticism directory
19:40:57 <chump> commented item D
19:41:16 <talli> however, you take a performance hit because you have to do 3 db queries rather than one long SQL satement
19:41:23 <talli> aaron: no it's not
19:41:30 <davb> Still nothing about web development.
19:41:38 <davb> that I can find anyway.
19:41:58 <davb> I can add some OOP is great links, but they are a little easier to find...
19:41:59 <talli> there will be :)
19:42:07 <AaronSw> D:Make that [Dmoz|http://dmoz.org/], not Google!
19:42:07 <chump> commented item D
19:42:33 <talli> anyway, that's teh problem Ben wsa referrign to in the Technical paper on Java
19:42:34 <davb> thanks AaronSw
19:42:58 <AaronSw> * AaronSw tries to start a Python wave... 
19:42:59 <talli> and it's the problem with Zope in a RDBMS system
19:43:05 <AaronSw> Python! Python! Python! :-)
19:43:12 <talli> python is different...
19:43:14 <AaronSw> Hmm, anyone used [incr Tcl] and AOLserver?
19:43:19 <talli> you're using python and aolserver, right?
19:43:24 <markd2> * markd2 beleives everything should be done in fortran
19:43:31 <talli> that could be the best of all worlds
19:43:32 <AaronSw> Yeah... altho my Zope friends keep berating me...
19:44:02 <Psychephylax> Aaron, get your connection fixed?
19:44:15 <AaronSw> I still don't know what the problem was.
19:44:18 <AaronSw> But it seems to have stopped.
19:44:36 <davb> It was probably the new virus hammering your ISPs network.
19:44:57 <AaronSw> That could definitely be...
19:45:31 <davb> quote from Google "The content of the Google directory is based on the Open Directory and is enhanced using Google's own technology.
19:45:36 <Psychephylax> You don't happen to have Zone Alarm on that computer would you?
19:45:53 <AaronSw> No, I have Mac OS X.
19:46:08 <AaronSw> and it's behind a NAT box, anyway
19:46:10 <Psychephylax> k
19:46:45 <AaronSw> Hmm, is there NIMDA stuff for AOLserver? The box on my network that'd get hit runs AOLserver.
19:47:55 <AaronSw> Oh, and for the record. Both OODBs and RDBs suck. Associational Databases, baby! :-)
19:47:59 <davb> http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0002nc&topic_id=11&topic=OpenACS
19:47:59 <chump> E: http://openacs.org/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0002nc&topic_id=11&topic=OpenACS from davb
19:48:19 <davb> E:|Nimba Worm thread on Openacs.org
19:48:19 <chump> titled item E
19:48:41 <AaronSw> Ahh, see. I'm get too much email to follow the AOLserver list anymore...
19:48:46 <davb> http://www.dbdebunk.com
19:48:46 <chump> F: http://www.dbdebunk.com from davb
19:48:57 <Psychephylax> dang
19:49:05 <davb> F: These guys say the relational model is still best, but the implementations suck.
19:49:05 <chump> commented item F
19:49:12 <Psychephylax> there's a Dell tech here ripping apart a notebook to fix it
19:49:13 <Psychephylax> lol
19:49:22 <Psychephylax> He just yanked the LCD off
19:52:09 <davb> http://www.associativemodelofdata.com/
19:52:10 <chump> G: http://www.associativemodelofdata.com/ from davb
19:52:18 <davb> G:|The Associative Model of Data
19:52:19 <chump> titled item G
19:52:41 <markd2> oy.  the first sentence is a turn-off
19:52:48 <AaronSw> G:It's basically the RDF model... which is why I like it.
19:52:48 <chump> commented item G
19:53:01 <davb> Thats a commercial site...
19:53:04 <markd2> especially since the internet advented quite a number of years ago
19:53:08 <AaronSw> G:He makes good points, not sure how good his implementation is.
19:53:08 <chump> commented item G
19:53:25 <AaronSw> So did binary relations, markd2. ;-)
19:53:27 <markd2> great, the white paper is a pdf
19:53:40 <AaronSw> He sends you a real book for free! :-)
19:53:56 <davb> http://www.firstsql.com/dbdebunk/qu041201.htm
19:53:56 <chump> H: http://www.firstsql.com/dbdebunk/qu041201.htm from davb
19:54:16 <davb> H: Associative Model of Data is quote of the week on dbdebunk.com  4/12/2001
19:54:17 <chump> commented item H
19:55:48 <markd2> great.  a two-column pdf
19:55:49 <markd2> * markd2 loves to scroll
19:56:58 <davb> ick.
19:57:39 <Psychephylax> ok
19:58:52 <Psychephylax> hmmm
19:59:34 <Psychephylax> say I have a page that lets you do 2 things, add/remove
19:59:57 <Psychephylax> Now, I want to make it so that when the user clicks on add he sees a page that's formatted one way, but if he clicks on remove it's formatted slightly different
20:00:04 <Psychephylax> How do I go about doing that>?
20:00:46 <davb> have two pages?
20:00:49 <Psychephylax> no
20:00:50 <Psychephylax> one page
20:01:23 <Psychephylax> basically, if they click on remove, I don't want the password field shown since there is no need to enter it
20:01:33 <markd2> pass a piece of form data to say if it's a remove or not, then sniff that in the tcl page or the template
20:01:40 <Psychephylax> ok
20:06:21 <davb> AHA! They have applied for a patent on the associative model...
20:06:36 <davb> Sounds like it won't be taking over anytime soon.
20:09:08 <ola> ola has quit
20:09:39 <AaronSw> patent? if they do the W3C will be all over them
20:10:01 <AaronSw> I doubt they'll be able to get anything worthwhile tho, there's so much prior art
20:10:19 <Psychephylax> ok, I got the pass thing
20:10:24 <Psychephylax> now I gotta figure out how to catch it
20:13:01 <davb> It says at the end of the whitepaper that they have tentatively applied for one. (Lazy Software.
20:13:11 <davb> ad_page_contract gets the form variables out.
20:14:19 <Psychephylax> hmmm
20:14:37 <Psychephylax> so if I'm passing something like add-remove?action=remove
20:14:59 <Psychephylax> I call ad_page_contract in my tcl and see if action is remove then blah else boo?
20:15:30 <davb> yes.
20:17:44 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax tries
20:17:58 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax gets distracted by the hot chick named Melanie passing by
20:18:13 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax gives Mark a cookie
20:18:24 <markd2> mmm.. cookie
20:18:30 <markd2> if I weren't already hitched, I'd ask to pass melanie along
20:20:03 <Psychephylax> Heh
20:20:09 <Psychephylax> I think she's hitched as well
20:20:23 <Psychephylax> or I wouldn't pass her along :)
20:20:31 <markd2> dang!
20:20:42 <markd2> you should at least post a picture online so we can oogle
20:22:12 <AaronSw> * AaronSw gets distracted
20:23:14 <davb> Anyone every checked out dbdebunk.org or any on Chris Dates or Fabian Pascal's writing on Relation DB?
20:23:43 <Psychephylax> i would post a picture but I'm prety sure I can't bring cameras here
20:25:18 <Psychephylax> hmmm
20:25:27 <Psychephylax> Ok, regarding that page_contract
20:25:31 <Psychephylax> there's different types of it?
20:30:24 <davb> if you are sending single values you don't need to specify the type
20:33:02 <davb> where's vinod?
20:33:14 <davb> We need good documentation on how to USE ad_page_contract.
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20:37:51 <Psychephylax> no such key: action
20:37:51 <Psychephylax>     while executing
20:37:51 <Psychephylax> "nsv_get ad_page_contract_filters $filter"
20:37:53 <Psychephylax> ?
20:38:27 <davb> let me see you ad_page_contract
20:39:38 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax apologizes for the flooding
20:39:41 <Psychephylax> ad_page_contract { 
20:39:41 <Psychephylax>         Removes a user from the system 
20:39:41 <Psychephylax>  
20:39:41 <Psychephylax>         @author Nick Blyumberg 
20:39:41 <Psychephylax>          
20:39:41 <Psychephylax> } { 
20:39:43 <Psychephylax>         action:action 
20:39:45 <Psychephylax> } -properties { 
20:39:47 <Psychephylax>         email_visible:onevalue 
20:39:49 <Psychephylax> } 
20:39:51 <Psychephylax>  
20:39:53 <Psychephylax> if { [string compare $action "add"] == 0 } { 
20:39:55 <Psychephylax>         set email_visible 1 
20:39:57 <Psychephylax> } else { 
20:39:59 <Psychephylax>         set email_visible 0 
20:40:01 <Psychephylax> } 
20:40:03 <Psychephylax>  
20:40:05 <Psychephylax> ad_return_template 
20:40:08 <davb> aha. get rid of the :action
20:40:31 <davb> action defines the variable. You are giving it a type of action which it is not. (doesn't exist)
20:40:42 <Psychephylax> * Psychephylax is impressed
20:40:50 <Psychephylax> it got rid of my e-mail thing
20:40:51 <Psychephylax> lol
20:41:25 <davb> after the : defines the type or actually defines a filter that checks for the type apparently.
20:41:33 <davb> time for me to go home.
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21:33:07 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] We hope services will be back up in about 10 minutes.  Apologies for the inconvenience.
21:36:09 <AaronSw> can remind me how to change Oracle's time zone?
21:37:54 <markd2> fedex
21:38:04 <markd2> failing that, set TZ in your environment
21:38:09 <AaronSw> really? wow.
21:38:16 <AaronSw> re fedex
21:38:26 <markd2> ship it to Botswana, it'll be in a different time zone!
21:38:48 <AaronSw> Yeah, but Oracle will still be in the same time zone.
21:38:57 <markd2> dang!
21:39:07 <markd2> you have foiled me for the last time, AaronSw
21:39:12 <markd2> * markd2 laughs maniacally
21:39:38 <AaronSw> so i'd set this TZ variable in the server's environment?
21:39:46 <markd2> yeah
21:39:58 <markd2> export TZ=GMT  or whatever
21:40:05 <AaronSw> ahh, cool
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21:41:29 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Services will be back up in a moment, accompanied by the usual splits.  Thanks.
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21:43:44 <ChanServ> ChanServ has changed the topic to: Welcome to the OpenACS Helpline | http://www.openacs.org/
21:43:47 <ChanServ> This channel is logged: http://www.blogspace.com/openacs/chatlogs/ and blogged: http://www.thedesignexperience.org/openacs/ircblog
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21:59:12 <AaronSw> hmm, the TZ thing doesn't seem to have worked.
22:04:04 <markd2> works in sqlplus
22:04:25 <markd2> maybe do an exec "echo $TZ" to see what your webserver is thinking it is
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22:38:43 <davb> Hi jerry
22:39:34 <jerryasher> Hey Dave!
22:55:10 <markd2> Norm!
22:55:46 <jerryasher> I was just telling Diana....
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23:47:40 <lilo> [GlobalNotice] Apologies for the intrusion.  If you have a bit of accounting and bookkeeping experience and would be willing to contribute a few hours per month to a community non-profit, please /msg me.  Thanks.